2/1/02

LC020201

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> A CALIFORNIA BEACH TOWN NEARLY DIED BECAUSE OF POLLUTION, BUT NOW ITS REBORN, THANKS TO THE POLLUTER.

VAL>> THE COMPANY WAS UNOCAL, BUT INSTEAD OF PUMPING OIL, IT PUMPED MILLIONS INTO IMPROVING THIS SEASIDE TOWN.

EVELYN PHELAN>> THEY HAVE UPGRADED IT MUCH MORE THAN WHAT ANY OF US EXPECTED.

VAL>> REMEMBER THE OLD SAYING ABOUT NEVER JUDGING A BOOK BY ITS COVER? WELL, FORGET IT. WE'LL MEET THE EXPERTS WHO KNOW HOW TO FIND RARE EDITIONS. THEY'LL PREVIEW THIS WEEKEND'S ANTIQUARIAN BOOK FESTIVAL AND TELL YOU HOW TO LOCATE THE GEMS IN YOUR OWN BOOKCASE.

JESS>> PLUS, HE'S A MAN WHO'S NEVER AT A LOSS FOR WORDS AND TONIGHT HE SHARES A FEW WITH US.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> VETERAN COMMENTATOR, JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, TALKS ABOUT HIS LONG-RUNNING TV SHOW AND OFFERS SOME PREDICTIONS ON HOT ISSUES OF THE DAY.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.


VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT WE'RE TAKING YOU TO WHAT USED TO BE A DIRTY, POLLUTED STRETCH OF BEACH ALONG CALIFORNIA'S CENTRAL COAST. THESE DAYS, IT'S ALMOST PRISTINE, ALL BECAUSE OF A MASSIVE CLEANUP CARRIED OUT BY THE PRIME POLLUTER.

VAL>> AVILA BEACH SUFFERED FROM DECADES OF UNDERGROUND OIL SEEPAGE. THE PIPELINES WERE OWNED BY UNOCAL AND THE COMPANY HAS NOW SPENT MILLIONS GETTING RID OF THE POLLUTION. BUT WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR UNOCAL TO SEE THE LIGHT? JUDGE FOR YOURSELF AS WE SHOW YOU AVILA BEACH THE WAY IT IS AND THE WAY IT WAS.

IF YOU GET ON THE 101, HEAD NORTH ABOUT 200 MILES AND TAKE THE EXIT MARKED AVILA BEACH, YOU'LL FIND YOURSELF JUST SHY OF SAN LUIS OBISPO AND ABOUT HALFWAY BETWEEN L.A. AND SAN FRANCISCO.

AVILA BEACH, POPULATION 400, A HALF-MOON OF SCENIC SHORELINE FIT FOR POSTCARDS AND PERFECT SUMMERS. BUT DON'T BE FOOLED BY APPEARANCES. FOR THE PAST DECADE, THIS PICTURESQUE POCKET HAS BEEN EMBROILED IN CONTROVERSY, LAWSUITS, ANGRY ACCUSATIONS AND BOISTEROUS MEETINGS, ALL PART OF A BATTLE OVER WHO IS AT FAULT AND WHO SHOULD PAY WHOM HOW MUCH FOR DAMAGES. THE PROBLEM? TOXIC CONTAMINATION.

SINCE ABOUT THE THIRTIES, AVILA BEACH WAS AN OIL PORT. UNDERGROUND PIPES CARRIED CRUDE OIL, DIESEL FUEL AND GASOLINE TO AND FROM TANKERS OFFSHORE. IN 1989, IT WAS DISCOVERED THAT THE PIPES HAD BEEN LEAKING. PLUMES OF UNDERGROUND OIL THREATENED THE BEACH AND PROPERTY VALUES. THE COMPANY RESPONSIBLE WAS UNOCAL, BUT IT TOOK UNOCAL NINE YEARS TO ACCEPT FULL RESPONSIBILITY AND ANOTHER TWO TO COMPLETE A MASSIVE CLEANUP.

BILL ALMAS>> WE LEARNED A LOT OF LESSONS FROM THIS OURSELVES.

VAL>> BILL ALMAS MANAGES GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS FOR UNOCAL.

BILL ALMAS>> WHEN UNOCAL STEPPED UP, WE TOOK RESPONSIBILITY. WE DID WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO AND WE TRIED TO DO IT IN THE BEST WAY THAT WE COULD.

VAL>> AND IT COST UNOCAL TENS OF MILLIONS. VIRTUALLY EVERY BUSINESS IN THIS SMALL DOWNTOWN HAD TO BE DESTROYED TO GET TO THE CONTAMINATED SOIL AND ONLY A FEW BUSINESSES, INCLUDING THE INN AT AVILA BEACH AND AVILA GROCERY AND DELI, SURVIVED. UNOCAL WORKED OUT SETTLEMENTS WITH THE RESIDENTS, COVERING BUSINESS LOSSES, HOUSING EXPENSES AND INCONVENIENCE.

EVELYN PHELAN>> RIGHT. IT'S A WORD, THIS INCONVENIENCE.

VAL>> EVELYN PHELAN IS 92. SHE CAME TO AVILA BEACH FOR A WEEKEND BACK IN 1946 AND NEVER LEFT. SHE HAD TO MOVE OUT OF HER HOUSE FOR A WHILE WHILE THE EXCAVATION WAS GOING ON, BUT SHE SAYS UNOCAL WAS VERY FAIR AND ACTUALLY ENDED UP MAKING MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS TO THE TOWN.

EVELYN PHELAN>> THEY HAVE UPGRADED IT MUCH MORE THAN WHAT ANY OF US EXPECTED.

VAL>> THOSE UPGRADES COST UNOCAL $18 MILLION DOLLARS. NOW WAVE-LIKE TIERED SEATING HAS REPLACED AN OLD RETAINING WALL ALONG FRONT STREET. A NEW PARK HAS PROVEN TO BE A FAVORITE AMONG KIDS. A MOSAIC ADORNS THE PROMENADE AND THERE ARE EVEN SOME VERY REALISTIC STARFISH SCATTERED ABOUT.

BILL ALMAS>> I THINK THE RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES AND I THINK IF YOU TALK TO MOST PEOPLE ANYWAY, THEY'LL TELL YOU THAT WE'VE DONE ABOUT AS GOOD A JOB AS WE COULD UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

ERIC WICK>> THIS IS ONLY MY THIRD TIME COMING TO THIS BEACH AND I COULD SEE MYSELF COMING HERE PROBABLY AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK.

VAL>> ERIC WICK IS A STUDENT AT NEARBY CAL POLY.

ERIC WICK>> THE REASON WHY I LOVE THIS PLACE SO MUCH IS BECAUSE I'VE BEEN HERE FOR THREE YEARS AND AVILA BEACH IS NEW TO ME. YOU KNOW, I COULD COME HERE AND I SEE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SCENE EVERY TIME I COME HERE. WE HAVE BASKETBALL COURTS OVER THERE. YOU CAN PLAY BASKETBALL RIGHT ON THE BEACH, WHICH IS TOTALLY AWESOME. I MEAN, IT'S SO QUICK HOW IT'S TURNED FROM A PLACE THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN HAVE PEOPLE WALKING AROUND ON TO A PLACE NOW WHERE EVERYONE WANTS TO BE AT.

VAL>> MANY RESIDENTS WERE AFRAID THAT LARGE UPSCALE COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT WOULD MOVE IN AND CHANGE AVILA'S BOHEMIAN DOWN-TO-EARTH CHARACTER.

EVELYN PHELAN>> IT WAS A JUNKY LITTLE TOWN. IT WAS KIND OF FUNKY, BUT WE LIKED IT THAT WAY.

VAL>> BUT SO FAR, SO GOOD. BEACHCOMBER BILL IS LOOKING FORWARD TO REOPENING HIS SHOP. THE SEA BARN WAS THE LAST TO BE TORN DOWN AND HE SAYS THE NEW SEA BARN WILL BE THE FIRST TO OPEN THIS DECEMBER. RIGHT NOW THE ONLY FOOD AVAILABLE IS FROM THE HOT DOG STANDS, BUT SOON A NEW RESTAURANT AND PUB WILL BE HERE, ALONG WITH A HOTEL AND CONDOMINIUMS.

EVELYN PHELAN>> I LIKE THE NEW AVILA BEACH. I'M MUCH HAPPIER WITH IT THIS WAY.

BILL ALMAS>> AVILA HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SORT OF HAVE URBAN RENEWAL AND DO IT ALL AT ONCE.

VAL>> AND THERE'S ANOTHER LESS VISIBLE CHANGE. UNOCAL IS NOW THE TOWN'S LARGEST LANDOWNER. IT OWNS SEVENTY PERCENT OF THE COMMERCIAL PROPERTY, HAVING BOUGHT OUT MANY OF THE BUSINESSES. UNOCAL SAYS IT ISN'T INTERESTED IN DEVELOPING THE LAND ITSELF. INSTEAD, IT WILL SELL TO DEVELOPERS, WHO MUST ADHERE TO SPECIFICS LAID OUT BY AN AVILA CITIZENS COMMITTEE.

THERE IS AN IRONIC POSTSCRIPT TO THIS OTHERWISE HAPPY ENDING AND THAT IS THE CONTAMINATED SAND HAD TO BE MOVED TO THE CENTRAL VALLEY. IT TOOK DIESEL TRUCKS 10,000 TRIPS AND 2.8 MILLION MILES. THAT'S FIVE TRIPS TO THE MOON. JUST THINK OF THE POLLUTION.

IN FACT, A LOCAL AIR QUALITY OFFICIAL ESTIMATES THAT HAULING ALL THAT SAND AND THE HEAVY EQUIPMENT USED FOR THE CLEANUP PUT 134 TONS OF EMISSIONS INTO THE AIR. SO ALTHOUGH THE GROUND UNDERNEATH AVILA IS CLEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE BREATHING DIRTIER AIR FOR A LONG TIME.

BILL ALMAS>> THERE WAS A LOT OF FUEL EXPENDED IN THAT TOO, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE THOUGHT ABOUT WHEN PERFORMING THESE REMEDIATION PROJECTS.

VAL>> AS FOR UNOCAL, WHOSE STORAGE TANKS WERE ONCE A LANDMARK LOOMING ON THE HILL ABOVE THE TOWN, IT'S NO LONGER DOING ANY OIL BUSINESS HERE AND THE TANKS ARE GONE FOR GOOD. AND HOW ABOUT AVILA'S FUTURE? WELL, EVERYONE IS OPTIMISTIC. SOME EVEN SAY THAT, ONCE THE TOWN IS COMPLETE, TOURISTS WILL BE AS NUMEROUS AS THE SHEARWATERS WHO FLOCK HERE EVERY YEAR.

BILL ALMAS>> AVILA, WE HOPE, IS GOING TO BECOME A DESTINATION, MORE OF A DESTINATION, MORE OF A YEAR-ROUND RESORT COMMUNITY.

ERIC WICK>> WOW, TWO OR THREE YEARS FROM NOW, THERE'S GOING TO BE BUSINESSES EVERYWHERE. THERE'S GOING TO BE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE. WOW, IT'S GOING TO CHANGE A LOT.

LARRY EPNER>> I HAVE A FEELING THAT, IF THEY GET ALL THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WANT, THEY WON'T BE HAPPY WITH THE CROWDS, ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE.

VAL>> BUT ARE YOU AFRAID IT MIGHT GET TOO CROWDED?

DEBBIE EPNER>> WELL, THAT'S A CHANCE WE HAVE TO TAKE.

VAL>> IF TOURISTS DO END UP FLOCKING TO AVILA, RESIDENTS HAD BETTER GET READY FOR A DIFFERENT KIND OF POLLUTION, BUT AT LEAST THIS KIND IS ABOVE-GROUND AND THE SEAGULLS SEEM MORE THAN WILLING TO HELP WITH THE CLEANUP.

JESS>> YOU KNOW THAT TERRITORY. YOU KNOW THE ISSUE AND THE PEOPLE UP THERE. IS EVERYBODY REALLY HAPPY WITH THE SOLUTION?

VAL>> GENERALLY SPEAKING, EVERYONE SEEMS VERY HAPPY. I DIDN'T RUN ACROSS ANYBODY WHO WASN'T. BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, UNOCAL SPENT A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY ON THIS.

JESS>> YOU MENTIONED $18 MILLION DOLLARS, BUT DID THAT INCLUDE WHAT THEY PAID PEOPLE FOR THEIR INCONVENIENCE?

VAL>> NO, THE $18 MILLION WAS JUST THE UPGRADE, THE BEACH, THE NICE THINGS THAT YOU SAW THAT THEY ADDED TO BEACH. THERE WAS $10 MILLION TO BUY OUT THE BUSINESSES AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE CLEANUP. SO UNOCAL IS NOT DISCLOSING THE TOTAL AMOUNT THAT THEY PAID, BUT SOME PEOPLE SAY IT'S UPWARDS OF $60 MILLION DOLLARS, EVEN CLOSE TO $100 MILLION DOLLARS. AND I CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE YOU THAT EVERYBODY WHO WAS AFFECTED, THE RESIDENTS WHO WERE AFFECTED BY THIS, ARE SITTING VERY COMFORTABLY ON RETIREMENT ACCOUNTS. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> BUT SOME OF THOSE WHO WERE AFFECTED, ARE THERE LONG-TERM OR LINGERING HEALTH EFFECTS OF THE POLLUTION?

VAL>> YOU KNOW, THE POLLUTION NEVER AFFECTED ANYONE'S HEALTH. IT WAS REALLY PREDOMINANTLY ABOUT PROPERTY VALUES. BECAUSE OF THE OIL UNDERNEATH THE PROPERTY, THEY COULDN'T SELL THEIR OWN HOMES OR THEIR PROPERTY, THEY COULDN'T BUILD ON THEM BECAUSE OF THIS POLLUTION, SO IT WASN'T REALLY ABOUT HEALTH. IT WAS ABOUT PROPERTY VALUES.

JESS>> BUT LOOKING AT THOSE PICTURES, THERE AREN'T THAT MANY BUSINESSES UP AND RUNNING NOW.

VAL>> NOT YET, BUT I WENT THERE JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKENDS AGO AND, BY THIS MAY, THEY SHOULD HAVE A RESTAURANT AND A CAFÉ AND A BAR, SO A GREAT PLACE TO GO JUST IN TIME FOR SUMMER.

JESS>> AND THE PIER IS STILL THERE?

VAL>> OH, YES. THE ORIGINAL SAN LUIS PIER, ABSOLUTELY. UNTOUCHED.

JESS>> IT'S A GREAT SPOT.

VAL>> THANK YOU.

MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, A MEDICAL CONTROVERSY ABOUT A WIDELY-USED PRESCRIPTION DRUG, RITALIN. SOME REGARD IT AS A KID'S MEDICATION, BUT NOW GROWNUPS CLAIM THEY'RE GETTING HOOKED ON RITALIN.

GAY YEE>> ELIZABETH WERTZEL NEVER DREAMED RITALIN COULD BECOME ADDICTIVE. AS SHE SOON FOUND OUT, THAT WAS A BIG MISTAKE.

ELIZABETH WERTZEL>> I DON'T KNOW HOW ELSE TO DESCRIBE CRUSHING UP FORTY PILLS A DAY AND SNORTING THEM AND NOT BEING ABLE TO STOP.

JESS>> YOU'RE ABOUT TO MEET A MAN WHO RARELY SUFFERS SELF-DOUBT. AT LEAST IF HE DOES, HE NEVER SHOWS IT. BUT THEN AGAIN, THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS AMERICA'S BEEN WATCHING JOHN MCLAUGHLIN FOR THE PAST TWENTY YEARS.

VAL>> MCLAUGHLIN IS ONE OF THE EARLY MASTERS OF POLITICAL TALK. HIS PROGRAM, "THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP", PROVES THAT POLITICS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE BORING OR SOFT-SPOKEN. RECENTLY THE SHOW MOVED TO KCET AND THE FORMER PRIEST TURNED TV PUNDIT USED THE OCCASION TO OFFER US SOME OF HIS TRADEMARK PREDICTIONS. HERE'S MCLAUGHLIN'S ONE-ON-ONE CONVERSATION WITH PHILIP BRUCE.

PHILIP>> YOU RAISED ONE OF THOSE ISSUES ABOUT ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK. INEVITABLE? IS IT COMING?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> OH, I THINK IT IS INEVITABLE AND I THINK THAT THE CURRENT LEVEL OF PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE AND POPULARITY THIS PRESIDENT HAS ACHIEVED WILL BE MAINTAINED BECAUSE THE SECURITY NEEDS ARE STILL SO HUGE. OUR BORDERS ARE SO POROUS AND THERE ARE, WHAT, 6,000 MEMBERS OF THE AL QAEDA THAT ARE SOMEWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES. CHANCES ARE OVER THE YEARS THAT OSAMA HAS BEEN AT WORK, MANY OF THOSE ARE AMERICAN.

PHILIP>> WILL WE GET BIN LADEN?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> I THINK WE WILL EVENTUALLY, BUT I'M WONDERING WHETHER THIS IS GOING TO SERVE THE PRESIDENT, THE COMMANDER-IN-CHIEFS OF THE PENTAGON'S CAUSE IF WE DO GET HIM BECAUSE MAYBE SOME OF THE AIR WILL GO OUT OF THE BALLOON OF THIS EFFORT. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I MEAN? THE MOMENTUM HAS TO BE MAINTAINED BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH YET TO BE DONE TO GAIN CONTROL.

THAT NEXT ACT, IF IT IS AN OUTRAGE OF SIGNIFICANT PROPORTIONS, WILL PLUNGE THIS SOCIETY FURTHER INTO ECONOMIC DISTRESS AND THE REDUCED USAGE OF THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY ON WHICH WE SO MUCH DEPEND AND MULTIPLE RAMIFICATIONS THAT I THINK ARE DRIVING THE FIRST YEAR OF THIS WAR UP TO A TRILLION DOLLARS IN COST AND INDIRECT AND DIRECT DAMAGE.

PHILIP>> DO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE ENDURANCE FOR THIS? THE PRESIDENT WHO'S TRYING TO PREPARE US ALL FOR A LENGTHY WAR?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

PHILIP>> YOU THINK WE'VE GOT THAT?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> I THINK WE HAVE THAT AND I THINK IT'S BEEN EXHIBITED. I THINK THE RESURRECTION OF NEW YORK ENGINEERED BY RUDY GIULIANI, THE PAST MAYOR, IS A CASE IN POINT. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THE RESPONSE IS SOBERING TO US AND I THINK THERE IS A TRANSFORMATION OF THE CULTURE GOING ON AND I THINK THERE'S A NEW SOBRIETY THAT HAS RETURNED TO PHILOSOPHICALLY-HELD BELIEFS AND HISTORICAL BELIEFS AND VALUES OF YESTERYEAR, EVEN TRACING RIGHT BACK TO THE FOUNDING FATHERS. THERE'S A WAVE OF CONSTRUCTIVE PATRIOTISM THAT IS FELT IN THE UNITED STATES.

PHILIP>> I'D BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T ASK YOU ABOUT ENRON BEFORE THIS IS OVER. IT'S A FINANCIAL SCANDAL NOW. IS IT GOING TO BECOME A POLITICAL SCANDAL?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> I THINK IT WILL. I THINK DOTS HAVE TO BE CONNECTED. I THINK IT HAS TO BE SEEN THAT ENRON WAS NOT BEING RUN AND OPERATED ON STRAIGHT MARKET PRINCIPLES. IT WAS BEING RUN ON THE PROTECTION OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. THE QUESTION IS WHETHER PEOPLE WILL SEE THE LINKAGE AND WHETHER IT CAN BE DEMONSTRATED IN SOME PERSUASIVE WAY THAT THERE WAS A LINKAGE BETWEEN HEAVY GIFTING TO THE GOVERNMENT AND THE RESPONSE OF THE GOVERNMENT IN FORMULATING PUBLIC POLICY THAT WOULD PROTECT ENRON.

THE POLLS ALREADY SHOW A NAUSEATING FIGURE AND THAT IS THAT 75 PERCENT -- I THINK IT'S 73 PERCENT, TO BE EXACT -- OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FEEL THAT PUBLIC POLICY IS WROUGHT IN DIRECT PROPORTION AS THERE ARE DONATIONS, MONEY DONATIONS, TO A CANDIDATE. CANDIDATES AND POLITICIANS DO MAKE PUBLIC POLICY ON THE BASIS OF WHAT THEY ARE GIVEN IN MONEY CONTRIBUTIONS. THAT'S TERRIBLE.

PHILIP>> ENRON SPENT A LOT OF MONEY, THOUGH, AND APPARENTLY DIDN'T GET MUCH BACK. THEY SPENT A LOT OF MONEY IN CALIFORNIA TRYING TO INFLUENCE POLICY HERE. THEY SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON CAMPAIGNS AND, IN THE END, WHEN THEY WERE CRYING FOR HELP, --

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> -- WELL, I'M NOT SURE WE CAN SAY THAT THERE WAS NOT AN INCLINATION, AN UNLEVEL PLAYING FIELD, CREATED TO BENEFIT ENRON. I THINK, AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE PROBABILITY IS THAT THERE WAS --

PHILIP>> -- THEY DID GET SOMETHING FOR THEIR MONEY?

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> THEY DID GET THEIR UNFAIR PLAYING FIELD.

PHILIP>> YOUR SHOW IS IN ITS 20TH YEAR AND I THINK THOSE OF US WHO'VE BEEN WATCHING IT FOR MOST OF THAT TIME KNOW THAT IT'S ONE OF THE MOST WIDELY IMITATED PROGRAMS IN THAT VEIN OF POLITICAL TELEVISION. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING WHEN YOU FIRST GOT THIS GOING? BECAUSE PUBLIC AFFAIRS TELEVISION IN THE EARLY DAYS WAS NOT THE KIND OF THING THAT YOU PUT ON TELEVISION. IT WAS ENTERTAINING. IT WAS KIND OF A --

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> -- I FOUND THAT WHAT WAS NEEDED WAS A KIND OF FORUM IN WHICH PEOPLE COULD, IN THEIR HARRIED AND HURRIED LIVES OF TODAY, BE ABLE TO SEE SUBJECTS AND ISSUES DEBATED WITH VIGOR AND PASSION AND THEREBY BECOME MORE FAMILIAR WITH WHAT IS AT STAKE. THE PROGRAM IS SOMETIMES DESCRIBED AS A SHOUT-FEST, BUT IT REALLY IS A PASSION-FEST.

PHILIP>> IT'S A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM AND A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOUR PROGRAM NOW ON KCET.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN>> A PLEASURE TO BE HERE AND A PLEASURE TO BE ON THE STATION AND ALSO WITH YOU, PHIL. THANK YOU.

VAL>> AFTER TWENTY YEARS ON NBC IN LOS ANGELES, "THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP" HAS FINALLY MOVED UP TO A BETTER ADDRESS ON PUBLIC TELEVISION. YOU CAN SEE THE PROGRAM SATURDAY NIGHTS AT 6:30 HERE ON KCET.

JESS>> WE'RE GOING TO SHARE SOME OF THE LETTERS VIEWERS HAVE SENT IN ABOUT RECENT BROADCASTS. LAST FRIDAY, WE TOLD YOU ABOUT THE UPHILL BATTLE TO MEET CALIFORNIA'S MANDATE TO PUT CLEAN, NON-POLLUTING CARS ON THE ROAD BY 2003. ONE VIEWER SAYS HE:

"NEEDS TO SEE SOME REAL ADVANCES IN THE TECHNOLOGY LIKE INCREASED RANGE PER CHARGE, INCREASED POWER AND PERFORMANCE AND FAST-CHARGING BEFORE I PUT MY WALLET WHERE MY MOUTH IS. IF YOU BUILD IT, I WILL COME."

VAL>> AND WE RECENTLY SPOKE WITH REVEREND JAMES LAWSON, A CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER WHO MARCHED WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING AND HELPED SHAPE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-VIOLENT RESISTANCE. ONE VIEWER CALLS REVEREND LAWSON:

"A REMARKABLE ASSET AND TEACHER TO THOSE OF US WHO DO NOT FULLY COMPREHEND JUST HOW INSTITUTIONAL RACISM WORKS. WE WOULD BE WISE TO HEED HIS GOOD WORDS."

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
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JESS>> HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HEARD SOME SO-CALLED EXPERT PREDICT THAT BOOKS WILL SOMEDAY FALL VICTIM TO EXTINCTION? IT CLEARLY HASN'T HAPPENED YET, NOT EVEN IN OUR VIDEO-OBSESSED INTERNET-CONNECTED WORLD.

VAL>> WELL, WE CAN'T BE SURE WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR BOOKS, BUT TONIGHT WE'LL HEAR FROM SOME EXPERTS WHO KNOW ALL ABOUT BOOKS OF THE PAST. THEY'RE HERE TO TELL US ABOUT THE 35TH ANNUAL CALIFORNIA ANTIQUARIAN BOOK FAIR, WHICH STARTED TODAY AT THE LOS ANGELES AIRPORT MARRIOTT.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW ARE LOUIS WEINSTEIN, OWNER OF THE HERITAGE BOOK STORE AND PAST PRESIDENT OF THE ANTIQUARIAN BOOKSELLERS ASSOCIATION. AND NICHOLAS BASBANES, AN AUTHOR AND HIGHLY-ACCLAIMED EXPERT ON COLLECTIBLE BOOKS. FORGIVE ME FOR THAT.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> OH, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> SO TELL US, WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF OLD BOOKS? IS THIS A GROWING INTEREST IN FIRST EDITIONS?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE AND IT'S JUST A RELATIVELY SMALL AUDIENCE, BUT EVERY TWO YEARS IN LOS ANGELES, ALL THE GREAT BOOKSELLERS COME TOGETHER IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR 35 YEARS. THEY HAVE 200 EXHIBITORS AND THEY SHOW 15TH CENTURY TO 20TH CENTURY BOOKS AND MANUSCRIPTS. COLLECTING INTERESTS START OUT FROM VERY MODEST MODERN BOOKS PUBLISHED IN THE LAST FIVE OR TEN YEARS TO BOOKS AND MANUSCRIPTS IN THE 15TH CENTURY FROM $50 TO $500,000.

VAL>> $500,000 --

JESS>> -- DOES AGE ALONE MAKE THE BOOKS THAT VALUABLE?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> THAT'S ONE OF THE GREAT MISCONCEPTIONS. EVERY SO OFTEN, PEOPLE THINK THAT AN OLD BOOK IS A RARE BOOK AND THAT A RARE BOOK IS AN OLD BOOK. THAT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN TO BE THE CASE. YOU CAN FIND MANY INSTANCES OF VERY OLD BOOKS THAT NOBODY WANTS AND THEREFORE THEY'RE NOT RARE OR SCARCE --

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> -- BUT A GOOD CLUE IS, IF A BOOK IS OLD, SAY, FIFTY OR A HUNDRED YEARS AGO, AND IT STAYS IN PRINT, THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF THAT TEXT HAS A POTENTIAL TO BE A COLLECTIBLE. THAT'S A TRADE SECRET. I USUALLY DON'T SHARE THAT WITH EVERYONE. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, YOU WERE KIND ENOUGH TO BRING SOME RARE BOOKS. THE OLDEST ONE YOU BROUGHT THAT WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT IS FROM 1843.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> RIGHT. THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST APPEARANCE OF CHARLES DICKENS' "CHRISTMAS CAROL" PRINTED IN LONDON WITH THE ORIGINAL COLOR PLATES BY JOHN LEECH.

VAL>> AND THESE ARE HAND-PAINTED COLOR PLATES --

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> -- THE PLATES WOULD BE HAND-PAINTED. THEY WOULD BE PRE-COLOR PRINTING.

JESS>> THE REMARKABLE THING IS THAT THE COLOR IS STILL SO VIBRANT.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> YES, THE COLORS HOLD UP VERY WELL FROM THAT PERIOD BECAUSE THEY WERE HAND-PAINTED AND IT'S JUST EXCEPTIONAL QUALITY.

VAL>> NOW WHAT WOULD THIS BOOK BE WORTH, DO YOU THINK?

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> WELL, I WOULD DEFER TO RULE ON THAT BECAUSE HE'S THE BOOKSELLER --

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> -- THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. IT VARIES. THIS PARTICULAR COPY IS $12.5 THOUSAND DOLLARS. A REBOUND COPY NOT IN THE ORIGINAL COVER MIGHT BE $5,000 OR $6,000 AND A COPY INSCRIBED BY DICKENS WOULD TRADE HANDS FROM $150,000 TO $200,000 TODAY.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> AND CONDITION, OF COURSE, IS EVERYTHING.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> ABSOLUTELY.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> JOHN FLEMING, ONE OF THE GREAT AMERICAN BOOKSELLERS, SAID THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN BOOK COLLECTING ARE CONDITION, CONDITION, CONDITION. YOU KNOW, OUT IN L.A., THEY SAY LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> BUT JUST BEING LEATHER-BOUND DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT'S IN GOOD CONDITION BECAUSE LEATHER DISINTEGRATES, DOESN'T IT?

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> WELL, LEATHER, ALSO, IF IT'S REBOUND CAN DETRACT FROM THE VALUE.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> ALMOST ALWAYS DOES. THE THEORY IS, YOU WANT THINGS AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THE STATE IN WHICH THEY WERE ISSUED. IF A BOOK WAS ISSUED WITH A DUST JACKET, YOU WANT IT WITH THE DUST JACKET. IF IT WAS ISSUED IN A BOX, YOU WANT IT IN THE BOX. IF IT WAS ISSUED WITH A TISSUE WRAPPER AROUND IT, YOU WANT IT WITH THE TISSUE.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> LOU BROUGHT A COPY OF "THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA" HERE TODAY WHICH HAS A WONDERFUL BRIGHT BLUE DUST JACKET ON IT --

VAL>> -- WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT IN A MINUTE.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> OKAY, BUT THAT'S AN EXAMPLE.

VAL>> RIGHT. THE NEXT ONE IS "DRACULA". IT'S AN 1897 EDITION.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> RIGHT. AGAIN, THAT'S A FIRST APPEARANCE OF THAT. THIS IS IN THE ORIGINAL YELLOW CLOTH WITH THE RED STAMPING. IT SELLS FOR ABOUT $10,000, WHEREAS IF IT WAS REBOUND IN A LATER BINDING, IT WOULD BE ABOUT $3,000 OR $4,000.

JESS>> AND THAT BLOOD STAIN DOESN'T DETRACT FROM ITS VALUE? (LAUGHTER)

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> THAT HAPPENED JUST BEFORE THE SHOW AND I WASN'T -- (LAUGHTER) BUT I THOUGHT IT LOOKED PRETTY AUTHENTIC, SO I LEFT IT THERE.

VAL>> NOW, AUTOGRAPHS ARE ALSO VERY IMPORTANT?

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> RIGHT. IF THE BOOKS IS AUTOGRAPHED, THE VALUE INCREASES SOMETIMES TWO TO TWENTY-FOLD, DEPENDING ON WHETHER IT WAS CONTEMPORARY WITH THE PUBLICATION OR LATER, DEPENDING ON WHETHER IT WAS TO A FAMOUS PERSON OR A KNOWN PERSON, DEPENDING ON HOW INTERESTING THE INSCRIPTION WAS.

VAL>> WELL, FIRST, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN INSCRIPTION AND AN AUTOGRAPH?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> GENERALLY, AN AUTOGRAPH IS SIMPLY THE AUTHOR'S SIGNATURE, "BRAM STOKER", AS OPPOSED TO, "HERE IS MY LAST BOOK. I HOPE YOU LIKE IT AS MUCH AS I ENJOYED WRITING IT" OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT --

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> -- ONE WOULD BE A PRESENTATION.

VAL>> SO WHICH IS PREFERRED?

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE SAY THAT THE AUTOGRAPH IS BETTER. I LIKE THE INSCRIPTION BECAUSE THERE IS MORE. IT'S LIKE, WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE? A LETTER OR A SIGNATURE? A LOT OF BOOKSELLERS WILL DISAGREE WITH ME ON THAT --

JESS>> -- BUT SOME OF THE AUTOGRAPHS ARE MACHINE-PRODUCED, AREN'T THEY?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> WELL, THEN, THOSE ARE VALUELESS. (LAUGHTER) THOSE ARE AUTO-PENS AND THOSE WE PUT IN A SEPARATE PILE CALLED FORGERIES. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> BUT DO COLLECTORS RECOGNIZE WHICH IS WHICH?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> NOT ALL COLLECTORS DO, BUT THAT AUTO-PEN WASN'T INTRODUCED, REALLY, UNTIL THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION, SO IT'S -- THE KIND OF MATERIAL WE DEAL IN IS NOT REALLY --

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> -- BUT THERE ARE SOME FACSIMILE BOOKS. LIKE THERE'S A MARK TWAIN --

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> -- THAT'S AN AUTO-PEN, RIGHT. A FACSIMILE. WE GET A LOT OF CALLS WITH THE SAME EXACT INSCRIPTION ON BOOKS WHEN, GENERALLY, THEY'RE PRINTED ON. IT APPEARS TO BE A HOLOGRAPH OR HANDWRITTEN, BUT IN TRUTH, IT'S A REPRODUCTION.

JESS>> AND IF THE AUTHOR'S NAME IS MISSPELLED, IT'S PRETTY MUCH A PHONY, HUH? (LAUGHTER)

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> IF THE AUTHOR IS MISSPELLED, YEAH, THAT'S BAD.

VAL>> WE HAVE TWO MORE BOOKS TO GET TO. ONE IS "THE HOUND OF THE BASKERVILLES" --

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> -- RIGHT, ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE, 1902, LONDON, THE AUTHOR OF THE "SHERLOCKIAN" BOOKS. AGAIN, THERE ARE TWO COPIES KNOWN IN THE ORIGINAL DUST JACKET OF THIS BOOK. I THINK THE LAST COPY I BOUGHT AT AUCTION FOR A CLIENT. IT WAS $130,000 RANGE. THIS COPY IS $5,000. AGAIN, IT EMPHASIZES THE IMPORTANCE OF THE DUST JACKET.

JESS>> BUT AGE ALONE REALLY DOESN'T MAKE IT, DOES IT?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> YOU'RE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT AGE HERE, AREN'T YOU? (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) JESS HAS A CONCERN ABOUT AGE.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> NO, AGE IS NOT A FACTOR.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> AGE IS A FACTOR IF IT'S AN IMPORTANT BOOK.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE HEMINGWAY "OLD MAN AND THE SEA" WHICH YOU MENTIONED BEFORE.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> EXACTLY.

JESS>> NO SO OLD?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> 1952, FIFTY YEARS OLD --

VAL>> -- BUT THE DUST JACKET.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> THE DUST JACKET MAKES THAT ABOUT A $2,000 BOOK, I WOULD SAY --

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> -- RIGHT, AND WITHOUT THE DUST JACKET, $200.

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> WITHOUT THE DUST JACKET, $200.

JESS>> AND WITH HEMINGWAY'S SIGNATURE?

LOUIS WEINSTEIN>> ABOUT $15,000 TO $20,000.

NICHOLAS BASBANES>> I WOULD SAY $20,000.

VAL>> OH, AMAZING. I WISH WE COULD GO ON BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY GREAT QUESTIONS TO ASK, BUT WE NEED TO CLOSE UP OUR SEGMENT. HOWEVER, PEOPLE CAN CHECK OUT THE ANTIQUARIAN BOOK FAIR -- EXCUSE ME, I SHOULD THANK, FIRST OF ALL, NICHOLAS BASBANES, AND MR. WEINSTEIN. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING. BASBANE'S BOOK ON COLLECTING IS CALLED "PATIENCE & FORTITUDE", SO YOU CAN FIND OUT ALL ABOUT COLLECTING OLD BOOKS FROM THE EXPERT HIMSELF.

JESS>> THE ANTIQUARIAN BOOK FAIR RUNS THROUGH SUNDAY. IT WILL FEATURE THOUSANDS OF COLLECTIBLE BOOKS ON VIRTUALLY EVERY SUBJECT. IT'S TAKING PLACE AT THE LOS ANGELES AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL. YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION AT THE BOOK FAIR WEBSITE, WWW.ABAA.COM.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT. ANTIQUARIAN BOOKSELLERS ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA. THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. WE HAVE A WEEK'S WORTH OF LIFE AND TIMES SHOWS AVAILABLE ON AUDIO. CHECK US OUT ON THE WEB. TAKE CARE.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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