3/13/01

LC010313

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> ONE OF L.A.'S OLD-TIME HANGOUTS IS GETTING SOME SOPHISTICATED NEW NEIGHBORS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> FARMERS MARKET IS AN ICON IN A CITY THAT DOESN'T HAVE MANY OLD THINGS LEFT, BUT NOTHING STAYS THE SAME FOREVER.

RICK CARUSO>> I THINK THE ONE THING THE MARKET DOES NEED, IT NEEDS SOME FRESH BLOOD AND SOME NEW ENERGY BROUGHT TO IT.

VAL>> DO YOUR KIDS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A THREAT AND A JOKE WHEN IT COMES TO REPORTING SCHOOL VIOLENCE? WE'LL HEAR WHAT ONE STUDENT THINKS IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS.

JESS>> ALSO, PATT MORRISON IS A LITTLE PUT OUT ABOUT A CERTAIN PUT-ON.

PATT>> THE WORD LUNACY COMES FROM A WORD MEANING MOON. FIND OUT WHY A TV SHOW EARNED BOTH, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> AND MOST OF US JUST THINK OF AIRPLANES AS A MEANS OF TRAVEL, BUT ONE MAN VIEWS THESE MAGNIFICENT FLYING MACHINES AS SOMETHING MUCH MORE. WE TALK WITH PHOTOGRAPHER, BOB SEIDEMANN, ABOUT HIS PROJECT DOCUMENTING THE AIRPLANE AS ART.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW. OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, NEIGHBORHOOD JITTERS ABOUT THE NEW PEOPLE NEXT DOOR. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE L.A. FARMERS MARKET AND THE UPSCALE DEVELOPMENT TAKING SHAPE AROUND IT.

VAL>> NOW TRIPS TO THE FARMERS MARKET HAVE BEEN A CHERISHED SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRADITION FOR GENERATIONS, BUT WILL PEOPLE KEEP COMING IF IT'S SURROUNDED BY GRIDLOCK? PHILIP BRUCE FOUND SUPPORT FOR BOTH THE OLD AND THE NEW.

FILOMENA D'AMORE>> WE NEED SPAGHETTI RIGHT AWAY.

PHILIP>> THEY SERVE UP THE PASTA FRESH AND HOT ON A PAPER PLATE THE WAY THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY. THAT AND THE PIZZA THAT'S MADE HERE ACCORDING TO AN OLD FAMILY RECIPE.

FILOMENA D'AMORE>> OUR OVEN OVER THERE IS A 52-YEAR-OLD OVEN. CAN'T EVEN MAKE THEM LIKE THAT ANYMORE. MAKES GREAT PIZZA, SO IT STAYS THE SAME.

PHILIP>> FILOMENA D'AMORE GREW UP BEHIND THE COUNTER AND, EVEN THOUGH HER DAD IS GONE, HE STILL WATCHES OVER HER. THAT'S HIM ON THE LEFT NEXT TO "OL' BLUE EYES". BESIDES BEING PALS WITH SINATRA, HE'S A MAN WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE BROUGHT PIZZA TO LOS ANGELES IN 1939. THE ORIGINAL CAFÉ THAT BEARS HIS NAME, PATSY'S, IS STILL DOING BUSINESS AT THE FARMERS MARKET. FILOMENA IS BUSY KEEPING THE FAMILY TRADITION ALIVE.

FILOMENA D'AMORE>> EVERY DAY I HAVE PEOPLE SAYING "MY MOTHER USED TO BRING US HERE. MY GRANDPARENTS USED TO BRING US HERE WHEN WE WERE FIVE YEARS OLD, WHEN WE WERE TWO YEARS OLD", AND NOW THEY'RE 30, 40, 50 YEARS OLD, SO WE HAVE A LOT OF REGULARS.

PHILIP>> THE REGULARS REMEMBER THE WAY IT USED TO BE WHEN THE FARMERS MARKET WAS ONE OF THE CITY'S PRIME NEW GATHERING SPOTS. IT OPENED IN 1934 AND SOON CARVED OUT A NICHE AS A PLACE WHERE JUST PLAIN FOLKS MIGHT RUB ELBOWS WITH HOLLYWOOD'S ELITE. IT'S STILL AN ICON IN A CITY THAT DOESN'T HAVE MANY OLD ONES LEFT. BUT NOTHING STAYS THE SAME FOREVER, NOT EVEN THE FARMERS MARKET.

RICK CARUSO>> I THINK THE ONE THING THE MARKET DOES NEED, IT NEEDS FRESH BLOOD AND SOME NEW ENERGY BROUGHT TO IT.

PHILIP>> RICK CARUSO IS PUTTING HIS MONEY WHERE HIS MOUTH IS, $150 MILLION DOLLARS TO BE EXACT. NEXT DOOR TO THE FARMERS MARKET, HE'S BUILDING THE NEIGHBORHOOD'S NEXT BIG ATTRACTION. A STATE-OF-THE-ART OPEN-AIR SHOPPING COMPLEX THAT WILL FEATURE A NORDSTROM'S STORE, SEVERAL SMALLER RETAILERS AND RESTAURANTS, PLUS A 12-SCREEN CINEMA. IT'S CALLED THE GROVE. BY THIS TIME NEXT YEAR, IT SHOULD BE OPEN FOR BUSINESS, A FANCY NEW NEIGHBOR FOR THE FARMERS MARKET AND THE MOST NEW BUSINESS THE FAIRFAX DISTRICT HAS SEEN SINCE THE DAYS OF FDR.

RICK CARUSO>> WE STARTED FROM THE PREMISE THAT THE MARKET CAN'T BE TOUCHED, BUT IT'S ALSO AN ANCHOR, AND IT'S GOING TO FUEL A LOT OF THE TRAFFIC THAT'S GOING TO BE COMING THROUGH TO OUR PROJECT. WHEN YOU LOOK AT OUR SITE PLAN, THAT REALLY IS THE DESIGN. THERE'S A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ORIGINAL FARMERS MARKET AND THE GROVE, CONNECTED BY A TROLLEY, CONNECTED BY PEDESTRIAN CONNECTIONS.

ARCHITECT>> THE ORIGINAL MARKET IS LOCATED HERE.

PHILIP>> THE ARCHITECT HAS DESIGNED A BRAND-NEW OLD TOWN COMPLETE WITH A MAIN STREET FOR PEDESTRIANS, A PARK AND A PUBLIC SQUARE. THE TROLLEY RUNNING BETWEEN THE GROVE AND THE FARMERS MARKET WILL BE A REPLICA OF L.A.'S OLD RED CARS AND THE GLITZY THEATER LOBBY IS A NOD TO THE GREAT OLD MOVIE PALACES FROM HOLLYWOOD'S PAST.

ARCHITECT>> IT'S GOING TO APPEAR SCALE-WISE TO BE SOMETHING THAT'S REMINISCENT OF THINGS THAT ARE ON THE EAST COAST OR SAN FRANCISCO URBAN AREAS THAT ARE HEAVILY POPULATED. THE ARCHITECTURE, HOWEVER, IS INDIGENOUS TO LOS ANGELES.

PHILIP>> AS SHOPPING CENTERS GO, THIS ONE PROMISES TO BE GREAT. MOST EVERYBODY AGREES ON THAT. BUT WHAT PEOPLE DISAGREE ON IS THE LONG-TERM IMPACT ALL THOSE NEW SHOPS WILL HAVE ON THE NEIGHBORHOOD, WHETHER ALL THAT NEW BUSINESS IS WORTH THE HEADACHE OF POURING SEVERAL THOUSAND MORE CARS ON THE STREETS THAT ARE ALREADY JAMMED.

ALAN CANTER>> IT'S ALREADY DAUNTING, BASICALLY, SO THERE'S NOTHING THEY CAN DO ABOUT IT. I THINK IT WILL SCREW UP THE TRAFFIC.

PHILIP>> THAT'S THE WORRY FROM THE MAN WHO OWNS THE OTHER LANDMARK IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, CANTER'S DELI. LIKE THE FARMERS MARKET, IT'S ONE OF THE FEW PREVAILING SYMBOLS OF THE OLD FAIRFAX DISTRICT. CLEARLY, THE AREA ISN'T AS VITAL AS IT USED TO BE AND CANTER SAYS ALL THOSE POSH NEW SHOPS DEFINITELY WILL PROVIDE SOME NEW LIFE, BUT HE DOUBTS THE DEVELOPER'S CLAIMS THAT THEY CAN UPDATE THE TRAFFIC SIGNALS AND WIDEN THE STREETS TO AVOID GRIDLOCK.

ALAN CANTER>> IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO MOVE SO MANY CARS FROM POINT A TO B, AND IF THERE'S MORE CARS, IT'S GOING TO BE TOUGH.

PHILIP>> IF YOU WANT A DIFFERENT TAKE ON WHAT ALL THE CHANGES MEAN, CHECK IN WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION AT CANTER'S. ALAN'S SON, MARK, BELIEVES SOME PEOPLE MAY DECIDE TO LEAVE THEIR CARS AT HOME AND WALK TO ALL THAT NEW SHOPPING.

MARK CANTER>> I THINK IT WILL MAKE THAT FOOT TRAFFIC THAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW IT WAS IN THE 60'S AND EARLY 70'S CLOSE TO WHAT IT ONCE WAS, SO I THINK IT'S GREAT FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

PHILIP>> WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAPPENS, THERE WILL DEFINITELY BE MORE PEOPLE HERE AND NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE NEW SHOPPING CENTER. ACROSS THE STREET, THE OWNERS OF THE HISTORIC PARK LA BREA APARTMENT COMPLEX HAVE SOLD OFF THREE PARCELS OF LAND AND, ON THAT PROPERTY, ANOTHER DEVELOPER IS PLANNING TO BUILD 1,000 NEW LUXURY HIGH-RISE APARTMENTS. THE QUESTION IS, CAN THIS ALREADY-DENSE NEIGHBORHOOD ABSORB ALL THE NEW GROWTH WITHOUT SUFFERING A MELTDOWN?

SYDNEY WEISMAN>> WE FIRST MOVED INTO THIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND MOVED INTO PARK LA BREA PRIMARILY BECAUSE YOU COULD WALK TO EVERYTHING. YOU CAN WALK TO LACMA. YOU CAN WALK TO OTHER MUSEUMS, THE PAGE MUSEUM. YOU CAN WALK TO MOVIES, THEATER, FOOD, SHOPPING. IT'S THE MOST COSMOPOLITAN AREA IN, I THINK, ALL OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

PHILIP>> SYDNEY WEISMAN, SPOKESPERSON FOR THE FARMERS MARKET, SAYS SOON THERE WILL BE EVEN MORE PLACES TO WALK TO, ONE REASON SHE BELIEVES THAT TRAFFIC WON'T INCREASE ALL THAT MUCH. BUT THERE WILL BE CHANGES AND SOME WHO'VE SPENT THEIR LIVES HERE WORRY THE NEIGHBORHOOD'S CHARM WILL GET SWEPT AWAY IN THE NAME OF PROGRESS.

HANK HILTY>> MANY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY AND THROUGHOUT LOS ANGELES, YOU KNOW, FEEL AN OWNERSHIP OF THE MARKET. THEY USE THE MARKET ON A DAILY BASIS. THEY LOVE THE ENVIRONMENT OF THE MARKET, AND THEY HAD A LEGITIMATE CONCERN ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH IT.

PHILIP>> HANK HILTY IS THE GREAT-GRANDSON OF A.F. GILMORE, THE MAN WHO FOUNDED THE FARMERS MARKET. HE'S HAD TO CONVINCE THE CITY THAT CHANGE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A BAD THING AND HILTY HAS PLENTY OF EXAMPLES. TAKE GILMORE FIELD, THE STADIUM HIS FAMILY BUILT NEXT DOOR TO THE MARKET. FOR YEARS, IT WAS A POPULAR VENUE FOR THE MINOR LEAGUE, HOLLYWOOD STARS, BUT THEN THE DODGERS CAME TO TOWN AND GILMORE FIELD DIED, YET THE FARMERS MARKET SURVIVED. TODAY, MARKET MERCHANTS LIKE SCOTT BENNETT ARE BETTING THAT THEIR FANCY NEW NEIGHBOR WILL HELP THEM SURVIVE A FEW MORE DECADES AND HE SAYS THE CRITICS WILL JUST HAVE TO GET USED TO IT.

SCOTT BENNETT>> YOU KNOW WHAT? THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT JUST DON'T LIKE CHANGE AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IT IS, YOU KNOW? BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS IS THAT IT WAS A BIG VACANT DIRT LOT AND YOU CAN'T EXPECT SOMEBODY TO OWN A BIG VACANT DIRT LOT AND NOT DO SOMETHING WITH IT IN THE CITY.

JESS>> THROUGHOUT THAT REPORT, ONE WORD THAT WAS NEVER UTTERED, A FOUR-LETTER WORD, I MIGHT ADD, WAS "MALL".

PHILIP>> AND I'LL TELL YOU, THE PEOPLE IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD WOULD HAVE PROBABLY GONE NUTS IF THAT HAD HAPPENED BECAUSE THEY HAD A BIG SAY IN WHAT THIS FINAL DEVELOPMENT LOOKED LIKE. THE ONE THING THEY DID NOT WANT WAS ANOTHER MALL. THIS IS GOING TO BE A COMPLETELY OPEN-AIR CONCEPT, THE KIND OF THING THAT MOST PEOPLE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD CAN AGREE WITH, BUT THE PARKING AND THE TRAFFIC ARE TWO BIG ISSUES.

VAL>> IT DID LOOK BEAUTIFUL, AND THE IDEA OF THE TROLLEY COMING THROUGH? SO THE MAIN COMPLAINT IS TRAFFIC?

PHILIP>> WELL, THAT'S A MAIN CONCERN. YOU KNOW, THE GILMORES OWN THE LAND WHERE THIS NEW SHOPPING CENTER IS GOING TO BE BUILT. ACTUALLY, THEY SOLD IT TO CARUSO WHO'S THE NEW DEVELOPER. THEY HAD A MAJOR CONCERN THEMSELVES IN THE RIGHT KIND OF THING GOING IN THERE. THEY DIDN'T WANT SOMETHING GOING IN THAT WOULD HURT THE FARMERS MARKET. YOU KNOW, EVEN IF THEY HADN'T BEEN CONCERNED, WHICH THEY VERY MUCH WERE, EVERYBODY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WAS, THEY BELIEVE THIS IS A NICE COMPROMISE AND THAT EVERYBODY CAN LIVE WITH THIS, BUT IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

JESS>> WAS THE FARMERS MARKET THREATENED? WAS IT ABOUT TO DISAPPEAR?

PHILIP>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S DOING OKAY, BUT, I MEAN, BY EVERYBODY'S ADMISSION, I THINK IT'S A LITTLE RAGGED AROUND THE EDGES AND THEY CAN CLEARLY DO BETTER ECONOMICALLY. MAYBE THIS WILL HELP.

VAL>> PHILIP, THANK YOU SO MUCH. 

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON THEIR BOATS, OR "LIVE-ABOARDS", SAY THEY'RE BEING FORCED OUT TO MAKE WAY FOR THE RICH.

LEAH SANDERS>> FROM A DISTANCE, MARINA DEL REY APPEARS TO HAVE IT ALL, A PICTURESQUE HARBOR FILLED WITH BEAUTIFUL BOATS, OCEAN-VIEW APARTMENTS AND PLENTY OF BEACHES, BUT SOME FEAR IT'S ABOUT TO BECOME A WATERFRONT BEVERLY HILLS.

>> AND THEY'RE JUST GETTING RID OF ANYTHING THAT THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR AESTHETICALLY BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH DEVELOPMENT GOING ON HERE IN THE MARINA.

VAL>> CONTROVERSY IN MARINA DEL REY. THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AT 7:00 P.M.

JESS>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WE LOOK AT A TOPIC THAT IS TRAGICALLY IN THE NEWS TOO OFTEN, SCHOOL VIOLENCE. TONIGHT WE'RE FOCUSING ON THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE IN SCHOOLS AND WHAT TEENAGERS OUGHT TO DO ABOUT IT.

VAL>> THE 15-YEAR-OLD BOY CHARGED WITH KILLING TWO CLASSMATES AT SANTANA HIGH SCHOOL TALKED ABOUT HIS PLAN, BUT NO ONE TOOK HIM SERIOUSLY. SO SHOULD STUDENTS REPORT ANY TALK OF VIOLENCE EVEN IF THEY THINK IT'S JUST A JOKE? JOINING US NOW IS MATT JONES. HE'S A REPORTER FOR L.A. YOUTH. IT'S A MAGAZINE FOR TEENAGERS AND BY TEENAGERS. WELCOME, MATT, TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

MATT JONES>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> MATT, YOU'RE A SENIOR AT LOS ANGELES CENTER FOR ENRICHED STUDIES? THAT'S YOUR HIGH SCHOOL?

MATT JONES>> YES.

JESS>> DO YOU HEAR THESE KINDS OF THREATS OR THESE KINDS OF COMMENTS AT YOUR SCHOOL?

MATT JONES>> I DO. NONE AS SERIOUS AS "I'M GOING TO SHOOT UP EVERYONE IN MY SCHOOL", BUT THE SAME KIND OF THREATS THAT I THINK CAN BE TAKEN AS REALLY VIOLENT THREATS.

JESS>> DO YOU REPORT THEM?

MATT JONES>> I DON'T. I MEAN, MOST OF THE TIME, THEY'RE MY FRIENDS AND I KNOW THAT THEY'RE KIDDING AROUND. IT'S REALLY HARD, I BELIEVE, TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO'S KIDDING AROUND AND SOMEONE WHO ISN'T. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT REPORTING ON EVERYONE THAT SAYS SOMETHING THAT YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH OR THINK IS VIOLENT IS NECESSARILY THE RIGHT WAY TO APPROACH IT.

VAL>> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF A TYPICAL "THREAT" THAT YOUR PEERS OR FELLOW STUDENTS MAY SAY.

MATT JONES>> WELL, ONE OF MY FRIENDS MIGHT GET MAD AT A GIRL OR SOMETHING AND HE'LL SAY, "I'M GOING TO KILL HER" OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT OR "I'M GOING TO GET HER" OR SOMETHING. IT'S IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT AND EVEN THE TONE OF HIS VOICE IS FUNNY. IT SOUNDS LIKE A JOKE AND I KNOW THAT IT'S A JOKE BECAUSE I KNOW THE PERSON AND I KNOW THE GIRL HE'S TALKING ABOUT. HE'S PROBABLY SAID IT A BUNCH OF TIMES BEFORE ABOUT HER AND SHE'S PROBABLY SAID IT ABOUT HIM. I'M NOT GOING TO GO TO MY TEACHER OR MY COUNSELOR AND TELL ABOUT THAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHEN --

VAL>> -- BUT THAT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF THREAT THAN SAYING, "I'M GOING TO KILL EVERYBODY IN THE SCHOOL" OR "I'M GOING TO BLOW THIS SCHOOL UP", RIGHT?

MATT JONES>> THE SAME KIND OF THING. STATEMENTS LIKE THAT TOO, I'LL HEAR, AND I KNOW THAT THEY'RE NOT SERIOUS. I GUESS I DON'T KNOW NOW WITH THE RECENT SHOOTINGS AND STUFF, BUT I DON'T THINK YOU REALLY CAN KNOW.

JESS>> BUT IF A STUDENT BROUGHT A GUN TO SCHOOL AND YOU WERE AWARE OF THAT?

MATT JONES>> OH, THEN I WOULD MOST DEFINITELY TELL SOMEONE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THAT'S A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.

JESS>> A KNIFE? A SUBSTANTIAL KNIFE?

MATT JONES>> A KNIFE TOO. ANY KIND OF WEAPON THAT I SAW, I WOULD RUN TO THE COUNSELOR'S OFFICE.

JESS>> AND MOST OF YOUR STUDENTS WOULD?

MATT JONES>> I BELIEVE SO.

VAL>> TELL US WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY SOME SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE RESPONDING TO THE SANTEE SHOOTING? IN THE NEWPORT-MESA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY ARE CONSIDERING IMPLEMENTING A ZERO TOLERANCE FOR BULLYING AND IF STUDENTS ARE JUDGED TO HAVE BULLIED PEOPLE, THEY'RE TRANSFERRED OUT OF THE DISTRICT. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

JESS>> THE PREMISE APPARENTLY IS THAT THE BULLYING IS WHAT PROMPTED THIS YOUNGSTER TO COME TO SCHOOL WITH A GUN.

VAL>> YES.

MATT JONES>> I THINK THAT BULLYING IS SUCH A PART IN TEENAGE LIFE IN GROWING UP AND EVERYONE AT ONE POINT IN TIME HAS BEEN BULLIED. I DON'T THINK THAT GETTING KICKED OUT OF YOUR HIGH SCHOOL OR HAVING ANY KIND OF -- THE COUNSELORS DOING ANYTHING TO YOU IS -- IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE SUBSTANTIAL ENOUGH TO KICK YOU OUT OF YOUR SCHOOL OR --

VAL>> -- TO WARRANT A TRANSFER.

MATT JONES>> HOW DO YOU DISTINGUISH -- I THINK YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY GOING AFTER SOMEONE BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE THAT, THAT WILL GO AFTER SOMEONE, AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST KIND OF KIDDING AROUND. IT'S ALL IN THE WAY THE PERSON THAT IS BEING BULLIED PERCEIVES IT AND YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING HOW THEY'RE PERCEIVING IT.

JESS>> AFTER THE SANTANA TRAGEDY, ARE STUDENTS FRIGHTENED?

MATT JONES>> I THINK THEY ARE. THEY WERE FRIGHTENED AFTER COLUMBINE AND THEY WERE FRIGHTENED AFTER EVERY OTHER INCIDENT THAT OCCURRED.

VAL>> DO YOU THINK THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GETTING A BAD RAP IN ALL THIS?

MATT JONES>> I THINK THEY ARE. I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE SEE TEENAGERS AND THEY THINK "OBSESSED WITH GUNS AND OBSESSED WITH VIOLENCE AND OBSESSED WITH ALL THIS", BUT SO ARE, I THINK, ADULTS IN OUR SOCIETY AND SO ARE OTHER GROUPS IN OUR SOCIETY. I THINK THAT MOST OF THE TIME PEOPLE DON'T REALLY KNOW A TEENAGER OR KNOW A GROUP OF TEENAGERS. THEY MIGHT KNOW ONE THAT WENT TO JAIL OR DIDN'T FINISH SCHOOL AND THEY THINK THAT ALL OF THEM ARE LIKE THAT. I THINK THERE ARE MORE LAYERS TO TEENAGERS AND IT'S NOT CUT AND DRIED, AS SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO --

JESS>> -- BUT YOU'D ACKNOWLEDGE THAT STUDENTS ARE EXPOSED TO AN EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE IN FILM --

MATT JONES>> -- YES.

JESS>> -- IN TELEVISION, IN VIDEO GAMES. DO YOU THINK THAT AFFECTS BEHAVIOR?

MATT JONES>> I THINK THAT IT COULD AFFECT BEHAVIOR IN SOMEONE THAT IS ALREADY PREDISPOSED TO DO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING. I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WEREN'T LISTENING TO MUSIC OR WATCHING TELEVISION, THEY'D READ A BOOK ABOUT IT. TRUMAN CAPOTE HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME AND HE CHRONICLED KILLINGS AND STUFF. SO, YOU KNOW, WHERE DO YOU REALLY DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN MEDIA? I THINK THAT IT'S AN ENTERTAINMENT OUTLET THAT SHOULD BE SEEN AS AN ENTERTAINMENT OUTLET. I THINK SOMETIMES IT DOES GET OUT OF HAND AND, YOU KNOW, THE ART IS TAKEN OUT OF IT. BUT, FOR THE MOST PART, I DON'T THINK THAT BY LIMITING WHAT WE CAN SEE IN THAT RESPECT IS THE ANSWER.

VAL>> WE ONLY HAVE A FEW SECONDS LEFT. WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE AN EFFECTIVE APPROACH TO REDUCING VIOLENCE AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE?

MATT JONES>> I BELIEVE IT STARTS IN THE FAMILY. I BELIEVE THAT, IF YOUR PARENTS ARE THERE FOR YOU AND THAT IF THEY -- BECAUSE THESE SIGNS CAN BE SEEN. IF YOU'RE BEING SECLUDED AND YOU'RE AWAY FROM YOUR FAMILY, NOT TALKING TO ANYONE, YOUR PARENTS CAN SEE THAT. THEY CAN SUGGEST YOU GET HELP, THEY CAN REPORT YOU TO THE COUNSELORS, LET THE COUNSELORS TAKE EXTRA CARE OF YOU, DO EXTRA THINGS WITH YOU, BE THERE FOR YOU. IF THEY CAN DO THAT, THEN I THINK THEY SHOULD.

VAL>> MATT JONES, REPORTER WITH L.A. YOUTH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STOPPING BY.

MATT JONES>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> SO WHAT DO YOU THINK? DO YOU THINK IT STARTS IN THE FAMILY? DO YOU THINK SCHOOLS SHOULD IMPLEMENT CERTAIN POLICIES? DO YOU THINK THEY'D BE EFFECTIVE? WE'D LOVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS OR ANYTHING ELSE WE REPORT HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT. HERE'S HOW YOU CAN REACH US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

JESS>> PATT MORRISON SINGLES OUT SOME TV EXECUTIVES SHE'D LIKE TO SEND TO THE MOON, IN TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> AS P.T. BARNUM SAID, "THIS WAY TO THE EGRESS". AS BARNUM ALSO SAID, "NO ONE EVER WENT BROKE UNDERESTIMATING THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC". THE MONEY-MAKER IN THIS CASE IS A FOX TV PROGRAM CALLED "CONSPIRACY THEORY: DID WE LAND ON THE MOON?" NOW I KNOW TV IS DESPERATE FOR REALITY-BASED PROGRAMS, BUT, LIKE MANY CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THIS HARDLY QUALIFIES AS REALITY-BASED. AN INFOMERCIAL WOULD HAVE HAD MORE LOGIC AND COMMON SENSE.

IT BEGAN WITH AN OMINOUS DISCLAIMER USING POMPOSITY TO SELL ITS STUPIDITY: "THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM DEALS WITH A CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT. THE THEORIES EXPRESSED ARE NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION". NOW THIS PROGRAM ARGUED THAT THE MOON LANDINGS, ALL OF THEM, I SUPPOSE, WERE FAKED ON A MOVIE SET. THE FAKE MOON CONSPIRACY GOT STARTED BECAUSE OF A MOVIE SUGGESTING THAT IT WAS. PERHAPS THE FILM OUGHT TO BE SHOWN AS A DOUBLE FEATURE WITH THAT OTHER DOCUMENTARY, "FORREST GUMP".

NOW THE SHOW RAISED SEVERAL POINTS TO PROVE ITS THESIS, ALL OF THEM SOUNDLY DISPROVED BY SCIENCE AS ANALYZED BY THE TRAINED PROFESSIONAL SCIENTISTS AT THE SKEPTIC SOCIETY IN ALTADENA. MY FAVORITE WAS THAT NASA MURDERED ASTRONAUTS GRISSOM, WHITE AND CHAFEE IN A CAPSULE FIRE IN 1967 BECAUSE THEY WERE ABOUT TO SPILL THE BEANS THAT THE WHOLE MOON PROGRAM WAS A HOAX.

NOT ONLY IS THIS MARVELOUS BECAUSE THE MOON LANDING WAS STILL TWO AND A HALF YEARS AWAY, BUT IT HAS ALL THE HALLMARKS OF CONSPIRACY THINKING, EMBRACING TWO OPPOSITE IDEAS AT THE SAME TIME. THAT THE AGENCY IN QUESTION IS TOO STUPID AND INCOMPETENT TO GET A MAN TO THE MOON, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS SO SINISTER AND CLEVER THAT IT COULD KEEP HUNDREDS OF NASA EMPLOYEES FROM UTTERING A PEEP ABOUT THE CONSPIRACY.

TO QUOTE GORDON LIDDY, THE MASTER CONSPIRATOR, "THREE PEOPLE CAN KEEP A SECRET AS LONG AS TWO OF THEM ARE DEAD." MAYBE THAT'S WHY THERE'S ONE LETTER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MOON AND MORON.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS, SURE, THEY CAN FLY, BUT WHAT ELSE ARE AIRPLANES GOOD FOR? WELL, TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA PHOTOGRAPHER, BOB SEIDEMANN, AIRPLANES ARE ART.

JESS>> SEIDEMANN STARTED HIS CURRENT PROJECT IN THE 80'S, SHOOTING THE WIDE VARIETY OF OLDER PLANES STORED IN THE CALIFORNIA DESERT. THEN HE ADDED AIRCRAFT IN FLIGHT -- NOT THIS ONE, BUT OTHERS -- AND PORTRAITS OF DESIGNERS AND PILOTS FROM AROUND THE WORLD. SEIDEMANN SHOT MORE THAN 300 PHOTOGRAPHS IN THE PAST 15 YEARS. THE PROJECT NOW SERVES AS A RECORD OF 20TH CENTURY AVIATION.

VAL>> AND JOINING US NOW IS PHOTOGRAPHER, BOB SEIDEMANN. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JESS>> YOUR INFATUATION WITH AIRPLANES, WHEN DID IT BEGIN?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> AS A TEENAGER, ACTUALLY. I JUST ENJOYED SEEING AIRPLANES LANDING AT AIRPORTS. I LIVED IN NEW YORK CITY NEAR LA GUARDIA AIRPORT AND I USED TO MARVEL AS THEY WENT BY, SO IT WAS A TEENAGE -- IT GOES BACK TO MY YOUTH.

JESS>> AND WHAT A STUDIO YOU HAD WITH ALL THE PLANES THAT WERE STORED IN THE DESERT.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THAT WAS A WONDERFUL PLACE TO WORK.

VAL>> WHERE DID YOU FIRST COME ACROSS THEM? HOW DID YOU DISCOVER THEM?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> A MAN AT "PLANES OF FAME" OUT IN CHINO GAVE ME A TIP AND SAID THAT THERE WERE SOME WRECKS IN THE DESERT AND THAT, IF I COULD ONLY GET THE NAVY TO LET ME OUT THERE, I WOULD HAVE SOME GREAT PHOTO OPPORTUNITIES.

VAL>> SO YOU HAD TO GET PERMISSION FROM THE NAVY?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> ABSOLUTELY.

VAL>> LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOU PRODUCED FROM THAT TRIP.

JESS>> NOW THIS ONE WAS HARDLY STORED IN THE DESERT. THIS ONE LANDED IN THE DESERT.

VAL>> DETERIORATED IN THE DESERT (LAUGHTER).

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS CHINA LAKE NAVAL WEAPONS CENTER. THIS IS A HULK THAT SITS OUT THERE AND THEY USE IT FOR TARGET PRACTICE. THEY DON'T SHOOT AT IT. THEY SIGHT ON IT.

VAL>> OH, REALLY. BOY.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE. IT'S ANOTHER HULK USED FOR THE SAME REASON.

VAL>> WERE THEY JUST LETTING THEM DETERIORATE?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THEY JUST SIT OUT THERE AND COOK.

THIS IS THE FLIGHT ENGINEER'S STATION OF A B29 OUT NEAR DEATH VALLEY.

VAL>> ARE THEY STILL LIKE THIS TODAY IF WE WERE TO GO OUT THERE?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> YES.

JESS>> THE DESERT ENVIRONMENT REALLY PRESERVES THEM.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> EXACTLY. IT'S VERY DRY.

JESS>> THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SHOT.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS THE NAVY'S "BLUE ANGELS". THAT'S FOUR AIRPLANES IN A ROW AND, BECAUSE IT'S A VERY LONG TELEPHOTO LENS, IT COLLAPSES THE APPEARANCE AND GIVES IT THAT LOOK. THAT'S FOUR AIRPLANES.

JESS>> EVEN THOUGH THEY DO FLY IN PRETTY TIGHT SYNCHRONIZATION.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THEY'RE FLYING VERY CLOSE.

THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER "NIMITZ". THAT'S A --

VAL>> -- WHAT'S THAT BEAUTIFUL -- LOOKS LIKE A METEORITE OR A COMET?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THAT'S AN AIRPLANE BLASTING OFF THE DECK.

THIS IS THE UNDERSIDE OF A 747.

VAL>> NOW HOW MANY PHOTOGRAPHS DO YOU HAVE TO TAKE? WHAT'S THE RATIO WHEN YOU --

BOB SEIDEMANN>> -- I SHOT THOUSANDS.

THIS PARTICULAR PICTURE -- THIS IS THE B2 AND THIS PICTURE IS MORE ABOUT NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE SPACE THAN IT IS ABOUT AIRPLANES. IT'S JUST A VERY INTERESTING SHAPE AND I FIND IT QUITE APPEALING.

JESS>> THIS PHOTOGRAPH ALONE SUPPORTS YOUR NOTION OF PHOTOGRAPHY AS ART.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WE'RE LOOKING DOWN ON THE NOSE OF A VERY BIG AIRPLANE. IT'S A KC130, AN AIR FORCE AIRPLANE.

VAL>> HOW DID YOU GET THAT?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> I'M SITTING WITH THE REFUELING PERSON WHO'S GUIDING THE BOOM INTO THE FUEL TANK OF THE AIRPLANE.

VAL>> WOW.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS THE FACTORY AT BOEING WHERE THEY BUILD 747'S AND THE BOEING AIRPLANE COMPANY WAS EXTRAORDINARILY GENEROUS. THEY GAVE ME COMPLETE ACCESS TO ALL OF THEIR PERSONNEL IN EVERY PART OF THEIR FACTORY. I'VE DOCUMENTED VIRTUALLY ALL OF THEIR ENGINEERS AND BOEING --

VAL>> -- THERE WEREN'T SECURITY CONCERNS?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> NOT AT ALL. IT WAS ALL CIVILIAN STUFF.

I'M RIDING NEXT TO A CANADIAN PILOT. THIS IS THE CANADIAN DEMONSTRATION TEAM CALLED THE "SNOWBIRDS".

VAL>> OH, I SEE.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THAT'S MT. SHASTA.

JESS>> AS SEEN THROUGH THE COCKPIT.

VAL>> GOT IT.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS A REFUELING MISSION. THIS IS THE AIR FORCE. I'M SITTING BETWEEN THE TWO PILOTS AND THE AIRPLANE IN THE WINDOW, WHICH IS ONLY ABOUT 15 FEET AWAY, IS REFUELING THE AIRPLANE THAT I AM RIDING IN.

JESS>> ALL OF THESE ARE IN BLACK AND WHITE?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THEY'RE ALL BLACK AND WHITE. BLACK AND WHITE IS --

THIS IS A COCKPIT PICTURE I REALLY LOVE. THIS IS ANOTHER BOEING AIRPLANE WHICH WAS BUILT AFTER THE B29. THEY DON'T MAKE THEM LIKE THAT ANYMORE.

JESS>> THANK GOODNESS (LAUGHTER).

BOB SEIDEMANN>> (LAUGHTER) THIS IS ACTUALLY A FEMALE PILOT. SHE'S DRIVING A C130 TO THE MARIANNA ISLANDS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC AND THE MISSION IS TO DROP CHRISTMAS PRESENTS TO KIDS ON THE ISLANDS. THEY DO THAT EVERY YEAR.

JESS>> THAT'S GREAT.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS ARTHUR RAYMOND, THE MAN THAT DESIGNED THE DC3 AND MANY, MANY AIRPLANES FOR DOUGLAS.

THIS IS MAYNARD PINNELL, THE MAN THAT DESIGNED THE FIRST -- CHIEF ENGINEER, THAT IS -- THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL JET TRANSPORT, THE 707.

VAL>> NOW WHY DID YOU DECIDE THAT THE DESIGNERS OF THE AIRPLANES WERE AS IMPORTANT AS THE AIRPLANES?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> I THOUGHT THAT, IF THE AIRPLANES WERE ART, THEN THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE THEM ARE ARTISTS, AND I BEGAN PURSUING THE CREATORS.

JESS>> PARTICULARLY THE DESIGNERS.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> EXACTLY, DESIGNERS IN PARTICULAR.

THIS IS JOE SUTTER, THE MAN THAT WAS THE CHIEF ENGINEER ON THE 747. HE'S KNOWN AS "THE FATHER OF....", WHICH MEANS HE WAS A SINGLE-MINDED INDIVIDUAL THAT PRESSED FOR ONE AIRPLANE TO BE CONSTRUCTED.

THIS IS ALAN MORALLI, THE DESIGNER OF THE NEWEST BOEING AIRPLANE, THE 777. WHEN I MADE THAT PICTURE, IT ONLY EXISTED AS A MODEL.

THIS IS TEX JOHNSON, A VERY FAMOUS TEST PILOT AND THE TEST PILOT THAT FLEW THE FIRST 707 JET TRANSPORT.

THIS IS MOSCOW. THIS IS GENRICH NOVAZELOV, THE GENERAL DESIGNER OF THE ALEUTIAN DESIGN BUREAU, WHICH IS THE RUSSIAN EQUIVALENT TO BOEING, NOT SO MUCH IN QUALITY, BUT IN SCALE. THEY ARE HUGE COMPANIES THAT MAKE TRANSPORTS.

VAL>> SO YOU TRAVELED TO THE THEN SOVIET UNION TO GET THIS?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THIS IS MOSCOW, RIGHT. THEN, IT WAS THE SOVIET UNION.

THIS IS ONE OF RUSSIA'S GREAT, GREAT FIGHTER PLANE DESIGNERS. SEMINOV IS HIS NAME AND THAT AIRPLANE IS THE SU21, I BELIEVE. IT'S A VERY, VERY FORMIDABLE MACHINE.

JESS>> THIS WAS DURING THE COLD WAR?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THE COLD WAR WAS JUST ENDING. THIS WAS 1990.

JESS>> THEY WERE MORE COOPERATIVE?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THEY WERE VERY COOPERATIVE. THEY WERE VERY, VERY COOPERATIVE. THESE ARE THREE VERY IMPORTANT MEN AT THE ALEUTIAN DESIGN BUREAU WHO WORKED ON AN AIRPLANE DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR THAT HELPED DEFEAT THE NAZIS AT THE BATTLE OF STALINGRAD. THEY'RE ALL VERY IMPORTANT HEROES. WHEN THIS PICTURE WAS MADE, THEY WERE ALL IN THEIR MIDDLE 80'S.

VAL>> THESE ARE REALLY HISTORICAL PHOTOGRAPHS.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THESE PEOPLE ARE VERY IMPORTANT, I BELIEVE, IN HISTORY. THEY'VE CHANGED THE FACE OF THE MAP AND THEY'VE CHANGED THE DIRECTION OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION, AND THEY GET YOU TO NEW YORK IN FIVE AND A HALF HOURS.

VAL>> THAT'S A WONDERFUL --

BOB SEIDEMANN>> -- THIS IS WALTER SPIVACK, A VERY, VERY FINE ENGINEER WHO WAS THE CHIEF ON THE B1 AND WAS CHIEF ON THE XB70, ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL MACHINES EVER MADE. IT WAS CALLED THE "VALKYRIE". HE ALSO WORKED ON THE FUEL TANKS WITH JIMMY DOOLITTLE FOR THE "DOOLITTLE RAGE", SECOND WORLD WAR.

JESS>> AND FINALLY?

VAL>> OF COURSE, WE CAN'T --

BOB SEIDEMANN>> -- THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT FELLOW. HE'S A DESIGNER WHO DESIGNS SOLAR POWERED AIRPLANES AND HUMAN POWERED AIRPLANES. IT'S DR. PAUL MCCREEDY. WHAT YOU SEE HIM PICTURED WITH IS THE HEAD OF A PTERODACTYL. HE BUILT A FULL-SCALE FLYING REPTILE TO SHOW THAT IT ACTUALLY WORKED AND FLEW.

VAL>> OH, FANTASTIC.

JESS>> ARTISTS HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR, AS WELL (LAUGHTER).

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THAT'S RIGHT. THEY DO.

JESS>> NOW YOU HAD A GREAT COLLECTION. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE COLLECTION NOW?

BOB SEIDEMANN>> WELL, A SET WAS SOLD TO SOTHEBY'S FOR A STUNNING AMOUNT OF MONEY IN OCTOBER AND I'M HOPING THERE ARE NINE MORE PORTFOLIOS. ONE INTERESTING FACT ABOUT THESE PORTFOLIOS, ALMOST ALL OF THESE ENGINEERS HAVE SIGNED PRINTS WHICH MAKES IT VERY, VERY UNUSUAL IN PHOTOGRAPHY. IT'S CALLED DOUBLE SIGN PRINTS. I'M HOPING THAT SOMEONE WILL BUY THE OTHER PRINTS AND DONATE THEM TO INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTE, AND SOTHEBY'S IS THE PLACE THEY CAN CONTACT IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO PURCHASE THE PORTFOLIOS.

VAL>> FANTASTIC. SO WE SHOULD MENTION THAT A LABOR OF LOVE OF OVER 14 YEARS TURNED INTO ALMOST $210,000. CONGRATULATIONS.

BOB SEIDEMANN>> THAT'S CORRECT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VAL>> AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A GOOD EVENING.

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