03/21/00

LC000321

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

IS IT FREE SPEECH OR DEFAMATION? SHOULD DR. LAURA'S STATEMENTS ABOUT GAYS KEEP HER OFF THE TUBE?

>> JOAN GARRY>> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EXPRESSING AN OPPOSING VIEWPOINT AND USING WORDS LIKE "MISTAKE" AND "ERROR" AND "DEVIANCY" AND ALIGNING HOMOSEXUALITY WITH BESTIALITY AND PEDOPHILIA. THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE BLATANTLY UNACCEPTABLE.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, HE WAS IN REFORM SCHOOL AT ELEVEN, SAN QUENTIN'S YOUNGEST PRISONER AT SEVENTEEN AND, FIVE DECADES LATER, HE'S A CELEBRATED NOVELIST, ACTOR AND SCREENWRITER. WE TALK WITH THE EXTRAORDINARY EDWARD BUNKER.

AND THINK THERE'S NO CONTEMPORARY ART AT THE GETTY? THINK AGAIN. A NEW EXHIBIT OF WORKS BY LA ARTISTS CHALLENGES THE CONCEPT OF ART FROM THE PAST AND FROM THE PRESENT.

THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR TUESDAY, MARCH 21, 2000.

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VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA. WARREN OLNEY IS OFF. HE'LL BE BACK ON THURSDAY.

OUR TOP STORY, FREE SPEECH VERSUS PERSONAL BELIEFS. IT'S USUALLY HELD THAT FREE SPEECH STOPS SHORT OF SHOUTING FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATER, BUT WHAT ABOUT SPEECH THAT EXPRESSES NEGATIVE VIEWS OF AN ENTIRE SEGMENT OF SOCIETY? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CONTROVERSY BETWEEN RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER, AND GAY ACTIVISTS OUTRAGED BY HER CRITICISM OF HOMOSEXUALITY. SO OUTRAGED THAT THEY WANT TO PULL THE PLUG ON HER PLANS FOR A TELEVISION SHOW. GAY YEE HAS THIS REPORT.

>> NOW, FROM THE SNET OAKDALE THEATRE IN WALLINGFORD, CONNECTICUT, RADIO'S LEADING TALK SHOW HOST, DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER.

GAY>> HER NAME IS LAURA SCHLESSINGER. DR. LAURA TO MOST FOLKS. HER ADVICE ON ETHICS AND MORALITY HAS MADE HER THE MOST LISTENED TO TALK SHOW HOST ON RADIO, MUSCLING OUT PERSONALITIES LIKE HOWARD STERN AND RUSH LIMBAUGH. IN THE PAST, SHE'S APPEARED ON TELEVISION SPECIALS LIKE THIS PBS HIT, "DR. LAURA'S TEN COMMANDMENTS". BUT HER LATEST TV CROSSOVER, AN UPCOMING DAYTIME SHOW PRODUCED OUT OF PARAMOUNT, IS PUTTING HER ON HIT LISTS.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY>> LAST NIGHT, THE WEST HOLLYWOOD CITY COUNCIL PASSED A RESOLUTION ASKING PARAMOUNT TO DROP ITS PLANS FOR THE DR. LAURA SHOW, CLAIMING IT WOULD JUST GIVE HER A FORUM TO SPEW HATRED AGAINST GAYS AND LESBIANS.

LAURA SCHLESSINGER>> WHO SAID YOU SHOULD ONLY DEAL WITH THAT WHICH IS COMFORTABLE OR SERVES YOU? IT DOESN'T SAY THAT IN THE COMMANDMENTS.

GAY>> EVER SINCE DR. LAURA EMBRACED ORTHODOX JUDAISM A FEW YEARS AGO, SHE'S BEEN A HARSH CRITIC OF HOMOSEXUALITY, OFTEN REFERRING TO GAYS AS "DEVIANT" OR "BIOLOGICAL ERRORS".

JOAN GARRY>> WE'RE ALSO HERE TO SEND A VERY STRONG MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS GATE, A MESSAGE THAT THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT PROFITS. IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE.

GAY>> HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE SUPPORTING THE GAY AND LESBIAN COMMUNITY SHOWED UP AT PARAMOUNT TODAY DEMANDING THAT THE STUDIO PULL THE PLUG ON THE SHOW.

>> THIS IS NOT ABOUT CONTROVERSY. THIS IS ABOUT HATRED. THIS IS ABOUT YELLING FIRE IN A THEATER WHERE THERE IS NO FIRE. DR. LAURA, OR, EXCUSE ME, LAURA HAS SAID THAT GAYS AND LESBIANS ARE BIOLOGICAL ERRORS. WHERE DOES SHE FIND THE SUPPORT TO BACK THAT UP? WHERE DOES SHE FIND THE SCIENTIFIC SUPPORT TO BACK THAT UP? THERE IS NONE.

>> I THINK IT STEPS OVER THE LINE HERE IN TERMS OF GOOD TASTE AND HUMAN KINDNESS. I THINK THAT, BY DEMEANING A CLASS, IT CREATES THE NOTION THAT PERHAPS THEY'RE SOMEHOW EXPENDABLE.

GAY>> BUT DR. LAURA HAD HER DEFENDERS WHO STAGED A COUNTER DEMONSTRATION ACROSS THE STREET.

>> THEY WANT US TO BE TOLERANT OF THEIR LIFESTYLE, BUT THEY'RE INTOLERANT OF WHAT WE DO. EXAMPLE WITH DR. LAURA. THEY DON'T WANT HER TO HAVE A SHOW, BUT THEY WANT EVERYBODY TO AGREE WITH WHAT THEY DO.

>> I BELIEVE THIS IS NOT ABOUT BIGOTRY OR INTOLERANCE OR ANYTHING. IT'S SIMPLY A RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH. DR. LAURA -- YOU KNOW, SHE'S VERY POPULAR, SHE'S ONE OF THE NATION'S TOP TALK SHOW HOSTS. SHE ALREADY HAS FREEDOM OF SPEECH OVER THE RADIO. WHY SHOULDN'T SHE HAVE IT OVER THE TELEVISION NETWORKS AS WELL?

GAY>> THE PARAMOUNT TELEVISION GROUP SAYS IT RECOGNIZES EVERY INDIVIDUAL'S RIGHT TO HAVE AND EXPRESS HIS OR HER OWN POINT OF VIEW AND THAT "WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF SUPPORT FOR THE CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS OF ALL PEOPLE."

JOAN GARRY>> THIS IS AN ISSUE ABOUT DEFAMATION. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EXPRESSING AN OPPOSING VIEWPOINT AND USING WORDS LIKE "MISTAKE" AND "ERROR" AND "DEVIANCY" AND ALIGNING HOMOSEXUALITY WITH BESTIALITY AND PEDOPHILIA. THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE BLATANTLY UNACCEPTABLE. FOR ME, WHEN I LOOK AT THIS CROWED GATHERED HERE THIS MORNING, I FEEL LIKE PARAMOUNT HAS TO STAND UP AND TAKE NOTICE. THEY HAVE TO EXERT SOME CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY HERE.

GAY>> PROTESTORS CLAIM PARAMOUNT IS HIDING BEHIND A FREE SPEECH SMOKE SCREEN, BUT ONE ATTORNEY SAYS THE FIRST AMENDMENT DOES APPLY - TO BOTH SIDES.

DOUGLAS MIRELL>> THE FIRST AMENDMENT WORKS BOTH WAYS. THOSE WHO OPPOSE HER RIGHT TO SPEAK HAVE A RIGHT UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT TO MAKE THOSE FEELINGS KNOWN. DR. LAURA, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAS A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT SHE BELIEVES.

GAY>> DOUG MIRELL IS A FIRST AMENDMENT ATTORNEY WITH CLIENTS IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY. HE SAYS THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT ENSURES THE DEBATE OCCURS, BUT IT DOESN'T DICTATE HOW THE DEBATE WILL TURN OUT. IN FACT, HE SAYS TODAY'S DEMONSTRATION COULD ACTUALLY BACKFIRE.

DOUGLAS MIRELL>> IT COULD EASILY BACKFIRE ON THE PROTESTORS WHO ARE SEEKING TO PREVENT THE SHOW FROM BEING AIRED IF WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT PEOPLE TUNE IN TO A PROGRAM THAT THEY HADN'T HEARD ABOUT BEFORE OR MIGHT IN FACT BE INTERESTED IN, BUT HADN'T KNOWN ABOUT. SO THERE'S A DANGER ON THE PART OF THE PROTESTORS IN THAT YOU WILL INCREASE THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE SHOW WILL GENERATE HIGHER RATINGS, AT LEAST INITIALLY, THAN IT MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE HAD AND THAT IT MAY IN FACT STAY ON THE AIR LONGER THAN IT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICITY THAT HAS BEEN GENERATED.

GAY>> AND, IN TRUTH, MIRELL SAYS STUDIOS ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE GUIDED BY THE CONSTITUTION THAN THEY ARE ECONOMICS. IN THE BROADCAST INDUSTRY, THAT BOILS DOWN TO RATINGS.

DOUGLAS MIRELL>> IT'S A REALITY OF THE MARKETPLACE IN THIS INDUSTRY THAT, IF YOU HAVE A PROGRAM WHICH IS WATCHED BY PEOPLE, IT WILL FIND A PLACE SOMEWHERE WHERE IT'S GOING TO BE AIRED. IF YOU HAVE A PROGRAM THAT'S NOT LIKELY TO BE WATCHED, THE PROGRAM'S ULTIMATELY GOING TO BE PULLED FROM THE AIRWAVES, IF IT EVER MAKES IT ONTO THE AIR AT ALL.

JOAN GARRY>> WE WILL NOT LET HER.

GAY>> AND IF INDEED THE MARKETPLACE DOES DECIDE, HISTORY MAY WORK IN FAVOR OF THE DEMONSTRATORS. MIRELL SAYS HISTORICALLY TALK SHOWS FEATURING CONSERVATIVE HOSTS HAVE HAD A SHORT SHELF LIFE.

DOUGLAS MIRELL>> THOSE KINDS OF PROGRAMS DO NOT TYPICALLY LAST FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN SHOWN IN MARKETS LIKE LOS ANGELES, THEY HAVE EITHER BEEN CONFINED TO VERY RESTRICTED MARKETS LIKE THE WALLY GEORGE, FOR INSTANCE, OR HAVE NOT LASTED FOR A GREAT LENGTH OF TIME LIKE THE RUSH LIMBAUGH TELEVISION PROGRAM OR GEORGE PUTNAM WHEN HE WAS DOING A TALK SHOW.

GAY>> BUT JOAN GARRY WOULD PREFER THAT THE PROGRAM NEVER HIT AIR.

JOAN GARRY>> BECAUSE WORDS HAVE IMPACT AND LAURA SCHLESSINGER'S WORDS ARE GIVING PERMISSION TO PUT AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE IN A REALLY SECOND-CLASS PLACE AND THAT'S JUST SIMPLY NOT OKAY.

GAY>> DR LAURA, MEANTIME, DID RELEASE A STATEMENT OF HER OWN, SAYING, "REGRETTABLY, SOME OF THE WORDS I'VE USED HAVE HURT SOME PEOPLE AND I AM SORRY FOR THAT. WORDS THAT I HAVE USED IN A CLINICAL CONTEXT WERE NOT MEANT TO CHARACTERIZE HOMOSEXUAL INDIVIDUALS OR ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DISPARAGE HOMOSEXUALS."

VAL>> BOY, GAY, THIS IS AN INTENSE FIGHT.

GAY>> BIG FIGHT.

VAL>> BUT WHERE DOES IT STAND? WHAT ARE THE CHANCES THAT THE PLANS FOR THE PROGRAM WOULD ACTUALLY BE STOPPED OR PULLED?

GAY>> WELL, PARAMOUNT'S NOT LETTING ON AND NOT SAYING, BUT THEY ARE PRETTY WELL COMMITTED. THEY HAVE SOLD THE SHOW TO 160 STATIONS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY --

VAL>> OH, REALLY?

GAY>> -- LOOKING AT A COVERAGE OF ABOUT 90 PERCENT OF THE NATION.

VAL>> IT'S ALREADY SOLD?

GAY>> IT'S ALREADY SOLD. IT'S SCHEDULED TO BE ON THE AIR THIS SEPTEMBER.

VAL>> I THINK IF IT WERE IN LA, IT WOULD BE ON KCBS.

GAY>> RIGHT.

VAL>> NOW, WHY DO THEY FEEL SO ADAMANT? AFTER ALL, DR. LAURA'S VIEWS HAVE BEEN ON RADIO AND NOW I WONDER WHY TV IS THE LINE THAT THEY DON'T WANT CROSSED?

GAY>> IT IS A BROADER AUDIENCE. I THINK THE RADIO AUDIENCE IS A NARROWER BAND OF POPULATION AND THE FACT THAT SOME OF THESE THOUGHTS AND VIEWPOINTS ARE GETTING OUT AND PERHAPS INFLUENCING PEOPLE. THEY'RE CONCERNED.

VAL>> BUT, AGAIN, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY LEGAL RIGHT TO FILE A LAWSUIT OR AN INJUNCTION?

GAY>> AT THIS POINT, ACCORDING TO OUR ATTORNEY, HE DOESN'T BELIEVE SO BECAUSE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT. BUT THE OTHER THING IS, THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE IT UP A NOTCH. THEY'RE SAYING THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THEIR FIGHT, OF A SIX, SEVEN MONTH FIGHT. THEY ARE OPENING THE GATE AND THEY WILL ACTUALLY GO TO DIFFERENT MARKETS AND REALLY PUSH. SO FAR, THEY'VE BEEN QUITE INFLUENTIAL. APPARENTLY, THEY HAVE A WEBSITE, "STOP DR. LAURA", AND THEY HAD THREE MILLION HITS OVER THIS LAST WEEKEND. SO THEY'VE HAD A STRONG INFLUENCE.

VAL>> FIRST BATTLE IN A LARGER WAR.

GAY>> RIGHT.

VAL>> GAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE TURN NOW TO TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

EDWARD BUNKER WAS BORN IN HOLLYWOOD SIXTY-FIVE YEARS AGO. HIS MOTHER SOON DESERTED THE FAMILY, HIS FATHER WAS AN ALCOHOLIC AND EDWARD WAS THROWN INTO FOSTER HOMES AT THE AGE OF FOUR. HE REBELLED, DEALT DRUGS, CONNED PEOPLE, ROBBED A LIQUOR STORE AND EVENTUALLY STABBED A GUARD. BY AGE SEVENTEEN, EDWARD WAS SAN QUENTIN'S YOUNGEST INMATE EVER. OVER HIS LIFETIME, HE WOULD SPEND EIGHTEEN YEARS BEHIND BARS, BUT IT WAS IN PRISON THAT BUNKER DISCOVERED FAULKNER, HEMINGWAY, DOSTOEVSKI AND OTHER GREAT WRITERS AND WRITING, IT TURNED OUT, WOULD BE HIS OWN PERSONAL REDEMPTION. JOINING US NOW IS EDWARD BUNKER.

YOU REALLY HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY TO TELL. WHAT WAS THE EVENT THAT REALLY KICKED YOU INTO PRISON? WHAT WAS THE WORST OFFENSE THAT YOU COMMITTED?

EDWARD BUNKER>> IN ALL MY LIFE?

VAL>> IN ALL YOUR LIFE. WHAT WAS THE MOST SERIOUS ONE?

EDWARD BUNKER>> PROBABLY ROBBING A BANK.

VAL>> ROBBING A -- WAS THAT THE BEVERLY HILLS BANK THAT YOU ROBBED?

EDWARD BUNKER>> THE BEVERLY HILLS BANK, YEAH.

VAL>> AND AT WHAT AGE WERE YOU THEN?

EDWARD BUNKER>> I WAS THIRTY-EIGHT, THIRTY-SEVEN.

VAL>> AND SO THAT PUT YOU BACK INTO PRISON FOR HOW LONG?

EDWARD BUNKER>> ACTUALLY, I GOT A LIGHTER SENTENCE THAN I'D EVER GOTTEN FOR ANYTHING.

VAL>> REALLY?

EDWARD BUNKER>> THE JUDGE GAVE ME A LITTLE PLAY AND I DIDN'T GO BACK AFTER THAT. IT WAS LIKE I SAW THE LIGHT OR SOMETHING. ACTUALLY, I SOLD A BOOK.

VAL>> SO YOU WERE ACTUALLY WRITING IN PRISON. TELL US A LITTLE BIT OF HOW YOU DISCOVERED WRITING WAS YOUR CALLING?

EDWARD BUNKER>> I'D BEEN A VORACIOUS READER THROUGH ALL THOSE JUVENILE INSTITUTIONS THAT WERE UGLY AND IT WAS MY ESCAPE. THE WAY I ESCAPED THE WORLD WAS TO READ WHATEVER BOOKS WERE THERE AND I READ WHATEVER WAS THERE. WHEN I WAS ABOUT EIGHTEEN OR NINETEEN YEARS OLD, I WAS IN SAN QUENTIN. I WAS IN THE HOLE AND THE HOLE USED TO BE IN BACK OF DEATH ROW AND I WOULD TALK THROUGH THE VENTILATORS TO CARYL CHESSMAN, THE RED LIGHT BANDIT.

VAL>> HE WAS A WRITER HIMSELF?

EDWARD BUNKER>> HE WAS ON DEATH ROW, BUT HE HAD WRITTEN A BOOK. I DIDN'T KNOW IT. A SERGEANT, ONE OF THE GUARDS, BROUGHT AROUND A MAGAZINE THAT HAD EXCERPTED A CHAPTER OF HIS FIRST BOOK AND IT WAS LIKE REVELATION. IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THIS CONVICT, THIS GUY ON DEATH ROW, COULD WRITE AND GET PUBLISHED.

VAL>> AND YOU WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO TALK TO HIM THROUGH A VENTILATOR?

EDWARD BUNKER>> THROUGH THE VENTILATOR SYSTEM, YEAH.

VAL>> DO YOU MEAN JUST BY CHANCE IT CONNECTED TO HIS CELL?

EDWARD BUNKER>> I KIND OF KNEW HIM FROM THE COUNTY JAIL. WHEN I ASSAULTED THE GUARD IN REFORM SCHOOL, THEY PUT ME IN WITH -- IT'S IN THE BOOK -- THEY PUT ME IN WITH ALL THE PEOPLE FACING DEATH PENALTIES BY MISTAKE. I WAS ONLY FIFTEEN YEARS OLD, BUT THEY BOOKED ME UNDER A SECTION OF THE PENAL CODE THAT CALLS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY BY ASSAULT BY A STATE PRISONER. I WASN'T FACING IT, BUT THE DEPUTIES DIDN'T KNOW IT WHEN THEY BOOKED THE PAPERS, SO THEY JUST PUT ME IN THE TANK WITH -- THERE WAS AN AMERICAN, A JAPANESE-AMERICAN, WHO WAS TO DIE FOR TREASON AND THERE WAS LLOYD SAMPSON, THE YACHT BANDIT, AND CHESSMAN, AND BILLY COOK, WHO HAD KILLED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE.

VAL>> BUT THE TURNING POINT WAS, WHEN YOU CONNECTED WITH THIS WRITING, YOU REALIZED YOU COULD ACTUALLY WRITE.

EDWARD BUNKER>> YES. I DIDN'T KNOW IT WOULD TAKE SEVENTEEN YEARS AND SIX BOOKS BEFORE I GOT PUBLISHED, BUT THAT'S WHEN I STARTED WRITING.

VAL>> AND ANOTHER TURNING POINT CAME. IT WAS IN 1975 WHEN DUSTIN HOFFMAN, OF ALL PEOPLE, SAW YOUR FIRST PUBLISHED BOOK WHICH WAS CALLED --

EDWARD BUNKER>> "NO BEAST SO FIERCE".

VAL>> "NO BEAST SO FIERCE" AND HE OPTIONED THAT BOOK AND IT EVENTUALLY BECAME A MOVIE CALLED "STRAIGHT TIME".

EDWARD BUNKER>> RIGHT.

VAL>> TELL US ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT THAT TURNING POINT WAS AND WHAT DID IT MEAN FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

EDWARD BUNKER>> WELL, WHAT IT MEANT IS, JUST WHEN I GOT OUT, JUST AT THE TIME THAT I GOT OUT, THEY WERE JUST GOING INTO PRE-PRODUCTION, SO THEY GAVE ME A JOB AS A TECHNICAL CONSULTANT AND INTRODUCED ME TO A WHOLE BATTALION OF OTHER PEOPLE, A DIFFERENT CLASS OF PEOPLE IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY, WHO TEND TO BE MORE FORGIVING AND LIBERAL, AND IT CHANGED MY RELATIONSHIP WITH SOCIETY.

VAL>> WHEN YOU SAY, A FORGIVING LIBERAL, MEANING THAT BEING AN EX-CON MEANT YOU WERE ALMOST TOTALLY UNEMPLOYABLE? 

EDWARD BUNKER>> OH, YEAH.

VAL>> AND IN THIS CASE YOU WERE ABLE TO ACTUALLY GO INTO THE HOLLYWOOD COMMUNITY AND YOU WERE SOMEWHAT SUPPORTED IF NOT EMBRACED AT TIMES?

EDWARD BUNKER>> THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE GETTING OUT. ONCE YOU'RE LOCKED UP, YOU'RE LOCKED OUT IN THIS SOCIETY. THIS IS NOT A FORGIVING SOCIETY. IT'S VERY PROTESTANT AND VERY PURITANICAL. OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE FRANCE, THEY'RE MORE FORGIVING BECAUSE THEY'RE CATHOLIC AND IN THE CULTURE THEY TEND TO BE MORE FORGIVING. CAN YOU IMAGINE BEING A BLACK EX-CONVICT IN AMERICA? I MEAN, YOU'RE OSTRACIZED FROM SOCIETY. ONCE YOU'RE LOST, YOU'RE LOST. WELL, WHEN I WROTE A BOOK, I WAS NO LONGER JUST THAT. I WAS A WRITER. I HAD WRITTEN A BOOK AND HAD ANOTHER BOOK BEING WRITTEN. I HAD WRITTEN A SCREENPLAY FOR THE MOVIE AND SO PEOPLE RESPONDED TO ME DIFFERENTLY.

VAL>> SO YOU'VE GONE ON TO PUBLISH FOUR NOVELS. YOU'VE NOW JUST PUBLISHED YOUR AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND YOU'VE WRITTEN SOME SCREENPLAYS, INCLUDING A WONDERFUL MOVIE CALLED "RUNAWAY TRAIN" WITH JON VOIGHT, WHICH IS FANTASTIC. AS YOU LOOK BACK ON IT, YOU JUST MADE THIS AMAZING TRANSFORMATION. DO YOU CREDIT ANY OF IT AT ALL TO REHABILITATIVE PROGRAMS IN PRISONS OR WAS IT COMPLETELY --

EDWARD BUNKER>> NO, IT WAS MOSTLY IN SPITE OF THAT.

VAL>> IN SPITE OF PRISON?

EDWARD BUNKER>> IN FACT, THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE NOW. WHEN I FIRST WENT TO PRISON, THERE WERE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE INMATES AND THEY HAD A LOT OF REHABILITATION PROGRAMS. IT SEEMS -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH RACE, BUT IT SEEMS THAT, AS IT'S BECOME MORE MINORITY, THERE'S LESS AND LESS PROGRAMS. THERE ARE NO MORE PELL GRANTS. THERE ARE NO MORE COLLEGE OR CORRESPONDENCE. MY WIFE, WHOM I MET WHEN I FIRST GOT OUT, WASN'T MARRIED THEN, SHE HAD A WHOLE LOT TO DO WITH MY MAKING A SUCCESS AND HOLDING ME TOGETHER WHEN I WOULD HAVE WENT OFF THE DEEP END, YOU KNOW, PUNCH SOMEBODY OR SOMETHING.

VAL>> AND YOU ALSO HAVE INTERESTING OPINIONS ON "THREE STRIKES".

EDWARD BUNKER>> OH, YES.

VAL>> YOU THINK IT'S THE COMPLETELY WRONG POLICY?

EDWARD BUNKER>> YEAH, THEY'VE REVERSED THE PROCESS. THEY SHOULD TAKE THE FIRST TIME SOMEBODY DOES A DRIVE-BY AND SHOOTS OR DOES SOMETHING VERY VIOLENT. I THINK THEY SHOULD KEEP THEM THEN UNTIL THEY'RE FORTY --

VAL>> AND NOT WAIT FOR THEM TO COMMIT ANOTHER ONE?

EDWARD BUNKER>> ANOTHER ONE, NO, BUT IT HAS TO BE VERY SERIOUS. I DON'T MEAN JUST STEALING BICYCLE OUT OF A GARAGE OR BREAKING INTO A HOUSE. I MEAN IF THEY REALLY DO SOMETHING -- PEOPLE WHO KNOW CRIMINALS, WHO UNDERSTAND THE CRIMINAL MIND, THEY KNOW THAT THE SOCIOPATH, THE PSYCHOPATH IDENTIFIES HIMSELF VERY YOUNG, BUT HE BURNS OUT USUALLY AT FORTY OR --

VAL>> IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?

EDWARD BUNKER>> YES, SURE. IT'S COMING OF AGE. THE ID DOESN'T BURN AS BRIGHT. YOU GET MORE INTERNALIZED RESTRAINTS AND THINGS.

VAL>> SO THERE'S A NATURAL DECRIMINALIZATION THAT HAPPENS --

EDWARD BUNKER>> DECRIMINALIZATION PROCESS, AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS, THEY REVERSE THE THING. THEY GIVE THEM THE BREAK IN THE FRONT END AND THEN THEY BURY THEM -- SOME OF THEM DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO ANYTHING BUT MAYBE STEAL A PAIR OF BLUEJEANS OR SOME PETTY CRIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO ANYTHING ELSE, BUT WHY GIVE THEM TWENTY-FIVE YEARS THEN. THEY'RE NO LONGER A MENACE.

VAL>> EDWARD BUNKER, I WISH WE COULD TALK TO YOU A LOT LONGER, BUT IT'S ALL IN YOUR STORY, "EDUCATION OF A FELON". 

EDWARD BUNKER>> IT'S GETTING GREAT REVIEWS, SELLING WELL.

VAL>> WONDERFUL. I'M SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT AND I WISH YOU THE BEST IN YOUR NEW LIFE.

EDWARD BUNKER>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WE TURN NOW TO THE WORLD OF VISUAL ARTS. THE GETTY MUSEUM IS KNOWN FOR BOTH ITS RICH COLLECTION AND SPECTACULAR FACILITY, BUT THE ART WORK AT THE GETTY IS MORE FROM A CONVENTIONAL TIME CREATED BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY. BUT NOW, FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE MUSEUM HAS MOUNTED AN EXHIBITION OF CONTEMPORARY ART, AS WE SEE IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

THE GETTY COMMISSIONED ELEVEN LA ARTISTS TO CREATE WORKS ESPECIALLY FOR THIS EXHIBIT. THEY WERE CHALLENGED TO RESPOND TO WORKS IN THE GETTY'S OWN COLLECTION, SO WHAT RESULTED FROM THIS ASSIGNMENT CALLED "DEPARTURES"? WE'LL TAKE A LOOK. HERE TO TELL US IS LISA LYONS, CURATOR OF THE EXHIBITION. AS I MENTIONED, IT'S CALLED "DEPARTURES" BECAUSE THEY ARE DEPARTING FROM THE CONVENTIONAL GETTY COLLECTION.

LISA LYON>> PRECISELY.

VAL>> AND WHOSE IDEA WAS THIS? THIS IS AN INTERESTING CONCEPT, TO BRING ON ELEVEN ARTISTS, ASK THEM TO PICK OUT A PIECE FROM THE GETTY'S TRADITIONAL COLLECTION AND RESPOND TO IT IN THEIR OWN WAY. THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING IDEA.

LISA LYON>> IT'S NOT REALLY A NEW IDEA. THERE ARE OTHER INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE DONE SUCH PROGRAMS. BUT JOHN WALSH, THE DIRECTOR OF THE MUSEUM, INVITED ME TO PROPOSE A SHOW AND THIS SEEMED LIKE THE RIGHT WAY FOR THE GETTY TO GET ITS FEET WET WITH CONTEMPORARY ART.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO GET RIGHT INTO WHAT THE RESULT WAS. THE FIRST ONE IS BY ARTIST JOHN MILLER. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A PICTURE OF JOHN MILLER FIRST.

LISA LYON>> THIS IS A DETAIL OF A PORTRAIT TAKEN BY GRANT MUDFORD, A SERIES OF PICTURES TAKEN BY MUDFORD OF ALL THE ARTISTS IN THE SHOW. THIS IS JOHN MILLER LOOKING VERY IMPOSING INDEED IN FRONT OF ONE OF HIS PAINTINGS.

VAL>> AND HE CHOSE TO RESPOND TO AN ILLUSTRATED MANUSCRIPT. HERE IT IS.

LISA LYON>> THIS IS ACTUALLY HALF OF A MANUSCRIPT ILLUSTRATION. THERE'S A FACING PAGE AND IT'S BY [JEAN FUQUE]. IT'S A FIFTEENTH-CENTURY MANUSCRIPT THAT SHOWS THE DONOR, THE OWNER OF THE BOOK, KNEELING IN PRAYER BEFORE THE MADONNA AND CHILD, WHO WE DON'T SEE HERE.

VAL>> AND JOHN MILLER'S REACTION TO THAT IS LIKE THIS, WHICH WE WILL SEE IN CLOSE-UP IN JUST A MOMENT. NOW YOU DEFINITELY HAVE TO MAKE A CONNECTION FOR US.

LISA LYONS>> RATHER SURPRISING, ISN'T IT, THAT JOHN MILLER WHO WOULD CREATE MONUMENTAL CANVASSES --

VAL>> HERE'S THE DETAIL.

LISA LYON>> YES, THAT'S A DETAIL THAT SHOWS THE PATTERN OF DIAGONAL BARS AGAINST RAW CANVAS IN VERY DARK BUT LOVELY COLORS.

VAL>> SO WHAT IS THE CONNECTION?

LISA LYON>> THE CONNECTION REALLY IS THAT JOHN HAS ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY MANUSCRIPTS AND BY THE INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP THAT A VIEWER HAS WITH A MANUSCRIPT. IT'S PRECISELY THAT KIND OF INTIMACY THAT HE TRIES TO EVOKE IN HIS OWN WORKS, EVEN THOUGH IT'S A VERY LARGE-SCALE PAINTING ON A WALL AND SOMEBODY STANDS IN FRONT OF IT, BUT TO GET THAT KIND OF ONE-TO-ONE CONNECTION AND DEVELOP THE KIND OF MEDITATIVE FEELING THAT ONE CAN HAVE IN FRONT OF THE PAINTING JUST AS YOU CAN WITH A MANUSCRIPT.

VAL>> NEXT ARTIST, ALISON SAAR. HERE'S A PICTURE OF ALISON.

LISA LYON>> THIS IS AGAIN A DETAIL OF A PORTRAIT OF ALISON AND SHE'S LEANING ON THE WOOD THAT IS GOING TO BECOME HER SCULPTURE.

VAL>> GREAT. AND SHE CHOSE TO RESPOND TO A ROMAN STATUTE.

LISA LYON>> RIGHT. THIS IS THE [LANDSTONE HERECLES]. IT'S AN ANCIENT ROMAN PORTRAIT OF HERCULES WITH HIS CLUB AND THE SKIN OF THE LION THAT HE BASHED WITH HIS CLUB.

VAL>> AND LET'S SEE WHAT HER RESPONSE TO THIS WAS. OH MY GOODNESS, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE ANOTHER CONNECTION FOR US. THERE WE GO.

LISA LYON>> THERE SHE IS. ALISON CHOSE TO MAKE A FIGURE IN AN INSTALLATION TITLED "AFRO DEITY" AND IT'S REALLY A KIND OF RESPONSE NOT ONLY TO THE POSE OF THE [LANDSTONE HERECLES] WHICH YOU CAN SEE IS VERY SIMILAR INDEED, BUT IT'S ALSO A RESPONSE TO WHAT SHE DID NOT SEE AT THE GETTY. SHE DID NOT SEE AFRICAN IMAGES. SHE DID NOT SEE THINGS THAT PROVIDED A KIND OF REFLECTION OF HER OWN IMAGE. CONSEQUENTLY, SHE DECIDED TO CREATE THIS VERY STRONG FEMALE FIGURE WHO IS A KIND OF OCEAN DEITY.

VAL>> GREAT. THE NEXT ONE IS BY RUBEN ORTIZ TORRES AND HE IS A LOVER OF LOW-RIDERS, AS WE CAN SEE FROM THIS PORTRAIT OF HIM.

LISA LYON>> YES, THIS IS AGAIN A DETAIL OF A PORTRAIT OF RUBEN IN A LOW-RIDER PROVIDED BY ONE OF THE GUYS HE WORKED WITH. THEIR BUSINESS IS CALLED "BACKYARD BOOGIE", AS YOU CAN SEE.

VAL>> AND WHAT CAPTURED HIS IMAGINATION WAS A STEREOGRAPH THAT WAS TAKEN IN CUBA DURING THE SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR.

LISA LYON>> RIGHT. RUBEN GOT VERY PLEASANTLY LOST IN THE VAST COLLECTIONS OF THE GETTY RESEARCH INSTITUTE, WHICH INCLUDES LITERALLY MILLIONS OF PHOTOGRAPHS. STEREOGRAPHS ARE EARLY 3D IMAGES.

VAL>> ALMOST LIKE THE VIEWFINDERS THAT WERE USED --

LISA LYON>> EXACTLY. IN FACT, RUBEN SAYS THAT HIS FIRST GLIMPSES OF AMERICA WERE GIVEN TO HIM THROUGH HIS VIEWMASTER WHEN HE WAS A KID. SO HE'S ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN 3D TECHNOLOGY AND HE'S ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED ALSO IN CUBA. HE'S A MEXICAN CITIZEN WHOSE FATHER HAD WRITTEN THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ANTHEM TO CHE GUEVARA, THE REVOLUTIONARY.

VAL>> OH, REALLY? SO WHAT DID HE DO IN RESPONSE TO THIS STEREOGRAPH?

LISA LYON>> HE THOUGHT ABOUT CUBAN HISTORY. HE THOUGHT ABOUT HIS PERSONAL HISTORY AND HE THOUGHT ABOUT CHE'S CAR, WHICH IS A CHEVY HOUSED IN A MUSEUM IN HAVANA. HE MADE, AMONG OTHER THINGS, A 3D VIDEO AND THIS LOW-RIDER.

VAL>> SO HE CREATED CHE GUEVARA'S CAR, IN A SENSE --

LISA LYON>> A VERSION OF CHE GUEVARA'S CAR.

VAL>> -- OR WHAT HE WOULD IMAGINE.

LISA LYON>> EXACTLY. HERE'S A DANCING LOW-RIDER.

VAL>> COMBINED LOVE OF LOW-RIDERS WITH THE CUBAN WAR. THE NEXT ARTIST IS ADRIAN SAXE. TELL US A BIT ABOUT HER.

LISA LYON>> ADRIAN SAXE IS BEST KNOWN AS AN ARTIST WHO WORKS IN CERAMICS. HERE WE SEE HIM IN A STUDIO WITH SOME OF MODELS FOR VARIOUS THINGS AROUND HIM. HE RESPONDED TO --

VAL>> FRENCH AND ITALIAN TABLE FROM THE DECORATIVE ARTS.

LISA LYON>> PRECISELY. THIS IS AN EIGHTEENTH CENTURY VERY ELABORATE GOLD TABLE. HE CREATED A SERIES OF CERAMIC PIECES TO STAND ATOP THIS TABLE AND HERE WE SEE IT.

VAL>> SO HE USED THE TABLE ITSELF IN THE --

LISA LYON>> RIGHT, AND REPLACED THE TOP OF THE TABLE WITH A NEW MODEL TOP AND THEN CREATED THESE PIECES WHICH ARE MADE OUT OF PORCELAIN WITH VERY ELABORATE SURFACES AND EACH IS TOPPED BY A FINIAL THAT IS AN ACTION FIGURE. SO THEY'RE KIND OF TROPHIES FOR BAD BEHAVIOR.

VAL>> IS HE KIND OF MAKING FUN OF THE ALMOST KITSCHINESS OR THE OVERLY EXCESSIVE DECORATIVE --

LISA LYON>> IT POKES A BIT OF FUN AT EIGHTEENTH CENTURY FRANCE IN THAT SENSIBILITY, BUT HE'S ALSO A GREAT LOVER OF THOSE THINGS AND REALLY BELIEVES THAT IS SHOULD BE MORE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

VAL>> SO YOU LET THESE ARTISTS JUST ROAM THROUGH THE GETTY AND CHOOSE WHAT THEY WANTED TO RESPOND TO, OR DID YOU GIVE THEM VARIOUS GUIDANCE?

LISA LYON>> WELL, SOMETIMES ONE MIGHT POINT IN CERTAIN DIRECTIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, I SUGGESTED TO RUBEN ORTIZ THAT HE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN VISITING THE GETTY RESEARCH INSTITUTE. BUT ONCE THERE, WHAT HE FOUND WAS WHAT HE FOUND ON HIS OWN. SIMILARLY, EACH ARTIST WAS DIRECTED JUST TO GO IN, MAKE A VISIT AND THEN COME BACK AND TALK ABOUT IT.

VAL>> HOW HAVE PEOPLE RESPONDED? THEY COME TO THE GETTY EXPECTING ONE THING AND THEY RUN INTO SOME VERY UNUSUAL ITEMS HERE.

LISA LYON>> RIGHT. WELL, THIS SHOW IS ALSO, THOUGH, CONCEIVED IN A WAY TO DRAW PEOPLE BACK INTO THE PERMANENT COLLECTION. SO I THINK THIS EXHIBITION MIGHT BE SURPRISING FOR VISITORS WHO ARE USED TO SEEING HISTORICAL WORKS AT THE GETTY, BUT THEN IT BRINGS THEM BACK IN TO THE COLLECTIONS.

VAL>> AND IT CERTAINLY MAKES US MAKE CONNECTIONS WHERE WE NORMALLY WOULDN'T. IT'S REALLY STIMULATING. VERY PROVOCATIVE.

LISA LYONS>> RIGHT.

VAL>> LISA LYONS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING. THE CONTACT INFORMATION IS ON YOUR SCREEN IF YOU'D LIKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE "DEPARTURES", ELEVEN ARTISTS AT THE GETTY. IT WILL BE ON DISPLAY THROUGH MAY 7.

THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW, TWO YOUNG REPORTERS TAKE US INTO THE DARK WORLD OF IMMIGRANT SMUGGLING.

>> SO HOW MUCH MONEY DID YOU HAVE TO PAY TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES?

>> $38,000.

>> $38,000 PER PERSON? AND HAVE YOU PAID THAT MONEY BACK AS YET?

>> NO, NOT YET. WE STILL PAYING.

VAL>> THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

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VAL>> FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING. THANKS FOR WATCHING. BYE-BYE.

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