7/04/00

LC000704

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> WE SET OUT TO SHOW YOU HOW MUCH YOU COULD LEARN ABOUT SOMEBODY'S LIFE JUST BY USING A KEYBOARD AND A LITTLE KNOW-HOW.

GAY>> IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, THE INTERNET. A WEALTH OF INFORMATION AT OUR FINGERTIPS THAT ALSO OFFERS INFORMATION ABOUT US TO EVERYONE ELSE. PERSONAL PRIVATE INFORMATION. LIKE IT OR NOT, IT'S ALL EASILY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH A KEYBOARD.

CAROLE LANE>> LIKE HERE I'VE ALREADY GOT HIS ADDRESS IF THIS IS, IN FACT, HIM. HIS WIFE'S NAME IS AMY? THEN THAT'S THEM.

VAL>> AND ARE YOU READY FOR THE NEXT GENERATION OF CREDIT CARDS THAT KEEPS TABS ON YOU?

PHILIP BRUCE>> THESE CREDITS CARDS ARE PART OF A BRAVE NEW WORLD THAT'S ALREADY SWEPT ACROSS EUROPE AND IS NOW MOVING FAST TOWARD THE U.S., A WORLD WHERE VOLUMES OF PERSONAL INFORMATION CAN BE STORED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE. BUT IF THE CARDS KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT YOU, ARE THEY TOO SMART FOR YOUR OWN GOOD?

STEVE WHITNEY>> I KNOW, AT LEAST ON ONE OCCASION, A STUDENT CAME IN AND PRESENTED ME WITH HIS CARD AND HE HAD LITERALLY TAKEN A PENKNIFE OR SOMETHING AND GOUGED THE LITTLE COMPUTER CHIP OUT OF IT. HE WAS SO FRIGHTENED BY THAT CONCEPT.

VAL>> "YOUR PRIVACY FOR SALE", A ONE-HOUR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT SPECIAL IS NEXT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS SPECIAL ONE-HOUR EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, "YOUR PRIVACY FOR SALE". WE'LL BE LOOKING AT HOW PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT YOU IS COLLECTED, BOUGHT AND SOLD, OFTEN WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

VAL>> YOU REVEAL THIS INFORMATION VOLUNTARILY EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A TRANSACTION. IT COULD BE ANYTHING, LIKE APPLYING FOR A LOAN, SETTING UP A NEW ACCOUNT, USING A CREDIT CARD, BUYING ONLINE, EVEN DONATING TO A CHARITY. IS THIS INFORMATION-GATHERING HARMFUL AND DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL WHAT HAPPENS TO IT?

WARREN>> YOU KNOW, YOU LEAVE BITS AND PIECES OF YOUR LIFE ON FILE THROUGHOUT THE NORMAL COURSE OF LIVING. NOTHING OMINOUS ABOUT THAT, BUT WHEN YOU ADD IT ALL TOGETHER, IT CAN REVEAL MORE ABOUT YOU THAN YOU MIGHT LIKE. WE ASKED A PERSON WHO DOES THIS FOR A LIVING TO GIVE US A DEMONSTRATION AND GAY YEE HAS THIS REPORT.

GAY YEE>> IT'S A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD, THE INTERNET, A WEALTH OF INFORMATION AT OUR FINGERTIPS THAT ALSO OFFERS INFORMATION ABOUT US TO EVERYONE ELSE, PERSONAL PRIVATE INFORMATION. LIKE IT OR NOT, IT'S ALL EASILY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WITH A KEYBOARD. TO FIND OUT JUST HOW EASY, WE WENT TO CAROLE LANE. SHE WROTE A BOOK ON HOW TO FIND PERSONAL INFORMATION ONLINE CALLED "NAKED IN CYBERSPACE".

OKAY, CAROLE, I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU THE NAME OF MY BOSS. IT'S AL OR ALFREDO CORRAL, AND I WANT YOU TO GIVE ME THE DIRT ON HIM.

CAROLE LANE>> OKAY.

GAY YEE>> WE GAVE HER THE NAME OF OUR EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, AL CORRAL, AND A $100 BUDGET.

CAROLE LANE>> OKAY. THE FIRST THING I WOULD DO IS GO TO YOUR COMPANY.

GAY YEE>> LANE BEGAN BY LOCATING INFORMATION RIGHT AWAY ON OUR OWN LIFE AND TIMES WEB SITE.

CAROLE LANE>> THE FIRST THING I FOUND IS THAT THERE'S A WHOLE ARTICLE ABOUT HIM AT THE COMPANY SITE.

GAY YEE>> ARMED WITH CLUES, LANE MOVED ON TO NEWSHUNT.COM. SHE FOUND A NEWSPAPER ARTICLE FROM 1997 WHEN CORRAL WAS A NEWS DIRECTOR AT A SAN FRANCISCO TV STATION.

CAROLE LANE>> AND THIS HAS HIS AGE MENTIONED, SO NOW I CAN PRETTY MUCH FIGURE OUT WHAT YEAR HE WAS BORN IN. OH, AND HERE'S A MENTION OF HIS EX-WIFE'S NAME, HIS CURRENT WIFE'S NAME, HIS SISTER'S NAME...

GAY YEE>> THE ARTICLE ALSO MENTIONED WHERE EACH OF THE WOMEN WERE EMPLOYED. A CHECK OF PUBLIC RECORDS WAS NEXT. YOU HAVE TO PAY AT KNOWX.COM, BUT IT'S A FAVORITE OF ATTORNEYS AND PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS.

CAROLE LANE>> OKAY, NOW FOR $1.00, I CAN FIND OUT WHERE EVERYBODY WITH THAT NAME...

GAY YEE>> WITHIN MOMENTS, WE KNEW WHERE AL LIVED, THE SQUARE FOOTAGE OF HIS HOUSE AND HOW MUCH IT COST.

CAROLE LANE>> LIKE HERE I'VE ALREADY GOT HIS ADDRESS IF THIS IS, IN FACT, HIM. HIS WIFE'S NAME IS AMY? THEN THAT'S THEM.

GAY YEE>> A JOG TO A REVERSE DIRECTORY AND WE KNEW WHO HIS NEIGHBORS WERE.

CAROLE LANE>> OKAY. SO HERE'S ONE OF THE NEIGHBORS, ANOTHER NEIGHBOR, ANOTHER NEIGHBOR, ANOTHER NEIGHBOR. THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON THE SAME BLOCK.

GAY YEE>> WHILE NONE OF THIS INFORMATION WAS SCANDALOUS, IT WAS STILL INFORMATION YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO FALL INTO THE WRONG HANDS.

CAROLE LANE>> THIS IS ANOTHER WAY PEOPLE GET STALKED, SO YOU NEED TO WATCH WHERE YOU'RE LEAVING TRACKS AND ALSO, THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW YOU, MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE AWARE NOT TO SHARE YOUR INFORMATION.

GAY YEE>> BUT THAT MAY NOT BE HELPFUL, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE ARE INFORMATION BROKERS WHO WORK AS PRIVATE DETECTIVES ON THE NET. SOME EVEN ADVERTISE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS FOR A FEE, OF COURSE, AND THE AVERAGE PERSON HAS NO IDEA HE OR SHE HAS LEFT THIS TRAIL OF FOOTPRINTS.

CAROLE LANE>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO GO THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT LEAVING TRACKS WHEREVER THEY'RE GOING, WITHOUT LEAVING PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHO THEY ARE, WHERE THEY ARE, WITHOUT LEAVING RECORDS ON DATABASES.

GAY YEE>> WE CONCERN OURSELVES ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF INDIVIDUAL STALKERS SNOOPING INTO OUR LIVES, BUT TRUTH BE TOLD, OUR PERSONAL INFORMATION IS BEING STALKED ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB EVERY DAY WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE. EVERY TIME A VISITOR CLICKS ON A WEB SITE, COMPANIES ARE GLEANING INFORMATION FROM THAT USER FOR MARKETING PURPOSES AND THAT INFORMATION WILL GO TO OTHER COMPANIES.

LANCE COTTRELL>> THIS LINK ON OUR SITE SHOWS WHAT INFORMATION CAN BE GATHERED ABOUT YOU IN A SINGLE VISIT TO A WEB SITE.

GAY YEE>> LANCE COTTRELL OF THE INTERNET PRIVACY SERVICE, ANONYMIZER, SAYS A HUGE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION IS PICKED UP FROM OUR COMPUTERS JUST BY CLICKING ON A WEB SITE.

LANCE COTTRELL>> AND HERE IT IS. THREE PAGES OF INFORMATION. THIS IS A PROBLEM AFFECTING EVERYONE ALL THE TIME. WHENEVER YOU GO TO A WEB SITE OR GO TO FILL OUT A FORM OR PARTICIPATE IN A NEWSGROUP, ANYTHING ONLINE IS BEING GATHERED, HARVESTED, ARCHIVED AND USED TO BUILD A DETAILED PROFILE OF YOU BECAUSE YOUR INFORMATION IS VERY VALUABLE TO A LOT OF COMPANIES.

GAY YEE>> LIKE YOUR INTERNET ADDRESS. THAT'S LIKE A PHONE NUMBER THAT CONSISTS OF A STRING OF NUMBERS WHICH CAN BE DECODED TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR COMPUTER, YOUR INTERNET CONNECTION AND YOUR LOCATION. THE SITES OFTEN ALSO TRY TO SET A COOKIE ON YOUR COMPUTER TO ACT LIKE A SPY, RECORDING INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR TASTES AND YOUR WHEREABOUTS ON THE WEB. AND LIKE THIS ONE FROM A CNN WEB SITE, MOST COMPUTER COOKIES HAVE A LONG SHELF LIFE.

LANCE COTTRELL>> IT'S GOING TO LAST UNTIL DECEMBER 30, 2037.

GAY YEE>> ADVERTISERS SAY COOKIES AREN'T ALL BAD. IN FACT, THEY PROVIDE SOME ADVANTAGES SUCH AS TARGETING CONSUMERS. BUT COTTRELL SAYS FOR WHAT WE GAIN IN IMPROVED MARKETING, WE LOSE IN PRIVACY.

LANCE COTTRELL>> RIGHT NOW, PERHAPS THEY'RE ONLY USING IT TO TARGET ADS AT YOU, BUT THIS INFORMATION IS GOING TO THE DATABASES THAT ARE GOING TO LAST FOR 20 OR 30 YEARS, IF NOT LONGER. THIS INFORMATION IS JUST GOING TO CONTINUE TO ACCUMULATE. IT WILL BE SOLD, IT WILL BE SHARED, AND THE MORE OF THIS INFORMATION ACCUMULATES, THE MORE DETAILED THE PROFILE OF YOU BECOMES.

GAY YEE>> SOME SITES DO HAVE PRIVACY POLICIES THAT EXPLAINS HOW INFORMATION IS COLLECTED AND WHAT'S DONE WITH IT, BUT COTTRELL SAYS THERE'S NO ENFORCEMENT.

LANCE COTTRELL>> IN ADDITION TO THAT, MOST PRIVACY POLICIES STATE THAT THEY ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE. SO THEY'RE GATHERING THE INFORMATION TODAY AND THEY SAY WE DON'T SELL IT TO ANYONE TODAY, BUT TOMORROW THEY COULD TAKE THAT WHOLE ARCHIVE OF INFORMATION AND SELL IT TO ANYONE AND THAT WOULD NOT BE VIOLATING THEIR PRIVACY POLICY AT ALL.

GAY YEE>> IT'S A TROUBLING SCENARIO, SAY CONSUMER ADVOCATES. PEOPLE ARE BEING TRACKED BY COMPANIES WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND MOST OF THE TIME WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, AND WHO KNOWS WHERE IT WILL ALL END UP. I'M GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE CONCERNS WE WILL ADDRESS TONIGHT WITH THE HELP OF OUR GUESTS IN OUR STUDIO. THEY ARE EUGENE VOLOKH. HE IS A PROFESSOR AT UCLA LAW SCHOOL. HIS SPECIALTIES INCLUDE FREE SPEECH LAW AND HE WORKED FOR TWELVE YEARS AS A COMPUTER PROGRAMMER. AND BETH GIVENS. SHE IS FOUNDER AND DIRECTOR OF THE PRIVACY RIGHTS CLEARINGHOUSE. THE PRC IS A CONSUMER INFORMATION RESEARCH AND ADVOCACY PROGRAM BASED IN SAN DIEGO.

WARREN>> ALSO WITH US TONIGHT IS EDDY SANDERS, A STAFF WRITER FOR THE LOS ANGELES TIMES WHO FREQUENTLY WRITES ABOUT PRIVACY ISSUES AND FINANCIAL SERVICES, AND SHEILA COLCASURE, FAIR INFORMATION PRACTICES ADVOCATE FOR AXCIOM. AN INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION BASED IN LITTLE ROCK, ARKANSAS, IT COLLECTS AND MARKETS DATABASES ON CONSUMERS. ACCORDING TO SOME ESTIMATES, AXCIOM'S DATABASE INCLUDES 95 PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU. GLAD TO HAVE YOU HERE. LET ME START, SHEILA, WITH YOU. IS THIS HOW YOU DO IT? DO YOU HAVE LITTLE SPIES THAT ARE COLLECTING ALL OF THIS INFORMATION ON US AND ARE YOU BUYING AND THEN SELLING IT TO OTHER PEOPLE?

SHEILA COLCASURE>> NO, WE ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE SPIES. WE ACTUALLY EXCEED EVERY COMPLIANCE MEASUREMENT IN THOSE STATE LAW, FEDERAL LAW, FEDERAL REG AND INDUSTRY STANDARDS. WE EXCEED ALL OF THEM. WE'RE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT THE ISSUE AND, AS I SAID, WE'RE SERIOUS ABOUT --

WARREN>> WHAT DO YOU DO?

BETH GIVENS>> YEAH, HOW DOES IT WORK, YOUR COMPANY?

SHEILA COLCASURE>> WELL, WE BUY DATA FROM DATA VENDORS THAT WAS COLLECTED UNDER COMPLIANT MEANS. WE AUDIT THAT, WE ENSURE THAT AND THEN WE BUILD AN AGGREGATE DATA FILE. WE QUALIFY EACH AND EVERY CLIENT WE SELL TO. WE QUALIFY THE VERY SPECIFIC APPLICATION OF THE DATA TO MAKE SURE IT'S A RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS USE.

VAL>> BUT WHAT IF I SUBSCRIBE TO A MAGAZINE AND NOW I'M ON THEIR MAILING LIST AND YOU ACQUIRE THEIR MAILING LIST AND I HAVE NO IDEA YOU'VE ACQUIRED THEIR MAILING LIST. NOW I'M ON YOUR DATABASE AND I NEVER KNEW IT.

SHEILA COLCASURE>> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT COULD TYPICALLY HAPPEN. THINK ABOUT IT.

VAL>> SO WOULD YOU TELL ME, WOULD YOU INFORM ME, "OH, BY THE WAY, VAL ZAVALA, YOU ARE NOW ON OUR DATABASE. YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF OPTING OUT"?

SHEILA COLCASURE>> YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY OPT OUT OF AXCIOM. WE HAVE BOATLOADS OF CONSUMER EDUCATION WE TRY TO DO. WE PRINT MATERIALS, WE HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL WEB SITE --

VAL>> I CAN OPT OUT? BUT HOW DO I KNOW I'M ON YOUR DATABASE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

SHEILA COLCASURE>> WELL, NOTICE WOULD BE RATHER CUMBERSOME FOR US. WE CAN'T NOTIFY EVERY CONSUMER IN AMERICA, BUT WE PROVIDE AS MUCH NOTICE AND EDUCATION AS WE CAN. WE HAVE AN EDUCATIONAL HOTLINE YOU CAN CALL IN. YOU CAN FIND OUT IF YOU ARE AND YOU CAN EXERCISE YOUR CHOICE AND YOU CAN HAVE ACCESS.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> BUT KNOW, ALSO, WHEN JOURNALISTS DECIDE TO WRITE STORIES, THEY WANT TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT SOMETHING, --

VAL>> LIKE THE STORY ON THE PIECE?

EUGENE VOLOKH>> -- DO THEY HAVE TO GIVE NOTICE TO THE PERSON? DO THEY HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO OPT OUT? DOES HE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL INFORMATION AND SAY, "NO, DON'T WRITE A STORY ABOUT ME." WE SAY NO. WE HAVE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO WRITE THE STORY AND YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT NOT TO --

VAL>> BUT MOST OF THE TIME YOU'RE BEING INTERVIEWED, YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO --

EUGENE VOLOKH>> AND MAY BE, BUT FOR SOME INVESTIGATIVE STORIES, THE PERSON SAYS, "NO, DON'T INTERVIEW ME", BUT YOU STILL SHOW HIM, YOU SHOW HIM SAYING, "NO, DON'T INTERVIEW ME".

WARREN>> DO YOU THINK IT'S EASY ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE TO OPT OUT?

BETH GIVENS>> I DON'T, AND I WANT TO GO BACK TO A POINT I MADE EARLIER ABOUT ALL OF THE INFORMATION RESOURCES AND DATABASES THAT YOU'RE USING TO KIND OF FUNNEL IN TO YOUR 95 PERCENT OF THE AMERICAN POPULACE IN YOUR HUGE COMPUTERS. MOST OF THOSE SITUATIONS, THE INDIVIDUALS WHOSE DATA IS BEING COMPILED, THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THEIR DATA IS BEING COMPILED. THEY DON'T KNOW THEY HAVE AN OPT-OUT OPTION. THERE ISN'T SUFFICIENT NOTICE.

SHEILA COLCASURE>> YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF KNOWLEDGE DEFICIT. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE AMERICAN ECONOMY COMPARED TO THE UK ECONOMY, WE ARE A FREE-FLOW INFORMATION SOCIETY. THE UK IS NOT. IN THE SINGLE INSTANCE OF MORTGAGE LENDER INTEREST RATES IN THE UNITED STATES ALONE, BECAUSE MORTGAGE LENDERS -- I WALK INTO THE OFFICE, THEY CAN DO LIKE THIS...AND HAVE ACCESS IMMEDIATELY TO ACCURATE, RELIABLE, SECURE INFORMATION. OUR INTEREST RATES IN THE UNITED STATES ARE TWO PERCENT LOWER. THAT'S THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO EVERY MORTGAGE HOLDER AND ABOUT A BILLION TO THE U.S. ECONOMY.

EDMUND SANDERS>> IT'S INTERESTING, ALSO, BECAUSE A LOT OF THIS INFORMATION THAT THE COMPANIES ARE GETTING IS WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER PUBLIC INFORMATION. IT'S FROM GOVERNMENT RECORDS, THE REAL ESTATE OFFICES, DEEDS, SELF-REPORTED WARRANTY CARDS, SURVEYS, PRODUCT REGISTRATION CARDS, AND THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN OUT THERE FOR A LONG TIME AND AVAILABLE TO ANYONE, OFTEN FOR FREE.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT AND WHAT'S CAUSING THIS TO BE AN ISSUE IS THAT THEY'RE ALL BEING AGGREGATED TOGETHER INTO FILES ABOUT PEOPLE THAT INCLUDE EVERYTHING TO MAYBE FROM YOUR RELIGION, YOUR ETHNICITY, WHAT TOOTHPASTE YOU LIKE, AND THEY'RE KEPT OVER A MANY YEARS PERIOD. SOME OF THE FILES CAN DATE BACK, I THINK, YOU KNOW, PROBABLY INTO THE 80'S.

WARREN>> BUT THAT'S PRECISELY WHAT MAKES THEM VALUABLE AS A MARKETING TOOL, ISN'T IT?

SHEILA COLCASURE>> RIGHT.

WARREN>> BECAUSE YOU SUDDENLY KNOW A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT ABOUT SOMEBODY OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

SHEILA COLCASURE>> YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

VAL>> WELL, I'D LIKE TO ELABORATE ON THIS IDEA OF THE FACT -- TAKE BANKING. YOU WROTE AN ARTICLE ON IT. IT WAS A VERY GOOD ARTICLE. BANKS USED TO BE VERY PROTECTIVE OF THEIR CUSTOMERS' PRIVACY. NOW, IN FACT, THEY HAVE TREMENDOUS ACCESS TO PEOPLES' CREDIT CARDS AND CHECKING ACCOUNTS. YOU CAN TELL A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT FROM WHAT PEOPLE BUY. AND NOW BANKS ARE NO LONGER BANKS. THEY ARE INSURANCE COMPANIES, THEY ARE STOCKBROKERS, AND SO THAT INFORMATION CAN GO TO, IF YOU CAN EXPLAIN THAT TO PEOPLE, CAN GO TO AFFILIATES OF THE BANKS.

EDMUND SANDERS>> RIGHT. WELL, WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THAT BANKS ARE GETTING INTO ALL THESE OTHER AREAS. INSURANCE, MORTGAGE, CREDIT CARDS, AND WHAT THEY'RE REALIZING IS, THEY HOLD A LOT OF REALLY VALUABLE INFORMATION ABOUT PEOPLE. FINANCIAL INFORMATION, WHAT YOU BUY, HOW YOU TRANSACT, HOW MUCH MONEY YOU MAKE THROUGH YOUR DIRECT DEPOSIT. THEY CAN REALLY DETERMINE A LOT OF THINGS. REALLY, IN THE LAST MAYBE DECADE OR SO, AND INCREASINGLY IN RECENT YEARS, THEY'RE WAKING UP TO THE FACT THAT IT'S VERY VALUABLE AND THEY WANT TO USE THAT TO TRY AND, THEY SAY, BETTER SERVE THEIR CUSTOMERS, ANTICIPATE NEEDS.

VAL>> YOU GAVE A GREAT EXAMPLE. THEY NOW HAVE SOFTWARE THAT CAN ANALYZE AND TRACK FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS, PURCHASES, MUCH MORE EXACTLY. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF THEY FIND OUT THAT YOU SHOP NOT JUST AT A CLOTHING STORE, BUT AT A MATERNITY STORE, THEY SAY, "AHA, SHE'S PREGNANT. TIME TO SEND HER ALL SORTS OF BABY STUFF."

EDMUND SANDERS>> LIFE INSURANCE, OR IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO SELL OR SOMETHING --

WARREN>> BUT, BETH, WHAT CONTROLS DO YOU WANT TO SEE ON THIS?

BETH GIVENS>> WELL, I THINK THE KEY PROBLEM OF OUR TIME IS THE ISSUE OF PROFILING. ALL OF THESE VARIOUS DATABASES CAN BE BROUGHT TOGETHER WHERE THEY COULDN'T BEFORE AND PROFILES CREATE A WHOLE NEW INFORMATION PICTURE CREATED NOW THAT COULD NOT BE CREATED 10, 20, 30 YEARS AGO. I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE ISSUE OF CONTROL.

WARREN>> SO HOW DO YOU ESTABLISH CONTROL?

BETH GIVENS>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU CAN DO IS, WHEN THAT INFORMATION IS FIRST COLLECTED FROM YOU, TELL THE INDIVIDUAL, "WE'RE COLLECTING THIS FROM YOU. WE'RE GOING TO USE IT SUCH AND SUCH A WAY. DO YOU GIVE US CONSENT TO USE IT THAT WAY?"

WARREN>> SHOULD THERE BE A LAW REQUIRING THIS?

BETH GIVENS>> WELL, I THINK IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN THROUGH INDUSTRY SELF-REGULATION, SO YES, I THINK UP-FRONT CONSENT SHOULD BE PROTECTED IN LAW.

WARREN>> WOULD YOU OPPOSE THE LAW?

EUGENE VOLOKH>> WELL, I THINK CERTAIN KINDS OF LAWS WOULD BE CONSTITUTIONAL AND SUBSTANTIVE. THOSE WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. BUT IT'S INTERESTING WHAT WE'RE ASKING. WE'RE ASKING THE GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT OUR PRIVACY. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT TO BE SAID FOR THAT. REMEMBER, THE GOVERNMENT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST THREATS TO OUR PRIVACY. YOU WANT TO TALK BANKING? BANKS HAVE A LOT OF INCENTIVES TO PROTECT THEIR CLIENTS' PRIVACY. AMONG OTHER THINGS, CLIENTS COULD SAY, "LOOK, IF YOU DON'T PROMISE PRIVACY, WE'LL GO TO ANOTHER BANK". BUT WITH THE GOVERNMENT, THE GOVERNMENT CAN TAKE OUR INFORMATION WITHOUT OUR CONSENT. WE CAN'T GO TO ANOTHER GOVERNMENT. THE CENSUS, THE TAX FORMS, ALL THOSE THINGS. THAT'S THE DATA THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CORRECTLY WORRIED ABOUT.

VAL>> I'M GOING TO INTERRUPT YOU FOR JUST A MOMENT. IT'S NOT A FINGERPRINT, BUT IT IS QUITE AN EVENT. THE VISA OR MASTERCARD THAT IS IN YOUR WALLET TODAY MAY SEEM QUAINT COMPARED TO THE NEXT GENERATION OF CREDIT CARDS. WE GOT A GLIMPSE OF THE FUTURE BY GOING TO PASADENA WHERE SMART CARDS CREATED A STIR ON ONE LOCAL CAMPUS. PHILIP BRUCE HAS THE REPORT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AT PASADENA CITY COLLEGE, EVERY STUDENT AND FACULTY MEMBER HAS SOMETHING IN COMMON. THEY ALL HAVE TINY COMPUTERS EITHER IN THEIR WALLETS OR THEIR BACKPACKS OR THEIR PURSES. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE THEY KEEP THEM. WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS THAT THE ENTIRE CAMPUS COMMUNITY IS LINKED BY SOMETHING CALLED A SMART CARD. IT'S A PIECE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY THAT ALLOWS EVERYBODY HERE TO SHARE INFORMATION FASTER THAN EVER BEFORE.

RICHARD ESTRADA>> WELL, THE SMART CARD IS VERY CONVENIENT TO PEOPLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ALL THE INFORMATION IS ON THE CHIP.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THINK OF IT AS A STANDARD ID, ONLY SOUPED UP WITH A MICROCHIP THAT GIVES THE CARD A BRAIN, A TINY PROCESSOR THAT STORES AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF PERSONAL INFORMATION AND CARRIES OUT AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF FUNCTIONS FROM CHECKING OUT LIBRARY BOOKS WITH A SINGLE SWIPE OF THE CARD TO CHECKING IN AT ONE OF THE SCHOOL LABS WHERE THE SMART CARD HELPS THE FACULTY KEEP TRACK OF MORE THAN 4,000 STUDENTS ASSIGNED TO THIS ONE WRITING LAB ALONE. STEPHEN JOHNSON, THE COLLEGE'S ASSISTANT DEAN FOR STUDENT AFFAIRS, SAYS BY THIS FALL STUDENTS CAN ALSO START USING THE SMART CARD AS CASH IN SEVERAL LOCATIONS ON CAMPUS. THE CHIP HAS THE CAPABILITY OF STORING MONEY AS WELL AS INFORMATION.

STEPHEN JOHNSON>> IF A STUDENT WANTED TO USE IT TO BUY A PEPSI FROM THE VENDING MACHINE OR PAY FOR A DAILY PARKING PERMIT OR EVEN HAVE A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY KEPT IN A SECURE PART OF THE CARD FOR BOOKSTORE PURCHASES AND REGISTRATION, ALL OF THAT WOULD BE POSSIBLE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SMART CARDS ARE PART OF A BRAVE NEW WORLD THAT'S ALREADY SWEPT ACROSS EUROPE AND IT'S NOW MOVING FAST TOWARD THE U.S., A WORLD WHERE VOLUMES OF PERSONAL DATA CAN BE STORED IN THE CARDS FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE TO USE AS YOU SEE FIT.

PHILIPPE TARTAVULL>> THE POWER OF THE SMART CARD TODAY IS ABOUT THE SAME AS THE ONE OF THE FIRST APPLE COMPUTER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IF YOU CAN PUT A CHIP IN AN ID CARD, YOU CAN DO THE SAME TO A CREDIT CARD. THAT'S WHERE THE NEW TECHNOLOGY CAN REVOLUTIONIZE THE WAY WE ALL LIVE.

PHILIPPE TARTAVULL>> I THINK THE CAPABILITIES ARE LEFT TO YOUR IMAGINATION.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THE FRENCH COMPANY CALLED OBERTHUR IMAGINES THAT SOMEDAY SOON MILLIONS OF AMERICANS WILL WANT A SMART CARD IN THEIR WALLET. THAT'S WHY OBERTHUR HAS SET UP SHOP OUTSIDE LONG BEACH IN WHAT USED TO BE A WEAPONS COMPONENT PLANT. TODAY IT'S AMERICA'S LARGEST SMART CARD FACTORY, A PLACE WHERE NORMAL CREDIT CARDS GET EQUIPPED WITH MICROCHIPS. THE FINAL STAGE TAKES PLACE IN THE PLANT'S CLEAN ROOM WHERE WORKERS ARE COVERED HEAD TO TOE SO THEY WON'T CONTAMINATE THE TINY MICROPROCESSORS.

FRANCINE DUBOIS>> ANY SPECK OF DUST, ANY PIECE OF HAIR OR ANYTHING COULD ACTUALLY DAMAGE THE CHIPS AND PREVENT THEM FROM WORKING ACCURATELY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT JUST ONE MORE CREDIT CARD? PEOPLE HERE SAY THAT'S LIKE SAYING WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT THE INTERNET. IT'S ALL ABOUT POTENTIAL. SAY YOU'RE ABOUT TO TAKE A TRIP. YOU MAY ONE DAY INSERT A SMART CARD INTO A PORTABLE PHONE AND BUY THE PLANE TICKET RIGHT THERE, BUT YOU WON'T ACTUALLY GET A TICKET. THE AIRLINE WILL DOWNLOAD YOUR CONFIRMATION NUMBER ONTO THE SMART CARD AND IT NOW BECOMES YOUR TICKET. IN CASE YOU GET SICK, THE CHIP HAS ALSO STORED ALL OF YOUR MEDICAL INFORMATION SO THE DOCTOR KNOWS WHAT TO PRESCRIBE. AND IN CASE YOU GET HUNGRY, YOU CAN USE SOME OF THE STORED CASH IN THE ELECTRONIC PURSE TO BUY A CANDY BAR.

PHILIPPE TARTAVULL>> THAT'S THE WAY WE'RE LOOKING AT THE FUTURE AND THE FUTURE IS NOT SO FAR AWAY. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT IF THE CARD CAN DO ALL THIS, IS IT TOO SMART FOR YOUR OWN GOOD? DOES IT KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT YOU AND MAKE IT TOO EASY FOR STRANGERS TO KEEP TRACK OF YOU, ESPECIALLY IF THE CARD GETS LOST OR STOLEN? AT PASADENA CITY COLLEGE, THOSE WERE THE VERY QUESTIONS THAT AROSE WHEN SMART CARDS FIRST ARRIVED ON CAMPUS.

STEVE WHITNEY>> I KNOW, AT LEAST ON ONE OCCASION, A STUDENT CAME IN, PRESENTED ME WITH HIS CARD AND HE HAD LITERALLY TAKEN A PENKNIFE OR SOMETHING AND GOUGED THE LITTLE COMPUTER CHIP OUT OF IT. HE WAS SO FRIGHTENED BY THAT CONCEPT. IT WAS OKAY. NOT A PROBLEM. WE STILL HAD THE INFORMATION THAT WE NEEDED IN THE BAR CODE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IN STEVE WHITNEY'S COMPUTER LAB, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SMART CARD TO GET IN OR OUT. THAT'S HOW THEY TAKE ATTENDANCE AND MAKE SURE STUDENTS HAVE STAYED THE MANDATORY ONE HOUR. MOST OF THE WORRIES WENT AWAY AFTER THE STUDENTS SAW HOW EASY IT WAS TO USE THE CARD AND THE SCHOOL ASSURED THEM THAT ALL PERSONAL INFORMATION WAS BEING KEPT PRIVATE.

STEVE WHITNEY>> I THINK THERE'S ALWAYS A SENSE OF NERVOUSNESS ON EVERYBODY'S PART. THAT MAYBE WE'RE BEING A LITTLE TOO CLOSELY OBSERVED AND A LITTLE TOO CLOSELY WATCHED, BUT THAT SIMPLY HASN'T PROVEN TO BE A PROBLEM HERE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AT PASADENA CITY COLLEGE, SECURITY GETS EVEN TIGHTER THIS COMING AUGUST WHEN THE SCHOOL FINALLY ACTIVATES THE CARD'S COMPUTER CHIP. THAT'S WHEN STUDENTS CAN START USING IT IN PLACE OF CASH ON CAMPUS.

DAVE PITTMAN>> AND IT'S SECURED BY A PIN NUMBER WHEN WE GET INTO BOTH AREAS AND THE WHOLE ENTIRE CHIP IS ENCRYPTED, SO THAT ONLY THE CHIP READERS THAT WE HAVE, AS WE'RE ASSURED BY THE COMPANY, WILL BE ABLE TO READ THAT CHIP.

PHILIP BRUCE>> MEANWHILE, THE FIRST MAJOR ROLLOUT OF THE SMART CREDIT CARD IN THE U.S. IS ALREADY UNDERWAY. IT'S A NEW PRODUCT FROM AMERICAN EXPRESS CALLED THE BLUE CARD. OBERTHUR IS CRANKING THEM OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE AT ITS SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FACTORY. PEOPLE WHO GET THEM WILL ALSO RECEIVE A SPECIAL DEVICE THAT CONNECTS TO A HOME COMPUTER. IT ALLOWS THE USER TO TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF THE CARD'S LATEST SECURITY FUNCTION. THE PROMISE IS THAT NOBODY CAN OUTSMART THE SMART CARD, AT LEAST FOR NOW. FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, I'M PHILIP BRUCE.

WARREN>> DON'T LOSE YOUR SMART CARD.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> ACTUALLY, ONE OF THE ADVANTAGES OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, AS WITH THE CREDIT CARD, YOU LOSE YOUR CREDIT, HOW MUCH HAVE YOU LOST? VIRTUALLY NOTHING.

WARREN>> BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW?

EUGENE VOLOKH>> $500 IN YOUR WALLET, YOU'VE LOST IT PERMANENTLY.

WARREN>> OKAY. HOW DO YOU KNOW, THOUGH, THAT THAT PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT'S IN THERE IS NOT GOING TO SOMEHOW GET MUSHED IN WITH THE OTHER INFORMATION AND MADE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE YOU DON'T WANT TO --

BETH GIVENS>> I THINK COMPARTMENTALIZING IS VERY IMPORTANT. I WAIT FOR THE DAY THAT ONE OF THOSE PASADENA CITY COLLEGE STUDENTS PERHAPS IS CAUGHT VANDALIZING OR DOING GRAFFITI AND THAT SMART CARD MIGHT SHOW THAT, AHA, THIS PERSON WENT TO THE STUDENT CENTER AND IS ON AN ANTIDEPRESSANT, PICKED SOME BOOKS FROM THE LIBRARY THAT SHOWS THAT MAYBE THIS PERSON IS INTO VIOLENT CRIMINAL ACTS, SPENDS MONEY IN WAYS THAT ARE NOT VERY RESPONSIBLE. I THINK THEY COULD PAINT A BIG DAMAGING PICTURE FROM THE TOTALITY OF THAT CREDIT CARD AND THAT'S WHERE THE PROTECTION IS NEEDED.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> WHY ISN'T IT ADVANTAGES, LIKE HELPING CATCH PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIMES?

BETH GIVENS>> BUT THIS IS -- I THINK IT'S -- YOU MENTIONED AMAZON EARLIER. IF SOMEBODY TOOK MY AMAZON PURCHASES OR MAYBE WHAT I TAKE OUT OF THE LIBRARY, I LIKE TO READ ABOUT WHAT THE BAD GUYS ARE DOING BECAUSE I WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEHIND IDENTITY THEFT. I ACTUALLY PURCHASE BOOKS THAT WOULD PAINT ME AS SOMEBODY WHO IS LIKELY TO COMMIT CRIMES.

WARREN>> ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO WHAT BOOKS YOU BUY OR WHAT BOOKS YOU READ?

EUGENE VOLOKH>> WELL, IN FACT, AS PEOPLE SAW IN THE STARR INVESTIGATION, LAW ENFORCEMENT DOES. IN FACT, THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO SACRIFICE.

WARREN>> IS THIS OKAY? THIS IS GOOD?

EUGENE VOLOKH>> WELL, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, YOU MIGHT HAVE A -- THE LAW ENFORCEMENT CANNOT SEARCH OUR HOUSES EVER, CANNOT GET INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT WE BUY. THAT'LL GIVE US MORE PRIVACY. IT'LL ALSO GIVE US A LOT LESS SAFETY.

EDMUND SANDERS>> WELL, A BIG CONCERN OF HAVING ALL THIS INFORMATION KEPT IS THAT IT IS THERE FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO ACCESS WHEN THEY WANT TO. IT MIGHT BE A REASON WHY THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T NECESSARILY TAKE -- YOU KNOW, WITH BANKING, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'VE REALLY ENCOURAGED, IN FACT, FORCED BANKS TO KEEP A LOT MORE RECORDS ON THEIR CUSTOMERS THAN THEY EVER HAD BEFORE. THE SAME IS TRUE WITH ANY OF THESE KINDS OF THINGS. THE GOVERNMENT MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN THE DEMOGRAPHIC DATABASE AND A FILE THAT GOES TEN YEARS ON EVERYTHING I BOUGHT AND WHAT MY INTERESTS ARE. THE SUPERMARKET BUYING CLUBS, FOR EXAMPLE, --

VAL>> OH, YES. TALK ABOUT THEM A LITTLE BIT.

EDMUND SANDERS>> A SITUATION -- WELL, THE CARDS WHERE YOU BASICALLY GET SPECIAL DISCOUNTS AT THE SUPERMARKET FOR USING THE CARD AND THEY KEEP TRACK OF EVERYTHING YOU BUY. THERE HAVE BEEN ISOLATED CASES WHERE THE GOVERNMENT HAS SUBPOENAED THAT INFORMATION. THERE WAS A DRUG DEALER. THEY WANTED TO FIND OUT IF SOMEBODY WAS BUYING A LOT OF PLASTIC BAGGIES. I MEAN, THOSE THINGS GET TREATED -- MAYBE THAT WILL HELP THEM CATCH THE CROOKS, BUT THERE'S A LARGE POTENTIAL THAT --

WARREN>> IS THERE ANY WAY, GIVEN THE NATURE OF OUR ECONOMY, THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO OPT OUT OF THIS IF THEY WANT TO OR IN THIS TECHNOLOGY HERE, WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT, AREN'T WE ALL GOING TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT?

BETH GIVENS>> WELL, LOOK AT THE SUPERMARKET CARDS. THAT'S A GOOD ONE. BASICALLY, AS A GOOD CONSUMER, YOU'RE BEING STRONG-ARMED BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET THOSE DISCOUNTS IS IF YOU GIVE UP THAT PERSONAL INFORMATION.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> YOU DON'T HAVE TO. YOU CAN GO TO TRADER JOE'S, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH DOESN'T HAVE CARDS AT ALL.

BETH GIVENS>> BUT THOSE DISCOUNTS ARE FAIRLY SUBSTANTIAL AND, WHEN YOU'RE ON A TIGHT BUDGET, IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> WE WILL GIVE YOU A DISCOUNT OF $1.00 ON GRAPEFRUIT AND, IN EXCHANGE, GIVE US --

WARREN>> -- GIVE US ALL YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> EXACTLY, AND THE PERSON IS GIVEN A CHOICE. THEY CAN ACCEPT THE DISCOUNT AND GIVE THE INFORMATION OR, IF THEY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY, THEY HAVE TO PAY A LITTLE MORE.

EDMUND SANDERS>> AND THEY REALLY WILL MAKE THAT BARGAIN. THEY WILL DO IT FOR THE CARD. IF YOU GIVE ME INTERNET ACCESS, IF YOU GIVE ME A FREE PC, SURE, YOU CAN WATCH EVERYWHERE I GO ON THE WEB. I MEAN, THAT'S A KEY THING. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT SO CONCERNED NECESSARILY ABOUT "OH, MY PERSONAL INFORMATION IS OUT THERE". WHAT I FOUND, COVERING SOME STORIES LAST YEAR, PEOPLE ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT AND THEY'RE NOT. THEY WANT A PIECE OF IT.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> BUT THEY ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT WITH THE SUPERMARKET CARDS. THEY ARE MAKING MONEY OFF OF IT.

EDMUND SANDERS>> WHEN CALIFORNIA BANKS WERE SELLING CUSTOMER ACCOUNT INFORMATION TO TELEMARKETERS, A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT CALLED ME WEREN'T SO CONCERNED THAT THEIR ACCOUNT INFORMATION AND PERSONAL INFORMATION WAS OUT THERE. THEY WERE MAD THAT THE BANKS WERE MAKING MONEY. IN FACT, PEOPLE HAVE SUED THE BANKS AND MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY WERE DENIED THE BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE MONEY OFF THEIR OWN INFORMATION.

EUGENE VOLOKH>> OF COURSE, NOT THIS STATION, BUT MOST TELEVISION STATIONS, MOST NEWSPAPERS, WHAT DO THEY DO? THEY MAKE MONEY OFF OF REPORTING INFORMATION ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE, SO THERE'S NOTHING UN-AMERICAN OR STRANGE ABOUT PEOPLE MAKING MONEY OFF OF OTHERS' INFORMATION.

WARREN>> DO YOU PAY THE PEOPLE WHO'S INFORMATION YOU HAVE IN THE FILES AT AXCIOM?

SHEILA COLCASURER>> WE DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH CONSUMERS EXCEPT TO PROVIDE A GREAT DEAL OF EDUCATION AND TO REALLY PROMOTE AN EMPOWERED CONSUMER AND TO PROVIDE CHOICE IN ACCESS AND SECURITY AND ADVOCATE GOOD BUSINESS PRACTICES.

WARREN>> THE BEST TIME TO END A DISCUSSION IS WHILE IT'S STILL HOT. THIS HAS BEEN A TERRIFIC PROGRAM, REALLY VERY INTERESTING. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR BEING WITH US. I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE CONTINUING TO TALK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT AFTER WE'RE OFF THE AIR. THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR GUESTS, EUGENE VOLOKH, BETH GIVENS, EDDY SANDERS AND SHEILA COLCASURE, FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

VAL>> AND DO YOU WORRY ABOUT YOUR PRIVACY? DO YOU WANT MORE CONTROL OVER YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION? WE'D LOVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS PROGRAM OR ANY OF THE ISSUES WE COVER HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT. HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
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(323) 953-5555

WARREN>> ONCE AGAIN, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, YOU HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

VAL>> AND PAY CASH.

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