2/11/02

LC020211

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> WILL TAXPAYERS HAVE TO PAY A CANADIAN CORPORATION NEARLY A BILLION DOLLARS BECAUSE CALIFORNIA BANNED A HAZARDOUS CHEMICAL?

SHEILA KUEHL>> DID YOU KNOW THAT ONE INVESTOR IN A FOREIGN COMPANY CAN SUE THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION LAW IN CALIFORNIA? PEOPLE ARE ASTOUNDED ONCE THEY KIND OF GRASP IT.

VAL>> AND HOW SERIOUS IS THE EFFORT TO RECALL MAYOR JAMES HAHN AND CAN AFRICAN-AMERICANS REALLY MAKE THE MAYOR SORRY FOR OPPOSING POLICE CHIEF BERNARD PARKS?

>> THE MAYOR IS GOING TO BE SORRY ABOUT THIS DECISION. OUR COMMUNITY WILL NOT FORGET THIS ANY TIME SOON.

JESS>> FANS OF CRIME NOVELIST, ELMORE LEONARD, HAVE SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO, HIS 37th NOVEL. TONIGHT PATT MORRISON TALKS WITH ELMORE LEONARD ABOUT "TISHOMINGO BLUES".

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.


VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT A LOOK AT AN UNEXPECTED AND PERHAPS COSTLY CONSEQUENCE OF NAFTA, THE FREE TRADE AGREEMENT BETWEEN CANADA, MEXICO AND THE UNITED STATES. IT'S A SMALL CLAUSE CALLED "CHAPTER 11" AND IT COULD FORCE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO PAY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO FOREIGN CORPORATIONS.

VAL>> CALIFORNIA COULD ALSO PAY A BIG PART OF THAT. REMEMBER THE BATTLE OVER THE FUEL ADDITIVE MTBE? WELL, THE CHEMICAL WAS BANNED HERE AFTER IT LEAKED FROM GASOLINE STORAGE TANKS INTO DRINKING WATER. WELL, NOW A CANADIAN COMPANY THAT MAKES THE KEY INGREDIENT OF MTBE CLAIMS THAT CALIFORNIA'S BAN HAS HURT THEM FINANCIALLY AND THEY WANT COMPENSATION. THEY MAY BE ABLE TO GET IT BECAUSE OF NAFTA'S CHAPTER 11 CLAUSE.

JESS>> IN A DOCUMENTARY LAST WEEK, BILL MOYERS REPORTED ON THAT STORY AND TONIGHT WE'RE BRINGING YOU PART OF THAT BROADCAST DEALING WITH CALIFORNIA, MTBE AND A CANADIAN FIRM CALLED METHANEX.

BILL MOYERS>> THE CASE IN CALIFORNIA BEGAN WITH A CHEMICAL, MTBE, THAT WAS ADDED TO GASOLINE TO HELP THE STATE CLEAN UP ITS AIR. BUT MTBE WAS FOUND TO CAUSE CANCER IN LABORATORY ANIMALS AND IN 1995 IT BEGAN TO SHOW UP IN DRINKING WATER.

SHEILA KUEHL>> THIS WAS AN EPIDEMIC OF MTBE SORT OF INFECTION AND THAT CAUSED OUR LEGISLATURE TO WANT TO CONSIDER A TOTAL BAN.

BILL MOYERS>> ON MARCH 25, 1999, CALIFORNIA'S GOVERNOR ORDERED THAT MTBE BE PHASED OUT OF ALL GASOLINE SOLD IN THE STATE. BUT THAT ORDER DIDN'T SIT WELL WITH METHANEX, A CANADIAN COMPANY THAT IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST PRODUCER OF THE KEY INGREDIENT IN MTBE. WITHIN MONTHS, METHANEX INVOKED CHAPTER 11 AND CLAIMED THAT ITS MARKET SHARE AND THEREFORE ITS FUTURE PROFITS WERE BEING TAKEN AWAY, EXPROPRIATED BY THE GOVERNOR'S ACTION. ALLOW US TO SELL MTBE FOR GASOLINE IN CALIFORNIA, THE COMPANY ARGUED, OR PAY US $970 MILLION DOLLARS IN COMPENSATION.

MARTIN WAGNER>> THIS IS INCREDIBLE. THIS IS A FOREIGN CORPORATION COMING IN AND SAYING, FIRST OF ALL, THAT A REGULATION THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF CALIFORNIA, THROUGH NORMAL DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES, HAS DECIDED IS IMPORTANT TO PROTECT HEALTH AND THE ENVIRONMENT, THEY'RE SAYING THAT CALIFORNIA EITHER CAN'T IMPLEMENT THIS PROTECTION OR THAT THEY GET A BILLION DOLLARS. PEOPLE SHOULD BE OUTRAGED BY THAT.

BILL MOYERS>> WHILE NAFTA MAY PROTECT INVESTORS LIKE METHANEX WHO DECLINED TO TALK TO US, IT DOES NOT PROTECT ORDINARY PEOPLE LIKE CHRIS CHRISTIANSEN AND HIS WIFE, CLAUDIA. A DECADE AGO, THEY USED THEIR LIFE SAVINGS TO BUY THE HOME WHERE THEY WOULD RETIRE.

CLAUDIA CHRISTIANSEN>> WITH MTBE, IT'S BEEN TOTALLY DEVASTATING HERE. THE BIGGEST DEVASTATION IS EVERYTHING YOU'VE WORKED FOR IS NOT WORTH ANYTHING NOW. YOU CANNOT SELL THIS PROPERTY BECAUSE IT HAS A CONTAMINATED DOMESTIC WELL. YOU LOSE EVERYTHING YOU'VE PUT INTO A HOME BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SELL AND THAT HAUNTS ME AT NIGHT.

BILL MOYERS>> WHEN THE NAFTA TRIBUNAL MEETS TO CONSIDER THE METHANEX CLAIM, CITIZENS OF CALIFORNIA LIKE THE CHRISTIANSENS WILL NOT BE INVITED NOR WILL THE TAXPAYERS WHO WILL FOOT THE BILL IF THE TRIBUNAL DECIDES IN FAVOR OF THE CANADIAN COMPANY. NAFTA MAKES NO PROVISIONS FOR A FULL APPEAL TO U.S. COURTS AND SETS NO CAPS ON THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGES THAT CAN BE AWARDED CORPORATIONS.

SHEILA KUEHL>> SO, BOOM, YOU KNOW, UNITED STATES TAX MONEY GOES TO METHANEX AND THEN THE UNITED STATES HAS TO DECIDE A COUPLE OF THINGS. DO THEY WANT TO GET THE MONEY BACK FROM CALIFORNIA, WHICH THEY COULD? DO THEY WANT TO HOLD FEDERAL MONEY BACK FROM CALIFORNIA SO THAT THEY KEEP A BILLION DOLLARS THAT CALIFORNIA OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN FOR ITS WELFARE TO WORK PROGRAM, HEALTHY FAMILIES, ANYTHING? WELL, THEY COULD. WOULD THEY LIKE TO CALL THE GOVERNOR AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, YOU OUGHT TO DO AWAY WITH THAT PESKY BAN BECAUSE IT COSTS US A BILLION DOLLARS AND NOW WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO HAPPEN UNDER CHAPTER 11? PERHAPS YOU OUGHT TO REVIEW ALL OF YOUR LAWS THAT MIGHT BE A THREAT TO CHAPTER 11."

WILLIAM GREIDER>> AND MANY OF THE CRITICS THINK THE REALLY ESSENTIAL POINT IS THAT THIS LEGAL SYSTEM HOBBLES THE AUTHORITY OF GOVERNMENT TO ACT IN THE BROADER PUBLIC INTEREST AND, IN FACT, THAT WAS THE IDEA IN THE FIRST PLACE.

JESS>> METHANEX OFFICIALS ARE SUING THE UNITED STATES FOR NEARLY A BILLION DOLLARS. THEY DECLINED TO BE INTERVIEWED FOR THE MOYERS REPORT, BUT A SPOKESMAN FOR THE COMPANY SAYS IT WANTS THE BAN ON MTBE LIFTED. HERE'S WHAT A METHANEX OFFICIAL TOLD THE LOS ANGELES TIMES: "WE WOULD HOPE THE U.S. WOULD LOOK AT WHAT OTHER JURISDICTIONS ARE DOING. MTBE IS NOT A THREAT TO HUMAN HEALTH AND IT IS NOT A THREAT TO THE ENVIRONMENT IF HANDLED CAREFULLY."

VAL>> METHANEX OFFICIALS ALSO SAY THAT GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS APPROVED THE BAN ON MTBE BECAUSE A COMPETING COMPANY, ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND, WAS A CONTRIBUTOR TO HIS CAMPAIGN.

JESS>> JOINING US WITH MORE IS JOE LAWRENCE. HE'S AN ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY FOR THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA. THAT CITY HAD TO CLOSE DOWN HALF ITS WATER SUPPLY BECAUSE OF MTBE CONTAMINATION. AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POTENTIAL COSTS, BUT IN FACT, THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA HAS ALREADY HAD TO PONY UP A LOT OF MONEY TO BUY CLEAN WATER?

JOE LAWRENCE>> CORRECT. SANTA MONICA LOST SOME SEVENTY PERCENT OF ITS DRINKING WATER BECAUSE OF MTBE CONTAMINATION. THE COST TO PURCHASE THE REPLACEMENT WATER RUNS ON THE AVERAGE OF A LITTLE OVER $3 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. AT PRESENT, OIL COMPANIES ARE BEING FORCED TO PICK UP THAT COST, BUT IN THE FUTURE, THE COST TO CLEAN UP THE DRINKING WATER SUPPLY -- BECAUSE SANTA MONICA INTENDS TO CLEAN UP THE DRINKING WATER SUPPLY -- WILL BE MOST LIKELY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

VAL>> NOW, THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA WAS, IN EFFECT, KIND OF THE WHISTLE-BLOWER ON THE MTBE CONTAMINATION. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT NOW THE UNITED STATES MAY, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE TRIBUNAL DECIDES, HAVE TO PAY THIS CORPORATION IN CANADA ALMOST A BILLION DOLLARS BECAUSE YOU SAID -- WELL, NOT JUST YOU, BUT OTHER COMMUNITIES AS WELL -- LOOK AT THIS PROBLEM?

JOE LAWRENCE>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S SAFE TO SAY THAT THE CITY OF SANTA MONICA CONSIDERS THE METHANEX CLAIM TO BE A LITTLE LESS THAN OUTRAGEOUS. IT IS AN AFFRONT TO DEMOCRACY AS WE PRACTICE IT HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND THROUGHOUT THE STATE AND THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY. YOU HAD A POLITICAL PROCESS THAT WAS DONE QUITE OPENLY THAT LED TO THE PROJECT BAN ON MTBE. MTBE IS NOT BANNED AT PRESENT. IT'S SCHEDULED TO BE BANNED THE END OF THIS YEAR.

VAL>> OH, IS THAT RIGHT?

JOE LAWRENCE>> THAT'S CORRECT. GOVERNOR DAVIS IN MARCH OF 1999 ORDERED THE BAN, BUT HE ORDERED A PHASE-OUT AND THE PHASE-OUT IS TO OCCUR AT THE END OF THIS YEAR. AND THAT CAME ABOUT, AS I SAID, THROUGH A QUITE PUBLIC PROCESS THROUGH LEGISLATION THAT WENT THROUGH OPEN DEBATE. THAT LEGISLATION THEN CAUSED THE UC SYSTEM TO EXAMINE THE HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS OF MTBE. THE UC SYSTEM FOUND THAT IT WAS IN FACT A POTENTIAL ENVIRONMENTAL RISK AND A POTENTIAL HUMAN HEALTH RISK --

VAL>> -- SO WHEN METHANEX CLAIMS IT'S NOT, YOU'RE SAYING THERE'S EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY? IT IS A HAZARD?

JOE LAWRENCE>> WELL, MTBE IS A HAZARD IN TWO WAYS. ONE, IT'S A POTENTIAL HUMAN CARCINOGEN AND THERE IS SOME DEBATE --

JESS>> -- BECAUSE IN LABORATORY ANIMALS, IT HAS CAUSED CANCER?

JOE LAWRENCE>> CORRECT. IN LABORATORY ANIMALS, IT HAS CAUSED CANCER, AND THERE'S SOME DEBATE ON THAT. BUT THE OTHER FACET OF MTBE IS THAT IT CAUSES DRINKING WATER TO BECOME UNUSABLE. IN VERY SMALL AMOUNTS, IT MAKES IT SMELL AND TASTE LIKE TURPENTINE, SO THE AVERAGE PERSON WOULD SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO DRINK THIS STUFF" AND YOU WOULD HAVE A VERY HARD TIME CONVINCING SOMEBODY THAT THEIR TASTE AND SMELL SHOULD BE THROWN OUT THE WINDOW AND THAT THEY SHOULD DRINK SOMETHING THAT BELONGS IN A GAS TANK.

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) JOE LAWRENCE, I WISH WE COULD TALK TO YOU MORE, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN, ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY FOR SANTA MONICA.

JOE LAWRENCE>> THANK YOU. PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

VAL>> TOMORROW NIGHT, SAFETY IN L.A.'S PUBLIC HOUSING. IN THE PROJECTS, THE TROUBLE STARTS WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN, SO WHY ARE THEY CUTTING POLICE PATROLS WHERE THEY'RE MOST NEEDED? THE STORY TUESDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> MAYOR JAMES HAHN MAY BE WONDERING WHO HIS FRIENDS ARE THESE DAYS AND INDEED WHETHER HE HAS ANY LEFT. LAST WEEK, HE OUTRAGED AFRICAN-AMERICAN SUPPORTERS BY OPPOSING ANOTHER FIVE-YEAR TERM FOR POLICE CHIEF, BERNARD PARKS.

VAL>> IT DIDN'T TAKE LONG FOR SOME OF HAHN'S OLD SUPPORTERS TO START TALKING ABOUT A RECALL. AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN PARTICULAR SAY THEY FEEL BETRAYED BY HAHN'S STAND AGAINST CHIEF PARKS AND NOW SOME HAVE ALREADY LAUNCHED AN EFFORT TO GET RID OF THE MAYOR AND FIND A NEW CANDIDATE FOR THE OFFICE, MAYBE EVEN CHIEF PARKS HIMSELF.

>> THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS INSULTED. WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS A DIRECT AFFRONT. WE BELIEVE IT'S A BREACH AND A VIOLATION OF THE COMMUNITY TRUST THAT WE HAVE GIVEN TO JIMMY HAHN, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO THINK THAT THIS IS A BAD DECISION FOR ALL OF LOS ANGELES.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW ARE CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CONSTANCE RICE, WHO'S BEEN A FREQUENT CRITIC OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT; KPFK RADIO COMMENTATOR AND AUTHOR, EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON; AND SYNDICATED COLUMNIST, ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD, WHOSE WORK APPEARS LOCALLY IN THE LOS ANGELES SENTINEL.

MS. RICE, IS THIS A RACIAL ISSUE?

CONSTANCE RICE>> LOOK, THERE'S A TREMENDOUS IMPACT IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY ON THIS DECISION BECAUSE OF THE IDENTIFICATION WITH CHIEF PARKS AS A VERY CHARISMATIC AND COMPELLING LEADER. BUT THIS IS NOT A RACIAL ISSUE. THIS IS A CITYWIDE ISSUE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF POLICING IN THIS CITY AND WHAT KIND OF LEADERSHIP AND WHAT MODEL OF POLICING THIS CITY IS GOING TO TAKE. IS THE FALLOUT AND THE SORT OF HIT IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW AND THE REACTION IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW? ABSOLUTELY. AND WHILE IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE, I THINK THE ISSUE HAS GOT TO BE BROADENED TO WHAT KIND OF POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE WE HAVING IN THE FUTURE FOR THE 21ST CENTURY.

VAL>> BUT, CONNIE, YOU SUPPORT HAHN'S OPPOSITION TO PARKS?

CONSTANCE RICE>> I AGREE WITH THE MAYOR'S DECISION NOT TO SUPPORT THE REAPPOINTMENT OF CHIEF PARKS FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS. CHIEF PARKS IS AN INCREDIBLE OFFICER AND AN INCREDIBLE CHIEF, BUT FOR A MODEL OF POLICING THAT THE CHRISTOPHER COMMISSION SAID WAS PASSED, THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT HE HAS GREAT INTEGRITY. THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT HE'S EXTRAORDINARILY TALENTED. I WOULD EVEN CALL HIM BRILLIANT. AND I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE. THERE'S A LOT OF INTEGRITY TO CHIEF PARKS. BUT CHIEF PARKS IS NOT THE ISSUE.

THE ISSUE IS DO YOU FULLY EMBRACE THE COMPLETE MANDATE OF THE CHRISTOPHER COMMISSION REFORMS? AND THERE'S A LEGITIMATE VIEW THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE ENFORCED AND COMPLETELY EMBRACED. BUT WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE REFORM OF INTERNAL AFFAIRS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SYSTEMIC VIEW OF LAPD'S PROBLEMS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHETHER WHISTLE-BLOWERS GET ATTACKED STILL. THOSE CORE-TO-THE-BONE ISSUES ARE STILL THE SAME AND I THINK WHAT MAYOR HAHN IS SAYING IS HE WANTS A CHIEF WHO SEES HIS VISION OF LAPD AS OPPOSED TO WHAT CHIEF PARKS SEES.

VAL>> ANTHONY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? DO YOU AGREE?

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> WELL, I AGREE WITH CONNIE TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS IS NOT AS SIMPLISTIC AS A BLACK CHIEF BEING OUSTED AND A BLACK COMMUNITY BEING OUTRAGED. BUT I DO THINK THE OUTRAGE COMING FROM THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY IS CENTERED IN THE FACT THAT THE REFORM PROCESS IS NOW ADVANCING. I THINK THAT CHIEF PARKS IS FAMILIAR TO THE COMMUNITY. I THINK TRUST IS UP IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY AFTER ALMOST FIFTY YEARS OF ANTAGONIZING DISTRUST OF THE LAPD. YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE THE FACT THAT COMPLAINTS HAVE DOUBLED UNDER CHIEF PARKS' ADMINISTRATION IN JUST TWO YEARS. YOU'VE SEEN --

VAL>> -- THAT'S A GOOD SIGN?

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> THAT'S A GOOD SIGN BECAUSE IT MEANS ACCOUNTABILITY. IT'S A PROCESS THAT'S IN PLACE THAT NOW ALLOWS PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT THEY HAVE BEEN ABUSED BY THE LAPD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A RECOURSE. I THINK WHAT WE'RE REALLY SEEING HERE, THOUGH, IS THAT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY SUPPORTED JAMES HAHN CLOSE TO SEVENTY PERCENT AND THAT DEAL WAS ON THE TABLE THAT BERNARD PARKS --

VAL>> -- IT WAS UNDERSTOOD THAT HE --

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> -- IT WAS UNDERSTOOD AND, IN SOME INSTANCES, IT WASN'T INFERRED, IT WAS STATED THAT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY, IF THIS CITY WAS TO PROGRESS, IT NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO TRUST THE LAPD AND THE COMMUNITY FEELS BETRAYED. IT FEELS THAT JAMES HAHN HAS GONE BACK ON A PROMISE.

JESS>> BUT WHERE IS THE POLICE UNION IN THIS IN TERMS OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, I THINK THE POLICE PROTECTIVE LEAGUE IN THIS CASE PROBABLY HAS NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

JESS>> YOU BOTH ARE ON THE SAME SIDE ON THIS ISSUE?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, YOU KNOW, POLITICS MAKES STRANGE BEDFELLOWS. IN THIS CASE, WE'RE SEEING IT. BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THAT. YOU KNOW, I KEEP HEARING THIS AFRICAN-AMERICAN "COMMUNITY". THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, YOU HAVE A DIVERSE RANGE OF VIEWS AND OPINIONS IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN "COMMUNITIES", SO I THINK WE MAKE A MISTAKE SOMETIMES WHEN WE THINK THERE'S A MONOLITH HERE, THAT WE ALL THINK THE SAME WAY. CONNIE RICE HAS AN OPINION ABOUT PARKS, ABOUT THE POLICE PROTECTIVE LEAGUE, ABOUT THE LAPD, ABOUT REFORM. SAMAD HAS AN OPINION ABOUT IT, OTHERS HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT IT. IT'S SUCH A DIVERSE --

VAL>> -- WHAT'S YOUR FEELING? DO YOU AGREE WITH HAHN'S DECISION? DO YOU DISAGREE? DO YOU SUPPORT PARKS?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> I'VE SAID THIS ALL ALONG. I THINK THAT PARKS SHOULD GET A SECOND TERM, BUT THERE'S A HUGE, HUGE CAVEAT THERE. I THINK THERE HAS TO BE IRONCLAD GUARANTEES AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE CONNIE IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT THAT HE'S GOT TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE A LOT FASTER AND A LOT FURTHER ON THE CHRISTOPHER COMMISSION REFORM WITH SOME SPECIFIC TIMETABLES. I THINK WE GOT TO LOOK -- WE TALKED ABOUT THIS IN THE MARGARET MITCHELL SHOOTING, OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS, DISCIPLINE, THAT WHOLE PROCESS. I'M NOT SATISFIED WITH THAT.

SAMAD MENTIONED COMPLAINTS BEFORE. THAT COULD BE GOOD AND THAT COULD BE BAD. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO COMPLAIN, NOT ENOUGH TO HAVE A VOICE. WHAT'S THE POLICE DEPARTMENT GOING TO DO ONCE A COMPLAINT IS IN? THESE ARE ISSUES THAT ARE ON THE TABLE. I'M NOT SATISFIED THAT CHIEF PARKS COMPLETELY HAS ANSWERED THEM. IF HE CAN DO THAT TO MY SATISFACTION, AND I SUSPECT OTHERS, THEN, YES, I THINK A SECOND TERM WOULD BE MANDATED. AT THIS POINT, QUITE FRANKLY, THE RECORD IS MIXED. IT'S STILL UP IN THE AIR.

JESS>> AND THERE'S ANOTHER ISSUE THAT'S CERTAINLY GOING TO BE ON THE TABLE. IT'S A MOVEMENT ALREADY UNDERWAY AND THAT IS THE RECALL OF MAYOR HAHN. IS THAT A SERIOUS MOVE?

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> WELL, I THINK ANY CONSIDERATION TO ADDRESS SOMEONE WHO HAS BETRAYED YOU IS A CONSIDERATION. I DON'T THINK THAT THAT SHOULD BE THE FOREMOST CONSIDERATION. I THINK THAT THERE WILL BE RECONSIDERATION ON THE PART OF MAYOR HAHN ONCE HE UNDERSTANDS THE LEVEL OF DISCONTENT AROUND THIS DECISION.

JESS>> WHAT CAN HE DO?

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> WELL, I THINK --

JESS>> -- CAN HE SAY, "I'VE CHANGED MY MIND"?

ANTHONY ASADULLAH SAMAD>> I THINK HE'S UNDERMINED THE POLICE COMMISSION'S ABILITY TO FAIRLY EVALUATE CHIEF PARKS, PARTICULARLY CONSISTENT WITH THE CITY CHARTER'S VERY DETAILED MEASUREMENT OF THE PERFORMANCE OF THE CHIEF. I THINK HE'S PREMATURE IN COMING OUT AND SAYING THAT HE'S NOT SUPPORTING. HE SHOULD HAVE LET CHIEF PARKS' RECORD AND THE EVALUATION SPEAK FOR ITSELF AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN --

VAL>> -- CONNIE, REAL QUICKLY, THIS RECALL EFFORT. GOOD IDEA? BAD IDEA? WHAT WOULD YOU --

CONSTANCE RICE>> -- VERY BAD IDEA AND IT CAN'T BE DONE. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO DO A RECALL. IT'S EXPENSIVE AND YOU THINK INCUMBENTS WRITE LAWS TO KICK THEM OUT, YOU'RE JOKING. (LAUGHTER) --

JESS>> -- OR COULD WE HAVE THE STRANGE BEDFELLOWS THAT EARL TALKED ABOUT IF YOU GET VALLEY SECESSIONISTS JOINING IN?

CONSTANCE RICE>> NO, NO. I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE ANY RECALL OF MAYOR HAHN. BUT GOING BACK TO AN ISSUE, ACTUALLY I AGREE --

VAL>> -- REAL QUICKLY.

CONSTANCE RICE>> -- WITH ANTHONY. IT REALLY IS AN ISSUE OF THE FUTURE OF THE LEADERSHIP. YES, CHIEF PARKS HAS ACHIEVED A LOT OF THINGS, BUT THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION HERE. THE QUESTION IS -- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CHRISTOPHER COMMISSION? WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT LEAD OFFICERS, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A COMPUTER SYSTEM. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE FULL MANDATE TO COMPLETELY TRANSFORM FROM PARAMILITARY TO COMMUNITY POLICING. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. I'M NOT SURE CHIEF PARKS HAS EVER SHOWN ANY REAL EMBRACE OF THAT AND THAT'S WHY I THINK HAHN WANTS A CHANGE.

VAL>> I WISH WE COULD GET TO YOU, EARL. WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE YOU BACK. THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR BEING WITH US AND SHARING YOUR OPINIONS. APPRECIATE IT.

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VAL>> HIS FAVORITE WORLD IS POPULATED BY RACKETEERS, HIT MEN, GAMBLERS AND FALL GUYS. THAT SHADY COMPANY, HOWEVER, HAS SERVED WRITER, ELMORE LEONARD, VERY WELL, THRUSTING HIM TO THE TOP OF THE TIER OF CRIME NOVELISTS.

JESS>> LEONARD'S FANS WILL BE GLAD TO KNOW HE HAS A NEW BOOK OUT, HIS 37TH, AND IT'S GETTING GREAT REVIEWS. PATT MORRISON IS HERE TO TALK WITH ELMORE LEONARD ABOUT "TISHOMINGO BLUES".

PATT>> ELMORE LEONARD, AUTHOR OF 37 BOOKS, THE LATEST OF THEM IS "TISHOMINGO BLUES". IT'S GOT THE CIVIL WAR, IT'S GOT LYNCHING, IT'S GOT SEX AND DRUGS. YOU CAN'T GET MORE AMERICAN THAN THIS.

ELMORE LEONARD>> IT HAS A MODERN INTERPRETATION OF THE CIVIL WAR. LET'S MAKE THAT CLEAR, THAT IT'S A REENACTMENT. (LAUGHTER) I THINK THAT THAT'S THE BIG FINISH FOR THE BOOK, THAT ALL THESE DISPARATE ELEMENTS OF THESE UNRELATED CHARACTERS, YOU WONDER WHAT ARE THEY DOING? WHAT ARE THEY DOING IN THIS STORY? THEY'RE ALL GOING TO END UP IN THE CIVIL WAR BATTLE REENACTMENT WITH THE BAD GUYS ON ONE SIDE AND THE OTHER BAD GUYS --

PATT>> -- THE WORST GUYS ON THE OTHER SIDE. (LAUGHTER)

ELMORE LEONARD>> YEAH.

PATT>> YOU HAVE CHARACTERS THAT BEGIN WITH AN ITINERATE HIGH-DIVER WHICH IS ONE OF THOSE ONLY-IN-AMERICA CHARACTERS. BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE US CARE SO MUCH AS YOU REALLY DO ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT WE WOULDN'T WANT TO LIVE NEXT DOOR TO?

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, I WAS ASKED THAT ONCE BEFORE BY SOMEONE WHO HAD NOT READ ONE OF MY BOOKS BEFORE. HE SAID, "I CARE ABOUT THIS. WHY DO I CARE ABOUT THIS BAD GUY?" AND I SAID, "BECAUSE I DO." SO THERE IT IS. IT'S THE WAY IT'S PRESENTED. I HAVE KIND OF AN AFFECTION FOR ALL OF THEM, EVEN THE BAD GUYS. I'LL AT LEAST FEEL SORRY FOR THEM BECAUSE, FOR THE MOST PART, THEY'RE RATHER STUPID OR ELSE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN INTO CRIME, YOU KNOW? BUT I TRY AND SEE THE HUMAN SIDE OF ALL OF THEM.

PATT>> SO YOU GET ATTRACTED TO THEM AND YOU HAVE A CHARACTER LIKE CHARLIE HOGUE WHO YOU'VE REVIVED FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS NOVEL FROM A SHORT STORY.

ELMORE LEONARD>> RIGHT.

PATT>> HE'S AN EX-PRO BASEBALL PLAYER WHO MANAGES TO WORK BASEBALL AND HIMSELF INTO EVERY CONVERSATION. YOU'VE GOT AN EX-SHERIFF WHO BECOMES A FELON AND GETS OUT AGAIN AND ACTS FELONIOUSLY AGAIN. A FELLOW WHO'S GOT A GIRLFRIEND IN THE REENACTMENT WHO WEARS HOOP SKIRTS AND HE SAYS, "DON'T WEAR ANYTHING UNDERNEATH THEM." (LAUGHTER)

ELMORE LEONARD>> YEAH, AND HE'S A MANUFACTURER. HE'S THE ONE WHO ROBERT TAYLOR, WHO IS THE BLACK GANGSTER FROM DETROIT, APPROACHES WITH A PHOTOGRAPH OF A BLACK MAN LYNCHED HANGING FROM A BRIDGE AND SAYS, "THAT'S MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER HANGING THERE AND THAT MAN STANDING UP ON THE BRIDGE, THAT'S YOUR GRANDFATHER."

PATT>> THESE ARE DISPARATE ELEMENTS OF AMERICA. THE REENACTMENT CROWD, THE DETROIT MOB, THE DIXIE MAFIA, BLACK AMERICA. WHAT POSSESSED YOU, I SUPPOSE IS THE BETTER WORD, TO BRING THEM TOGETHER IN A BOOK LIKE THIS?

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, I START WITH ONE. I STARTED WITH THE HIGH-DIVER OUT OF NOWHERE. I WAS STILL WRITING "PAGAN BABIES", AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN I JUST THOUGHT OF THE HIGH-DIVER, BUT THOUGHT HE COULD BE A GOOD CHARACTER. HE LIVES ON THE EDGE, HE ATTRACTS YOUNG GIRLS, HE'S KIND OF A DAREDEVIL. LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS. BUT THEN, OKAY, NOW, WHERE IS HE GOING TO DO HIS DIVING? WELL, HOW ABOUT MISSISSIPPI? I WANTED TO DO A SOUTHERN STATE FOR A CHANGE.

THEN I READ ABOUT THE DIXIE MAFIA AND I READ ABOUT CIVIL WAR BATTLE REENACTMENTS AND I READ THE BOOK "CONFEDERATES IN THE ATTIC" AND I'D GOTTEN DEEPER INTO REENACTMENTS AND WENT TO SEE A COUPLE OF THEM. FINALLY, THIS ALL STARTS TO WORK TOGETHER. I GET ABOUT A HUNDRED PAGES INTO A BOOK BEFORE I BEGIN TO KNOW WHAT IT'S ABOUT BECAUSE I DON'T USE AN OUTLINE. I DON'T FOLLOW ANY KIND OF A GUIDE. I MAKE IT UP AS I GO ALONG BECAUSE IT'S MORE FUN THAT WAY. I'VE BEEN DOING IT LONG ENOUGH THAT I KNOW A PLOT CAN COME OUT OF THIS.

PATT>> SO YOU LEARNED WHERE THINGS ARE GOING JUST BARELY AHEAD OF THE MOMENT THAT YOUR CHARACTERS DO?

ELMORE LEONARD>> THAT'S RIGHT. AND WHEN THE REVIEWER SAYS, WELL, I KNEW THREE CHAPTERS BEFORE THE END HOW IT WAS GOING TO END, HE KNEW MORE THAN I DID.

PATT>> (LAUGHTER) WHICH IS WHY THEY SAY OF CRITICS SOMETIMES THAT THEY'RE BETTER AT BEING CRITICS THAN AT WRITING, THAT THEY HAVE NEVER IMMERSED THEMSELVES IN THE LATTER TASK. AS FAR AS WRITING GOES, YOUR BOOKS ARE DIALOG-DRIVEN AND THAT'S A VERY CONTEMPORARY SORT OF THING TO DO. WHY DOES IT RESONATE WITH THE CHARACTERS AND WHY DOES IT WORK SO WELL WITH READERS? THERE'S ALMOST NO INTERIORITY, NO REFLECTION IN SOME OF THESE GUYS.

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, THERE IS SOME. BUT I DON'T WANT TO ANALYZE. I DON'T WANT THE READER TO BE AWARE OF ME. IF I WERE A LITERARY WRITER, IF I HAD THE LANGUAGE TO BE A LITERARY WRITER, THE AUTHOR WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING, I WOULD DO IT OR AT LEAST I WOULD HAVE TRIED TO DO IT AT ONE TIME. BUT I LEARNED EARLY ON WHAT I CAN DO AND WHAT I CAN'T DO AND I DON'T HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO TELL THE STORY MYSELF IN THE STYLE OF THE LITERARY WRITER.

PATT>> AND YET IT FEELS LIKE YOU'VE PARED AWAY ALL THE EXCESS.

ELMORE LEONARD>> I HOPE I HAVE BECAUSE I DO TRY TO LEAVE OUT THE PARTS THAT PEOPLE SKIP WHEN THEY'RE READING BOOKS.

PATT>> YOU HAVE TEN RULES FOR WRITERS. GIVE US A COUPLE OF THEM, BESIDES TRANSPARENCY.

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, THE FIRST ONE IS NEVER, NEVER OPEN A BOOK WITH "WEATHER". IT'S --

PATT>> -- NO "DARK AND STORMY NIGHT"? THE CLASSIC?

ELMORE LEONARD>> NO. NEVER OPEN WITH A PROLOGUE. PROLOGUE IS ONLY A BACK STORY. YOU CAN DROP THAT IN ANYWHERE. ALWAYS USE THE VERB "SAID" TO INDICATE DIALOG BECAUSE THE LINE OF DIALOG IS THE CHARACTERS. THE VERB -- AND PLEASE DON'T MODIFY IT WITH AN ADVERB -- THOSE ARE THE WRITER'S WORDS AND THEY INTERFERE. THEY GET IN THE WAY. MARY MCCARTHY WRITES A LINE OF DIALOG AND AT THE END OF IT IS, "SHE ASSEVERATED". WELL, YOU WANT TO JUST --

PATT>> -- OR "EJACULATED", THE OLD WORD FOR EXPRESSION. (LAUGHTER)

ELMORE LEONARD>> YEAH. DO YOU WANT TO KEEP GOING OR DO YOU WANT TO GO LOOK IT UP OR, YOU KNOW, IT STOPS YOU COLD.

PATT>> THE STYLE OF WRITING SUITS THE PERIOD, SUITS THESE TIMES, THOUGH, DON'T YOU THINK?

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, IT DOES BECAUSE A FEW BOOKS AGO, I WROTE "CUBA LIBRE" AND I THINK THE STYLE IS STILL THERE. IT'S JUST THAT THE CONTEMPORARY SOUNDS ARE NOT THERE. I DON'T GO IN FOR SLANG AS MUCH AS I DO THE WAY PEOPLE TALK, THE WORDS THEY LEAVE OUT, THE RHYTHM OF CONTEMPORARY SPEECH.

PATT>> DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME LETTING GO OF THESE CHARACTERS WHEN YOU'RE DONE?

ELMORE LEONARD>> YES, I DO, AND I SEE THEM FOR SEVERAL WEEKS JUST KIND OF SITTING AROUND WAITING, WONDERING IF THEY'RE GOING TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. (LAUGHTER)

PATT>> (LAUGHTER) TAKE A NUMBER.

ELMORE LEONARD>> RIGHT. BUT IT'S FUN. THE WAY I DO IT IS REALLY THE MOST SATISFYING THING THAT I CAN DO. YOU KNOW, JUST TO SIT THERE BY MYSELF ALL DAY -- AND I DO, I WORK ALL DAY -- AND COME UP WITH A BOOK EVERY YEAR.

PATT>> ELMORE LEONARD, IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT IT'S SATISFYING FOR YOU BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY IS FOR US. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ELMORE LEONARD>> WELL, THANK YOU. I'VE ENJOYED THIS VERY MUCH. IT'S A VERY NICE CONVERSATION.

JESS>> AGAIN, ELMORE LEONARD'S LATEST BOOK IS TITLED "TISHOMINGO BLUES, A NOVEL".

VAL>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. REMEMBER, YOU CAN CHECK TRANSCRIPTS OR LISTEN TO AUDIO OF OUR RECENT SHOWS ON OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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