7/10/00

LC000710

WARREN>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

TENANTS IN A SHERMAN OAKS APARTMENT COMPLEX WANT A STAY OF DEMOLITION FOR THEIR BUILDING. THEY SAY IT'S AN ARCHITECTURAL CLASSIC. OTHERS AREN'T SO SURE.

GAY YEE>> WHEN YOU THINK OF HISTORIC HOMES, YOU PERHAPS THINK OF A CRAFTSMAN LIKE THE GAMBLE HOUSE OR A SPANISH REVIVAL OR MAYBE A FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT, BUT THE CHASE KNOLLS GARDEN APARTMENTS IN SHERMAN OAKS?

ROBERT CHATTEL>> THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A SIGNIFICANT PROPERTY TYPE WORTHY OF PRESERVATION. WHAT DOES IT TELL US ABOUT OUR HISTORY? WE'RE BUILDING GARDEN APARTMENTS TODAY. WE WERE BUILDING GARDEN APARTMENTS BEFORE. WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT OUR HISTORY?

WARREN>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WHAT DO YOU LEARN AFTER SPENDING A YEAR LIVING WITH SOME OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S MOST VIOLENT GANG MEMBERS? WE'LL HEAR FROM ONE MAN WHO SAYS HE DID JUST THAT.

ALSO TONIGHT, WILL HE OR WON'T HE? PATT MORRISON IS DEMANDING AN ANSWER.

PATT>> THE VICE PRESIDENCY. WHEN NUMBER ONE DOESN'T TRY HARDER. GRAY MATTERS, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

WARREN>> THE FILM HAS BEEN A CULT FAVORITE FOR TWO DECADES.

[FILM CLIP]

WARREN>> NOW THE STORY OF "HAROLD & MAUDE" TAKES TO THE STAGE.

THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR MONDAY, JULY 10, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION

WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION

DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY. VAL ZAVALA HAS THE WEEK OFF.

OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, PROPERTY AND VALUES. TOMORROW THE LOS ANGELES CITY COUNCIL WILL VOTE ON THE FUTURE OF A 1940'S GARDEN APARTMENT COMPLEX KNOWN AS CHASE KNOLLS. COUNCIL MEMBERS WILL DECIDE WHETHER TO GIVE THE COMPLEX HISTORIC LANDMARK STATUS OR TO ALLOW THE OWNER TO TEAR IT DOWN AND BUILD LUXURY APARTMENTS. CHASE KNOLLS IS LOCATED IN THE SAN FERNANDO VALLEY COMMUNITY OF SHERMAN OAKS, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE FEEL IT EVOKES ANOTHER ERA. GAY YEE HAS THIS REPORT.

GAY>> WHEN YOU THINK OF HISTORIC HOMES, YOU PERHAPS THINK OF A CRAFTSMAN LIKE THE GAMBLE HOUSE OR A SPANISH REVIVAL OR MAYBE A FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT, BUT THE CHASE KNOLLS GARDEN APARTMENTS IN SHERMAN OAKS? TO SOME, IT SEEMS A BIT OF A STRETCH.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> HERE IS WHAT WE CALL THE HISTORIC ENTRANCE TO CHASE KNOLLS FARMS....

GAY>> THAT IS, UNTIL YOU TAKE A TOUR WITH SUSAN JAGIELLO, NICKNAMED THE RESIDENT DOCENT OF CHASE KNOLLS.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THE ENTRYWAY TREATMENTS, AGAIN, THE BUILDINGS THEMSELVES ARE MODERN. THEY’RE VERY, VERY SPARE. THEY WERE DESIGNED VISUALLY TO RECEDE AGAINST THE BACKGROUND AND LET THE LANDSCAPING, AS IT DEVELOPS, COME TO THE FORE.

GAY>> IT’S A GLIMPSE INTO THE HISTORY AND ARCHITECTURAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS POST-WORLD WAR II APARTMENT COMPLEX BUILT AROUND GARDENS AND CONSTRUCTED TO CREATE A SENSE OF COMMUNITY.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> IT’S ALSO ABOUT CREATING AN ENVIRONMENT FOR PEOPLE THAT THEY WANT TO HOLD ONTO, AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS HUMANIZING. WHEN I SEE SO MUCH APARTMENT CONSTRUCTION TODAY, IT IS DEHUMANIZING.

GAY>> CHASE KNOLLS WAS ORIGINALLY THE CHASE FARM IN THE 1920’S. THEN IN THE LATE 40’S, THE FAMILY TURNED IT INTO 260 APARTMENTS. LITTLE HAS CHANGED. IT STILL LOOKS LIKE THIS OLD CHAMBER OF COMMERCE PHOTOGRAPH.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> THE ONLY THING THAT’S DIFFERENT IS BASICALLY THE PAINT JOB AND THE HEIGHT OF THE TREES.

GAY>> JAGIELLO AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE BELIEVE CHASE KNOLLS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF THE GARDEN CITY AND MODERN MOVEMENTS IN ARCHITECTURE.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> THE SPARENESS OF THE ARCHITECTURE, THE EMPHASIS ON GEOMETRIC SHAPES THAT YOU SEE AROUND THE ENTRYWAYS AND IN THE EAVES AND, MOST IMPORTANT TO THE GARDEN CITY MOVEMENT, IT IS THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE BUILDINGS THEMSELVES TO THE LANDSCAPING.

TAKE A LOOK AT ONE OF THE TYPICAL ONE-BEDROOMS THAT WE HAVE HERE...

GAY>> INSIDE, MANY OF THE UNITS STILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL HARDWOOD FLOORS AND KITCHENS HAVE THE ORIGINAL STAINLESS STEEL COUNTERS.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> DURING THE WAR, STEEL, OF COURSE, WAS RATIONED FOR CIVILIAN USE. IT WENT ENTIRELY INTO THE WAR EFFORT. SO IN THE POST-WAR BUILDING BOOM, IT WAS CONSIDERED VERY MODERN AND ALMOST A SIGN OF LUXURY AT THE TIME TO HAVE STAINLESS STEEL FITTINGS.

GAY>> EVEN THE BATHROOMS HAVE STAINLESS STEEL ACCENTS AND, OF COURSE, THE TRADEMARK VIEW INTO THE COURTYARDS. JAGIELLO SAYS THEY SIMPLY DON’T MAKE THEM LIKE THEY USED TO.

SUSAN JAGIELLO>> A TYPICAL NEW APARTMENT TODAY IS BUILT -- IT’S CURB TO CURB CONCRETE. IT HAS SOMETHING THAT’S BASICALLY A GLORIFIED PLANTER IN FRONT, THREE OR FOUR FEET WORTH OF GRASS IN WHICH SHRUBS, BUSHES AND MAYBE A FEW SMALL TREES ARE PLANTED. THEY CALL THAT A GREENBELT. THIS IS WHAT WE CALL A GREENBELT. A VERY DIFFERENT CONCEPT.

GAY>> IN JANUARY, THE PLACE WAS SOLD TO NORTHERN CALIFORNIA MEGA-DEVELOPER, LEGACY PARTNERS, INCORPORATED, FOR $24 MILLION DOLLARS. BY LATE MARCH, LEGACY INFORMED THE TENANTS OF ITS PLANS TO TEAR DOWN THE COMPLEX AND BUILD BRAND NEW APARTMENTS AND MORE OF THEM. LEGACY SAYS SENIORS WERE OFFERED A $15,000 RELOCATION FEE, THREE TIMES WHAT THE CITY REQUIRES. DISABLED TENANTS, $10,000, AND THE REST, $2,000. STILL, SOME REFUSE TO LEAVE.

MARY JANE ATKINS>> THE ARCHITECTURE BLENDS IN WITH THE LANDSCAPE TO PROVIDE OPEN COMMUNITY SPACE. THAT MAKES IT A BEAUTIFUL PLACE TO LIVE. NEW URBANISTS TODAY ARE STUDYING AND PLANNING COMMUNITIES JUST BASED ON THIS IDEA, AND CHASE KNOLLS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE GARDEN CITY MOVEMENT.

GAY>> PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE IS HISTORIC SIGNIFICANCE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. IS CHASE KNOLLS AN ARCHITECTURAL TREASURE? WELL, THAT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK TO AND THEIR ARCHITECT.

ROBERT CHATTEL>> THEY SAID IT FALLS INTO THIS IMPORTANT CATEGORY OF DESIGN, GARDEN CITY MOVEMENT, AND IT FALLS INTO THIS IMPORTANT CATEGORY OF DESIGN, MODERN MOVEMENT. BASED UPON OUR ANALYSIS, IT FALLS INTO NEITHER.

GAY>> PRESERVATION ARCHITECT, ROBERT CHATTEL, HAS WORKED ON HISTORIC PROJECTS SUCH AS THE LA CENTRAL LIBRARY AND HAS BEEN EMPLOYED BY LEGACY AS A CONSULTANT. IN HIS OPINION, THERE’S NOTHING AT CHASE KNOLLS WORTH SAVING. HE CITES THE VILLAGE GREEN APARTMENTS IN BALDWIN HILLS AS THE QUINTESSENTIAL EXAMPLE OF GARDEN CITY ARCHITECTURE. CHATTEL SAYS CHASE KNOLLS DOESN’T EVEN COME CLOSE. VILLAGE GREEN HAS A LARGE GREENBELT IN THE CENTER, WHILE CHASE KNOLLS HAS PARKING THAT BISECTS THE COMPLEX. BUILDINGS CLUSTER AROUND THREE PARK-LIKE COURTYARDS, NOT A HUGE CENTRAL PARK.

ROBERT CHATTEL>> THAT DOESN’T SEEM TO BE A SIGNIFICANT PROPERTY TYPE WORTHY OF PRESERVATION. WHAT DOES IT TELL US ABOUT OUR HISTORY? WE’RE BUILDING GARDEN APARTMENTS TODAY. WE WERE BUILDING GARDEN APARTMENTS BEFORE. WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT OUR HISTORY? IS IT A TYPE THAT WE WANT TO EMULATE? I’M NOT SURE IT IS.

BEN RREZNIK>> WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS A SITUATION WHERE A GROUP OF TENANTS WHO WANTED TO AVOID EVICTION AND WANTED TO AVOID HAVING TO LOSE THEIR RENT-CONTROLLED UNITS CAME UPON THE IDEA OF HISTORICAL DESIGNATION AS A TOOL FOR WHICH TO DELAY, IF YOU WILL, AND TO DEFER THEIR NEED TO MOVE.

GAY>> DESPITE WHAT THE DEVELOPER SAYS, CHASE KNOLLS DOES HAVE THE BACKING OF THE LA CULTURAL HERITAGE COMMISSION’S ARCHITECT, WHO RECOMMENDED IN THIS STAFF REPORT THAT THE COMPLEX BE ADDED TO THE CITY’S LIST OF HISTORIC CULTURAL MONUMENTS, AND THE LA CONSERVANCY AGREES.

KEN BERNSTEIN>> WE DO BELIEVE VERY STRONGLY THAT IT DOES MEET THE CRITERIA IN THE CITY’S CULTURAL HERITAGE ORDINANCE FOR DESIGNATION.

GAY>> HOWEVER, ATTORNEY RESNIK POINTS OUT THAT, EVEN IF THE CITY COUNCIL VOTES TO GIVE CHASE KNOLLS AN HISTORIC DESIGNATION, IT STILL DOES NOT PREVENT LEGACY FROM ULTIMATELY DEMOLISHING IT. RESIDENTS SAY WHAT A TRAGIC LEGACY THAT WOULD BE.

WARREN>> OKAY, NOW THIS IS GOING TO GO TO THE CITY COUNCIL TOMORROW BECAUSE ANOTHER BODY COULDN’T MAKE UP ITS MIND?

GAY>> THE COMMISSION COULDN’T. IT WAS A TWO TO TWO VOTE TWICE, SO IT WAS SENT OVER TO THE CITY COUNCIL. THEY HAVE TO COME TO A DECISION. TEN OUT OF THE FIFTEEN HAVE TO VOTE IN FAVOR OF IT.

WARREN>> ARE ANY OF THEM PUSHING IT?

GAY>> YES. COUNCILMAN FEUER IS PUSHING VERY, VERY HEAVILY FOR THIS. HE FEELS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING SPECIAL AND THE LA CONSERVANCY FEELS SO TOO. PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE, THEY FEEL, IS THE FACT THAT IT’S TOO RECENT. WE THINK OF THINGS LIKE THE GAMBLE HOUSE OR VICTORIANS AS HISTORIC, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT’S NOT QUITE ON OUR RADAR YET. PERHAPS WHEN IT’S GONE, THAT’S WHEN WE’LL APPRECIATE IT.

WARREN>> IF IT IS DESIGNATED AS A HISTORICAL MONUMENT, IS THERE ANY WAY TO COMPENSATE THE OWNER WHO PRESUMABLY WOULD GET MORE INCOME FROM IT IF THEY COULD REDO IT?

GAY>> THE OWNER SAYS NOT ENOUGH. NOW IF THE OWNER DOES COME BACK AND REHABILITATE IT, HE CAN RECOUP SOME OF HIS COSTS, BUT THEY WILL STILL BE RENT-CONTROLLED APARTMENTS. SO THERE IS NO INCENTIVE FOR MANY OWNERS TO DO THAT. THEY MAY GET SOME TAX BREAK, BUT MANY OWNERS DON’T CARE FOR THAT.

WARREN>> OKAY. WE’LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS TOMORROW. THANKS, GAY.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, BUSINESS OWNERS IN DOWNTOWN LA ARE FULL OF ANXIETY OVER PREDICTIONS OF ANOTHER BATTLE IN SEATTLE. NOW SOME OF THEM ARE TAKING A WAIT-AND-SEE ATTITUDE ABOUT WHETHER TO STAY PUT OR BOARD UP THE WINDOWS.

>> WE WILL FIND OUT EXACTLY WHAT’S THE MOOD OF THE PROTESTERS AND HOW THEY ARE INTENDING TO ACT. WE’LL KNOW THAT SOMEHOW. EVEN IF WE DON’T KNOW, WE WILL INCREASE OUR SECURITY ANYHOW.

WARREN>> THAT’S TOMORROW AT 7:00 P.M. HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

NOW, CENTRAL LOS ANGELES HAS ALWAYS HAD A REPUTATION AS A TOUGH PLACE TO LIVE. IN THE EARLY 1990’S, IT WAS THE SITE OF GANG WARFARE AND THE RIOTS WHICH FOLLOWED THE RODNEY KING VERDICT. DURING THIS TIME, ONE FAIR-HAIRED WHITE-SKINNED MAN CALLED SOUTH CENTRAL HIS HOME AND HE CALLED BLACK AND LATINO GANG MEMBERS HIS FRIENDS. WE WILL TALK WITH M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES LIVING IN WHAT HE CALLS AMERICA’S MOST VIOLENT GHETTO. THAT’S IN TONIGHT’S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

JOINING US NOW, M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL, AUTHOR OF WHAT HE DESCRIBES AS AN INVESTIGATIVE NON-FICTION NOVEL, "SLIPPING INTO DARKNESS". GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> HI, WARREN. THANK YOU.

WARREN>> YOU HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY WHICH, LOOKING AT YOU, IS A HARD STORY TO BELIEVE.

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> YES.

WARREN>> YOU WENT AND YOU FAKED AN APPLICATION TO BECOME A COUNSELOR AT A CONTINUATION SCHOOL SO THAT YOU COULD GET TO KNOW GANG MEMBERS AND ULTIMATELY THE LEADERS OF GANGS. WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> THERE WERE A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT REASONS. FIRST, I REALLY WANTED TO PUT A HUMAN FACE ON SOCIETY’S MONSTERS, OR PERCEIVED MONSTERS, AND I WANTED TO KNOW IF THE MEDIA’S PORTRAYAL OF THESE GANGBANGERS WAS TRUE, THAT THEY ARE JUST RUTHLESS KILLERS. ALSO PART OF IT WAS AN UPDATE OF JOHN HOWARD GRIFFIN’S "BLACK LIKE ME", EXCEPT I DIDN’T GO IN WITH BLACKFACE.

WARREN>> YOU GOT KICKED AROUND?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> YES. I DID GET BEAT UP IN OCTOBER OF 1991 BY 100 BLOOD MEMBERS IN SOUTH CENTRAL.

WARREN>> WHY DID YOU NOT GET KILLED?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> I’M LUCKY TO BE ALIVE. I SHOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED. PART OF THE REASON, I THINK, THAT THEY DIDN’T FINISH ME OFF IS BECAUSE THEY RESPECTED THE FACT THAT I HUNG IN THERE, THAT I TOOK THE BEATING. THEY TESTED ME IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, BUT I SURVIVED THEIR TESTS.

WARREN>> THEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR STORY, YOU HUNG OUT WITH THEM FOR A LONG PERIOD, GOT TO KNOW MEMBERS OF RIVAL GANGS. NOT JUST BLACK GANGS, BUT ALSO LATINO GANGS. HOW DID YOU PULL THAT OFF?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> RIGHT. THE LATINOS AND THE BLACKS AREN’T ENEMIES PER SE. THEIR TURFS INTERLAP AND OVERLAP EACH OTHER AND SOMETIMES THEY GET INTO SQUABBLES WITH EACH OTHER, BUT IT’S VERY RARE. IT’S USUALLY CRIP ON BLOOD AND LATINO ON LATINO GANGS. SO I WAS ABLE TO CROSS THE BOUNDARIES WITH ONE PARTICULAR LATINO GANG INTO ONE PARTICULAR BLACK GANG.

WARREN>> THAT’S THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE HEAR, PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF WHAT’S GOING ON IN THE COUNTY JAILS WHERE THERE’S BEEN SUCH A RACIAL DIVISION AND NO QUESTION, APPARENTLY, THAT THAT’S WHAT IT’S ABOUT.

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> YEAH, THINGS CHANGE IN PRISON. IT’S AN ANOMALY. IT’S A STRANGE SITUATION, YES. ONCE YOU GO IN, YOU FORGET YOUR GANG AFFILIATIONS ON THE OUTSIDE AND IT’S A DIFFERENT GAME ON THE INSIDE.

WARREN>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS HAPPENING THERE NOW? IT’S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE YOU HAD THESE EXPERIENCES. I SHOULD ASK, WHY SO LONG SINCE THE TIME IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, RIGHT AROUND THE TIME OF THE RIOTS, CIVIL DISTURBANCE, UPRISING, DEPENDING ON WHAT YOU CALL IT, AND NOW WHEN YOU’VE DECIDED TO COME FORWARD?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> IT TOOK A WHILE TO PUT THE BOOK TOGETHER. IT WAS A COUPLE OF YEARS BEFORE I COULD GET THAT GANG MENTALITY OUT OF MY SYSTEM AND THE FIRST EARLY DRAFTS THAT I WAS WRITING OF THE BOOK WERE TOO ANGRY. THEY WERE JUST FILLED WITH VENOM BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT I HAD SEEN SOCIETY DOING, PERPETRATING ON BLACKS, AND I HAD A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER. I WAS WRITING A BOOK THAT WASN’T A FAIR EVEN-HANDED ACCOUNT, SO I TOOK SOME TIME OFF, GOT AWAY FROM THE STORY, LET IT GET OUT OF MY SYSTEM. OF COURSE, LIFE HAPPENS. THERE WERE THINGS GOING ON IN MY LIFE, MY DIVORCE WAS VERY TUMULTUOUS AND OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

WARREN>> YOU IDENTIFIED TO A GREAT EXTENT WITH THE GANG MEMBERS, BUT YOU ALSO SAW TERRIBLE VIOLENCE?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> YES, UP TO AND INCLUDING THE RIOTS WHICH I WAS IN IN 1992. YES, AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT I WAS INVOLVED IN SOME THINGS BECAUSE I WAS -- LIKE I SAID EARLIER, I WAS TESTED TO MAKE SURE THAT I WASN’T A POLICE OFFICER, SO THERE WERE CERTAIN LINES I HAD TO ASK MYSELF: HOW FAR AM I WILLING TO GO TO GET THIS STORY? THOSE WERE THE DECISIONS I HAD TO MAKE ALONG THE WAY AND I SAW A LOT OF VIOLENCE, YEAH.

WARREN>> HOW IS IT THAT YOU IDENTIFIED WITH THE PERPETRATORS OF THE VIOLENCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO INITIALLY BEAT YOU UP?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> BECAUSE I COULD SEE THEIR HUMAN SIDES. I SAW THEM AT THEIR FUNERALS OF THEIR PARENTS, THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS, THEIR GANG HOMEBOYS. I SAW THEIR TEARS. I SAW HOW THEY STRUGGLED TO PAY THEIR RENT. I KNOW THE VIOLENCE THAT THEY PERPETRATE AND THE CRIMES THEY COMMIT, AND I DISAGREE WITH THAT, BUT I ALSO KNOW THEIR HUMAN SIDE.

WARREN>> DO YOU SEE THEM AS VICTIMS?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> NO. NO, I DON’T SEE THEM AS VICTIMS AND I DON’T THINK MOST GANG MEMBERS SEE THEMSELVES AS VICTIMS. THEY WOULDN’T SAY THAT THEY’RE VICTIMS.

WARREN>> YOU SAID YOU WERE VERY ANGRY, THOUGH, AT WHITE SOCIETY, I TAKE IT. WHAT WERE YOU ANGRY ABOUT IF IT’S NOT VICTIMIZATION?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> WELL, I CAN’T SAY THAT I WAS ANGRY AT THE VICTIMIZATION PER SE. MY ANGER WAS REALLY AT SOCIETY AND HOW WE KIND OF CREATE AND PERPETUATE THESE GHETTOS. ALSO, THERE IS A LOT OF VIOLENCE PERPETRATED ON THE GANGS JUST BY POLICE OFFICERS WHICH I SAW.

WARREN>> SO, DOES THE RAMPART SITUATION, FOR EXAMPLE, SURPRISE YOU?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> NOT AT ALL. THAT’S BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME AND MAYBE NOW SOMETHING WILL BE DONE ABOUT IT. THE GANGSTERS SEE POLICE OFFICERS AS JUST ANOTHER GANG, BUT THEY SEE THEM AS BEING PAID FOR BREAKING THE LAW.

WARREN>> THERE HAS BEEN AN UPSURGE OF VIOLENCE RECENTLY, AT LEAST REPORTEDLY, IN THOSE AREAS. WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE REASON FOR THAT?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> I THINK IT’S JUST BECAUSE LIFE GOES ON AS IT HAS. NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE INNER CITY. NOTHING HAS CHANGED WITH REGARD TO RACISM AND THE WAY WE TREAT EACH OTHER AND THE WAY FAMILIES ARE CRUMBLING NOT JUST IN THE GHETTOS, BUT ACROSS AMERICA.

WARREN>> SO YOU HAVE AN ACCOUNT, IT’S CALLED "SLIPPING INTO DARKNESS", IT’S GOING TO BE PUBLISHED WHEN AND BY WHOM?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> IT’S GOING TO BE PUBLISHED IN NOVEMBER. IT’S OUT NOW ON CD ROM AND ELECTRONICALLY. YOU CAN GET IT THROUGH AMAZON.COM, BARNES & NOBLE AND BORDERS.

WARREN>> AND THEN IT WILL BE OUT IN THE FALL?

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> YES.

WARREN>> OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL>> THANK YOU, WARREN.

WARREN>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF M. RUTLEDGE MCCALL’S STORY? TELL US YOUR OPINION ON THIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER STORIES WE COVER ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT. HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US:

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WARREN>> IN TONIGHT’S INFINITELY MORRISON, PATT RELATES THE TALE OF THE MAN WHO WON’T PLAY SECOND FIDDLE.

PATT>> WE HAD A BIT OF A SCARE FROM GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS OVER THE WEEKEND. HE WAS IN PENNSYLVANIA AT THE GOVERNORS’ CONFERENCE WHEN HE TOLD REPORTERS THAT, ALTHOUGH HE INTENDS TO SERVE OUT HIS TERM AS GOVERNOR, THE ONE HE JUST STARTED LAST YEAR, HE WOULDN'T RULE OUT BEING AL GORE’S RUNNING MATE. "I DON’T LIKE TO RULE THINGS OUT THAT HAVEN’T BEEN OFFERED TO ME", HE SAID. BUT WITHIN HOURS, ANOTHER STORY KNOCKED DOWN THE FIRST ONE. "I’M NOT GOING TO BE ON THE TICKET", DAVIS SAID.

THIS IS A TOUCHY ISSUE FOR CALIFORNIANS. ANYONE WHO’S GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA IS, BY DEFINITION, A BIG PLAYER AND THE POLITICIAN OF NATIONAL POTENTIAL, AND SOMETIMES THE TEMPTATION IS IRRESISTIBLE. GOVERNOR RONALD REAGAN RAN FOR PRESIDENT IN 1968. GOVERNOR PETE WILSON RAN IN 1996. EVEN LOS ANGELES MAYOR, SAM YORTY, COULDN’T RESIST THE CALL OF THE PRIMARIES AND WAS RIDICULED IN PRINT BY A DEVASTATING PAUL CONRAD CARTOON CAPTIONED "THE SAP IS RUNNING IN NEW HAMPSHIRE".

AS FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO JERRY BROWN, GRAY DAVIS KNOWS HOW BADLY IT SITS WITH VOTERS FOR THE INCUMBENT TO GO SWANNING AFTER HIGHER OFFICE, IF THE VICE PRESIDENCY CAN EVEN BE CALLED HIGHER OFFICE. TWICE WHILE BROWN WAS GOVERNOR, IN 1976 AND 1980, HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT. DURING BROWN’S ABSENCES FROM SACRAMENTO, HIS CHIEF OF STAFF WAS OFTEN DE FACTO GOVERNOR. ON ONE COMICALLY APPALLING OCCASION, THE REPUBLICAN LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WAS SPEEDING TO THE CAPITOL TO SIGN A BILL WHILE THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR WAS TRYING TO FLY BACK INTO CALIFORNIA AIRSPACE IN TIME TO STOP HIM.

BUT AT LEAST THAT WAS THE PRESIDENCY. THIS IS ONLY THE VICE PRESIDENCY, AN OFFICE OF DUBIOUS AUTHORITY WHOSE FORMER OCCUPANT, JOHN NANCE GARNER, LIKENED IT TO "A BUCKET OF WARM SPIT" AND, EVEN THEN, I SUSPECT THAT QUOTE WAS TIDIED UP. ANYWAY, IT’S PRACTICALLY UN-AMERICAN TO ASPIRE TO SECOND PLACE, A SILVER MEDAL. THE EARLIEST THAT DAVIS COULD TAKE A REAL SHOT AT PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE WOULD BE 2004. FOUR MORE YEARS TO RAISE MONEY, WHICH HE'S ALREADY DOING AT A RATE OF MORE THAN $1 MILLION DOLLARS A MONTH. FOUR MORE YEARS TO TURN GRAY INTO GOLD.

WARREN>> PATT, THANKS FOR THAT.

WHEN THE FILM "HAROLD & MAUDE" CAME OUT NEARLY THIRTY YEARS AGO, IT WAS NOT A HUGE COMMERCIAL SUCCESS AND IT DIDN’T GET RAVE REVIEWS, BUT ALMOST INSTANTLY IT DID BECOME AN UNDERGROUND CULT CLASSIC. THE FILM TELLS THE STORY OF AN OFFBEAT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A LOVELY -- OR EXCUSE ME, A LONELY YOUNG MAN, I GUESS HE COULD BE LOVELY TOO -- AND A FREE-SPIRITED 80-YEAR-OLD WOMAN. IT MAY SURPRISE YOU TO KNOW THERE IS ALSO A STAGE VERSION OF "HAROLD & MAUDE". IT RAN ON BROADWAY IN THE EARLY 80’S. NOW SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS HAVE THE CHANCE TO SEE A LOCAL PRODUCTION. FIRST, WE’RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE MOVIE THAT STARTED IT ALL, IN TONIGHT’S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

[FILM CLIP]

WARREN>> JOINING US IS HEIDI HELEN DAVIS. SHE’S DIRECTOR OF "HAROLD & MAUDE", THE STAGE VERSION, AT THE THEATRICUM BOTANICUM UP IN TOPANGA CANYON. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> MY PLEASURE. THANK YOU.

WARREN>> THIS IS A HARD ACT TO FOLLOW. RUTH GORDON?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> YES, IT IS, BUT IT’S A WONDERFUL ACT TO FOLLOW BECAUSE IT’S SUCH A GREAT PLAY. IT TRANSLATES BEAUTIFULLY.

WARREN>> HOW DID IT GO FROM A MOVIE TO A PLAY? USUALLY, IT SEEMS TO ME, IT GOES THE OTHER WAY.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> WELL, HE WAS ENCOURAGED. COLIN HIGGINS WAS ENCOURAGED. HE WROTE IT, ACTUALLY, AS A MASTERS FILM PROJECT AT UCLA AND HE WAS ENCOURAGED TO EXPAND IT AND HE DID INTO A SCREENPLAY. IT WAS LATER THAT HE WROTE THE PLAY VERSION.

WARREN>> BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT THE PLAY, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THIS PARTICULAR STORY HAS BECOME A CLASSIC? THIRTY YEARS NOW.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, I THINK THEN, AS WELL AS NOW. IT WAS WRITTEN DURING THE VIETNAM WAR. IT CHALLENGED A LOT OF TRADITION. IT CHALLENGED THE THEME AND THE BELIEF THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO BE HAPPY IN REGARDS TO OUR GROUP, OUR FAMILY, OUR COUNTRY. FOR THE FIRST TIME, I THINK, IN HISTORY, WE LEARNED THAT WE HAD AN OBLIGATION TO OURSELVES TO BE HAPPY AND TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE. RUTH GORDON EMBODIES THIS AND HAROLD, OF COURSE, EMBODIES THE STAGNANT, IMPRISONED PART OF US THAT TRIES TO BE WHAT OTHERS WANT.

WARREN>> BUD COURT, OF COURSE, IN ADDITION TO RUTH GORDON, IS THE STAR OF THE MOVIE. LET’S TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT ANOTHER CLIP.

[FILM CLIP]

WARREN>> I THINK THAT PRETTY WELL ILLUSTRATES WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> OH, BEAUTIFULLY. THAT’S RIGHT AFTER HAROLD EXPLAINED WHY HE KEEPS REENACTING A DEATH SEQUENCE TO GET HIS MOTHER’S ATTENTION. BUT HER WHOLE PHILOSOPHY IN THIS PLAY, MAUDE’S PHILOSOPHY, IS TO TAKE A CHANCE AND BE HUMAN AND LIVE FULLY.

WARREN>> IT DOES HAVE IT’S DARK ASPECT?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> ABSOLUTELY. THE DARK ASPECTS -- WELL, IT’S VERY, VERY SUBTLE, BUT SHE IS A CONCENTRATION CAMP SURVIVOR. FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE, SHE SEES HOW INTENSELY IMPORTANT HAPPINESS IS. THERE’S ANOTHER SECTION WHERE THEY’RE IN A TREE WHERE HE SAYS, "DON’T YOU ADMIT WE’RE ALL ALONE?" AND SHE SAYS, "YES, BUT THAT’S WHY WE HAVE TO APPRECIATE WARM FIRES AND GOOD BOOKS." IT’S BEAUTIFUL.

WARREN>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT NOW ABOUT THE PLAY AS OPPOSED TO THE MOVIE. HOW IS IT SIMILAR? HOW IS IT DIFFERENT?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> WELL, IT’S SIMILAR IN THAT I BELIEVE THAT WE’VE KEPT THE PHILOSOPHY INTACT, SPIRIT INTACT, AND IT IS VERBATIM. MANY OF THE SCENES ARE, LINE BY LINE, THE SAME. HOWEVER, IT’S DIFFICULT, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, TO JUMP FROM SCENE TO SCENE TO SCENE ON STAGE, BUT I THINK WE MANAGE PRETTY WELL IN OUR DIFFERENT LOCATIONS. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF SCENES MISSING, OF COURSE. WE DIDN’T DO THE JUNK YARD, ETC., BUT MOST OF THE PLAY IS THERE. THE DATES ARE THERE, THE PART OF FATHER FINNIGAN IS THERE, IT’S VERY SIMILAR.

WARREN>> LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT A BIT OF THE PLAY ITSELF AND WE’LL COME BACK AND TALK ABOUT THAT.

[FILM CLIP]

WARREN>> HE’S A LITTLE NERVOUS ABOUT BEING IN THAT TREE? SHE IS TOTALLY COMFORTABLE.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> YES.

WARREN>> WHO ARE THESE ACTORS?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> OH, ELLEN GEER IS A PHENOMENAL ACTOR. SHE IS WILL GEER’S DAUGHTER, THE LATE WILL GEER --

WARREN>> -- FOUNDER OF THE THEATRICUM --

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> --FOUNDER OF THE THEATRIUM --

WARREN>> -- BLACKLISTED ACTRESS --

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS -- BLACKLISTED ACTRESS. SHE COMES FROM A GREAT SURVIVAL STRAIN. SHE IS AN IDEALIST, SHE HAS GREAT INTEGRITY AND I BELIEVE THIS IS WHY COLIN HIGGINS’ FOUNDATION ALLOWED HER TO DO THIS PLAY.

WARREN>> SHE IS A LOT YOUNGER THAN THE ROLE SHE IS PLAYING?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> YES. SHE IS A COUPLE OF DECADES AND MORE YOUNGER THAN THE PART.

WARREN>> BUT VERY PERSUASIVE.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> SHE IS MAUDE. SHE IS MAUDE. SHE’S A YOUNG VERSION OF MAUDE. IT WAS PRETTY EASY FOR HER TO SLIP RIGHT INTO THIS PART.

WARREN>> HOW DID THIS PARTICULAR PRODUCTION OF THE PLAY COME TO BE?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> WELL, WE’RE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WONDERFUL PLAYS WITH GREAT MEANING, PLAYS THAT WE FEEL VERY PROUD OF PRESENTING. ELLEN, OF COURSE, WAS IN THE FILM VERSION. SHE LOVED THIS PLAY AND IT WAS THE PERFECT VEHICLE FOR HER.

WARREN>> SHE PLAYED ONE OF THE GIRLFRIENDS?

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> SHE WAS "SUNSHINE", YES, THE ACTRESS.

WARREN>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WARREN>> GOOD IF ALL THE PEOPLE WANT TO GO AND SEE YOUR PLAY.

HEIDI HELEN DAVIS>> I HOPE SO. THANKS.

WARREN>> YOU CAN CHECK THE NUMBER AND THE WEB SITE ON YOUR SCREEN FOR MORE INFORMATION. "HAROLD & MAUDE", THE PLAY, IS AT THE THEATRICUM BOTANICUM IN TOPANGA CANYON THROUGH SEPTEMBER 30.

[310-455-3723]

[WWW.THEATRICUM.COM]

THAT’S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW ON WHICH WAY LA, PRESIDENT CLINTON SAYS BOTH ARAFAT AND BARAK ARE SHOWING GREAT COURAGE TO CONTINUE TALKING PEACE AND COMING TO THE UNITED STATES TO DO IT. CAN A LAME DUCK PRESIDENT HELP TWO BELEAGUERED LEADERS IN ANOTHER VERY DIFFICULT PART OF THE WORLD? THAT’S TOMORROW.

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