03/24/00

LC000324

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA IS AT IT AGAIN, THIS TIME CONSIDERING A PLAN TO SHARE THE WEALTH WITH THE WORKING POOR.

SAUL GONZALEZ>> IN ALL, AN ESTIMATED 3,000 WORKERS COULD BE COVERED BY THE WAGE HIKE. ONE OF THEM IS BRIAN SAMUEL. ASK HIM WHAT IT'S LIKE TO LIVE ON MINIMUM WAGE AND HIS ANSWER IS BLUNT.

BRIAN SAMUEL>> IT STINKS. IT'S REALLY HARD TO BE LIVING ON MINIMUM WAGE. IT DOES NOT PAY THE BILLS AT ALL.

VAL>> AND WE GET OUR WEEKLY DOSE OF POLITICAL PROGNOSTICATION FROM MADDOX & HEWITT.

HEWITT>> IT'S EIGHT MONTHS AWAY, BUT AL GORE AND GEORGE BUSH ARE ALREADY PLOTTING THEIR CALIFORNIA STRATEGIES.

MADDOX>> AND IS FORMER SENATOR, TOM HAYDEN, REALLY THINKING ABOUT RUNNING FOR THE LA CITY COUNCIL?

HEWITT>> WE CAN ONLY HOPE SO. IT'S COMING UP ON MADDOX & HEWITT.

WARREN>> HE IS THE CRAFTSMAN BEHIND SOME OF THE MOST FAMOUS SCENES ON FILM.

[FILM CLIP]

ON THIS OSCAR WEEKEND, WE'LL INTRODUCE YOU TO OSCAR-WINNING SCREENWRITER, WILLIAM GOLDMAN, AUTHOR OF "MISERY", "PRINCESS BRIDE" AND "BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID".

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR FRIDAY, MARCH 24, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING CORPORATIONS AND FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

GTE
A COMPANY COMMITTED TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXCELLENCE AND AN OPEN DIALOGUE AMONG ALL PEOPLE.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY.

VAL>> AND I'M VAL ZAVALA.

WARREN>> OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, A LIVING WAGE. SEVERAL CITIES, INCLUDING LOS ANGELES, ALREADY HAVE ENACTED LIVING WAGE ORDINANCES. THESE MEASURES RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE TO A LEVEL THAT WILL SUPPORT A FAMILY OF FOUR WITHOUT FOOD STAMPS. BUT SANTA MONICA IS PROPOSING TO DO THINGS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.

VAL>> SANTA MONICA'S PROPOSED ORDINANCE IS DRAWING NATIONAL ATTENTION FOR TWO REASONS. FIRST, BECAUSE IT WOULD AFFECT PRIVATE BUSINESSES, AND SECOND, IT IS LIMITED TO A SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA. SAUL GONZALEZ HAS THIS REPORT.

SAUL>> SANTA MONICA. ONCE A SLEEPY SEASIDE COMMUNITY, IT'S NOW BECOME A TOURIST MECCA, ITS WIDE BEACHES, RITZY RESORT HOTELS AND EL FRESCO SHOPPING ATTRACTING VISITORS FROM KYOTO TO COPENHAGEN AND EARNING THE CITY OVER $500 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN REVENUES. YET AS SANTA MONICA PROSPERS ON TOURISM DOLLARS, LABOR UNIONS AND ACTIVISTS CHARGE THE COMMUNITY'S WORKING POOR ARE STILL EARNING RECESSION-ERA PAYCHECKS.

VIVIAN ROTHSTEIN>> THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MAKE THE TOURISM INDUSTRY BOOM IN SANTA MONICA ARE GOING HOME AND CAN'T MAKE ENDS MEET. THEY CAN'T PAY FOR SHOES FOR THEIR KIDS. THEY CAN'T COVER THEIR FAMILY IN HEALTH INSURANCE. YEAH, THEY'RE REALLY STRUGGLING.

SAUL>> VIVIAN ROTHSTEIN IS WITH SANTA MONICANS ALLIED FOR RESPONSIBLE TOURISM, OR S.M.A.R.T., AN ACTIVIST GROUP SEEKING TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE CITY'S LOWEST WAGE WORKERS. ITS SOLUTION? DRAMATICALLY INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE.

VIVIAN ROTHSTEIN>> WE'RE AWARE THAT THIS HUGE INCOME GAP IN THE MIDST OF THIS BOOMING ECONOMY IS SOMETHING THAT NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO RESOLVE. AND WE FEEL LIKE THIS IS A VERY INNOVATIVE APPROACH TO RESOLVE IT. TO BRING THE PEOPLE UP FROM THE BOTTOM WHO WORK HARD, WHO ARE LIVING BY THE RULES AND WHO STILL CAN'T SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES.

SAUL>> NOW UNDER REVIEW BY CITY GOVERNMENT, S.M.A.R.T.'S PROPOSAL WOULD RAISE HOURLY MINIMUM WAGES FROM $5.75, NOW THE STATE STANDARD, TO $10.69 AN HOUR, AN ALMOST $5.00 HIKE. THAT INCREASE, HOWEVER, WOULD ONLY COVER COMPANIES WITH FIFTY OR MORE EMPLOYEES LOCATED ALONG A TWO-MILE STRETCH OF SANTA MONICA'S OCEANFRONT, THE EPICENTER OF THE CITY'S TOURISM TRADE.

VIVIAN ROTHSTEIN>> WE LOOKED AT THE CITY AND WE LOOKED AT WAGES OF THE CITY AND WE FOUND THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF LOW WAGE UNDER-COMPENSATED WORKERS WAS IN THE COASTAL ZONE. SO WE WANTED TO FOCUS OUR ORDINANCE AT THE AREA OF THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF INJUSTICE.

SAUL>> UNLIKE OTHER SO-CALLED MUNICIPAL LIVING WAGE ORDINANCES, LIKE LOS ANGELES'S, WHICH COVER CITY SUBCONTRACTORS, THE SANTA MONICA PROPOSAL IS THE FIRST MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE THAT TARGETS SOLELY PRIVATE FIRMS WITHOUT CITY CONTRACTS. IN ALL, AN ESTIMATED 3,000 WORKERS COULD BE COVERED BY THE WAGE HIKE. ONE OF THEM IS BRIAN SAMUEL. ASK HIM WHAT IT'S LIKE TO LIVE ON MINIMUM WAGE AND HIS ANSWER IS BLUNT.

BRIAN SAMUEL>> IT STINKS. IT'S REALLY HARD TO BE LIVING ON MINIMUM WAGE. IT DOES NOT PAY THE BILLS AT ALL. IT IS VERY HARD.

SAUL>> SAMUEL, WHO WORKS AS A CAREGIVER IN A RETIREMENT HOME IN THE PROPOSED MINIMUM WAGE ZONE, SUPPORTS THE WAGE HIKE WITH AN ALMOST EVANGELICAL ZEAL.

BRIAN SAMUEL>> I'M NOT AFRAID THE CORPORATIONS OUT THERE. I'M NOT AFRAID OF THE BUSINESS SECTOR OUT THERE. WHAT I'M TRYING TO TELL THEM, THE TRUTH SHALL SET US FREE. THIS IS THE YEAR 2000, SO LET'S GET UP, WAKE UP AND JUST BUILD SANTA MONICA AS WORKERS AND LET'S FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS.

SAUL>> MANY SANTA MONICA MERCHANTS ARE EQUALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT A SHARP RISE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE COULD DO TO THEM.

ANTHONY PALERMO>> EVERYBODY'S SCARED TO DEATH AND THE EMPLOYEES ARE SCARED TO DEATH TOO BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE THEIR JOBS. WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS HELP PEOPLE AND IT'S JUST GOING TO PUT US OUT OF BUSINESS.

SAUL>> ANTHONY PALERMO OWNS TEASERS RESTAURANT ON SANTA MONICA'S THIRD STREET PROMENADE. HE SAYS A $10.69 MINIMUM WAGE WOULD FORCE HIM AND OTHER MERCHANTS TO RAISE PRICES, WHICH IN TURN COULD DRIVE AWAY CUSTOMERS.

ANTHONY PALERMO>> IF THEY HAVE TO PAY A THIRD OR A HALF MORE FOR A MOVIE, IF THEY HAVE TO PAY DOUBLE WHAT THEY WOULD FOR A NORMAL RESTAURANT MEAL TO COME DOWN TO THE PROMENADE, WOULD YOU COME?

SAUL>> I'D THINK TWICE.

ANTHONY PALERMO>> YEAH. I MEAN, WOULD YOU COME DOWN TO TEASERS ON THE SANTA MONICA PROMENADE AND PAY TWICE AS MUCH FOR YOUR FOOD THAT YOU WOULD ANYWHERE ELSE? I DON'T THINK SO. I MEAN, WE LIKE TO THINK WE'RE A GREAT RESTAURANT, BUT I DON'T --

SAUL>> NOT THAT GOOD.

ANTHONY PALERMO>> NOT THAT GOOD.

TOM LARMORE>> I DO THINK THAT MANY BUSINESSES WILL NOT -- TRY AS THEY MIGHT, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO ABSORB THESE COSTS AND THEY CAN'T SURVIVE.

SAUL>> ATTORNEY TOM LARMORE IS WITH THE SANTA MONICA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, THE CHIEF OPPONENT OF THE MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE. LARMORE ADMITS IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A SANTA MONICA LIFESTYLE ON A MINIMUM WAGE, BUT CONTENDS FEW PEOPLE KEEP LOW WAGE JOBS FOR LONG.

TOM LARMORE>> THE FACT IS THAT PROBABLY AT LEAST HALF, IF NOT MORE, OF THE ENTRY LEVEL JOBS ARE TAKEN BY YOUNG SINGLE PEOPLE. THEY ARE ENTRY LEVEL OPPORTUNITIES AND THEY DON'T STAY IN THOSE JOBS LONG. THE PEOPLE WHO DO, NEED TO HELP IN TRYING TO DEVELOP THEIR SKILLS SO THAT THEY CAN GET A BETTER PAYING JOB.

SAUL>> LARMORE ARGUES THAT THE MINIMUM WAGE PROPOSAL IS BEING PUSHED BY MILITANT UNIONS IN LEAGUE WITH LABOR SUPPORTERS ON SANTA MONICA'S CITY COUNCIL.

TOM LARMORE>> THIS COUNCIL IS NO SECRET. THIS COUNCIL WE HAVE HAS BEEN VERY ADVERSE TO BUSINESS, VERY HOSTILE TO BUSINESS OVER THE LAST YEAR OR SO. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THINGS --

SAUL>> THAT HOSTILITY?

TOM LARMORE>> THAT HOSTILITY. THEY LOOK AT BUSINESS AND SAY WE DON'T CARE WHETHER THIS IS A PROBLEM FOR YOU AND WE WANT YOU TO DO THIS.

VIVIAN ROTHSTEIN>> WE'RE NOT ANTI-BUSINESS. WE'RE JUST PRO-EMPLOYEE. WE'RE PRO-JUSTICE. WE DON'T WANT TO DRIVE BUSINESSES OUT. WE JUST WANT TO SET A BASIC MORAL STANDARD. IF THEY WANT TO OPERATE IN SANTA MONICA, THEY NEED TO REPRESENT JUSTICE AND FAIRNESS. THAT'S ALL WE'RE ASKING. IF THESE HOTELS DON'T WANT TO PAY DECENT WAGES, THEY CAN GO OUT. THEY CAN LEAVE AND WE THINK THERE'LL BE PLENTY OF HOTELS AND RESTAURANTS THAT WANT TO TAKE THEIR PLACE.

SAUL>> FROM RENT CONTROL TO HOMELESS POLICIES, SANTA MONICA HAS LONG PRIDED ITSELF ON CHARTING NEW PUBLIC POLICY WATERS. THE MINIMUM WAGE INITIATIVE MIGHT BE THE COMMUNITY'S NEXT VOYAGE.

WARREN>> PRETTY CONTROVERSIAL STUFF. THERE ALREADY HAS BEEN AN ALLEGATION OF RETALIATION BY ONE EMPLOYER IN THIS AREA. TELL US ABOUT THAT.

SAUL>> IT CAME OUT YESTERDAY. THE JONATHON CLUB, A PRIVATE EXCLUSIVE CLUB ON THE BEACH IN SANTA MONICA, FIRED TWENTY OF THEIR EMPLOYEES YESTERDAY, IT WAS ANNOUNCED. MANY OF THOSE EMPLOYEES SUPPORTED THIS MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE. CRITICS OF THE JONATHON CLUB SAY THAT THOSE FIRINGS WERE DIRECTLY RELATED TO THEIR SUPPORT OF THIS INITIATIVE. THE JONATHON CLUB SAYS NO, NO, NO, THIS IS OUT-SOURCING THAT WE HAD IN MIND FOR A LONG TIME, COMPLETELY UNRELATED. IT'S INTERESTING, THOUGH. I DID GET A CALL FROM THE SANTA MONICA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE TODAY WHO SAID, "WHATEVER THE JONATHON CLUB IS DOING, WE'RE NOT RELATED TO THAT. WE'RE OPPOSED TO THIS MINIMUM WAGE INCREASE, BUT THEY'RE OUT THERE ALONE DOING THIS."

VAL>> REAL BRIEFLY, SAUL, WHEN'S THE PROPOSAL UP FOR A VOTE?

SAUL>> IT'LL PROBABLY BE RESOLVED IN SOME WAY OR ANOTHER IN THE CITY COUNCIL OR THROUGH A CITY-WIDE INITIATIVE BY NOVEMBER.

VAL>> OH, YOU MEAN IT COULD BE AN INITIATIVE?

SAUL>> IT COULD BE AN INITIATIVE PROCESS. THE SANTA MONICA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE HAS A COUNTER-PROPOSAL, ONE THAT WAS MUCH MORE LIKE YOUR CONVENTIONAL LIVING WAGE ORDINANCES IN OTHER CITIES THAT WOULD RAISE MINIMUM WAGE TO ABOUT $8.36, BUT IT WOULD ONLY COVER WORKERS FOR THOSE COMPANIES WHO HAVE CONTRACTS WITH --

VAL>> CONTRACTS WITH THE CITIES.

SAUL>> -- THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA. THE SUPPORTERS OF THE S.M.A.R.T. INITIATIVE SAY THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND THAT'S JUST REALLY A TROJAN HORSE THAT'S BEING PUSHED OUT THERE TO UNDERMINE THIS INITIATIVE.

WARREN>> WE WILL SEE MORE.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

COMING UP TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES WEEKEND, WE LOOK AT THE LAW THAT LETS A WOMAN'S ATTACKER REMAIN FREE, EVEN THOUGH DNA EVIDENCE HAS IDENTIFIED THE RAPIST.

>> HE DOES NEED TO BE PUT AWAY AND HE'S NOT GOING TO BE PUT AWAY. HE'S GOING TO GET OUT IN 2007 AND DO IT AGAIN AND THAT'S WHAT UPSETS ME.

VAL>> THAT'S TOMORROW AT 2:00 P.M. ON LIFE AND TIMES WEEKEND.

WARREN>> NOW MADDOX & HEWITT HAVE SOME OBSERVATIONS ON WHAT AL GORE AND GEORGE BUSH NEED TO KNOW ABOUT CALIFORNIA, AND WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT TOM HAYDEN.

MADDOX>> HUGH, WE GOT TWO BIG STORIES WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT. LATER WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE LA CITY COUNCIL RACE IN THE FIFTH DISTRICT, STATE SENATOR TOM HAYDEN. BIG RUMOR HE'S GOING TO COME BACK AND RUN FOR THE LA CITY COUNCIL SEAT. THAT'S AN ELECTION THAT TAKES PLACE IN 2001.

BUT FIRST I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. WE'RE EIGHT MONTHS AWAY. OBVIOUSLY, YOU THINK GEORGE BUSH HAS A CHANCE IN CALIFORNIA. I'M ALWAYS CONVINCED THAT AL GORE IS GOING TO WIN CALIFORNIA. WHAT I'D LIKE TO FIND OUT FROM YOU IS WHAT DO YOU THINK GEORGE W. BUSH NEEDS TO DO TO WIN CALIFORNIA? HE CAME IN SECOND IN THE OPEN PRIMARY TO GEORGE W. BUSH. I LOOKED AT THE NUMBERS THE OTHER NIGHT. GEORGE W. BUSH LOST BY 450,000 VOTES. HOW DO YOU OVERCOME THAT IN NOVEMBER?

HEWITT>> VERY EASY. THERE'S AN AIR WAR AND THERE'S A GROUND WAR. THE GROUND WAR IS IN THE LATINO COMMUNITY, WHICH WAS EFFECTIVELY WAGED IN THE PRIMARY AGAINST JOHN MCCAIN. IT REQUIRES THAT GEORGE W. BUSH CONTINUE TO BUILD ON THE 30 PERCENT OF THE LATINO ELECTORATE THAT SAID THEY WOULD VOTE FOR HIM ALREADY IN A HEAD TO HEAD CONTEST WITH AL GORE AS FROM THE EXIT POLLS. IT MEANS A LOT OF TIME IN LOS ANGELES. IT MEANS A LOT OF TIME IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS OF SANTA ANA AND EAST LOS ANGELES, AS WELL AS SOME OF THE NORTHERN CALIFORNIA AREAS THAT ARE HEAVILY LATINO.

THE AIR WAR IS REALLY ALREADY UNDERWAY AND IT MAKES TWO THINGS VERY OBVIOUS ABOUT AL GORE. ONE, THE VICE PRESIDENT IS REALLY A "POINDEXTER WITH A PLAN", THE SORT OF PERSON THAT WE KNOW FROM HIGH SCHOOL DAYS. THE STUDENT COUNCIL PRESIDENT, THE SMARTEST GUY, VERY ANNOYING AND VERY DWEEBY. NOT VERY CALIFORNIAN. NOT THE KIND OF CANDIDATE. WE DON'T VOTE FOR POINDEXTERS OUT HERE. AND HE'S GOT DIRTY MONEY ALL OVER HIM. THE BUDDHIST TEMPLE IS IN HACIENDA HEIGHTS. $104,000 ILLEGALLY RAISED THERE. THE MINUTES THAT HAVE COME OUT OF THE MAP ROOM MEETING SHOW THAT AL GORE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING WHEN HE TOOK HARD MONEY CALLS. HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING WHEN HE WAS INVOLVED IN THIS DEEP, DEEP CORRUPTION. CALIFORNIA'S A CLEAN STATE. VERY COMPLICATED STATE, BUT HE'S NEITHER WITH IT POLITICALLY IN TERMS OF THE CULTURAL CONNECTION, AND HE CERTAINLY IS MUCH TOO DIRTY FOR CALIFORNIA POLITICS.

MADDOX>> ALL RIGHT, LET ME TELL YOU HOW YOU'RE WRONG ON THE EAST SIDE. FIRST OF ALL, GEORGE W. BUSH CONTINUES TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT HE'S DONE WELL WITH LATINOS IN TEXAS. HE DID NOT DO WELL WITH LATINOS IN CALIFORNIA. HE'S TRIED TO REACH OUT TO THAT COMMUNITY. THE PROBLEM WAS, WHEN HE WENT TO SOUTH CAROLINA, HE WENT TO THE RIGHT. HE WENT TO BOB JONES UNIVERSITY. BOB JONES UNIVERSITY HAS THESE ANTI-CATHOLIC SENTIMENTS. LATINOS ARE HEAVY PARTICIPANTS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. WHEN YOU TALK TO LATINO POLITICAL LEADERS AND OTHER PEOPLE, THEY SAY GEORGE W. BUSH IS GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING OVER THAT. THAT ANTI-CATHOLIC THING, THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, I THINK THE POLICIES OF GEORGE W. BUSH ARE TO THE RIGHT OF THE MAINSTREAM OF THE LATINO COMMUNITY. THAT'S ANOTHER THING YOU GOT TO WORRY ABOUT. AL GORE, I THINK, IS DOING PRETTY WELL. YOU SAY HE'S POINDEXTER. I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO TRY AND DEMAGOGUE HIM ON THE BUDDHIST TEMPLE MONEY, BUT I THINK THE ISSUE THAT'S REALLY GOING TO HURT YOU IS GUN CONTROL. AS LONG AS YOU GOT THE NRA OUT THERE BASICALLY IN BED WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND WAYNE [ ], I CAN'T THINK OF HIS NAME RIGHT NOW, BASICALLY SAYING THE PRESIDENT AND ANYONE ELSE WOULD ALLOW PEOPLE TO DIE IN ORDER TO ADVANCE THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA, IT CREATES THE IMPRESSION THAT GEORGE W. BUSH AND REPUBLICANS ARE EXTREMISTS OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM. THAT HURTS --

HEWITT>> AND THE POINDEXTER CAUCUS DOESN'T LIKE GUNS. WE KNOW HOW THEY ARE. BUT YOU DO HAVE THAT POINDEXTER PROBLEM AND YOU KNOW THAT'S TRUE.

MADDOX>> AND THE THING ABOUT GUNS, HUGH, I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT YOU AND I KNOW, BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER, THERE'S GOING TO BE A TRAGEDY SOMEWHERE. SOME YOUNG PERSON IS GOING TO SHOOT ANOTHER PERSON AND THEN THE CALLS ARE GOING TO GO UP AND IT'S GOING TO MAKE YOU GUYS APPEAR TO BE IN BED WITH THE NRA. YOU CAN'T GET OVER THAT. IT'S A BIG ISSUE IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. WE WIN CALIFORNIA, WE WIN NEW YORK AND WE'RE GOING TO BE VERY COMPETITIVE IN FLORIDA WITH YOU GUYS.

HEWITT>> WE'LL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS, BUT THE EARLY GAME HAS GONE TO THE REPUBLICANS. TELL ME ABOUT --

MADDOX>> HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT? YOU LOST THE PRIMARY.

HEWITT>> BECAUSE HE HAD 49-44 IN THE NATIONAL POLL AND IT'S COMPETITIVE IN A STATE THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE TO WIN. THE SOUTH IS SOLID FROM FLORIDA TO TEXAS, AND FROM THE SOUTH OF TEXAS UP TO THE CANADIAN BORDER IN THE SPINE OF THE COUNTRY. IT'S ALL REPUBLICAN RIGHT NOW.

MADDOX>> HUGH, YOU ARE TOO SMART TO FOLLOW NATIONAL POLLS. YOU AND I KNOW THE RACE IS ABOUT THE BIG EIGHT STATES THAT HAVE MOST OF THE ELECTORAL VOTE. IT'S CALIFORNIA, FLORIDA, OREGON --

HEWITT>> AND THAT'S MOSTLY REPUBLICAN RIGHT NOW.

MADDOX>> NO, ACTUALLY IT'S NOT.

HEWITT>> AND FLORIDA, TEXAS, PENNSYLVANIA, OHIO, MICHIGAN, ARE ALL BUSH STATES SOLID.

MADDOX>> WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOSE FLORIDA?

HEWITT>> WELL, OKAY, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER. TELL ME ABOUT OUR OLD FRIEND ON THIS PROGRAM, IRISH, MYSTIC, RADICAL, LEFTIST, SDS FOUNDER TURNED STATE SENATOR, TURNED ASSEMBLYMAN, TURNED ELECTRIC CAR DRIVING AND --

MADDOX>> CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST --

HEWITT>> -- CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR, OUR FAVORITE LEFT-WING GUY FROM THE WEST SIDE, TOM HAYDEN.

MADDOX>> TOM HAYDEN. WELL, THE RUMOR IS, I GOT SOMETHING IN THE MAIL THE OTHER DAY. IT WAS BASICALLY A "DRAFT TOM HAYDEN FOR THE CITY COUNCIL". I READ IT. I --

HEWITT>> A DRAFT.

MADDOX>> "LET'S DRAFT TOM HAYDEN". TOM HAYDEN HAS THIS HISTORY, HE HAS THESE IDEAS, WE NEED HIM. SO THERE'S THE MOVEMENT GOING ON IN THE CITY OF LA AMONGST A NUMBER OF WEST SIDE PEOPLE, SENDING OUT MAIL, CALLING PEOPLE, TRYING TO ENCOURAGE TOM HAYDEN TO COME OUT OF RETIREMENT. REMEMBER, HE DECIDED HE WANTED TO LEAVE SACRAMENTO. HE COULDN'T GET BILLS SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR. HE THOUGHT THE WHOLE PROCESS UP THERE WAS CORRUPTED. SO NOW THE MOVE IS GET TOM HAYDEN ON THE CITY COUNCIL. LET ME TELL YOU, IF TOM HAYDEN'S ON THE CITY COUNCIL, HE'S ON TV EVERY NIGHT AND IT WILL REALLY BRING A LOT OF EXCITEMENT AND A LOT OF ENERGY TO LA CITY HALL.

HEWITT>> WELL, HE COULD HAVE A PUBLIC ACCESS SHOW ANY TIME HE WANTS. THE LA CITY COUNCIL'S NOT EXACTLY GOT THE RATINGS. HERE'S MY QUESTION. THE CULTURE OF THE LA CITY COUNCIL. PONDEROUS, BYZANTINE. WHO'S FERRARO? WHAT DOES LAURA CHICK THINK? WHAT'S JOEL WACHS GOING TO TALK ABOUT TODAY? IS TOM HAYDEN CUT OUT FOR TRASH COLLECTION? IS HE CUT OUT FOR WHETHER OR NOT WE NEED TO CHARGE PEOPLE TO REMOVE BRUSH VEGETATION IN THEIR BACK YARDS? THESE ARE THE ISSUES OF THE CITY COUNCIL.

MADDOX>> NO, THE CITY COUNCIL IS ABOUT POLICE, FIRE, PUBLIC SAFETY, AND THE CITY COUNCIL'S ALSO ABOUT DEVELOPMENT. TOM HAYDEN HAS A HISTORY OF ONE WHO'S VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT, SO HE WILL BE ONE OF THOSE GUYS TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE REASONABLE DEVELOPMENT. TOM HAYDEN'S BEEN VERY OUTSPOKEN ABOUT THE POLICE CORRUPTION SCANDAL AND SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WITH MINORITY COMMUNITIES AND LAPD. SO I THINK TOM HAYDEN, ON THESE HIGH PROFILE ISSUES, WILL BE GOOD. NOW REMEMBER, WITH TERM LIMITS IN THE YEAR 2001, HUGH, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A BRAND NEW CITY COUNCIL AND A BRAND NEW MAYOR. TOM HAYDEN HAS A GOOD CHANCE OF WINNING. NOW THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE RUMORED TO RUN AGAINST HIM, BUT HE'S THE CANDIDATE TO BEAT.

HEWITT>> EXIT QUESTION FOR YOU, THOUGH. IF YOU'RE A CONSTITUENT OF TOM HAYDEN AND THE LIGHT'S BURNED OUT OUT ON YOUR STREET OR YOUR TRASH ISN'T GETTING PICKED UP, ARE YOU HAPPY TO HAVE TOM HAYDEN OR WOULD YOU PREFER A CLASSIC CONSTITUENT SERVICE GUY IN THE MOLD OF A JOEL WACHS WHO, IF THE PHONE RINGS, HE PICKS IT UP? OR WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE TOM HAYDEN, WHO PROBABLY HASN'T EVER DONE ANY WORK FOR CONSTITUENTS IN HIS LIFE?

MADDOX>> I DON'T KNOW. HIS RECORD AS A LEGISLATOR IN TERMS OF SERVING HIS DISTRICT OFFICE, FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD BY PEOPLE, THEY DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB.

HEWITT>> BUT THAT'S POLICY STUFF. IT'S NOT, YOU KNOW --

MADDOX>> A LOT OF TIMES CONSTITUENTS SAY, "I DIDN'T GET MY CHECK, I DIDN'T GET THIS, WILL YOU PLEASE RESPOND". I UNDERSTAND TOM HAYDEN RUNS A REALLY GOOD TIGHT DISTRICT OFFICE OPERATION. LOOK FOR IT.

HEWITT>> WE WILL LOOK FOR THAT. NOW WE'LL LOOK FOR VAL AND WARREN. BACK TO YOU TWO.

WARREN>> WE WANT TO TAKE TIME NOW TO SHARE SOME COMMENTS FROM YOU, OUR VIEWERS, REGARDING RECENT PROGRAMS.

ON TUESDAY, WE REPORTED ON EFFORTS BY GAY ACTIVISTS TO KEEP RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, DR. LAURA SCHLESSINGER, OFF TELEVISION. MARTHA DODGE FELT THAT OUR STORY WAS UNFAIR AND SHE SENT THIS E-MAIL: "YOU LET DR. LAURA'S OPPONENTS SPIN ALL KINDS OF WORDS INTO HER MOUTH AND THEN YOU PRESENTED THOSE STATEMENTS AS BEING ACCURATE. I SUSPECT YOU OWE DR. LAURA EQUAL TIME."

VAL>> AND DON SKOLNIK OF RANCHO SANTA MARGARITA TAKES EXCEPTION TO ONE ASPECT OF OUR WEEKLY POLITICAL COMMENTARIES. HE WRITES: "HUGH HEWITT IS CERTAINLY ENTITLED TO HIS VIEWS, BUT COULD HE STOP BILLING THEM AS THE VIEWS OF ORANGE COUNTY? MORE THAN A FEW OF US DO NOT SHARE HEWITT'S REPUBLICAN SO-CALLED CONSERVATISM."

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON ANY OF OUR PROGRAMS OR SEGMENTS, HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US. WE'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 664-4159

WARREN>> WILLIAM GOLDMAN MAY NOT BE A HOUSEHOLD NAME, BUT IT IS A SURE BET THAT YOU KNOW HIS WORK. HE IS THE OSCAR-WINNING SCREENWRITER OF "BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID" AND "ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN". HE HAS ALSO WRITTEN DOZENS OF OTHER FILMS AND SEVERAL NOVELS AND TWO BOOKS ON THE REAL WORKINGS OF HOLLYWOOD. HIS MOST RECENT BOOK IS TITLED "WHICH LIE DID I TELL?" VAL TALKS WITH WILLIAM GOLDMAN IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

VAL>> TELL ME SOMETHING BASIC. YOU HAVE WRITTEN SOME SUPERB SCREENPLAYS --

WILIAM GOLDMAN>> I'VE BEEN AT IT A LONG TIME.

VAL>> -- LONG TIME, AND YOUR BOOK IS FULL OF STORIES OF HOW THINGS FALL THROUGH AND THEY DON'T WORK OUT AND HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO GET MOVIES MADE. IF IT'S SO HARD TO GET MOVIES MADE, HOW COME THERE ARE SO MANY BAD MOVIES MADE?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW. NOBODY SETS OUT TO SAY, "I KNOW WHAT LET'S DO THIS WEEK. LET'S MAKE A HORRIBLE MOVIE AND LOSE LOTS OF MONEY AND GET FIRED". THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO WORK, BUT YOU CAN'T PREDICT IF A MOVIE IS GOING TO WORK FOR AN AUDIENCE, MUCH LESS IF IT'S GOING TO HAVE ANY QUALITY AT ALL. SO IT'S ALWAYS A CRAP SHOOT.

VAL>> YOU MEAN YOU CAN'T TELL AHEAD OF TIME WHETHER SOMETHING YOU'VE WRITTEN IS GOOD OR BAD OR BETTER THAN SOMETHING --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> NO. THERE WAS AN EXAMPLE OF A MOVIE RECENTLY WHICH WAS FROM LAST YEAR. DISASTER, TESTED TERRIBLY, WILDLY EXPENSIVE, WAY OVER $100 MILLION DOLLARS, THE EXECUTIVES WERE ABOUT TO WALK THE PLANK. IT WAS "STUART LITTLE". IT WAS A HUGE HIT. THEY'RE ALREADY MAKING THE SEQUEL. THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

VAL>> HAVE YOU YOURSELF EVER WRITTEN SOMETHING WHERE YOU SAID, "OH, THIS IS REALLY BAD, BUT I'VE GOT TO DO IT"?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> I'VE ALWAYS ONLY DONE MOVIES I'VE WANTED TO DO. I DON'T LIKE MY WRITING, SO DO I THINK SOMETHING'S BAD? ALL THE TIME.

VAL>> YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR WRITING?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> NO, I DON'T. I DO THE BEST I CAN, BUT I'M INSIDE MY OWN SKIN AND I KNOW ALL THE TRICKS THAT I DO. I KNOW I OVER-SURPRISE, I DO THIS, AND I TRICK PEOPLE HERE, BECAUSE I'M TERRIFIED YOU'LL STOP READING OR WATCHING. I THINK, VERY OFTEN, WHEN I'M INVOLVED WITH MOVIES THAT DON'T WORK, I THINK PROBABLY I DIDN'T TELL THE STORY RIGHT.

VAL>> ONE OF THE STORIES THAT YOU TOLD SUPERBLY, WHICH REALLY MADE YOUR CAREER, PUT YOU ON THE MAP AT LEAST IN TERMS OF THE PUBLIC, IS "BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID".

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> ABSOLUTELY.

VAL>> A CLASSIC.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> CHANGED EVERYTHING.

VAL>> CHANGED EVERYTHING. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE PARTICULAR SCENE WHICH YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK CHANGED YOUR CAREER.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> JUMPED OFF THE CLIFF.

VAL>> TELL US ABOUT IT AS WE'RE WATCHING THIS.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> WHEN I STARTED WORKING ON THAT, THERE WAS NO BUTCH CASSIDY. THERE WERE ONLY A COUPLE OF BOOKS ABOUT IT. THE INDUSTRY HADN'T STARTED IT. IT WAS AN UNKNOWN PIECE OF MATERIAL. NOW THEY'RE VERY FAMOUS.

VAL>> BUT YOU ACTUALLY HAD TO MAKE IT OKAY FOR THE AUDIENCE TO ACCEPT THEIR BEING COWARDLY AND RUNNING AWAY?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> THAT IS CORRECT. THAT WAS MY WHOLE PLOT. THERE'S A WHOLE HALF-HOUR CHASE WHICH ONLY IS ABOUT SAYING LET THEM GO. YOU NEVER KNEW --

VAL>> HERE THEY ARE. THEY'VE FINALLY MADE THE DECISION.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> NOW THEY'RE GOING TO GO.

VAL>> THE ODDS ARE OVERWHELMINGLY AGAINST THEM.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> THAT'S RIGHT. WHEN THEY JUMP AND THERE'S THAT HUGE SPLASH, THAT WAS LIKE THIS HUGE APPLAUSE AND LAUGHTER.

VAL>> LET'S MOVE ON TO ANOTHER MOVIE THAT REALLY CAME FROM YOUR HEART. IN FACT, YOU WROTE THE NOVEL AND, FOR YEARS, YOU STRUGGLED ACTUALLY TO GET THIS INTO --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> "THE PRINCESS BRIDE".

VAL>> "THE PRINCESS BRIDE".

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> THAT'S ONE OF THE TWO MOVIES I'VE WRITTEN THAT I LIKE. I LIKE "PRINCESS BRIDE" AND I LIKE "BUTCH CASSIDY".

VAL>> AND YOU'RE ALSO NOT VERY ANXIOUS TO ACTUALLY SPEND TIME ON THE SET WHEN THE MOVIE --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> I DON'T LIKE BEING ON THE SET. NO, I SCREW THINGS UP. I DO.

VAL>> AS YOU DID --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> AS I DID IN "PRINCESS BRIDE".

VAL>> --IN THIS SCENE THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE RIGHT HERE.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> I WROTE ALL THE DRAFTS OF THE MOVIE. HER DRESS ALWAYS CATCHES ON FIRE. I'M ON THE SET. I'M WATCHING BEAUTIFUL ROBIN WRIGHT AND CARY ELWES COME THROUGH. IT'S A BIG THING. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF TECHNICIANS AND ALL THAT STUFF. THE SMOKE MACHINES ARE GOING. THEY'RE WALKING THROUGH AND HER DRESS CATCHES ON FIRE AND I SCREAM, "HER DRESS IS ON FIRE", RUINING THE SHOT. WHEREUPON THE DIRECTOR SAID, CALMLY, BECAUSE I'D BLOWN THE SHOT, "BILL, HER DRESS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ON FIRE." BUT I TEND TO GET ON THE WRONG -- I DON'T LIKE BEING ON THE SET. A LOT OF WRITERS DO. I DON'T.

VAL>> TELL US ABOUT ANOTHER WONDERFUL MOVIE, BUT A VERY DIFFICULT ONE TO WATCH AT TIMES: "MISERY".

[FILM CLIP]

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> WELL, "MISERY" IS STEPHEN KING AND I THINK HE'S FABULOUS ESPECIALLY WHEN HE'S DEALING WITH REAL MONSTERS, NOT SUPERNATURAL MONSTERS. THIS MOVIE I TOOK -- THERE'S A SCENE IN THE BOOK WHERE KATHY BATES CUTS OFF JIMMY CAAN'S FEET.

VAL>> IN THE BOOK?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> IN THE BOOK. I THOUGHT, "OH, MY IT'S THE MOST AMAZING SCENE. THE AUDIENCE WILL" -- SO ROB REINER AND HIS PARTNER, ANDY [SCHEINDLIN], TAKE THE SCRIPT AND REWRITE IT SO SHE ONLY BREAKS HIS ANKLES. I KNOW THEM WELL AND I SCREAMED AT THEM, "YOU'VE RUINED IT, YOU'VE RUINED IT" AND THEY SAID NO.

VAL>> NOW YOU REALIZE THAT ACTUALLY CHOPPING OFF THE FEET WOULD HAVE BEEN --

WILLIAM GOODMAN>> TERRIBLE.

VAL>> -- TOO MUCH. WHY WOULD IT HAVE BEEN SO TERRIBLE?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> BECAUSE WARREN BEATTY WAS AT ONE TIME GOING TO DO IT AND INTERESTED IN DOING IT. HE SAID, "I'LL PLAY IT, BUT KNOW THAT THE GUY'S A LOSER. HE'S A CRIPPLE FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE." AND THAT WASN'T WHY WE DID IT. IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF THE HORRIBLENESS WAS JUST TOO AWFUL.

VAL>> A WRITER WHO REALLY LOVES WRITING WANTS TO CONTROL THE FINAL PRODUCT, SO WHY WOULD A WRITER WHO REALLY WANTS HIS OR HER WORK TO TURN OUT THE WAY THEY WANT, WHY WOULD THEY EVER WANT TO DO A SCREENPLAY --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> THEY WOULDN'T. A LOT OF WRITERS BECOME DIRECTORS SIMPLY FOR CONTROL. I NEVER WANTED THAT BECAUSE I WAS WRITING A LOT OF NOVELS IN THOSE DAYS. USUALLY WHEN I'M DONE WITH A SCRIPT, I'VE WRITTEN IT SO OFTEN I'M SO SICK OF IT. I KNOW IT PRETTY MUCH BY HEART. THE IDEA OF DEALING WITH IT FOR ANOTHER YEAR, DEALING WITH ACTORS, IS NOT SOMETHING THAT EVER APPEALED TO ME. BUT I THINK YOU DO IT FOR CONTROL. IT IS BASICALLY RIGHT NOW, FOR GOOD OR EVIL, FOR GOOD OR ILL, IT'S THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER HIGHLY COMPENSATED FORM OF WRITING ON EARTH.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU DO IT FOR THE MONEY?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> NO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS, EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE IN THE MOVIE BUSINESS NOW. THAT'S DIFFERENT. WHEN I WAS A KID, MOVIES WERE OUR GUILTY PLEASURES. NOW, NOBODY WANTS TO WRITE NOVELS. NOBODY WANTS TO WRITE FOR THE THEATER. THEY WANT TO WRITE MOVIES. MOVIES ARE THE CENTER OF OUR CULTURE AND, SINCE WE CONTROL THE WORLD WITH MOVIES, OUR MOVIES ARE THE -- IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT CHANGES THAT'S HAPPENED SINCE I STARTED WORK, SINCE I STARTED WRITING IN 1956.

VAL>> AGEISM. YOU'RE WORKING, YOU'RE BACK AT WORK --

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> YES. 68 YEARS OLD, STILL HERE. THERE'S A GREAT STEPHEN SONDHEIM SONG, "I'M STILL HERE, GOOD TIMES AND BUM TIMES, I'VE SEEN THEM ALL, MY DEAR, I'M STILL HERE." IT'S AMAZING. THEY DON'T LIKE US. ALL THE STUFF YOU HEAR ABOUT AGEISM IS TRUE. THEY DON'T WANT US, WE COST A LOT, WE'RE CRANKY --

VAL>> MEANING OLDER, EXPERIENCED TYPES?

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> OLDER, EXPERIENCED PEOPLE. I MEAN, IT'S REALLY -- I'M JUST THRILLED THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE STILL WANT ME AND THAT WILL END AGAIN. ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I'VE SURVIVED FOR AS LONG AS I HAVE IS I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING AND I DON'T THINK A GREAT DEAL -- I THINK THE MINUTE YOU BELIEVE, OUT HERE, THAT YOU'RE WONDERFUL, IT'S OVER. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS NOW IS PEOPLE GET SO PRAISED. EVERYBODY SAYS YOU'RE A GENIUS, YOU'RE FABULOUS, YOU'RE THIS, YOU'RE THAT. I HATE THE WORD -- WHEN I READ YOUNG DIRECTORS ARE GENIUSES, I THINK, "WAIT A MINUTE. LET'S LET TIME DECIDE THAT."

VAL>> WILLIAM GOLDMAN, AUTHOR OF "WHICH LIE DID I TELL?", THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STOPPING BY.

WILLIAM GOLDMAN>> THANK YOU. WASN'T IT WONDERFUL SEEING KATHY BATES AGAIN?

VAL>> IT WAS GREAT.

WARREN>> SO, DON'T BELIEVE YOUR OWN REVIEWS.

VAL>> ABSOLUTELY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE GOOD.

WARREN>> BUT TIME WILL BE GOOD TO HIM. HE'S HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY CAREER.

VAL>> TIME WILL BE VERY GOOD TO HIM. HIS MOVIES, YOU CAN WATCH THIRTY YEARS LATER. "BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID" IS REALLY WONDERFUL. BUT EVEN HE WENT THROUGH A NINE-YEAR DRY SPELL WITH NO MOVIES WHERE HE HIMSELF CALLED HIMSELF A LEPER IN HOLLYWOOD. BUT HE'S BACK NOW AND DOING FANTASTIC.

WARREN>> IT IS HOLLYWOOD WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

VAL>> YOU KNOW IT.

WARREN>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

COMING UP MONDAY ON WHICH WAY LA, IT IS TIME AGAIN FOR THE CENSUS. WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR AMERICA TO COUNT NOSES? WE'LL TALK ABOUT POLITICAL POWER, THE DISTRIBUTION OF MONEY AND HOW WE FIGURE OUT JUST WHO WE ARE. THAT'S MONDAY.

KCRW 89.9 FM, WHICH WAY LA
WEEKDAYS FROM 1-2 P.M.
REBROADCAST AT 7:00 P.M.

VAL>> FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND. WATCH THE OSCARS -- MAYBE.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING CORPORATIONS AND FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.


GTE
A COMPANY COMMITTED TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXCELLENCE AND AN OPEN DIALOGUE AMONG ALL PEOPLE.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

TO REACH US AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, CALL 323-644-4159. SEND US AN E-MAIL TO LIFE AND TIMES@KCET.ORG OR LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG TO SEND MESSAGES OR DOWNLOAD TRANSCRIPTS OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.