7/19/00

LC000719

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> THE LONG BEACH AQUARIUM IS LOSING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK FAR TO FIND SOMEONE WHO SAYS "I TOLD YOU SO."

PHILIP BRUCE>> IN JUST SIX MONTHS, THE AQUARIUM LOST $4.5 MILLION DOLLARS. WHILE THE FACILITY IS A LONG WAY FROM GOING UNDER, THE NUMBERS RIGHT NOW JUST DON'T ADD UP.

THIS IS NOT A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE WELL AND COME UP WITH MORE CITY MONEY TO KEEP THEM --

BOB TORREZ>> NO, I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO DO THAT.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WE TALK WITH THE LAWYER WHO PIONEERED PALIMONY, A FLAMBOYANT MOVER AND SHAKER WHO WOUND UP IN FEDERAL PRISON.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> I WAS PRETTY MUCH ON A STREAK OF --

WARREN>> -- PRETTY FAST LIFE.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> A FAST LIFE, AND WHEN YOU TRY TO LEAD A FAST LIFE, IT CATCHES UP WITH YOU, BELIEVE ME. IT CAUGHT UP WITH ME.

WARREN>> ALSO TONIGHT, ARE YOU TIRED OF ELECTIONS DECIDED BY POLITICAL ADS AND SOUND BYTES FROM CANDIDATES? PROJECT VOTE SMART TO THE RESCUE, ONE-STOP SHOPPING FOR INFORMATION ON THE CANDIDATES AND WHERE THEY STAND ON IMPORTANT ISSUES.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR WEDNESDAY, JULY 19, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY.

VAL>> AND I'M VAL ZAVALA.

WARREN>> OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, FISHING FOR TOURISTS. WHEN IT OPENED, THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC WAS SEEN AS THE JEWEL OF THE LONG BEACH WATERFRONT. NOW, JUST TWO YEARS LATER, THE AQUARIUM IS STRUGGLING TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

VAL>> THE PROBLEM IS, ATTENDANCE AT THE AQUARIUM IS WAY BELOW THE ORIGINAL FORECAST. NOW THERE'S NO SHORTAGE OF THEORIES ABOUT WHY THAT'S HAPPENED, BUT THE BIG QUESTION NOW ISN'T WHY. IT'S HOW TO TURN THINGS AROUND. PHILIP BRUCE HAS THIS REPORT.

PHILIP>> IN A REGION THAT HAS EVERY TOURIST ATTRACTION UNDER THE SUN, THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC STILL MANAGES TO BE UNIQUE. THERE ARE MORE THAN 12,000 ANIMALS ON DISPLAY HERE, SOME TRULY AMAZING SPECIMENS, WITH ENOUGH EXHIBITS TO COVER THREE FOOTBALL FIELDS. BUT THE TROUBLE IS, ON MOST DAYS, FISH OUTNUMBER VISITORS 100 TO ONE. THERE'S A STEADY STREAM OF TRAFFIC, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO OFFSET THE GROWING SEA OF RED INK. IN JUST SIX MONTHS, THE AQUARIUM LOST $4.5 MILLION DOLLARS. WHILE THE FACILITY IS A LONG WAY FROM GOING UNDER, THE NUMBERS RIGHT NOW JUST DON'T ADD UP.

BOB TORREZ>> WELL, I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED WITH THE LOSS, CERTAINLY, BUT I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT THEIR PERFORMANCE. THAT REFLECTS THE FIRST YEAR AND THERE WAS A LOT OF START-UP COSTS IN THAT FIRST YEAR.

PHILIP>> LONG BEACH CITY FINANCE DIRECTOR, BOB TORREZ, HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THE AQUARIUM AS A FINANCIAL COUNSELOR. HE SAYS THE CITY STILL BELIEVES THE FACILITY CAN SNAG A BIGGER SHARE OF THE TOURIST DOLLARS FLOWING THROUGH SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. BUT TORREZ CONTENDS IT'S GOING TO TAKE A MORE AGGRESSIVE APPROACH TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THE AQUARIUM IS STILL AROUND.

BOB TORREZ>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT THEY NEED TO BE MORE AGGRESSIVE IN THEIR MARKETING AND THEY ARE, IN FACT, DOING THAT. AT THE MOMENT, THEY ARE IN THE FINAL STAGES OF DEVELOPING A BUSINESS STRATEGY, A BUSINESS PLAN, AND OBVIOUSLY THE OBJECTIVE IS TO PUMP UP REVENUES AND THAT MEANS INCREASING ATTENDANCE. BUT THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO GO AFTER DONATIONS, CORPORATE SPONSORS, LOCAL AREA AND REGIONAL SPONSORSHIP, WHICH IS AVAILABLE TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ATTRACTIONS.

PHILIP>> IN JUST TWO YEARS OF OPERATION, THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC HAS ALREADY SEEN THE BEST AND THE WORST OF TIMES. WHEN IT FIRST OPENED IN JUNE OF 1998, VISITORS WAITED FOR HOURS TO GET IN, BUT, LIKE MOST TOURIST ATTRACTIONS, THE NEW WORE OFF QUICKLY. CRITICS SAY THE AQUARIUM FOLLOWED WITH A LACKLUSTER MARKETING PLAN THAT DID NOTHING TO DRAW BIG CROWDS.

TAMMY BRAILSFORD>> THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS TO COMPETE WITH IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BUT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS DESERVE TO HAVE AN AQUARIUM LIKE THIS ONE. WE HAVE THE OCEAN OUT HERE. WE NEED TO WORK ON PRESERVATION OF THAT OCEAN AND CONSERVATION, SO WE'RE GOING TO WORK VERY HARD TO MAKE THIS A SUCCESSFUL ORGANIZATION FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

PHILIP>> TAMMY BRAILSFORD IS ONE OF THE NEW FACES AT THE AQUARIUM WHO'VE RECENTLY COME ABOARD TO HELP STEER THIS PLACE TOWARD PROFITABILITY. SHE'S A VETERAN ADMINISTRATOR WHO'S BACKGROUND IS IN HEALTH CARE, NOT FISH TANKS, BUT BRAILSFORD HAS THE RIGHT KIND OF LONG BEACH CONNECTIONS TO REACH OUT FOR HELP AT A TIME WHEN THE AQUARIUM NEEDS ALL THE FRIENDS IT CAN GET.

TAMMY BRAILSFORD>> WE ARE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED AND CERTAIN THAT WE CAN MAKE OUR BOND PAYMENT IN DECEMBER, JUST AS WE HAVE MADE ALL OF OUR BOND PAYMENTS FOR THE LAST TEN TIMES, AND WE'VE DONE THAT WITHOUT HAVING TO DIP INTO OUR RESERVES. SO WE'RE PRETTY COMFORTABLE THAT THINGS ARE GOING WELL AND, WITH OUR BUSINESS PLANNING PROCESS THAT WE'RE IN NOW, WE'RE VERY COMFORTABLE THAT WE'LL BEGIN TO RAISE THE REVENUES AND PUT OURSELVES IN AN EVEN MORE COMFORTABLE POSITION.

PHILIP>> WHILE THE CITY'S BEEN QUICK TO OFFER LOTS OF FINANCIAL ADVICE, THEY'VE MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THE AQUARIUM SHOULDN'T COUNT ON GETTING ANY MORE TAXPAYERS' MONEY. NO MATTER HOW BAD IT GETS, THEY SAY, THERE WILL NOT BE A PUBLIC BAIL-OUT OF THIS PROJECT. THAT'S WHY THE PRESSURE IS ON FOR THE AQUARIUM TO FIND A NEW STRATEGY TO DRAW BIGGER CROWDS.

BUT CRITICS SAY THERE'S NO WAY THE AQUARIUM CAN STAY AFLOAT ON ITS OWN. JUST PAYING THE INTEREST AND THE BOND DEBT ALONE COSTS OVER $9 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, AND THOSE SAME CRITICS SAY THE CITY WAS NEVER REALISTIC WHEN IT PROJECTED HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD COME HERE. PLANNERS PROJECTED THAT ANNUAL ATTENDANCE WOULD BE SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF TWO MILLION VISITORS, BUT RIGHT NOW, IT'S A LITTLE MORE THAN HALF THAT. WHILE NOBODY TALKS ABOUT WANTING TO SEE THE AQUARIUM FAIL, SOME WONDER IF IT'S AN EXPENSIVE BOONDOGGLE THAT WILL HAUNT THE CITY OF LONG BEACH FOR DECADES TO COME.

THIS IS NOT A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE WELL AND COME UP WITH MORE CITY MONEY TO KEEP THEM --

BOB TORREZ>> NO, I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE GOING TO NEED TO DO THAT. THEIR ATTENDANCE HAS PICKED UP SINCE FEBRUARY AND MARCH AND IT CONTINUES TO PICK UP.

PHILIP>> AND TORREZ SAYS JUST WAIT A WHILE. WAIT UNTIL THE CITY FINALLY HAS THE LAST STAGE OF ITS BAYFRONT DEVELOPMENT IN PLACE, THE QUEENSWAY BAY PROJECT, A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR ASSORTMENT OF THEATERS, SHOPS AND RESTAURANTS. IT'S TWO YEARS BEHIND SCHEDULE, BUT WHEN IT'S DONE, THE CITY BELIEVES IT WILL ATTRACT AS MANY AS TEN MILLION VISITORS A YEAR AND ALL OF THEM WILL BE WITHIN WALKING DISTANCE OF THE AQUARIUM NEXT DOOR.

BOB TORREZ>> ALL THE AQUARIUM NEEDS TO DO IS HOLD OUT FOR ONE MORE YEAR AND, IN SPITE OF THE COMMENTS THAT I MADE EARLIER ABOUT THEM NEEDING TO BE SELF-SUPPORTING, NONETHELESS THE SPILL-OVER FROM THE RETAIL PROJECT IS DEFINITELY GOING TO BE A BIG HELP AND A BIG BOOST TO THE AQUARIUM.

PHILIP>> THE REST OF LONG BEACH IS FEELING PRETTY GOOD THESE DAYS. CONVENTION BUSINESS IS UP AND SO IS TOURISM. NOT SURPRISINGLY, THE OLD QUEEN MARY IS STILL THE THING THAT ATTRACTS MOST OUT-OF-TOWNERS. AS FOR THE AQUARIUM, IT MAY NOT BE PULLING IN HORDES OF TOURISTS, BUT IT'S STILL A BIG HIT WITH LOCALS, ESPECIALLY THE SUMMER CAMP CROWD.

DAVE FORREST>> THE MAJORITY OF OUR GROUPS ARE KINDERGARTENS, ONES AND TWOS, SO WE COVER A LITTLE BIT OF IT IN THE CLASSROOM AND THEN IT REALLY IS HANDS ON FOR THEM HERE WHEN WE COME TO THE PROGRAM, SO IT REALLY WORKS OUT WELL.

PHILIP>> MANY PATRONS BELIEVE THE SUCCESS OF THIS PLACE DEPENDS NOT SO MUCH ON BOOSTING TOURISM AS IT DOES ENCOURAGING EVEN MORE TURNOUT FROM THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY.

RUTH BOOKSTABER>> WHAT THEY MIGHT WANT TO DO IS TRY AND INCREASE THE LOCAL MEMBERSHIP, ACTUALLY BRINGING PEOPLE IN THAT FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE A SENSE OF OWNERSHIP, THAT THEY REALLY WANT TO BE HERE.

PHILIP>> MEANWHILE, CRITICS SAY ALL THOSE VOWS BY THE CITY NOT TO BAIL OUT THE AQUARIUM WILL SOON BE FORGOTTEN IF THE PLACE CONTINUES TO LOSE TONS OF MONEY AND THERE'S NO WAY, THEY CLAIM, THAT IT CAN DO ANYTHING ELSE. BUT THE KEEPERS OF THE FISH SAY DON'T COUNT THEM OUT YET. THE CRITICS HAVE BEEN WRONG BEFORE.

TAMMY BRAILSFORD>> WELL, I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT ANYBODY WAS A DETRACTOR FROM SUCH A GREAT PROJECT. LIKE I SAID, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DESERVES AN AQUARIUM. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANYTHING TO PROVE TO THOSE PEOPLE. I'M ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL AND WE'RE DOING THAT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO COME HERE, FOR THE ANIMALS, FOR OUR MISSION OF PRESERVATION AND CONSERVATION, AND THEN FOR THE CITY OF LONG BEACH.

WARREN>> IT IS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE, NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT. THIS IS VERY SAD, BUT MAYBE IT'S THE WRONG PLACE AND THE WRONG TIME.

PHILIP>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WAS A PHILOSOPHY THERE WHEN THEY BUILT IT. IT WAS LIKE, IF WE BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME, AND THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY COME AFTER THAT INITIAL INTEREST PERIOD WENT BY. THEY DO HAVE A PROBLEM OF BEING KIND OF IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING THAT WILL BE A BIG DEVELOPMENT ONE DAY, BUT IT REALLY ISN'T NOW. REALLY ALL YOU HAVE IS THE QUEEN MARY, WHICH IS NEARBY, AND CLEARLY THAT'S A BIG ATTRACTION, BUT THE AQUARIUM IS COMPETING FOR A LOT OF TOURIST DOLLARS WITH A LOT OF PLACES. THE INITIAL BELIEF WAS, ON THE CITY'S PART, THAT THEY COULD GET AT LEAST ONE TOURIST DAY IF PEOPLE WERE SPENDING A WEEK IN CALIFORNIA, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO IN THAT AREA, IT'S KIND OF TOUGH.

VAL>> I SEE. SO WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THE CITY'S GOING TO BE BAILING THEM OUT?

PHILIP>> WELL, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN, IN SPITE OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING FROM THE CITY. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, THEY'RE GOING TO THE STATE AND THE AQUARIUM IS ASKING FOR A STATE GRANT, WHICH THEY'RE ENTITLED TO. IT'S THE SAME THING THAT ZOOS GET AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS. THEY'VE ASKED FOR OVER $2 MILLION DOLLARS. THE GOVERNOR SAYS HE'LL GIVE THEM $500,000 AT THIS POINT. PLUS, THEY'RE TRYING TO GO TO CORPORATE SOURCES TO GET MORE UNDERWRITING. THEY'VE GOTTEN SOME OF THAT SO FAR, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, THEY NEED A LOT OF MONEY AND, EVEN IF ATTENDANCE GOES UP, THE CRITICS SAY IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

WARREN>> AND THE CITY ULTIMATELY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE BONDS, RIGHT?

PHILIP>> WELL, THE CITY FLOATED BONDS TO BUILD THIS PROJECT AND THEY ARE ULTIMATELY THE ONES THAT HAVE TO PAY THEM OFF IF THE MONEY'S NOT THERE. SO, REGARDLESS OF THE VOW NOT TO BAIL THEM OUT, SOMEBODY WILL HAVE TO PAY THOSE BONDS.

VAL>> THAT'S INTERESTING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, THE BATTLE TO SAVE A LOCAL HOSPITAL. THE 75-YEAR-OLD LONG BEACH COMMUNITY MEDICAL CENTER IS SCHEDULED TO CLOSE BY THE END OF THE YEAR. CAN IT BE SAVED? THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AT 7:00 P.M.

WARREN>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEAR THE NAME MARVIN MITCHELSON? IF YOU'RE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THE 70'S, YOU ARE THINKING PALIMONY.

VAL>> MITCHELSON IS THE ATTORNEY WHO INVENTED THE TERM PALIMONY. HE WON THE LANDMARK CASE INVOLVING ACTOR, LEE MARVIN, THAT GAVE WOMEN AND MEN THE RIGHT TO SUE A LIVE-IN COMPANION FOR ALIMONY. BUT MITCHELSON'S FALL FROM GRACE WAS ALMOST AS RAPID AS HIS RISE. WARREN TALKS WITH MARVIN MITCHELSON IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

WARREN>> MARVIN MITCHELSON, WELCOME BACK TO TELEVISION.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> NICE TO BE BACK.

WARREN>> YOU WERE SO WELL-KNOWN AS THE LAWYER THAT HELPED TO INVENT THE IDEA OF PALIMONY, AS A JET-SETTER, A GUY WITH A BIG MANSION, FAST CARS AND ALL OF THAT IMPLIES A WEALTHY SOCIETY LAWYER. I DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT. TELL US ABOUT IT.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, WHAT HAPPENED AFTER, UNFORTUNATELY FOR ME, I RAN AFOUL OF THE INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE, AT LEAST THEY SAID I DID, AND I WAS CONVICTED OF INCOME TAX VIOLATIONS AND I SPENT TWO YEARS IN FEDERAL PRISON, FIRST IN FT. WORTH TEXAS MEDICAL CENTER, I HAD SOME MEDICAL PROBLEMS, AND THE LAST YEAR IN LOMPOC, WHICH IS JUST A LITTLE NORTH OF SANTA BARBARA. I HAD SOME VERY INTERESTING EXPERIENCES.

WARREN>> THOSE EXPERIENCES ARE INTERESTING AND THEY PLAYED A BIG PART IN THE FACT THAT YOUR LAW LICENSE HAS NOW BEEN FULLY REINSTATED AND THE JUDGE THAT MADE THAT DECISION HAD A LOT OF GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT YOU.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> THAT'S VERY -- I'M PRETTY HAPPY ABOUT THAT. I REALLY AM, AND HOPEFULLY I EARNED IT, THE GOOD THINGS. I DECIDED, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU GET THERE -- NO ONE WANTS TO BE THERE, BUT, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE FIRST DAY AND THE TEARS FLOWED AND I SAID WHY AM I HERE, BECAUSE WE ALL THINK WE'RE INNOCENT. I DIDN'T WANT TO BE DISINGENUOUS AND I THOUGHT THAT I WAS NOT GUILTY OF A CRIME, BUT I WAS PROBABLY GUILTY OF NOT DOING WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE AND LOOKING OVER MY RETURNS CAREFULLY AND NOT CHECKING THINGS OUT, SO I BROUGHT IT UPON MYSELF. I REALIZED THAT AND I REALIZED, LOOK, YOU'RE HERE, YOU HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF IT. SO I MADE MYSELF VERY USEFUL.

WHEN I WAS IN LOMPOC, I HELPED RUN THE LAW LIBRARY AND, IN BOTH PLACES, I HELPED MANY PRISONERS WITH THEIR APPEALS. I'D WORK UNTIL MIDNIGHT BECAUSE I ENJOYED WORKING WITH THAT SORT OF --

WARREN>> WELL, YOU WERE A JAILHOUSE LAWYER THAT HAD ALL THE RIGHT CREDENTIALS.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> RIGHT. WELL, ACTUALLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, BUT IN 1963, I WENT TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT AND I WON A CASE CALLED DOUGLAS VERSUS CALIFORNIA, A LANDMARK DECISION GIVING THE RIGHT OF ALL CONVICTED PEOPLE TO HAVE A FREE LAWYER ON APPEAL. THEY NEVER HAD A RIGHT TO DO THAT BEFORE 1963. THEY MADE IT RETROACTIVE AND OVER TEN MILLION PEOPLE HAVE HAD FREE APPEALS, SO I WAS PUTTING MY MOUTH WHERE MY MONEY WASN'T BECAUSE I WAS HELPING ALL THESE PRISONERS AND WE EVEN GOT THREE OF THEM RELEASED. SO THAT WAS A NICE ACCOMPLISHMENT AND I FEEL VERY PROUD OF DOING THAT.

WARREN>> TELL US ABOUT THE OPERA CLUB. WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH AN OPERA CLUB IN A PRISON?

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, SEE, I HAPPEN TO LOVE OPERA. UP IN LOMPOC, IT'S SORT OF A CAREFREE AMBIENCE IN THE SENSE WE'RE ALL OUTSIDE AND YOU'RE NOT LOCKED DOWN AND YOU CAN WALK AWAY FROM THERE, BUT IT'S NOT A WISE THING TO DO. BUT THERE WAS SOME PEOPLE WHO ENJOYED CULTURE AND I'VE ALWAYS LOVED OPERA SINCE I WAS A YOUNG PERSON, SO WE LISTENED TO VIDEO OPERAS ABOUT TWO OR THREE TIMES A WEEK, SOMETIMES THREE TIMES, SOMETIMES FOUR TIMES, THEN WE'D CRITIQUE THEM. IT WAS WONDERFUL. THEY HAD THESE WONDERFUL VIDEOS AND IT WAS JUST LIKE BEING AT THE OPERA, A NIGHT AT THE OPERA. NOT LIKE THE MARX BROTHERS, BUT LIKE REAL LIFE. SO I ENJOYED THAT A LOT.

WHEN I WAS AT THE FIRST PLACE, WE HAD A FRENCH CLUB. WE HAD SIX PEOPLE IN THE FRENCH CLUB. THE INSTRUCTOR, WHO WAS VERY GOOD, GOT TRANSFERRED ABOUT THREE WEEKS OUT, BUT WE KEPT THE CLUB GOING AND PRETTY SOON WE WERE ALL SPEAKING FRENCH TO EACH OTHER. IT DIDN'T HURT BECAUSE, EVERY DAY, WE HAD AN INSTRUCTOR ON TELEVISION, A BEAUTIFUL FRENCH GIRL, TEACHING US, SO WE WERE ALL EAGER STUDENTS.

WARREN>> I DON'T THINK ANYBODY REALLY, OR VERY FEW PEOPLE, REALIZE THAT THERE ARE PRISONS LIKE THIS AND THAT THEY ARE STILL PRISONERS. WHO'S IN THEM?

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, MOSTLY WHITE COLLAR. ACTUALLY, LOMPOC, WHITE COLLAR. THE FEDERAL PRISON IN FT. WORTH WAS SORT OF A MIXED GROUP, BUT YOU MEET ALL KINDS OF INTERESTING PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, YOU THINK OF A CRIMINAL AS BEING SOME -- THERE ARE TERRIBLE CRIMINALS, LET'S FACE IT, AND THERE'S AWFUL THINGS THAT HAPPEN TO PEOPLE, BUT A LOT OF THE WHITE COLLAR PRISONERS PARTICULARLY ARE VERY BRIGHT PEOPLE AND THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN LIFE UNTIL THEY HAD A MISS-STEP. YOU MEET INTELLECTUAL PEOPLE AND PEOPLE INTERESTED, MUSICIANS, JUDGES, OTHER LAWYERS, DOCTORS --

WARREN>> A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS MIGHT SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, IF YOU GOT A FRENCH CLUB AND YOU GOT THE OPERA CLUB AND YOU GOT A GUY WITH AN EXTRAORDINARY RECORD AS AN ATTORNEY TO HELP YOU GET OUT, YOU'RE REALLY NOT BEING PUNISHED.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, YES, YOU'RE BEING PUNISHED BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN THIS HAPPENS TO YOU -- I HAD, I THOUGHT, A PRETTY GOOD REPUTATION AND A SUCCESSFUL ONE, AND IT'S A GREAT FALL. BUT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT YOURSELF AND REALIZE WHO YOU REALLY ARE AND CHECK YOUR EGO AT THE DOOR. YOU'RE JUST A PERSON TRYING TO GET ALONG IN THIS LIFE, TRYING TO SURVIVE THE THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU. SO YOU TAKE STOCK OF YOURSELF AND YOU HAVE TO DO THAT TO SURVIVE. THERE'S BEEN PEOPLE IN PRISON CAMPS. THEY HAVE TO SURVIVE IN FAR WORSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

YOU SAY PUNISHMENT. IT'S PUNISHMENT TO BE CONFINED AND NOT HAVE FREEDOM AND NOT BE OUT THERE VOTING AND DOING THINGS YOU DO EVERY DAY AND YOU MISS THOSE THINGS VERY, VERY MUCH, BUT YOU MUST MAKE THE BEST OF IT. THEY WANT YOU TO BE USEFUL, REALLY, IN THOSE PRISONS, PARTICULARLY FEDERAL PRISONS, SO EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A JOB AND DO SOMETHING. THE LEISURE HOURS, THOUGH, WE HAD THE OPERA CLUB AND WE HAD THE FRENCH CLUB AND THAT MAKES LIFE A LITTLE BETTER.

WARREN>> I DON'T THINK THAT YOU HAD A REPUTATION AS A MODEST OR HUMBLE MAN BEFORE THIS EXPERIENCE.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO EITHER.

WARREN>> DID THAT DO IT TO YOU?

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, I THINK -- YOU KNOW, I TRIED TO BE ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE AND I WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE. I HAD CASES IN 45 STATES. I MEAN, I ACTUALLY TRIED CASES IN 45 STATES AND I WAS IN TEN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES. I WAS JUST FLYING HERE AND THERE. IN MY HEARING TO BE REINSTATED, ONE OF THE LAWYERS TESTIFIED AND SAID, "WELL, MARVIN WAS THERE AND WE WERE TALKING AND HE SAID, 'EXCUSE ME, I HAVE TO GO TO PARIS' AND CAME BACK TWO DAYS LATER." I WAS PRETTY MUCH ON A STREAK OF --

WARREN>> -- A PRETTY FAST LIFE.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> A FAST LIFE. WHEN YOU TRY TO LEAD A FAST LIFE, IT CATCHES UP WITH YOU, BELIEVE ME. IT CAUGHT UP WITH ME.

WARREN>> WELL, WHAT'S IT LIKE NOW AND ARE YOU ABLE TO ATTRACT CLIENTS? HOW MANY STATES ARE YOU TRYING CASES IN NOW?

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> WELL, I'VE JUST BEEN REINSTATED IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS OR MONTH AND A HALF. I HAVE CASES IN TWO OTHER STATES. I HAVE SEVERAL HERE. I'M GETTING CALLS.

WARREN>> WHAT ABOUT -- YOU HAD TO PAY A LOT OF MONEY BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ORDER TO --

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> YEAH, WITH THE PENALTIES AND INTEREST, IT'S QUITE A BIT, SO I'M HELPING TO PAY THEM BACK AS TIME GOES ON.

WARREN>> HAVE YOU GOT ANY WORDS OF ADVICE FOR THOSE YOUNG ATTORNEYS THAT ARE LIVING THAT FAST LIFE?

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> MY ADVICE IS STOP AND SMELL THE ROSES OF YOUR LIFE, NOT JUST THE ONES IN THE FLOWER GARDENS. STOP AND THINK AND, WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T DO IT. THAT'S MY ADVICE TO THEM.

WARREN>> WE WILL LEAVE IT AT THAT. MARVIN MITCHELSON, THANKS A LOT FOR COMING IN TO TALK TO US.

MARVIN MITCHELSON>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

WARREN>> SO THERE'S A REAL LESSON THERE. YOU'RE NEVER TOO OLD TO CHANGE. I GUESS, IF YOU REMEMBER MARVIN MITCHELSON, HE WAS FLAMBOYANT, HE WAS ARROGANT, HE WAS ON TOP OF THE WORLD. AND FEDERAL PRISON, EVEN IF YOU HAVE FRENCH CLUBS AND OPERA CLUBS AS HE DID, IS A LONG WAY DOWN.

VAL>> A LONG WAY DOWN. WELL, LIVE AND LEARN.

WELL, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MARVIN MITCHELSON'S CHANGE IN ATTITUDE OR HOW HE SPENT HIS TIME IN PRISON? WE'D LOVE TO HEAR YOUR COMMENTS ON THIS OR ANY OF OUR REPORTS HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT. HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN CONTACT US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

WARREN>> HAVE YOU MADE UP YOUR MIND WHO YOU'RE GOING TO VOTE FOR THIS COMING NOVEMBER? HAVE YOU EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT THE CANDIDATES OR THE ISSUES? BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY DECISION, YOU MAY WANT TO CONSULT PROJECT VOTE SMART.

VAL>> PROJECT VOTE SMART IS A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION DEVOTED TO GETTING YOU, THE VOTER, WHAT YOU REALLY NEED MOST WHEN YOU GO TO THE POLLS, AND THAT IS UNBIASED INFORMATION ABOUT THE CANDIDATES AND THE BALLOT MEASURES. WE TAKE A LOOK AT PROJECT VOTE SMART IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

PROJECT VOTE SMART COMPILES VAST AMOUNTS OF INFORMATION ON CANDIDATES IN STATE AND NATIONAL ELECTIONS AND THEY MAKE IT ALL AVAILABLE FOR FREE ON THE INTERNET OR EVEN BY PHONE.

WARREN>> RICHARD KIMBALL, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> IT'S GREAT TO BE ON.

WARREN>> VOTE SMART. WHAT IS IT?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> WELL, IT'S A VERY UNUSUAL ORGANIZATION WHERE STUDENTS COME IN FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY THAT ARE TOP IN THEIR CLASS TO DO POLITICAL RESEARCH ON CANDIDATES. THEY INVESTIGATE THEIR CAMPAIGN FINANCES, THEIR PROFESSIONAL HISTORIES, THEIR VOTING RECORDS. THEY FIND OUT WHAT VARIOUS SPECIAL INTERESTS HAVE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THEM, THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE GROUPS, THE RIGHT TO LIFE GROUPS, THE LABOR, THE BUSINESS, THE LAWYERS, THE DOCTORS, ALL OF THEM, COLLECT IT IN A DATABASE THAT CITIZENS CAN ACTUALLY ACCESS TO CHECK THE CREDIBILITY OF THE OFTEN MISLEADING CLAIMS THEY'LL MAKE WHEN THEY'RE TRYING TO COMPETE FOR YOUR VOTE.

WARREN>> HOW ABOUT TALKING TO THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> WELL, WE INTERVIEW ALL OF THEM, ALL 13,000 IN THE COUNTRY, FROM THE STATE LEGISLATURE UP TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, IN A VERY TOUGH, NO WIGGLE ROOM QUESTIONNAIRE. BUT THE QUESTIONNAIRE IS BASICALLY DESIGNED IN ITS APPLICATION TO TEST A CANDIDATE'S WILLINGNESS TO DO THE RIGHT AND HONORABLE THING AND PROVIDE CITIZENS WITH THAT MOST CRUCIAL COMPONENT IN OUR STRUGGLE TO SELF-GOVERN, WHICH IS WHAT THEY INTEND TO DO FOR US, OR TO US, SHOULD THEY GET ELECTED TO OFFICE.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE WEB SITE AND IT'S OBVIOUSLY AVAILABLE TO ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO LOG ON. HERE'S WHAT THEY'LL FIND IF THEY GO THERE. A LOT OF THINGS, OF COURSE, BUT THIS ONE WE'LL START OFF WITH A LOOK AT THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES. I THINK WE'VE CLICKED ON BUSH, AND HERE WE'RE ABOUT TO FIND OUT, OH, BIOGRAPHY, CAMPAIGN FINANCE. SO ALL THESE ARE RESEARCHED BY NONPARTISAN --

RICHARD KIMBALL>> RIGHT. IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT GROUP TO GET INVOLVED WITH. YOU CAN'T JOIN WITHOUT A POLITICAL ENEMY. YOU GOT GREEN PARTY MEMBERS, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS, SOME OF THEM QUITE PROMINENT LIKE GOLDWATER AND MCGOVERN JOINED A FEW YEARS -- CARTER, FORD, --

VAL>> THESE ARE ALL THE CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT? OH, MY GOSH.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> YEAH, THERE ARE 160 CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT. PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT WE COVER -- WE DON'T MAKE THAT DISTINCTION WHO'S SUPPOSED TO BE SERIOUS AND WHO ISN'T. WE COVER THEM ALL.

VAL>> WE CAN GET EVERYBODY.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> YEAH, WE COVER THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY WHO WAS REGISTERED AND ON THE BALLOT IN LAS VEGAS, NEVADA. SO, I MEAN, WE'RE NOT PARTISAN.

WARREN>> OKAY, HERE'S THE GOVERNOR AND PRESUMABLY THE ISSUE POSITIONS OF GOVERNOR BUSH. HOW DO YOU CHECK BETWEEN WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT AN ISSUE AND WHAT THE RECORD SHOWS?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> WELL, THE MOST PROBABLY ACCURATE ESTIMATE OF WHAT A CANDIDATE WILL DO IN OFFICE WILL MIRROR WHAT THEY'VE PROBABLY DONE IN THE PAST. SO WE REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THEY'VE DONE IN THE PAST AND THEN WE INTERVIEW THEM ON THE ISSUES THEY'RE MOST LIKELY TO BE CONFRONTED BY IF THEY'RE HIRED FOR THAT JOB.

WARREN>> BUT BOTH THINGS ARE AVAILABLE ON THIS WEB SITE? NOT ONLY WHAT THEY SAY, BUT WHAT THEY'VE DONE?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> YEAH, YOU CAN LOOK UP HOW THEY VOTED, WHO GAVE THEM MONEY, MAYBE THERE'S AN ASSOCIATION, MAYBE THERE ISN'T. YOU CAN FIND OUT THEIR PROFESSIONAL HISTORIES AND WHAT THE SPECIAL INTERESTS -- WHAT WE REFER TO AT PROJECT VOTE SMART AS SELFISH INTERESTS -- HAVE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THEM. IT'S A VERY GOOD WAY TO FIND OUT, YOU KNOW, GET ACCURATE INFORMATION ABOUT THEM.

WARREN>> OKAY, AND IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT CANDIDATES ARE ON YOUR BALLOT AND ALL ABOUT THEM, YOU CAN PUT YOUR ZIP CODE IN AND PROGRAM IT THAT WAY. WE CAN SHOW THAT, I THINK, HERE ON OUR VIDEO AS WELL.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> EVEN EASIER, IT'S JUST LIKE A NATIONAL LIBRARY OF POLITICAL INFORMATION. YOU CAN CALL OUR HOTLINE AT 888-VOTE-SMART AND GET A REAL LIVE PERSON, ONE OF HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THAT SIT THERE ON THE PHONES, AND THEY'LL LOOK IT UP.

WARREN>> AND HERE YOU ARE WITH THE ZIP CODE. THIS HAS BEEN PUT INTO THE COMPUTER AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT'S AVAILABLE IN THIS PARTICULAR ZIP CODE. HERE ARE ALL THE CANDIDATES FOR THE ASSEMBLY, FOR GOVERNOR, FOR SENATE AND SO ON THAT ARE ON THE -- NOT THE GOVERNOR THIS YEAR, BUT --

RICHARD KIMBALL>> WELL, BASICALLY, WE HAVE THEM TOO. WE TRACK THEM AFTER THEY WIN. BUT BASICALLY WHAT WE DO IS FORCE THE CANDIDATES, WITH OR WITHOUT THEIR COOPERATION, TO FILL OUT A DETAILED APPLICATION OF EMPLOYMENT.

VAL>> WELL, THAT'S A TOUGH RATE. WE GOT ROGAN BECAUSE HE WOULD BE --

WARREN>> -- RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION INTO CONGRESS, CHALLENGED BY ADAM SCHIFF, THE STATE SENATOR, --

VAL>> -- ALL THAT'S HIS VOTING RECORD, BALANCED BUDGET --

WARREN>> AND, AGAIN NOW, YOU CAN TAKE AN ISSUE AND CHECK TO SEE IF HE TOOK CONTRIBUTIONS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN INTEREST IN AN ISSUE HE VOTED ON?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THE CONTRIBUTIONS, YOU CAN SEE WHAT THEY SAID THE LAST TIME THEY SOUGHT YOUR VOTE AND SEE HOW THEY ACTUALLY PERFORMED IN CONGRESS. IT REALLY PUTS THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE.

VAL>> THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE DATABASE. HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE THEM TO GET ALL THIS MASSIVE INFORMATION?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> IT TAKES HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE. THERE IS OFFERAGE LIKE THE PEACE CORPS. YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY APPLY TO COME. IT'S IN THIS SPECTACULAR RETREAT LOCATION IN THE MOUNTAINS OF MONTANA THEY'RE PROVIDED AS THEIR ONLY REWARD TO GO THROUGH THIS HELL.

WARREN>> ONLY DURING THE SUMMER, THOUGH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE UP THERE IN THE WINTER?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> NO, IT'S YEAR-ROUND.

VAL>> YEAR-ROUND?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> WE HAVE SKIING AND CROSS-COUNTRY AND SNOWMOBILING AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF.

WARREN>> SO THEY'RE ALL UP THERE, ALL OF THESE SCHOLARS AND CAREFULLY CHOSEN PEOPLE, SIFTING THROUGH ALL OF THIS INFORMATION?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> RIGHT, AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT WORK. YOU CAN'T IMAGINE. YOU COVER 13,000 CANDIDATES AND, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU HAVE TO REPEAT IT 13,000 TIMES. SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO PULL OFF THE WORK, WHICH IS WHY IT'S OPERATED LIKE THE PEACE CORPS IN VOLUNTEERING.

WARREN>> VERY QUICKLY, IN CASE ANYBODY WAS WONDERING, WE HAVE IN CALIFORNIA THE INITIATIVE AND THERE ARE BALLOT MEASURES EVERY YEAR AND THOSE, TOO, ARE ON THE SCREEN. THERE THEY ARE.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> THEY'RE JUST ENTERING THOSE. IF ANY OF THE VIEWERS ARE NOT REGISTERED TO VOTE, YOU CAN REGISTER TO VOTE RIGHT OVER THE SYSTEM. YOU CAN DO ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

VAL>> SO, LIKE CALIFORNIA, THE BALLOT MEASURES COMING UP SO FAR, THERE THEY ARE. CURRENT AND HISTORICAL.

WARREN>> -- AND HISTORICAL, SO YOU GOT A BACKGROUND AND YOU CAN TRACE THE HISTORY. SOMETIMES THEY COME UP AGAIN AND AGAIN. YOU HEAR THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE FIGHTING WITH THE TRAVELERS OR WHATEVER.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> IT'S THE POWER THAT WE GIVE THE CITIZENS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE WHAT THEY'VE DONE AND ACTUALLY TRACK THEIR RECORD INSTEAD OF JUST LISTENING TO ALL THE RHETORIC AND THE OFTEN SELF-SERVING POLITICAL COMMERCIALS THEY BOMBARD US WITH. YOU CAN SORT OF IGNORE THAT AND GET ABUNDANT, ACCURATE, FACTUAL, RELEVANT INFORMATION ON YOUR OWN UNIQUE CONCERNS.

WARREN>> SO THIS IS FOR THE VOTER WHO REALLY WANTS TO KNOW AND HAS THE TIME AND THE INTEREST TO FIND OUT?

RICHARD KIMBALL>> RIGHT. IT'S VERY SIMPLE. YOU KNOW, EVEN IF YOU CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH, WE CAN HELP YOU. IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOUR CANDIDATES ARE, WE CAN TELL YOU IF YOU JUST GIVE US YOUR ZIP CODE. WE'LL GO THROUGH IT OVER THE HOT LINES OR YOU CAN DO IT. IT'S JUST LIKE CONTACTING THE LOCAL LIBRARY. IN FACT, THERE ARE 4,000 LOCAL LIBRARIES THAT ARE NOW SPONSORING AND AVAILABLE IN THE COMMUNITIES.

WARREN>> IT'S A VAST SOURCE OF INFORMATION. WE'RE ALL VERY GLAD TO HEAR ABOUT IT, INCLUDING ME. I'M A POLITICAL REPORTER. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ALL THIS STUFF, SO THANK YOU AND ALL OUR VIEWERS WILL WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT AS WELL.

RICHARD KIMBALL>> THANKS FOR HAVING US ON.

VAL>> HECK OF A LOT BETTER THAN THOSE 30-SECOND SPOTS ON TV. THANK YOU SO MUCH, RICHARD KIMBALL, FROM PROJECT VOTE SMART. THE NUMBER AND THE WEB SITE FOR PROJECT VOTE SMART ARE ON YOUR SCREEN. THE GROUP PROVIDES INFORMATION ON ISSUES, AS WE SAID, CANDIDATES IN CALIFORNIA, OR ANYWHERE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. CHECK IT OUT.

[888-VOTE-SMART]
[WWW.VOTESMART.ORG]

WARREN>> THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.

TOMORROW ON WHICH WAY LA, DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REALLY HAVE TRILLIONS OF SURPLUS DOLLARS? ESTATE TAXES AND THE MARRIAGE PENALTY ARE JUST SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT COULD END UP IN THIS YEAR'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. THAT'S TOMORROW.

KCRW 89.9 FM, WHICH WAY LA
WEEKDAYS FROM 1-2 P.M.
REBROADCAST AT 7:00 P.M.

VAL>> FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A GREAT EVENING. THANKS FOR WATCHING.

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