7/06/00

LC000706

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

YOU MAY BE A FEDERAL AGENT OR EVEN A TELEVISION COMMENTATOR, BUT IF YOU'RE BLACK AND DRIVE A CAR, THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE POLICE WILL PULL YOU OVER FOR NO GOOD REASON.

NOAH NELSON>> 42-YEAR-OLD KIM BYOUS IS A YOUTH COUNSELOR. 26-YEAR-OLD CEDRIC MILLIGAN OWNS A HEALTH FOOD STORE. THEY, LIKE MANY BLACK AND LATINO MEN, SAY GETTING STOPPED BY THE POLICE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE IS A COMMON OCCURRENCE.

KIM BYOUS>> WHY DO THEY LABEL US AS A SUSPECT? I'VE BEEN A SUSPECT EVER SINCE I'VE BEEN DRIVING.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WHY DO SOME PEOPLE DENY THAT THE HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPENED? WE TALK WITH ONE MAN WHO SAYS IT'S BASED MORE ON BIGOTRY THAN HISTORY.

MICHAEL SHERMER>> WHEN YOU GO TO THEIR CONFERENCES AND WHEN YOU GO AND MEET WITH THEM PERSONALLY -- THEY'RE RIGHT DOWN IN NEWPORT BEACH, THEY'RE NOT FAR FROM HERE -- WHICH I'VE DONE, AND YOU SIT AND HAVE BEER AND PIZZA WITH THEM, THEY START TALKING AND IT BECOMES CLEAR. YOU HAVE THEIR PUBLIC PERSONA AND THEIR PRIVATE PERSONA. PRIVATELY, THEY DON'T LIKE THE JEWS. THEY REALLY DON'T. THEY THINK THAT JEWS GET FAR MORE ATTENTION THAN THEY DESERVE, THEY HAVE FAR MORE POWER THAN THEY DESERVE FOR THEIR NUMBERS, AND SO ON.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE NOT INTERESTED IN AWARD PRESENTATIONS? WAIT UNTIL YOU HEAR WHAT PATT MORRISON HAS ON TAP.

PATT>> MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN THE OSCARS, MORE ENTERTAINING THAN THE NOBELS. THE GOLDEN AGE OF THE GOLDEN FLEECE AWARD IS BACK, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> AND WHERE IS THE BEST PLACE TO WHILE AWAY A WARM SUMMER NIGHT? FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, THE ANSWER IS AT THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL. MEET THE MAN WHO MAKES A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC IN ONE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S MOST IDYLLIC SETTINGS.

THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR THURSDAY, JULY 6, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION

WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION

DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I’M VAL ZAVALA. WARREN OLNEY WILL RETURN ON MONDAY.

OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, RACIAL PROFILING. IT’S ILLEGAL, YET POLICE STOP EVEN WIDELY RECOGNIZED AFRICAN-AMERICAN AND HISPANIC DRIVERS BASED SOLELY ON THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. A BILL NOW BEFORE THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE ADDRESSES THIS PROBLEM, BUT SOME COMMUNITY ACTIVISTS FEEL IT DOESN’T GO FAR ENOUGH. NOAH NELSON HAS THIS REPORT.

NOAH>> IT’S THE SUBJECT OF BOOKS, ARTICLES, LAWSUITS AND ALSO THE FOCUS OF A CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGN BY THE ACLU. THE SUBJECT IS RACIAL PROFILING, OR THE METHOD SOME POLICE AGENCIES HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF USING TO DECIDE WHO SHOULD BE PULLED OVER FOR A LICENSE CHECK.

KIM BYOUS>> THEY MADE ME GET OUT OF THE CAR, LAY PRONE ON THE GROUND IN THE RAIN IN MY SUIT.

NOAH>> 42-YEAR-OLD KIM BYOUS IS A YOUTH COUNSELOR. 26-YEAR-OLD CEDRIC MILLIGAN OWNS A HEALTH FOOD STORE. THEY, LIKE MANY BLACK AND LATINO MEN, SAY GETTING STOPPED BY THE POLICE WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE IS A COMMON OCCURRENCE.

KIM BYOUS>> WHY DO THEY LABEL US AS A SUSPECT? I’VE BEEN A SUSPECT EVER SINCE I’VE BEEN DRIVING. I’VE BEEN PULLED OVER AT LEAST TWICE A YEAR SINCE I’VE BEEN DRIVING AND THAT’S 25-PLUS YEARS.

CEDRIC MILLIGAN>> DUDE SAY, "I THINK I NEED TO PUT YOU IN THE CAR CAUSE YOU’RE KINDA SMART." I SAID, "I’M NOT SMART, BUT YOU’RE HARASSING ME RIGHT NOW." I’M REALLY FEELING THIS BECAUSE IT JUST HAPPENED A WEEK AGO.

NOAH>> MILLIGAN AND BYOUS BOTH SAY THAT, ALMOST EVERY TIME THEY HAVE BEEN STOPPED, NO CITATION WAS ISSUED. IN OTHER WORDS, THERE WAS NO PROBABLE CAUSE. ACCORDING TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, BLACK AND LATINO DRIVERS ACCOUNT FOR OVER 70 PERCENT OF ALL ROUTINE TRAFFIC STOPS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE ACLU REPORTS THAT BLACK MEN ARE 75 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE STOPPED BY POLICE THAN WHITE MEN.

MELVIN FARMER>> LAW ENFORCEMENT COME IN WITH THE ATTITUDE THAT, HEY, WE DON’T NEED PROBABLE CAUSE TO PULL A BLACK OR LATINO OVER. WE CAN GET THEM FOR DRIVING WHILE BLACK OR WALKING WHILE BROKE.

NOAH>> BEING SUCCESSFUL OR PROFESSIONALLY WELL-KNOWN DOES NOT INSULATE THOSE FOUND GUILTY OF DWB, OR DRIVING WHILE BLACK OR BROWN. LIFE AND TIMES POLITICAL ANALYST, KERMAN MADDOX, BELIEVES HE’S BEEN THE TARGET OF PROFILING.

KERMAN MADDOX>> I’VE BEEN STOPPED ON MANY OCCASIONS. I HAVE NO CRIMINAL BACKGROUND. I DON’T THINK I’M SUSPICIOUS-LOOKING. IN MANY CASES, I’M JUST DRIVING IN THE CRENSHAW NEIGHBORHOOD OR BEVERLY HILLS OR SOMEPLACE LIKE THAT AND COPS JUST STOP ME. TYPICALLY, WHAT THEY TELL ME, NOAH, IS THE REASON I STOPPED YOU IS BECAUSE YOUR VEHICLE MATCHES THE DESCRIPTION OF A VEHICLE INVOLVED IN A CRIME OR YOU -- FIVE FOOT TEN, BLACK MAN, 165 POUNDS, THAT COULD BE ANYBODY -- MATCH THE DESCRIPTION OF SOMEONE WHO WAS INVOLVED IN A CRIME. SO THEY ALWAYS COME UP WITH A REASON FOR STOPPING YOU, BUT, IN MOST CASES, I’VE NEVER GOTTEN A CITATION. THEY DETAIN ME ANYWHERE FROM 15 TO 45 MINUTES AND THEN THEY’RE GONE.

NOAH>> THE CAR I DRIVE ISN’T ATTENTION-GETTING IN ANY WAY, YET IN THE LAST EIGHTEEN MONTHS, I’VE BEEN STOPPED THREE TIMES BY THE POLICE. IN EACH CASE, I WAS ASKED THINGS LIKE WHERE WAS I GOING AND WHAT WAS MY BUSINESS IN THE AREA. IN ALL THREE CASES, I WAS ALLOWED TO DRIVE AWAY WITHOUT BEING GIVEN A TRAFFIC CITATION.

EARL DOTSON>> THIS IS A GOOD HOLD ON SOMEONE. THIS IS A PRESSURE HOLD. HE HAD BOTH MY WRISTS IN A WRIST CONTROL. ANOTHER DEPUTY WAS ASSISTING HIM.

NOAH>> EVEN OFF-DUTY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS GET PROFILED. EARL DOTSON, A FEDERAL AGENT WITH THE INS, WAS RECENTLY STOPPED AND DETAINED BY LA COUNTY SHERIFF’S DEPUTIES FOR PLAYING HIS RADIO TOO LOUDLY.

EARL DOTSON>> WHEN IT HAPPENED TO ME, WHEN I WAS SITTING IN THE BACK OF THE POLICE CAR HANDCUFFED, I WAS IN TOTAL DISBELIEF FIRST OF ALL. I COULDN’T BELIEVE THIS IS 2000 AND THIS IS STILL GOING ON. I STILL FEEL TO THIS DAY VERY BAD, KNOWING THAT I’M ALSO A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER AND IT COULD HAPPEN TO ME. I JUST THINK A CHANGE HAS TO COME.

NOAH>> DOTSON SAYS BEFORE DEPUTIES LEARNED HE WAS A FEDERAL AGENT, HE WAS TOLD TO SHUT UP AND THREATENED WITH A FLASHLIGHT. DOTSON IS NOW SUING THE SHERIFF’S DEPARTMENT IN FEDERAL COURT, CLAIMING HIS CIVIL RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED.

HOWARD PRICE>> I THINK, IN THIS MILLENNIUM, IT’S ABOUT TIME THAT THIS KIND OF THING STOPS, THAT SOMEBODY WILL BE STOPPED BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNIC BACKGROUND OR THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. WE LIVE IN THE MOST DIVERSE MULTI-CULTURAL CITY PROBABLY IN THE WORLD AND IT’S TIME FOR THIS TO CEASE, THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO BE TREATED EQUALLY. IF THIS IS NOT THE CASE THAT’S GOING TO STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING, IT’LL BE THE NEXT CASE, BUT THIS IS GOING TO STOP.

NOAH>> CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR, KEVIN MURRAY, HAS INTRODUCED ANTI-PROFILING LEGISLATION THAT HE SAYS WILL ALTER THE BEHAVIOR OF OFFICERS IN THE FIELD.

KEVIN MURRAY>> WE ARE GOING TO RETRAIN EVERY OFFICER IN THE STATE. THAT IS, SOME 800,000 POLICE OFFICERS AROUND THIS STATE ARE GOING TO BE RETRAINED SPECIFICALLY ON THE ISSUES OF RACIAL PROFILING.

NOAH>> IF PASSED, MURRAY’S BILL WOULD PROVIDE $50 MILLION DOLLARS FOR RACIAL SENSITIVITY TRAINING FOR ALL POLICE OFFICERS IN THE STATE, REQUIRE OFFICERS TO GIVE STOPPED DRIVERS AN I.D. CARD WITH NAME AND BADGE NUMBER ON IT AND ALSO PROVIDE DRIVERS WITH A NUMBER TO CALL TO FILE ANY COMPLAINTS. WHAT THE LEGISLATION DOES NOT DO IS FORCE POLICE TO GATHER RACIAL STATISTICS AND THE PURPOSE OF EVERY STOP, TWO ABSENT PROVISIONS THAT ACLU BOARD MEMBER, GARY WILLIAMS, SAYS MAKES THE BILL WORTHLESS.

GARY WILLIAMS>> THE STATISTICS ARE THE THING THAT DRIVES THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM FOR TWO REASONS. NUMBER ONE, WE FIND OUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH BLACK AND BROWN DRIVERS ARE BEING STOPPED IN DISPROPORTION TO THEIR PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION OR THEIR PERCENTAGE OF THE PARTICULAR KIND OF VIOLATION. NUMBER TWO, COLLECTING THE STATISTICS WILL ALSO, BECAUSE OF THE AWARENESS THAT IT WILL ENGENDER IN OFFICERS, DETER TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THE BEHAVIOR OF THOSE OFFICERS. IF THEY KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE WATCHING, THEN WHEN THEY DECIDE, OH, I’M GOING TO STOP THIS PERSON BECAUSE HE’S BLACK OR HE’S BROWN, THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT IT.

NOAH>> MURRAY BRISTLES AT THE CRITICISM THAT HIS IS A SOMETHING-BETTER-THAN-NOTHING PIECE OF LEGISLATION.

KEVIN MURRAY>> IS THE BILL A PANACEA? IS IT GOING TO FIX THE ENTIRE PROBLEM? I THINK PROBABLY NO LEGISLATION DOES THAT. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THIS WILL DO IS GIVE US SOME PROGRESS RIGHT AWAY. YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE CONTINUED TO FIGHT FOR THE MANDATORY DATA COLLECTION THAT THE OPPOSITION TO THE BILL WOULD LIKE TO HAVE, BUT THEN WE WOULD BE GETTING NOTHING IN THE MEANTIME AND PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE GETTING HARASSED. SO HOPEFULLY WE HAVE SOME IMPROVEMENT AND IT’S A FIGHT THAT WE CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

VAL>> SO, NOAH, EVEN THOUGH THIS BILL HAS BEEN CRITICIZED AS BEING RATHER WEAK, IS IT GOING TO PASS ANYWAY?

NOAH>> IT PASSED EASILY THROUGH THE SENATE. IT’S IN THE ASSEMBLY RIGHT NOW AND IT’S PASSING PRETTY EASILY THERE TOO. THE GOVERNOR HAS ALREADY SAID HE’S GOING TO SIGN THIS, SO THIS BILL’S GOT SOME STEAM BEHIND IT.

VAL>> I SEE, AND YET IT DOESN’T REQUIRE ANY STATISTICS BEING GATHERED? IS ANYBODY GATHERING STATISTICS, EVEN VOLUNTARILY?

NOAH>> THE CHP HAS BEEN ORDERED BY THE GOVERNOR TO TAKE STATISTICS DOWN OF THAT NATURE. HE SENT LETTERS TO MANY POLICE DEPARTMENTS SAYING PLEASE DO THIS, YOU KNOW, AS A COURTESY, AS A RIGHT THING TO DO, BUT THERE’S NO MANDATE FOR THOSE DEPARTMENTS TO DO THAT.

VAL>> I SEE. SO CHP IS GATHERING IT BY ORDER OF THE GOVERNOR AND THOSE STATISTICS SHOULD BE VERY TELLING.

NOAH>> RIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD. WE’LL LOOK FOR THOSE. THANK YOU SO MUCH. INTERESTING REPORT.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW TAKES US TO A TOWN IN THE SAN GABRIEL VALLEY WHERE PEOPLE ARE BEING ASKED TO PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR VIEWS ARE.

>> LOOK AT GLENDALE, LOOK AT DUARTE, PASADENA, WHAT THEIR HILLSIDES LOOK LIKE, AND LOOK WHAT WE HAVE. YOU CAN’T FIND IT IN THE FOOTHILL CORRIDOR ANY PLACE LIKE MONROVIA. I THINK WE’RE THE LAST FRONTIER HERE, THE LAST OPEN SPACE.

VAL>> THAT’S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AT 7:00 P.M.

SO HOW DO WE KNOW WHETHER OR NOT AN EVENT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE, EVEN SOMETHING AS WELL-DOCUMENTED AS THE HOLOCAUST? WELL, THAT’S A QUESTION THAT FASCINATED MICHAEL SHERMER, PUBLISHER OF SKEPTIC MAGAZINE AND PRESIDENT OF THE SKEPTIC SOCIETY. HE AND HISTORIAN ALEX GROVEMAN MADE AN IN-DEPTH STUDY OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED. WARREN TALKED WITH SHERMER ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK, "DENYING HISTORY", IN TONIGHT’S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

WARREN>> ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE A PROFESSIONAL SKEPTIC ON OUR SHOW. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

MICHAEL SHERMER>> THANKS. GOOD TO BE BACK.

WARREN>> MUCH IN THE NEWS, HISTORICAL REVISIONISM AND PARTICULARLY HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM, BUT YOU STARTED THIS PROJECT BEFORE THAT WAS THE CASE. WHY?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> WELL, WE GOT INTERESTED AT SKEPTIC MAGAZINE IN THE HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS BECAUSE WE’RE INTERESTED IN FRINGE MOVEMENTS, WE’RE INTERESTED IN CONTROVERSIAL CLAIMS. THE QUESTION IS, ARE THEY DOING REVISIONISM LIKE HISTORIANS DO, BECAUSE ALL KNOWLEDGE AND HISTORY NEEDS TO BE REVISED AND APPROVED, OR ARE THEY DOING SOMETHING ELSE?

WHAT WE DISCOVERED IN THE PROCESS IS THAT THEY’RE DOING SOMETHING ELSE. THEY’RE DISTORTING THE HISTORICAL RECORD IN A PARTICULAR DIRECTION. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THEY’RE SAYING THAT IT’S NOT THAT THE HOLOCAUST DIDN’T HAPPEN, BUT THEY’RE REVISING IT AND TWEAKING IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT’S VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HISTORIANS DO WHEN THEY REVISE AND TWEAK THE HISTORY OF THE HOLOCAUST.

WARREN>> HOW DO YOU -- THAT’S A COMPLICATED THING TO DEMONSTRATE. HOW DO YOU SHOW IT?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT THAT SUBTLE ONCE YOU GET INTO IT. YOU SEE THAT THERE IS A PATTERN THAT DEVELOPS WHERE THE DISTORTION CONSTANTLY GOES IN ONE DIRECTION. ALL HISTORIANS MAKE MISTAKES, BUT THE MISTAKES GO THIS WAY, THAT WAY, THIS WAY, THAT WAY, THEY’RE ALL OVER THE PLACE, SCATTER-SHOT, AND WE IMPROVE THEM. THAT’S WHAT PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS DO. BUT IN THE CASE OF THE HOLOCAUST REVISIONISTS, THEY ARE DISTORTING CONSISTENTLY IN A PARTICULAR DIRECTION WHERE THEY WANT TO ARGUE THAT SIX MILLION DIDN’T DIE AND THAT GAS CHAMBERS WERE NOT USED AND SO ON. IT’S ALWAYS IN THAT DIRECTION, SO THEY’LL ALWAYS PICK AND CHOOSE EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS THAT PARTICULAR CASE AND IGNORE EVIDENCE THAT CONTRADICTS WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE.

WARREN>> HOW DO WE KNOW -- HOW IS IT THAT YOU HAVE CONVINCED YOURSELF THAT SIX MILLION PEOPLE DIED?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> WELL, I HAVE TO CONFESS, WHEN I WAS READING SOME OF THEIR MATERIAL IN QUIETER MOMENTS LATE AT NIGHT, I THINK, GOSH, I WONDER IF THERE’S SOMETHING TO THIS. I REALLY NEED TO INVESTIGATE IT. AS I DID, I REALIZED THERE IS REALLY NOTHING TO THIS. I MEAN, EVERY ONE OF THEIR CLAIMS WAS PRETTY OBVIOUSLY WRONG. THE WAY WE DO IT IS THE SAME WAY -- THE WAY HISTORIANS OPERATE IS THE SAME WAY CRIMINOLOGISTS WORK. IT’S A CRIME.

IF WE THINK OF THE HOLOCAUST AS A CRIME, HOW DO WE KNOW IT HAPPENED AND HOW DID IT HAPPEN? THE WAY WE OPERATE IS, THERE’S A CONVERGENCE OF EVIDENCE FROM DIFFERENT LINES THAT ARE INDEPENDENT OF ONE ANOTHER. IT’S NOT THAT ANY ONE PIECE OF THE EVIDENCE SAYS THE HOLOCAUST, JUST LIKE THERE’S ALMOST NEVER A SMOKING GUN AT THE CRIME. AFTER A WHILE, THIS PILE OF EVIDENCE WE HAVE HERE STARTS TO CONVERGE INTO A SUSPECT, SOMEBODY WE’RE PRETTY CONFIDENT.

WARREN>> BUT HOW DO YOU COME UP WITH A NUMBER LIKE SIX MILLION? YOU CAN’T GO OUT AND COUNT THAT MANY CORPSES.

MICHAEL SHERMER>> RIGHT. THE SIX MILLION FIGURE, OF COURSE, IN A WAY IS METAPHORICAL. IT’S NOT EXACTLY SIX MILLION. THERE’S A RANGE, AN ERROR BAR RANGE, BETWEEN 5.1 AND 6.2. THIS TELLS ME THAT WE’RE PROBABLY PRETTY ACCURATE WHEN YOU LOOK INTO IT. IF THE NUMBERS BETWEEN ALL THE DIFFERENT HISTORIANS CAME OUT EXACTLY THE SAME, I’D SUSPECT THE NUMBERS WERE COOKED. BUT THE FACT THAT ALL THESE HISTORIANS DIFFER AND THEY ARGUE VERY HEATEDLY AMONGST THEMSELVES, TELLS ME THERE’S SOMETHING TO IT. THE WAY THEY DO IT IS, THEY TAKE EACH LITTLE REGION, COUNTY, DISTRICT, TOWN AND SO ON THROUGHOUT ALL OF EUROPE AND THEY DO DEMOGRAPHIC STUDIES BEFORE THE WAR, AFTER THE WAR, DURING THE WAR, TRANSPORTS, IMMIGRATIONS AND SO ON AND ADD THEM ALL UP AND IT COMES OUT TO THAT RANGE.

WARREN>> WHAT ABOUT THE GAS CHAMBERS THEMSELVES? IT’S OFTEN SAID THAT THEY WERE REALLY THERE FOR SOME OTHER PURPOSE. NO DENIAL THAT THEY WERE THERE --

MICHAEL SHERMER>> -- RIGHT.

WARREN>> -- BUT THAT THEY WEREN’T THERE TO COMMIT GENOCIDE, TO KILL PEOPLE.

MICHAEL SHERMER>> YOU CAN GO TO AUSCHWITZ YOURSELF, THERE IT IS. WELL, THE REVISIONIST DENIERS SAY THAT THE GAS CHAMBERS WERE THERE JUST FOR DELOUSING CLOTHING AND THE CREMATORIA FOR DISPOSING OF BODIES THAT DIED OF OTHER CAUSES. YOU CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBER AND A DELOUSING GAS CHAMBER. HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBERS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE LOCKING DOORS, BIG THICK LOCKING DOORS THAT CLAMP DOWN. THEY HAVE A PEEPHOLE WITH BIG THICK GLASS AND A METAL GRID OVER IT. WHY WOULD YOU NEED THAT FOR DELOUSING CLOTHING? YOU DON’T.

THESE GAS CHAMBERS ARE FLOOR TO CEILING ZYKLON-B STAINED. YOU CAN GO THERE AND SEE IT, THE BLUE STAINING. IT’S VERY DRAMATIC. AND THEY’RE STRUCTURED SUCH THAT THE GAS CHAMBER IS RIGHT NEXT TO A CREMATORIA AND AN AUTOPSY ROOM AND A MORGUE, WHEREAS THE DELOUSING CHAMBERS ARE ALL IN ANOTHER PART OF THE CAMP NOWHERE NEAR AN AUTOPSY ROOM OR A MORGUE. SO THAT TELLS US, IN CONJUNCTION WITH EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS, ORDERS FOR ZYKLON-B, ORDERS FOR GAS-TIGHT DOORS AND SO ON, THAT THE CRIME REALLY HAPPENED.

WARREN>> THERE’S NO EVIDENCE, SAY THE REVISIONISTS, THAT -- OR THE DENIERS, I GUESS, IS WHAT YOU WANT TO CALL THEM -- THAT HITLER EVER SIGNED AN ORDER OR THAT GENOCIDE WAS THE REAL INTENT OF THE NAZI REGIME?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> RIGHT. THIS IS THE THIRD POINT. SIX MILLION DIDN’T DIE, GAS CHAMBERS WERE NOT USED AND THE INTENTIONAL THING. AND THERE IS NO SIGNED DOCUMENT FROM HITLER. WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT, IN 1939 AND EARLY ’40, HITLER GOT IN BIG TROUBLE WITH THE GERMAN PRESS AND THE CLERGY FOR SIGNING DOCUMENTS ORDERING THE EUTHANASIA OF GERMAN FEEBLE-MINDED PEOPLE. SO AT THAT POINT, WE KNOW HE MADE A DECISION NEVER TO PUT IN WRITING THOSE KINDS OF ORDERS, THE ORDER TO EXTERMINATE PEOPLE. BUT WE DO KNOW FROM, AGAIN, THIS SORT OF CONVERGENCE OF LOTS OF LITTLE PIECES OF EVIDENCE FROM HITLER, FROM HIS UNDERLINGS LIKE HIMMLER AND GOEBBELS, THAT AT SOME POINT IN 1941, THE NAZIS MADE THE DECISION THAT GETTING RID OF THE JEWS WAS NOT GOING TO JUST BE DEPORTING THEM, BUT KILLING THEM.

WARREN>> ARE YOU JEWISH?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> I’M NOT. I AM NOT JEWISH. I HAVE AN INTEREST IN THIS ONLY BECAUSE I’M AN HISTORIAN AND A SOCIAL SCIENTIST AND I INVESTIGATE THESE KINDS OF CONTROVERSIAL CLAIMS. YOU KNOW, MAYBE THEY WERE GOING TO BE RIGHT, TURNS OUT THEY’RE NOT. THESE GUYS ARE WRONG.

WARREN>> WHY DO YOU THINK THEY PERSIST AND WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO THEM TO DENY WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE ESTABLISHED FACT?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> WHEN YOU GO TO THEIR CONFERENCES AND WHEN YOU GO AND MEET WITH THEM PERSONALLY -- THEY’RE RIGHT DOWN IN NEWPORT BEACH, THEY’RE NOT FAR FROM HERE -- WHICH I’VE DONE, AND YOU SIT AND HAVE BEER AND PIZZA WITH THEM, THEY START TALKING AND IT BECOMES CLEAR. YOU HAVE THEIR PUBLIC PERSONA AND THEIR PRIVATE PERSONA. PRIVATELY, THEY DON’T LIKE JEWS. THEY REALLY DON’T. THEY THINK THAT JEWS GET FAR MORE ATTENTION THAN THEY DESERVE, THEY HAVE FAR MORE POWER THAN THEY DESERVE FOR THEIR NUMBERS AND SO ON, THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT KNOCKED DOWN A LITTLE BIT --

WARREN>> -- SO, IN SHORT, ANTI-SEMITISM, YOU THINK, IS THE REASON?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> THAT IS A PART OF IT, YEP.

WARREN>> WHAT’S THE OTHER PART?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> SOME OF THEM LIKE TO JUST STIR UP TROUBLE AND THERE’S NO BETTER WAY TO STIR UP TROUBLE THAN SAY THE HOLOCAUST DIDN’T HAPPEN. SOMETHING REALLY CONTROVERSIAL WILL GET PEOPLES’ ATTENTION. SOMETIMES THEY LIKE THAT.

WARREN>> ARE THERE MORE OF THEM HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAN OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> THERE ARE, BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT. WE HAVE THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND OTHER COUNTRIES DON’T. IN GERMANY, SWITZERLAND, FRANCE, AUSTRIA, AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND, FOR EXAMPLE, IT’S AGAINST THE LAW. THESE GUYS WOULD BE ARRESTED. THEIR PASSPORT NUMBERS AND PICTURES ARE AT CUSTOM. THEY WOULD BE ARRESTED THE MOMENT THEY WALK IN THERE. THAT’S WHY THEY’RE IN AMERICA, BECAUSE WE ALLOW IT.

WARREN>> AND THE NAME OF THE BOOK?

MICHAEL SHERMER>> "DENYING HISTORY" FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS. IT’S AVAILABLE EVERYWHERE.

WARREN>> MICHAEL SHERMER, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

MICHAEL SHERMER>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

VAL>> SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK? WERE YOU CONVINCED BY MICHAEL SHERMER’S ARGUMENTS? WE’D LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS OR ANY OF THE STORIES WE COVER ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT. HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG

WWW.KCET.ORG.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT

4401 SUNSET BLVD.

LOS ANGELES, CA 90027

(323) 953-5555

VAL>> IN TONIGHT’S INFINITELY MORRISON, PATT SINGLES OUT SOME AWARD-WINNING PERFORMANCES THAT DESERVE TO BE RECOGNIZED.

PATT>> I DON’T ORDINARILY ENJOY REVIVALS, MUSICAL OR RELIGIOUS, BUT THERE’S ONE COMEBACK THAT’S OVERDUE AND WELCOME. TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AFTER IT WAS CREATED, THE GOLDEN FLEECE AWARD HAS RETURNED. IT WAS THE CREATION OF NOW RETIRED SENATOR WILLIAM PROXMIRE AND, WHILE IT WAS NAMED AFTER AN OBJECT IN GREEK MYTHOLOGY, THE GOVERNMENT WASTE AND FRAUD AND ABSURDITY THAT IT BROUGHT TO LIFE WERE NO MYTHS.

THE AWARD RECOGNIZED CUPIDITY AND STUPIDITY ABOVE AND BEYOND. AMONG THE CLASSICS, $2 MILLION DOLLARS FOR A PATROL CAR, A STUDY OF WHETHER DRUNKEN SUNFISH ARE MORE AGGRESSIVE THAN SOBER SUNFISH, WHY PEOPLE ACT RUDELY ON VIRGINIA TENNIS COURTS, TRANSIT OFFICIALS BEING SENT TO DISNEY WORLD TO LEARN HOW TO MOTIVATE EMPLOYEES. AND AMONG THE BIGGEST, IN 1976, THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS, NEARLY HALF OF WHOSE PROJECTS WENT OVER BUDGET BY AT LEAST 100 PERCENT.

THE AWARD HAS BEEN RESUSCITATED BY A NON-PROFIT TAXPAYERS’ GROUP, OF WHICH PROXMIRE IS HONORARY CHAIR, BUT IN THE DOZEN YEARS SINCE IT WAS RETIRED, IT COULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN OFTEN, NATIONALLY AND LOCALLY. WE NEEDED IT NEARLY A DECADE AGO.

THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS SPENT TENS OF THOUSANDS ON SECURITY IN THE FORM OF BULLETPROOF CARS, SOME OF THEM DRIVEN BY ARMED CHAUFFEURS. THE LEATHER CHAIRS IN THE HEARING ROOM AND THE BLOTTERS ON THE DESKS IN FRONT OF THE SUPERVISORS WERE LIKEWISE BULLETPROOF.

OR SEVEN YEARS AGO WHEN THE DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER, DURING A NINE-DAY STRIKE, SPENT A HALF MILLION DOLLARS, MORE THAN $100 PER PERSON EACH DAY, TO FEED MANAGERS WHO WORKED THROUGH THE STRIKE. SOME MIGHT SAY THERE WAS HIGHER RETRIBUTION. AT LEAST FIFTY OF THESE SUPERVISORS GOT FOOD POISONING.

OR FOR THE FINANCIAL SHENANIGANS SURROUNDING ORANGE COUNTY’S BANKRUPTCY LED BY A TREASURER WHO CONSULTED A MAIL-ORDER ASTROLOGER AND A PSYCHIC ABOUT INTEREST RATES.

THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOLDEN FLEECE, BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE THE AWARD VANISHED, SCIENCE MAY HAVE CONTRIVED A SOLUTION: CLONING. INSTEAD OF ONE, WHY NOT A WHOLE FLOCK OF AWARDS, FOR NATIONAL AND LOCAL OFFENSES? TO ALERT BOTH THE TAXPAYING SHEEP WHO ARE BEING SHORN AND TO EMBARRASS INTO SHEEPISHNESS THE OFFICIALS WHO DO THE FLEECING.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, PATT.

WELL, A SOFT SUMMER NIGHT, BEAUTIFUL MUSIC AND THE PASTORAL SETTING OF THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL. THAT’S BEEN A RECIPE FOR THE PERFECT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EVENING FOR NEARLY EIGHTY YEARS. WELL, THIS WEEKEND MARKS A SPECIAL PERFORMANCE FOR THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL ORCHESTRA AND ITS CONDUCTOR, JOHN MAUCERI, AS THEY PLAY THEIR 200^TH CONCERT TOGETHER. WE TALK TO MAUCERI ON THIS AUSPICIOUS OCCASION IN TONIGHT’S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

JOHN MAUCERI, YOU’RE THE PRINCIPAL CONDUCTOR OF THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JOHN MAUCERI>> MY PLEASURE.

VAL>> YOU ARE SETTING A RECORD BECAUSE THIS SATURDAY YOU WILL BE CONDUCTING YOUR 200^TH CONCERT AND, APPARENTLY, THAT’S QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT. TELL US, HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

JOHN MAUCERI>> I GUESS THAT --

VAL>> -- YOU STUCK IT OUT.

JOHN MAUCERI>> YEAH, I STUCK IT OUT BECAUSE I DID 199 BEFORE. YOU KNOW, IN THE HISTORY OF THE BOWL, I GUESS THE MOST ANYBODY HAD EVER DONE WAS 60. I STARTED THINKING A FEW YEARS AGO ABOUT JUST HOW MANY I’VE BEEN DOING AT THE BOWL, WHICH HAS BEEN BETWEEN 18 AND 25 A SUMMER, AND I KNEW THAT I HAD TO HAVE BEEN PAST 100. THEN WE HAD TO CHECK AND SAID IT WASN’T EASY TO DO. IT GOT UP TO 150 OR SO AND THEN I SAID, NOW WAIT A MINUTE, WE’VE GONE ON FOUR TOURS. LET’S ADD THIS UP. THEN IT SUDDENLY CAME TO 190-SOMETHING. I SAID, WELL, GOSH, THIS SUMMER WAS GOING TO BE MY 200^TH.

VAL>> GOOD THING YOU NOTICED IT BEFORE YOU HIT 200. OTHERWISE, YOU --

JOHN MAUCERI>> -- WELL, YEAH, THEN WE’D HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL 250.

VAL>> SO WHAT DID YOU DECIDE TO DO FOR THIS LANDMARK CONCERT?

JOHN MAUCERI>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT IT WAS NO POINT IN LIKE CELEBRATING ME AND CELEBRATING THE ORCHESTRA IN THAT SENSE, SO THAT WE SHOULD JUST DO ANOTHER REALLY GREAT CONCERT. THE IDEA WAS TO BRING PATTI LUPONE, WHO ACTUALLY HAS PERFORMED WITH US MORE THAN -- SHE’S BEEN OUR SOLOIST MORE THAN ANYBODY IN THE PAST TEN YEARS. I THINK SHE'S BEEN WITH US THREE TIMES AND MADE A RECORDING WITH US AND SHE’S ONE OF THE DIVAS OF BROADWAY.

I THOUGHT WE WOULD MIX HER WITH AUDRA MCDONALD, WHO IS THE HOTTEST YOUNG STAR OF BROADWAY. SHE’S WON THREE TONY AWARDS. I WON ONE TONY AWARD AND SO DID PATTI, SO WE THOUGHT WE’D DO KIND OF A PARTY, A BROADWAY NIGHT IN WHICH WE’D DO SOME OVERTURES, THEY SING ALONE, THEN THEY SING TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME. THEY LOVE EACH OTHER, PATTI AND AUDRA, AND THEY NEVER PERFORMED TOGETHER. SO SINCE WE WERE ALL FRIENDS, WE THOUGHT, WELL, THAT’S THE BEST THING TO DO FOR AN AUDIENCE IS TO SHARE YOUR FRIENDSHIP AND YOUR LOVE WITH THEM. SO SATURDAY NIGHT IS NUMBER 200. IT SHOULD BE GREAT FUN.

VAL>> NOW WHAT KIND OF MARK OR WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP DISTINGUISHES YOUR CONDUCTING, SAY, FROM OTHERS? WHAT’S YOUR STYLE? WHAT’S YOUR MARK?

JOHN MAUCERI>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE A REALLY GOOD QUESTION TO ASK, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO COME TO MY CONCERTS MORE THAN ANYTHING. I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, CONDUCTORS DO BRING A CERTAIN SOUND WITH THEMSELVES. I MEAN, THERE’S SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT OUR BODY AND OUR SPIRIT DOES SO THAT, WHEN WE DO THAT TO AN ORCHESTRA, IT’S DIFFERENT FROM SOMEBODY WHO DOES THAT. IT ACTUALLY MAKES A DIFFERENT SOUND, EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE'S DOING THEORETICALLY THE SAME THING. MOSTLY IT’S A RELATIONSHIP I HAVE WITH THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL ORCHESTRA MUSICIANS. I LOVE THEM VERY MUCH. THE ORCHESTRA WAS CREATED FOR ME AND THAT RELATIONSHIP HITS THE AUDIENCE. SO THIS IS KIND OF A WONDERFUL FEEDBACK OF ENERGY AND THAT’S A REALLY GOOD THING.

VAL>> NOW YOU’RE ALSO KNOWN FOR YOUR RANGE BECAUSE, ON SATURDAY, YOU’RE GOING FROM PATTI LUPONE AND MCDONALD AND THEN SUNDAY NIGHT YOU’RE GOING TO PUCCINI.

JOHN MAUCERI>> RIGHT. "MADAME BUTTERFLY".

VAL>> WOW, THAT’S QUITE A RANGE.

JOHN MAUCERI>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON’T SEE IT THAT WAY. PEOPLE DO TALK ABOUT THAT. YOU KNOW, IT’S DRAMATIC MUSIC. PUCCINI WOULD HAVE BEEN WRITING FILM MUSIC IF HE WERE ALIVE TODAY, FOR SURE. HIS MUSIC IS VERY CINEMATIC.

VAL>> HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRITING FILM MUSIC?

JOHN MAUCERI>> I THINK SO, FOR SURE, YEAH, BECAUSE HE WROTE VERY PICTURESQUE MUSIC THAT DESCRIBES EMOTIONS AND SCENES. YOU KNOW, I’VE BEEN MUSIC DIRECTOR FOR THREE OPERA COMPANIES NOW. MY FOURTH, I START NEXT YEAR, SO OPERA IS AS NORMAL TO ME AS ANYTHING ELSE. BUT IT IS A RANGE. YOU KNOW, FROM THE 4^TH OF JULY WITH GLEN CAMPBELL TO "MADAME BUTTERFLY" THIS SUNDAY NIGHT. BUT, YOU KNOW, "BUTTERFLY" IS THE OPERA I’VE CONDUCTED MORE THAN ANY OPERA. I MEAN, I’VE CONDUCTED AT COVENT GARDEN IN LONDON, IN VIENNA. I MEAN, I’VE CONDUCTED AT A LOT OF PLACES AND IT’S NORMAL FOR ME. SINCE IT’S ABOUT A TREMENDOUS STORY BEAUTIFULLY TOLD, THAT TO ME IS THE SAME THING AS GETTING INTO A LITTLE SONG LIKE GLEN CAMPBELL DOES WHICH TELLS A BEAUTIFUL STORY, BUT IN THREE MINUTES. I JUST HAVE TO TELL THE STORY IN THREE HOURS, SO IT’S A DIFFERENT WAY OF KIND OF SPEAKING AS A CONDUCTOR.

VAL>> I THINK IF PEOPLE DIDN’T GET A CHANCE TO SEE THAT FIREWORKS DISPLAY, WE HAVE SOME VIDEO FROM THAT PARTICULAR CONCERT. YOU ARE ALSO KNOWN FOR BRINGING FILM MUSIC TO THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL ORCHESTRA.

JOHN MAUCERI>> YEAH.

VAL>> IT MUST BE A GOLD MINE IN A WAY FOR YOU.

JOHN MAUCERI>> WELL, IT IS. I MEAN, ONE OF THE SAD STORIES ABOUT LOS ANGELES IS THAT A GOOD PART OF ITS LEGACY IS NEVER PLAYED IN LOS ANGELES AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE WORLD --

VAL>> -- MEANING FILM MUSIC?

JOHN MAUCERI>> -- MEANING FILM MUSIC, PRIMARILY, BUT ALSO OTHER MUSIC. LOS ANGELES HAS ALWAYS HAD THIS KIND OF -- I DON’T KNOW, IT’S ALWAYS BEEN TOLD BY NEW YORK THAT IT’S NOT AS GOOD OR THAT IT’S NOT SMART OR IT’S NOT CULTURED. I FIND, FOR EXAMPLE, THE AUDIENCE THAT COMES TO THE BOWL THE MOST INTELLIGENT, THE FUNNIEST, THE REALLY WITH-IT AUDIENCE. I MAKE JOKES ABOUT SIGMUND FREUD OR ABOUT WHATEVER AND PEOPLE LAUGH. YOU KNOW, THEY GET THE JOKES. SO I JUST ALWAYS TREAT MY AUDIENCE LIKE THEY’RE JUST REALLY SMART AND I THINK THEY’RE TREMENDOUSLY SMART.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT FILM MUSIC WAS NEVER PLAYED LIVE EXCEPT OCCASIONALLY AT THE BOWL IN THE 40’S, YOU KNOW, MAYBE ONE CONCERT A YEAR. SO PART OF WHAT I DID WITH THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL ORCHESTRA WAS TO GIVE IT A REASON TO EXIST. THE FACT THAT IT’S MADE UP OF STUDIO MUSICIANS, THE BEST STUDIO MUSICIANS, AND THAT THEY PLAY FILM MUSIC, BUT THAT FILM MUSIC WASN’T BEING PLAYED LIVE FOR THE PUBLIC.

VAL>> JOHN MAUCERI, I’M SO SORRY WE HAVE TO END THIS INTERVIEW. YOU’LL HAVE TO COME BACK AND WE CAN EXPLORE THIS FURTHER, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING BY.

JOHN MAUCERI>> THANK YOU, VAL. IT’S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

VAL>> CONGRATULATIONS.

JOHN MAUCERI>> THANKS.

VAL>> AND YOU CAN CHECK THE NUMBER AND WEB SITE ON YOUR SCREEN FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL CONCERT. THE 200^TH CONCERT IS THIS SATURDAY AT 8:30.

[323-850-2000]

[WWW.HOLLYWOODBOWL.ORG]

VAL>> THANKS FOR WATCHING. HAVE A GOOD EVENING.

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