03/23/00

LC000323

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> TEENAGERS LIKE TO GET TOGETHER AND PARTY WITH FRIENDS, BUT SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN HAVING TOO MUCH FUN.

NOAH NELSON>> IT'S 9:00 P.M. SATURDAY NIGHT IN LAGUNA HILLS. THE KIDS ARE OUT AND THE PARTIES ARE ON, BUT THE ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT'S PARTY PATROL IS ON AS WELL.

SGT. KELSEY LOVELADY>> HAVE YOU GUYS HAD ANYTHING TO DRINK TONIGHT AT ALL? OKAY, WELL, WHILE I'M TALKING TO YOU GUYS, I CAN SMELL ALCOHOL, SO SOMEBODY'S HAD SOMETHING TO DRINK IN HERE.

VAL>> AND IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, PEOPLE ARE ON A CREDIT CARD TEAR AND SOME FAMILIES ARE GETTING BURIED IN DEBT.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD HAS MORE THAN $7,000 IN CREDIT CARD DEBT, OKAY? THAT MEANS ON THAT CREDIT CARD DEBT THEY'RE PAYING ABOUT $1,000 IN INTEREST PER YEAR, WHICH IS RIDICULOUS.

WARREN>> PATT MORRISON WANTS TO KNOW IF THE GOVERNMENT CAN COUNT ON YOU.

PATT>> SIT DOWN AND BE COUNTED. THE CENSUS IS UPON US, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> AND HOW DO YOU GET A COMPLEX MESSAGE ACROSS WITH ONE PICTURE? WE'LL FIND OUT FROM A MAN WHO DOES IT NEARLY EVERY DAY, POLITICAL CARTOONIST MICHAEL RAMIREZ.

WARREN>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR THURSDAY, MARCH 23, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING CORPORATIONS AND FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

GTE
A COMPANY COMMITTED TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXCELLENCE AND AN OPEN DIALOGUE AMONG ALL PEOPLE.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY.

VAL>> AND I'M VAL ZAVALA.

WARREN>> OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, PARTY PATROL. IT'S A CATCHY NAME FOR AN ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DETAIL WITH A SERIOUS PURPOSE: GETTING CONTROL OF TEENAGE PARTIES BEFORE THEY GET OUT OF CONTROL.

VAL>> DEPUTIES GET DOZENS OF COMPLAINTS EVERY WEEKEND ABOUT LOUD MUSIC, UNDERAGE DRINKING OR CROWDS OF TEENAGERS IN THE STREET. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE NO LONGER WAITING FOR NEIGHBORS TO CALL. THEY NOW HUNT DOWN GATHERINGS, LOOKING FOR POTENTIAL PROBLEMS. NOAH NELSON WENT ALONG ON A RECENT PATROL.

NOAH>> IT'S 9:00 P.M. SATURDAY NIGHT IN LAGUNA HILLS. THE KIDS ARE OUT AND THE PARTIES ARE ON, BUT THE ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT'S PARTY PATROL IS ON AS WELL.

MIKE MILLER>> WELL, BASICALLY, IT'S CALLED THE PARTY CAR OR DISTURBANCE CAR. THEY WANT US TO DO -- OUR PRIMARY GOAL WOULD BE TO DRIVE AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND, IF THERE'S A PARTY OF SOME SORT, JUST CONTACT THE HOST OR HOSTESS, MAKE SURE THEY'RE NOT ANTICIPATING ANY PROBLEMS.

NOAH>> IT'S DEPUTIES, MIKE MILLER AND KEN [BERMOOD]'S JOB TO MAKE SURE THAT THE DOZENS OF PARTIES THAT HAPPENED HERE MOST WEEKENDS DON'T GET OUT OF CONTROL. AT THIS LOCATION, NEIGHBORS COMPLAINED THAT KIDS WERE JUST HANGING AROUND.

KEN>> WHAT'S UP, GUYS? GOOD. HOW ARE YOU? I DON'T KNOW. WHERE'S THE PARTY? IT'S AN ADULTS' PARTY? IS IT A BIRTHDAY? GOOD. YOU'RE DRINKING A COKE. I LIKE THAT.

NOAH>> THE PATROL'S MISSION IS TO CHECK FOR UNDERAGE DRINKING AND DRUG ABUSE AMONG THE YOUNG PARTY-GOERS AND TO KEEP A LID ON THE NOISE.

MIKE>> MY SUGGESTIONS ARE TO TURN THE STEREO DOWN, CLOSE YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS. AT NIGHTTIME, IF THE MUSIC'S OUTSIDE, THEN TURN IT OFF BECAUSE THE NOISE CARRIES A LOT AT NIGHT.

NOAH>> THE PARTY PATROL'S BEAT IS MAINLY THE UPSCALE NEIGHBORHOODS OF LAGUNA HILLS, WHERE TWO- AND THREE MILLION DOLLAR HOMES ARE COMMON. LAST YEAR, POLICE WERE CALLED TO RESPOND TO ALMOST 150 RAUCOUS PARTIES, MOST THROWN BY TEENAGERS WHOSE PARENTS WEREN'T HOME.

MIKE>> MOST PARTIES WILL BE AN INVITED GUEST LIST OR THEIR FRIENDS THEY'VE ACTUALLY INVITED. THE PROBLEM WILL COME FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT INVITED OR WHO ARE CRASHING IT. THEY'LL HAVE ALCOHOL IN THE CARS, TRY AND BRING ALCOHOL INTO THE PARTY AND THAT'S WHEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE OUR FIGHTS. WHEN YOU GET TEENAGERS WHO'VE BEEN DRINKING TOO MUCH, THEY HAVE ALCOHOL ON BOARD AND THEY WANT TO PICK A FIGHT WITH SOMEBODY.

NOAH>> WHAT POLICE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE INCREASING LEVEL OF VIOLENCE CONNECTED TO THE PARTIES. RECENTLY, ONE BOY WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED AFTER BEING JUMPED BY FIFTEEN OTHER KIDS.

SGT. KELSEY LOVELADY>> LATELY WE'VE BEEN SEEING VIOLENCE. IN FACT, SOME OF THE BIGGER PARTIES THAT WE'VE BEEN GOING TO, THERE'S BEEN FIGHTS BREAKING OUT AT EVERY ONE OF THEM LATELY, WHICH IS WHY WE'RE PAYING MORE ATTENTION TO THE TEEN VIOLENCE THESE DAYS.

KEN>> SO YOU GUYS GOING TO THE PARTY OR YOU GUYS --

>> I'M LEAVING --

NOAH>> TECHNOLOGY PLAYS A ROLE IN HOW FAST A PARTY CAN DEVELOP. BECAUSE OF BEEPERS AND CELL PHONES AND WORD OF MOUTH, IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR A SMALL PARTY WITH TEN OR FIFTEEN PEOPLE TO EXPLODE INTO ONE WITH OVER 250 UNINVITED GUESTS.

KEN>> YOU DON'T SEEM VERY HAPPY.

>> I'M SO PISSED RIGHT NOW.

KEN>> WHY?

>> BECAUSE I JUST HATE KIDS.

KEN>> YOU HATE KIDS? HOW OLD ARE YOU?

>> I'M SIXTEEN. I KNOW I'M A KID. I JUST HATE --

NOAH>> ONCE ONE PARTY BEGINS TO DIE OUT, THEY MOVE ON TO THE NEXT.

>> THE WORD GETS OUT AND IT'S AROUND EVERYWHERE WITHIN A MATTER OF HOURS.

KEN>> SO YOU GUYS JUST DRIVE AROUND TRYING TO FIND THE NEXT PARTY?

>> NO, I DON'T DRIVE AROUND GOING TO PARTIES. 

KEN>> DO YOU GO WITH SOMEBODY?

>> WHAT?

KEN>> DO YOU GO WITH SOMEBODY?

>> YEAH.

KEN>> AND THEY DRIVE AROUND AND TRY TO FIND THE NEXT PARTY?

>> SOMETIMES.

NOAH>> AT SOME LOCATIONS, THE PARTYING SOMETIMES SPILLS OUT INTO THE STREET AND INTO PARKED CARS.

SGT. KELSEY LOVELADY>> HAVE YOU GUYS HAD ANYTHING TO DRINK TONIGHT AT ALL? OKAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, WHILE I'M TALKING TO YOU GUYS, I CAN SMELL ALCOHOL, SO SOMEBODY'S HAD SOMETHING IN HERE. THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS, IF YOU'RE IN A VEHICLE WITH ANY PERCENTAGE OF ALCOHOL WHATSOEVER ON YOUR BREATH, YOU GET A TICKET FOR THAT. YOU LOSE YOUR LICENSE FOR A YEAR. YOU KNOW THAT? SO IF YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN DRINKING, SITTING OUT IN A CAR IS NOT THE PLACE TO BE.

NOAH>> THERE'S SO MANY PARTIES AND THERE'S SO MANY KIDS OUT HERE THAT YOU GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THE PARENTS ARE JUST LIKE NOT PAYING VERY MUCH ATTENTION.

SGT. KELSEY LOVELADY>> I THINK THEY DO CARE. I THINK THE PROBLEM IS, YOU KNOW, PARENTS ARE BUSY DOING THEIR OWN THINGS. THEY BELIEVE THEIR KIDS ARE OUT HANGING IN WITH THEIR OTHER GOOD FRIENDS AND THEY DON'T REALIZE SOMETIMES THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY OUT CRUISING FOR PARTIES AND GETTING THEMSELVES IN TROUBLE AND STUFF.

NOAH>> IN THE FOUR WEEKENDS THE PARTY PATROL HAS BEEN ON THE BEAT, FOURTEEN YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH THINGS RANGING FROM MINOR DRUG POSSESSION TO FELONY ASSAULT. COPS SAY THEY'RE UP AGAINST ONE OF THE OLDEST OF MODERN PROBLEMS: KIDS WITH NOTHING TO DO BUT PARTY.

KEN>> OUR BIGGEST THING IS, WE JUST WANT TO PREVENT ANYTHING FROM HAPPENING. OUR GOAL IS NOT TO GO OUT AND ARREST EVERYBODY. WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE EVERYBODY HAS A FUN AND SAFE TIME WHILE THEY'RE OUT THERE.

WARREN>> WHY LAGUNA HILLS, I GUESS, IS WHAT OCCURS TO ME? AND AREN'T THERE MORE SERIOUS KINDS OF THINGS GOING ON IN OTHER PARTS OF ORANGE COUNTY?

NOAH>> WELL, CERTAINLY, BUT THESE KINDS OF PARTIES THAT ARE TECHNOLOGY DRIVEN, WHERE THE KIDS HAVE CELL PHONES AND BEEPERS AND BIG HOUSES TO GO AND PARTY AT, THIS IS WHY THAT'S GOING ON THERE.

VAL>> WAS THERE A PARTICULAR INCIDENT THAT SPARKED THIS PARTY PATROL?

NOAH>> A FEW MONTHS AGO, THERE WAS A BIG PARTY WHICH GOT OUT OF CONTROL AND ONE KID WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED. HIS EYE WAS ALMOST PUT OUT. I THINK THIS IS WHAT PROMPTED THEM TO SAY WE NEED TO PUT THIS SPECIAL CAR IN FORCE TO DRIVE AROUND TO SOME OF THESE PARTIES AND SLOW THINGS DOWN.

WARREN>> HAS THERE BEEN ANY NEGATIVE REACTION FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THE COPS TO COME AND INVADE PRIVACY?

NOAH>> THE NIGHT WE WERE THERE, THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO BE. I MEAN, WE WENT TO SEVERAL DOORS AND PEOPLE SAID, WELL, OKAY, THE COPS ARE HERE. LET'S JUST TONE THIS THING DOWN. AND NO ONE REALLY GOT OUT OF CONTROL.

VAL>> IS THERE ANY KIND OF FEEDBACK -- I DON'T WHAT VEHICLE IT WOULD COME THROUGH -- WHERE PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND THEY SAY, "OH MY GOSH, POOR LAGUNA HILLS. THEY HAVE SOME ROWDY TEENAGERS TO DEAL WITH." YOU KNOW, OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS THAT REALLY FACE SERIOUS CRIME?

NOAH>> WELL, THERE'S AN ARGUMENT FOR THAT, BUT THIS SPECIAL CAR WAS SET UP TO STOP THE TEEN DRINKING AND DRIVING. THAT'S ONE THING THAT'S DANGEROUS TO EVERYBODY, THEY SAY. AND THE PARTY ATMOSPHERE. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'VE GOT A PARTY THAT STARTS OUT WITH TEN PEOPLE AND, ALL OF A SUDDEN IN THIRTY MINUTES, YOU'VE GOT TWO HUNDRED PEOPLE AND MOST OF THEM YOU DON'T KNOW, THAT'S A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

VAL>> I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT.

WARREN>> AND FELONY ASSAULT IS A SERIOUS CRIME, WHEREVER IT MIGHT OCCUR.

NOAH>> SURE.

VAL>> IT IS TRUE THAT DRINKING CAN REALLY SPIRAL INTO SOME SERIOUS STUFF. NOAH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, SOME MINIMUM WAGE WORKERS ARE GETTING VERY EXCITED ABOUT THE RADICAL PAY HIKE SANTA MONICA IS CONSIDERING.

>> I'M NOT AFRAID OF THE CORPORATIONS OUT THERE. I'M NOT AFRAID OF THE BUSINESS SECTOR OUT THERE. WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL THEM, THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE. THIS IS THE YEAR OF 2000. SO LET'S GET UP, WAKE UP AND JUST BUILD SANTA MONICA AS WORKERS AND LET'S FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS TO MAKE THIS LIMITED INCREASE GO THROUGH.

WARREN>> EVERY DAY ALL OF US AS CONSUMERS ARE BOMBARDED WITH CREDIT CARD OFFERS IN THE MAIL. NO SECRET THAT USING CREDIT CARDS IS A SURE WAY TO QUICKLY BUILD UP A HUGE DEBT THAT TAKES YEARS TO PAY OFF. VAL SPOKE RECENTLY WITH MANUEL MUNOZ OF CALIFORNIA CONSUMER CREDIT. HE SHARES SOME THOUGHTS IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

VAL>> EXPLAIN TO ME HOW IT CAN BE THAT, IN UNPRECEDENTED ECONOMIC BOOM TIMES, PEOPLE ARE STILL GETTING IN TROUBLE FINANCIALLY?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> ACTUALLY, THE WAY IT WORKS, THE MORE INCOME AND THE MORE BOOMING THE NATION IS AND THE PEOPLE ARE, THE MORE DEBT THERE GOING TO FIND THEMSELVES IN. I MEAN, IT'S DRAMATICALLY GROWN OVER THE PAST YEARS.

VAL>> ARE YOU SAYING THAT, WHEREVER PEOPLE ARE, THEY ALWAYS MANAGE TO LIVE BEYOND THEIR MEANS NO MATTER WHAT LEVEL?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> EXACTLY. THEY OVER-EXTEND THEMSELVES IN DEBT. THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD HAS MORE THAN $7,000 IN CREDIT CARD DEBT, OKAY? THAT MEANS, ON THAT CREDIT CARD DEBT, THEY'RE PAYING ABOUT $1,000 IN INTEREST PER YEAR, WHICH IS RIDICULOUS.

VAL>> THIS IS THE AVERAGE?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> THIS IS THE AVERAGE.

VAL>> AT WHAT POINT SHOULD A PERSON SAY, OH, DEAR, I'M IN TROUBLE. I NEED TO CONTACT CALIFORNIA CREDIT COUNSELING OR THEIR BANK OR SOMETHING? WHAT ARE THE SIGNS?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> THE SIGNS? GOOD QUESTION. I WOULD SUGGEST THAT WHEN YOUR DEBT EXCEEDS MORE THAN TEN PERCENT OF YOUR INCOME. THAT'S A SIGN.

VAL>> IS THAT GROSS INCOME?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> YES.

VAL>> SO IF I'M EARNING $40,000 A YEAR, IF MY CREDIT CARD DEBT IS MORE THAN $4,000, THEN THAT IS NOT GOOD?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> EXACTLY. THAT'S NOT GOOD AT ALL. 

VAL>> WHAT IF I THINK, WELL, I'M BEING RESPONSIBLE. I'M PAYING THE MINIMUM BALANCE EVERY MONTH. I NEVER GET BEHIND.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> BASICALLY, THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK. TECHNICALLY, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT THAT WAY. CREDITORS MAKE THEIR MONEY OFF HIGH INTEREST. THEY'LL GIVE YOU A MINIMUM PAYMENT OF $20 AND YOU'LL MAKE THAT MINIMUM PAYMENT ON A $3,000 BALANCE. YOU KEEP MAKING THAT $20 PAYMENT AND WHAT'S GOING ON IS THAT INTEREST KEEPS COMPOUNDING, ACCUMULATING, ACCUMULATING, ACCUMULATING, SO YOU OWE ABOUT $1,000 OF INTEREST PER YEAR. WHAT YOU ALWAYS WANT TO DO IS ALWAYS WANT TO GIVE MORE THAN THE MONTHLY PAYMENT. EVEN IF IT'S $10, $20 MORE, JUST GIVE MORE. YOU ALWAYS WANT TO COVER THE INTEREST PLUS THE MONTHLY PAYMENT. THAT WAY YOUR PRINCIPAL GOES DOWN.

A LOT OF CONSUMERS, WHAT THEY DO IS, THEY GET OVER-EXTENDED. THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE OPTIONS IN CREDIT COUNSELING. SO WHAT THEY DO IS DECIDE TO FILE BANKRUPTCY. GRANTED, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT AND OVER-EXTEND THEMSELVES ON PURPOSE AND THEN JUST FILE BANKRUPTCY SO THEY WON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR ANY OF THEIR DEBT. SO THE BIG DISCUSSION GOING ON RIGHT NOW IS THE BANKRUPTCY REFORM ACT OF 1999. BASICALLY, WHAT THAT IMPLIES IS THAT A CONSUMER CANNOT FILE BANKRUPTCY BEFORE GOING TO A CREDIT COUNSELING AGENCY.

VAL>> THIS IS A FAIRLY NEW LAW?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> EXACTLY.

VAL>> SO BEFORE I CAN DECLARE BANKRUPTCY, I HAVE TO GO TO YOU OR SOME OTHER SIMILAR AGENCY. WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF I GO?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> YOU'LL ENROLL FOR 180 DAYS. THAT'S THE MINIMUM THAT THE BANKRUPTCY COURT REQUIRES.

VAL>> I HAVE TO ENROLL IN THIS --

MANUEL MUNOZ>> IN THE CREDIT COUNSELING FOR 180 DAYS.

VAL>> OKAY.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> IT'S CALLED A DEBT MANAGEMENT PLAN.

VAL>> OKAY.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> DURING THOSE 180 DAYS, YOU HAVE TO ATTEND AT LEAST TWO FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT COURSES, WHICH MEANS WORKSHOPS AS FAR AS HOW TO BUDGET YOUR MONEY, HOW TO SPEND WISELY AND HOW TO USE YOUR CREDIT.

VAL>> NOW ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE WHO COME THIS CLOSE TO BANKRUPTCY, BUT MANAGE TO AVOID IT, --

MANUEL MUNOZ>> AS A MATTER OF FACT, YES.

VAL>> -- AND THEN THEY STILL GET IN TROUBLE AGAIN?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> I JUST HAD A CONSUMER COME IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, A 23-YEAR-OLD KID. YOUNG, ENTREPRENEUR, HAD HIS OWN BUSINESS, A TRUCKING BUSINESS. AS MOST LATINO YOUNG MEN DO, THEY OPEN UP THEIR OWN BUSINESS. HE HAD NO INSURANCE AS FAR AS MEDICAL INSURANCE FOR HIMSELF. HE GOT HURT ON THE JOB AND HE WAS OUT FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

VAL>> AND IT WAS HIS OWN BUSINESS?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> YEAH. MEDICAL BILLS PILED UP, DEBT PILED UP AND HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. HE GOT BETTER, HE CAME IN TO OUR AGENCY AND SAID, HELP ME OUT HERE. I NEED YOUR HELP. I LOOKED OVER HIS STATEMENTS, I LOOKED OVER HIS PAPERWORK. HE HAD JUDGMENTS FROM ATTORNEYS. HE HAD CREDIT CARD DEBT. I MEAN, HE HAD A WHOPPING -- FOR HIS AGE, HE HAD ABOUT $35,000 IN DEBT. HE CAME IN TO OUR ORGANIZATION FOR ONE THING. FOR REFERRAL FOR BANKRUPTCY. THAT'S ALL HE WANTED. HE WANTED TO FILE BANKRUPTCY. I TOOK A LOOK AT HIS PAPERWORK AND SAID LET ME SEE WHAT I CAN DO. I CALLED THE ATTORNEYS, TOLD THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE SITUATION, CLIENT WANTS TO FILE BANKRUPTCY, 23-YEAR-OLD, HAS THE MONEY TO PAY, IS WILLING TO PAY, LET'S WORK SOMETHING OUT. I TALKED TO HIM BACK AND FORTH. WE NEGOTIATED AND WORKED SOMETHING OUT. WE GOT HIM A PAYMENT OF ABOUT $400 A MONTH, WHICH WAS AFFORDABLE TO HIM AT THE TIME, AND HE'S ON THE PROGRAM AND HE'S MAKING PAYMENTS.

VAL>> NOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF HE HAD FILED BANKRUPTCY? WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED FOR HIS FUTURE FINANCIAL --

MANUEL MUNOZ>> MOST LIKELY, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN STUCK FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS.

VAL>> TEN YEARS, MEANING NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A CREDIT CARD?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> WELL, THAT'S A MYTH THAT PEOPLE BELIEVE IN.

VAL>> THAT'S WHAT I WONDERED.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> EXACTLY.

VAL>> DE-MYSTIFY IT FOR US.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> IT'S NOT THAT YOU CAN'T GET A CREDIT CARD OR THAT YOU WON'T BE GIVEN A CREDIT CARD. YOU'LL GET A LOAN, BUT YOU'LL GET A LOAN AT ABOUT 25, 26, 27 PERCENT INTEREST, WHICH IS OUTRAGEOUS.

VAL>> SO YOU REALLY PAY THE PRICE.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> EXACTLY. ALMOST DEFINITELY.

VAL>> MY FINAL QUESTION. WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY THAT BOMBARDS US WITH ADVERTISING. BUY, BUY, BUY. SPEND, SPEND, SPEND, FROM AGE TWO UP TO AGE NINETY. YOU MUST FEEL LIKE IT'S A CONSTANT UPHILL BATTLE EVERY TIME YOU SEE -- I MEAN, YOU'RE ON THE OTHER SIDE GOING CONTROL, REIN YOURSELF IN, WATCH YOUR MONEY.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> YES, TOTALLY.

VAL>> IS THIS A LOSING BATTLE?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT. YOU GOT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT ADVERTISING AND THE MARKETING AND THE TACTICS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE THERE. IT'S A MATTER OF NECESSITY. DO YOU REALLY NEED THIS CREDIT CARD? DO YOU REALLY NEED TO BE IN DEBT? DO I REALLY NEED THESE EXTRA PAIR OF SHOES? IT'S JUST A MATTER OF NECESSITY.

VAL>> AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY CHANGE PEOPLES' MINDSET? THEIR MENTALITY?

MANUEL MUNOZ>> YEAH. OH, MOST DEFINITELY.

VAL>> MANUEL MUNOZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH, WITH THE CALIFORNIA CREDIT COUNSELING.

MANUEL MUNOZ>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

WARREN>> THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD HAS $7,000 IN DEBT? WHAT'S THE INCOME FOR THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD?

VAL>> THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD IS PROBABLY AROUND $30,000 IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

WARREN>> SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 25 PERCENT OF YOUR INCOME IS DEBT?

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU PAY JUST THE MINIMUM, YOU NEVER GET AHEAD, SO IT'S SOMETHING TO LOOK AT.

WARREN>> PRETTY IMPORTANT.

IF YOU'D LIKE US TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS SEGMENT OR ANY OF THE REPORTS ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US. WE WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 664-4159

VAL>> AND NOW, PATT MORRISON IS COUNTING THE THINGS UNCLE SAM WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT YOU, IN TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS GIVEN YOU TWO BIG HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENTS. ONE COMES EACH YEAR ABOUT THIS TIME. THE 1040 FORM, THE FEDERAL INCOME TAX, WHICH WAS PERMANENTLY IMPOSED IN 1913, MAKING IT MERE INFANT COMPARED TO THIS OTHER FEDERAL HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT. THE CENSUS FORM. THE CENSUS BEGAN IN 1790 UNDER DIRECT ORDERS OF THE CONSTITUTION. NOW, INCOME TAX IS AN ANNUAL CHORE, WHERE THE CENSUS FORM LANDS ONCE ONLY EVERY TEN YEARS, BUT IT BEARS A DECADE WORTH OF WAIT. AS FAR AS THE CENSUS BUREAU IS CONCERNED, IT IS SO IMPORTANT THAT IT PREVIEWS LIKE COMING MOVIES, POSTCARDS TELLING YOU TO WATCH FOR IT, COMING TO A MAILBOX NEAR YOU.

MOST ARE BRIEF AND SIMPLE, BUT HERE IS THE LONG FORM. IT'S SENT TO ONE HOUSEHOLD OUT OF SIX. IT HAS SPACES FOR YOU AND FOR ELEVEN OF YOUR CLOSEST COHABITANTS, BUT NOT SPACES ENOUGH, SO THE COMPLAINTS GO, FOR SPECIFIC RACES AND BLENDS OF RACES AND ETHNICITIES AND EVEN SEXUAL PREFERENCES. BUT HERE IS SOME OF WHAT IT DOES ASK. WHAT LANGUAGES DO YOU SPEAK AT HOME? DOES ANYONE IN YOUR HOUSE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH BLINDNESS? DEAFNESS? ANY CONDITION THAT INHIBITS MEMORY, CONCENTRATION, GETTING DRESSED OR GETTING AROUND? HOW MUCH EDUCATION DO YOU HAVE? WHAT KIND OF JOB DO YOU DO AND HOW MUCH DOES IT PAY? ARE YOU BRINGING UP YOUR OWN GRANDCHILDREN? HOW MANY ONE-TON VEHICLES DO YOU DRIVE? DO YOU HAVE A TELEPHONE? HOW ABOUT INDOOR PLUMBING?

NOW THE CENSUS HAS ISSUED FRANTIC ASSURANCES THAT THIS INFORMATION STAYS IN ITS COMPUTERS. IN LATINO NEIGHBORHOODS, IT HAS PUT UP POSTERS STATING THAT IT IS NOT THE INS, THE FBI, THE CIA OR THE IRS. NOT FILLING OUT THESE FORMS CAN BRING ON $100 FINE OR $500 IF YOU FIB ON THE FORM. NOT A PENNY OF THOSE FINES HAS EVER BEEN LEVIED, BUT IT'S NEVER TOO SOON FOR THEM TO START.

TWO HUNDRED YEARS OF CENSUS FORMS MAKE A FASCINATING PROFILE OF AMERICANS, BUT THERE IS A NEW RESISTANCE. A WARINESS ABOUT PERSONAL DATA IN PUBLIC HANDS. THIS MAY BE THE GOVERNMENT'S TOUGHEST CREDIBILITY BATTLE SINCE IT INSISTED THAT VIETNAM WASN'T A REAL WAR. THEY TOO REMEMBER THE LAST AND THE BIGGEST OF THE THREE BIG LIES: I'M FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND I'M HERE TO HELP YOU.

WARREN>> THANK YOU, PATT.

EDITORIAL CARTOONS ARE INTENDED TO PROVOKE A RESPONSE. SOMETIMES THEY MAKE YOU THINK, SOMETIMES THEY MAKE YOU SMILE, SOMETIMES THEY EVEN BRING A LUMP TO YOUR THROAT.

VAL>> ANOTHER FREQUENT RESPONSE IS OUTRAGE. IN LOS ANGELES TIMES, OR SHOULD I SAY LOS ANGELES TRIBUNE, EDITORIAL CARTOONIST MICHAEL RAMIREZ HAS SEEN HIS SHARE OF OUTRAGE, AS WE'LL SEE IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

RAMIREZ SAYS HIS WORK IS INTENDED TO BE A CATALYST FOR THOUGHT AND DISCUSSION AND HE SEEMS TO BE DOING JUST THAT. HIS WORK HAS BEEN AWARDED WITH A PULITZER PRIZE AND IS NOW SYNDICATED WORLDWIDE IN OVER 550 NEWSPAPERS AND MAGAZINES.

WARREN>> AND HERE HE IS JOINING US NOW. MICHAEL RAMIREZ, EDITORIAL CARTOONIST FOR THE LOS ANGELES TIMES, GOOD TO HAVE YOU.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> NICE TO BE HERE.

WARREN>> DO YOU LIKE TO MAKE PEOPLE MAD?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> UH, NO. NO. IN FACT, YOU KNOW, WE TRACE MOST OF THOSE HOSTILE PHONE CALLS THAT I GET AND THEY'RE ALL FROM MY MOTHER, SO THOSE NUMBERS ARE A LITTLE OUT OF SKEW.

WARREN>> OR THE KID THAT DIDN'T LIKE YOU IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> THAT'S RIGHT.

WARREN>> YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE CARTOONIST IN A LIBERAL PAPER. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> WELL, I HAD PHOTOGRAPHS OF MICHAEL PARKS AND DICK SCHLOSBERG AND SHELBY COFFEE, AND THEY HAD NO ALTERNATIVE BUT TO GIVE ME A JOB. YOU KNOW, IT WAS STRANGE. IN FACT --

WARREN>> HIGHLY PLACED EXECUTIVES AT THE TIMES, FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH THOSE NAMES.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> THAT'S RIGHT. YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY FIRST OFFERED ME THE JOB IN '94 AFTER I WON THE PULITZER, I THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF A STRANGE COUPLING BECAUSE, PHILOSOPHICALLY, WE'RE SO DIFFERENT. FRANKLY, THE FIRST THING I TOLD THEM WAS, I'M A CAPITALIST, YOU GUYS ARE COMMUNISTS, THIS WILL NOT WORK.

VAL>> SORRY TO INTERRUPT. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR WORK BECAUSE IT SAYS SO MUCH. THE FIRST CARTOON DEALS WITH THE LAUSD AND IT SHOWS A PICTURE OF A SNOOZING ZACARIAS, RUBEN ZACARIAS, THE FORMER SUPERINTENDENT OF THE LAUSD, OVERSEEING A POOL OF DROWNING CHILDREN.

WARREN>> AND THE CAPTION, OR THE BALLOON, IS, "HEY KID, KEEP IT DOWN. WE'RE TRYING TO SAVE SOMEONE'S CAREER OVER HERE." THAT'S PRETTY TOUGH STUFF.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> YEAH. WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK CARTOONS HAVE TO BE PROVOCATIVE. THE DYNAMICS OF WHAT WE DO IS, WE HAVE A LOT MORE LEEWAY THAN OUR COLLEAGUES' INTERNALISM TO SORT OF TIPTOE ON THE LINE OF LIBEL AND SLANDER AND JUST SORT OF PUSH AN ISSUE TO AN EXTREME, BECAUSE WE REALLY WANT TO GET PEOPLE INVOLVED. I MEAN, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ELECTION, THE PRESIDENT AND HER HUSBAND WERE ELECTED WITH 43 PERCENT OF THE VOTE IN '92. WHEN YOU TAKE THE ACTUAL NUMBERS, THAT NUMBER DROPS DOWN TO 23.3 PERCENT. AS A POLITICAL CARTOONIST, WHAT MY DRIVING AMBITION IS IS TO GET PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS. THAT STARTS IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE ISSUES.

WARREN>> OKAY. HERE'S ANOTHER CARTOON. IT SHOWS ONE OF OUR STATE SENATORS, RICHARD POLANCO, SACRIFICING A CHILD ON THE ALTER OF RACIAL POLITICS WITH AN AZTEC STATUE IN THE BACK. HE'S OBVIOUSLY A PRIEST. EXPLAIN THAT ONE.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THIS ONE REALLY IS A LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF EVENTS. I FELT BY DEFENDING ZACARIAS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT LAUSD AND YOU THINK WE COULDN'T STOP SOCIAL PROMOTION BECAUSE 85 PERCENT OF THE KIDS WOULD FAIL, IT'S DEFINITELY AN EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM GONE AWRY.

WARREN>> DID YOU GET A LOT OF HEAT, THOUGH, FOR THESE TWO CARTOONS?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> OH, YEAH. IN FACT, WE HAD MANY HISPANIC LEADERS THAT CAME IN AND PROTESTED THE CARTOON ON RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS. MY RESPONSE WAS, BASICALLY, "I DIDN'T REALIZE WE HAD SO MANY PRACTICING AZTECS. I'LL MAKE A DEAL WITH YOU. IF YOU ARE A PRACTICING AZTEC, THAT MEANS YOU HAVE TO SACRIFICE PEOPLE. IF YOU START WITH ZACARIAS, I'LL STOP DOING THE CARTOON."

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT WHAT IS PROBABLY YOUR MOST CONTROVERSIAL CARTOON EVER. IT SHOWS A YOUNG PRIVATE RETURNING TO BASE IN A JEEP ACCOMPANIED BY A SHEEP. THAT'S A SHEEP THERE. AND THE MP NEXT TO HIM NEXT TO HIM IS THINKING, NOT SAYING BUT THINKING, "DON'T ASK, DON'T ASK, DON'T ASK". YOU TOOK FLAK FOR THIS ONE.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> YEAH. YOU KNOW, I THINK PART OF IT IS REALLY PEOPLE THAT ARE SERVING THEIR OWN AGENDA. FRANKLY, I SHOWED THE CARTOON AROUND TO A REAL DIVERSE ARRAY OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF MY HOMOSEXUAL FRIENDS, JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY WOULD GET THE POINT. THE POINT, OBVIOUSLY, IS -- THE LITTLE INTERPRETATION OF THE CARTOON IS THAT TRYING TO DETERMINE PEOPLES' SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS JUST KIND OF A LUDICROUS POLICY. I JUST TOOK IT A LITTLE TO THE EXTREME.

WARREN>> BUT PEOPLE ACCUSED YOU OF ASSOCIATING HOMOSEXUALITY WITH BESTIALITY.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> RIGHT, WHICH TO ME IS JUST A STRETCH. AND FRANKLY, I THINK IT'S MOSTLY PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN AGENDA AND IT GIVES THEM A HIGH PROFILE TO DO IT.

VAL>> THE NEXT CARTOON IS PROBABLY ONE OF YOUR MOST POTENT. IT'S YOUR SIMPLEST AND IT SIMPLY SHOWS THE BARREL OF A GUN TURNING BACK TOWARD THE GOP, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> AS YOU CAN SEE, I'M AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY OFFENDER. REALLY, THE CARTOONS IN THEIR CONTEXT ARE REALLY ABOUT ISSUES RATHER THAN PERSONALITIES. I THINK CLINTON WOULD PROBABLY BE A GREAT GUY TO GO TO THE BAR AND PICK UP WOMEN WITH, BUT IT'S THE ISSUES THAT HE'S DEALING WITH THAT AFFECT US ALL. THAT'S SORT OF WHAT I DO.

WARREN>> SPEAKING OF CLINTON, I BELIEVE WE HAVE A CARTOON THAT SHOWS HIM IN IT. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT ONE. THERE HE IS WITH HIS PANTS OFF. I DON'T THINK IT SHOWS ON THE SCREEN THERE, BUT IT SAYS "CONTEMPT" ON THAT STATUTE. IT LOOKS LIKE THE STATUE AT THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> YOU KNOW, HE WAS THE ONLY PRESIDENT IN OFFICE TO EVER BE FOUND IN CONTEMPT OF COURT AND FINED. INITIALLY, MY IDEA WAS TO THINK OF WHAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE MEMORIAL FOR THIS PRESIDENT. I THOUGHT, WELL, MAYBE I COULD DO THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT WITH A BIG PROPHYLACTIC OVER THE TOP OF IT, AND IF FIGURED THIS ONE WAS PROBABLY A LITTLE MORE PRINTABLE.

VAL>> IT'S ACTUALLY, AND THAT WOULD HAVE VIOLATED PERHAPS ONE OF YOUR OWN RULES OF GOOD TASTE.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> OH, ABSOLUTELY. THEN AGAIN, MY PREDECESSOR WAS PAUL CONRAD AND PAUL WAS ALWAYS IN BAD TASTE, SO --

WARREN>> HOW DO YOU DEFINE BAD TASTE? WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO GET YOU OUT OF THE PAPER?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> WELL, EVERYTHING I DO IS FRANKLY IN BAD TASTE. HOPEFULLY, THEY'LL NEVER JUDGE IT ALONG THOSE LINES.

WARREN>> HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE LA TIMES? HAVE THEY EVER SAID, "NO, WE WON'T PRINT THIS ONE"?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> NO, NO. YOU KNOW, THE LA TIMES HAS REALLY BEEN FANTASTIC AS FAR AS GIVING ME THE FREEDOM TO DO WHAT I DO BEST, WHICH IS ANALYZE NEWS AND COME UP WITH THE VISUAL METAPHORS FOR IT. YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN LINES THAT WE ALL HAVE TO RESPECT AND TRAGIC CIRCUMSTANCES. YOU CAN'T MAKE FUN OF THAT.

VAL>> THAT'S TRUE.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> I THINK HUMOR IS A VERY POWERFUL VEHICLE. IT FACILITATES THE ABILITY TO REACH A HUGE AUDIENCE WITH YOUR MESSAGE, BUT IT HAS TO BE USED AT THE APPROPRIATE TIMES, OBVIOUSLY. SO THAT'S ABOUT IT. OTHERWISE, THE WAY POLITICS IS, THE CRAZINESS OF IT, IT PRETTY MUCH GIVES ME BOUNDARIES TO GO AS FAR AS THE THINGS YOU CAN --

WARREN>> YOU'VE GOT A LOT TO WORTH WITH.

VAL>> AS YOU DARE TO GO.

WARREN>> MICHAEL RAMIREZ, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE.

WARREN>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.

TOMORROW ON WHICH WAY LA, GASOLINE PRICES ARE UP. THAT'S BAD NEWS FOR SUV DRIVERS, BUT IS THERE ANOTHER SIDE OF THE STORY? WE'LL TALK ABOUT PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION AND AIR POLLUTION AND GLOBAL ECONOMICS. THAT'S TOMORROW.

KCRW 89.9 FM, WHICH WAY LA
WEEKDAYS FROM 1-2 P.M.
REBROADCAST AT 7:00 P.M.

I CAN GET THEM MAD TOO. SEE? THERE'S GOOD NEWS IN GASOLINE PRICES GOING UP.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ>> JUST DON'T PUT IT ON YOUR CREDIT CARDS.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. HAVE A GREAT EVENING. SEE YOU TOMORROW.

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