03/15/00

LC000315

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> IT WAS A FESTIVE EVENT, THE GRAND OPENING OF A CASINO IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS. BUT THE REAL STORY WAS THE MAN BEHIND THE SCENES.

SAUL GONZALEZ>> THE CASINO'S OWNER IS IRVING MOSKOWITZ, PHYSICIAN TURNED MULTI-MILLIONAIRE DEVELOPER, INTERNATIONALLY KNOWN PHILANTHROPIST AND ARGUABLY HAWAIIAN GARDENS' MOST CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED IN MANY WAYS. HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE PATRON, THE MAN WHO GIVES FAVORS AND, OF COURSE, EXACTS A HIGH PRICE FOR THOSE FAVORS.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, THE IDEA OF A MOTHER ABANDONING HER BABY MAY SHOCK MODERN SOCIETY, BUT A WELL-KNOWN ANTHROPOLOGIST SAYS IT'S NOTHING NEW.

SARAH HRDY>> FOUNDLING HOMES WERE BUILT WITH A KIND OF BARREL THAT YOU COULD COME -- YOU PUT YOUR BABY IN THE BARREL, RING A BELL, TURN IT AROUND AND THEN THE BABY IS PICKED UP ANONYMOUSLY ON THE OTHER SIDE.

WARREN>> THEY USED TO HANG IN MANSIONS AND THE WORLD'S FINEST MUSEUMS. SO HOW DO MASTERPIECES BY PICASSO AND THE FRENCH IMPRESSIONISTS WIND UP ON THE WALLS WHERE GAMBLERS ARE PLAYING THE SLOTS?

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING CORPORATIONS AND FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

GTE
A COMPANY COMMITTED TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXCELLENCE AND AN OPEN DIALOGUE AMONG ALL PEOPLE.


AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY.

VAL>> AND I'M VAL ZAVALA.

WARREN>> OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, CARDS, CASH AND THE HOLY LAND. IT CENTERS ON A CONTROVERSIAL CARD CLUB IN SOUTHEASTERN LOS ANGELES COUNTY AND HOW THE ACTIONS OF ITS OWNER ARE HAVING REPERCUSSIONS HALF A WORLD AWAY.

VAL>> SOME SAY DOCTOR IRVING MOSKOWITZ IS THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO THE TOWN OF HAWAIIAN GARDENS, BUT TO HIS CRITICS, HE'S A RIGHT-WING ZEALOT USING LOCAL PROFITS TO FINANCE EXTREMISTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. SAUL GONZALEZ HAS THIS REPORT.

SAUL>> WELCOME TO THE PARTY AND A NIGHT ONE DOWN-ON-ITS-LUCK SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TOWN HOPES WILL CHANGE ITS FORTUNES FOR GOOD. THIS IS THE GRAND OPENING OF THE HAWAIIAN GARDENS CASINO IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS, THE SOUTHLAND'S NEWEST CARD CLUB.

THE CASINO'S OWNER IS IRVING MOSKOWITZ, PHYSICIAN TURNED MULTI-MILLIONAIRE DEVELOPER, INTERNATIONALLY KNOWN PHILANTHROPIST AND ARGUABLY HAWAIIAN GARDENS' MOST CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED IN MANY WAYS. HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE PATRON, THE MAN WHO GIVES FAVORS AND, OF COURSE, EXACTS A HIGH PRICE FOR THOSE FAVORS.

SAUL>> MEET RABBI HAIM BELIAK, A MAN OF GOD WHO LEADS A GRASS ROOTS RELIGIOUS AND LABOR COALITION OPPOSED TO MOSKOWITZ'S ROLE IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> IT'S CLEAR THAT HE HAS DONE INDIVIDUAL GOOD THINGS IN THE CITY OF HAWAIIAN GARDENS, BUT WHEN ONE WEIGHS THE GOOD THAT HE HAS DONE VERSUS THE COST TO THE TAXPAYERS, IT'S CLEARLY A WIN-WIN SITUATION ONLY FOR MR. MOSKOWITZ. THE CITY IS ON THE LOSING END.

SAUL>> HAWAIIAN GARDENS ITSELF IS A MOSTLY WORKING CLASS AND LATINO COMMUNITY OF 15,000 RESIDENTS IN SOUTH LA COUNTY. IT'S A TOWN WHOSE POOR ECONOMIC HEALTH IS VISIBLE IN ITS NUMEROUS SHUTTERED STORES AND ABANDONED STRIP MALLS. YET IRVING MOSKOWITZ CASTS A LONG SHADOW IN THIS COMMUNITY. ALONG WITH HIS NEW CASINO, MOSKOWITZ FOUNDED THE COMMUNITY HOSPITAL, HAWAIIAN GARDENS' LARGEST EMPLOYER, AND HE OWNS A BINGO HALL THAT TAKES IN OVER $30 MILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY. AS A PHILANTHROPIST, HE'S FUNDED EVERYTHING FROM THE TOWN'S LITTLE LEAGUE TEAM TO THE COMMUNITY FOOD BANK. AND WHEN THE CITY ALMOST WENT BANKRUPT A FEW YEARS AGO, WHO DID IT TURN TO FOR A MULTI-MILLION LOAN? THAT'S RIGHT. IRVING MOSKOWITZ.

BERYL WEINER>> I THINK HE WANTS TO SEE THE COMMUNITY THRIVE. HE WANTS TO SEE THE COMMUNITY STAND ON ITS OWN FEET.

SAUL>> ATTORNEY BERYL WEINER HAS BEEN MOSKOWITZ'S FRIEND, CONFIDANTE AND LAWYER FOR OVER TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.

BERYL WEINER>> CERTAINLY THE HISTORY IN THE LAST TWENTY YEARS REFLECTS THAT NOBODY HAS DONE ANYTHING FOR THAT COMMUNITY IN TERMS OF PROVIDING ECONOMIC HELP OR ECONOMIC BENEFITS AS COMPARED TO WHAT DR. MOSKOWITZ HAS DONE.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> IN A SENSE, WHAT MOSKOWITZ ACHIEVED WAS THAT HE WAS ABLE TO GET THE CITY TO BECOME DEPENDENT ON HIM. WE WOULD ARGUE THAT, AT EVERY STAGE IN THIS PROCESS, HE HAS WORKED NOT TO ALLOW THE CITY TO HAVE ITS OWN INDEPENDENCE, BUT TO MAKE THEM MORE AND MORE DEPENDENT ON HIM.

SAUL>> THE RABBI CONTENDS THE NEW CASINO IS AN EXAMPLE OF MOSKOWITZ'S GRIP ON HAWAIIAN GARDENS.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> THE CITY HAS EXPENDED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BUILD THIS CASINO. IT IS THE SINGLE LARGEST INVESTOR IN A RICH MAN'S PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.

SAUL>> MOSKOWITZ'S CRITICS, WHO INCLUDE SEVERAL FORMER HAWAIIAN GARDENS ELECTED OFFICIALS, QUESTION WHY A COMMUNITY AS CASH-STRAPPED AS THIS ONE, USED OVER $5 MILLION DOLLARS IN PUBLIC REDEVELOPMENT FUNDS TO HELP BUILD MOSKOWITZ'S CARD CLUB. IT WAS MONEY SPENT A YEAR AFTER A 1996 STATE LAW WENT INTO EFFECT BARRING THE USE OF PUBLIC FUNDS ON CASINO PROJECTS. MOSKOWITZ INSISTS HIS CASINO IS LEGAL AND PREDICTS IT WILL EARN HAWAIIAN GARDENS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR IN LICENSING FEES. AS TO HIS CRITICS, HE SAYS HE PAYS THEM LITTLE ATTENTION.

IRVING MOSKOWITZ>> PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE FICKLE. THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NEGATIVE PEOPLE, BUT I DON'T WASTE MY TIME ON NEGATIVE PEOPLE. I FEEL THAT I WORK WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THE SUCCESS OF THIS CITY, NOT THOSE WHO WANT TO TEAR DOWN THE CITY FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH INTERESTS.

SAUL>> THE CONTROVERSY OVER IRVING MOSKOWITZ MAY AT FIRST APPEAR TO BE A SMALL TOWN STORY, ONE WITHOUT MUCH RELEVANCE BEYOND THE CITY LIMITS OF HAWAIIAN GARDENS. BUT HIS CRITICS SAY OTHERWISE. THEY ARGUE THAT THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MOSKOWITZ HAS EARNED THROUGH HIS GAMBLING OPERATIONS IN THIS TOWN HAS GONE TO CREATE TURMOIL IN ONE OF THE MOST FOUGHT-OVER PLACES ON EARTH, THE MIDDLE EAST.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> PART OF HIS ATTEMPT IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF PEACE AMONG THE PALESTINIANS AND THE ISRAELIS. CONSEQUENTLY, THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SPIRAL, TO CREATE AN EVEN LARGER CONFLAGRATION.

SAUL>> IF THE RABBI SOUNDS ALARMIST, LISTEN TO WHAT THE FORMER DEPUTY MAYOR OF JERUSALEM HAD TO SAY ABOUT MOSKOWITZ IN ONE TELEVISION INTERVIEW.

MEIRON BENVIENISTE>> THE MONEY BROUGHT IN IS LIKE FUEL ADDED ON THE FIRE THAT IS THREATENING TO ENGULF THE ENTIRE CITY OF JERUSALEM AND I DO NOT MINCE WORDS.

SAUL>> MOSKOWITZ'S OPPONENTS CONTEND THAT THE BUSINESSMAN USES MONEY EARNED IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS TO FUND RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS IN SETTLEMENTS FOR RIGHT-WING JEWISH EXTREMISTS IN JERUSALEM AND THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK. THESE ARE PROJECTS VIEWED BY MANY IN ISRAEL AS A MENACE TO A LASTING PEACE AGREEMENT IN THE REGION.

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> MOSKOWITZ'S ROLE HAS BEEN WITH THE FARTHEST FRINGE OF THE SETTLER MOVEMENT, WHICH ESSENTIALLY SEEKS TO MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THERE TO BE ANY OTHER POPULATION IN THE WEST BANK BUT JEWS. MOSKOWITZ'S INTENT IS EVENTUALLY TO MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT FOR ARABS TO LIVE IN THE WEST BANK THAT THEY WILL PACK UP AND GO AWAY.

BERYL WEINER>> OH, I THINK HE WANTS TO SEE PEACE IN ISRAEL JUST AS MUCH AS MOST JEWS DO. THE CONTROVERSY INVOLVES HOW IT'S TO COME ABOUT AND THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO IT. THERE ARE TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE VIEWS.

SAUL>> HOW IMPORTANT IS HAWAIIAN GARDENS TO MOSKOWITZ'S MID-EAST ACTIVITIES? CRITICS SAY HIS BINGO HALL ALONE HAS EARNED MILLIONS FROM MOSKOWITZ-CONTROLLED CHARITABLE FOUNDATIONS WHICH, IN TURN, SPEND THE MONEY ON PROJECTS HELPING MILITANT JEWISH GROUPS BACK IN ISRAEL.

SAUL>> DO YOU THINK HE WANTS TO SABOTAGE THE PEACE PROCESS?

RABBI HAIM BELIAK>> ABSOLUTELY. THERE'S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT HE SEEKS TO SABOTAGE THE PEACE PROCESS. THAT, FOR ME, IS THE MOST UNCONSCIONABLE PART OF THINGS.

SAUL>> MOSKOWITZ MAKES NO APOLOGIES FOR HOW HE SPENDS HIS MONEY IN ISRAEL.

IRVING MOSKOWITZ>> JUST LIKE YOU AND ANYBODY, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO INVOLVE YOURSELF WITH ANY LEGITIMATE ORGANIZATION TO SUPPORT THEM.

SAUL>> AND SO YOU WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE CAUSES YOU'VE SUPPORTED IN ISRAEL?

IRVING MOSKOWITZ>> THAT'S CORRECT.

SAUL>> CLOSER TO HOME, IRVING MOSKOWITZ IS COMING UNDER GREATER SCRUTINY. A STATE LEGISLATIVE AUDIT COMMITTEE HAS LAUNCHED A PROBE TO INVESTIGATE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE DEVELOPER AND HAWAIIAN GARDENS CITY GOVERNMENT. THAT INCLUDES THE USE OF MUNICIPAL FUNDS TO HELP BUILD MOSKOWITZ'S CARD CLUB. MOSKOWITZ'S ALLIES MAINTAIN HE HAS DONE NOTHING ILLEGAL AND VOW THAT HIS CRITICS WILL NOT HALT HIS WORK, EITHER IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS OR THE HOLY LAND.

BERYL WEINER>> I THINK THEY'RE MISGUIDED IN THE SENSE THAT, NUMBER ONE, THEY THINK THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS SOMEHOW GOING TO STOP DR. MOSKOWITZ. NUMBER TWO, THAT IT'S GOING TO STOP THE CITY OF HAWAIIAN GARDENS. DR. MOSKOWITZ IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO WHAT HE DOES IN ISRAEL, REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS. YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE THIS FANTASY THAT SOMEHOW THEY CAN STOP HIM. THEY WON'T. THEY CAN'T.

WARREN>> SO THE MONEY GOES FROM HAWAIIAN GARDENS TO ISRAEL. WHERE DOES DR. MOSKOWITZ LIVE?

SAUL>> DR. MOSKOWITZ HIMSELF LIVES IN MIAMI BEACH. A LONGTIME RESIDENCE IN MIAMI BEACH, ALTHOUGH HE STARTED A MEDICAL PRACTICE BACK IN CALIFORNIA IN THE 50'S. AND REALLY MADE HIS FIRST MONEY, LARGE MONEY, THROUGH THE HOSPITAL HE FOUNDED IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS BACK IN THE LATE 60'S.

VAL>> DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO ASK DR. MOSKOWITZ WHAT HIS VIEWS OF THE MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT ARE? DID HE SAY STRAIGHT OUT?

SAUL>> HIS VIEWS ARE, HE SIMPLY WANTS TO BE A GOOD FRIEND OF ISRAEL. HE SAYS HE'S A MAN OF CONVICTIONS. EVEN HIS ENEMIES SAY HE'S A MAN OF CONVICTIONS. HE'S NOT DOING THIS OUT OF PERSONAL GAIN, BUT BECAUSE HE BELIEVES THE GROUPS HE'S FUNDING ARE GOOD FOR THE JEWISH STATE. OF COURSE, HIS CRITICS SAY THE MAN IS JUST THROWING A LOT OF GASOLINE ON THE FIRE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND HE'S GETTING INVOLVED IN THINGS HE SHOULDN'T GET INVOLVED IN.

VAL>> HOW MUCH MONEY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? HIS FOUNDATIONS ARE --

SAUL>> MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT FIGURE, BUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. BY THE SAME TOKEN, HE ALSO FUNDS A LOT THAT'S GOOD HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A LOT THAT'S GOOD IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS. THE FOOD BANK, THE LITTLE LEAGUE TEAMS, EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, THINGS LIKE THAT, BACK IN HAWAIIAN GARDENS.

WARREN>> IN ANOTHER STORY, THIS ISN'T THE ONLY TOWN THAT IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON A SINGLE GAMBLING FACILITY.

SAUL>> I THINK REGIONALLY THAT'S ACTUALLY THE MORE RELEVANT STORY HERE. HOW THERE ARE THESE CARD CLUBS COMING INTO LITTLE TOWNS, TOWNS WHERE THEY HAVE NO OTHER FINANCIAL SUITORS, ECONOMIC SUITORS, AND SAY, "HEY, COME ON, HELP US OUT HERE." CRITICS SAY THOSE CARD CLUBS BECOME, IN A SENSE, THE REAL POWER IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. THE COMMUNITIES BECOME COMPANY TOWNS.

VAL>> INTERESTING REPORT. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT DR. MOSKOWITZ'S EXISTENCE UNTIL TODAY. THANK YOU, SAUL.

SAUL>> THANKS.

VAL>> TIME NOW FOR TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

THE NUMBER OF BABIES ABANDONED BY THEIR MOTHERS HAS NEARLY DOUBLED IN THE PAST DECADE. IN RESPONSE, A NUMBER OF STATES, INCLUDING CALIFORNIA, ARE CONSIDERING NEW LAWS THAT WOULD ALLOW MOTHERS TO LEAVE THEIR NEWBORNS AT EMERGENCY ROOMS OR HOSPITALS WITHOUT FEAR OF CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.

WARREN>> THE IDEA OF ABANDONING A BABY GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WE HOLD SACRED ABOUT THE IDEA OF MOTHERHOOD. THAT'S ONE OF THE CONCEPTS THAT ANTHROPOLOGIST, SARAH HRDY, EXPLORES IN HER RECENT BOOK, "MOTHER NATURE". HRDY SPOKE WITH VAL ABOUT THE MYTH OF THE IDEAL MOTHER.

VAL>> YOU HAVE TAKEN ON A HUGE TOPIC, MOTHERHOOD. YOU'VE LOOKED AT PRIMATES, YOU'VE LOOKED AT OTHER CULTURES AND YOU'VE FOUND THAT THERE IS NO SIMPLE DESCRIPTION OF WHAT A GOOD MOTHER IS, BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

SARAH HRDY>> YOU CAN BE A MOTHER ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

VAL>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DEAL WITH IS CHILDREN WHO ARE ABANDONED. MOTHERS WHO ABANDON THEIR CHILDREN. THIS, OF COURSE, IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE WORST THINGS A MOTHER COULD DO. TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT.

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, IT'S CONSIDERED, IN OUR SOCIETY, JUST INCONCEIVABLE THAT A MOTHER TO DO SOMETHING SO ABHORRENT IT MUST BE UNNATURAL. IT'S LED MANY PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS TO CONCLUDE, WELL, SOMEHOW MATERNAL INSTINCTS MUST HAVE BEEN LOST IN THE HUMAN SPECIES. BUT I DON'T THINK THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS. I THINK WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT MATERNAL COMMITMENT IS UNUSUALLY CONTINGENT ON CIRCUMSTANCES IN THE HUMAN SPECIES.

VAL>> SO YOU HAVE FOUND OTHER CULTURES AND EVEN IN PRIMATES WHERE ABANDONING CHILDREN IS COMMON OR FREQUENT?

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, THAT'S GOT TO BE THE INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE OTHER PRIMATES - MONKEYS AND APES - ARE ACTUALLY QUITE DEVOTED MOTHERS. ONE BABY AT A TIME SPACED FAR APART. ONCE IT'S BORN, THE MOTHER TAKES CARE OF IT, REALLY NO MATTER WHAT. HUMAN MOTHERS, THIS CLEARLY ISN'T THE CASE. THAT'S WHAT HAS LED PEOPLE TO ASSUME, WHEN THEY READ IN THE NEWSPAPER ABOUT SOME TEENAGE GIRL WHO'S LEFT HER BABY IN THE DUMPSTER, THEY THINK, OH, WE'VE JUST LOST OUR MATERNAL INSTINCTS. I MEAN, HOW COULD A WOMAN BEHAVE THIS WAY?

VAL>> BUT YOU'RE SAYING HUMAN MOTHERS ABANDON UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES OR IT'S CONTINGENT. WHAT ARE THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES?

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, OF COURSE, THOSE MOST AT RISK ARE OFTEN VERY YOUNG MOTHERS. BUT THE OTHER KEY CIRCUMSTANCE IS LACK OF SOCIAL SUPPORT. YOU KNOW, I SHOWED YOU THE PHOTOGRAPH IN THE BOOK JUST BEFORE WE CAME IN HERE OF THE INCUBATOR THAT'S OUT ON THE SIDEWALK IN BUDAPEST. THE REASON THAT IT'S THERE IS THAT, IN THE YEAR SINCE THE FALL OF COMMUNISM, BIRTH CONTROL HAS CEASED TO BE FREELY AVAILABLE. IN THE ABSENCE OF BIRTH CONTROL, THERE'S BEEN A SURGE IN UNWANTED CHILDREN AND THESE MOTHERS, WITHOUT OTHER OPTIONS, ARE ABANDONING THEIR BABIES. SO THEY PUT THE INCUBATOR OUT ON THE STREET TO PREVENT WHAT OCCASIONALLY HAPPENS OVER HERE, WHICH IS A BABY IN A DUMPSTER, A VERY, VERY BAD OUTCOME.

VAL>> AND TELL US ABOUT THAT OTHER ILLUSTRATION. THAT WAS THE TOUR, WAS IT? WHAT IS THAT?

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, THE NAPOLEONIC WHEEL, OR THE TOUR, IN EARLY EUROPE. THE HEYDAY OF THIS WAS IN 18TH CENTURY EUROPE. FOUNDLING HOMES WERE BUILT WITH A KIND OF BARREL THAT YOU COULD COME -- YOU PUT YOUR BABY IN THE BARREL, RING A BELL, TURN IT AROUND AND THEN THE BABY IS PICKED UP ANONYMOUSLY ON THE OTHER SIDE. BUT AFTER A WHILE, WHAT BEGAN AS A TRICKLE WOULD BECOME A FLOOD.

VAL>> YOU HAVE A CHAPTER ENTITLED "THREE MEN AND A BABY". WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

SARAH HRDY>> OH, THAT'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE CHAPTERS. IT'S, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE IS AWARE THAT MOST INFANT CARE IS DONE BY WOMEN AND THAT IT'S VERY HARD TO GET FATHERS INVOLVED IN INFANT CARE FOR LONGER THAN, SAY, FIVE MINUTES. IT CAN BE DONE.

VAL>> AND HOW IS THAT?

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, ONE OF THE TIPS, AND THIS IS PARTLY TONGUE IN CHEEK, BUT NOT COMPLETELY, IS FOR THE MOTHER, JUST AFTER SHE BRINGS THE BABY HOME FROM THE HOSPITAL, TO WEAR EARPLUGS. THERE'S BEEN WONDERFUL STUDIES DONE SHOWING THAT, WHEN A BABY CRIES, THE MOTHER AND THE FATHER ARE BOTH AS LIKELY TO RESPOND IF IT'S URGENT. A BABY IN DISTRESS, THE MOM AND THE DAD ARE BOTH THERE IN A FLASH. BUT A BABY WHO'S JUST UNCOMFORTABLE, WAKING UP FROM A NAP, STARTING TO BE CRANKY, MOTHER'S RESPONSE IS SO MUCH FASTER THAN FATHER'S. SO MOTHER PICKS UP THE BABY. WELL, WHAT HAPPENS? THE BABY GETS USED TO THE MOTHER. BUT IF THE DAD GETS IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING AND IS REALLY INVOLVED AND THE BABY IS AS ACCUSTOMED TO THE DAD AS TO THE MOM, HE'S REALLY JUST AS IMPORTANT A FIGURE OF SOOTHING.

VAL>> FINALLY, I WANT YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT NUCLEAR FAMILIES. WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE NUCLEAR FAMILY TODAY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MOTHER, FATHER, TWO KIDS, THE DOG, --

SARAH HRDY>> AND WE ASSUME THAT'S NORMAL. AND WE ASSUME THIS IS THE BASIC HUMAN CONDITION. SO WHEN WE SEE SOMETHING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE INNER CITIES WHERE THERE'S A WOMAN AND SHE DOESN'T QUITE KNOW WHO THE DAD IS, THERE'S SEVERAL BOYFRIENDS --

VAL>> RIGHT. WE'RE VERY JUDGMENTAL AGAINST THAT.

SARAH HRDY>> VERY JUDGMENTAL. DEPENDING HEAVILY ON HER MOTHER, GRANDMA, TO HELP REAR THE KIDS AND WE SAY, OH, THIS IS THE BREAKDOWN OF THE HUMAN FAMILY. IT'S DUE TO BIRTH CONTROL. IT'S DUE TO FEMINISM. IT'S DUE TO WHATEVER.

VAL>> PROMISCUITY OR NOT GETTING MARRIED.

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, I THINK IF WE REALLY LOOK AT IT ACROSS TIME AND ACROSS HUMAN CULTURES, WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS IS JUST ONE PERMUTATION OF THE HUMAN FAMILY. LOOKED AT THIS WAY, THE MONOGAMOUS NUCLEAR FAMILY IS A LUXURY. THERE IS NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT HAVING A MOTHER AND A FATHER COMMITTED TO THE KIDS IS BETTER FOR THE CHILDREN. THIS IS A COMPROMISE THAT THE MOTHER AND THE FATHER MAKE THAT CHILDREN WIN. IT'S WHAT I CALL MARRIAGE IN THE BOOK IN ANOTHER SECTION THAT'S A COMPROMISE THAT CHILDREN WIN AND THAT'S THE MONOGAMOUS NUCLEAR FAMILY.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE SAYING A NUCLEAR FAMILY IS A GOOD THING, BUT IT'S A FAIRLY RECENT THING AND IT'S NOT WHAT WE WOULD CALL INHERENT IN OUR GENES --

SARAH HRDY>> EXACTLY.

VAL>> -- OR OUR SPECIES?

SARAH HRDY>> YES. THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE.

VAL>> AND THAT, FOR THE MAJORITY OF HUMANKIND, CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP IN NON-NUCLEAR SETTINGS.

SARAH HRDY>> WELL, EXTENDED FAMILIES. WE SEE THIS TODAY. THE ROLE THAT GRANDMOTHERS PLAY AND ONE OF THE GREAT TRAGEDIES, I THINK, IN AMERICAN SOCIETY RIGHT NOW IS A DEARTH OF GRANDPARENTS AND A DEARTH OF INVOLVEMENT BY GRANDPARENTS. GRANDPARENTS OFTEN LIVE VERY FAR AWAY.

VAL>> VERY GOOD. THANK YOU FOR SHEDDING SOME LIGHT ON OUR OWN PATTERNS.

SARAH HRDY>> THANK YOU, VAL. I ENJOYED IT.

VAL>> EARPLUGS WILL BE THE LATEST FAD FOR BABY SHOWER GIFTS. THE NAME OF THE BOOK, AGAIN, "MOTHER NATURE".

WARREN>> TIME FOR A CHANGE OF PACE. DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A PERSON WITH GOOD TASTE, ABLE TO TELL THE HIGH ART FROM THE LOW? WELL, AT ONE TIME, THAT ABILITY WOULD HAVE DETERMINED YOUR PLACE IN THE CULTURAL HIERARCHY. NOT ANYMORE.

VAL>> TODAY WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF "NO BROW". WHAT IS NO BROW? WE FIND OUT IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> THINK OF POP STAR, ELTON JOHN, SINGING AT THE STATE FUNERAL FOR BRITAIN'S ROYAL PRINCESS DIANA IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY, OR THE THREE TENORS ON TOUR LIKE ROCK STARS. WELL, BOTH ARE PERFECT EXAMPLES OF NO BROW, AN OBLITERATION OF THE LINE THAT USED TO SEPARATE HIGH BROW AND LOW BROW.

WARREN>> HERE WITH MORE IS NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER, JOHN SEABROOK. HE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE PHRASE AND THE BOOK, "NO BROW". GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

JOHN SEABROOK>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

WARREN>> OKAY. HIGH BROW, LOW BROW, NO BROW. LET'S DEFINE SOME TERMS.

JOHN SEABROOK>> WELL, HIGH BROW AND LOW BROW ARE AMERICAN WORDS. THEY WERE USED FOR THIS VERY UNIQUELY AMERICAN PURPOSE, WHICH IS TO CREATE CLASS OUT OF CULTURE SO THAT PEOPLE WHO WERE THE HIGH BROWS HAD THE MOST TASTE. THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE MIDDLE BROWS HAD THE MIDDLE TASTE AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE LOW BROWS HAD THE LEAST TASTE. SO INSTEAD OF A SOCIAL HIERARCHY, YOU'VE GOT A TASTE-BASED HIERARCHY. THAT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE FAIR THAN THE EUROPEAN SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T NECESSARILY BORN INTO IT. YOU COULD BE EDUCATED AND ACQUIRE THIS TASTE, BUT IT DID SERVE TO SET PEOPLE APART. I THINK IT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO BE POLITICALLY QUITE EGALITARIAN.

WARREN>> OKAY, BUT NOW WE HAVE NO BROWS, SO WHAT HAPPENED TO IT?

JOHN SEABROOK>> WELL, IT DISAPPEARED FOR TWO REASONS. ONE WAS THAT TASTE WHICH USED TO BE THIS ENDOWMENT THAT ONLY A FEW COULD POSSESS BEGAN TO GET KNOCKED OFF AND MASS MARKETED BY PEOPLE LIKE RALPH LAUREN AND MARTHA STEWART AND IKEA. SO IT SUDDENLY BECAME AVAILABLE TO THE MASSES. I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. THEN THE HIGH BROWS BEGAN TO REALIZE WHAT WAS GOING IN AND THEY BEGAN TO LOOK TOWARD THE MASS CULTURE AS A WAY OF KIND OF STAYING ALIVE AND STAYING RELEVANT. SO YOU SEE THINGS LIKE ELTON JOHN IN WESTMINSTER ABBEY.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT AN EXAMPLE THAT YOU POINT OUT IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT NO BROW. IT'S THOSE FRENCH IMPRESSIONISTS AND PICASSO IN LAS VEGAS.

JOHN SEABROOK>> RIGHT.

VAL>> HERE'S SOME VIDEO OF THAT. SO WE'RE SEEING MASTERPIECES THAT REALLY IN MANY WAYS SHOULD BELONG IN THE LOUVRE --

JOHN SEABROOK>> RIGHT.

VAL>> -- AND THEY'RE IN LAS VEGAS.

JOHN SEABROOK>> THEY'RE WITH THE HIGH ROLLERS. YOU GOT THE HIGH ART WITH THE HIGH ROLLERS. YOU GOT TO SPEND $50,000 AT THE CRAPS TABLE TO GET WITH THESE PAINTINGS, BUT YES.

VAL>> BUT WHAT IS THIS SAYING? IS THIS SAYING THAT MONEY CAN BUY ANYTHING, INCLUDING TASTE?

JOHN SEABROOK>> I THINK IT'S SAYING THAT THE OLD NOTION THAT HIGH ART WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS SET APART FROM MASS CULTURE, AND THAT WAS PART OF THE WAY IT GOT ITS STATUS, NO LONGER EXISTS. SO NOW YOU GO TO A MUSEUM AND YOU MIGHT SEE A STAR WARS EXHIBIT OR YOU MIGHT SEE THE MOTORCYCLE SHOW AT THE GUGGENHEIM. THAT'S A WAY OF MUSEUMS KIND OF REACHING OUT TO THE POPULAR CULTURE TO GET STATUS WHEREAS BEFORE THEY KEPT THEMSELVES APART FROM THE POPULAR CULTURE BY WAY OF GETTING STATUS.

WARREN>> HASN'T IT ALWAYS BEEN, THOUGH, A QUESTION OF MONEY AND ISN'T IT STILL A QUESTION OF MONEY? AS YOU SAY, YOU CAN'T GET IN TO SEE THE GOOD STUFF IN LAS VEGAS IF YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT OF BUCKS.

JOHN SEABROOK>> THAT'S RIGHT. I THINK TASTE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A KIND OF POWER MASQUERADING AS COMMON SENSE. BUT IT DID KIND OF GLOSS THIS HARSHER REALITY OF MONEY IN A WAY SO THAT WE WEREN'T REALLY JUST TALKING ABOUT MONEY. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TASTE AND VALUES AND QUALITY. WHEN YOU STRIP THAT AWAY, YOU ARE FACED WITH A KIND OF BONES OF WHAT UNDERLIES THAT STRUCTURE, AND I DO THINK IT'S KIND OF ALL ABOUT MONEY. BUT AT LEAST IT'S HONEST.

WARREN>> I WANT TO LOOK AT ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU MEAN. WE HAVE HERE A MUSIC VIDEO DIRECTED BY A VERY HIGH QUALITY MUSIC DIRECTOR. TELL US WHO'S WORK WE'RE LOOKING AT AND WHY IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF NOW BROW.

JOHN SEABROOK>> THIS IS A GUS VAN SANT VIDEO. GUS VAN SANT, WHO IS AN ARTIST, A SORT OF A HIGH ART FILMMAKER, IS MAKING A LOW BROW OR, YOU KNOW, POP CULTURE COMMODITY. A VIDEO WITH A COUPLE OF BOYS AND, YOU KNOW, APPEALING TO SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD GIRLS. I THINK THIS IS INTERESTING BECAUSE, TWENTY YEARS AGO, GUS VAN SANT WOULD HAVE LOST STATUS AND MAYBE EVEN BEEN CALLED A SELL-OUT FOR DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS. BUT TODAY HE ACTUALLY SEEMS TO GAIN STATUS AND NO ONE CALLS HIM A SELL-OUT AND HE'S ABLE TO DO BOTH THE LOW AND THE HIGH AND, YOU KNOW, GO BACK AND FORTH.

WARREN>> WELL, ISN'T THIS DEMOCRACY AT WORK?

JOHN SEABROOK>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING FOR INDIVIDUALS BECAUSE IT DOES GIVE YOU MORE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. YOU CAN GO TO THE POP SHOW, YOU CAN GO TO THE OPERA AND NO ONE'S GOING TO CAST ASPERSIONS ON YOU EITHER WAY. I THINK, FOR SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, IT'S HARDER TO CREATE STANDARDS. SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, AN ECHELON OF HIGH BROWS AND AN ECHELON OF MIDDLE --

WARREN>> WHY DO WE WANT AN ECHELON OF HIGH BROWS AND WHY DO WE WANT TO HAVE ECHELONS AT ALL?

JOHN SEABROOK>> BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL COMFORTABLE. PEOPLE LIKE TO KNOW WHERE THEY STAND --

WARREN>> YOU TO FEEL COMFORTABLE. YOU WANT TO BE IN YOUR ECHELON.

JOHN SEABROOK>> WELL, I ACTUALLY THINK I'VE LOST MY ECHELON. I THINK I STARTED UP HERE AND I'VE BEEN FALLING RAPIDLY.

VAL>> BUT THERE'S DEFINITELY A SENSE -- I'LL GO AHEAD AND SAY THE MORE CULTURED ECHELON IN THE SOCIETY -- THAT THIS SOCIETY IS BECOMING TACKY AND RUDE AND UNCIVILIZED. HOW DOES --

JOHN SEABROOK>> IT'S TRUE. IT IS BECOMING TACKY AND RUDE AND UNCIVILIZED, BUT IT'S ALSO BECOMING MORE CULTURED, MORE EDUCATED AND MORE AWARE OF VALUES. "BEOWULF" IS THE NUMBER THREE BEST-SELLING BOOK ON THE AMAZON.COM LIST, SO WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY DOES THAT --

VAL>> HOW IS THAT?

JOHN SEABROOK>> AND AT THE SAME TIME, "ROCK" IS THE NUMBER ONE BEST-SELLING BOOK. YOU KNOW, ROCK, THE PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER.

WARREN>> WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THE BOOK IS "NO BROW" AND YOU'RE THE ONLY GUY I'VE EVER KNOWN THAT LOST HIS ECHELON.

VAL>> VERY INTERESTING.

JOHN SEABROOK>> WELL, I MAY GET IT BACK FROM THIS SHOW.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, JOHN SEABROOK.

JOHN SEABROOK>> THANKS A LOT.

VAL>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW, VOTERS SAID "YES" TO EXPANDED INDIAN GAMBLING. CARD ROOMS AND RACETRACKS SAID "OH, NO" AND DONALD TRUMP SAID "OKAY".

>> WE'VE SUFFERED A LONG TIME AND I THINK IN A SMALL WAY THIS IS ONE WAY FOR US TO REACH THAT LEVEL OF PARITY WITH OTHERS THAT WASN'T THERE BEFORE. SO IF IT TAKES A MATTER OF A MONOPOLY FOR A WHILE, SURE.

WARREN>> THAT'S COMING UP TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

TOMORROW ON WHICH WAY LA, A FAMILIAR SUBJECT. FIRST, NEVADA GAMBLERS, NOW THE DONALD, WANT TO INVEST IN CALIFORNIA'S CASINOS. WILL PROP 1A TURN INDIAN RESERVATIONS INTO LAS VEGAS OR ATLANTIC CITY? THAT'S TOMORROW.

KCRW 89.9 FM, WHICH WAY LA
WEEKDAYS FROM 1-2 P.M.
REBROADCAST AT 7:00 P.M.

VAL>> FOR ALL OF US "HIGH BROWS" HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A GREAT EVENING. SEE YOU TOMORROW.

WARREN>> SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

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