3/28/01

LC010328

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> YOU'RE GOING TO START HEARING A LOT ABOUT THE NEW TEST KIDS HAVE TO PASS BEFORE GETTING A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.

LEAH SANDERS>> ALREADY, TOO FEW CALIFORNIA HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS MAKE IT TO GRADUATION DAY, BUT NOW IT'S GOING TO BE EVEN TOUGHER TO GRADUATE.

ETHAN HUTT>> IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A BAD THING FOR THE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE AN INSURANCE THAT HE KNOWS THAT, WHEN HE LEFT HIGH SCHOOL, HE KNEW SOMETHING.

VAL>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, WE'LL TALK WITH A YOUNG AFRICAN-AMERICAN WRITER ABOUT GROWING UP WITH NO FATHER.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> YOU KNOW, THE KIDS WERE VERY, VERY NEEDING AND WE TENDED TO MODEL OURSELVES AND REALLY IDOLIZE THE YOUNG HUSTLERS, THE PIMPS, THE YOUNG GANGBANGERS, THE GUYS WHO HAD THE PRETTY WOMEN AND THE FAST CARS AND THE POCKETS FULL OF MONEY BECAUSE THAT WAS EXCITING AND ACCESSIBLE TO US AT THE TIME.

JESS>> AND WE'LL RELIVE HISTORY WITH A DRIVE THROUGH CALIFORNIA'S HIGH COUNTRY. THE RIDGE ROUTE HIGHWAY COILS ITS WAY THROUGH THE TEHACHAPIS, BUT IN 1915, IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO CROSS THE GRAPEVINE. WE LOOK AT THE ROAD CRITICS SAID COULDN'T BE BUILT.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW. OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, EXIT EXAMS. THEY ARE A NEW BENCHMARK FOR CALIFORNIA SCHOOLS, A TEST EVERY STUDENT IN THE STATE HAS TO PASS TO GET A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA.

VAL>> THIS YEAR'S HIGH SCHOOL FRESHMEN ARE THE FIRST TO TAKE THE TEST. AS LEAH SANDERS REPORTS, THERE IS ONE QUESTION NO ONE CAN ANSWER. WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO PASS?

LEAH>> ALREADY, TOO FEW CALIFORNIA HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS MAKE IT TO GRADUATION DAY, BUT NOW IT'S GOING TO BE EVEN TOUGHER TO GRADUATE. STARTING WITH THE CLASS OF 2004, THAT'S THE CURRENT NINTH GRADE, STUDENTS WILL HAVE TO DO MORE THAN MERELY MEET THE COURSE REQUIREMENTS FOR GRADUATION. THEY WILL ALSO HAVE TO PASS A SPECIAL EXIT EXAM THAT FOCUSES ON TWO AREAS: ENGLISH AND MATH.

>> IF THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BOXES, THEN GO AS FAR AS YOU CAN WITH YOUR NAME. DON'T FORGET TO BUBBLE THEM IN.

LEAH>> EARLIER THIS MONTH, NINTH GRADERS ACROSS THE STATE FOUND OUT FIRSTHAND WHAT THE NEW EXIT EXAMS ARE ALL ABOUT IN TWO DAYS OF TESTING. THESE VERDUGO HILLS HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IN TUJUNGA ARE ABOUT TO START THE MATH EXAM. THEY TOOK THE ENGLISH TEST A WEEK EARLIER.

STUDENT>> LIKE THE ENGLISH? IT WAS SORT OF BORING BECAUSE YOU HAD TO READ EVERY OTHER PAGE AND IT WAS JUST A REALLY LONG TEST AND IT WAS REALLY NERVE-WRACKING.

STUDENT>> BUT IT WAS OKAY. IT WASN'T THAT HARD AND IT WASN'T THAT EASY.

STUDENT>> I THINK THAT THEY SHOULD GIVE US, LIKE, STUDY GUIDES. EVEN THOUGH IT WAS PRETTY EASY, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF WE GOT SOMETHING TO BASE IT ON.

LEAH>> IT WILL BE WEEKS BEFORE THESE KIDS KNOW HOW THEY DID. IN FACT, THE STATE HAS YET TO DECIDE THE PASSING GRADE. AND THOSE WHO DON'T PASS WILL HAVE SEVERAL CHANCES TO TAKE THE TEST EACH YEAR STARTING NEXT YEAR. SANTA MONICA HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH TEACHER, CAROL JAGO, IS A MEMBER OF AN EXAM ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

CAROL JAGO>> I DON'T THINK MOST STUDENTS AND FAMILIES ARE AWARE OF WHAT THIS TEST ULTIMATELY WILL MEAN. I THINK, IN FACT, IT'S GOING TO TAKE SEVERAL YEARS. TEENAGERS, JUST BY THEIR NATURE, HAVE A BANANA IN THEIR EAR AND THEY'RE USED TO ADULTS THREATENING THEM WITH THINGS THAT WE DON'T CARRY THROUGH. WE GIVE THEM ENDLESS CHANCES. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE MANY CHANCES TO PASS THIS EXIT EXAM, BUT NOT ENDLESS.

LEAH>> BESIDES TEACHING ENGLISH, JAGO WORKS WITH THE YEARBOOK STAFF. THESE TENTH, ELEVENTH AND TWELFTH GRADE STUDENTS WON'T EVER HAVE TO TAKE THE EXIT EXAMS, BUT MANY OF THEM THINK THE IDEA IS GOOD. YALE-BOUND, ETHAN HUTT, IS A SENIOR.

ETHAN HUTT>> IT SHOULDN'T BE AND I THINK IT'S BECOME SORT OF JUST, WELL, YOU'VE BEEN IN SCHOOL FOR FOUR YEARS, NOW IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON, SO HERE'S YOUR HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. IF YOU HAVE A TEST, THEN YOU'RE ENSURING THAT PEOPLE KNOW SOMETHING WHEN THEY LEAVE HIGH SCHOOL. I DON'T THINK THAT'S A BAD THING FOR THE SCHOOLS, I DON'T THINK IT'S A BAD THING FOR SOCIETY AND IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A BAD THING FOR THE INDIVIDUAL TO HAVE AN INSURANCE THAT HE KNOWS THAT, WHEN HE LEFT HIGH SCHOOL, HE KNEW SOMETHING.

LEAH>> JAGO DEFENDS THE ENGLISH PART OF THE TEST AS FAIR.

CAROL JAGO>> I THINK THIS TEST COMES VERY CLOSE TO MEASURING WHAT WE WOULD EXPECT STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO DO WHEN THEY GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

LEAH>> BUT OTHERS SEE PROBLEMS. PAM METZ IS AN ASSISTANT PRINCIPAL AT UNIVERSITY HIGH IN WEST LOS ANGELES. SHE WORRIES ABOUT THE FAIRNESS OF INCLUDING ALGEBRA IN THE MATH SECTION OF THE EXAM. ONLY RECENTLY HAS EVERY STUDENT BEEN EXPECTED TO STUDY ALGEBRA. NO ONE KNEW THAT CURRENT NINTH GRADERS WOULD HAVE TO TAKE EXIT EXAMS UNTIL TWO YEARS AGO WHEN THEY WERE IN SEVENTH GRADE.

PAM METZ>> THE GROUNDWORK FOR THESE STUDENTS TO MASTER ALGEBRA REALLY HAD TO START BEFORE SEVENTH GRADE. WHAT WE WOULD LIKE IS TO HAVE KNOWN WHEN THESE KIDS WERE IN THIRD OR FOURTH GRADE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT BY THE TIME EVERY ONE OF THEM GRADUATES FROM HIGH SCHOOL, THEY NEED TO HAVE MASTERED ALGEBRA BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY'RE GOING TO PASS THIS EXIT EXAM AND GET A DIPLOMA.

LEAH>> METZ ALSO WORRIES ABOUT THE TEST ITSELF.

PAM METZ>> I HAVE A CONCERN THAT A STUDENT WHO CAN DO SATISFACTORY WORK AND EARN B'S AND C'S IN THEIR CLASSES, HAVE GOOD ATTENDANCE, SHOW MASTERY OF MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF THINGS, YET CAN'T PASS THE EXIT EXAM, I HAVE A CONCERN THAT THIS EXAM, THIS ONE LITTLE PIECE, DOESN'T REALLY REFLECT A LOT OF THE LEARNING THAT GOES ON.

LEAH>> LOS ANGELES UNIFIED SCHOOL BOARD PRESIDENT, GENETHIA HAYES, SUPPORTS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR STUDENTS, BUT SAYS IT HAS TO COME WITH STRONG TEACHING.

GENETHIA HAYES>> MY REAL CONCERN ABOUT AN EXIT EXAM, THESE HIGH-STAKES EXAMS, THE THING THAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT I ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY IN OUR FACULTY TO PREPARE YOUNGSTERS FOR THE HIGH-STAKES EXIT EXAM.

LEAH>> ONE ORGANIZATION THAT'S MONITORING HOW THE EXIT EXAMS WORK HERE IS MALDEF, THE MEXICAN-AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND. NATIONAL SENIOR COUNSEL, THOMAS SAENZ, SAYS MALDEF HAS ALREADY STUDIED OTHER STATES USING EXIT EXAMS.

THOMAS SAENZ>> THOSE EXPERIENCES SHOWED THAT GENERALLY THERE HAS BEEN A DRAMATIC DISCRIMINATORY EFFECT IN THESE EXAMS, SO THAT THE PASSAGE RATES DIFFER DEPENDING UPON WHAT RACE YOU WERE, DEPENDING UPON WHAT KIND OF A SCHOOL YOU WERE IN. THERE WERE SERIOUS FAIRNESS QUESTIONS ABOUT GRADUATION EXAMS IN GENERAL.

LEAH>> IN ADDITION TO ISSUES OF FAIRNESS, SAENZ FEARS THAT IF STUDENTS WHO WOULD OTHERWISE GRADUATE HAVE TROUBLE PASSING THE TEST, THEY MIGHT GIVE UP AND DROP OUT. BUT HE DOES SEE THE POSSIBILITY THAT, IF THE EXAMS DRAW ATTENTION TO INEQUITIES IN THE SYSTEM, THERE MAY BE A BENEFIT. AT SANTA MONICA HIGH, CAROL JAGO HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED HER VIEW OF THE EXAMS. AT FIRST, SHE OPPOSED THEM, THINKING STUDENTS MAY HAVE MISSED MATERIAL THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. THEN SHE HAD A CLASS OF INDIFFERENT STUDENTS.

CAROL JAGO>> WHAT CONVINCED ME MORE THAN ANYTHING THAT THIS, IN THE LONG RUN, AN EXIT EXAM WOULD BE GOOD FOR STUDENTS IS A GROUP OF STUDENTS THAT I TAUGHT LAST YEAR, SENIORS, AFTER LUNCH. THESE STUDENTS, I WOULD GUESS ABOUT A QUARTER OF THEM PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE PASSED AN EXIT EXAM IF THEY HAD HAD TO SIT FOR IT, AND THESE STUDENTS DIDN'T GIVE ME MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES OF WORK IN A 55-MINUTE PERIOD. I THINK THAT, HAD THEY HAD SOMETHING THAT THEY HAD TO DEMONSTRATE, THEY MIGHT HAVE ATTENDED BETTER. AND MY FEELING NOW IS THAT THIS EXIT EXAM WILL BOTH FOCUS INSTRUCTION AND FOCUS STUDENTS ON LEARNING.

JESS>> LEAH, WITH THE EXAM FOCUSING ON ENGLISH AND MATH, WHAT ABOUT THE STUDENT FOR WHOM ENGLISH IS A SECOND LANGUAGE?

LEAH>> YEAH, THAT'S BEEN A BIG CONCERN AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY'RE SAYING IS, LET'S SAY ENGLISH IS NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE, YOU'RE NOT QUITE SUFFICIENT IN ENGLISH ENOUGH TO TAKE THE TEST. THE STUDENT WILL BE ABLE TO GET A 24-MONTH DEFERMENT, BUT THEY WILL HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST. EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST REGARDLESS OF THEIR, YOU KNOW, ENGLISH-SPEAKING BACKGROUND. EVEN SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENTS, STUDENTS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS, WILL HAVE TO TAKE THE TEST. YOU MUST PASS IT BY TWELFTH GRADE.

VAL>> AND IF NOT, NO HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA. HOW MANY TIMES CAN THEY TAKE IT? IS IT A PARTICULAR NUMBER?

LEAH>> I BELIEVE RIGHT NOW THE TEST IS BEING OFFERED THREE TIMES, BUT I'M SURE, WITH THE HISTORY OF THE WAY THE EXIT EXAMS HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED, IT KEEPS CHANGING. BUT RIGHT NOW, IT'S THREE TIMES --

VAL>> -- A YEAR?

LEAH>> A YEAR, BETWEEN NINTH GRADE AND TWELFTH GRADE, SO THEY'LL HAVE A NUMBER OF OPPORTUNITIES. THEN, FOR EXAMPLE, YOUR SENIOR YEAR, IF YOU DON'T PASS IT, YOU WILL AT LEAST HAVE THAT SUMMER TO TAKE IT AGAIN AND, YOU KNOW, TRY TO GET THE ASSISTANCE THAT YOU NEED TO WORK ON THE AREAS THAT YOU'RE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH.

JESS>> BUT IT'S YET TO BE DETERMINED WHAT A PASSING GRADE IS?

LEAH>> YEAH, THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION AND THAT'S BOTHERING A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THE PARENTS AND STUDENTS. THEY'RE SAYING AT THE VERY LATEST, PARENTS AND STUDENTS WILL FIND OUT THIS AUGUST FOR THE GROUP THAT JUST TOOK THE TEST, YOU KNOW, HOW THEY DID. BUT NOT UNTIL JUNE WILL THEY REALLY KNOW HOW THEY'RE GOING TO GRADE IT, YOU KNOW. IT'S PRETTY MUCH UP IN THE AIR RIGHT NOW.

VAL>> WOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE'LL BE WATCHING THAT ONE.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, THAT SPRAWLING SUBURB OVER THE HILL WILL HAVE A LOT TO SAY AS TO WHO WILL BE THE NEXT MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES.

>> THE VALLEY IS JUST ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL TO STEVE SOBOROFF, JIM HAHN AND JOEL WACHS AND, TO SOME EXTENT, ALL OF THEM. I THINK THE ONE, THOUGH, THAT NEEDS THE VALLEY VOTE TO COME THROUGH THE MOST IS WACHS AND THAT'S WHERE HE'S SPENDING ALL OF HIS TIME AND MOST OF HIS MONEY.

VAL>> THE POLITICAL CLOUT OF THE SAN FERNANDO VALLEY. THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00 P.M. RIGHT HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, "RAISING FENCES". THE PHRASE REFERS TO THE WHITE PICKET FENCE AROUND THE PROVERBIAL AMERICAN DREAM HOUSE AND IT'S THE TITLE LOCAL WRITER, MICHAEL DATCHER, CHOSE FOR HIS MEMOIR.

VAL>> DATCHER WRITES ABOUT GROWING UP AS A FATHERLESS CHILD IN L.A.'S INNER CITY AND HIS STRUGGLE TO OVERCOME THE LACK OF STRONG MALE ROLE MODELS. I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH MICHAEL DATCHER ABOUT HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY, "RAISING FENCES".

MICHAEL DATCHER, POET, WRITER, ESSAYIST, JOURNALIST, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

VAL>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK, A VERY REVEALING AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL BOOK, CALLED "RAISING FENCES". JUST AS A STARTING POINT, WHAT DOES THAT TITLE MEAN? WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> IT'S A REFERENCE TO THE PICKET FENCE DREAM. MANY AMERICANS DESIRE A NICE PLACE TO LIVE, A SPOUSE, COUPLE OF KIDS, TWO-CAR GARAGE AND A PIECE OF THE ROCK, ESSENTIALLY. BUT IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN NEIGHBORHOODS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT PICKET FENCE DREAM REALLY WASN'T ACCESSIBLE TO US FOR VARIOUS REASONS AND THIS IS A REFERENCE TO RAISING FENCES, YOU KNOW, RAISING THAT TYPE OF DREAM. BUT ALSO, IT'S A HOMONYM FOR THE WORD "RAZING", OR "R-A-Z-I-N-G", WHICH IS TO DESTROY. SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT PICKET FENCE DREAM IS DESTROYED OR GOES OFF TRACK AND HOW DO YOU RESPOND IN THE FACE OF DIFFICULTY?

VAL>> NOW YOU KNEW EARLY ON YOU WANTED THE WHITE PICKET FENCE LIFE, BUT YOU DID NOT GROW UP IN IT AT ALL?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> RIGHT. I HAD A VERY DIFFICULT BEGINNING AS A YOUNG HUMAN BEING. I WAS ADOPTED AS AN INFANT. I THINK KIDS WHO ARE ADOPTED ARE ALMOST ALWAYS LOOKING FOR GROUNDING, FOR SOMETHING TO SETTLE THEIR SPIRITS, YOU KNOW, TO FILL THOSE PLANKS IN THE PICKET FENCE.

VAL>> AND WE SHOULD SAY THAT YOUR MOTHER GAVE YOU UP FOR ADOPTION BECAUSE SHE GOT PREGNANT AFTER BEING RAPED. THAT'S A VERY, VERY HARSH BEGINNING, GOING BACK EVEN FURTHER.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> RIGHT.

VAL>> BUT YOUR ADOPTIVE MOTHER WAS WONDERFUL? STRONG VALUE? STRONG WOMAN?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> A GREAT WOMAN. A REAL SOLDIER IN TERMS OF DEFENDING OUR FAMILY, IN TERMS OF EDUCATING US AND PLACING HOME TRAINING ON THE TABLE ALL THE TIME AND TO MAKE SURE THAT WE REALLY WERE WELL-TRAINED AND EDUCATED AS YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE HOUSEHOLD.

VAL>> AND YET YOU WERE IN A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT WAS VERY TOUGH. TELL US ABOUT THAT.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> IT'S YOUR BASIC URBAN BLACK EXPERIENCE. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE DISPOSSESSED, POOR SCHOOLS, TRYING TO MAKE A WAY OUT OF NOWHERE. AS A RESULT, PEOPLE WERE MAKING CHOICES TO, YOU KNOW, COMMIT CRIMES AND TO TRY TO FIND WAYS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES.

VAL>> SO HOW DID YOU GO FROM THAT ENVIRONMENT TO UC BERKELEY, UCLA AND NOW YOUR FIRST NOVEL AND GETTING GREAT REVIEWS? YOU'RE ACCLAIMED AS A WRITER. HOW DID THAT TRANSITION HAPPEN?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> JUST A SERIES OF JUST GOOD LUCK AND MOVES BY MY MOTHER. SHE WAS TRYING TO MOVE US ALL THE TIME OUT OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND, THROUGH A SERIES OF MOVES, WE MOVED FROM THE HARDCORE GHETTO TO A LESS HARDCORE GHETTO TO THE SEMI-GHETTO AND ON UP. SO THAT WAS ONE FACTOR, DEFINITELY. BUT ALSO JUST WORKING HARD. I WAS ALWAYS A GOOD STUDENT. I THINK MY STORY DEFINITELY IS A TESTIMONY TO THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION BECAUSE EDUCATION WILL GIVE YOU OPTIONS AND CHOICES. MANY PEOPLE IN BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS OR IMPOVERISHED NEIGHBORHOODS AROUND THE COUNTRY LACK CHOICES AND OPTIONS. WE NEED TO HAVE THOSE CHOICES AND OPTIONS, AND EDUCATION ALLOWED ME TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THOSE OPTIONS.

VAL>> NOW YOU SAID THAT, EARLY ON, DESPITE THE FACT YOU DID NOT HAVE A FATHER, YOU KNEW NEVERTHELESS THAT YOU REALLY WANTED TO BE A GOOD FATHER. WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT URGE CAME FROM?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> WELL, JUST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THINGS TEND TO WANT THEM. YOU WANT TO TRY TO GET WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE. I'M SO INTIMATELY AWARE OF WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE RAISED WITHOUT A FATHER AND ALL THE PAIN THAT'S CONNECTED WITH THAT, THAT I DON'T WANT SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS MY CHILD, MY SON OR DAUGHTER, TO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE SAME TYPE OF PAIN. OF COURSE, I WANT TO TRY TO STOP THAT CYCLE FROM GOING FORWARD.

VAL>> AND YET, AT THE TIME WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, IT WAS NATURAL. VERY FEW OF YOUR FRIENDS HAD FATHERS.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> VERY FEW. IT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING NEIGHBORHOOD. YOU KNOW, THE KIDS WERE VERY, VERY NEEDING. WE TENDED TO MODEL OURSELVES AND REALLY IDOLIZE THE YOUNG HUSTLERS, THE PIMPS, THE YOUNG GANGBANGERS, THE GUYS WHO HAD THE PRETTY WOMEN AND THE FAST CARS AND THE POCKETS FULL OF MONEY BECAUSE THAT WAS EXCITING AND ACCESSIBLE TO US AT THE TIME.

VAL>> WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO BREAK THIS OUT BECAUSE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WHITE AFFLUENT MIDDLE-CLASS OR UPPER MIDDLE-CLASS AMERICANS LOOK AT THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THEY JUST SHAKE THEIR HEADS AND THEY SAY, "YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT DOING IT TO THEM. THEY'RE DOING IT TO THEMSELVES. THEY'RE RAISING KIDS WITHOUT DADS. THE GIRLS ARE GETTING PREGNANT AT 16." YOU KNOW, THEY THROW UP THEIR HANDS, "THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN DO." WHAT CAN BE DONE? HOW DO YOU BREAK THIS?

MICHAEL DATCHER>> WELL, THAT PERSPECTIVE IS VERY, VERY SHORT-SIGHTED AND MYOPIC. I MEAN, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO TALK ABOUT BLACK FATHERLESSNESS AND BLACK ANNIHILISM WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE HISTORY OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY. I MEAN, THE RESIDUE OF NOT JUST SLAVERY, BUT THE RACISM IN THE 60'S AND THE 20'S AND THE 30'S AND THE RACISM EVIDENCED BY DRAGGING BLACK MEN THROUGH THE BACK ROADS OF TEXAS. I MEAN, RACISM IS ALIVE AND WELL, SO WE HAVE TO ALSO LOOK AT ITS IMPACT ON THE BLACK FAMILY. BUT, NEVERTHELESS, BLACK PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO GET THEIR THING TOGETHER BECAUSE IT IS OUR FAMILIES AND NO ONE IS GOING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN FOR US. BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR HISTORY HERE, WE STILL HAVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN AND THE WAY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN IS JUST THAT THERE ARE NO SHORT-TERM SOLUTIONS. IT REALLY JUST MEANS A MAN MEETING A WOMAN, COMMITTING TO HER, FALLING IN LOVE, MAKING CHILDREN, RAISING A FAMILY AND TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK, YOU KNOW?

VAL>> SO WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR VERY PERSONAL STORY? WHAT IMPRESSIONS, STEREOTYPES? DO YOU WANT TO DE-MYSTIFY --

MICHAEL DATCHER>> -- WELL, YOU RAISED THE QUESTION -- EVEN IF YOU'D ASK THE QUESTION, DO BLACK PEOPLE REALLY WANT TO HAVE FAMILIES? THAT IS TYPICAL OF HOW BLACK PEOPLE ARE PERCEIVED. YOU KNOW, BLACK PEOPLE ARE HUMAN AS WELL. IT'S THE DEMONIZING OF BLACK PEOPLE OR THE LACK OF AN HONEST REFLECTION OF WHAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE LIKE. THAT OFTENTIMES COMES ABOUT BECAUSE THERE AREN'T MANY DEEP RELATIONSHIPS AMONG BLACK AND NON-BLACK PEOPLE --

VAL>> -- THAT'S TRUE.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> -- SO MANY OF THOSE WHO ARE NOT BLACK, YOU KNOW, DRAW THEIR PERCEPTIONS FROM SNOOP DOGGY DOG AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM. SO I'D LIKE FOR PEOPLE TO READ THIS BOOK AND TAKE AWAY A GLIMPSE INSIDE -- BECAUSE IT ISN'T JUST MY STORY. IT'S A STORY OF BLACK MEN -- YOU KNOW, TAKE AWAY HOW HUMAN BLACK MEN ARE AND HOW HUMAN BLACK PEOPLE ARE. WHAT'S TRAGIC ABOUT EVEN THAT DESIRE FOR THIS BOOK IS THAT, HERE WE ARE IN THE YEAR 2001, AND WE'RE STILL TRYING TO DEFINE AND DEFEND OUR HUMANITY. IT'S RIDICULOUS.

VAL>> WELL, YOU'VE MADE A GREAT STEP FORWARD IN WRITING THE BOOK. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WILLING TO SHARE A VERY, VERY, PERSONAL STORY.

MICHAEL DATCHER>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VAL>> THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS CALLED "RAISING FENCES: A BLACK MAN'S LOVE STORY". YOU CAN HEAR MICHAEL DATCHER READ FROM IT NEXT TUESDAY AT ESO WAN BOOKS, AND WEDNESDAY AT BARNES & NOBLE IN SANTA MONICA.

ESO WAN BOOKS
TUESDAY, APRIL 3
323-294-0324

BARNES & NOBLE SANTA MONICA
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 4
310-260-9110

JESS>> HE ALSO WRITES POETRY?

VAL>> YES, HE DOES, AND PEOPLE MAY KNOW HIM FROM THE POETRY WORKSHOP IN LEIMERT PARK. BOTH HE AND HIS WIFE ARE POETS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT BLACK MEN IN AMERICA? WE'D LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU. HERE ARE THE WAYS YOU CAN REACH US:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

JESS>> IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS, INTERSTATE 5 MAKES IT EASY FOR DRIVERS TO BREEZE THROUGH THE TEHACHAPIS AT 65 MILES AN HOUR (LAUGHTER), BUT IMAGINE CROSSING THE GRAPEVINE IN THE EARLY 1900'S BEFORE THERE EVEN WAS A ROAD.

VAL>> THAT CROSSING, IN FACT, WAS SO DIFFICULT THERE WAS TALK OF USING IT AS A NATURAL DIVIDE TO SPLIT CALIFORNIA INTO TWO STATES. BUT IN 1912, WORK BEGAN ON A ROAD THAT WOULD BE KNOWN AS THE RIDGE ROUTE. IT FOLLOWED THE RIDGE LINE OF THE TEHACHAPI MOUNTAINS FROM GORMAN TO CASTAIC. THE ROUTE IS MARKED BY STRETCHES WITH NAMES LIKE DEAD MAN'S CURVE, SWEDE'S CUT AND SERPENTINE DRIVE.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS HISTORIAN, MATT ROTH, FROM THE AUTOMOBILE CLUB OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. HE HAS BROUGHT SOME FOOTAGE OF THE RIDGE ROUTE CONSTRUCTION FROM THE AUTO CLUB'S ARCHIVES.

VAL>> NOW WOULD YOU ACTUALLY RECOMMEND TAKING THIS RIDGE ROUTE TODAY?

MATT ROTH>> WELL, I HAVEN'T DONE IT. (LAUGHTER) THERE ARE STRETCHES OF THE PORTION OF THE ROAD THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE UNDER CONSTRUCTION HERE THAT ARE STILL PASSABLE.

JESS>> PEOPLE DO IT, BUT IT'S AN ADVENTURE.

MATT ROTH>> I GATHER THAT IT IS. I'VE CROSSED IT ON THE WAY TO THE CASTAIC POWER PLANT. IT'S NARROW AND IT'S NOT KEPT UP, SO I GUESS YOU CAN.

VAL>> FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE NECESSARY?

MATT ROTH>> I WOULD SAY.

VAL>> BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT EXISTED WHEN IT FIRST STARTED, SO LET'S SEE WHAT KIND OF FOOTAGE YOU'VE BROUGHT AND YOU CAN TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT.

MATT ROTH>> I SURE WILL. WELL, THIS IS THE LITTLE PROMO.

VAL>> (LAUGHTER)

MATT ROTH>> THE AUTO CLUB DID NOT BUILD THE ROAD, BUT WAS INVOLVED IN TRYING TO GET IT BUILT. THIS IS ACTUALLY -- WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE HERE IS FOOTAGE FROM 1929 TO 1934 AND IT WAS THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE SO-CALLED SECOND RIDGE ROUTE, OR THE RIDGE ROUTE ALTERNATE. THAT ROAD THAT YOU MENTIONED IN THE INTRO FROM 1912 FOLLOWED THE RIDGE LINES AND IT WAS VERY SERPENTINE. IT WENT UP AND DOWN VERY PRECIPITOUSLY. IT WAS NARROW. IT WAS DANGEROUS. SO WITH THE URGING OF ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE AUTO CLUB AND THE L.A. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND THE STATE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, THIS BECAME A PRIORITY FOR THE STATE DIVISION OF HIGHWAYS.

VAL>> AND IT WAS, I JUST ASSUME, ECONOMICALLY IMPERATIVE TO LINK THE BASIN, OR LOS ANGELES, TO THE HIGH DESERT, YES? IS THAT RIGHT?

MATT ROTH>> WELL, IN THE CENTRAL VALLEY AND THEN ACTUALLY INTO SAN FRANCISCO. WELL, IT CERTAINLY BECAME IMPORTANT FOR THE STATE'S ECONOMY AND CERTAINLY TO KEEP THE ECONOMY MOVING IS ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS.

JESS>> THAT WAS THE HEIGHT OF THE DEPRESSION, TOO, WHEN THIS WAS BEING BUILT?

MATT ROTH>> IT GOT AUTHORIZED JUST BEFORE THE DEPRESSION. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> OH, REALLY?

MATT ROTH>> JUST BEFORE.

VAL>> OH, THEY SNEAKED IN UNDER THE WIRE. THEY HAD MULES WORKING RIGHT NEXT TO RELATIVELY MODERN --

MATT ROTH>> -- YEAH, THEY'RE SCRAPING. THEY'RE PUTTING THE DRAINS IN NOW UNDER THE EXPANSION JOINTS. THAT WAS REAL KEY. THAT WAS WHY SOME OF THESE EARLY ROADS BROKE DOWN. IT'S BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE PROPER DRAINAGE.

VAL>> OH, NO KIDDING.

MATT ROTH>> IN FACT, WHEN THE STATE FIRST GOT A GAS TAX IN 1924, THE LANGUAGE SAID THAT IT WAS TO BE USED FOR THE RECONSTRUCTION OF ROADS AND THEY ACTUALLY HAD TO CHANGE THE LAW IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO BUILD NEW ROADS WITH THAT MONEY. SO THIS WAS TECHNICALLY AND LEGALLY A RECONSTRUCTION PROJECT.

JESS>> REMARKABLY, THIS LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE THE KIND OF CONSTRUCTION WE SEE TODAY, THE REBAR, THE --

MATT ROTH>> -- IT WAS THE START OF IT. ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF THE FIRST ROADS THAT WERE BUILT BY THE STATE BETWEEN 1910 AND THIS TIME WAS THAT THEY WERE UN-REINFORCED CONCRETE. THE FIRST COAST HIGHWAY NORTH OF SAN DIEGO JUST CRUMBLED IN A FEW YEARS AND THEY BUILT WHAT LATER BECAME THE PACIFIC COAST HIGHWAY JUST RIGHT ON TOP OF IT.

THE MIX OF HUMAN AND MECHANIZED OPERATIONS HERE, THAT IS ACTUALLY A DIESEL-POWERED SO-CALLED STEAM SHOVEL. THEY REALLY WERE STEAM BEFORE THIS. IN THE 1920'S, THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY STARTED PRODUCING THESE LARGE PIECES OF EQUIPMENT. WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW, THEY'RE SORTING THE DIRT, THE EARTH, SOIL AND ROCKS THAT THEY DUG UP ON THE SITE. THIS WHOLE CONCRETE MIXING PLANT WAS ASSEMBLED NEAR THE SIDE OF THE ROAD. IT WAS BOLTED TOGETHER LIKE ERECTOR SET GIRDERS.

VAL>> NOW WAS THIS CONSIDERED DANGEROUS WORK? DID ANYBODY GET INJURED OR DIE ALONG THE WAY?

MATT ROTH>> IT WAS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS WORK.

JESS>> ESPECIALLY THE BLASTING.

MATT ROTH>> THEY ACTUALLY KNEW ABOUT THAT, BUT, I MEAN, IT WAS HOT, THERE WAS THE EVER-PRESENT DANGER OF LANDSLIDES, THERE'S LOTS OF HEAVY THINGS MOVING AROUND.

JESS>> AND CAL OSHA WAS NOWHERE IN SIGHT.

MATT ROTH>> CAL OSHA, U.S. OSHA, THERE WAS NO SUCH THING.

VAL>> DIDN'T EXIST.

MATT ROTH>> ALTHOUGH YOU DO SEE -- I MEAN, THEY'RE KEEPING THE DUST DOWN WITH THE SPRAY. THAT WAS NOT SO MUCH FOR HEALTH AS FOR VISIBILITY TO HAVE THE WORK SITE --

VAL>> -- DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW IF THEY CAME IN ON SCHEDULE AND ON BUDGET OR DID THEY HAVE THE CLASSIC COST-OVER LIKE WE HAVE TODAY?

MATT ROTH>> IT WAS NOT QUITE ON SCHEDULE, BUT IT WAS VERY MUCH ON BUDGET. IT'S ABOUT 27 MILES OF ROAD AND IT COST A LITTLE UNDER $3 MILLION DOLLARS.

JESS>> TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WAS THE WPA INVOLVED IN THE CONSTRUCTION?

MATT ROTH>> I DON'T THINK SO. I'M ONLY INFERRING THAT BECAUSE OF THE EQUIPMENT. THE WPA WAS ABOUT --

JESS>> -- IT WAS ALL MANPOWER, WASN'T IT?

MATT ROTH>> IT WAS WORK RELIEF. I MEAN, I'VE SEEN PICTURES IN THE CITY ARCHIVES OF THE BUILDING OF, LIKE, THE SLAUSON STORM DRAIN WHERE THEY MOVED THE WHOLE --

JESS>> -- AND THEY DID BUILD SOME HIGHWAYS TOO.

MATT ROTH>> THEY DID, BUT IT WAS PURE BUCKET AND SHOVEL WORK.

JESS>> THIS IS PRETTY PRIMITIVE HERE.

MATT ROTH>> WELL, ACTUALLY, THEY'RE MAKING A SURFACE ON THE CONCRETE AND THAT'S WHEN THE HUMAN LABOR CAME BACK IN. THIS IS, YOU KNOW, CRAFT SKILL.

VAL>> LOOK AT THAT. SO YOU CAN STILL GO ON THIS, BUT THERE ARE PARTS OF IT THAT ARE IN PRETTY BAD SHAPE.

MATT ROTH>> THE PLACE I KNOW ABOUT IS WHEN YOU'RE GOING TO THE CASTAIC POWER PLANT, WHICH IS WELL-MARKED OFF OF THE 5. BEFORE YOU GO DOWN INTO THE GORGE WHERE THE POWER PLANT IS, YOU'LL SEE THIS VERY NARROW CONCRETE ROAD THAT CROSSES THE ACCESS ROUTE INTO THE POWER PLANT AND IT'S ACTUALLY SIGNPOSTED. IT'S SAYS "OLD RIDGE ROUTE".

VAL>> "COMPLETED" (LAUGHTER)

MATT ROTH>> YEAH.

VAL>> NOW WHEN YOU SAY CONCRETE, YOU MEAN THAT VERY DISTINCTLY FROM BLACKTOP?

MATT ROTH>> WELL, SURE. ASPHALT IS DIFFERENT. CONCRETE IS MIXING LIME AND SAND AND CEMENT TO MAKE THIS STUFF THAT HARDENS.

VAL>> AND CONCRETE DOESN'T LAST AS LONG? WHY DID WE ABANDON CONCRETE AS MATERIAL FOR ROADS?

JESS>> WE ACTUALLY USE BOTH.

MATT ROTH>> WE STILL USE IT.

VAL>> WE DO STILL USE IT?

MATT ROTH>> YEAH, WE STILL USE IT. THE ASPHALT IS MORE OF A SURFACE, FOR SURFACING, AND THE REASON WHY THE CONCRETE ON THE OLD RIDGE ROUTE, THE PORTION THAT YOU CAN STILL SEE TODAY, WHY IT'S DETERIORATING IS BECAUSE THERE'S NO MORE DRAINAGE. WATER CAN SIT ON IT AND UNDERMINE IT.

JESS>> YOU CAN GO LOOK AT IT, BUT YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO DRIVE ON IT VERY LONG.

MATT ROTH>> I'M A CITY GUY. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) VERY INTERESTING, MATT.

VAL>> MATT ROTH, THANK YOU SO MUCH, FROM THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AUTOMOBILE CLUB, I THINK I GOT THAT RIGHT. 

WE'VE GOT TO HIT THE ROAD. WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. THANKS FOR WATCHING. SEE YOU TOMORROW.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

TO REACH US AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, CALL 323-953-5555. SEND US AN E-MAIL TO LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG OR LOG ONTO OUR WEB SITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG TO SEND MESSAGES OR DOWNLOAD TRANSCRIPTS OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.