4/12/01

LC010412

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> GOING TO SCHOOL ON A BUS SEEMS LIKE A SAFE ENOUGH THING TO DO, BUT ACCORDING TO SOME OF THE KIDS WHO RIDE THOSE BUSES, THEY CAN LITERALLY TAKE YOUR BREATH AWAY.

PHILIP>> WE ALL KNOW THE YELLOW BUS, BUT WHAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW IS THE DANGER THOSE BUSES MAY CARRY, NAMELY, DIESEL EXHAUST.

SIENA LESLIE>> WELL, I ASSUME IT'S GOT TO BE BAD BECAUSE THE WAY IT SMELLS, IT'S JUST HORRIBLE.

VAL>> AND ON TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, A DISCUSSION WITH A FORMER PRIEST ABOUT THE ROOTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

JAMES CARROLL>> THIS IS THE STORY OF A LONG DARK HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN CONTEMPT FOR JEWS WHICH IS TRAGIC AND WHICH HAS HAD TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES.

JESS>> ALSO, PATT MORRISON CONFIRMS THAT L.A. IS NOT THE CITY OF BROTHERLY LOVE.

PATT>> WELCOME TO FAMILY FEUD, THE LOS ANGELES MAYOR'S RACE, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> MUCH OF THE PLANET'S LIFE DEPENDS ON WETLANDS. STILL, THEY CONTINUE TO BE DESTROYED. WELL, NOW A NEW EXHIBIT AT THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC BRINGS THE WETLANDS TO LIFE. WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT OUR REGION'S WETLANDS AND THE WILDLIFE WHO DEPEND ON THEM.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW. OUR TOP STORY TONIGHT, THERE IS A CONTROVERSY OVER SCHOOL BUSES. NOT SCHOOL BUSING AS IN THE 60'S, BUT SCHOOL BUSES AS IN DIESEL FUMES, AND THE EFFECT ON CHILDREN'S HEALTH.

VAL>> DIESEL EXHAUST IS BELIEVED TO CAUSE HEALTH PROBLEMS SUCH AS ASTHMA AND EVEN CANCER AND A NEW STUDY SHOWS THAT THE LEVEL OF DIESEL EXHAUST IS MUCH HIGHER INSIDE A SCHOOL BUS THAN OUTSIDE OF IT. AS PHILIP BRUCE REPORTS, THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS AND THE DIESEL INDUSTRY IS ON.

PHILIP>> WE ALL KNOW THE YELLOW SCHOOL BUS, BUT WHAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW IS THE DANGER THOSE BUSES MAY CARRY, NAMELY, DIESEL EXHAUST, THE KIND THAT FIFTH GRADER, SIENA LESLIE, INHALES ON HER WAY TO L.A. BRENTWOOD SCIENCE MAGNET SCHOOL.

SIENA LESLIE>> WELL, I ASSUME IT'S GOT TO BE BAD BECAUSE THE WAY IT SMELLS, IT'S JUST HORRIBLE. ALSO, MY MOM IS ALWAYS COMPLAINING OF THE DIESEL BUSES CAUSING ASTHMA AND STUFF LIKE THAT, SO I'D SAY IT'S PRETTY BAD.

PHILIP>> STATE HEALTH OFFICIALS SAY DIESEL EXHAUST IS LINKED TO CANCER AND OTHER HEALTH PROBLEMS. IN FEBRUARY, THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL, OR THE NRDC, AND THE COALITION FOR CLEAN AIR ANNOUNCED RESULTS OF A NEW STUDY. IT SHOWED THAT THE LEVELS OF DIESEL EXHAUST INSIDE A SCHOOL BUS COULD BE UP TO FOUR TIMES HIGHER THAN THE LEVELS OUTSIDE.

GAIL RUDERMAN FEUER>> WE THOUGHT THE WORST PLACE TO BE WOULD BE OUTSIDE THE BUS. WHAT WAS SURPRISING ABOUT THE STUDY IS, WE FOUND THE WORSE PLACE TO BE IS INSIDE THE BUS AND WE THINK THAT'S BECAUSE THE EXHAUST THAT'S COMING OUT OF THE BUS IS ACTUALLY COMING UNDER THE BUS AND INSIDE THE BUS. THE HIGHEST READINGS OF DIESEL EXHAUST WERE WHEN THE WINDOWS WERE CLOSED AND THOSE KIDS ARE BASICALLY COOKING INSIDE THAT BUS WITH THOSE DIESEL FUMES.

PHILIP>> THE NRDC IS LOBBYING TO HAVE DIESEL SCHOOL BUSES REPLACED BY MODELS THAT RUN ON NATURAL GAS AND THE SOUTH COAST AIR QUALITY MANAGEMENT DISTRICT APPARENTLY IS HEADED IN THE SAME DIRECTION. NEXT WEEK, THE AQMD BOARD WILL VOTE ON A RULE THAT WOULD REQUIRE SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO BUY NATURAL GAS BUSES AS THEY REPLACE THEIR OLDER FLEET.

GAIL RUDERMAN FEUER>> EVERY SINGLE BUS WE BUY NEEDS TO BE A CLEANER NON-DIESEL BUS AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE'LL GET TO ENTIRE FLEETS OF CLEAN BUSES.

PHILIP>> BUT THE PROPOSED CHANGE IS CONTROVERSIAL. THERE'S A MAJOR PUSH FOR THE AQMD TO SET SCHOOL BUS EMISSION STANDARDS, BUT NOT TO SPECIFY THE KIND OF FUEL THAT'S ALLOWED. MEANWHILE, INTERNATIONAL TRUCK WANTS TO MARKET A NEW STYLE DIESEL BUS ACROSS CALIFORNIA. THEY CALL IT GREEN DIESEL TECHNOLOGY AND SAY THE BUS IS CLEAN. IT'S BEEN APPROVED BY THE STATE AIR RESOURCES BOARD. BOB HATTOY RUNS A GROUP CALLING ITSELF THE COALITION FOR BOOKS AND BUSES. HE CLAIMS THE NRDC HASN'T DONE ITS HOMEWORK.

BOB HATTOY>> THIS TECHNOLOGY JUST WAS CERTIFIED ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO, SO I THINK WHEN THEY STARTED THEIR CRUSADE TO ELIMINATE DIESEL, THERE WERE ONLY TWO CHOICES AT THE TIME. THERE WAS DIESEL, THE FILTHY UGLY DIESEL THAT WE ALL HATE, AND NATURAL GAS. NOW WE HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE. I THINK THEY GOT A LITTLE LAZY IN NOT LOOKING AT IT.

PHILIP>> GAIL RUDERMAN FEUER ADMITS THE GREEN DIESEL BUS MAY BE BETTER THAN THE OLD DIESEL MODELS, BUT SHE SAYS IT STILL DOESN'T COMPARE WITH NATURAL GAS MODELS.

GAIL RUDERMAN FEUER>> THE PROBLEM IS, THE SIMPLE FACT IS, THEY'RE NOT AS CLEAN. IF THIS AGENCY WERE TO SET A STANDARD AND SAY SCHOOL DISTRICTS CAN ONLY BUY THE CLEANEST BUS AROUND, THE ONLY BUSES THAT WOULD QUALIFY WOULD BE THE NATURAL GAS BUSES.

PHILIP>> BUT HATTOY SAYS INTERNATIONAL SHOULD BE PRAISED FOR DEVELOPING A BETTER DIESEL BUS.

BOB HATTOY>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO GIVE THEM A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, PAT ON THE BACK AND HELP THEM OUT A LITTLE. ALSO, WHAT OTHER INCENTIVES WOULD INDUSTRY HAVE IF THEY WEREN'T GIVEN SOME, YOU KNOW, PATS ON THE BACK OCCASIONALLY WHEN THEY DO ACHIEVE BETTER AIR QUALITY AND WORK WITH THE COMMUNITY?

PHILIP>> THE LOS ANGELES BOARD OF EDUCATION HAS VOTED TO SUPPORT NATURAL GAS BUSES. ANGELO BELLOMO HEADS THE DISTRICT'S ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND SAFETY OFFICE. HE SAYS THE AQMD'S ANTI-DIESEL STANCE WILL HELP PUSH THE DEVELOPMENT OF NATURAL GAS TECHNOLOGY.

ANGELO BELLOMO>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THE DIESEL LOBBY IS VERY STRONG IN THE STATE. HOWEVER, WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT IN THE RULE IS TRYING TO MAKE AN ADVANCE IN THE TYPE OF TECHNOLOGY THAT WE'RE USING TO POWER BUSES.

PHILIP>> SOME SCHOOL DISTRICTS HAVE JOINED ANOTHER COALITION CALLED THE SOUTH COAST CLEAN AIR PARTNERSHIP. IT'S MISSION? TO FIGHT AGAINST THE AQMD RULE. THE COALITION SAYS NATURAL GAS BUSES ARE MORE EXPENSIVE, PLUS NEW FUELING STATIONS WILL ADD TO THE COST. ROCHELLE LEWIS IS THE GROUP'S DIRECTOR.

ROCHELLE LEWIS>> SCHOOL DISTRICTS WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO KEEP OLDER BUSES ON THE ROAD LONGER IF THEY ARE NOT ASSURED OF ADEQUATE FUNDING FOR INFRASTRUCTURE.

PHILIP>> THE AQMD CLAIMS DISTRICTS WON'T HAVE TO SPEND MORE FOR NATURAL GAS BUSES. THERE IS EXTRA MONEY AVAILABLE SPECIFICALLY FOR CLEAN AIR PROJECTS AND, IF NO MONEY CAN BE FOUND, THEY WON'T FORCE DISTRICTS TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES. BUT OPPONENTS DON'T BUY IT.

ROCHELLE LEWIS>> THE RULE AS WRITTEN, AS OF TODAY, ONLY GIVES A SCHOOL DISTRICT $8,000 PER BUS FOR INFRASTRUCTURE. NOW IF YOU'RE L.A. UNIFIED AND YOU'RE BUYING 100 BUSES, YOU CAN BUY SOME DECENT INFRASTRUCTURE FOR $800,000. BUT IF YOU'RE MOST EVERY OTHER SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THIS SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA, YOU'RE BUYING ONE OR TWO BUSES AND $8,000 AND $16,000 DOES NOT AN INFRASTRUCTURE BUY. IN FACT, AT MINIMUM, FOR ONE OR TWO BUSES EVEN TO BE FUELED BY NATURAL GAS, WE FOUND THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE ABOUT $43,000. THAT'S JUST FOR THE REFUELING FACILITY.

PHILIP>> WHATEVER THE DETAILS OF THE FINAL AQMD RULE, NO ONE TRULY BELIEVES THAT OLD DIESEL SCHOOL BUSES WILL BE VANISHING ANYTIME SOON. IT'LL LIKELY BE ANOTHER DECADE BEFORE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THESE BUSES WILL BE REPLACED. BACK AT BRENTWOOD SCIENCE MAGNET SCHOOL, THAT WORRIES TEACHER JUDY FOGEL. EVERY DAY THE BUSES LINE UP NEAR HER CLASSROOM.

JUDY FOGEL>> IT SMELLS LIKE WE'RE WORKING AT A GREYHOUND BUS STATION. THE FUMES COME IN. IF WE CALLED THE SCHOOL DISTRICT AND SAID A CARCINOGEN IS BUBBLING UP OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF THE YARD, THEY WOULD RUSH OVER, BUT BECAUSE IT'S COMING OUT OF BUSES, NO ONE DOES ANYTHING.

JESS>> IS IT AN EITHER-OR SITUATION? COULD THERE NOT BE A HYBRID SYSTEM WHERE DISTRICTS COULD BUY WHATEVER IS AVAILABLE AND WHATEVER THEIR BUDGETS WILL ALLOW?

PHILIP>> THERE'S NOT ONE ON THE RADAR RIGHT NOW, ALTHOUGH I CAN TELL YOU, AS FAR AS WHO'S RIGHT IN THIS ARGUMENT, BOTH SIDES ARE ARMED WITH LOTS OF DATA PROVING THAT THEY ARE RIGHT. IT'S REALLY SPLIT THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY BECAUSE -- YOU SAW BOB HATTOY. HE USED TO RUN THE SIERRA CLUB. HE'S AN ENVIRONMENTALIST WITH CREDENTIALS. BUT HE'S THE ONE WHO'S SAYING THIS CLEAN DIESEL BUS IS A BETTER ALTERNATIVE THAN THE NATURAL GAS.

VAL>> WHAT AMAZES ME, THOUGH, IS, IN THE MEANTIME, WHILE ALL OF THE BUREAUCRATS AND POLITICIANS ARE BATTLING OVER THIS, THESE KIDS ARE BEING EXPOSED TO DIESEL INSIDE -- YOU KNOW WHEN YOU SAID IT WAS FOUR TIMES HIGHER INSIDE? IS THAT ONLY UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS OR IS THAT --

PHILIP>> -- IT'S AN AVERAGE AND IT'S BASED ON THIS STUDY THAT RECENTLY CAME OUT. AND, YOU KNOW, THE OBVIOUS QUESTION FROM THAT IS, WHAT'S THE IMPACT? HAS IT BEEN MAKING KIDS SICK?

VAL>> RIGHT.

PHILIP>> FRANKLY, WE DON'T KNOW BECAUSE IT'S SO NEW, THIS STUDY IS SO NEW, THAT DOCTORS REALLY HAVEN'T TYPICALLY BEEN LOOKING AT SCHOOL BUSES AS A SOURCE OF RESPIRATORY PROBLEMS. WE DO KNOW THAT PROBLEMS LIKE ASTHMA ARE ON THE RISE. THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY LOTS OF OTHER FACTORS IN THAT SMOG, BUT NOW THIS IS A POTENTIAL TARGET FOR DOCTORS TO ZERO IN ON AND WE MAY SEE A DEFINITE LINK BETWEEN THESE SCHOOL BUSES AND SOME CHILDHOOD ILLNESSES.

JESS>> AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OF REPLACING THE FLEETS IS, THE VIRTUE OF THE DIESEL BUS HAS BEEN THAT THEY LAST FOREVER.

PHILIP>> WELL, ANYBODY WHO'S EVER BEEN AROUND A DIESEL VEHICLE OF ANY KIND, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S A CITY BUS, A SCHOOL BUS OR A CAR OR TRUCK, THEY DO LAST. AND THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE BIG ASSETS OF THEM. THIS CLEAN DIESEL BUS APPARENTLY HAS MANY OF THOSE SAME ATTRIBUTES, BUT IT BURNS, FIRST OFF, A LOW SULFUR DIESEL FUEL AND IT'S EQUIPPED WITH THESE SCRUBBERS AND TRAPS INSIDE, SO FEWER PARTICLES COME OUT IN THE AIR.

VAL>> IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THEY'RE MAKING ADVANCES, THOUGH, IN TERMS OF GREEN TECHNOLOGY. PHILIP, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

OUR TOP STORY TOMORROW, LESS THAN 20 MILES FROM DOWNTOWN L.A., THE ABSTRACT NOTION OF URBAN SPRAWL IS SHOWING UP IN FOUR-FOOT FURRY FRIENDS.

PHILIP>> THESE BEARS LIVE ON A LOCAL HILLSIDE THAT'S NOT MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES FROM THE NEAREST STARBUCKS. SO FAR, CIVILIZATION HASN'T RUN THEM OFF, BUT THE BEARS' FATE IS FAR FROM CERTAIN.

>> I HATE TO LOOK OUT HERE AND THINK THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE 21 HOUSES BEHIND THAT BUSH HERE SOMEDAY, BUT HOPEFULLY SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN THAT'LL HELP THAT.

VAL>> THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AT 7:00 P.M.

JESS>> IN TONIGHT'S THINKERS, SHAKERS & NEWSMAKERS, JAMES CARROLL IS A FORMER PRIEST, BUT HE LEFT THE PRIESTHOOD AND WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE LONG HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S ONE-TIME CONTEMPT FOR JEWS.

VAL>> THE BOOK, "CONSTANTINE'S SWORD", IS A SERIOUS WORK OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH, BUT IT INCLUDES HIS OWN MEMOIRS, INCLUDING THE CRISIS OF FAITH THAT HE CONFRONTED. JESS RECENTLY SPOKE WITH JAMES CARROLL ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

JESS>> WE'RE TALKING WITH JAMES CARROLL WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF A RATHER HEAVY-TONED "CONSTANTINE'S SWORD: THE CHURCH AND THE JEWS".

JAMES CARROLL>> THIS IS A BOOK THAT IS WRITTEN FROM INSIDE THE CATHOLIC COMMUNITY AND ONE WAY TO THINK OF IT IS, YOU RECALL LAST SPRING WHEN POPE JOHN PAUL II --

JESS>> -- APOLOGIZED?

JAMES CARROLL>> APOLOGIZED, AND IT WASN'T MADE EXPLICIT PARTICULARLY WHY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEEDS TO MAKE AN APOLOGY. THIS BOOK MAKES IT ACTUALLY VERY EXPLICIT. THIS IS THE STORY OF A LONG DARK HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN CONTEMPT FOR JEWS WHICH IS TRAGIC AND WHICH HAS HAD TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCES.

JESS>> YOU WROTE ABOUT 2,000 YEARS OF HATRED.

JAMES CARROLL>> IT'S 2,000 YEARS OF HATRED, OF -- IT'S MORE THAN THAT, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT ISN'T JUST A FUNCTION OF BAD WILL. THERE WERE BASIC, TO MY MIND, MISTAKES MADE IN THE EARLY COUPLE OF CENTURIES OF THE CHRISTIAN ERA WHICH LED TO THIS TERRIBLE STRUCTURE OF MIND THAT CHRISTIANS HAVE, WHICH IS TO DEFINE OUR FAITH OVER AGAINST JUDAISM AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE. FOR EXAMPLE, JESUS CAME TO PREACH THE LAW OF LOVE. JEWS AND THE OLD TESTAMENT REPRESENT THE GOD OF LEGALISM AND REVENGE. THE GOD OF MERCY IS A CHRISTIAN GOD, THE GOD OF JUSTICE IS A JEWISH GOD. THAT VERY STRUCTURE OF MIND IS A SIGNAL OF A BASIC DENIGRATION AND THAT'S WHAT I'M REALLY TRYING TO GET AT, THAT BASIC STRUCTURE.

JESS>> IS THE ROOT OF THE 2,000 YEARS OF HATRED THE CRUCIFIXION?

JAMES CARROLL>> WELL, THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH IT IS BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE CRUCIFIXION TRADITIONALLY IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH HAS BEEN LAID AT THE FEET OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. AND THERE ARE VIEWERS IN YOUR AUDIENCE, I'M SURE, WHO AS YOUNG PEOPLE WERE CALLED CHRIST KILLER. THIS SLANDER THAT THE JEWS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF JESUS HAS BEEN REJECTED NOW BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BY MOST CHRISTIANS. IN 1965, THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL FORMALLY REJECTED THAT.

BUT IT'S STILL A BASIC PROBLEM BECAUSE THE GOSPELS THEMSELVES, THE PASSION NARRATIVE, THE STORY OF THE DEATH OF JESUS, EMPHASIZES THE CULPABILITY OF A GROUP CALLED IN THE GOSPELS THE JEWS AND EMPHASIZES THE RELATIVE INNOCENCE OF THE ROMANS WHEN, IN FACT, IN HISTORY WE KNOW IT WAS THE ROMANS WHO PUT JESUS TO DEATH. JESUS WAS DEAD SET AGAINST THE POWER OF AN IMPERIAL OCCUPYING ROMAN SYSTEM THAT WAS A VIOLATION OF EVERYTHING HE BELIEVED AS A SON OF ISRAEL. AND IT'S A TRAGEDY REALLY THAT HIS STORY SHOULD BE REMEMBERED AS A STORY THAT SETS HIM AGAINST THE JEWISH PEOPLE. JESUS WAS A JEW. CHRISTIANS SOMETIMES HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING THAT. HE LIVED AND DIED A FAITHFUL JEW. THE GOD HE PREACHED WAS THE GOD OF ISRAEL.

JESS>> AND YOU SUGGEST, ALL THOSE YEARS OF HISTORY, THAT THIS IS SOMEHOW RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HOLOCAUST?

JAMES CARROLL>> WELL, LET'S MAKE A COUPLE OF IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONS. FIRST OF ALL, THE HOLOCAUST WAS THE WORK OF THE NAZIS, A GODLESS, NEO-PAGAN, ANTI-CHRISTIAN, ANTI-RELIGIOUS HORROR, SO I WOULD NOT SAY THAT THE HOLOCAUST WAS IN ANY WAY THE WORK OF THE CHURCH OR WOULD I SAY --

JESS>> BUT THE ATTITUDE THAT WAS --

JAMES CARROLL>> -- BUT WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT WHAT THE NAZIS CAME OUT OF AND THEN EXPLOITED WAS THIS LONG HISTORY IN THE EUROPEAN MIND, THE CHRISTIAN MIND, THAT WAS PREPARED TO SEE THE JEW AS THE "OTHER" WHICH ENABLED NAZIS THEMSELVES TO TREAT THE JEW AS THE DEMONIC ENEMY. AND IT ALSO, MORE TO THE POINT PERHAPS, ENABLED A WHOLE CIVILIZATION, A WHOLE CONTINENT OF PEOPLE, TO STAND BY WHILE THE NAZIS CARRIED OUT THE FINAL SOLUTION, OR ATTEMPTED TO.

JESS>> -- AND AMONG THOSE WHO STOOD BY AND REMAINED SILENT WAS THE POPE.

JAMES CARROLL>> AND THAT'S ALWAYS THE KIND OF SHORTHAND FOR THIS FAILURE. I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD FORGET THAT WHAT POPE PIUS THE 12TH DID WAS TYPICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DEMOCRACIES AND OF MANY OF THE GREAT INSTITUTIONS OF CULTURE. THE SILENCE WAS DEAFENING AND IT WAS EUROPE-WIDE, BUT, OF COURSE, THE POPE REPRESENTS A RELIGION THAT CLAIMS TO BE FOLLOWING THE MESSAGE OF JESUS CHRIST AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES HIS FAILURE PARTICULAR. AND, YES, BY THE SILENCE, THE FAILURE TO OPPOSE THE GENOCIDE, IS A GRIEVOUS INDICTMENT OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION.

BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY IT POINTS US BACK TO THIS LONG HISTORY. IT ISN'T ENOUGH TO FOCUS ON PIUS THE 12TH. HIS SILENCE POINTS US BACK THROUGH THE DECADES AND CENTURIES PAST THE DREYFUS AFFAIR, TOWARD THE INQUISITION, TOWARD THE CRUSADES, ALL THE WAY BACK TO THAT FIRST MISTAKE, DEFINING JESUS AS THE ENEMY OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE.

JESS>> YOU HAD A DISTINGUISHED CAREER AS A PRIEST AND LEFT THE PRIESTHOOD. DID THIS PLAY A PART IN YOUR DECISION TO LEAVE THE PRIESTHOOD?

JAMES CARROLL>> WELL, I LEFT THE PRIESTHOOD AFTER A RELATIVELY SHORT TIME. I WAS A CATHOLIC PRIEST FROM 1969 TO 1975. THE QUESTION OF THE CHURCH'S RELATIONSHIP TO THE JEWS WAS VERY MUCH ON THE AGENDA OF CATHOLICS OF MY GENERATION AND WAS PUT THERE BY JOHN THE 23RD, BY THE PLAY "THE DEPUTY", BY THE NEWS FROM EUROPE, THE TRIAL OF ADOLPH EICHMANN, ANNE FRANK. SO, OF COURSE, IT WAS AN ELEMENT IN MY OWN EXPERIENCE. THE FAILURE OF THE CHURCH TO PROTEST AGAINST THE HOLOCAUST SEEMED ALMOST EERILY REPEATED BY THE FAILURE OF THE AMERICAN CHURCH TO PROTEST THE WAR IN VIETNAM, WHICH WAS THE EXPERIENCE OF MY GENERATION.

IT WOULD BE TOO SIMPLE TO SAY I LEFT THE PRIESTHOOD OVER THIS ISSUE, BUT THIS HISTORY WAS CERTAINLY PART OF WHAT WENT INTO IT. NO ONE IN THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION IS INNOCENT OF THIS CRIME AND THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE IT BEHOOVES ALL CHRISTIANS, TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY CAN DO IT, TO EXAMINE THIS HISTORY, LEAVE BEHIND OUR DEFLECTION, OUR DENIAL. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN DETERMINING A FUTURE OF A PEOPLE IS HOW THEY REMEMBER THEIR PAST. THIS IS A PAST THAT MUST BE REMEMBERED IF WE'RE GOING TO LEAVE IT BEHIND.

JESS>> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US ABOUT IT. JAMES CARROLL.

JAMES CARROLL>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VAL>> IN THIS SEASON OF PASSOVER AND EASTER, THAT IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT AND WE'D LOVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT IT. HERE'S HOW YOU REACH US AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT:

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
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4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
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JESS>> PATT MORRISON GIVES US HER TAKE ON THE ELECTION AND THE LOS ANGELES POLITICAL FAMILY IN TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> JUST AS TO A CORONER THE ONLY THING THAT'S POSSIBLY MORE INTERESTING THAN A LIVE BODY IS A DEAD ONE, TO POLITICAL JUNKIES, THE ONLY THING MORE INTERESTING THAN AN ELECTION IS THE POST-GAME POST-MORTEM OF THE ELECTION. THIS WEEK'S LOS ANGELES ELECTIONS HAVE ENOUGH IN THEM TO KEEP THE PUNDITOCRACY BUSY FOR WEEKS.

A REPUBLICAN MAYORAL CANDIDATE ENDORSED BY A POPULAR REPUBLICAN MAYOR LOST AND, IN LESS THAN TWO MONTHS, VOTERS WILL BE CHOOSING BETWEEN TWO DEMOCRATS WHOSE RESEMBLANCE ENDS AT THEIR PARTY IDENTIFICATION. JIM HAHN AND ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA ARE MEN WITH ENORMOUSLY DIFFERENT STYLES AND SKILLS AND NEITHER OF THEM MIGHT BE HERE IN THE MAYORAL RUNOFF IF TERM LIMITS HAD NOT FORCED THEM OUT OF THEIR OLD JOBS. TERM LIMITS GIVES NEWCOMERS A FIRST CRACK AT THE SYSTEM. IT GIVES POLITICIANS A SECOND CHANCE AND VOTERS A DOUBLE-TAKE BECAUSE SOME FAMILIAR FACES ARE BEING SEEN IN UNFAMILIAR PLACES.

TOM HAYDEN, A FORMER STATE SENATOR WITH A NATIONAL REPUTATION, MAY WIND UP ON THE CITY COUNCIL CASTING VOTES ON POTHOLES. A SECOND GENERATION OF POLITICAL HEIRS KEEPS PUSHING ITS WAY TO THE TOP. JIM HAHN IS A VETERAN WHITE POLITICIAN WHO IS NOW IN THE RUNOFF, THANKS IN NO SMALL PART TO SUPPORT BY BLACK VOTERS WHO STILL REVERE HIS FATHER, THE LATE SUPERVISOR KENNETH HAHN. AND HIS SISTER IS NOW IN A RUNOFF FOR A CITY COUNCIL SEAT. MIKE WOO, A FORMER CITY COUNCIL MEMBER WHO RAN FOR MAYOR AGAINST RICHARD RIORDAN, CAME IN SECOND TO AND NOW FACES A RUNOFF AGAINST THE SON OF A DISTRICT ATTORNEY, GIL GARCETTI, WHO WAS SOUNDLY VOTED OUT OF OFFICE JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO. BUT IN THE SAME RACE, THE BROTHER OF A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER WHO WAS PROMOTED TO SACRAMENTO WENT NOWHERE WHEN HE TRIED TO GET ELECTED TO HIS SISTER'S OLD JOB. YOU FOLLOWING THIS?

IT'S HARD TO KNOW, BUT L.A. MAY HAVE SHAKEN OFF ITS DOLDRUMS OF POLITICAL APATHY WITH A FAIRLY RESPECTABLE 32 PERCENT VOTER TURNOUT AND, OH, THERE'S ONE MORE THING ABOUT RELATIVE POLITICS. WITH THE MAYORAL RACE BETWEEN TWO DEMOCRATS, THERE WILL BE A FAMILY FEUD. AND SOMETIMES THE NASTIEST QUARRELS THERE ARE ARE THE ONES THAT ARE FOUGHT ALL IN THE FAMILY.

JESS>> IN TONIGHT'S PEOPLE, PLACES & THINGS, CALIFORNIA HAS LOST ABOUT 95 PERCENT OF ITS HISTORIC WETLANDS. THEY CONTINUE TO BE DESTROYED. NOW THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC IN LONG BEACH HAS CREATED AN EXHIBIT TO HELP VISITORS LEARN MORE ABOUT OUR REGION'S WETLANDS.

VAL>> NOW MUCH OF OUR PLANET'S LIFE DEPENDS ON THE EXISTENCE OF WETLANDS. THEY ARE VITAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF FISH, BIRDS AND PLANTS. THEY ALSO FILTER AND CLEAN WATER, PREVENT SOIL EROSION AND PROVIDE FLOOD CONTROL. SO WHY IS IT SO HARD TO PRESERVE THESE IMPORTANT ECOSYSTEMS? JOINING US WITH MORE ON THE WETLANDS EXHIBIT IS WARREN ILIFF. HE IS PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC IN LONG BEACH. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

WARREN ILIFF>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT TO CREATE A WETLANDS WITHIN YOUR AQUARIUM?

WARREN ILIFF>> IT WAS A LITTLE DIFFICULT BECAUSE THE AQUARIUM HAS JUST OPENED, SO WE DON'T HAVE, YOU KNOW, EXHIBITS THAT WE'VE RECYCLED, BUT WE WERE FORTUNATE IN THAT WE WERE ABLE TO REDO AN EXHIBIT THAT WAS ABOUT TIDE POOLS AND WHICH ARE ALSO PART OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA LANDSCAPE, OR HAVE BEEN PART OF IT, AND THEN WE ADDED A SECTION ABOUT WETLANDS BECAUSE WE HAVE -- OUR VOLUNTEERS, OUR EMPLOYEES, EVERYBODY WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS ISSUE. WE HAD ORIGINALLY FOCUSED ON CORAL REEFS AS SOMETHING THAT WE WERE REAL CONCERNED ABOUT, BUT THEY'RE SO FAR AWAY AND THE WETLANDS ARE SO CLOSE AND SO IMPORTANT TO ALL OF US. SO IT WAS GREAT TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THIS CHANGE AND HAVE THIS AREA.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THE STATISTICS ABOUT WETLANDS IN CALIFORNIA AND THE DEGREE TO WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN LOST. HERE THEY ARE. CALIFORNIA WETLANDS, BEFORE EUROPEAN SETTLEMENT, IN CALIFORNIA ALONE, IT'S NOT EVEN IN NORTH AMERICA, WE HAD THREE TO FIVE MILLION ACRES OF WETLANDS. TODAY, LESS THAN HALF A MILLION, 450,000 ACRES OF WETLANDS ARE LEFT. IT'S AMAZING. WHY DID THEY -- WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM?

WARREN ILIFF>> WELL, THEY WERE ALWAYS NEAR WATER PROBABLY AND THAT BECAME PRIME DEVELOPMENT LAND, AND THEY WERE ALWAYS THOUGHT OF AS NOT VERY ATTRACTIVE.

JESS>> THERE WAS A LONG HISTORY OF, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE MARSHES THAT BREED MOSQUITOES AND PRODUCE DISEASE, SO DRAIN THOSE. THAT WAS A HEALTH FACTOR, DRAINING MARSHES.

WARREN ILIFF>> AND THEY'RE SO PRODUCTIVE AND THEY'RE SO BEAUTIFUL, IN RETROSPECT. I DON'T KNOW.

VAL>> BUT DID WE NOT REALIZE THE ECOLOGICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THEM UNTIL RECENTLY?

WARREN ILIFF>> PERHAPS. YOU KNOW, PERHAPS WE THOUGHT THAT, LIKE SO MANY THINGS TO DO WITH THE OCEAN, EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE AND COME BACK AND, TO SOME DEGREE, THAT'S TRUE, IF WE GIVE NATURE A CHANCE.

JESS>> NOW THERE'S A MAJOR DISTINCTION BETWEEN INTERIOR WETLANDS AND COASTAL WETLANDS AND YOUR EXHIBIT WILL DEAL LARGELY WITH COASTAL WETLANDS?

WARREN ILIFF>> RIGHT, BECAUSE WE ARE ABOUT THE PACIFIC OCEAN AND WE HAVE A REAL EMPHASIS ON THE BIRD LIFE AND THE FISH LIFE. WETLANDS ARE WONDERFUL NURSERIES FOR FISH AND, OBVIOUSLY, MIGRATORY BIRDS.

VAL>> WELL, LET'S SEE SOME OF THE VIDEO THAT YOU BROUGHT AND YOU CAN TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT, WHAT WE MIGHT SEE AT THE AQUARIUM.

WARREN ILIFF>> THIS IS THE LAB PART THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE TIDE POOLS, WHICH IS VERY POPULAR. THE CHILDREN GET TO TOUCH THINGS AND --

JESS>> -- HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE.

WARREN ILIFF>> THAT'S INTERESTING. THAT'S AN EGG CASE FROM A SHARK THAT THE VOLUNTEER IS SHOWING TO THE CHILDREN.

VAL>> BUT THIS IS A TIDE POOL SECTION?

WARREN ILIFF>> RIGHT, AND THIS IS RIGHT NEXT TO WHERE THE WETLANDS IS. WE OPENED THEM KIND OF AT THE SAME TIME, SO THE CHILDREN GO FROM THE HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE HERE JUST AROUND -- YOU'LL SEE IN A MINUTE -- WE TRIED TO REPLICATE A LITTLE BIT OF THE EEL GRASS BEDS THAT OCCUR IN THE COASTAL WETLANDS AND THEY CREATE THE HABITAT.

JESS>> WHEN WILL YOU OPEN THE EXHIBIT?

WARREN ILIFF>> IT'S ALREADY OPEN. IT'S OPEN NOW. IT OPENED IN MARCH. THERE'S A CLAPPER RAIL NEST THAT'S A REPLICA ON THE EDGE OF THE WETLANDS. (LAUGHTER) THERE'S SOME SEA LIONS IN THE BACK THERE.

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) YOU WON'T FIND THEM IN THE WETLANDS.

WARREN ILIFF>> NO, NO. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> BUT HERE'S SOMETHING. WOULD THAT BE AN EXAMPLE OF WETLANDS?

WARREN ILIFF>> YES, EXACTLY.

JESS>> THE CLAPPER RAIL.

WARREN ILIFF>> A CLAPPER RAIL NEST, AN ENDANGERED SPECIES. ALSO OUR CRANES HAVE GOTTEN VERY ACTIVE. ONE OF OUR VOLUNTEERS, A COUPLE OF OUR VOLUNTEERS -- THIS WAS AT THE OPENING AND THEY'RE LOOKING AT THAT SHARK EGG CASE AGAIN.

VAL>> BOY, THEY JUST LOVE TO HOLD THINGS, DON'T THEY?

WARREN ILIFF>> IT'S WONDERFUL, YEAH. KIDS ARE AMAZING TO ME, HOW MUCH THEY ENJOY THE AQUARIUM AND LEARNING. THE MARINE ENVIRONMENT IS SUCH A FASCINATING ONE AND WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO A LOT WITH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS. SOME KIDS EAST OF THERE -- WE'VE SEEN A STATISTIC THAT SAYS THAT HALF THE KIDS LIVING EAST OF THE 405 HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN THE OCEAN.

VAL>> REALLY? IN LOS ANGELES?

WARREN ILIFF>> YEAH. ISN'T THAT INCREDIBLE?

VAL>> THAT'S AMAZING.

JESS>> WHAT SPECIFICALLY WILL THEY SEE IN THE EXHIBIT?

WARREN ILIFF>> WELL, THEY'LL SEE -- WE HAVE A LITTLE FIDDLER CRAB, WE HAVE SOME OF THE PLANTS, WE HAVE THE REPLICA OF THE NEST. WE'RE GOING TO GET AN ARTIFICIAL NEST OF A CLAPPER RAIL BECAUSE, BEING AN ENDANGERED SPECIES --

VAL>> -- THE CLAPPER RAIL? EXPLAIN A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT.

WARREN ILIFF>> IT'S A LITTLE SHORELINE BIRD THAT LIVES IN THE REEDS AND THE CORD GRASS THAT THEY HAVE AN AMAZING NEST THAT ACTUALLY FLOATS WITH THE TIDE. THE CLAPPER RAILS ACTUALLY CONSTRUCT THE NEST SO THAT IT CAN GO UP AND DOWN ON THIS CORD GRASS AND PROTECTS IT, PROTECTS THEIR YOUNG --

VAL>> -- THEY'RE ENDANGERED?

WARREN ILIFF>> THEY ARE ENDANGERED, AND THE LEAST TERN IS ANOTHER SPECIES THAT LIVES ADJACENT TO THESE WETLAND AREAS AND WE WERE RECENTLY WORKING ON THE RESTORATION OF THE HABITAT FOR THEM DOWN AT THE SEAL BEACH NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE. WE HAVE 300 OF OUR MEMBERS --

VAL>> -- I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, DO YOU GET INVOLVED IN POLITICAL FIGHTS OVER WETLANDS, OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY?

JESS>> YOU TRY TO AVOID IT? (LAUGHTER)

WARREN ILIFF>> WELL, NO, NO, I THINK WE SHOULD BE ADVOCATES. I MEAN, CLEARLY, WE SHOULD, AND I'M SO GLAD OUR AQUARIUM DOES TAKE THAT ATTITUDE.

JESS>> IS NOT THE PRINCIPAL PROBLEM WITH THE LOSS OF COASTAL WETLANDS THE FACT THAT PEOPLE LIKE TO LIVE ON THE COAST?

WARREN ILIFF>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

JESS>> SO MOST OF THOSE HAVE BEEN CONVERTED TO HOUSING?

WARREN ILIFF>> A LOT OF THEM HAVE. NOW THE GREAT THING IS THAT THERE ARE ALSO, IN OUR AREA NEAR LONG BEACH, OIL FIELDS THAT WERE IN AND THE GREAT THING IS, THE OIL IS DEPLETED --

JESS>> -- THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT WASN'T DEVELOPED. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> SO WE CAN RESTORE THOSE.

WARREN ILIFF>> WE CAN RESTORE THEM.

JESS>> SO THERE IS HOPE.

WARREN ILIFF>> YEAH, THERE IS HOPE THAT WE CAN DO BETTER.

VAL>> WARREN ILIFF, FROM THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING BY.

WARREN ILIFF>> THANKS.

JESS>> YOU CAN CHECK THE NUMBER AND WEB SITE ON YOUR SCREEN FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE WETLANDS EXHIBIT. IT'S ON DISPLAY AT THE AQUARIUM OF THE PACIFIC IN LONG BEACH.

562-590-3100
WWW.AQUARIUMOFTHEPACIFIC.ORG

VAL>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM THIS EVENING. HAVE A GOOD EVENING. SEE YOU TOMORROW.

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