11/9/01

LC011109

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CAN'T GET A CALIFORNIA DRIVER'S LICENSE, BUT THEY MAY NOW BE ABLE TO GET BY WITH A MEXICAN ID. TONIGHT WE'LL LOOK AT A NEW PLAN THAT COULD MAKE LIFE EASIER FOR THOUSANDS OF UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BUT IMMIGRATION REFORMERS SAY THAT'S A BAD IDEA AND WE'LL HEAR BOTH SIDES.

VAL>> WE'LL ALSO HEAR FROM L.A.'S NEWEST CITY COUNCILMAN, TOM LABONGE. TONIGHT KERMAN MADDOX GOES ONE-ON-ONE WITH THE MAN WHO WANTS TO BE THE PEACEMAKER AT L.A. CITY HALL.

JESS>> PLUS NEW DISCLOSURES ABOUT THE VIETNAM WAR AND THE PRESIDENT WHO OVERSAW MOST OF IT, LYNDON JOHNSON. LBJ'S SECRET TAPES HAVE JUST BEEN RELEASED AND THEY RAISE SOME BIG QUESTIONS. TONIGHT WE'LL TALK WITH A FORMER NETWORK CORRESPONDENT WHO COVERED BOTH JOHNSON AND THE WAR DURING THE 60'S.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.


VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS ARE CREDITED WITH DOING MANY OF THE DIFFICULT JOBS THAT KEEP SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA RUNNING, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR LEGAL STATUS, THEY USUALLY DON'T HAVE SOMETHING THAT'S PRETTY BASIC: A VALID ID.

VAL>> ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CAN'T GET A CALIFORNIA DRIVER'S LICENSE OR AN ID CARD. THEY ALSO CAN'T OPEN A BANK ACCOUNT OR EASILY CASH A CHECK. MANY UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS LIVE IN CONSTANT FEAR OF BEING DISCOVERED AND THEN DEPORTED, BUT NOW ORANGE COUNTY POLICE AND AT LEAST ONE MAJOR BANK, WELLS FARGO, SAYS THEY WILL START ACCEPTING CARDS ISSUED BY THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AS VALID IDENTIFICATION, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

JESS>> TONIGHT WE'VE GOT SOME QUESTIONS FOR THREE EXPERTS ON THIS SUBJECT. ANGELICA SALAS IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF C.H.I.R.L.A., THE COALITION FOR HUMANE IMMIGRANT RIGHTS; IRA MEHLMAN FROM F.A.I.R., THE FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM; AND FINALLY, A MAN WITH NO ACRONYM, SERGEANT BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA FROM THE SANTA ANA POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SERGEANT, IS THIS GOING TO MAKE YOUR LIFE A BIT EASIER WITH IMMIGRANTS, LEGAL OR OTHERWISE, HAVING A VALID ID?

SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> WE BELIEVE, IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THAT IT WILL MAKE OUR JOB A BIT EASIER JUST BY THE MERE FACT THAT WE'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE A FORM OF LEGAL IDENTIFICATION ON THESE INDIVIDUALS. IN THE PAST, THAT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT FOR US TO PERFORM OUR DUTIES AND OUR JOBS WHEN WE ENCOUNTERED AN INDIVIDUAL THAT DID NOT HAVE ANY FORM OF ID WHATSOEVER. THAT CREATES A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF IDENTIFICATION --

JESS>> -- YOU SENT THEM TO JAIL.

SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> WELL, WE STILL WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO THOSE INDIVIDUALS ARE. WE'RE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE BEING ARRESTED, BUT WE'RE ALSO CONCERNED WITH THOSE WHO ARE VICTIMS. WE ALSO NEED TO KNOW WHO THOSE VICTIMS ARE.

VAL>> BUT, MR. MEHLMAN, YOU HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT VIEW OF WHAT THE EFFECT OF A MEXICAN ID CARD THAT IS ACKNOWLEDGED HERE IN CALIFORNIA WOULD DO?

IRA MEHLMAN>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AS JESS WAS SAYING IN THE INTRODUCTION, ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS TO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO ELUDE DETECTION. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO OPEN BANK ACCOUNTS. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT EASY FOR PEOPLE TO BREAK THE LAW.

JESS>> IN WHAT WAY DOES IT MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO ELUDE DETECTION?

IRA MEHLMAN>> WELL, BECAUSE IF YOU CAN STAY HERE -- ACTUALLY, THE POLICY OF ACCEPTING THESE AS VALID DOCUMENTS FOR LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES AND NOT TURNING THIS INFORMATION OVER TO THE PROPER AUTHORITIES THAT HAVE TO DEAL WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, THEN WE ARE ENCOURAGING -- THE SANTA ANA POLICE AND OTHER POLICE DEPARTMENTS LIKE THE LAPD ARE SAYING THAT WE DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE BREAKING FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW. WE'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO COOPERATE WITH FEDERAL AUTHORITIES TO SEE TO IT THAT THOSE LAWS ARE ENFORCED. IF WE KEEP MAKING IT EASIER, WE SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO FIND THAT WE HAVE BETWEEN EIGHT AND ELEVEN MILLION PEOPLE LIVING HERE ILLEGALLY AND, AMONG THAT GROUP, IT IS VERY EASY, AS WE SAW ON SEPTEMBER 11, FOR PEOPLE WHO MEAN TO DO REAL HARM TO THIS COUNTRY TO SORT OF SLIP IN AND BLEND INTO THE SCENERY.

VAL>> MS. SALAS, IS THAT ACCURATE?

ANGELICA SALAS>> NO. NO, IT'S NOT. WE'VE HAD IN CALIFORNIA --WE HAD A DRIVER'S LICENSE AND IDENTIFICATION CARD FOR ANYBODY. IN 1993, THAT WAS REPEALED VERY MUCH BECAUSE WE HAD AN ANTI-IMMIGRANT SENTIMENT DURING THAT TIME. BUT ID CARDS ARE SIMPLY THAT. WE WANT TO KNOW WHO LIVES IN OUR COMMUNITY, WHO LIVES IN OUR STATE, AND A DRIVER'S LICENSE IS JUST BASICALLY A DOCUMENT THAT GIVES YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW THAT YOU KNOW THE RULES OF THE ROAD. THAT IS WHAT THESE TWO DOCUMENTS ARE. THEY ARE NOT IMMIGRATION POLICY NOR SHOULD THEY BE.

VAL>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHO WOULD ISSUE THESE ID CARDS. HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THEY'RE VALID? HOW DO WE KNOW THEY CAN'T BE COUNTERFEITED?

ANGELICA SALAS>> OKAY. THE ID CARDS -- WHAT WE PUSH FOR IS THAT ACTUALLY EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE A STATE ID CARD. EVERYBODY SHOULD, WHETHER YOU'RE DOCUMENTED OR NOT, JUST SO WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE. IN THIS CASE, THE MEXICAN CONSULATE IS GOING TO PROVIDE CONSULAR ID, SOMETHING THEY'VE DONE IN THE PAST, BUT NOW THEY'RE DOING IT ON A MASS SCALE, ESPECIALLY AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN'T CONDUCT THEIR BASIC NEEDS. I MEAN, THEIR BASIC NECESSITIES LIKE GOING TO A POST OFFICE OR GOING TO THE BANK.

VAL>> SO THESE CARDS TO MEXICAN NATIONALS --

ANGELICA SALAS>> -- THEY ARE CARDS TO MEXICAN NATIONALS.

VAL>> WHO ARE HERE LEGALLY OR --

ANGELICA SALAS>> -- OR ILLEGALLY. IT DOESN'T MATTER. YOU KNOW, WHAT IT DOES MATTER IS THAT YOU CAN PROVE YOUR IDENTITY AND THAT YOU CAN GIVE THE CONSULATE VALID DOCUMENTATION, MEXICAN DOCUMENTATION, THAT SAYS WHO YOU ARE. THEY WILL THEN PROVIDE YOU WITH A CONSULAR ID AND THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO. THIS ID IS GOING TO SHOW WHO YOU ARE, WHERE YOU LIVE AND THAT'S IT. THE BASIC NECESSITY.

JESS>> THIS IS UNIQUE TO ORANGE COUNTY AT THIS POINT, BUT I EXPECT IT PROBABLY WILL SPREAD. YOU REALLY ARE HAPPY, AREN'T YOU, SERGEANT, TO BE OUT OF THE IMMIGRATION BUSINESS?

SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> YES, WE ARE. OUR CONCERN IS JUST TO ENSURE THAT THE COMMUNITY OF ORANGE COUNTY IS A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE IN. OUR CONCERN -- THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT WHETHER THE INDIVIDUALS ARE HERE LEGALLY OR NOT LEGALLY. WE LIKE THE IDEA BECAUSE IT IDENTIFIES THIS INDIVIDUAL BASED ON THAT DOCUMENT THAT IS ISSUED BY THE MEXICAN CONSULATE.

JESS>> BUT IT IS NO EXAGGERATION THAT OCCASIONALLY SOMEONE WOULD BE PICKED UP FOR A MINOR SPEEDING TICKET OR EVEN JAYWALKING AND, WITHOUT ID, THEY DID GO TO JAIL, DIDN'T THEY?

SGT BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> YES. THAT'S THE ISSUE THAT WE -- THAT'S WHERE WE ARE GLAD THAT THIS IDENTIFICATION IS BEING GENERATED BY THE MEXICAN CONSULATE BECAUSE, IN TIMES PAST, IF AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERED AN INDIVIDUAL ON THE STREET THAT HAD NO IDENTIFICATION AND HE PURSUED THIS INDIVIDUAL FURTHER IN AN INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL WAS, IT CREATED MORE WORK THAN NECESSARY FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL, THUS RESULTING IN TYING UP THAT OFFICER IN TRYING TO IDENTIFY THIS INDIVIDUAL WHEN HE COULD BE OUT THERE OUT ON THE STREET DOING POLICE WORK.

JESS>> BUT, MR. MEHLMAN, YOU THINK IT IS THE JOB OF LOCAL POLICE, THEN, TO NOTIFY IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES WHEN THEY PICK UP SOMEONE THEY SUSPECT OF BEING AN ILLEGAL ALIEN?

IRA MEHLMAN>> LOOK, ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ULTIMATELY WORK FOR THE SAME PEOPLE. THEY WORK FOR THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY, THE TAXPAYERS OF THIS COUNTRY, AND WHEN THEY COME ACROSS INFORMATION THAT IS OF SOME USE TO SOME OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, THEY HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO SHARE THAT. AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I HARK BACK TO SEPTEMBER 11 WHERE YOU HAD THE FBI THAT KNEW STUFF, BUT WOULDN'T COMMUNICATE THAT TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT WOULDN'T COMMUNICATE --

JESS>> -- WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT MOST OF THOSE PEOPLE WERE IN THIS COUNTRY LEGALLY.

IRA MEHLMAN>> THEY WERE, BUT BECAUSE THE FBI DIDN'T SHARE INFORMATION WITH CONSULAR OFFICERS, THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO WAS ON THE WATCH LISTS. WHAT WE NEED IS A BETTER SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE ALL THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES WHO ARE ALL PAID BY THE SAME PEOPLE SHARE THE INFORMATION SO THAT WE CAN ENFORCE LAWS. WE'RE NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE SANTA ANA POLICE GO OUT AND LOOK FOR PEOPLE, BUT IF THEY FALL INTO THEIR LAP, THEY OUGHT TO DO SOMETHING.

VAL>> BUT AREN'T, IN A SENSE, WE BETTER OFF IF SOMEONE WHO'S HERE ILLEGALLY, WE STILL AT LEAST KNOW THEIR NAME, THEIR ADDRESS, THEIR AGE, A DESCRIPTION? WOULDN'T THAT HELP LAW ENFORCEMENT?

IRA MEHLMAN>> OH, SURE. WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH BEING ABLE TO IDENTIFY PEOPLE OR EVEN WITH THE MEXICAN CONSULATE ISSUING THESE CARDS. WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS THAT OUR OWN LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, WHEN THEY HAVE REASONABLE GROUNDS TO SUSPECT THAT SOMEBODY IS IN THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY, OUGHT TO ACT RESPONSIBLY LIKE THEY WOULD IF THEY KNEW OF ANY OTHER KIND OF LAW VIOLATION.

VAL>> BUT THIS CARD DOESN'T PREVENT THEM FROM DOING SO. IN FACT, IT ALMOST MAKES IT EASIER.

IRA MEHLMAN>> NO, IT DOESN'T PREVENT THEM, BUT YOU DO HAVE POLICIES, AS THE SERGEANT WAS SAYING, IN SANTA ANA, HERE IN LOS ANGELES, THAT SPECIFICALLY SAY WE ARE NOT GOING TO COOPERATE. WE ARE NOT GOING TO SHARE INFORMATION.

SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> I DISAGREE WITH THAT. WE DO COOPERATE WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND WE HAVE IN THE PAST. THAT MAY INCLUDE THE INS, THE FBI AND DEA. WHERE THE ISSUE HERE COMES IS THE OPTIONS THAT WE HAVE. DO WE PREFER TO HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL OUT IN THE STREET, AS I SAID BEFORE, THAT HAS NO IDENTIFICATION CREATING MORE WORK FOR US? AND AS A SOCIETY --

IRA MEHLMAN>> -- WELL, WE DON'T DISAGREE ABOUT THAT.

ANGELICA SALAS>> AND I THINK, ALSO, I MEAN, A LOT OF THESE IMMIGRANTS ARE ALSO VICTIMS OF CRIME. MANY OF THEM WILL NOT REPORT WHEN THEY ARE VICTIMS, WHEN THEY ARE RAPED, WHEN THEY ARE VICTIMS OF -- THEY'VE BEEN ROBBED, FOR EXAMPLE. WITHOUT AN IDENTIFICATION CARD, YOU CAN'T OPEN A BANK ACCOUNT, SO A LOT OF THESE IMMIGRANTS HAVE TO THEN USE CHECK CASHING PLACES. THEN THEY CASH THEIR CHECKS, THEY HAVE CASH, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL WAIT ON DAYS WHEN PEOPLE ARE GETTING PAID TO ACTUALLY ROB THOSE PEOPLE --

IRA MEHLMAN>> -- THEN THEY OUGHT TO GO AFTER THE ROBBERS. THE COPS OUGHT TO GO AFTER THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HOLDING PEOPLE UP.

ANGELICA SALAS>> BUT THEY NEED A PERSON TO ACTUALLY SAY THAT THEY'VE BEEN A VICTIM OF CRIME. IF A PERSON IS AFRAID TO GO TO THE POLICE WHEN THEY'RE A VICTIM OF CRIME, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO SO, SO THOSE BURGLARS CONTINUE TO BE OUT THERE PREYING ON INNOCENT VICTIMS.

IRA MEHLMAN>> BUT WE ARE CONSTANTLY CREATING THESE ARTIFICIAL FIREWALLS THAT SAY WE ARE NOT GOING TO TOUCH YOU IN ANY SITUATION. TODAY, YOU PRACTICALLY HAVE TO WALK INTO INS AND DECLARE YOURSELF TO BE AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT TO GET DEPORTED BECAUSE --

ANGELICA SALAS>> -- THAT'S NOT TRUE.

IRA MEHLMAN>> IT IS TRUE. WE DEPORT VIRTUALLY NOBODY EXCEPT PEOPLE WHO HAVE COMMITTED VIOLENT CRIMES IN THIS COUNTRY --

ANGELICA SALAS>> -- BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE. 

IRA MEHLMAN>> IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

ANGELICA SALAS>> WE'VE HAD THE LARGEST INCREASE IN DEPORTATION IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS --

IRA MEHLMAN>> -- BECAUSE WE'RE TAKING PEOPLE OUT OF PRISON.

ANGELICA SALAS>> NO, THAT IS NOT TRUE. I THINK THAT, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THESE ARE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMUNITY POLICIES THAT DEAL WITH THE PROTECTION OF ALL ITS CITIZENS. WE CANNOT INSTITUTE IMMIGRATION POLICY, WHICH IS A FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY, ON OUR LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES --

IRA MEHLMAN>> -- WELL, THERE WE'RE BACK TO "IT'S NOT MY DEPARTMENT".

ANGELICA SALAS>> NOT NECESSARILY.

IRA MEHLMAN>> EVERYBODY SAYS "IT'S NOT MY DEPARTMENT" AND, AS A RESULT, NOTHING EVER GETS DONE.

VAL>> FINAL WORD FROM MS. SALAS. REAL QUICK.

ANGELICA SALAS>> WHAT WE WANT TO DO IS, WE WANT TO HAVE JUST BASIC IDENTIFICATION. WE WANT TO KNOW WHO'S IN OUR COMMUNITY, WHO WE LIVE WITH AND THAT'S SIMPLY WHAT WE WANT TO DO.

VAL>> THANKS VERY MUCH. SORRY TO HAVE TO CUT YOU OFF.

ANGELICA SALAS>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VAL>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, ANGELICA SALAS FROM C.H.I.R.L.A., IRA MEHLMAN FROM F.A.I.R. AND SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA FROM THE SANTA ANA POLICE DEPARTMENT. THANK YOU ALL.

SGT. BALTAZAR DE LA RIVA>> THANK YOU.

ANGELICA SALAS>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, WE'LL LOOK AT SOME FASCINATING FOOTAGE FRESH FROM AFGHANISTAN. WE'LL MEET AN AWARD-WINNING DOCUMENTARY PRODUCER WHO'S BEEN FOLLOWING A LOS ANGELES RELIEF GROUP INTO NORTHERN AFGHANISTAN.

EDWARD ARTIS>> IF THESE PEOPLE DON'T GO UNDER CANVAS SOON, THEY'RE GOING TO FREEZE TO DEATH. YOU KNOW HOW COLD IT'S BEEN HERE THE LAST COUPLE OF NIGHTS AND NOW WE GOT RAIN AND THE NEXT THING IS GOING TO BE SNOW. WE'RE GOING TO START LOSING WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THOSE ELDERLY MEN THAT WE MET THE OTHER DAY IN THAT CAMP WILL DIE SOON TOO.

VAL>> THAT'S MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT AT 7:00 P.M.

IT ISN'T EASY TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF A LEGEND, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST HAS NO CHOICE. LAST MONTH, TOM LABONGE WON A LANDSLIDE VICTORY IN THE SPECIAL ELECTION TO REPLACE THE LATE JOHN FERRARO ON THE L.A. CITY COUNCIL. MR. FERRARO DIED AFTER A LENGTHY ILLNESS.

JESS>> TOM LABONGE IS NEW TO THE COUNCIL, BUT HE'S CERTAINLY NO NEWCOMER TO CITY HALL. NOW SOME ARE CALLING HIM CITY HALL'S NEW PEACEMAKER, THIS AT A TIME WHEN THE COUNCIL IS PLAGUED WITH INTERNAL FEUDING. TONIGHT TOM LABONGE GOES ONE-ON-ONE WITH OUR OWN KERMAN MADDOX. KERMAN?

KERMAN>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, JESS. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES, TOM.

TOM LABONGE>> GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

KERMAN>> WELL, AS VAL INDICATED, YOU HAVE REPLACED YOUR FORMER BOSS, THE LEGENDARY JOHN FERRARO. POLITICIANS LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE FIRST HUNDRED DAYS. WHAT IS TOM LABONGE'S NUMBER ONE PRIORITY? WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET DONE IN YOUR FIRST ONE HUNDRED DAYS?

TOM LABONGE>> WELL, THE FIRST ONE HUNDRED DAYS IS ORGANIZING THIS DISTRICT AND ALSO GETTING ALL THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS AND INTERESTED PARTIES TOGETHER. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A COMMUNITY CONGRESS COMING UP HERE AT THE END OF NOVEMBER. THEN WE'RE GOING TO PLAN OUT SOME STRATEGIES FOR THE EARLY PART OF NEXT YEAR TO GET SOME THINGS DONE. I'M MEETING WITH THE DEPARTMENT HEADS RIGHT NOW ON SEVERAL ISSUES AND DISCUSSING THINGS THAT WE COULD DO TO GET THE THINGS GOING IN THE DISTRICT THAT HAVE SLACKED A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE OF THE PASSING OF JOHN FERRARO.

KERMAN>> IS THERE ANY ONE PARTICULAR ISSUE THAT YOU WANT TO FOCUS ON? PARKS, POLICE, DEVELOPMENT, CRIME?

TOM LABONGE>> EVERYTHING IS VERY IMPORTANT. PUBLIC SAFETY IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO THE COMMUNITY, BUT ALSO GETTING THE COMMUNITY INVOLVED IN THE PROCESS IS REAL IMPORTANT TO ME. I LOVE PARKS AND I'LL BE VERY INVOLVED WITH ALL THE PARKS.

KERMAN>> NOW YOU WERE IN A VERY INTERESTING SITUATION IN THAT YOU RAN AGAINST A VERY WEALTHY CANDIDATE, BETH GARFIELD, WHO REALLY HAD THE ABILITY TO FINANCE HER OWN CAMPAIGN, WHICH MEANS YOU HAD TO GET OUT THERE AND RAISE MONEY FROM REGULAR PEOPLE, BUT IN MANY CASES, YOU HAD TO RAISE MONEY FROM SPECIAL INTERESTS. HOW DO YOU BALANCE, TOM, REPRESENTING THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE IN YOUR DISTRICT WITHOUT TURNING YOUR BACK ON THOSE SPECIAL INTERESTS WHO GAVE YOU MONEY? NOT BECAUSE YOU'RE HANDSOME, BECAUSE THEY WANT IT, SO --

TOM LABONGE>> -- NO, EVERYBODY IS SPECIAL TO ME, TRULY, AND I KNOW HOW TO SAY NO TO PEOPLE. IF IT'S A BAD PROJECT, IF IT'S A BAD DEVELOPMENT, A BAD IDEA, I'M GOING TO NOT SUPPORT IT. I'M GOING TO WORK TOGETHER. I BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER. THAT IS MY CONCEPT AND THAT'S HOW I'VE ALWAYS FUNCTIONED AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

KERMAN>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE COUNCIL PRESIDENCY, THE FIGHT FOR THE COUNCIL PRESIDENCY. THERE WAS A BIG ARTICLE IN THE L.A. TIMES THE OTHER DAY THAT SAID THE OLD GUARD AND THE NEW GUARD ARE AT ODDS AND THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO WANT TO OUST COUNCIL PRESIDENT, ALEX PADILLA. HOW BIG OF AN ISSUE IS THIS WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES ON THE CITY COUNCIL?

TOM LABONGE>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SURE HOW BIG OF AN ISSUE IT IS. I'M JUST GOING TO HELP EVERYBODY BE SUCCESSFUL. ONE THING I BRING TO THE COUNCIL, HAVING WORKED FOR THE MAYOR FOR SEVEN YEARS, IS I HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THEIR DISTRICTS. I WANT TO HELP THEM BE SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR DISTRICTS, HELP THEM AND THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND THEIR PROBLEMS, AND WORK FOR THE BEST INTERESTS OF LOS ANGELES. THAT'S MY GOAL, TO WORK FOR THE BEST INTERESTS OF LOS ANGELES.

KERMAN>> NOW THE PAPER CLASSIFIED THE CAMPS AS THE OLD VERSUS THE NEW. YOU'VE BEEN THERE SHORTLY. IS IT JUST OLD VERSUS NEW? IS IT IDEOLOGY? IS IT PHILOSOPHY? WHAT IS IT?

TOM LABONGE>> WHAT DO I LOOK LIKE? DO I LOOK OLD OR DO I LOOK NEW? TELL ME.

KERMAN>> I THINK YOU'RE FAIRLY YOUNG AND HANDSOME. (LAUGHTER)

TOM LABONGE>> OKAY, GOOD. I LIKE THAT. ALL RIGHT. I WORK WITH PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME -- THE REAL TERM, TERM LIMITS, IS AFFECTING. THERE ARE MEMBERS WHO WILL BE TERMED OUT IN A YEAR AND A HALF, SO THAT DOES AFFECT THINGS. THEY HAVE TO WORK VERY AGGRESSIVELY TO GET THEIR AGENDAS DONE FOR THEIR DISTRICTS, SO THEY'RE VERY ANXIOUS FOR THAT. BUT THERE'S A NEW GREAT BALANCE OF TALENT IN THE CITY COUNCIL THAT IS WORKING HARD FOR THE PEOPLES' INTEREST AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO.

KERMAN>> NOW SINCE SEPTEMBER 11, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED TO POLITICIANS TO KIND OF WORK TOGETHER IN EFFORTS TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS. THIS PRESIDENCY FIGHT, I GET CALLS FROM PEOPLE A LOT OF TIMES ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE. IS IT AFFECTING YOUR ABILITY TO DO THE WORK FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY OF L.A.?

TOM LABONGE>> OH, NO, NOT AT ALL, AND I DON'T SEE IT AS BIG AS THE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS SAY IT TO BE. YOU KNOW -- BUT I'VE BEEN THERE FIVE DAYS, SO, YOU KNOW, I FEEL IT, AND I'VE BEEN THROUGH CYCLES BEFORE ON THE COUNCIL. BUT I WANT EVERYBODY TO BE SUCCESSFUL. I WANT THE PRESIDENT OF THE CITY COUNCIL TO BE SUCCESSFUL. I WANT THE MAYOR TO BE VERY SUCCESSFUL. BECAUSE IF THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL, WE'RE ALL SUCCESSFUL.

KERMAN>> DO YOU THINK THIS BATTLE HAS A LOT TO DO WITH TERM LIMITS? IN FACT, TOM LABONGE IS HERE TODAY, BUT IN A COUPLE OF YEARS, YOU'VE GOT TO MOVE ON. TERM LIMITS CREATES THIS REVOLVING DOOR FOR NEW PEOPLE. IS THAT THE PROBLEM?

TOM LABONGE>> WELL, THERE'S A -- WE SHOULD HAVE SOME PEOPLE REALLY LOOK AT THAT AND STUDY IT. NOT NECESSARILY POLITICIANS, BUT ACADEMICIANS FROM OUR UNIVERSITIES. LOOK WHAT IT'S DONE. YOU SEE THIS RECENT ELECTION FOR THE MAYOR'S RACE. I THINK THERE WERE SIX OR SEVEN CANDIDATES FROM SACRAMENTO. ALL OF THEM FAILED. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DO LIKE LOCAL CANDIDATES WHO ARE INVOLVED, SO THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE PEOPLE CHANGING CHAIRS AS MUCH AS THEY WANT TO SEE NEW FACES AND NEW LEADERSHIP.

KERMAN>> OKAY. I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION ABOUT ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES IN THE CITY, PUBLIC SAFETY. MAYOR JIMMY HAHN, OF COURSE, GOT ELECTED WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE POLICE UNION. HE'S BEEN ADVOCATING THE 3-12 PROGRAM, POLICE OFFICERS WORK THREE DAYS A WEEK, TWELVE HOURS A DAY. THE POLICE CHIEF HAS INDICATED HE DOESN'T THINK IT'S GOOD FOR PUBLIC SAFETY. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT IT'S NOT THE RIGHT THING TO DO AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME BECAUSE A LOT OF THE COPS HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED TO THE AIRPORT AND OTHER PLACES BECAUSE OF POSSIBLE THREATS. WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN ON THIS WHOLE 3-12 PLAN?

TOM LABONGE>> WELL, I SUPPORT 3-12. I THINK IT'S REAL IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT DIFFERENT TYPES OF WORK SCHEDULES NOT ONLY JUST FOR OUR POLICE OFFICERS, BUT FOR OTHER DEPARTMENTS. I WANT TO AFFECT THE PROBLEMS OF CONGESTION. HOW? BY HAVING STREET PAVING DONE ON WEEKENDS, OKAY? ON BIG STREETS, NOT HAVING THEM IMPACT RUSH HOUR. I WANT TO HAVE PEOPLE SERVED WELL BY BUILDING AND SAFETY. I WANT THEM OUT ON THE WEEKENDS. THAT'S WHEN THERE'S A LOT OF ILLEGAL CONSTRUCTION. I WANT TO MAKE SURE WHAT TAKES PLACE THERE. SOME OF THE WORK THAT WE DO IN PUBLIC WORKS CAN BE DONE, BUT WE ALL HAVE TO DISCUSS WITH THE VARIOUS UNITS TO GET THE COOPERATION. YOU KNOW THE OLD SONG "EIGHT DAYS A WEEK" BY THE BEATLES? I WANT THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES TO WORK FOR ITS PEOPLE --

KERMAN>> -- I'M NOT THAT OLD. (LAUGHTER)

TOM LABONGE>> -- (LAUGHTER) EIGHT DAYS A WEEK, YOU KNOW? AND THERE'S DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS OF TIMES. AND I WANT OUR POLICE OFFICERS -- THEY'RE NOT ALL GOING TO BE ON 3-12. SOME ARE GOING TO BE 4-10. THE SENIOR LEADS POSSIBLY 4-10. THE SPECIALIZED UNITS --

KERMAN>> -- SO YOU SUPPORT 3-12?

TOM LABONGE>> YEAH, I SUPPORT 3-12.

KERMAN>> YOU THINK IT'S GOOD?

TOM LABONGE>> I THINK IT'S GOOD.

KERMAN>> YOU DON'T THINK PUBLIC SAFETY IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE AT ALL?

TOM LABONGE>> NO. I THINK THE OFFICERS -- I'VE TALKED TO THE OFFICERS. DURING THE CAMPAIGN WHEN I WOULD SEE POLICE OFFICERS, I'D TALK TO THEM AND DISCUSS IT WITH THEM, AND I'VE WORKED CLOSELY WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ALL MY 27 YEARS, SO I FEEL IT WILL BE GOOD. AND IF IT'S NOT GOOD, WE'RE GOING TO BRING IT BACK. THE POLICE UNION HAS AGREED TO THAT IF THERE'S A PROBLEM THAT WE DON'T FORESEE. YOU KNOW, WE DID HAVE 3-12 IN 1996 AT THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT BUREAUS THROUGHOUT THE CITY OF ONE DIVISION AND IT DID WORK. SO LET'S GET THIS GOING, LET'S GET OUR POLICE OFFICERS FOCUSED ON THE COMMUNITY AND PROBLEM-SOLVING IN THE COMMUNITY. I THINK THIS WILL BE A GREAT BENEFIT FOR ALL OF LOS ANGELES.

KERMAN>> LET ME ASK YOU ONE OTHER QUESTION. SINCE THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11 THAT'S HAD A DEVASTATING EFFECT ON THE ECONOMY, ESPECIALLY HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORK AT THE AIRPORT HAVE BEEN LAID OFF. WHAT CAN THE COUNCIL DO TO REINVIGORATE THE LOCAL ECONOMY AND DO SOMETHING FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORK WHO ARE NOW LAID OFF?

TOM LABONGE>> WELL, THE MAYOR, YOU KNOW, PUT TOGETHER THIS TASKFORCE AND THEY HAD GIVEN IT THREE AND A HALF WEEKS TO COME UP WITH A PROJECT. AS GEORGE KEEFER SAID, THAT WAS SUCH A SHORT TIME PERIOD THAT NO ONE HAD A CHANCE TO ARGUE. THEY JUST FOUND A GOOD SOLUTION TO TRY TO ENERGIZE THE ECONOMY BY STEPPING UP ALL THE PROJECTS THAT HAVE BEEN APPROVED. RIGHT NOW OUR LIBRARY PROGRAMS, SOME OF THE CONSTRUCTION FOR THE SEVENTEEN LIBRARIES ARE UNDER CONSTRUCTION, A LOT OF PUBLIC WORKS PROJECTS, WORKING WITH THE PRIVATE INDUSTRY TO ENCOURAGE, AND ALSO HAVE A SUPPORT FOR CALIFORNIA AND REDISCOVER L.A. WHEN'S THE LAST TIME YOU'VE BEEN TO SAN PEDRO?

KERMAN>> IT'S BEEN A WHILE.

TOM LABONGE>> OKAY.

KERMAN>> EXIT QUESTION. IS ALEX PADILLA GOING TO SURVIVE, YES OR NO?

TOM LABONGE>> OH, I THINK HE WILL.

KERMAN>> YOU THINK HE'LL SURVIVE?

TOM LABONGE>> SURE.

KERMAN>> ALL RIGHT. TOM LABONGE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

TOM LABONGE>> OKAY. THANK YOU. BYE-BYE.

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JESS>> TODAY, JOURNALISTS ARE COMPLAINING THAT THE PENTAGON HAS FAR TOO MUCH CONTROL OVER THE FLOW OF INFORMATION FROM AFGHANISTAN. AS A RESULT, REPORTERS HAVE TO RELY ON HANDOUTS WITH NO INDEPENDENT OBSERVATION OR CONFIRMATION AND HAVE NO DIRECT ACCESS TO THE SOLDIERS WHO ARE FIGHTING THE WAR ON TERRORISM.

VAL>> BUT, IN SOME WAYS, IT WASN'T BETTER IN THE 1960'S WHEN AMERICA WAS FIGHTING ANOTHER WAR IN VIETNAM. NEWLY RELEASED AUDIOTAPES INDICATE THAT PRESIDENT LYNDON JOHNSON SECRETLY DOUBTED THAT AMERICAN FORCES HAD COME UNDER HEAVY ATTACK AT THE GULF OF TONKIN. THAT WAS IN 1964. AND YET, JOHNSON STILL USED THAT FAMOUS INCIDENT AS THE RALLYING CRY FOR GREATLY EXPANDING AMERICA'S WAR EFFORT IN VIETNAM.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS A VETERAN JOURNALIST WHO COVERED BOTH VIETNAM AND LBJ, MURRAY FROMSON. IN THE 60'S, HE WAS A WAR CORRESPONDENT IN VIETNAM FOR CBS NEWS. NOW HE'S A JOURNALISM PROFESSOR AT USC.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE NEW REVELATIONS?

MURRAY FROMSON>> I THINK THEY VERIFY A CONVICTION I'VE HAD FOR A LONG TIME. JOHNSON TRULY WAS A TRAGIC SHAKESPEAREAN FIGURE IN AMERICA POLITICS. HERE HE WAS COMING TO THE CONGRESS, COMING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, SAYING THIS ATTACK HAD TAKEN PLACE AND, WITHIN FOUR WEEKS OF HAVING THIS LEGISLATION PASSED, HE SAID, WELL, MAYBE IT REALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN.

NOW THOSE OF US WHO WERE THERE IN SAIGON HAD OUR DOUBTS OURSELVES BECAUSE I TRIED TO GET OUT ON THE TWO DESTROYERS THAT ALLEGEDLY WERE UNDER ATTACK, THE TURNER JOY AND THE MADDOX, AND THE MILITARY REFUSED TO GET US OUT THERE. THEY KEPT ON MAKING ALL KINDS OF EXCUSES. SO WE ALL HAD THIS FEELING THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG AND, OF COURSE, IT BECAME TRUE AND BECAME MORE EVIDENT AS TIME WENT ON.

VAL>> WELL, NOW, DID THESE TAPES INDICATE AT WHAT POINT LYNDON JOHNSON STARTED HAVING THESE DOUBTS? IN OTHER WORDS, DID HE KNOW RIGHT FROM THE GET-GO THAT THIS ATTACK WAS MAYBE --

MURRAY FROMSON>> -- IT WAS THREE OR FOUR WEEKS. AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT THIS REALLY SAYS, IT REALLY RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY IN GENERAL BECAUSE, AFTER ALL, FIVE PRESIDENTS WERE INVOLVED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BY VIETNAM, DIRTIED BY VIETNAM IN SOME WAY. IT SHOWS THE INABILITY OF PRESIDENTS TO GO TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, I MADE A MISTAKE. MAYBE WE HAVE TO REVERSE THINGS.

NOW WHAT IF HE HAD SAID, I MADE A MISTAKE, THAT EARLY IN THE GAME? WE HAD 56,000 AMERICANS KILLED IN VIETNAM, MILLIONS OF VIETNAMESE KILLED AND INJURED, AND WHAT HAPPENED? HE USED TO BE TORTURED. ACCORDING TO THE TAPES, HE WAS TORTURED BY THE FACT THAT, WHEN ONE AMERICAN GOT KILLED, HE WANTED TO BE AWAKENED AT NIGHT TO BE TOLD ABOUT IT. NOW OBVIOUSLY HE COULDN'T DO THAT ALL THROUGH THE WAR, BUT THAT WAS HIS FEELING AT THE BEGINNING.

I COVERED JOHNSON, WELL, IN 1960 AND 1964. I HAD OCCASION TO BE WITH HIM SEVERAL TIMES AND I REALLY THINK THE TRAGEDY OF LYNDON JOHNSON IS THAT HE MAY TURN OUT HISTORICALLY TO BE ONE OF THE BEST PRESIDENTS WE'VE HAD BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID IN THE AREA OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT. THOSE WERE TWO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT PIECES OF LEGISLATION. BUT RIGHT NOW, VIETNAM DROWNS IT ALL OUT.

WHEN THE TAPES COME OUT LIKE THIS AND YOU HEAR THE INDECISION, I'M STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT HE SAID, "PERHAPS THE BOMBING IS REALLY DOING NO GOOD." NOW HERE WE ARE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BOMBING IN AFGHANISTAN. IT'S THE SAME STORY. I MEAN, I WAS IN KOREA. I WAS IN KOREA AND VIETNAM AND I KNOW, FROM TALKING TO AIRMEN, PILOTS, TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO HAD LOOKED AT THE SITUATION AND HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT, THAT BOMBING DOESN'T DO IT. IT NEVER HAS, IT NEVER WILL.

VAL>> LET'S GIVE PEOPLE AN INDICATION OF THE VOICE HIMSELF. LET'S LISTEN TO PART OF ONE OF THOSE SECRET WHITE HOUSE TAPES. LYNDON JOHNSON IS TALKING TO HIS DEFENSE SECRETARY, ROBERT MCNAMARA, AND IT'S CLEAR, AS YOU SAID, THAT LBJ DOUBTS THE TONKIN GULF ATTACK EVER HAPPENED.

LYNDON B. JOHNSON>> "NOW, BOB, I HAVE FOUND OVER THE YEARS THAT WE SEE AND WE HEAR AND WE IMAGINE A LOT OF THINGS IN THE FORM OF ATTACKS AND SHOTS AND PEOPLE RUNNING AT US AND I THINK IT WOULD MAKE US VERY VULNERABLE IF WE CONCLUDE THESE PEOPLE WERE ATTACKED AND WE WERE MERELY RESPONDING, AND IT DEVELOPS THAT IN FACT THIS WASN'T TRUE AT ALL AND I THINK WE OUGHT TO CHECK THAT VERY, VERY CAREFULLY AND I DON'T KNOW WHY IN THE HELL SOME TIME OR OTHER THEY CAN'T BE SURE THAT THEY'RE BEING ATTACKED."

JESS>> MURRAY, THESE TAPES ALSO INDICATE THAT LONG BEFORE HE HAD BEGUN TO REALIZE TOO THAT WE PROBABLY COULD NOT WIN THIS WAR, THAT WE WERE NOT WINNING THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE VIETNAMESE PEOPLE, BUT STILL HE COULDN'T PULL OUT. WAS THAT BECAUSE OF HIS OWN SENSE OF HISTORY OR AFRAID HE WOULD EMBARRASS THE NATION OR LYNDON JOHNSON?

MURRAY FROMSON>> I THINK HE WAS -- HE FEARED REPUBLICAN ACCUSATIONS OF HIM BEING SOFT ON COMMUNISM BECAUSE THIS WAS PART OF THE COLD WAR. THE VIETNAM WAR WAS PART OF THE COLD WAR, AND HE COULDN'T SEE HIMSELF PORTRAYED IN THAT WAY. HE WAS A MAN OF TREMENDOUS EGO. HE WAS A MAN WHO WAS A BRAGGADOCIO. HE WAS A BORE IN MANY WAYS, BUT HE WAS AN INCREDIBLE POLITICIAN. BUT HE WAS A POLITICIAN LIKE SO MANY WHO'D GO TO HIGH OFFICE WHO REALLY CAN'T STAND THE FACE OF CRITICISM.

VAL>> THESE TAPES, THEY'RE JUST COMING NOW? RECENTLY?

MURRAY FROMSON>> YES.

VAL>> HOW IS IT? HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

MURRAY FROMSON>> WELL, BECAUSE SECRET TAPES ARE BEING DECLASSIFIED AND BEING REMOVED BY THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND BY THE LYNDON JOHNSON LIBRARY IN TEXAS, SO THESE THINGS ARE COMING OUT NOW. WE'VE HAD MANY BOOKS WRITTEN ABOUT JOHNSON AND HERE YOU SAY, MY GOSH, MORE? I THINK WE'VE NOT SEEN THE END OF IT.

JESS>> IT'S YOUR JUDGMENT THAT ONCE HE DECIDED WE PROBABLY WERE NOT GOING TO OR COULD NOT WIN THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THAT WE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED THEN?

MURRAY FROMSON>> YES, YES.

JESS>> HOW MANY LIVES DO YOU THINK WERE LOST AFTER THAT BECAUSE THAT DECISION WAS NOT MADE?

MURRAY FROMSON>> WELL, MOST OF THE AMERICANS WHO DIED DIED AFTER THE TONKIN GULF --

JESS>> -- WASN'T THAT WASTED DEATHS?

MURRAY FROMSON>> THAT WAS THE COMMITMENT THAT WE MADE TO REALLY GO INTO THE WAR NOT FULL-BORE, BUT AT LEAST WITH A MAJOR COMMITMENT OF AMERICAN FORCES. IN OTHER WORDS --

JESS>> -- BUT THAT SUGGESTS TO THOSE WHO LOST SONS AND BROTHERS THAT THOSE WERE ALL WASTED LIVES.

MURRAY FROMSON>> HOW DO YOU ANSWER, HOW DO YOU TELL NOW THE WIDOWS, THE HUSBANDS, THE WIVES, THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND CHILDREN OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO DIED IN VIETNAM THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE? I MEAN, WE TRIED TO TELL IT AS JOURNALISTS. WE TRIED IN MANY WAYS NOT TO TAKE AN EDITORIAL POSITION, BUT TO SHOW JUST WHAT THE WAR WAS ABOUT, TO SHOW THE INCONSISTENCIES OF THE CONFLICT AND OF THE COMMITMENT. AND THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, AS ARE BEGINNING TO BE NOW, WHO ARE CRITICIZING THE PRESS FOR WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

VAL>> I WONDER WHAT LESSONS THIS HAS FOR US TODAY?

MURRAY FROMSON>> WELL, LESSONS ARE THAT WE SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN VIETNAM, WE SHOULD HAVE LEARNED IN GRENADA AND IN PANAMA AND IN NICARAGUA AND IN THE PERSIAN GULF. THE PRESS HAS TO HAVE ACCESS BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY LINK TO PUBLIC INFORMATION AND UNDERSTANDING, THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE CIVIL COMMUNITY. PRESIDENTS ALWAYS WILL SAY THAT THE PRESS HAS GOT IT WRONG OR TRY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. IF YOU TAKE AN EXAMPLE OF JACK KENNEDY AND THE BAY OF PIGS. I MEAN, IT JUST GOES ON AND ON. HISTORICALLY, WE ARE LOOKING AT THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I DON'T KNOW, FRANKLY, HOW YOU REALLY COPE WITH THIS, ASIDE FROM GETTING THE CONGRESS INVOLVED TO INSIST THAT THE PENTAGON HAS TO GIVE US FREE ACCESS. BUT ONCE YOU LET THE GOVERNMENT DO THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A THING THAT JOURNALISTS ARE VERY UNCOMFORTABLE WITH. I'M UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT, BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY OTHER ANSWER.

JESS>> THE PUBLIC ISN'T, BUT PERHAPS THEY SHOULD BE. MURRAY FROMSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING OUR GUEST TONIGHT.

VAL>> AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING TONIGHT. TAKE CARE.

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