SR. MARYANNE REGENSBERGER>> I DON'T BELIEVE THOSE MYTHS ABOUT AGING, THAT YOU HAVE TO BE INCAPACITATED, THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE DEMENTIA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THAT IS A MYTH. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> AND CHANGE IS COMING TO A POLLING PLACE NEAR YOU. THIS IS WHAT YOU USED TO SEE WHEN YOU CAST YOUR BALLOT: PUNCH CARDS. BUT YOU KNOW THEY COULD BE UNRELIABLE, SO GET READY FOR COMPUTER SCREENS. THEY'RE EASY TO USE AND ACCURATE, BUT WHY DID IT TAKE A LEGAL BATTLE TO BRING 21ST CENTURY TECHNOLOGY TO THE VOTING BOOTH?

JESS>> WE'LL ALSO LOOK AT A MODERN DILEMMA FACING A CENTURIES OLD CULTURE. IT'S ABOUT BEING GAY AND AN ORTHODOX JEW AND RESOLVING THE CONFLICT BETWEEN THE TWO.

>> YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE HEARTACHE OF BEING IN THIS POSITION, HAVING THESE FEELINGS AND COMING TO GRIPS WITH WHAT GOD HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT. TO HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH ANOTHER MAN IS SOMETHING THAT'S A PROHIBITION.

JESS>> A NEW DOCUMENTARY EXPLORES THE QUESTIONS FACING HOMOSEXUAL JEWS WHOSE PASSION FOR RELIGION IS JUST AS STRONG AS THEIR SEXUAL IDENTITIES.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT A LOOK AT HOW EACH OF US MIGHT STAY MORE MENTALLY FIT, ESPECIALLY AS WE GET OLDER. THE ENCOURAGING NEWS COMES FROM THIS MONTH'S JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION. DOCTORS SUGGEST THERE IS SOMETHING WE CAN DO TO REDUCE THE RISK OF ALZHEIMER'S BY EXERCISING THE BRAIN.

VAL>> THE STUDY LOOKED AT 800 ELDERLY NUNS, PRIESTS AND BROTHERS FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY. IT FOUND THAT THOSE WHO WERE MENTALLY ACTIVE REDUCED THEIR RISK OF ALZHEIMER'S BY HALF. AS GAY YEE TELLS US, AN ORANGE COUNTY WOMAN WITH A HISTORY OF ALZHEIMER'S IS DOING JUST THAT.

GAY>> JOAN CHASSEY BENNETT TOOK UP PAINTING A FEW YEARS AGO AND STARTED WORKING AS A TEMP TO CONSTANTLY TRY NEW JOBS. SHE'S CONVINCED THAT CHALLENGING HER BRAIN BY FORCING IT TO LEARN NEW THINGS MAY DELAY OR PREVENT ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE. IT'S AN ILLNESS THAT RUNS IN THE FAMILY. BOTH HER MOTHER AND AUNT DIED FROM IT.

JOAN CHASSEY BENNETT>> YOU KNOW, MAYBE I CAN'T HELP GETTING HIT BY A CAR, BUT I CAN HELP LOOKING WHEN I WALK OUT THE DOOR, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE SURE THERE'S NO CAR COMING. (LAUGHTER)

GAY>> JOAN IS NOT ALONE. AMERICA'S PEPSI GENERATION IS FAST BECOMING A MEDICARE GENERATION. IN FIFTY YEARS, THE NUMBER OF AMERICANS OVER 65 WILL TRIPLE, BUT MANY BABY BOOMERS AREN'T ABOUT TO TAKE THIS LYING DOWN NOR DO THEY HAVE TO.

DR. GARY SMALL>> ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF IT IS GENETIC, BUT TWO-THIRDS HAS TO DO WITH THE WAY WE LIVE OUR LIVES. ARE WE REMAINING ENGAGED IN AN ACTIVE LIFESTYLE? ARE WE WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE? ARE WE REMAINING SOCIAL? ARE WE REMAINING ACTIVE BOTH PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY? THOSE KINDS OF APPROACHES ARE GOING TO HELP US LIVE LONGER BETTER.

GAY>> A RECENT STUDY IN THE JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION SEEMS TO CONFIRM WHAT JOAN AND DR. SMALL HAVE SUSPECTED ALL ALONG.

DR. ROBERT WILSON>> OUR STUDY RESULTS CERTAINLY SUGGEST THAT STAYING INTELLECTUALLY ACTIVE IN OLD AGE MAY WELL REDUCE YOUR RISK OF ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE.

GAY>> DR. ROBERT WILSON AND HIS COLLEAGUES AT RUSH PRESBYTERIAN ST. LUKE'S MEDICAL CENTER IN CHICAGO HAVE BEEN CLOSELY WATCHING HUNDREDS OF ELDERLY NUNS, PRIESTS AND BROTHERS FROM FORTY RELIGIOUS GROUPS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. NONE OF THE VOLUNTEERS HAD DEMENTIA WHEN THE STUDY BEGAN FOUR YEARS AGO AND, ONCE A YEAR, THEY RECEIVE A BATTERY OF TESTS TO EVALUATE MEMORY AND THINKING. THE STUDY REVEALED THAT PHYSICAL EXERCISE SEEMED TO HAVE NO IMPACT, BUT MENTAL EXERCISE LIKE READING, PLAYING CARDS OR LEARNING HOW TO USE A COMPUTER CUT THE RISK OF ALZHEIMER'S NEARLY IN HALF.

SR. MARYANNE REGENSBERGER>> KEEP MENTALLY ACTIVE, DO A LOT OF READING, KEEP UP ON THE NEWS AND, OF COURSE, WE LIKE TO KEEP UP ON THE NEWS SO WE CAN PRAY FOR THESE SITUATIONS AS THEY HAPPEN BECAUSE SOME OF THEM ARE DRASTIC. I DON'T BELIEVE THOSE MYTHS ABOUT AGING, THAT YOU HAVE TO BE INCAPACITATED, THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE DEMENTIA OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THAT IS A MYTH. (LAUGHTER).

GAY>> WHILE EXPERTS AREN'T QUITE SURE WHY IT WORKS, THEY ARE ENCOURAGING SENIORS TO GIVE THEIR BRAINS A WORK-OUT. JOAN HAS ENROLLED HERSELF IN A MEMORY TRAINING CLASS AT THE CENTER FOR AGING.

JOAN CHASSEY BENNETT>> WHEN I WENT FOR ONE OF MY TESTS, A FOLLOW-UP, A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, THE PSYCHOLOGIST SAID SHE HAD NOTICED THERE REALLY WAS A DIFFERENCE, THAT THERE WAS AN INCREASE IN MY ABILITY TO REMEMBER BETTER.

GAY>> PROOF WILL BE IN THE LONG-TERM STUDIES THAT TRACK A LARGER CROSS-SECTION OF PEOPLE, BUT RESEARCHERS SAY A FEW EXTRA MENTAL PUSH-UPS EVERY DAY CERTAINLY COULDN'T HURT.

DR. ROBERT WILSON>> THERE'S NOT MUCH OF A DOWNSIDE IF WE'RE WRONG. THERE ARE MANY BENEFITS TO INTELLECTUAL ACTIVITY AND WE THINK WE'RE FINDING YET ANOTHER ONE.

GAY>> AS YOUR OLD PHYSICAL FITNESS TEACHER ALWAYS SAID, "USE IT OR LOSE IT". THE SAME APPEARS TO APPLY TO STAYING MENTALLY FIT. IN LOS ANGELES, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS DR. LOREN LIPSON. HE IS CHIEF OF GERIATRIC MEDICINE AT USC'S KECK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE. DOCTOR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WHAT DID WE LEARN FROM THIS STUDY THAT WE HADN'T LEARNED BEFORE, THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW BEFORE?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> WELL, JESS, I THINK IT'S THE FIRST TIME IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED THAT MENTAL ACTIVITY IS HELPFUL IN REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF DEMENTIA OF THE ALZHEIMER'S TYPE OR DEMENTIA IN GENERAL. THIS IS A LANDMARK STUDY FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW BECAUSE NO ONE HAS EVER STATISTICALLY LOOKED AT GROUPS OF PEOPLE AND BEEN ABLE TO SHOW THAT MENTAL ACTIVITY IS IMPORTANT, SO THEREFORE THIS STUDY IS VERY IMPORTANT.

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN SMALLER WHERE THEY'VE LOOKED AT KEEPING PEOPLE ACTIVE PHYSICALLY. THERE HASN'T BEEN MUCH POSITIVE FEEDBACK ON THAT. THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES WHERE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED BY LOOKING AT DIFFERENT AREAS TO KEEP MENTALLY ACTIVE. FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU'RE GOOD IN MATH, DO ART. IF YOU'RE GOOD IN ART, DO ENGLISH LITERATURE, AND --

VAL>> -- YOU MEAN, DO OPPOSITE BRAIN ACTIVITIES?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> OPPOSITE THINGS, RIGHT, TO KEEP THE SYNAPSES, OR THE PLACES BETWEEN THE BRAIN CELLS, ACTIVE. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DEMONSTRATED OBJECTIVELY TO WORK. IT SEEMS LIKE IT WILL. BUT THERE'S NO QUESTION, IF SOMEONE KEEPS MENTALLY ACTIVE, IT'S GOOD FOR THEM AS THEY GET OLDER. WHY? THERE'S LESS DEPRESSION, PEOPLE TEND TO NOT FOCUS ON THEIR OWN AILMENTS AS MUCH AND THEY GO OUT AND THEY SOCIALIZE. SO IN AND OF ITSELF, EVEN WITHOUT THIS, IT'S A VERY POSITIVE THING. BUT WHEN YOU ADD ON TOP OF IT NOW THE DOCUMENTATION THAT THIS WILL HELP DELAY THE ONSET OF DEMENTIA OF THE ALZHEIMER'S TYPE, I THINK IT'S A FASCINATING STUDY.

JESS>> YOU'VE SUGGESTED THAT PHYSICAL EXERCISE HAD NO APPRECIABLE EFFECT ON THIS STUDY, BUT IT CERTAINLY IMPROVES THE QUALITY OF LIFE, DOESN'T IT?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> IT ABSOLUTELY DOES AND ALSO IT AFFECTS OTHER SYSTEMS LIKE THE CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO KEEP PHYSICALLY ACTIVE. THERE'S NO QUESTION. I SAY I DON'T DO EXERCISE, BUT IN REALITY, I WALK TWO OR THREE MILES A DAY AT THE L.A. COUNTY USC MEDICAL CENTER AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT AS FAR AS JUST KEEPING YOURSELF ABLE TO WITHSTAND THE STRESSES OF LIFE AND ALSO HAVE COLLATERAL CORONARY CIRCULATION IN YOUR HEART.

THE OTHER INTERESTING THING ABOUT DEMENTIA, AND SPECIFICALLY ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE, THERE ARE OTHER STUDIES THAT HAVE SHOWN ONE CAN PERHAPS REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE. THESE STUDIES THAT HAVE LOOKED AT HORMONAL REPLACEMENTS SUCH AS PREMARIN IN POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN COMPARED TO CONTROLS HAVE SHOWN THERE'S A FORTY PERCENT REDUCTION IN ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE IN THOSE WOMEN WHO HAD IT.

VAL>> TAKING WHAT? A CERTAIN DRUG?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> PREMARIN, WHICH IS BASICALLY A MEDICATION THAT'S USED AS HORMONE REPLACEMENT IN POST-MENOPAUSAL WOMEN.

VAL>> ANY OTHER DIETARY REMEDIES THAT WOULD --

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> -- THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF ANECDOTAL STUDIES. LECITHIN WAS A COMMONLY THOUGHT OF MEDICATION, WELL, FOOD PRODUCT, THAT HAS BEEN USED. THEY SAY GREEN LEAFY VEGETABLES MIGHT BE USEFUL. THERE ARE STUDIES THAT HAVE LOOKED AT FOOD ADDITIVES LIKE GINKGO BILOBA OR NATURAL PRODUCTS. AND THERE'S AN ACTUAL STUDY IN THE JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION WHICH WAS CONTROLLED AND IT LOOKED LIKE GINKGO HELPED MAINTAIN A COGNITION IN PEOPLE VERSUS CONTROLS. SO THERE ARE MANY WAYS WE HAVE OF APPROACHING THIS REAL PROBLEM WHICH IS, AS WE'RE AGING, LOSING OUR ABILITY TO REMEMBER AND TO THINK AND ABSTRACT.

JESS>> WHAT ABOUT STUDIES ON WINE, RED WINES IN PARTICULAR? THAT'S SUPPOSEDLY BENEFICIAL TOO, IS IT NOT?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> YES, IT IS. THERE ARE MANY STUDIES, BUT THE IMPORTANT THING IS, MANY OF THESE THINGS HAVE BEEN ANECDOTAL RATHER THAN WELL CONTROLLED AND I THINK --

VAL>> -- OR THE STUDIES JUST ARE FLAWED OR NOT VERY THOROUGH.

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> RIGHT.

VAL>> SO HOW CAN WE TELL WHAT'S REALLY DOCUMENTED, WHAT WE CAN ABSOLUTELY BANK ON AND WHAT WE CAN'T? ANY PLACE TO GO OR A SOURCE?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> WELL, YOU HAVE TO GO TO DECENT MEDICAL JOURNALS THAT USE PEER REVIEW. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY HAVE OTHER SCIENTISTS REVIEW THE WORKS WHO ARE PEOPLE IN THE FIELD. USUALLY, THOSE STUDIES ARE LESS FLAWED IF THEY MAKE IT INTO PRINT.

JESS>> TELL ME, DOES THIS STUDY SUGGEST THAT RETIREMENT OUGHT TO BE PUT OFF ALSO?

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> WELL, RETIREMENT, TO ME, IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING AND IT IS FOR MANY PEOPLE. RETIREMENT IS NOT SITTING ON THE COUCH THINKING ABOUT FISHING THAT YOU NEVER DO. RETIREMENT SHOULD BE CHANGING YOUR ACTIVITIES TO DO THINGS --

JESS>> -- A TIME FOR MENTAL STIMULATION.

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> ABSOLUTELY.

VAL>> WELL, DR. LOREN LIPSON FROM USC'S KECK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE, THANK YOU SO MUCH. REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMING BY.

DR. LOREN LIPSON>> MY PLEASURE. THANK YOU.

VAL>> TOMORROW, GOOD DAYCARE IS HARD ENOUGH TO FIND WHEN YOU WORK NINE TO FIVE, BUT WHERE DO YOU PUT YOUR CHILDREN IF YOU HAVE TO WORK NIGHTS AND WEEKENDS? THE SOLUTION? OVERNIGHT DAYCARE. IT'S A REALITY FOR SCORES OF WORKING PARENTS, BUT WHAT IS IT DOING TO OUR CHILDREN? THAT'S THURSDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> IF THE ELECTION OF 2000 TAUGHT US ANYTHING, IT IS THAT VOTING EQUIPMENT IS FLAWED. BUT IN CALIFORNIA, CHANGE IS ON THE WAY. SAY GOODBYE TO THE PUNCH CARD BALLOTS THAT GAVE FLORIDA VOTERS SO MANY PROBLEMS AND SAY HELLO TO COMPUTER SCREENS. OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, CALIFORNIA WILL SPEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS TO INSTALL MACHINES SUCH AS THESE.

>> YEAH, THIS IS OUR DIRTY LITTLE SECRET THAT'S COME OUT TO THE PUBLIC AND THAT IS THAT THERE'S HUMAN FALLIBILITY IN EVERY ELECTION. NOW THERE ARE ALSO MACHINE FALLIBILITIES THAT ARE COME TO LIGHT HERE.

JESS>> RIVERSIDE COUNTY HAS ALREADY SWITCHED TO TOUCH-SCREEN VOTING. NOW A JUDGE HAS ORDERED THAT THEY BE INSTALLED ACROSS THE STATE BY 2004 JUST IN TIME FOR THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

VAL>> BUT IT TOOK A LEGAL BATTLE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN AND AT THE FOREFRONT OF THAT LAWSUIT WAS THE ACLU. JOINING US NOW IS DAN TOKAJI. HE IS STAFF ATTORNEY FOR THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

DAN TOKAJI>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> THE FIGURE OF WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST TO DO THIS IS STAGGERING.

DAN TOKAJI>> IT SOUNDS STAGGERING, BUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, IT'S A SMALL PRICE TO PAY FOR A BETTER DEMOCRACY.

VAL>> HOW MUCH IS THAT?

DAN TOKAJI>> WE ESTIMATE, OR IT'S ESTIMATED, I SHOULD SAY, THAT THE TOTAL PRICE TAG TO REPLACE THE PRE-SCORED PUNCH CARD MACHINES, THE HANGING CHAD MACHINES THAT WE SAW SO MUCH ABOUT IN FLORIDA AND THAT WE ALSO USE HERE IN CALIFORNIA, WOULD RUN ON THE ORDER OF $200 MILLION TO $300 MILLION DOLLARS. THAT'S IF THEY'RE REPLACED WITH STATE-OF-THE-ART TECHNOLOGY THAT OUGHT TO LAST FOR MANY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE.

VAL>> AND THAT'S FOR EVERY COUNTY ACROSS THE STATE?

DAN TOKAJI>> THAT'S FOR ALL THE COUNTIES THAT ARE CURRENTLY USING THE PRE-SCORED PUNCH CARD MACHINES, THE HANGING CHAD PUNCH CARD MACHINES. THESE OUTDATED MACHINES ARE ACTUALLY USED BY OVER HALF OF CALIFORNIA'S VOTERS EVEN TODAY AND THE REALITY IS THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN RETIRED YEARS AGO BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY KNOWN ABOUT THIS PROBLEM FOR MANY YEARS EVEN THOUGH IT DIDN'T COME TO THE PUBLIC'S ATTENTION UNTIL THE FIASCO IN FLORIDA BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 2000.

JESS>> WE ACCEPT THE NEED, BUT BEFORE WE GET AWAY FROM THE COST, WHERE WILL THAT MONEY COME FROM? THE STATE'S GENERAL FUND?

DAN TOKAJI>> THERE'S A BOND MEASURE ON THE BALLOT, PROPOSITION 41. IT'S ON THE MARCH BALLOT WHICH THE VOTERS WILL DECIDE UPON IN MARCH. THERE'S ALSO CONGRESSIONAL LEGISLATION WHICH, I UNDERSTAND, IS ON A FAIRLY FAST TRACK, AND --

JESS>> -- TO MAKE IT NATIONWIDE, THEN?

DAN TOKAJI>> EXACTLY, TO ALLOCATE MONIES NATIONWIDE, BECAUSE CALIFORNIA IS CERTAINLY NOT THE ONLY STATE THAT'S DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE. IN FACT, FLORIDA HAS ALREADY TAKEN STEPS TOWARD MAKING A CONVERSION. THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A NEW VOTING SYSTEM IN PLACE BY 2002. GEORGIA, MARYLAND, HOUSTON, MANY OTHER STATES AND COUNTIES ARE ON THEIR WAY TO MAKING THAT CHANGE.

VAL>> SO YOU HAD TO GO TO COURT NOT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, BUT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN FASTER?

DAN TOKAJI>> WELL, ACTUALLY, WE DID HAVE TO GO TO COURT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

VAL>> EVEN TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

DAN TOKAJI>> AS OF APRIL OF 2001, A LITTLE LESS THAN A YEAR AGO WHEN WE BROUGHT THE LAWSUIT, CALIFORNIA WAS STILL USING PUNCH CARD MACHINES AND THERE WAS NO MOMENTUM UNDERWAY TO GET RID OF THEM. SUBSEQUENT TO OUR BRINGING THE LAWSUIT, THE SECRETARY OF STATE AGREED TO GET RID OF THE MACHINES AND THEN THE BATTLE TURNED TO THE QUESTION OF WHEN. WE THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE CLEAR THAT CALIFORNIA COULD GET RID OF ITS PUNCH CARD MACHINES AND REPLACE THEM WITH STATE-OF-THE-ART TECHNOLOGY BY 2004, AND THE JUDGE AGREED WITH US.

VAL>> VERY GOOD. SO NOW THE PROCESS BEGINS.

DAN TOKAJI>> THE PROCESS BEGINS.

VAL>> NOW IT WILL BE REPLACED BY SOMETHING LIKE THIS? THIS COMPUTER SCREEN WHERE YOU ACTUALLY SEE THE BALLOT DISPLAYED ELECTRONICALLY AND YOU JUST TOUCH? IS THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IN MIND?

DAN TOKAJI>> THAT'S ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES. RIVERSIDE WENT TO A TOUCH-SCREEN TYPE SYSTEM IN THE YEAR 2000 AND HAD REMARKABLY GOOD RESULTS WITH IT.

VAL>> IN FACT, I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT NOW. THIS ONE WAS USED IN RIVERSIDE AND THEY SAID --

DAN TOKAJI>> -- YEAH, IT'S REALLY REMARKABLE. THEY'VE RECEIVED VERY POSITIVE FEEDBACK FROM VIRTUALLY ALL SEGMENTS OF THE COMMUNITY, INCLUDING --

JESS>> -- THERE ARE SOME REPORTS OF SOME PROBLEMS WITH IT, THAT IT ISN'T QUITE AS PRECISE AS WE HAD THOUGHT.

DAN TOKAJI>> ANY KIND OF SYSTEM, IF IT'S NOT IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY, IF YOU DON'T DO PROPER VOTER EDUCATION, CAN HAVE ITS PROBLEMS. RIVERSIDE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE SITUATION WHERE IT SEEMS THEY DID EVERYTHING RIGHT AND THEY HAD TERRIFIC RESULTS. BUT YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO HAVE A VOTING SYSTEM THAT IS FREE FROM HUMAN ERROR. YOU'VE GOT TO DO VOTER EDUCATION AND PEOPLE HAVE TO BE PROPERLY TRAINED IN TERMS OF POLL WORKERS AND COUNTY OFFICIALS.

JESS>> YOU WERE JOINED IN THIS SUIT BY THE AFL-CIO AND COMMON CAUSE?

DAN TOKAJI>> COMMON CAUSE, SOUTHWEST VOTER REGISTRATION, EDUCATION PROJECT AND SOUTHERN CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE. OTHER GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS AS WELL.

VAL>> NOW HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH THE DIGITAL DIVIDE WHICH OCCURS NOT JUST BETWEEN THE HAVES AND HAVE NOTS, BUT GENERATIONS. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WALK IN AND THEY'RE GOING TO SEE THIS COMPUTER SCREEN. THEY DON'T EVEN LIKE TO USE ATMS -- APPARENTLY IT'S KIND OF SIMILAR TO ATMS. YOU HAVE TO PUT A CARD IN -- HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE WHO JUST RESPOND NEGATIVELY TOWARD THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY AND MAY NOT EVEN VOTE?

DAN TOKAJI>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT DRAWING ON A BLANK SLATE HERE. OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE DEALT WITH THIS PROBLEM, AND THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT THAT EXPRESSED.

JESS>> PLUS THE PUNCH BOARD WASN'T EXACTLY EASY.

DAN TOKAJI>> EXACTLY. A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY NEW VOTERS, HAVE HAD A GREAT DEAL OF TROUBLE AND PEOPLE WHO COME TO CALIFORNIA FROM OUT OF STATE. A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT PUNCH CARD AND SAY WHAT THE HECK IS THIS THING? HOW DO YOU USE --

JESS>> -- THERE WAS A PROBLEM IN FLORIDA TOO.

DAN TOKAJI>> YEAH, EXACTLY RIGHT. SO, YOU KNOW, FOR EVERY SYSTEM, YOU'VE GOT TO DO VOTER EDUCATION. IF YOU DO THE VOTER EDUCATION WITH THE TOUCH-SCREEN SYSTEM AS THE COUNTY OF RIVERSIDE DEMONSTRATES, YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE VERY, VERY GOOD RESULTS AND VERY, VERY LOW ERROR RATES.

VAL>> NOW THE NEW TOUCH-SCREEN COMPUTER SCREENS WILL NOT ACTUALLY BE INSTALLED UNTIL 2004. THAT LEAVES US WITH A COUPLE MORE ELECTIONS WITH THE OLD UNRELIABLE SYSTEM. HOW UNRELIABLE IS IT AND IS CALIFORNIA AS VULNERABLE TO THE PROBLEMS THAT FLORIDA HAD?

DAN TOKAJI>> CALIFORNIA IS VULNERABLE. HOPEFULLY, ONE OF THE POSITIVE THINGS THAT WE'LL SEE COMING OUT OF THE FLORIDA ELECTION IS THAT THERE WILL BE A LITTLE MORE KNOWLEDGE AMONG VOTERS ABOUT THE PROBLEMS WITH PUNCH CARD MACHINES AND THE NEED TO CHECK THE CHAD. BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN WE'VE BEEN DOING WITH PUNCH CARD MACHINES WITH PROPER VOTER EDUCATION. BUT EVEN IF YOU DO PERFECT VOTER EDUCATION, YOU'RE STILL GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS WITH THIS TECHNOLOGY, WHICH IS WHY IT'S A VERY GOOD THING FOR CALIFORNIANS TO FINALLY BE GETTING RID OF THESE MACHINES.

JESS>> WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS AND THE ABSENTEE BALLOTS, IT URGES YOU TO PLEASE BE CAREFUL THAT THE CHAD IS PULLED COMPLETELY CLEAN THROUGH THE BOTTOM SIDE.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT. SO IN THE MEANTIME, UNTIL THE TOUCH SCREENS ARE HERE, CHECK FOR THOSE CHADS. (LAUGHTER)

DAN TOKAJI>> IN THE MEANTIME, CHECK FOR CHADS. EXACTLY RIGHT. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> DAN TOKAJI WITH THE ACLU OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE CHANGE.

DAN TOKAJI>> THANK YOU.

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
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VAL>> CAN YOU BE GAY AND ALSO BE AN ORTHODOX JEW? THE ANSWER FROM ORTHODOX RABBIS IS AN UNEQUIVOCAL NO, BUT A PROVOCATIVE NEW DOCUMENTARY IS CHALLENGING THAT ISSUE. IT'S CALLED "TREMBLING BEFORE G-D".

JESS>> THE DOCUMENTARY FOLLOWS A MAN NAMED MARK. AS A BOY, HE WENT TO JEWISH DAY SCHOOL, STUDIED THE TALMUD, HIS FATHER WAS AN ORTHODOX RABBI, BUT MARK WAS GAY. IN THE FILM, MARK TALKS WITH RABBIS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> JOINING US NOW IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE FILM, SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI, AND ONE OF THE FILM'S SUBJECTS FROM THE LOS ANGELES AREA. HIS NAME IS DAVID SILVERSTEIN. WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> IN THE SITUATION OF MARK, IN THE DOCUMENT NOT ONLY GAY, BUT A DRAG QUEEN.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> YES, THAT'S TRUE, AND ALSO LIVING WITH AIDS.

JESS>> WAS THAT MADE MORE OFFENSIVE TO ORTHODOX?

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> WELL, MARK IS THE EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO FELT LIKE THERE WAS NO PLACE FOR HIM BECAUSE HE WAS KICKED OUT OF SEVEN YESHIVAS FOR HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY. SO WHEN I MET MARK, HE WAS COMPLETELY NOT RELIGIOUS AND, OVER THE PROCESS OF MAKING THE FILM, HE ACTUALLY RETURNED TO ORTHODOXY AND NOW HE'S STUDYING TO BE A RABBI IN A YESHIVA IN LONDON.

JESS>> BUT NOT IN DRAG.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> THE DRAG CLOTHES HAVE BEEN GIVEN AWAY. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) HE'S STUDYING TO BE AN ORTHODOX RABBI?

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> YES, AND HE'S HASSIDIC NOW. HE LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE YOU WOULD SEE ON FAIRFAX, PICO, I MEAN, LONG SIDE CURLS, LONG BEARD, LONG BLACK COAT. HE'S REALLY RETURNED TO IT WITH FULL FORCE.

JESS>> BUT HE'S STILL GAY.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> HE'S STILL GAY.

VAL>> DAVID, WHAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE AND HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED WITH THIS PROJECT?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> WELL, ACTUALLY, I THINK IT WAS AROUND SIX YEARS AGO AT THE GAY-LESBIAN FILM FESTIVAL HERE IN LOS ANGELES, THERE WAS A "SHORT", I GUESS WHAT THEY CALL A WORK IN PROGRESS, A TEN-MINUTE BLURB OF FILM. WHEN I SAW IT, I THOUGHT THIS DESCRIBES MY LIFE AND I WAS JUST REALLY DRAWN TO IT. SO AFTER THE FILM, I WENT UP TO THE FILMMAKER AND I TOLD SANDI THAT I SHOULD BE IN THE FILM. HONESTLY, I'M REALLY A PRIVATE PERSON, SO IT WAS ATYPICAL OF MY BEHAVIOR BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S A VERY PRIVATE THING. I WOULD NEVER REALLY SHOUT FROM THE MOUNTAINTOPS SOMETHING VERY PERSONAL, BUT I WAS JUST DRAWN TO IT BECAUSE I FELT THIS WAS A MEANS TO A GOOD END.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP FROM THE DOCUMENTARY, "TREMBLING BEFORE G-D" AND YOU CAN TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS. HERE IT IS.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> THAT'S REALLY WHAT HE TOLD YOU?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> YEAH. I MEAN, LOOKING BACK, LIKE I SAID, IT LOOKS LIKE I'M AN IDIOT, BUT, HONESTLY, I WAS SO DESPERATE THAT I WOULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING. I WENT TO THERAPISTS PROBABLY FROM THE AGE OF 19 TO 31, VARIOUS THERAPISTS, VARIOUS RABBIS, LOOKING FOR VARIOUS WAYS TO CHANGE. I WAS JUST DESPERATE. I FIGURED I WAS RAISED TO THINK THAT YOU CAN'T BE GAY AND ORTHODOX AND --

VAL>> -- WELL, NOW WE SHOULD SAY THAT ORTHODOX JUDAISM, IT'S OFFICIAL POSITION IS ANTI-GAY. THEY CITE THAT CLASSIC CLAUSE OR PHRASE FROM THE BIBLE SAYING IT'S UNNATURAL FOR A MAN TO LIE WITH A MAN. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE VERY CLEAR ON THEIR POSITION. SO HOW CAN A YOUNG PERSON BE AN ORTHODOX JEW AND GAY?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> WELL, THE THING IS, IT'S NOT LIKE CHOOSING A BLACK SWEATER. I CHOSE TO WEAR THIS TODAY. I DIDN'T CHOOSE TO HAVE BLUE EYES.

VAL>> YES, BUT YOU COULD CHOOSE TO BE ORTHODOX JEW OR NOT. THAT'S A CHOICE.

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> RIGHT. YOU COULD CHOOSE TO BE ORTHODOX OR NOT. YOU CAN'T CHOOSE TO BE GAY OR NOT. THAT'S THE QUESTION.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> I MEAN, THE QUESTION IS, WHAT DOES THE TORAH PROHIBIT? DOES IT REALLY PROHIBIT HOMOSEXUALITY AS AN IDENTITY IN TERMS OF SAME SEX LOVING? THE TORAH ACTUALLY DOES NOT INCLUDE ANY PROHIBITION ON LESBIANISM, SO IT'S REALLY PROHIBITING, FROM MOST RABBIS' PERSPECTIVE, ONE SEXUAL ACT BETWEEN MEN AND THE ACT OF PENETRATION. SO IT ACTUALLY OPENS UP A LOT MORE QUESTIONS THAN WE ACTUALLY THINK.

JESS>> IT'S NOT CONFINED TO ORTHODOX JEWS TOO. LEVITICUS IS CITED FREQUENTLY AS SEX BETWEEN TWO MALES AS BEING AN ABOMINATION.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> EXACTLY. WHICH IS WHY, ALSO, WE'VE BEEN DOING INTERFAITH DIALOGUES WITH THE FILM EVERYWHERE WE GO.

JESS>> YOU CAN BE GAY, BUT AS LONG AS YOU DON'T ENGAGE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY, YOU CAN STILL BE ORTHODOX?

VAL>> IS THAT THE FINE LINE?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> THERE'S NO FINAL ANSWER ACTUALLY. IT'S A WORK IN PROGRESS.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> EXACTLY.

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> ACTUALLY, I HONESTLY THINK THAT, WITH THE HISTORY OF HOMOPHOBIA IN OUR SOCIETY WHICH IS CHANGING AND LESSENING OVER THE PAST NUMBER OF YEARS, PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE LIKE WE ARE TODAY, WHICH I NEVER WOULD HAVE IN A MILLION YEARS THOUGHT THAT I WOULD EVER BE DOING THIS OR EVEN DISCUSSING IT. SO RABBIS ARE BEGINNING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE, INCLUDING ORTHODOX RABBIS, AND BEGINNING TO CHANGE ATTITUDES, SO THINGS ARE CHANGING, HOPEFULLY.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT A CLIP FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> IN THE PRAYER YOU WROTE AND YOU PLACED IN THE WAILING WALL?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> RIGHT.

JESS>> WAS IT ANSWERED?

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> IT'S BEING ANSWERED. I MEAN, IF YOUR QUESTION IS, AM I AT PEACE WITH GOD AND BEING ORTHODOX AND BEING GAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A SIMPLE YES OR NO ANSWER. I'M BECOMING MUCH MORE AT PEACE THAN I WAS. I MEAN, TWENTY YEARS AGO, I WAS FAR FROM THAT AND TODAY I WOULD SAY I'M DEFINITELY GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO BEING AT PEACE. SO I'M ALSO A WORK IN PROGRESS, I GUESS, IN THAT RESPECT. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> BUT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES. CONSERVATIVE JEWS WOULD NOT HAVE THE SAME VIEW AS THE ORTHODOX AND CERTAINLY REFORMED JEWS WOULD NOT.

DAVID SILVERSTEIN>> BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. I MEAN, I GREW UP ORTHODOX. WHY SHOULDN'T I MAINTAIN AN ORTHODOX LIFE AND STILL BE WHO I AM? THAT'S THE POINT. THE POINT IS, IT'S WHO I AM. WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO -- NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH CONSERVATIVE OR REFORM, BUT I WAS RAISED THIS WAY AND I WANT TO STAY THIS WAY. I WANT TO STAY THAT WAY AND BE GAY AND THAT'S WHO I AM.

SANDI SIMCHA DUBOWSKI>> I MEAN, THERE ARE HOPEFUL SIGNS. TEN ORTHODOX SYNAGOGUES HAVE, IN JUST THE PAST FEW MONTHS, INVITED THE FILM TO SCREEN IN THE SYNAGOGUES.

VAL>> WHICH IS ANOTHER TOPIC, BUT WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING BY. WE REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR BEING HERE.

JESS>> THE FILM "TREMBLING BEFORE G-D" OPENED THIS WEEK AND IS PLAYING AT SELECT THEATERS.

VAL>> REMEMBER, YOU CAN FIND TRANSCRIPTS OF LIFE AND TIMES OR HEAR THE AUDIO OF LAST WEEK'S PROGRAMS THROUGH OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG. CHECK IT OUT.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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