7/21/00

LC000721

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

WARREN>> HAVE YOU NOTICED ALL THOSE ADS FOR PRESCRIPTION DRUGS IN NEWSPAPERS AND MAGAZINES AND ON TV? HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED IF ONE OF THOSE PILLS MIGHT HELP YOU?

NOAH NELSON>> SINCE THE FDA RELAXED ITS STANDARDS FOR DRUG ADVERTISING ON TV IN 1997, DRUG COMPANIES HAVE BEEN SPENDING OVER $350 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR ON DRUG ADS OF ALL TYPES AND RAKING IN HUGE PROFITS.

CAROL TAVRIS>> THE PUBLIC WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A PILL TO FIX ITS PROBLEMS JUST LIKE THAT. WOULDN'T THAT BE WONDERFUL? I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING SHY ANYMORE WHEN I GIVE A LECTURE. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING DEPRESSED OR UNHAPPY.

VAL>> AND MADDOX & HEWITT ON THE POLITICS OF LABOR.

MADDOX>> ORGANIZED LABOR RETHINKS THEIR POSITION ON JOINING PROTESTERS AT THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION.

HEWITT>> WE'D BETTER LEAVE NOW IF WE WANT TO MAKE IT ON TIME, AND CHARGES OF ANTI-SEMITISM AGAINST THE FIRST LADY. DO THEY HAVE LEGS IN LOS ANGELES?

MADDOX>> THEY HAVE NO LEGS IN LOS ANGELES. ALL THAT AND MORE COMING UP ON MADDOX & HEWITT.

WARREN>> ALSO TONIGHT, HE MAY NOT BE AS WELL KNOWN AS PICASSO YET, BUT ARSHILE GORKY, RUSSIAN BY NAME, ARMENIAN BY BIRTH, IS FINALLY GETTING THE RECOGNITION THAT HE DESERVES. WE'LL SEE HIS WORK AND HEAR ABOUT HIS LIFE.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT FOR FRIDAY, JULY 21, 2000.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

AND THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

WARREN>> GOOD EVENING, I'M WARREN OLNEY.

VAL>> AND I'M VAL ZAVALA.

WARREN>> OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, IS GOOD MARKETING BAD MEDICINE? ADS FOR PRESCRIPTION DRUGS ARE EVERYWHERE, ON TELEVISION, RADIO AND BILLBOARDS, TOUTING THE VALUE OF TAKING A CERTAIN BRAND OF PILL TO MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER. BUT SOME MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS ARE TROUBLED BY ALL THE HYPE.

VAL>> THE PROBLEM IS, SOME OF US WHO SEE THOSE ADS WILL GO TO OUR DOCTORS AND ASK FOR THAT PILL AND, AS NOAH NELSON FIRST TOLD US IN APRIL, PATIENTS MAY JUST GET A PRESCRIPTION WITHOUT THE PROPER EVALUATION.

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NOAH>> YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THEM. ADS FOR ANTI-DEPRESSANTS, PILLS TO ASSAULT PANIC ATTACKS AND MEDICINES THAT REDUCE SOMETHING CALLED SOCIAL ANXIETY DISORDER. FOR SOME TIME NOW, PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES HAVE BEEN MARKETING PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS DIRECTLY TO THE PUBLIC ON TV AND IN MAGAZINES. THESE KINDS OF DTCS, OR DIRECT TO CONSUMER ADS, USUALLY ASK IF YOU SUFFER FROM CERTAIN EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS THAT ARE HURTING YOUR LIFE. IN OTHER WORDS, HOW'S YOUR MENTAL HEALTH?

[COMMERCIAL FILM CLIP]

NOAH>> THE DRUG COMPANIES' DTC MARKETING STRATEGY ASSUMES THAT PEOPLE ARE GOOD JUDGES OF HOW THEY FEEL, BUT IS IT FAIR TO ASSUME THAT THEY ARE ALSO GOOD JUDGES OF WHAT PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THEY SHOULD TAKE? HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS ARE DIVIDED. ACCORDING TO DOCTOR JASON OLIN OF THE USC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE, THERE IS A DANGER IN PEOPLE DIAGNOSING THEMSELVES.

DR. JASON OLIN>> IF A PERSON READS AN AD FOR SOCIAL ANXIETY DISORDER AND THEY THINK, "WELL, YEAH, I GET ANXIOUS IN SITUATIONS. I SHOULD GO SEE MY DOCTOR AND GET SOME HELP WITH THAT" WHEN THEY DON'T REALLY MEET THE CRITERIA FOR THE DISORDER. OR THEY MAY JUST BE NO MORE ANXIOUS THAN ANY OF US WOULD BE IF WE HAD TO STAND UP AND MAKE A SPEECH. THEN THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

NOAH>> OLIN SAYS OFTEN PEOPLE WITH EMOTIONAL PROBLEMS GO TO THEIR FAMILY DOCTOR DEMANDING TO BE GIVEN AN ANTI-DEPRESSANT THAT THEY'VE HEARD OR READ ABOUT.

DR. JASON OLIN>> IF YOU TAKE PAXIL, FOR EXAMPLE. IT'S APPROVED FOR DEPRESSION, OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDER, PANIC DISORDER, SOCIAL ANXIETY DISORDER. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE OF THOSE THINGS, IT'S NOT EVEN CLEAR HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO BE HELPING YOU AND THE MEDICATIONS HAVE SIDE EFFECTS. IS IT WORTH HAVING SIDE EFFECTS? SIDE EFFECTS ARE NOT TRIVIAL. THAT'S REALLY, I THINK, THE WORST CASE YOU CAN MAKE ABOUT THESE KINDS OF THINGS. YOU'RE GIVING SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T REALLY HAVE A SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM A MEDICATION THAT HASN'T BEEN TESTED ON THEM THAT HAS SIDE EFFECTS.

NOAH>> THE SIDE EFFECTS OF PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS ARE LISTED IN THE FINE PRINT OF THEIR ADS AND THOSE SIDE EFFECTS CAN BE SIGNIFICANT. WEIGHT GAIN, DIFFICULTY SLEEPING, NERVOUSNESS AND LOSS OF LIBIDO CAN OCCUR WITH SOME OF THEM. PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES HAVE A BIG MARKETPLACE TO OPERATE IN AND THE LEVEL OF MENTAL ILLNESS IN THIS COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY IN BIG CITIES, IS THOUGHT TO BE RISING.

ACCORDING TO A STUDY BY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MENTAL HEALTH, SEVENTEEN PERCENT OF AMERICANS WILL SUFFER FROM MAJOR DEPRESSION SOMETIME IN THEIR LIVES. THIRTEEN PERCENT ARE SUFFERING FROM SOME KIND OF SOCIAL PHOBIA AND AT LEAST THREE PERCENT OF US ARE PRONE TO PANIC ATTACKS. AUTHOR AND SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGIST, CAROL TAVRIS, BELIEVES PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES ARE PREYING ON CONSUMERS BY PROMISING CURES THEIR PRODUCTS CAN'T ALWAYS DELIVER.

CAROL TAVRIS>> THE PUBLIC WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A PILL TO FIX ITS PROBLEMS JUST LIKE THAT. WOULDN'T THAT BE WONDERFUL? I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING SHY ANYMORE WHEN I GIVE A LECTURE. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING DEPRESSED OR UNHAPPY. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT BEING ANXIOUS OR ANGRY. I CAN JUST TAKE A PILL AND BLISS OUT.

NOAH>> TAVRIS SAYS THE EXPLOSION OF DRUG ADVERTISING IS THE RESULT OF WEAKER CONTROLS IN THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY AND OF THE GREED OF THE COMPANIES THEMSELVES.

CAROL TAVRIS>> DRUG ADVERTISING IS PART OF A LARGER PHENOMENON AND A LARGER PROBLEM IN OUR CULTURE, WHICH IS THE ENTIRE DEREGULATION OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY WHICH BEGAN IN THE 80'S AND WHICH HAS LED TO A WHOLE LOT OF CHANGES AND INCREASING POWER AND PROFITABILITY OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY. THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST PROFITABLE INDUSTRIES NOW IN AMERICA AND, FOR THAT MATTER, INTERNATIONALLY. THEY HAVE TREMENDOUS POWER AND, SLOWLY BUT SURELY, THE CONTROLS ON THIS POWER AND PROFITABILITY OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY HAVE BEEN WHITTLED AWAY.

[COMMERCIAL CLIP]

NOAH>> SINCE THE FDA RELAXED ITS STANDARDS FOR DRUG ADVERTISING ON TV IN 1997, DRUG COMPANIES HAVE BEEN SPENDING OVER $350 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR ON DRUG ADS OF ALL TYPES AND RAKING IN HUGE PROFITS. BUT PSYCHIATRIST, ARTHUR BRODY, OF UCLA, SEES AN EDUCATIONAL VALUE IN DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER ADVERTISING. HE SAYS BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF DEPRESSION IN THIS COUNTRY IS GREATLY UNDERESTIMATED, PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHAT'S AVAILABLE TO THEM.

ARTHUR BRODY>> I THINK THE ADS ARE HELPFUL IN THAT A PERSON CAN SIT AT HOME WITH A CHECKLIST AND SAY, "DO I HAVE THIS SYMPTOM, THIS SYMPTOM, THIS SYMPTOM" AND REALLY DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD MAKE THAT CALL FOR HELP.

NOAH>> BRODY SAYS, IN HIS EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE KNOW WHEN THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

ARTHUR BRODY>> THE MAJORITY OF THE TIMES, THE PATIENT IS RIGHT. THE MAJORITY OF THE TIMES, THE PATIENT WHO COMES IN TO ME AND SAYS, "I THINK I HAVE PANIC DISORDER" OR "I THINK I HAVE SOCIAL ANXIETY DISORDER", USUALLY THEY'RE RIGHT. THERE'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE, CERTAINLY UNDER TEN PERCENT OF THE CASES THAT I'VE SEEN, WHERE THE PATIENT COMES IN AND SAYS, "WELL, I THINK I HAVE THIS", BUT IT TURNS OUT THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME MILD SYMPTOMS OF IT, BUT THAT THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE THE FULL-BLOWN SYNDROME. SO IT'S REALLY A MINORITY OF CASES WHERE THE PERSON COMES IN DIAGNOSING THEMSELVES WITH SOMETHING THAT THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE.

NOAH>> BUT BEYOND THE DEBATE OVER DRUG ADS ARE THE VICTIMS OF DEPRESSION, ANXIETY AND PHOBIAS. PEOPLE LIKE 63-YEAR-OLD, ELAINE DES ROCHE, WHO HAS STRUGGLED WITH DEPRESSION AND THOUGHTS OF SUICIDE MOST OF HER LIFE.

ELAINE DES ROCHE>> YOU DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING OR A GREAT DEAL OF ANXIETY SETS IN WITH IT. I LOCKED MY DOORS, UNPLUGGED MY PHONE, WOULDN'T ANSWER THE DOOR, DIDN'T GET MY MAIL, JUST TOTALLY WITHDREW.

NOAH>> ELAINE DES ROCHE SEES NOTHING WRONG WITH ADVERTISING WHAT MEDICINES CAN DO AS LONG AS PEOPLE REALIZE, SHE SAYS, THAT DRUGS DON'T WORK MIRACLES.

ELAINE DES ROCHE>> I HAVE AS MUCH PEACE AND SERENITY AS ANYBODY CAN HAVE AT THIS POINT. RIGHT NOW, MY LIFE IS UNDER CONTROL. NOBODY CAN READ THE FUTURE, SO I AM GOING TO ENJOY THE NOW. LIKE THIS PARK.

WARREN>> BIG DIFFERENCE, OF COURSE, BETWEEN CLINICAL DEPRESSION AND JUST FEELING BAD. THIS IS AN UPDATE ON A STORY YOU DID IN APRIL, NOT VERY LONG AGO. HAS THERE BEEN A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE OR DECREASE, DO YOU THINK, SINCE THEN IN THE AMOUNT OF ADVERTISING?

NOAH>> WELL, THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP TRACK OF THIS KIND OF THING SAY THAT IT'S INCREASING AS THE PUBLIC ACCEPTS THESE KINDS OF ADS AND AS THE SALES OF THESE THINGS INCREASE.

VAL>> AND AS THE DRUG COMPANIES HAVE TO START COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER BECAUSE, IF ONE ADVERTISES, THE OTHER HAS TO ADVERTISE. BUT HAS THERE EVER BEEN A RECALL OF A DRUG THAT WAS ADVERTISED?

NOAH>> WELL, THERE HAVE BEEN PLENTY. ONE OF THEM IS ZELDANE. YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT DRUG. IT'S AN ANTIHISTAMINE. THEY FOUND OUT AFTER IT HAD BEEN MARKETED FOR A WHILE THAT, MIXED WITH SOME ANTIBIOTICS, IT PROVED TO BE FATAL. IT WAS THE CLARITIN OF ITS DAY AND IT GOT TO BE THAT POPULAR.

VAL>> SO IT COULD HAVE BEEN FATAL.

WARREN>> THE DOCTOR TALKED ABOUT A CHECKLIST FOR PROBLEMS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE. IS THERE ALSO A CHECKLIST THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT TO SEE WHAT KINDS OF PROBLEMS YOU MIGHT ENCOUNTER BECAUSE OF THE DRUGS THAT YOU'RE TAKING?

NOAH>> YES. THEY TELL YOU TO LOOK AT THE DIRECTIONS AND SAY, IF YOU FEEL THIS WAY, TELL YOUR DOCTOR. BUT YOU'VE GOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. A LOT OF PEOPLE TAKE THE MEDICINES WITHOUT ACTUALLY READING ALL THE MATERIAL THAT COMES INSIDE OF IT AND THAT'S PRETTY DANGEROUS.

VAL>> SO READ THE ENTIRE LABEL. NOAH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT UPDATE.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES WEEKEND, ITS ARTS AND CULTURE AND WE'LL MEET ONE OF THE LEGENDS OF PERFORMANCE ART.

>> SHE'S BEEN CALLED A MONUMENT AND A MARVEL, PERMANENTLY IMPALED ON THE CUTTING EDGE. RACHEL ROSENTHAL IS AN ARTIST WITH A UNIQUE STYLE THAT DEFIES CATEGORIES.

RACHEL ROSENTHAL>> I AM ME AND I'M BUILT THE WAY I'M BUILT AND I HAVE THE BRAIN THAT I HAVE AND I HAVE THE HISTORY THAT I HAVE, SO WHAT COMES OUT OF ME IS, YOU KNOW, ME OOZING OUT IN THAT FORM.

VAL>> RACHEL ROSENTHAL TOMORROW AT 2:00 P.M. ON LIFE AND TIMES WEEKEND EDITION.

WARREN>> THAT'S TOMORROW. THIS IS TONIGHT, FRIDAY, AND WE TURN OUR ATTENTION NOW TO THOSE POLITICAL ORACLES, MADDOX & HEWITT.

MADDOX>> HUGH, TWO BIG STORIES WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS WEEK. ONE HAS TO DO WITH HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, WHO'S RUNNING FOR U.S. SENATE IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK. THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS ABOUT ANTI-SEMITIC SLURS SHE MADE 26 YEARS AGO.

BUT THE BIG STORY HAS TO DO WITH THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION THAT'S COMING TO LA. TWO THINGS HAPPENED. ORGANIZED LABOR HAS DECIDED THEY'RE NOT GOING TO JOIN IN PROTEST OUTSIDE THE CONVENTION BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO EMBARRASS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, AL GORE. THEN A FEDERAL JUDGE RULED EARLIER THAT PROTESTERS AND DEMONSTRATORS DON'T HAVE TO MARCH IN THIS PERIMETER AREA SET UP BY THE MAYOR AND LAPD. THEY CAN LITERALLY WALK UP TO THE DOORS AT STAPLES CENTER AND MARCH AND DEMONSTRATE AND PROTEST. BIG VICTORY FOR THE PROTESTERS, THE MAYOR AND LAPD, AND THE LEADERSHIP IN THE CITY IS VERY UPSET. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE JUDGE'S RULING?

HEWITT>> WELL, OUR FRIENDS AT THE ACLU BROUGHT THE CASE, DAN TOKAJI, IN FACT. HE'S BEEN ON THIS SHOW A NUMBER OF TIMES. THEY'RE ELATED, ACTUALLY NOT TOO SURPRISED. IT LOOKED TO ME TO BE AN OVERLY RESTRICTIVE ZONE AND, AS A RESULT, NO ZONE AT ALL. THE JUDGE WAS RIGHT IN STRIKING THIS DOWN. THE TROUBLE IS, YOU KNOW, TO PARK AT THE STAPLES CENTER IS ALREADY A NIGHTMARE. I SAID EARLIER, YOU GOT TO GO TO MONROVIA BASICALLY. THERE IS NO MASS TRANSIT. THERE'S NO WAY TO GET THERE. WE'RE IN FOR A WORLD OF HURT, KERMAN, BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE ARE COMING. THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM. THEY'RE ENERGIZED. THEY'RE OUT TRAINING RIGHT NOW AT THE RUCKUS INSTITUTE IN THE SANTA MONICA MOUNTAINS. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

MADDOX>> WELL, I THINK POLITICALLY IT CUTS TWO WAYS. I THINK THE ACLU AND ALL THE OTHER FOLKS OBVIOUSLY WHO ARE GOING TO COME HERE AND MARCH AND DEMONSTRATE ARE HAPPY BECAUSE THEY ARGUE THAT IT GIVES THEM THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION. BUT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS SAID REPEATEDLY WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH POLICE TO TAKE CARE OF THE STAPLES CENTER AND THE REST OF THE CITY, EVEN THOUGH THE COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS GAVE THEM $1 MILLION DOLLARS THE OTHER DAY FOR SHERIFFS TO COME IN AND HELP.

BUT I THINK MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN THAT IS ACTUALLY THE DECISION BY ORGANIZED LABOR. ORGANIZED LABOR, AS YOU KNOW, HAD THE LION'S SHARE OF PEOPLE WHO WERE UP AT SEATTLE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE WTO DEMONSTRATIONS. THEY MADE A DECISION THIS WEEK, AND IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT DECISION, THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO JOIN IN THE PROTESTS OUTSIDE THE STAPLES CENTER. THAT MEANS A COUPLE OF THINGS. ONE, THAT MEANS YOU AREN'T GOING TO HAVE 50,000 THAT WE THOUGHT, BECAUSE ORGANIZED LABOR SUPPLIES BODIES TOO. ORGANIZED LABOR IS VERY GOOD AT ORGANIZING RALLIES AND MARCHES AND DEMONSTRATIONS. THEY GET A LOT OF PUBLICITY. THEN THERE IS THE ISSUE OF CREDIBILITY. THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THE ISSUE AND AGENDA AND FOCUS OF THESE PEOPLE ARE, SO THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A PART OF IT. POLITICALLY, THAT'S A BIG VICTORY FOR AL GORE, A BIG VICTORY FOR THE MAYOR, OF COURSE, THIS FALLS ON HIM. AND, OF COURSE, LAPD IS VERY CONCERNED BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE NUMBERS, SO TO SPEAK.

HEWITT>> IT'S ONLY A BIG VICTORY IF, IN FACT, THE PEOPLE STAY AWAY, IF, IN FACT, THE PULLING OF ORGANIZED LABOR SUPPORT MEANS THE WTO TYPES DON'T SHOW UP. I'M NOT SURE YOU CAN GO THERE BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH PUBLICITY. YES, IT'S GOING TO MEAN THAT THE NUMBERS WILL BE SMALLER BY HOWEVER MANY LABOR WOULD HAVE TURNED UP, BUT WE COULD STILL HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS. WE COULD STILL HAVE A NIGHTMARE ON OUR HANDS OUT IN FRONT OF STAPLES.

MADDOX>> I THINK YOU CAN HAVE 10,000 OR 15,000, BUT THAT'S NOT 50,000 PEOPLE. AGAIN, I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LEGITIMATE CAUSE, OF COURSE, THEY OUGHT TO MARCH AND DEMONSTRATE AND PROTEST TO THEIR HEARTS' DELIGHT. EVERYBODY IS CONCERNED WITH THE GROUPS THAT ARE GOING TO COME DOWN AND DO DESTRUCTIVE THINGS. OF COURSE, IF YOU HAVE A BUSINESS IN DOWNTOWN LA, YOU'RE REAL CONCERNED ABOUT THAT. AGAIN, IN A POLITICAL SENSE, I THINK THE LEADERSHIP IN THIS TOWN IS VERY PLEASED THAT ORGANIZED LABOR IS GOING TO STEP BACK BECAUSE, AS YOU KNOW, THEY ARE THE LARGEST SPECIAL INTEREST IN A DEMOCRATIC PARTY. AND THE LEADERSHIP SAID WE'RE GOING TO BE INSIDE STAPLES RATHER THAN OUTSIDE BECAUSE WE WANT TO INFLUENCE PEOPLE INSIDE THE BUILDING RATHER THAN OUTSIDE.

HEWITT>> WE'LL KNOW IF IT WORKED WHEN PEOPLE TURN ON THEIR TUBES. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR MADDOX & HEWITT BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE AT THE CONVENTION. IF WE'RE NOT THERE, WE'RE STUCK, YOU KNOW, 500 FEET AWAY, CAN'T GET THROUGH THE CROWD, THEN IT WILL NOT HAVE TURNED OUT THAT THE AFL-CIO CONTROL IT.

KERMAN, THE BIG STORY NATIONALLY HAS SOME LOCAL IMPLICATIONS. I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT ALL WEEK ON THE RADIO. MY CONSERVATIVE CALLERS TO KIEV ARE UPSET WITH ME.

MADDOX>> YOU HAVE CONSERVATIVE CALLERS?

HEWITT>> I HAVE SOME CONSERVATIVE CALLERS AT 870. THEY'RE A LITTLE BIT UPSET. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON WAS THE SUBJECT OF A NEW BOOK AND, IN THIS NEW BOOK, IT IS ALLEGED THAT SHE MADE AN ANTI-SEMITIC SLUR 26 YEARS AGO. THAT ANTI-SEMITIC SLUR HAS MADE LOTS OF HEADLINES, NEW YORK TIMES, WASHINGTON POST. WE'RE NOT TAKING OUT DIRTY LAUNDRY. IT'S BEEN MUCH DEBATED. I WON'T TALK ABOUT IT. I WILL NOT GIVE IT ANY CREDENCE. HERE'S MY ARGUMENT. I WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK.

PAUL FRAY IS THE PERSON WHO IS ALLEGED TO HAVE HEARD THIS, IN THE SUBJECT, THIS ANTI-SEMITIC SLUR. IF PEOPLE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE PAUL FRAY, THEY HAVE TO BELIEVE ANITA HILL BECAUSE THERE'S NO EVIDENCE FOR EITHER OF THEM. BUT MY QUESTION IS, FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO EMBRACED ANITA HILL IN THE CLARENCE THOMAS THING, WHO WENT WITH THAT SCURRILOUS SLANDER ON JUSTICE THOMAS, ARE THEY CONDEMNING PAUL FRAY NOW AND IS THERE SOME HYPOCRISY THERE? I WON'T TALK ABOUT PAUL FRAY BECAUSE I THOUGHT ANITA HILL WAS CRAZY AND OUT OF LINE. I THINK PAUL FRAY'S CRAZY AND OUT OF LINE TO MAKE THESE STATEMENTS. DO YOU SEE THE CONNECTION HERE?

MADDOX>> I DON'T ACTUALLY SEE THE CONNECTION. I SEE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO, BUT THE CONCERN I HAVE ABOUT MR. FRAY WHO MADE THE ALLEGATIONS, A COUPLE THINGS. ONE, IT HAPPENED 26 YEARS AGO AND IT'S HIS WORD AGAINST HERS. THAT'S ONE ISSUE. ISSUE NUMBER TWO IS, HE HAS BEEN DISBARRED IN THE STATE OF ARKANSAS BECAUSE HE IMPROPERLY CHANGED SOME LEGAL DOCUMENTS THAT RESULTED IN HIM LOSING HIS LICENSE TO PRACTICE LAW IN ARKANSAS, WHICH RAISES QUESTIONS OF CREDIBILITY IN MY MIND. IF THE GUY'S BEEN DISBARRED IN ARKANSAS, HOW CAN WE BELIEVE THAT HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON MADE A SLUR LIKE THIS?

THE OTHER THING IS, IF YOU WATCH THE CLINTONS, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING IN THEIR BACKGROUND THAT WOULD EVER DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY WOULD SAY ANYTHING AS INSENSITIVE AS THAT. NOW THERE'S A LOT OF CRITICISM ABOUT BILL CLINTON AND HILLARY CLINTON WHEN IT COMES TO CREDIBILITY AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT RACIAL SLURS AND ETHNIC SLURS AND ANTI-SEMITIC AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S IN THE MAKEUP OF HILLARY CLINTON TO DO THAT. SO I THINK IT HAS NO CREDIBILITY.

HEWITT>> WELL, I DON'T IT HAS CREDIBILITY EITHER. I DIDN'T THINK ANITA HILL HAD CREDIBILITY. I THINK IT'S TOUGH TO GO, YES, ANITA HILL AND PAUL FRAY DOESN'T. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT JERRY [KNOCKMAN], OUR OLD FRIEND, SAID ON THE RADIO SHOW YESTERDAY. I HAD HIM ON. JERRY SAID IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IT. THERE'S TEN PERCENT OF THE ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWISH POPULATION IN NEW YORK THAT DOES BELIEVE IT, OR AT LEAST BELIEVES THERE'S ENOUGH THERE. WHERE THERE'S SMOKE THERE'S FIRE. IT HURTS HER BADLY. MY QUESTION IS, IN THE JEWISH POPULATION OF LOS ANGELES, DOES THIS HAVE ANY LEGS? JERRY [KNOCKMAN] SAYS, IN NEW YORK, IT'S DEFINITELY A HIT, BUT IN THE NATIONAL ELECTION, WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD FROM THE DEMOCRATS LOCALLY?

MADDOX>> I'VE HEARD TWO THINGS. ONE, I TALKED TO MY FRIENDS IN NEW YORK. THEY SAY MOST PEOPLE IN NEW YORK HAVE MADE UP THEIR MINDS ALREADY. THERE'S NOT A LARGE NUMBER OF UNDECIDED. BUT IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF LOS ANGELES, I DON'T THINK PEOPLE BELIEVE IT'S AN ISSUE, AND I THINK THERE ARE TWO REASONS. ONE, I THINK THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN VERY, VERY CLOSE AND FRIENDLY TO THE JEWISH COMMUNITY. AGAIN, I THINK THERE ARE CREDIBILITY ISSUES WITH THIS GUY AND I THINK THE FACT THAT IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED 26 YEARS AGO RAISES A LOTS OF QUESTIONS IN PEOPLES' MINDS. SO I DON'T THINK IT'S A BIG ISSUE IN LOS ANGELES. I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE A BIG ISSUE IN THAT SENATE RACE. I'VE PREDICTED BEFORE AND I'LL PREDICT AGAIN, I THINK HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON IS GOING TO WIN THAT U.S. SENATE RACE.

HEWITT>> EVER THE OPTIMIST, KERMAN. WE'LL RETURN TO THAT SUBJECT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, BUT NOW IT'S TIME TO RETURN TO WARREN AND VAL.

VAL>> THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN.

IT'S TIME NOW TO HEAR WHAT YOU, OUR VIEWERS, HAVE TO SAY ABOUT OUR SHOWS. LAST THURSDAY, WE REPORTED ON THE RECENT INCREASE IN VIOLENT CRIME IN SOUTH AND CENTRAL LOS ANGELES. MIKE BINKLEY SENT AN E-MAIL TO SAY WE MISSED THE OBVIOUS:

"WHY CAN'T LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT PRODUCE AT LEAST ONE STORY... ON THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM: DRUG PROHIBITION?... (IT IS) A FOOLISH REPLAY OF PROHIBITION...CAUSING THE SAME SOCIAL PATHOLOGIES: HIGH CRIME LEVELS; POWERFUL VIOLENT GANGS; AN THE UGLY BRUTAL CULTURE; AND SO ON..."

WARREN>> AND ON TUESDAY, WE TALKED ABOUT THE HIGH PRICE OF PRESCRIPTION MEDICINE AND BILL MELCHER WROTE OF HIS RECENT EXPERIENCE. HE PICKS UP THREE PRESCRIPTIONS REGULARLY AT HIS PHARMACY, BUT SUDDENLY:

"WITHOUT EXPLANATION OR APOLOGY, THE MONTHLY COST JUMPED (FROM $145) TO $226.31...I SEARCHED THE WEB...AND FOUND...THE SAME THREE MEDICINES FOR $100.56. THE MORAL OF THIS LITTLE TALE IS, "MY MAMA TOL' ME YOU'VE GOTTA SHOP AROUND". AND SHOP ON-LINE IF YOU CAN."

WARREN>> WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF THE ISSUES WE COVER ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AND HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE & TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

VAL>> WE NOW HAVE AN UPDATE ON MONDAY'S STORY ABOUT THE CRACKDOWN ON HOTELS IN LA'S SKID ROW. THE CITY DECLARED THOSE BUSINESSES NUISANCES AND ORDERED THEM TO COMPLY WITH A LIST OF CONDITIONS THAT INCLUDED CAMERAS, 24-HOUR SECURITY GUARDS AND EVEN FINGERPRINTING OF GUESTS. WELL, ONE OF THE HOTELS WE PROFILED WAS THE SIMONE HOTEL. IT IS RUN BY A NONPROFIT CENTER TO PROVIDE HOUSING FOR PEOPLE WITH DRUG DEPENDENCIES, MENTAL ILLNESS OR HIV. NOW THE OWNERS HAVE PROVED THAT CRIME STATISTICS CONNECTED WITH THE SIMONE THAT WERE INCLUDED IN THE CITY'S REPORT AND IN OUR REPORT WERE ACTUALLY INCORRECT. THEY WERE OVERSTATED. AS A RESULT, THE CITY HAS NOW TAKEN THE SIMONE HOTEL OFF THE LIST OF NUISANCE BUSINESSES AND DROPPED ALL OF THE CONDITIONS IMPOSED AGAINST IT.

WARREN>> A CHANGE OF PACE NOW. ARMENIAN PAINTER, ARSHILE GORKY, IS LARGELY UNKNOWN IN THIS COUNTRY, EVEN AMONG SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S LARGE ARMENIAN COMMUNITY. THAT MAY BE ABOUT TO CHANGE.

VAL>> GORKY WAS JUST BEGINNING TO GAIN RECOGNITION WHEN HE COMMITTED SUICIDE AT AN EARLY AGE. NOW A NEW BIOGRAPHY IS RENEWING INTEREST IN THIS GROUNDBREAKING ARTIST. WE TALK WITH THE AUTHOR OF "BLACK ANGEL", ABOUT THE WORK AND LIFE OF ARSHILE GORKY, IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS.

ALTHOUGH GORKY HAD A TUMULTUOUS CHILDHOOD IN ARMENIA, HE MADE HIS WAY TO AMERICA AND LIFE AS AN ARTIST. HIS WORK RANGED FROM SURREALISM TO ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM AND INFLUENCED A GENERATION OF PAINTERS, INCLUDING WILLEM DE KOONING, MARK ROTHKO AND JACKSON POLLOCK.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> I'M THRILLED TO BE HERE.

VAL>> "BLACK ANGEL", THE LIFE OF ARSHILE GORKY. HE'S AN ALMOST UNKNOWN ARTIST. HOW COME HE'S GONE UNKNOWN FOR SO LONG?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY THAT HE HASN'T BEEN AS WELL-KNOWN AS SOME, FOR INSTANCE, HIS CONTEMPORARIES, DE KOONING AND POLLOCK. THE REASON IS THAT GORKY COMMITTED SUICIDE JUST AS HIS WORKS WERE BECOMING SUCCESSFUL AND HE WAS GETTING TO BE WELL KNOWN IN 1948. SO HE REALLY MISSED THE CREST OF THE WAVE AND THE OTHERS GOT AHEAD OF HIM. BUT HE IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE RECOGNIZED NOW.

WARREN>> YOU SAY DE KOONING AND POLLOCK. THESE ARE EXTRAORDINARILY WELL-KNOWN AND RECOGNIZED ARTISTS. IS HE IN THAT CATEGORY?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> ABSOLUTELY. IN FACT, DE KOONING THOUGHT OF GORKY AS HIS GURU. HE USED TO FOLLOW HIM AROUND AND OFTEN SAID HOW EXTRAORDINARY GORKY WAS AND THAT GORKY WAS THE "CHIEF". HE USED THE WORD "CHIEF". YOU KNOW, GORKY REALLY PUSHED THOSE ARTISTS TOWARD CONTEMPORARY ART, TOWARD PAINTING ABSTRACT WORK, TO LOOK AT PICASSO, TO LEARN FROM THE FRENCH SCHOOL RATHER THAN BEING STUCK IN THE AMERICAN REGION OF PAINTING WHICH WAS VERY MUCH THE PERIOD IN NEW YORK.

WARREN>> BUT, IN ADDITION TO HIS WORK, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'RE FOCUSING ON, THAT YOU'RE DRAMATIZING AT THE SKIRBALL, IS HIS LIFE, AND PARTICULARLY HIS LIFE WITH FOUR WOMEN.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> GORKY'S LIFE COULDN'T BE INVENTED. IT REALLY IS LIKE AN EXTRAORDINARY PIECE OF FICTION. HE WAS BORN IN 1902 NEAR LAKE VAN, WHICH WAS WESTERN ARMENIA. IT WAS HISTORIC WESTERN ARMENIA. HE SURVIVED THE GENOCIDE OF THE ARMENIANS. HE FOUGHT IN THE SIEGE AS A THIRTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY. THEN HIS MOTHER DIED OF STARVATION IN YEREVAN. THEY HAD ESCAPED THERE, WALKING 240 MILES OVER PARCHED LAND OF THE TERRITORY. HE GOT TO AMERICA WHEN HE WAS EIGHTEEN AND HE WAS ALL SET TO BECOME A PAINTER. THERE WAS NO QUESTION HE WAS GOING TO GO TO WORK IN FACTORY LIKE HE WAS TOLD TO DO. HE ACTUALLY MANAGED TO GET HIMSELF INTO THE BOSTON SCHOOL OF FINE ART --

WARREN>> -- AFTER THAT LIFE THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> YES, YES, AND THERE'S MUCH MORE.

WARREN>> -- HE WAS ONLY EIGHTEEN AND HE --

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> YES, HE HAD LIVED A WHOLE LIFE BY THE TIME HE WAS EIGHTEEN. WHEN HE GOT TO NEW YORK, HE WAS IMMEDIATELY MADE A TEACHER OF ART, DRAWING, AND HE ACTUALLY HAD AN EXTRAORDINARY ABILITY TO DRAW WELL. HE COULDN'T SPEAK AS A LITTLE BOY, BUT HE DREW. HE DREW, AND HIS MOTHER WOULD TAKE HIM TO CHURCH AND PRAY TO GOD THAT HE WOULD OPEN HIS TONGUE AND GORKY JUST WENT ON DRAWING.

VAL>> NOW HOW DID A YOUNG ARMENIAN BOY COME TO ACQUIRE SUCH A CLASSIC RUSSIAN NAME AS GORKY?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. GORKY, WHEN HE ARRIVED IN AMERICA, WAS TAGGED AS "STARVING ARMENIAN". YOU KNOW, THE ARMENIANS HAD BEEN HELPED BY CHARITY DURING THE GENOCIDE IN 1915 AND HE REALIZED THAT HE NEEDED A NEW PERSONA. HE WAS GOING TO FRONT IT OUT, SO HE CHOSE A NAME WHICH HE THOUGHT SUITED HIM AND HE ADMIRED THE WRITER, GORKY, SO HE CHOSE THAT NAME AND HE RECKONED THAT HE DIDN'T LOOK TOO AMERICAN, SO HE'D BETTER HAVE A RUSSIAN NAME.

VAL>> LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS. NOW THIS IS HIS MOST FAMOUS PAINTING?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> YES. THIS IS CALLED "THE ARTIST AND HIS MOTHER". REALLY, EVERYONE SAYS OF GORKY, HE WAS THE ARTIST WHO LOVED HIS MOTHER SO MUCH THAT HE PAINTED THIS MAGNIFICENT PICTURE OF HER.

WARREN>> AND TAKEN FROM A PHOTOGRAPH. WE'LL SHOW THE PHOTOGRAPH AS WELL AS THE PAINTING.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> IT WAS THE ONLY PHOTOGRAPH WHICH SURVIVED AND GOT TO AMERICA. HE BORROWED IT FROM HIS SISTER AND HE STARTED DRAWING IT. HE MADE HUNDREDS OF DRAWINGS. GORKY WAS REALLY PROLIFIC. HE WOULD THINK NOTHING OF TURNING OUT 100 DRAWINGS IN A NIGHT. THEN FROM THOSE DRAWINGS, HE STARTED DOING TWO PAINTINGS AND HE DID TWO VERSIONS OF THIS PAINTING. IT'S VERY INTERESTING. HE WORKED ON THEM FOR TWENTY YEARS.

VAL>> AND HE WENT ON TO DO VERY DIFFERENT STYLES. IT WAS A SURREALIST, REALLY, STYLE. BIG CHANGE HERE. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> HE WAS ALWAYS INTERESTED IN MODERN ART. HE WAS INTERESTED IN PICASSO PRINCIPALLY AND HE MANAGED, REALLY, TO COMBINE HIS OWN HERITAGE, WHICH WAS THE ILLUMINATED MANUSCRIPTS OF ARMENIA AND THE FAMOUS STONE CARVINGS OF ARMENIA. HE MANAGED TO CREATE THEM IN A VERY ABSTRACT WAY, TO RECREATE THE FEELING OF THAT WORK IN HIS OWN CANVASES.

WARREN>> SO WE CAN SHOW, THEN, THE STONE CROSS, THE ARMENIA MANUSCRIPT AND THEN THE PAINTING THAT INCLUDES BOTH OF THOSE ELEMENTS IN IT.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> THIS PAINTING HAS A TRAGIC STORY. GORKY HAD A FIRE IN HIS STUDIO AND ALL HIS PAINTINGS WERE BURNED JUST BEFORE HE WAS GOING TO HAVE AN EXHIBITION. HE SAID TO WIFE, "THAT'S ALL RIGHT. I REMEMBER THEM. I WAS THE ONE WHO PAINTED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE", AND HE PAINTED THEM ALL OVER AGAIN FROM MEMORY. THIS ONE HE CALLED "CHARRED BELOVED".

AFTER THAT, HE HAD A COLOSTOMY OPERATION AND, JUST AS HE WAS BEGINNING TO GET THE RECOGNITION -- FOR INSTANCE, GREENBERG SAID OF HIM, "HE'S THE FINEST PAINTER IN AMERICA". AT THAT POINT, HE BECAME ILL, HE HAD TO DEAL WITH THIS OPERATION, HE HAD A SEPARATION FROM HIS WIFE WHO LEFT HIM, THERE WAS A CAR ACCIDENT. HIS VERTEBRA WERE BROKEN IN HIS RIGHT HAND. THIS IS A MAN WHO HAD ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO SURVIVE BY DRAWING AND PAINTING AND HE COULD NO LONGER DRAW AND PAINT BECAUSE HIS HAND WAS PARALYZED AND THAT'S THE REASON HE TOOK HIS OWN LIFE.

WARREN>> AT WHAT AGE?

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> HE WAS 46.

WARREN>> TERRIBLY YOUNG.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> YES, VERY YOUNG.

VAL>> WELL, IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING HIS WORK AND HIS LIFE TO LIGHT. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

NOURITZA MATOSSIAN>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE. IT WAS WONDERFUL.

VAL>> IF YOU'D LIKE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS FASCINATING ARTIST, YOU CAN CHECK THE NUMBER AND WEB SITE ON YOUR SCREEN FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT NOURITZA MATOSSIAN'S DRAMATIZATION OF "BLACK ANGEL", THE LIFE OF ARSHILE GORKY. IT IS PLAYING THIS SATURDAY NIGHT AT THE SKIRBALL CULTURAL CENTER.

[310-476-6011]
[WWW.ARSHILE-GORKY.COM]

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