2/15/02

LC020215

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> IT'S A DANGEROUS DRUG, BUT YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO BE GETTING THE WORD AND THE CONSEQUENCES CAN BE FATAL.

>> MANY BELIEVE ECSTASY, OR "E", IS THE PERFECT HIGH THAT IS PERFECTLY SAFE. IT'S WHAT JIMMY LYONS THOUGHT WHEN HE DECIDED TO TRY IT FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> THE POLICE OFFICER SAID HE HAD VERY BAD NEWS FOR ME AND THEN HE TOLD ME MY SON PASSED AWAY AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING.

VAL>> YOU'LL MEET A WRITER WITH SOME UNCONVENTIONAL IDEAS ABOUT RACE. HE SAYS THIS IS A GREAT TIME TO BE A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA AND HE'S URGING OTHER MEN LIKE HIM TO REALIZE THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE RAP STARS OR PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES TO SUCCEED. A CANDID LOOK AT COLOR FROM AUTHOR, ELLIS COSE, OF NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE.

JESS>> AND A STORY ABOUT MOVIE MOGULS BEHAVING BADLY HALF A CENTURY AGO. IT WAS A TROUBLED TIME WHEN THE FEAR OF COMMUNISM TOOK A HUGE TOLL ON THE FILM INDUSTRY. TONIGHT WE'LL LOOK AT SOME FILMS THAT WERE BLACKLISTED DURING THE "RED SCARE". IT ALSO FORCED SOME SCREENWRITERS TO WORK UNDER ASSUMED NAMES.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

SOME YOUNG PEOPLE CLAIM IT IS THE PERFECT HIGH AND THEY'RE USING IT IN RECORD NUMBERS IN SPITE OF ALL THE WARNINGS ABOUT THE DANGERS INVOLVED. THE DRUG IS ECSTASY AND IT'S BECOME HUGELY POPULAR AT DANCE PARTIES KNOWN AS RAVES.

VAL>> ACCORDING TO A NEW STUDY, WHILE THE USE OF DRUGS SUCH AS MARIJUANA OR COCAINE HAVE LEVELED OFF, THE USE OF ECSTASY HAS SKYROCKETED IN THE PAST YEAR, PARTLY BECAUSE YOUNG PEOPLE THINK ECSTASY IS SAFE. TONIGHT SOME EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY IN THIS REPORT FROM DERRICK SHORE. HE'S A CORRESPONDENT WITH CHANNEL ONE, A NEWS NETWORK THAT BROADCASTS TO SCHOOLS ACROSS AMERICA.

DERRICK SHORE>> FROM ALL-NIGHT RAVES TO LATE-NIGHT DANCE CLUBS, THE PARTY SCENE THESE DAYS IS ABOUT TECHNO-MUSIC, LASER LIGHTS AND NONSTOP DANCING. IT'S A VISCERAL EXPERIENCE THAT MANY YOUNG PEOPLE SAY IS MADE BETTER WITH ECSTASY.

>> IT'S VERY WIDESPREAD, EXTREMELY WIDESPREAD, AND JUST ABOUT EVERY CLUB YOU GO TO THERE WILL BE ECSTASY EVERYWHERE.

>> AFTER YOU DO IT ONCE OR TWICE, IT'S LIKE IT'S YOUR HAPPINESS AND IT'S REALLY HARD TO PULL AWAY FROM IT.

DERRICK SHORE>> A STIMULANT AND HALLUCINOGEN, MANY BELIEVE ECSTASY, OR "E", IS THE PERFECT HIGH THAT IS PERFECTLY SAFE. IT'S WHAT JIMMY LYONS THOUGHT WHEN HE DECIDED TO TRY IT FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> HE SAID ONCE THAT YOU CAN'T DIE OF "E". THERE'S NO WAY. HE TOLD ME THAT YOU CANNOT -- THERE'S NO WAY YOU CAN DIE OF IT.

DERRICK SHORE>> A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT FROM LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK, JIMMY WASN'T A TYPICAL TEENAGER. HE TOOK LIFE SERIOUSLY AND WORKED TWO JOBS TO HELP SUPPORT HIS MOM AND YOUNGER SIBLINGS.

>> FOR A YOUNG KID, HE TOOK LIFE A LITTLE BIT TOO SERIOUS, YOU KNOW? HE WAS ALWAYS "GOING TO HAVE TO DO THIS, MOM" AND "GOT TO GET THAT STRAIGHTENED OUT" AND I GUESS HE JUST WANTED TO ESCAPE FOR ONE NIGHT.

DERRICK SHORE>> ON JANUARY 23, 1999, JIMMY WANTED TO CELEBRATE. HE HAD JUST TURNED 18 AND COULD FINALLY GET INTO A NIGHTCLUB, SO HE MADE PLANS WITH HIS FRIENDS, TOMMY BURCH AND JOEY [GRACCE], TO GO TO THE TUNNEL, A POPULAR DANCE CLUB IN AN OLD WAREHOUSE IN NEW YORK CITY.

>> WE WERE SUPPOSEDLY GOING TO TAKE HIM OUT FOR, YOU KNOW, HIS 18TH BIRTHDAY. HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME OUT, YEH, TIME TO PARTY, GO OUT, HAVE A GOOD TIME, HANG OUT WITH THE BIG BOYS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO SAY.

DERRICK SHORE>> THAT NIGHT, JIMMY ALSO PLANNED TO TRY ECSTASY FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> HE HAS AN 18TH BIRTHDAY. HE WANTED TO GO ABOVE AND BEYOND THE BIRTHDAY. YOU KNOW, HAVE HIMSELF A REAL GREAT TIME WHILE HE WAS AT THE TUNNEL. THAT WAS REALLY THE ONLY TIME HE SPECIFIED WHEN HE WANTED TO DO IT AND WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME.

DERRICK SHORE>> ONCE INSIDE THE CLUB, IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF MINUTES BEFORE JIMMY, TOMMY AND JOEY WERE APPROACHED BY PEOPLE SELLING DRUGS.

>> THAT NIGHT IN PARTICULAR, I REMEMBER IT TOOK US LIKE, WHAT, THREE MINUTES BY THE TIME WE GOT IN THERE TO GO GET OUR UP PILLS.

DERRICK SHORE>> THEY PURCHASED ECSTASY TABLETS AND TOMMY BOUGHT A VIAL OF KETAMINE. AS JIMMY AND JOEY PARTIED IN THE TUNNEL, AT SOME POINT DURING THE NIGHT, THEY BECAME SEPARATED. IN THE CHAOTIC ATMOSPHERE OF THE CLUB, THEY WERE NEVER ABLE TO FIND EACH OTHER.

>> I WENT TO THE FIRST COP I COULD FIND AND, YOU KNOW, SAID, "I LOST MY FRIEND."

DERRICK SHORE>> SOME WITNESSES SAY THAT NIGHT, JIMMY WAS ACTING ERRATIC AND COLLAPSED OUTSIDE OF THE CLUB. BY THE TIME AN AMBULANCE CAME, IT WAS TOO LATE.

>> ONCE IT STARTED GETTING LATE, I STARTED TO WORRY, BECAUSE JIMMY NEVER NOT CAME HOME. HE HAD A BEEPER, SO I BEEPED HIM AND HE DIDN'T CALL ME BACK, WHICH IS THE FIRST TIME EVER, WHICH MADE ME VERY NERVOUS.

DERRICK SHORE>> AT 11:00 A.M. THE NEXT MORNING, JIMMY'S MOTHER CALLED THE POLICE.

>> THE POLICE OFFICER SAID HE HAD VERY BAD NEWS FOR ME. I THOUGHT, GOD, THIS KID'S REALLY IN TROUBLE AND I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT HE DID. THEN HE TOLD ME MY SON PASSED AWAY AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING. I JUST SAID, "HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S MY SON?" AND HE SAID THAT HE HAD JIMMY'S LICENSE. JIMMY WAS ALWAYS LOSING HIS WALLET, SO I THOUGHT IT CAN'T BE AND I JUST KEPT BEEPING HIM THINKING HE WAS GOING TO RETURN THE CALL.

>> ALL AMPHETAMINES -- AND IN THIS SENSE, ECSTASY'S LIKE OTHER AMPHETAMINES -- INCREASE OR INTERFERE WITH THE BODY'S HEAT REGULATING SYSTEM.

DERRICK SHORE>> ACCORDING TO THE CORONER'S REPORT, JIMMY DIED OF AN OVERDOSE OF ECSTASY AND KETAMINE. IT ALSO SAID --

>> THAT FOUR HOURS AFTER HE WAS DEAD, HE WAS STILL RUNNING A FEVER OF 104. THAT THE LAST FEW HOURS OF MY SON'S LIFE, HE SUFFERED SEVERE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL ANGUISH. FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, HE WAS CONVULSING AND FOAMING FROM THE MOUTH.

DERRICK SHORE>> FOR JIMMY'S FRIENDS, HIS DEATH WAS A SHOCK THAT IS STILL HARD TO ACCEPT EVEN A YEAR LATER.

>> IT WAS JUST LIKE HAVING A PIECE OF MY HEART RIPPED OUT AND IT STILL HURTS TO THIS DAY.

>> OH, YOU'RE RIGHT. CRACK KILLS. DON'T BLOW COKE. DON'T SMOKE POT. HEROINE'S NO GOOD. THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER. YOU DON'T HEAR NOTHING ABOUT "E". YOU DON'T HEAR NOTHING. YOU'D NEVER IMAGINE, NEVER IMAGINE. THOSE ROTTEN PILLS.

>> SCARY.

DERRICK SHORE>> KIDS LIKE JIMMY LYONS --

>> WE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE HERE RIGHT NOW DOING THIS. WE SHOULD BE OUT WITH HIM. WE SHOULD BE OUT GOING TO THE POOL HALL AGAIN. YOU KNOW, HAVING A GOOD TIME LIKE WE USED TO AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> EVERYBODY THINKS, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG, YOU'RE INVINCIBLE, BUT YOU'RE NOT. THE BOTTOM LINE IS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I WANT MY SON TO COME HOME, HE NEVER IS GOING TO AGAIN. ONCE IT'S DONE, IT'S DONE. THE ONLY THING I CAN DO NOW IS VISIT MY SON'S GRAVESITE AND LOOK AT PICTURES.

JESS>> WE'RE JOINED NOW BY DR. GREG THOMPSON, WHO'S DIRECTOR OF THE LOS ANGELES REGIONAL DRUG INFORMATION CENTER AND ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT USC. IS THIS AN ABERRATION, THAT ONE DEATH WE'VE CHRONICLED THERE, OR IS ECSTASY REALLY THAT DANGEROUS?

GREG THOMPSON>> IN LOS ANGELES, WE'VE SEEN NUMEROUS, NUMEROUS DEATHS JUST THIS YEAR ALONE FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED FROM CARDIAC DISTURBANCES FROM THEIR CENTRAL CORE TEMPERATURES GOING UP, AND FROM WHAT THEY CALL PSYCHIATRIC REASONS FROM THE HALLUCINOGENIC PART OF THIS DRUG WHERE THEY DO DUMB THINGS WHEN THEY'RE UNDER THE INFLUENCE LIKE JUMP OFF BUILDINGS, ETC.

VAL>> SO HOW CAN THE WORD GET OUT? BECAUSE IT IS SO POPULAR AND THE EFFECT IS SUCH A POPULAR ONE. IT'S CALLED THE LOVE DRUG, RIGHT?

GREG THOMPSON>> IT'S CALLED THE LOVE DRUG. IT WAS IN THE 60'S AND 70'S WHEN IT MADE ITS FIRST ROUND AROUND, IT WAS CALLED THAT, BECAUSE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BRING OUT THESE FEELINGS OF WARMTH AND HUGGINESS IN A PERSON. THAT'S WHAT THE KIDS WANT TO TAKE IT FOR. THEY DON'T REALIZE THERE'S A MAJOR DOWNSIDE TO IT.

VAL>> SO HOW'S THE WORD GETTING OUT?

GREG THOMPSON>> WELL, THE WORD'S ON THE INTERNET AND THE INTERNET PEOPLE ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC. THERE ISN'T SCIENTIFIC STUFF ON THE INTERNET. IT'S ALL -- IF YOU GO ON THE INTERNET AND LOOK, YOU'LL FIND TONS OF WEBSITES THAT ARE DEVOTED BY THE USERS AND WHY IT'S A GOOD THING TO DO, SO THE KIDS --

JESS>> -- WHO ARE THE SUPPLIERS?

GREG THOMPSON>> THE SUPPLIERS, BY AND LARGE, ARE NOT YOUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBORS LIKE YOU THINK OF BEING WITH OTHER DRUGS THAT WE HAVE HERE WITH AMPHETAMINES --

JESS>> -- IT'S NOT MANUFACTURED IN A BATHTUB?

GREG THOMPSON>> IT'S NOT MANUFACTURED, IT'S NOT PHARMACEUTICALLY MANUFACTURED. THESE ARE BIG SUPPLIERS, MANY OF THEM FROM OUT OF THE COUNTRY, EUROPEAN, AND THEY'RE SHIPPED IN LARGE QUANTITIES AND SO FORTH AND SOLD THAT WAY. THIS IS NOT A COTTAGE INDUSTRY WHERE, YOU KNOW, EVERY OTHER HOUSE IS MAKING TWENTY PILLS AND SELLING IT. THAT IS NOT THE WAY.

VAL>> IS IT AN ADDICTIVE DRUG?

GREG THOMPSON>> NOT PHYSICALLY ADDICTING IN THAT RESPECT, BUT WE DON'T KNOW LONG-TERM WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. RECENT STUDIES SUGGEST THAT EVEN SINGLE USES CAN RESULT IN SOME MEMORY DYSFUNCTION, COGNITIVE DYSFUNCTION, PROBLEMS WITH OVERALL MENTAL ALERTNESS. AND THE OTHER MAJOR FACTOR THAT THEY'RE FINDING NOW IS THAT POST-USE, THE NEXT DAY AFTER THEY'VE BEEN UP USING THIS STUFF, THEY CAN GO INTO A VERY DEEP DEPRESSION WHICH CAN LAST THREE OR FOUR DAYS, AND EVEN SAY THAT THEY GET DRUG-SEEKING BEHAVIOR BECAUSE THEY END UP TAKING ANOTHER DOSE OF DRUG TO MAKE THEMSELVES FEEL BETTER.

JESS>> SO THE AGONY IS THE ECSTASY.

GREG THOMPSON>> (LAUGHTER) YEAH, EXACTLY.

VAL>> DR. GREG THOMPSON, PROFESSOR AT USC AND PHARMACOLOGIST, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GREG THOMPSON>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, THEY MAY BE OLDER AND WISER, BUT SENIORS ARE STILL EASY TARGETS FOR SCAMS AND EVEN PHYSICAL ABUSE. WE'LL FIND OUT WHO'S GETTING HURT AND WHY.

GAY YEE>> THERE ARE SO MANY CHEATS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF SO MANY SENIORS. LEE DICKERSON WAS VICTIMIZED.

LEE DICKERSON>> I HAVE LEARNED A LITTLE MORE ABOUT HUMAN NATURE AND TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE PROTECTIVE OF MYSELF.

JESS>> YOU'RE ABOUT TO MEET A WRITER WHO HAS SOME INTERESTING IDEAS ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA. HE SPEAKS FROM EXPERIENCE AND HE SAYS THINGS YOU MAY NOT HAVE HEARD BEFORE.

VAL>> ELLIS COSE HAS PONDERED QUESTIONS ABOUT RACE FOR MUCH OF HIS CAREER AS A JOURNALIST. HE'S A COLUMNIST FOR NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE AND THE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL BEST-SELLING BOOKS, INCLUDING A NEW ONE CALLED "THE ENVY OF THE WORLD: ON BEING A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA". IT CHALLENGES AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES TO REINVENT THEMSELVES.

JESS>> ELLIS COSE JOINS US NOW AND SO DOES OUR POLITICAL ANALYST, KERMAN MADDOX. THIS IS A GREAT TIME TO BE A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA?

ELLIS COSE>> IT'S A GREAT TIME FOR SOME BLACK MEN AND I MAKE A FAIR DISTINCTION. YOU CAN USE THE DICKENS PHRASE: "IT'S THE BEST OF TIMES, IT'S THE WORST OF TIMES". WE'VE JUST SEEN SOME BLACK MEN ASCEND UNTIL THEY BECOME HEADS OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES. WE ALSO SEE A SITUATION WHERE 28 PERCENT OF BLACK MEN CAN LOOK FORWARD TO GOING TO JAIL. SO WE HAVE THIS DICHOTOMY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND PART OF WHAT THE BOOK ATTEMPTS TO DO IS TO UNRAVEL WHY THIS DICHOTOMY EXISTS AND WHAT SOME INDIVIDUALS CAN DO TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE ON THE SUCCESSFUL PATH AS OPPOSED TO THE PATH TO FAILURE.

VAL>> YOU SAY THAT BLACK MEN HAVE BEEN SHACKLED BY SOCIETY, BUT IN PART THEY SOMETIMES PUT ON THEIR OWN SHACKLES. EXPLAIN THAT.

ELLIS COSE>> WELL, THERE ARE LOTS OF CHALLENGES AND PROBLEMS THAT BLACK MEN FACE, PARTICULARLY IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES HAVING TO DEAL WITH LACK OF ACCESS TO EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES AND WITH LACK OF ACCESS TO MODELS OF SUCCESS. I THINK THAT PART OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS SOCIETY IS THAT WE HAVE SOME VERY NARROW IDEAS VERY OFTEN OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A BLACK MAN. WE VERY OFTEN THINK OF BLACK MEN AS RAPPERS, AS PREACHERS, AS ATHLETES, BUT WE DON'T --

VAL>> -- OR DRUG DEALERS OR CRIMINALS. IT'S A VERY, VERY DEFINED THING --

ELLIS COSE>> -- WELL, EVEN IN THAT WAY, BUT EVEN IN TERMS OF THE LEGITIMATE MARKET, WE THINK OF THEM IN FAIRLY NARROW TERMS FAIRLY OFTEN AND, FOR A KID GROWING UP IN A COMMUNITY WHO DOESN'T SEE A LOT OF OTHER MODELS, THESE ARE THE ONLY MODELS THAT HE OFTEN THINKS HE CAN AVAIL HIMSELF OF IF HE'S GOING TO ESCAPE SOME FAIRLY DESPERATE CIRCUMSTANCES.

KERMAN>> ELLIS, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUNG PEOPLE. ONE OF THE JOBS I HAVE IS, I TEACH AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE. I TEACH GOVERNMENT AND POLITICAL SCIENCE. MOST OF MY STUDENTS COME FROM INGLEWOOD AND COMPTON AND SOUTH L.A., WORKING CLASS, LOW-INCOME, TOUGH COMMUNITIES. WHAT I FIND STRIKING, AND I THINK YOU TOUCHED UPON IT IN YOUR BOOK, MANY YOUNG BLACK MALES THINK IT'S A WASTE OF TIME TO GET AN EDUCATION, WHICH IS SOMETHING ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY I WAS RAISED AND I WAS RAISED IN THE CITY MYSELF. DID YOUR BOOK GET INTO THAT PHENOMENON?

ELLIS COSE>> YEAH, THAT'S A WHOLE WAY OF THINKING. NOT ONLY AS A WASTE OF TIME, BUT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT BLACK MEN DO. IN SOME CASES, THERE'S A SENSE THAT IT'S A WHITE THING AND, IN OTHER CASES, THERE'S A SENSE THAT IT'S A FEMALE THING. I THINK ALL OF THOSE ARE DESTRUCTIVE IDEAS THAT HAVE BEEN SORT OF SET LOOSE IN OUR COMMUNITIES. THEN WHEN YOU ADD THAT TO THE FACT OF, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE A BASKETBALL STAR OR A RAPPER, YOU REALLY DON'T NEED AN EDUCATION, THEN YOU GET THIS SENSE OF WHY BOTHER WITH SCHOOL? THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOU SEE AN INCREASING EDUCATION GAP BETWEEN BLACK MEN AND BLACK WOMEN NOW.

KERMAN>> I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER GAP. ONE OF THE THINGS I ALSO NOTICE IS -- YOU KNOW, I'M A PROFESSIONAL LIKE YOURSELF -- I LIVE IN DIFFERENT WORLDS AND MOVE IN DIFFERENT WORLDS AND I NOTICE THERE SEEMS TO BE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TENSION WITH THE GAP BETWEEN MIDDLE-CLASS AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND MANY OF THOSE WHO ARE NOT MIDDLE-CLASS. DID YOUR BOOK GET INTO THAT? BECAUSE SOMETIMES I TELL PEOPLE THAT TENSION IS ACTUALLY GREATER THAN BLACK-WHITE TENSION, IN MY EXPERIENCE.

ELLIS COSE>> WELL, THERE'S TENSION AND THERE'S ALSO JUST A REAL ECONOMIC GAP. THERE'S A FUNNY THING THAT HAPPENS BECAUSE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE MIDDLE-CLASS, SINCE THIS TENSION, THEY ATTEMPT TO ACT STREET. THEY ATTEMPT TO ACT WHAT THEY THINK IS ACTING BLACK, WHICH IS ACTING NON-MIDDLE-CLASS.

VAL>> BLACK, AS THEY SEE ON TELEVISION OR MTV?

ELLIS COSE>> AS THEY SEE IT ON TELEVISION, AS THEY SEE IT IN MOVIES, AS THEY SEE IT IN POPULAR CULTURE.

JESS>> IN "THE ENVY OF THE WORLD: ON BEING A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA", YOU CLOSE WITH HARD TRUTHS. WHAT'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT HARD TRUTH?

ELLIS COSE>> WELL, TWELVE HARD TRUTHS. THAT'S MY WAY TO CODIFY SOME THINGS THAT ARE, IN SOME CASE, COMMON SENSE. THE ONE THAT'S GOTTEN CERTAINLY THE MOST REACTION FROM PEOPLE IS HARD TRUTH NUMBER FOUR AND THAT IS WHERE I SAY: "DON'T SHARE YOUR DREAMS WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T ACCOMPLISHED VERY MUCH." THE REASON FOR THAT IS, VERY OFTEN WHEN YOU START TELLING PEOPLE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AND THEY HAVEN'T DONE MUCH THEMSELVES, THEIR RESPONSE IS, "WELL, YOU CAN'T DO THAT."

VAL>> YOU ALSO HAVE ANOTHER TRUTH THAT MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT CONTROVERSIAL. IT SAYS, "PLAY THE RACE CARD CAREFULLY AND AT YOUR OWN PERIL."

ELLIS COSE>> AGAIN, THAT'S A COMMON SENSE THING, THAT SOMETIMES PLAYING THE RACE CARD WORKS. IT CERTAINLY WORKED FOR JOHNNY COCHRAN OUT HERE.

JESS>> IT'S NOT NECESSARILY WRONG THEN?

ELLIS COSE>> WELL, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY EFFECTIVE AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE OF WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY, THAT SOMETIMES SCREAMING RACE HURTS YOU MORE THAN IT HELPS YOU, WHATEVER THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION IS.

KERMAN>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER SITUATION. IT'S VERY COMMON. SOMETIMES WHAT HAPPENS IS, EVEN THOUGH I'M A PROFESSIONAL, I GET STOPPED BY THE COPS ALL THE TIME, THE WHOLE RACIAL PROFILING. I GO TO A RESTAURANT AND COINCIDENTALLY THEY ALWAYS SIT ME IN A CORNER. I WENT TO A JEWELRY STORE ON THE WEST SIDE OF L.A. RECENTLY AND THE WAY THEY REACTED IT WAS AS IF BIN LADEN HAD WALKED IN, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? A LOT OF MIDDLE-CLASS AFRICAN-AMERICANS GO THROUGH THIS. DID YOUR BOOK GET INTO THAT AND THE RAGE THAT YOU FEEL WHEN PEOPLE TREAT YOU LIKE THAT?

ELLIS COSE>> WELL, THE FIRST ANECDOTE IN THE BOOK, ACTUALLY, AS A PERSONAL ANECDOTE. IT TALKS ABOUT HOW, WHEN I WAS A KID AT THIRTEEN, I GOT FOLLOWED AROUND THIS STORE, MARSHALL FIELDS IN CHICAGO, WHEN I WAS TRYING TO BUY A GIFT FOR MY MOTHER. IT WAS SUCH AN INFURIATING EXPERIENCE THAT I ENDED UP LEAVING THE STORE IN ANGER. ACTUALLY IN SAN FRANCISCO, IT ALSO TALKS ABOUT AN INCIDENT WHERE I ACTUALLY SUED A RESTAURANT FOR TREATING ME IN THIS WAY AND GOT A LITTLE MONEY IN THE END.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, ELLIS COSE, FOR BEING WITH US. YOUR BOOK, AGAIN, IS "THE ENVY OF THE WORLD: ON BEING A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA". VERY PROVOCATIVE. NO DOUBT WILL GET A LOT OF ATTENTION. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

ELLIS COSE>> THANK YOU. GREAT PLEASURE.

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JESS>> "ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY?" FIFTY YEARS AGO, THAT QUESTION DESTROYED THE CAREERS OF HUNDREDS OF HOLLYWOOD SCREENWRITERS. NOW AN EXHIBIT AT THE ACADEMY OF MOTION PICTURE ARTS AND SCIENCES ACKNOWLEDGES THE ACADEMY ITSELF WAS INVOLVED IN THE INFAMOUS HOLLYWOOD BLACKLIST.

VAL>> THE BLACKLIST CONTAINED THE NAMES OF SUSPECTED COMMUNISTS OR COMMUNIST SYMPATHIZERS. TEN OF THEM WENT TO JAIL AND SOME OF THEIR FILMS WERE ALSO BLACKLISTED FOR ALLEGEDLY PREACHING ANTI-AMERICAN THEMES. IN ONE YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE, "CHRIST IN CONCRETE" WAS ABOUT THE STRUGGLES OF POOR AMERICAN WORKERS.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> WE SPOKE WITH NORMA BARZMAN, A WRITER AND ONE-TIME MEMBER OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY WHO WAS BLACKLISTED, AND LARRY CEPLAIR, AUTHOR AND CO-CURATOR OF THE NEW EXHIBIT AT THE MOTION PICTURE ACADEMY.

JESS>> MS. BARZMAN, AS A BLACKLISTED WRITER DURING THE INQUISITION IN HOLLYWOOD, YOU MUST BE VERY PLEASED NOW TO HEAR YOURSELF DESCRIBED AS ALSO PART OF THE GREATEST GENERATION.

NORMA BARZMAN>> I LOVE IT. I EAT IT UP. BUT I THINK IT'S ONLY FAIR THAT, AFTER NOT WHAT WE SUFFERED BECAUSE ACTUALLY MY HUSBAND AND I WENT TO FRANCE AND DIDN'T REALLY SUFFER THE BLACKLIST THE WAY THE OTHER PEOPLE DID, BUT OUR FRIENDS, TEN WENT TO JAIL, MANY OTHERS LOST NOT JUST THEIR CAREERS, BUT THEIR FAMILIES, THEIR CHILDREN WERE HURT BY IT, THEY WERE DIVORCED, SOME COMMITTED SUICIDE. IT ISN'T JUST HOLLYWOOD, IT'S THE WHOLE COUNTRY.

JESS>> ALL IN DEFENSE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT, AMONG OTHER THINGS.

NORMA BARZMAN>> WELL, THE TEN WENT TO JAIL TO DEFEND THE FIRST AMENDMENT. THEY REALLY COULD HAVE TAKEN THE FIFTH FROM THE BEGINNING AND NOT GONE TO JAIL, YES.

VAL>> MR. CEPLAIR, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOME CLIPS OF FILMS THAT WERE, IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY, WRITTEN BY BLACKLISTED AUTHORS. YOU'RE ALSO -- WHAT YOUR INVOLVEMENT WITH THIS ISSUE? THE AUTHOR OF --

LARRY CEPLAIR>> -- I CO-AUTHORED "THE INQUISITION IN HOLLYWOOD", WHICH IS A COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY GOING ALL THE WAY BACK INTO THE EARLY 30'S WITH THE POLITICAL CONFLICTS IN HOLLYWOOD AND THE LABOR STRUGGLES, AND THEN I CURATED THE EXHIBIT THAT'S NOW ON DISPLAY AT THE ACADEMY.

NORMA BARZMAN>> MAY I SAY THAT HIS BOOK IS THE BEST BOOK ON THE SUBJECT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO INFORM YOURSELF ABOUT THE ROOTS OF THE BLACKLIST, WHY IT HAPPENED, EARLY LABOR STRUGGLES AND SO FORTH, AND UNDERSTAND IT.

VAL>> AND THAT'S THE BEST PLUG YOU'LL EVER GET, I'M TELLING YOU (LAUGHTER) --

LARRY CEPLAIR>> -- FROM THE BEST PERSON (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> LET'S TAKE A LOOK NOW AT A CLIP FROM A MOVIE CALLED "CROSSFIRE".

NORMA BARZMAN>> OH, YES.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> ROBERT YOUNG.

VAL>> WHAT'S THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS MOVIE IN TERMS OF THE BLACKLIST?

NORMA BARZMAN>> IT WAS THE FIRST FILM AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM AND, LIKE MANY OF OUR FILMS WHICH HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF HAVING COMMUNIST CONTENT, IT REALLY WAS, IN THE DEMOCRATIC TRADITION, IT WAS LIKE MANY OF THE FILMS WHICH WE'RE SEEING NOW IN RETROSPECTIVES OF THE FILMS OF THE BLACKLIST AND WHICH YOU CAN SEE IN THE EXHIBITION. THEY ARE FILMS ABOUT ANTI-RACISM, THEY ARE PREMATURELY FEMINIST, THEY ARE SOMETIMES AGAINST NATIONALISM, NATIONALISM MUCH MORE FOR INTERNATIONALISM, BUT I WOULD NOT SAY -- IT'S BEEN EXAMINED. WE CAME OFF WITH FLYING COLORS AND PEOPLE HAVE ADMITTED THAT THEY ARE DEMOCRATIC FILMS. THEY'RE NOT FILMS THAT HAD ANY COMMUNIST CONTENT.

JESS>> LARRY, IN YOUR BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT PART OF THIS WAS THE LABOR MOVEMENT TOO.

LARRY CEPLAIR>> RIGHT.

JESS>> ANYBODY WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN HOLLYWOOD WAS IMMEDIATELY SUSPECT?

LARRY CEPLAIR>> NO. IT WAS CERTAIN LABOR UNIONS. WHEN THE SCREENWRITERS GUILD FORMED AN INDEPENDENT UNION AND BROKE AWAY FROM THE ACADEMY WRITER' BRANCH, THAT STARTED A MAJOR STRUGGLE AGAINST THE PRODUCERS AND ALSO WITHIN THE UNION BETWEEN CONSERVATIVES AND LEFTISTS. I THINK YOU CAN REALLY TRACE ALL THE PROBLEMS BACK TO THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE.

VAL>> THIS NEXT ONE IS CALLED "THE BOY WITH GREEN HAIR". IT DEALS WITH PREJUDICE AND THE WAR'S EFFECT ON CHILDREN. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> I DON'T REMEMBER THIS MOVIE.

NORMA BARZMAN>> OH, MY HUSBAND WROTE IT (LAUGHTER). IN EUROPE, THEY KNOW THIS FILM VERY WELL (FRENCH TITLE). IT'S VERY POPULAR AND IT GETS REPLAYED AND REPLAYED ON FRENCH TELEVISION. IT CAME OUT AT THE TIME OF THE COLD WAR. HOWARD HUGHES BOUGHT RKO AND DIDN'T WANT THESE LINES THAT "WAR IS BAD FOR CHILDREN" WHILE HE WAS A, YOU KNOW, MUNITIONS MANUFACTURER IN PLANES.

JESS>> WELL, SO MANY OF THESE -- YOU'VE MENTIONED YOUR HUSBAND HAVING WRITTEN. SO MANY OF THESE WERE PENNED BY AUTHORS WHO WERE NOT ABLE TO USE THEIR OWN NAMES.

NORMA BARZMAN>> OH, BUT THIS WAS BEFORE.

LARRY CEPLAIR>> THIS WAS PRE-BLACKLIST. AFTER 1950 AND 1951, VERY FEW OF THE LEFT COULD USE THEIR OWN NAMES UNLESS THEY WENT TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

VAL>> WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID DURING -- IN 1949, YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND WENT TO FRANCE?

NORMA BARZMAN>> FEBRUARY '49. WE WENT FIRST TO ENGLAND TO MAKE A WONDERFUL FILM, "CHRIST IN CONCRETE". IT WAS ABOUT THE DEPRESSION IN THE UNITED STATES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN THE U.S. EMBASSY TOOK MY PASSPORT IN PARIS, I SAID, "WHY? WHY?" THEY SAID, "WELL, YOUR HUSBAND'S FILM WAS ABOUT THE DEPRESSION IN THE UNITED STATES AND YOU LET IT BE SEEN AT THE FESTIVAL IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA."

JESS>> WE CAN'T GET AWAY FROM THIS WITHOUT ASKING, IN YOUR JUDGMENT, COULD THIS HAPPEN AGAIN? THE BLACKLIST?

LARRY CEPLAIR>> I THINK SO. I THINK IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

VAL>> REALLY?

LARRY CEPLAIR>> I THINK, IF YOU'RE OF MIDDLE EASTERN DESCENT, I THINK YOU ARE IN DANGER OF NOT GETTING A JOB, MAYBE BEING FIRED FROM YOUR JOB, PERHAPS NOT GETTING WORK. YES, I THINK IT HAPPENED REGULARLY AND IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN.

NORMA BARZMAN>> AND IT'S HAPPENING IN ANOTHER WAY NOW. WE'VE SEEN -- THEY REALLY PUT THE FEAR OF THE LORD INTO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SO THAT THEY DIDN'T DISSENT. FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS, THEY KEPT THEIR MOUTHS SHUT NO MATTER WHAT THE CIA DID. IF THE CIA KILLED SOMEONE IN CHILE OR DID SOMETHING STRANGE IN GUATEMALA, NOBODY EVERY SAID ANYTHING. WHY? BECAUSE THEY WERE FRIGHTENED OFF OF DISSENT BECAUSE THE BLACKLIST WAS REALLY A VERY EFFECTIVE WEAPON OF THE RIGHT. IT REALLY WAS.

VAL>> ALL THE MORE REASON FOR EXHIBITS LIKE THE ONE THAT BOTH OF YOU PUT TOGETHER.

NORMA BARZMAN>> YES.

VAL>> NORMA BARZMAN AND LARRY CEPLAIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

LARRY CEPLAIR>> THANK YOU.

NORMA BARZMAN>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> THE EXHIBIT, "REDS AND BLACKLISTS: POLITICAL STRUGGLES IN THE MOVIE INDUSTRY", IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC AND IT RUNS THROUGH APRIL 21 AT THE ACADEMY OF MOTION PICTURE ARTS AND SCIENCES. FOR MORE INFORMATION, CALL THE NUMBER ON YOUR SCREEN (310) 247-3600) OR LOG ONTO OSCARS.ORG.

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