2/28/02

LC020228

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> L.A.'S FORMER MAYOR IS IN THE FIGHT OF HIS POLITICAL LIFE. CAN RICHARD RIORDAN SURVIVE THE REPUBLICAN RACE FOR GOVERNOR AND WILL HE AND BILL SIMON STILL BE FRIENDS WHEN IT'S OVER?

RICHARD RIORDAN>> THE SHIRT I'M WEARING HAS BEEN A REPUBLICAN LONGER THAN BILL SIMON. (LAUGHTER)

BILL SIMON>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T TAKE A LOT OF STOCK IN THE POLLS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY CHANGE. BUT TODAY? I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN BEAT GRAY DAVIS IN THE POLLS TODAY.

VAL>> THEY PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE TO BRING US THE NEWS. TONIGHT WE'LL LOOK AT THE PERILS OF BEING A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT. NOTHING MADE THE DANGER MORE REAL THAN THE BRUTAL MURDER OF WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER, DANIEL PEARL. TONIGHT ANOTHER VETERAN OVERSEAS REPORTER SHARES HER EXPERIENCES AND TALKS ABOUT HOW OTHER JOURNALISTS LIKE DANNY PEARL ARE AT RISK.

JESS>> PATT MORRISON IS HERE TONIGHT AND SHE SAYS SOME LAWMAKERS MIGHT WANT TO THINK ABOUT GETTING A DAY JOB.

PATT>> PART-TIME GOVERNMENT. WOULD IT WORK IN AN AGE OF FULL-TIME PROBLEMS? ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> PLUS, THE HAUNTING IMAGES OF A VETERAN PHOTOGRAPHER WHO'S HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO HISTORY. HE'S BEEN ALL OVER THE WORLD, BUT HE'S BASED HERE IN LOS ANGELES. TONIGHT YOU'LL MEET THE MAN BEHIND THE LENS, PHOTOGRAPHER NICK UT.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.


VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

RICHARD RIORDAN HAS BEEN GETTING IT FROM ALL SIDES OF LATE, FROM THE DEMOCRATS IN ATTACK ADS PAID FOR BY GRAY DAVIS AND FROM THE REPUBLICANS, ESPECIALLY RIORDAN'S OLD FRIEND, BILL SIMON.

VAL>> THE ELECTION IS NEXT TUESDAY AND ALL THOSE BODY BLOWS HAVE TAKEN THEIR TOLL. RIORDAN TRAILS SIMON IN THE LATEST POLLS, BUT THE TWO CANDIDATES ARE SAVING THEIR BEST PUNCHES FOR THE FINAL STRETCH. TONIGHT CINNY KENNARD TRIES TO SEPARATE THE FACTS FROM THE FICTION IN A LIFE AND TIMES "REALITY CHECK".

CINNY KENNARD>> NOBODY EXPECTED THE FINAL STRETCH IN THE CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN RACE FOR GOVERNOR TO LOOK LIKE THIS. RICHARD RIORDAN FORCED TO DESPERATELY FIGHT FOR VOTES IN HIS OWN BACK YARD, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, TRYING TO HEAD OFF A PRIMARY DEFEAT BY A VIRTUAL UNKNOWN.

RICHARD RIORDAN>> THE SHIRT I'M WEARING HAS BEEN A REPUBLICAN LONGER THAN BILL SIMON. (LAUGHTER)

CINNY KENNARD>> BUT THAT'S NOT EXACTLY THE WAY MANY CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN VOTERS SEE IT. THE LATEST POLLS SAY BILL SIMON IS THE REAL REPUBLICAN. IN FACT, SIMON LEADS THE PACK IN THE LATEST SURVEY. HE'S CONFIDENT, BUT CAUTIOUS.

BILL SIMON>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T TAKE A LOT OF STOCK IN THE POLLS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY CHANGE. BUT TODAY? I'M THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN BEAT GRAY DAVIS IN THE POLLS TODAY.

CINNY KENNARD>> ACTUALLY, SIMON CAN THANK DAVIS FOR MUCH OF HIS RECENT SUCCESS. DAVIS POURED MORE THAN $8 MILLION DOLLARS INTO TELEVISION ADVERTISING, MOSTLY NEGATIVE ADS SMASHING RICHARD RIORDAN.

RICHARD RIORDAN>> I FEEL LIKE A PIÑATA BEING BEATEN BY BOTH SIDES.

CINNY KENNARD>> AND RIORDAN IS GETTING A ONE-TWO PUNCH. UNTIL A WEEK AGO, SIMON ADS FOCUSED ON HIS OWN RECORD, BUT HE SWITCHED TACTICS AND PUT UP COMMERCIALS ATTACKING HIS LONG-TIME FRIEND.

ANNOUNCER>> "DICK RIORDAN CALLED BILL CLINTON THE GREATEST LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD."

CINNY KENNARD>> SIMON'S ATTACK MAY BE EFFECTIVE, BUT IS IT ON TARGET?

BILL SIMON>> "DICK RIORDAN SAYS HE WON'T TELL ANYBODY HIS BUDGET PLAN UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION."

CINNY KENNARD>> FACT: RIORDAN SAYS NO LENGTHY BUDGET PLAN NOW BECAUSE THE STATE'S WHOPPING SURPLUS KEEPS GROWING. BUT RIORDAN HAS PUT OUT A PLAN FOR SEVERAL BUDGETS, INCLUDING ZERO-BASED BUDGETING.

ANNOUNCER>> "DICK RIORDAN SUPPORTED OR ADVOCATED FOR NEARLY A DOZEN TAX INCREASES OVER THE PAST DECADE."

CINNY KENNARD>> FACT: RIORDAN MAY HAVE SUPPORTED SEVERAL TAX HIKES, BUT NEVER DURING HIS EIGHT YEARS AS MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES. RIORDAN HAD EIGHT BALANCED BUDGETS, ALL WITHOUT A TAX INCREASE. RIORDAN DOES FIRE BACK, BUT HIS CHARGES ARE ALSO SUBJECT TO SOME QUESTIONS.

ANNOUNCER>> "WHO IS BILL SIMON? MISMANAGEMENT WAS CITED IN THE COLLAPSE OF A SAVINGS AND LOAN, RESULTING IN A $92 MILLION DOLLAR TAXPAYER-FUNDED BAILOUT."

CINNY KENNARD>> FACT: BILL SIMON WAS A BOARD MEMBER OF A FAMILY COMPANY INVOLVED IN BAILOUTS OF AILING SAVINGS AND LOANS, BUT IT WAS SIMON'S FATHER, THE FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY, WHO MANAGED THE ENTIRE BUSINESS TRANSACTION.

BILL SIMON>> AND IN THE HEADLINES THAT DICK CITED IN THE AD, "SIMON LED INSTITUTIONS SEIZED", THAT SIMON REFERS TO MY FATHER. DICK DISTORTS THE FACT THAT IT WAS MY FATHER AND NOT ME.

CINNY KENNARD>> AND RIORDAN ALSO HIT SIMON ON HIS VOTING RECORD.

ANNOUNCER>> "HE FAILED TO VOTE IN THIRTEEN OF TWENTY ELECTIONS. HE DIDN'T CARE ENOUGH TO VOTE ON ISSUES LIKE SCHOOL CONSTRUCTION, ANTI-CRIME MEASURES AND BILINGUAL EDUCATION."

CINNY KENNARD>> FACT: SIMON ADMITS TO NOT VOTING AND CALLS IT ALL A MISTAKE ON HIS PART.

BILL SIMON>> I'VE COME CLEAN ON ALL THE ONES I DIDN'T VOTE ON AND I'VE SAID I WAS SORRY. IT WAS A MISTAKE.

CINNY KENNARD>> AT THE END OF THE DAY, THESE ATTACKS COST LOTS OF MONEY AND RIORDAN AND SIMON HAVE BROUGHT BUCKETS OF IT TO THE CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT CRITICS MAY CONSIDER BOTH OF THEM PARTY OUTSIDERS. STILL, THE POLLS DO SAY THEY ARE THE ONLY CANDIDATES THAT CAN WIN IN NOVEMBER.

JESS>> CINNY KENNARD JOINS US NOW. ALSO WITH US IS ARNOLD STEINBERG, A VETERAN CALIFORNIA POLITICAL STRATEGIST. WE SHOULD MENTION HE'S THE FORMER ADVISER TO RICHARD RIORDAN, BUT ARNOLD IS SITTING OUT THIS GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN.

WHEN IT ALL COMES TO VOTING DAY, TURNOUT REALLY IS GOING TO MAKE THE DIFFERENCE, ISN'T IT?

CINNY KENNARD>> THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT AND THE PREDICTIONS DON'T LOOK THAT GOOD AT THIS POINT FOR RIORDAN BECAUSE IT IS FORECAST THAT 36 PERCENT OF THOSE THAT WOULD VOTE WOULD COME OUT ON ELECTION DAY AND THAT'S NOT A GOOD NUMBER BECAUSE THAT WOULD SUGGEST THAT PERHAPS THE ENERGIZED CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS THAT WOULD TEND TO VOTE FOR SIMON OR EVEN JONES WOULD BE THE ONES THAT WOULD RUSH TO THE VOTING BOOTHS. THE UNDECIDEDS WOULD STAY HOME. RIORDAN NEEDS A GOOD VOTER TURNOUT ON TUESDAY.

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES IT'S A CLICHÉ TO TALK ABOUT TURNOUT THAT, EVERY ELECTION DAY, TURNOUT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I THINK BILL SIMON AND BILL JONES WOULDN'T EVEN BE IN THE RACE IF DICK RIORDAN LAST YEAR HAD PUT TOGETHER A CREDIBLE EFFORT. BUT HE BEGAN TO STUMBLE EARLY BY SIMPLY TAKING THE WRONG APPROACH AND BY ALIENATING AND CONFRONTING THE REPUBLICAN CORE CONSTITUENCY INSTEAD OF MAKING NICE.

JESS>> YOU WORKED WITH HIM. HAVE YOU TOLD HIM THAT?

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> I DID. THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T STAY ABOARD. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES AS YOU GET OLDER, YOU GET LESS AND LESS PATIENCE. SO WHEN PEOPLE DON'T TAKE YOUR ADVICE, YOU FEEL THAT LIFE AND POLITICS AND CAMPAIGNS ARE TOUGH ENOUGH WITHOUT FIGHTING WITH YOUR OWN CLIENT.

VAL>> BUT DO YOU ASCRIBE TO THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT, IF BILL SIMON WINS THIS PRIMARY, WE CAN LOOK FOR ANOTHER FOUR YEARS WITH GRAY DAVIS AS OUR GOVERNOR?

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> NO, NOT AT ALL. I MEAN, I THINK THAT GRAY DAVIS IS INHERENTLY VULNERABLE. YOU KNOW, HE'S SPENT $6 MILLION OR $7 MILLION DOLLARS ATTACKING RIORDAN, BUT $3 MILLION OR $4 MILLION DOLLARS IN TV ADS BOOSTING HIMSELF. YET, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CURRENT POLLS, THE BEST WAY IS TO LOOK AT A PLACEBO AND THAT'S BILL JONES BECAUSE HE'S SPENT NOTHING ON TELEVISION SO FAR. AND AGAINST BILL JONES, GRAY DAVIS IS RUNNING JUST ABOUT NECK AND NECK AFTER SPENDING ALL THAT MONEY. SO DAVIS IS INHERENTLY VULNERABLE. I THINK THAT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE VIABILITY OF THE CANDIDATE, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY LOOK AT POSITIONS ON ABORTION OR GAY RIGHTS OR ECONOMICS. YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT OVERALL VIABILITY.

THE WAY ANY CANDIDATE IS GOING TO RUN A GENERAL ELECTION IS THE WAY HE RAN HIS PRIMARY. RIGHT NOW, IF I WERE A REPUBLICAN, I'D HAVE A LOT OF RESERVATIONS IF DICK RIORDAN RUNS. WILL HE RUN A BETTER GENERAL THAN HE RAN A PRIMARY? BY THE SAME TOKEN, BILL SIMON, IF HE WINS, DIDN'T REALLY WIN. YOU DON'T WANT TO RAIN ON SOMEBODY'S PARADE, BUT DICK RIORDAN LOST WITH GRAY DAVIS'S HELP. SO BILL SIMON HAS TO BE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO -- HE CAN SAY WHATEVER HE WANTS PUBLICLY IF HE COMES ON YOUR SHOW, BUT HE HAS TO BE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO SAY, "I DIDN'T REALLY WIN. NOW I'D BETTER REALLY GEAR UP FOR THE BIG RACE AGAINST GRAY DAVIS."

CINNY KENNARD>> CAN I JUST PUNCTUATE THAT IN THE SENSE THAT THIS ALL SPEAKS TO THE WAY THESE CAMPAIGNS ARE BEING RUN, TOO? IF YOU WERE TO VOTE FOR BEST CAMPAIGN IN THE SENSE OF WHO'S GOT THEIR OFFICE ENERGIZED, WHO'S RUNNING THEIR TRAINS OUT ON TIME, YOU LOOK AT GRAY DAVIS WHOSE CAMPAIGN RESPONDS IMMEDIATELY, THEIR COMMUNICATIONS OPERATION IS SOPHISTICATED. THIS HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE FOR RIORDAN.

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> WHICH IS EXTRAORDINARY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A CANDIDATE WHO IS WEALTHY, WHO WAS SUCCESSFUL IN BUSINESS AND HEADED A MAJOR LAW FIRM, WAS MAYOR OF THE SECOND LARGEST CITY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, HAD HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN PRIOR CAMPAIGNS AND PRIOR OFFICES, AND YET IS ALMOST A NOVICE IN RUNNING THIS TIME.

JESS>> BUT BACK TO "REALITY CHECK", IS THIS CAMPAIGN ANY DIFFERENT THAN MOST? THERE ARE CLEARLY DISTORTIONS ON BOTH SIDES.

CINNY KENNARD>> LET ME SAY, JESS, THAT CAMPAIGNS HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED. THEY KNOW NOW THAT WE TEST THESE ADS, SO THEY'RE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO MAKE TRUE AND FALSE ALLEGATIONS IN THESE ADS. INSTEAD, THEY HAVE A FINE WAY OF DISTORTING RATHER THAN DOING THIS IS WRONG AND THIS IS RIGHT.

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> PLUS THE SIMON AD "ADVOCATING FOR" OR SOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THOSE WORDS MEAN. WAS HE FOR A TAX INCREASE OR BEHIND ONE OR NOT?

CINNY KENNARD>> EXACTLY. THEY'VE BECOME VERY SOPHISTICATED IN KNOWING WHAT WE TV PEOPLE (LAUGHTER) ARE GOING TO DO WITH THOSE ADS, SO THEY'RE CAREFUL. SO THEY'RE LESS, PERHAPS, TRUE AND FALSE OR RIGHT AND WRONG THAT THEY USED TO BE, BUT --

VAL>> -- THEY'RE STILL COMING OUT NEGATIVE.

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHY -- IT'S INTERESTING. YOU SAY IS THE ELECTION ANY DIFFERENT? IF BILL JONES HAD $2 MILLION BUCKS, HE'D PROBABLY BE WINNING ON TUESDAY BECAUSE YOU HAVE ENOUGH REPUBLICANS TURNED OFF BY SIMON ATTACKING RIORDAN AND RIORDAN ATTACKING SIMON THAT THEY'D SAY LET'S GO FOR SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN AROUND FOR TWENTY YEARS.

JESS>> MIGHT THEY STILL DO IT?

ARNOLD STEINBERG>> I DON'T THINK SO BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN A STATEWIDE RACE AS OPPOSED TO A RACE FOR ASSEMBLY OR CONGRESS OR STATE SENATE, YOU'RE NOT VIABLE UNLESS YOU'RE ON THE TUBE, UNLESS PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU THERE, SO JONES IS SIMPLY NOT AN OPTION BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T SEE HIM.

VAL>> CINNY KENNARD, ARNOLD STEINBERG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR GIVING US YOUR OPINIONS AND WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO THE NEXT "REALITY CHECK". ONLY A FEW DAYS LEFT.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, A STORY OF POLITICS AND POLLUTION AND A LOOK AT WHY PUTTING ETHANOL IN CALIFORNIA'S GASOLINE COULD MEAN BIG TROUBLE FOR GRAY DAVIS.

PHILIP>> IT'S THE STATE'S LATEST BATTLE OVER POWER, BUT THIS TIME, IT'S THE KIND OF POWER THAT GOES INTO YOUR GAS TANK. IT'S ALL ABOUT ETHANOL, A BYPRODUCT OF THE FARM BELT THAT'S SUPPOSED TO MAKE GASOLINE BURN CLEANER, BUT THERE'S JUST ONE PROBLEM. CRITICS SAY IT DOESN'T WORK.

JESS>> DANNY PEARL GREW UP IN THE SAN FERNANDO VALLEY, BUT MANY MAY NEVER HAVE HEARD OF HIM UNTIL HE WAS KIDNAPPED AND ULTIMATELY SAVAGELY SLAIN WHILE TRYING TO DO HIS JOB. PEARL WAS THE WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTER WHO DIED IN PAKISTAN AT THE HANDS OF HIS KIDNAPPERS. THE TRAGEDY POINTS OUT JUST HOW DANGEROUS IT OFTEN IS TO BE A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT AND TONIGHT WE'LL HEAR FROM ANOTHER VETERAN JOURNALIST WHO KNOWS THE RISK FIRSTHAND.

VAL>> JOINING US NOW IS SIOBHAN DARROW. SHE IS A FORMER WAR CORRESPONDENT FOR CNN AND AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK CALLED "FLIRTING WITH DANGER". IT EXPLORES SOME OF HER ADVENTURES AS AN OVERSEAS REPORTER. YOU REALLY HAD SOME ADVENTURES, NO QUESTION. (LAUGHTER)

SIOBHAN DARROW>> THAT'S FOR SURE. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> IT'S THE ULTIMATE CLICHÉ, BUT YOU MUST HAVE BEEN ASKED MANY TIMES WHEN YOU WERE ON THOSE DEADLY ASSIGNMENTS, "WHAT'S A NICE GIRL LIKE YOU DOING IN A PLACE LIKE THIS?"

SIOBHAN DARROW>> THAT'S TRUE AND I THINK YOU DO HAVE TO BE A BIT MAD TO BE OUT THERE DOING IT. I MEAN, IT'S VERY DANGEROUS OUT THERE AND I THINK, FOR A LOT OF US, WE TRY TO FOOL OURSELVES INTO THINKING THAT, IF WE'RE PRUDENT AND WE'RE CAREFUL, WE'RE ABLE TO CALCULATE THE RISKS, BUT IT'S TOTALLY RANDOM.

JESS>> BUT AS A REPORTER, YOU DIDN'T START OUT TO COVER WAR, DID YOU?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> NO. IT'S NOT SOMETHING I EVER WANTED TO DO. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A FLAK JACKET WAS. I MEAN, I WAS IN LOVE WITH RUSSIA AND I WENT TO THE FORMER SOVIET UNION AND I COVERED THE BREAKUP OF THE SOVIET UNION. MY COUNTRY FELL APART AND WAR STARTED BREAKING OUT AND THERE I WAS.

VAL>> GIVE US AN IDEA OF WHAT KIND OF DANGEROUS SITUATION YOU CAN GET YOURSELF IN EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU'RE BEING SMART?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT'S TOTALLY RANDOM. WHEN I THINK BACK OVER THE YEARS TO THE FRIENDS THAT I HAVE HAD WHO HAVE BEEN SHOT, WHO'VE BEEN KILLED, OR WHO'VE BEEN KIDNAPPED, IT'S SOME OF THE MOST EXPERIENCED JOURNALISTS OUT THERE. IT'S COMPLETELY RANDOM. ONCE YOU SET FOOT IN A WAR ZONE, IT'S COMPLETELY UNPREDICTABLE. WE'RE CONSTANTLY MAKING LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS OVER A PICTURE. DO WE MOVE A BLOCK CLOSER TO GET A BETTER SHOT? YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THE BOMBS ARE GOING TO FALL.

VAL>> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE, LIKE A TIGHT SPOT THAT YOU FOUND YOURSELF IN.

SIOBHAN DARROW>> WELL, I THINK SOME OF MY MOST HORRIFIC EXPERIENCES WERE IN THE FORMER SOVIET ENCLAVE OF CHECHNYA. CHECHNYA WAS BEING CARPET-BOMBED BY THE SOVIETS AND THE BOMBS WERE FALLING FROM 5,000 FEET ABOVE. THEY DON'T DISCRIMINATE. WE HAD NO IDEA WHO THEY WERE GOING TO HIT. I MEAN, THERE WAS ONE DAY WHEN A YOUNG AMERICAN PHOTOGRAPHER WAS KILLED, A FEMALE, AND THE CHECHNYANS THOUGHT IT WAS ME.

JESS>> INDEED, YOU WERE REPORTED DEAD.

SIOBHAN DARROW>> I WASN'T REPORTED DEAD YET, BUT ALL OF CNN THOUGHT I WAS DEAD. THEY HAD BEEN CALLING MY MOTHER BEFORE THEY REPORTED ME DEAD AND, FORTUNATELY, THEY JUST GOT AN ANSWERING MACHINE AND THEY DIDN'T LEAVE A MESSAGE. IT WAS QUITE A SHOCK TO REALIZE THAT, FOR THE ENTIRE DAY, ALL MY COLLEAGUES THOUGHT I'D DIED.

VAL>> THAT WAS A CLOSE ONE. SO ARE JOURNALISTS MORE AT RISK THAN SOLDIERS? AFTER ALL, JOURNALISTS DON'T CARRY GUNS, ALTHOUGH COULD THEY CARRY GUNS IF THEY WANTED TO?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> NO, NO. JOURNALISTS ARE IMPARTIAL. I MEAN, THIS IS THE OUTRAGE OF THE DANNY PEARL STORY. HE WAS IN THERE TRYING TO TELL THEIR STORY. I MEAN, THE JOURNALISTS ARE IN THERE TRYING TO TELL BOTH SIDES. THEY'RE IMPARTIAL. PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT, IN A LOT OF THESE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, THEY DON'T HAVE A CONCEPT OF AN IMPARTIAL PRESS. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE PRESS ISN'T ON THE PAYROLL OF THE GOVERNMENT. IN MANY OF THEIR COUNTRIES, THAT'S THE CASE. SO JOURNALISTS SHOULD BE PROTECTED BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THERE TRYING TO TELL ALL SIDES, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, MORE AND MORE, THEY'RE BECOMING VICTIMS IN THESE STORIES.

JESS>> YOU MENTION CHECHNYA, BUT YOU ALSO COVERED A LOT OF OTHER INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT. YOU SEEM TO BE DRAWN TO WAR OR AT LEAST SENT TO WAR.

SIOBHAN DARROW>> WELL, I WAS CERTAINLY SENT TO WAR. I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK A BIT HOW I THINK I GREW UP IN A BIT OF A WAR ZONE. MY OWN PARENTS WERE ALWAYS AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS (LAUGHTER), SO I THINK ON SOME LEVEL I WAS COMFORTABLE WITH CONFLICT. BUT I WAS BASED IN MOSCOW AND THEN I WAS ALSO BASED IN LONDON, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH A FIRE STATION FOR CNN, SO I COVERED NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE BALKANS. ANYWHERE WHERE THERE WAS TROUBLE, THEY SENT ME.

VAL>> BUT YOU LEFT. YOU DECIDED "ENOUGH". WHAT CHANGED YOUR MIND?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> YOU KNOW, TO GO OUT THERE AND SEE THE HORROR OF WAR AND LIVES DESTROYED AND THE MISERY THAT WAR IS REQUIRES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF EMOTIONAL ARMORING JUST TO FUNCTION OUT THERE. I THINK I GOT TO THE POINT WHERE I WAS AFRAID NOT ONLY OF -- AND I WAS AFRAID EVERY DAY. I WAS AFRAID OF LOSING MY LIFE, BUT I WAS ALSO AFRAID OF LOSING MY EMOTIONAL LIFE. I WAS BECOMING DEADENED BY HAVING TO SEE THAT EVERY DAY. I WANTED A PERSONAL LIFE AND I REALLY FELT THAT I WAS NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE IT IF I CONTINUED ON THAT TRACK.

JESS>> IS IT DIFFERENT FOR WOMEN THAN IT IS FOR MEN?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> YOU KNOW, IN SOME WAYS, YES, AND SOME WAYS, NO. I FEEL THAT I NEVER HAD PROBLEMS AS A WOMAN. I THINK BEING A CNN CORRESPONDENT TRUMPED BEING A WOMAN. PEOPLE WANTED THEIR STORY TOLD, SO IF THEY HAD TO TELL IT TO A WOMAN -- I WORKED IN VERY MACHO CULTURES OFTEN. I DO REMEMBER ARRIVING AT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY BASE IN CHECHNYA AND THE RUSSIAN COMMANDER LAUGHED AT ME AND MY CAMERAWOMAN. I MEAN, HE DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT WE REALLY WANTED TO GO IN ONE OF HIS HELICOPTERS TO THE FRONT LINES. HE LAUGHED AT US FOR BASICALLY TWO DAYS AND THEN FINALLY HE REALIZED WE WERE SERIOUS AND PUT US IN HIS HELICOPTER.

THE HELICOPTER PILOT TOLD US TO SIT ON OUR FLAK JACKETS BECAUSE THE CHECHNYANS WERE FIRING FROM THE GROUND. WE SAT ON OUR FLAK JACKETS AND ME AND MY CAMERAWOMAN WERE OKAY, BUT OUR SOUND TECH MALE THREW UP (LAUGHTER), SO I HAD THE LAST LAUGH WITH THAT COMMANDER. BUT, NO, I FEEL THAT -- I THINK WOMEN MAYBE TEND TO LOOK MORE FOR THE HUMAN COST OF WAR. I DIDN'T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THE TOYS, YOU KNOW, THE TOYS AND THE TACTICS. I WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT THE COST AND THAT MAY BE MORE WOMEN --

VAL>> -- BUT YOUR WAR DAYS ARE OVER AND YOU'RE NOW SETTLING DOWN AND HOPEFULLY HAVE A FAMILY HERE IN LOS ANGELES, IS THAT RIGHT?

SIOBHAN DARROW>> THAT'S RIGHT. I'M LEAVING IT TO THE YOUNGER, BRAVER, MORE ENERGETIC SOULS TO DO THIS VERY IMPORTANT WORK.

VAL>> WELL, HOPEFULLY, THEY CAN DRAW SOME LESSONS FROM YOUR BOOK. THANK YOU SO MUCH, SIOBHAN DARROW.

SIOBHAN DARROW>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

VAL>> ONCE AGAIN, THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK, PROPERLY TITLED "FLIRTING WITH DANGER".

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
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JESS>> PATT MORRISON WAXES NOSTALGIC EVERY SO OFTEN. IN TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON, SHE'S THINKING THAT AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS PASSED MIGHT BE READY TO COME AROUND AGAIN.

PATT>> EVERY SO OFTEN, LIKE THE 17-YEAR LOCUST, BUT MORE FREQUENT, THE IDEA HATCHES AND TAKES WING AGAIN: BRINGING BACK A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE IN CALIFORNIA. MOST STATES ALREADY HAVE PART-TIME LEGISLATURES MEETING FOR A FEW MONTHS EVERY OTHER YEAR, BUT MOST STATES DO NOT HAVE, AS CALIFORNIA DOES, THE NATION'S BIGGEST POPULATION OR THE WORLD'S FIFTH BIGGEST ECONOMY.

THE LEGISLATURE IS PART-TIME IN NEVADA AND TEXAS, THE SAME STATE WHERE THE GOVERNOR IS ONLY THE FIFTH OR SIXTH MOST POWERFUL FIGURE IN HIS OWN ADMINISTRATION, LESS POWERFUL EVEN THAN THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT A RECENT FAIRLY POWERLESS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS HAS NOW BECOME THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE WORLD.

TO THE GOOD, A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE MEANS POLITICIANS WHO WORK AT "REAL" JOBS, AS THEY SAY. THEY'RE TEACHERS OR STORE OWNERS OR INSURANCE AGENTS OR OFTEN LAWYERS. THEY ARE IN, WHAT WE ARE FOND OF CALLING, THE REAL WORLD. BUT PART-TIME LEGISLATORS EARN THEIR LIVING IN BUSINESSES THEY HAVE TO VOTE ON. PEOPLE MAY STEER BUSINESS TO THEM JUST TO GET IN GOOD WITH A LAWMAKER. AN ARIZONA LEGISLATOR WHO OWNED A DAYCARE CENTER TRIED TO NARROW THE DEFINITION OF CHILD ABUSE AND WIPE ALL COMPLAINTS ABOUT DAYCARE CENTERS OFF THE BOOKS AFTER TWO MONTHS.

AND GOVERNMENT NOWADAYS IS, WELL, INFINITELY MORE COMPLICATED. IF LEGISLATORS DON'T BECOME PROFESSIONALS IN SUBJECTS LIKE HEALTHCARE, THERE ARE ALWAYS OTHER PROFESSIONALS TO STEP IN TO SHOW THEM THE WAY. THEY'RE CALLED LOBBYISTS. FULL-TIME LEGISLATORS EARN A STATE SALARY, WHICH SHOULD PREVENT ONE KIND OF CORRUPTION, BUT THEY RAISE CAMPAIGN FUNDS, WHICH OPENS A WHOLE DIFFERENT CAN OF WORMS AND A WHOLE DIFFERENT CAN OF LOOPHOLES.

CALIFORNIA HAD A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE UNTIL 1967 AND THERE'S A LOT OF NOSTALGIA FOR A LEGISLATURE THAT PASSED LANDMARK WATER AND HIGHWAY AND HIGHER EDUCATION BILLS. BUT IF YOU CAN'T SEE THAT ERA VERY CLEARLY, IT'S BECAUSE OF THE SMOKE-FILLED ROOMS WHERE THE PUBLIC'S BUSINESS WAS LITERALLY DONE IN PRIVATE, OUT OF THE PUBLIC EYE OR PUBLIC SCRUTINY.

AND BECAUSE OF TERM LIMITS, IN SOME WAYS WE HAVE A PART-TIME LEGISLATURE ONCE AGAIN. MAYBE IN THEIR OFF YEARS, THEY COULD JOIN AMERICORPS. DO THEM GOOD TO GET OUT AND MEET PEOPLE WHO AREN'T CONTRIBUTORS OR CONSTITUENTS. SO, EITHER YOU GET THE BEST POLITICIANS MONEY CAN BUY OR YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

VAL>> HE HAS CAPTURED IMAGES THAT ARE BURNED INTO THE NATIONAL MEMORY AND, WHILE YOU MAY NEVER HAVE HEARD HIS NAME, YOU'VE CERTAINLY SEEN HIS PICTURES.

JESS>> NICK UT HAS HAD A FRONT ROW SEAT TO HISTORY. HIS PHOTOGRAPHS ARE LEGENDARY, FROM THIS YOUNG GIRL IN SOUTHEAST ASIA WHOSE CLOTHES WERE BURNED AWAY BY NAPALM TO THE IMAGES OF RONALD REAGAN ABOUT TO ADDRESS THE NATION. AND WHILE NICK UT HAS TRAVELED THE WORLD FOR MORE THAN THREE DECADES, HE HAS MADE LOS ANGELES HIS HOME. MUCH OF HIS WORK IS ON DISPLAY AT A SPECIAL LOS ANGELES EXHIBIT.

VAL>> AND JOINING US NOW IS PHOTOJOURNALIST, NICK UT. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

NICK UT>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> NICK, THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT YOUR PHOTOGRAPH OF THE YOUNG GIRL WITH THE CLOTHING BURNED AWAY FROM HER BODY IS YOUR MOST FAMOUS PHOTOGRAPH. IT'S INTERESTING THAT, TODAY, THERE WERE DETAILS RELEASED OF A NIXON WHITE HOUSE TAPE WHERE THE FORMER PRESIDENT LOOKED AT THAT PHOTOGRAPH AND SAID, "THAT MIGHT BE FAKED." DID THAT SHOCK YOU?

NICK UT>> YEAH, SHOCKED. [INAUDIBLE] I NEVER HEAR IT BEFORE. BUT THE PICTURE, THERE WAS MANY MEDIA THERE, NOT BY MYSELF. LIKE, YOU KNOW, ALL WITNESSES THERE.

JESS>> IN FACT, THERE WAS A VIDEOTAPE.

NICK UT>> VIDEO NBC THERE TOO.

VAL>> BUT STILL THEY ACTUALLY QUESTIONED THE AUTHENTICITY OF IT. THAT'S AMAZING.

JESS>> WAS IT A GREAT ASSET OR A HANDICAP COVERING THE VIETNAM WAR BEING VIETNAMESE?

NICK UT>> BEING VIETNAMESE.

VAL>> WAS IT MUCH MORE OF AN ADVANTAGE THAN A DISADVANTAGE?

NICK UT>> ADVANTAGE, YEAH.

JESS>> WELL, YOU STARTED AT SIXTEEN.

NICK UT>> I STARTED AT SIXTEEN WHEN [INAUDIBLE].

JESS>> YOU COULD GET PLACES NO ONE ELSE COULD?

NICK UT>> MY BROTHER WAS KILLED BEFORE I HAD A JOB AP.

VAL>> YOUR BROTHER WAS KILLED?

JESS>> AND WHEN DID YOU LEAVE?

NICK UT>> I LEFT SAIGON 1975 AND COME TO L.A. AND WENT TO JAPAN TWO YEARS AND BACK L.A. AGAIN 1977.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS ALL INVOLVING THIS YOUNG GIRL WHOSE NAME WAS --

NICK UT>> -- KIM PHUC.

VAL>> KIM PHUC, OKAY. WAS THIS --

NICK UT>> THAT PICTURE JUNE 8, 1972. WE ARE EARLY MORNING THERE.

JESS>> THAT SHOWS THE NAPALM HITTING THE GROUND.

NICK UT>> YOU SEE ALL BACKGROUND ALL MEDIA STANDING RIGHT THERE.

VAL>> I SEE. THIS, OF COURSE, IS THE VERY FAMOUS ONE THAT CAME OUT AND REALLY, I THINK, HELPED CHANGE PEOPLES' ATTITUDE TOWARD THAT WAR.

NICK UT>> AFTER I TOOK THE PICTURES, HER BODY BURNED SO BAD AND I DON'T WANT SHE DIE. THEN I BRING HER TO MY VAN.

VAL>> YOU BROUGHT HER TO YOUR VAN?

NICK UT>> TOOK TO MY VAN AND FROM THERE ABOUT TWENTY MILES TO HOSPITAL.

VAL>> YOU ACTUALLY TRANSPORTED HER TO THE HOSPITAL?

NICK UT>> I SAVE HER LIFE, YEAH.

VAL>> AND THEN HERE -- WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE?

NICK UT>> THERE THEY WATER HER BODY AFTER THAT. THEN I TOOK HER IN MY CAR.

VAL>> SO THEY POURED WATER OVER HER, RIGHT?

NICK UT>> YEAH. THAT ONE HER GRANDMOTHER CARRY ONE-YEAR-OLD BOY. HE DIE LATER, YEAH. SHE HAD LITTLE BROTHER.

JESS>> THIS IS --

NICK UT>> THAT HER BODY BURNS IN THE BACK.

JESS>> AFTER SHE WAS RECOVERING? SKIN GRAFTS?

NICK UT>> SKIN GRAFTING.

JESS>> LONG, PAINFUL RECOVERY.

NICK UT>> YEAH.

VAL>> BUT SHE SURVIVED TO GROW UP?

JESS>> AND LOOK AT HER NOW.

NICK UT>> NOW SHE MARRY, HAVE TWO CHILDREN. I COVER STORY ABOUT 25 YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF NAPALM, BUT NEXT YEAR BE THIRTY YEAR NAPALM STORY ANNIVERSARY. I KEEP CALL HER ONE A WEEK.

VAL>> YOU CALL HER STILL?

NICK UT>> ONE A WEEK.

VAL>> ONE TIME A WEEK?

NICK UT>> YEAH. SHE LIVE IN TORONTO, CANADA.

VAL>> SHE MOVED TO CANADA?

NICK UT>> YEAH.

VAL>> NOW THIS IS --

JESS>> -- THIS IS TYPICAL OF THE --

NICK UT>> -- THIS IS PICTURE I TOOK IN CAMBODIA.

JESS>> SLOSHING THROUGH --

NICK UT>> YEAH. U.S. SOLDIER IN CAMBODIA.

VAL>> IN CAMBODIA STILL.

NICK UT>> AND BOXING IN LAS VEGAS.

JESS>> YOU WENT FROM ONE VIOLENT ACT TO ANOTHER. (LAUGHTER) WAS IT TOUGH MAKING THE SWITCH FROM BEING A WAR PHOTOGRAPHER, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE FOR SO MANY YEARS, TO COVERING OTHER EVENTS IN THE WORLD?

NICK UT>> WHEN IT COME FIFTH WAR, YOU KNOW, I TRAVEL TO DMV WITH AMERICAN SOLDIER ON HO CHI MIN TRAIL. THEN I WENT TO HOLLYWOOD AND EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME.

VAL>> IT WAS MORE DIFFICULT IN HOLLYWOOD?

NICK UT>> I ATTEND BASEBALL, FOOTBALL I COVER. I NEVER --

JESS>> -- AND OCCASIONAL FOOTBALL PLAYERS YOU ALSO COVERED? O.J. SIMPSON.

NICK UT>> O.J. SIMPSON. I COVERED THAT STORY. [INAUDIBLE] ASSIGNMENT IN L.A. NOW.

VAL>> AND THIS IS A WONDERFUL PICTURE OF RONALD REAGAN. I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS ONE BEFORE.

NICK UT>> RONALD REAGAN, THE PRESIDENT.

VAL>> AND HE WAS GETTING READY FOR A SPEECH?

NICK UT>> SPEAK, YEAH.

JESS>> YOU'VE WON EVERY AWARD FOR PHOTOJOURNALISM THERE IS AROUND, BUT YOU CONTINUE TO WORK AND I ASSUME WILL FOR SOME TIME?

NICK UT>> YEAH.

JESS>> WILL YOU GO BACK TO VIETNAM SOON?

NICK UT>> I HOPE TO GO THIS SUMMER AGAIN. MAYBE DO MORE FEATURE STORY IN VIETNAM. I WENT BACK THREE, FOUR TIME ALREADY FOR AP, 1989, COVER MIA STORY, AND WE OPEN AP HANOI.

VAL>> NOW WHEN YOU SEE WARS TAKING PLACE, YOU KNOW, IN AFGHANISTAN OR CHECHNYA, DO YOU HAVE AN URGE TO BE THERE?

NICK UT>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE WAR VIETNAM IN AFGHANISTAN. NEVER HAVE PICTURE LIKE VIETNAM ANYMORE. DIFFERENT TODAY BECAUSE THEY NOT ALLOW ANY PHOTOJOURNALISTS TOO CLOSE TO COVER.

VAL>> SO YOU COULDN'T REALLY BE ABLE TO GET IN LIKE YOU DID IN VIETNAM?

NICK UT>> NOT LIKE VIETNAM. IN VIETNAM, THEY ALLOW YOU GO EVERYWHERE YOU WANT.

JESS>> AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO SUGGEST THAT THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THE UNITED STATES DID NOT PREVAIL IN VIETNAM.

NICK UT>> THAT TRUE [INAUDIBLE].

VAL>> NEVERTHELESS, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE KIND OF MISSING SOMETHING OR --

NICK UT>> I MISS [INAUDIBLE] WAR. YOU KNOW, I GO TO PAKISTAN OR AFGHANISTAN SOMEDAY. I LIKE TO GO THERE.

VAL>> YOU'D LIKE TO GO THERE?

NICK UT>> YEAH, GO THERE AND DO FEATURE THERE.

JESS>> BUT LOS ANGELES IS HOME NOW.

NICK UT>> HOME NOW, YEAH, FAMILY, CHILDREN.

VAL>> REALLY?

NICK UT>> YEAH, HAVE TWO KIDS.

VAL>> DO ANY OF THEM WANT TO BE A PHOTOJOURNALIST LIKE THEIR DAD?

NICK UT>> NO, DIDN'T WANT. THEY SAY TOO BUSY FOR THEM. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> SO, IN LOS ANGELES, WHAT HAS BEEN SOME OF YOUR FAVORITE ASSIGNMENTS? BECAUSE WE SAW THERE THAT YOU'VE COVERED FIRES. I MEAN, YOU STILL SEEM TO FIND THOSE DANGEROUS MOMENTS. WHAT ARE SOME OF YOUR FAVORITE KINDS OF THINGS TO PHOTOGRAPH?

NICK UT>> YOU KNOW, FOR MY JOB, WE COVER GENERAL ASSIGNMENT. EVERY ASSIGNMENT DIFFERENT EVERY DAY.

JESS>> BUT YOU LIKE HUMAN FEATURE STORIES, TOO?

NICK UT>> FEATURED STORIES, YEAH.

VAL>> IS THAT ONE OF YOUR FAVORITES?

NICK UT>> THAT'S FAVORITE, YEAH.

JESS>> AN ANTITHESIS OF WAR.

NICK UT>> TO WAR, YEAH.

VAL>> WELL, YOU'VE DONE A FANTASTIC JOB OF CAPTURING HISTORY AND WE'RE VERY GLAD THAT YOU COULD JOIN US TODAY.

JESS>> INDEED, MAKING SOME HISTORY.

VAL>> NICK UT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE SHOULD MENTION THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE A RETROSPECTIVE OF YOUR WORK ON EXHIBIT.

JESS>> IT'S A GREAT EXHIBIT. "FROM HELL TO HOLLYWOOD". IT'S ON DISPLAY THROUGH APRIL 12 AT THE PERFECT EXPOSURE GALLERY ON WEST SIXTH STREET IN LOS ANGELES. THEIR WEBSITE IS WWW.THEPERFECTEXPOSURE.COM.

VAL>> A FANTASTIC WAY TO LOOK AT HISTORY THROUGH THE CAREER OF NICK UT. THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. YOU CAN LISTEN TO RECENT PROGRAMS OF LIFE AND TIMES. YOU CAN DO SO BY GOING TO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND LISTENING TO STREAMING AUDIO.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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