3/18/02

LC020318

JESS>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS CRACKING DOWN ON SEX ABUSERS IN THE PRIESTHOOD, BUT MANY VICTIMS ASK WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG?

MARY GRANT>> THEY'VE CIRCLED THE WAGONS, THEY'VE PROTECTED EACH OTHER, THEY'VE KEPT ALL ABUSE ALLEGATIONS SILENT AND I THINK THAT'S WHY MORE ABUSE HAPPENS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAN IN OTHER INSTITUTIONS.

JESS>> HE WANTED TO RECONNECT WITH THE BIBLE, SO HE WENT TO THE DESERT OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND TONIGHT AUTHOR, BRUCE FEILER, RECALLS HIS EXPERIENCES AT THE ACTUAL PLACES OF THE BIBLE'S MOST COMPELLING STORIES.

BRUCE FEILER>> THE THING ABOUT THE DESERT IS YOU BECOME SO TRANSFORMED AND YOU SORT OF TURN TO SOMEONE OR SOMETHING HIGHER. AS AVNER, MY ARCHEOLOGIST, LIKES TO SAY, YOU CAN'T EVEN SPEND THREE DAYS IN THE DESERT AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

JESS>> A PLEA OF INSANITY IS A FREQUENT DEFENSE IN CRIMINAL CASES, ESPECIALLY MURDER, BUT JURIES ARE OFTEN SKEPTICAL, AS EVIDENCED IN THE CASE OF ANDREA YATES, THE HOUSTON WOMAN WHO DROWNED HER FIVE CHILDREN. TONIGHT WE'LL LOOK AT WHAT IT TAKES TO PROVE INSANITY AND WHY IT RARELY WORKS IN COURT.

THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I'M JESS MARLOW. VAL HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

IMAGINE A CHILD IS SEXUALLY ABUSED BY A TRUSTED ADULT, BUT WHEN THE INCIDENT IS REPORTED, NOTHING HAPPENS. TONIGHT YOU'LL MEET A SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WOMAN WHO CLAIMS SHE LIVED THAT NIGHTMARE WHEN SHE WAS MOLESTED BY A PRIEST IN ORANGE COUNTY. HER STORY IS LIKE MANY OF THE ONES BEING TOLD ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS EXPELLING SCORES OF SO-CALLED PREDATOR PRIESTS. BUT AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE VICTIMS WANT TO KNOW WHY IT TOOK SO LONG FOR THE CHURCH TO ACT.

GAY>> EVEN NOW, DECADES AFTER IT HAPPENED, MARY GRANT SAYS FLASHBACKS STILL HAUNT HER.

MARY GRANT>> HE PARKED THE CAR AND STARTED TELLING ME THAT GOD WANTED HIM TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCE WITH ME, THAT IT WAS HARMLESS IF HE TOUCHED ME, THAT IT WOULD BE PERFECTLY HARMLESS, THAT IT WAS BLESSED BY GOD AND THEN HE STARTED MOLESTING ME. THEN HE ALSO TOOK MY HAND AND PUT IT BETWEEN HIS LEGS AND TOLD ME THAT GOD WANTED ME TO TOUCH HIM TOO.

GAY>> NOW A SHOE STORE MANAGER, GRANT WAS JUST THIRTEEN WHEN SHE SAYS SHE WAS MOLESTED BY THE PRIEST FROM ST. NORBERT'S CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE CITY OF ORANGE. THE ABUSE CONTINUED FOR SIX YEARS, BUT MARY DIDN'T TELL.

MARY GRANT>> PRIESTS ARE SOMEHOW REPRESENTATIVES OF GOD AND THAT THEY'RE NOT TO BE QUESTIONED.

GAY>> HER PARENTS EVENTUALLY LEARNED OF THE ABUSE AND NOTIFIED CHURCH OFFICIALS, BUT TO THE FAMILY'S AMAZEMENT, NOTHING WAS DONE.

MARY GRANT>> WHEN I CAME FORWARD, THE KNEE-JERK REACTION BY THE CHURCH WAS NOT TO PROTECT ME OR OTHER CHILDREN FROM FURTHER HARM, BUT TO PROTECT THE PRIEST, TO SILENCE ME, TO TRANSFER HIM TO ANOTHER PARISH WHERE HE DIDN'T HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THE CRIMES.

GAY>> GRANT SAYS SHE TRIED TO BLOCK THE EXPERIENCE FROM HER MIND UNTIL SHE STARTED HAVING FLASHBACKS WHEN SHE WAS IN HER THIRTIES. FINALLY, SHE WENT TO AUTHORITIES.

MARY GRANT>> SO I REPORTED IT TO THE POLICE AND THE POLICE SAID THAT THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS HAD EXPIRED FOR CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.

GAY>> SO MARY GRANT FILED THE CIVIL LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CHURCH. RATHER THAN GO TO COURT, THE CHURCH PAID HER A SETTLEMENT OF $25,000 IN 1991. BUT THE CATHOLIC PRIEST WHO ALLEGEDLY ASSAULTED GRANT STAYED ON AND MOVED FROM CHURCH TO CHURCH IN ORANGE COUNTY. ONLY LAST YEAR WAS THE PRIEST FINALLY FORCED TO RESIGN. HE ADMITTED TO THE LOS ANGELES TIMES THAT HE HAD SEXUAL AFFAIRS WITH WOMEN.

MARY GRANT>> AND THE CHURCH HAS PROVIDED THAT AND FOSTERED THAT ABUSE AMONG PRIESTS AND HAS -- THEY'VE CIRCLED THE WAGONS, THEY'VE PROTECTED EACH OTHER, THEY'VE KEPT ALL ABUSE ALLEGATIONS SILENT AND I THINK THAT'S WHY MORE ABUSE HAPPENS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAN IN OTHER INSTITUTIONS.

GAY>> THE ISSUE OF PRIESTS ABUSING CHILDREN IS NOT NEW. THE RECENT CASE OF A BOSTON PRIEST ACCUSED OF MOLESTING 130 CHILDREN OVER THIRTY YEARS HAS PUT THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE PRIESTHOOD.

MARY GRANT>> WE'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD AND JUST GO AROUND THE ROOM AND INTRODUCE OURSELVES.

GAY>> HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, MARY GRANT'S EXPERIENCE PROMPTED HER TO START A SUPPORT GROUP FOR OTHER VICTIMS LIKE HER. IT'S CALLED S.N.A.P., SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS.

>> I WAS ABUSED AS A TEEN. I WAS MOLESTED OVER A NUMBER OF YEARS. IT WOULD ALWAYS HAPPEN IN THE RECTORY.

GAY>> TWICE A MONTH, THE GROUP MEETS IN LONG BEACH AND THE ALLEGATIONS POUR OUT.

>> MY FATHER WAS IN THE SEMINARY LIKE FIFTEEN --

>> -- TWELVE OR THIRTEEN.

>> -- AND HE WAS SEXUALLY MOLESTED BY ONE OF THE HEAD PRIESTS, THE RECTOR, AND IN TURN AFTER THAT, I BECAME A VICTIM OF HIM.

GAY>> THEIR STORIES ARE DIFFERENT, BUT EACH HAS A COMMON THREAD. THE VICTIMS SAY THEY WERE MADE TO FEEL AS THOUGH THE INCIDENTS WERE THEIR FAULT. MANY HAVE SINCE LEFT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

JAMIE'S MOTHER BELIEVES THE CHURCH HAS A LONG HISTORY OF SECRECY ON SEX ABUSE, SO THE INCIDENTS CONTINUED.

>> HOW CAN THEY TALK IN THE GOSPEL ON SUNDAY TRUTH AND LIGHT AND GRASPING THE TRUTH WHEN THEY ARE IN THE DARKNESS AND HIDING LIKE LITTLE COCKROACHES?

GAY>> BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS IT'S ADOPTING A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY ON SEXUAL ABUSE. IN RECENT WEEKS, L.A.'S CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY DISMISSED A DOZEN PRIESTS AND THE L.A. POLICE DEPARTMENT SAYS IT'S REVIEWING THE CASES. BUT MARY GRANT SAYS SHE'S DOUBTFUL THE CHURCH TRULY HAS TURNED OVER A NEW LEAF. IN LONG BEACH, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS ARTHUR JONES. HE IS EDITOR-AT-LARGE FOR THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER. AND THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER ACTUALLY BEGAN REPORTING ON THESE INSTANCES NEARLY TWENTY YEARS AGO, WASN'T IT?

ARTHUR JONES>> WE BROKE THE STORIES FIRST IN '83 AND CAME BACK WITH ANOTHER BIG ONE IN '85. IT WAS ALWAYS THE SAME POINT THAT WE WERE TRYING TO MAKE. THE CHURCH HAS GOT A SCANDAL ON ITS HANDS, THE VICTIMS WERE BEING PUSHED TO ONE SIDE, THE PRIESTS WERE BEING PROTECTED AND THE FINANCIAL PAYOUTS STARTED.

JESS>> AND IN TWENTY YEARS, DID YOU AFFECT MUCH CHANGE AS A RESULT OF YOUR REPORTING?

ARTHUR JONES>> NO. BY THE EARLY 90'S, THERE WAS A COMMITTEE SET UP BY THE U.S. BISHOPS, BUT THERE WAS NO GENERAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM OR, IF THERE WAS, IT WASN'T PUT INTO PRACTICE. THERE WAS NO GUIDELINE THAT SAYS, "LET'S JUST GET THIS THING STOPPED HERE. LET'S STOP IT NOW."

JESS>> YOU'VE WRITTEN A NUMBER OF BOOKS INCLUDING "NEW CATHOLICS FOR A NEW CENTURY: THE U.S. CHURCH TODAY AND WHERE IT'S HEADED". WHERE IS IT HEADED NOW?

ARTHUR JONES>> BECAUSE OF THIS, YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER ROUND OF PEOPLE BEING BUFFETED. IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE CHURCH YEARS TO SHAKE OFF THIS LATEST ROUND OF SEX SCANDALS. IT'S GOING TO STICK TO CATHOLICS THE WAY POLYGAMY STICKS TO MORMONS. IT'S JUST SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND AND NOBODY CAN DEFEND.

JESS>> NON-CATHOLICS WOULD INVARIABLY SAY, "WELL, CELIBACY IS AT THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM." IS THAT TRUE?

ARTHUR JONES>> I THINK CHURCH TEACHING OF SEXUALITY IS PART OF THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. THIS IS A CHURCH WHICH BEGINS WITH IDOLIZING CELIBACY AND VIRGINITY, BUT IT DOESN'T GIVE THE SAME CREDIT TO MARRIED SEXUALITY, CONJUGAL SEX. THE CLASSIC EXAMPLE, A COUPLE THAT WAS RECENTLY CANONIZED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAD GIVEN UP SEX FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES OF THEIR MARRIAGE. WELL, ANY GROUP OF CATHOLIC COUPLES MARRIED FOR FIFTY YEARS WILL TELL YOU THAT "AIN'T NECESSARILY SO" AND THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST BASIS FOR BUILDING A HAPPY MARRIAGE ON.

JESS>> THERE'VE BEEN SOME VERY SEVERE CHARGES IN THAT, IN GAY YEE'S REPORT, MARY GRANT SAYS THE CHURCH "FOSTERED" SUCH ABUSE. FOSTERED?

ARTHUR JONES>> FOSTERED IS A BIT STRONG. WHAT YOU'RE WORKING AGAINST IS A CLUB MENTALITY, A VERY OLD CLUB, A 2,000 YEAR OLD CLUB. ON THE VATICAN LEVEL, IT'S HEAR NO EVIL, SEE NO EVIL, OR ADMIT NO EVIL. SO WHAT YOU'VE GOT HERE IS STONEWALLING, THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE INSTITUTION HAS PUSHED THESE PRIESTS AROUND AND PROTECTED THEM. FOSTERING? TOO STRONG. PROTECTING THEM? CERTAINLY. AND FAILING TO FACE UP TO WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON.

JESS>> PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SHOCKED BY THE NUMBER OF CASES, PARTICULARLY THE ONES MOST RECENTLY REVEALED, AND THEY SEEM TO BE LIKE DOMINOES. THEY SEEM TO BE FALLING. BUT THERE'S ALSO GREAT CONCERN OVER WHAT THIS IS COSTING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. DO YOU SHARE THAT CONCERN?

ARTHUR JONES>> WELL, THE QUESTION IS AT WHAT POINT --

JESS>> -- IN TERMS OF MONEY. (LAUGHTER)

ARTHUR JONES>> AT WHAT POINT CAN A DIOCESE NO LONGER AFFORD ITS OTHER PROGRAMS? AND IF YOU GO BACK TO THE RECENT HISTORY, SAY THE LAST FIVE OR SEVEN YEARS OF PAYOUTS, IT MEANS SOCIAL PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN CURTAILED. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS KNOWN FOR ASIDE FROM THIS? SOCIAL OUTREACH, CATHOLIC CHARITIES, MINISTRIES WITH THE POOR, MINISTRIES WITH THE HOMELESS, WITH THE ABUSED. ALL OF THOSE SUFFER.

JESS>> WE'RE BEING ASSURED, THOUGH, THAT THIS WILL NOT COME FROM THE COLLECTION PLATE. WHERE ELSE DOES IT COME FROM?

ARTHUR JONES>> EVERYTHING, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, COMES FROM THE COLLECTION PLATE OR SOMEBODY WRITING CHECKS THAT WOULD HAVE GONE INTO THE COLLECTION PLATE.

JESS>> WE'RE OUT OF TIME, BUT I MUST SAY, DO YOU STILL HAVE FAITH THAT THIS WILL BE CORRECTED?

ARTHUR JONES>> AM I STILL A MASS-GOING, BELIEVING CATHOLIC? DARN RIGHT. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) THANK YOU, ARTHUR JONES. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

ARTHUR JONES>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

JESS>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, A NEW TWIST ON THE BATTLE OVER LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF, BERNARD PARKS. NOW A GROUP OF LATINO OFFICERS HAS JOINED THE CHORUS OF THOSE WHO SAY IT'S TIME FOR PARKS TO GO. WE'LL GET THE CHIEF'S REACTION AND GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO ASK HIM A QUESTION. THAT'S TUESDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES AT 7:00 P.M.

JESS>> WRITER BRUCE FEILER WANTED TO RECONNECT WITH THE BIBLE, BUT INSTEAD OF JUST READING IT, HE DECIDED TO EXPERIENCE IT. FEILER SET OUT ON A JOURNEY ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST TO SEE THE PLACES WHERE THE OLD TESTAMENT'S KEY EVENTS TOOK PLACE. THE RESULT IS HIS BEST-SELLING BOOK, "WALKING THE BIBLE". LAST WEEK, VAL SPOKE WITH BRUCE FEILER ABOUT HIS JOURNEY THROUGH THE HISTORY, ARCHAEOLOGY AND SPIRITUALITY OF THE BIBLE.

VAL>> BRUCE FEILER, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES. YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT SO MANY DIVERSE THINGS: JAPANESE SCHOOLS, JOINING THE CIRCUS, COUNTRY-WESTERN MUSIC. WHAT ON EARTH POSSESSED YOU TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE BIBLE?

BRUCE FEILER>> WELL, AS YOU SAID, OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, I'VE DONE A SERIES OF BOOKS THAT INVOLVED GOING TO VARIOUS PLACES AND BECOMING PART OF VARIOUS WORLDS. IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS PROCESS, ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AGO, I DECIDED THAT I WANTED TO RE-READ THE BIBLE. I HADN'T READ IT SINCE I WAS A KID, WHICH MEANT AS A PRACTICAL MATTER I HADN'T READ IT. SO I TOOK THE BIBLE OFF MY SHELF AND I PUT IT BY MY BED WHERE IT PROMPTLY SAT UNTOUCHED FOR TWO YEARS GATHERING DUST AND MAKING ME FEEL GUILTY.

VAL>> WERE YOU BROUGHT UP IN ANY PARTICULAR DENOMINATION?

BRUCE FEILER>> I'M A FIFTH GENERATION REFORMED JEW FROM SAVANNAH, GEORGIA. I SORT OF HAD DRIFTED IN THE WAY OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, LIVED ALL OVER THE WORLD, AS YOU MENTIONED. I WANTED TO BE MORE CONVERSANT WITH THE STORIES. IN THE SUMMER OF '97, I WENT TO VISIT AN OLD FRIEND WHO WAS LIVING IN JERUSALEM. MY FRIEND GAVE A TOUR AND WE WENT TO THIS PROMENADE OVERLOOKING THE CITY AND MY FRIEND SAID, "OVER THERE IS [INAUDIBLE], THE CONTROVERSIAL NEIGHBORHOOD AND OVER THERE IS THE ROCK WHERE ABRAHAM WENT TO SACRIFICE ISAAC." IT JUST HIT ME LIKE THIS BOLT OF CECIL B. DEMILLE LIGHTNING. YOU MEAN THESE ARE REAL PLACES THAT YOU CAN TOUCH AND VISIT AND FEEL?

IN THIS CRAZY WAY I LIVED MY LIFE, I THOUGHT, "HERE'S AN IDEA. WHAT IF I TRAVEL ALONG THE ROUTE AND READ THE BIBLE ALONG THE WAY?" FOR SIX MONTHS, PEOPLE TRIED TO TALK ME OUT OF IT, MOST OF THOSE PLACES ARE UNSAFE, MANY ARE IN WAR ZONES, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT ANY OF THESE EVENTS TOOK PLACE, AND THAT WAS BEFORE I TOLD MY MOTHER. (LAUGHTER) BUT ONCE IT TOOK ROOT IN MY HEAD, I WAS NOT GOING TO BE DISSUADED. I MET THIS ARCHAEOLOGIST WHO AGREED TO GO WITH ME --

VAL>> -- AND HE BECAME YOUR COMPANION THROUGH IT, AN EXPERT COMPANION?

BRUCE FEILER>> YEAH. HE HAD LIVED IN THE SINAI FOR FIFTEEN YEARS AND WE MADE THIS JOURNEY. IT WAS 10,000 MILES, THREE CONTINENTS, FIVE COUNTRIES, FOUR WAR ZONES. IT TOOK US THE BETTER PART OF A YEAR. I MEAN, THE IDEA WAS TO GO TO THE PLACES AND THEN READ THE STORIES IN THE PLACES WHERE THEY TOOK PLACE.

VAL>> YOU ALSO TOOK SOME PICTURES. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF THEM AND YOU CAN TELL US WHAT YOU DISCOVERED AS YOU WENT ALONG THE WAY. THE FIRST ONE IS OF THE RED SEA.

BRUCE FEILER>> OF THE RED SEA. I MEAN, WHEN I SET OUT TO RETRACE THE BIBLE, I SAID I'VE GOT TO CROSS THE RED SEA AND IT'S GOT TO BE INTERESTING. UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S AN AREA THAT'S UNSAFE BECAUSE OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM NORTH OF CAIRO, SO I HAD TO HIRE, IN ADDITION TO THE GUIDE I HAD, ANOTHER GUIDE, A DRIVER, A POLICE ESCORT, AND WE ALL PILED INTO THIS JEEP AND HEADED NORTHEAST OUT OF CAIRO ON OUR WAY TO THE RED SEA HERE.

INFORMED SPECULATION FOCUSES ON THIS ONE LAKE, LAKE TIMSA, WHICH IS A FRESHWATER LAKE. WE GOT ALL THE WAY OUT THERE, THE SUEZ CANAL NOW BISECTS THESE AREAS, IT WAS RAMADAN AND NONE OF US HAD EATEN SINCE FOUR A.M. AND THE EGYPTIANS WERE GRUMPY. THEY WERE LIKE, "CAN WE GO BACK, KID?" AND I'M LIKE "WE GOT TO KEEP GOING". WE ROUNDED A CORNER AND FOUND A LITTLE TINY FISHING VILLAGE. THIS SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY AGREED TO TAKE US ACROSS IN A ROWBOAT ABOUT THE SIZE OF THIS TINY DESK HERE. IT WAS ME, THE TWO GUYS, THE DRIVER, THE POLICE ESCORT, THE SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY AND HIS UNCLE --

VAL>> -- ALL IN THIS TINY BOAT.

BRUCE FEILER>> -- SO I SAY TO THIS KID, "WHAT DO YOU FISH FOR?" AND HE SAID "MOSES FISH", WHICH TURNS OUT TO BE A KIND OF FLOUNDER. I SAID, "WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT MOSES?" AND HE SAID, "HE WAS A PROPHET." I SAID, "CAN YOU SPLIT THE SEA LIKE MOSES DID?" HE SAID, "WELL, SORRY, THAT'S A MIRACLE." TEARS CAME STREAMING DOWN MY FACE. IT'S SUCH A FAMILIAR STORY. OUT OF SLAVERY INTO FREEDOM.

BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL I WAS ON THAT BOAT AND ON THAT WATER THAT I REALIZED HOW THE ISRAELITES MAY HAVE BEEN EXHILARATED, BUT THEY MUST ALSO HAVE BEEN DEEPLY AFRAID BECAUSE THEY WERE LEAVING THE MOST CIVILIZED PLACE ON EARTH FOR THE MOST BARREN, THE DESERT. AND THAT'S WHAT I WANTED TO DO IN THIS BOOK, TO TAKE PEOPLE WHO, WHETHER THEY HADN'T READ THE BIBLE IN TWENTY YEARS OR WHETHER THEY READ IT EVERY WEEK OR EVERY DAY, TAKE THEM OUT OF THEIR PEWS, TAKE THOSE STORIES OUT OF THE BLACK COVERS AND REPLANT THEM INTO THE GROUND WHERE THEY SEEM A LOT MORE REAL.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT ANOTHER PHOTO YOU HAVE. THIS ONE IS OF THE SINAI.

BRUCE FEILER>> THE DESERT IS AMAZING. YOU CAN SEE THIS IS THIS OTHER-WORLDLY PLACE. I'VE BEEN TO SIXTY SOME ODD COUNTRIES AND I'VE NEVER BEEN TO A PLACE MORE BEAUTIFUL THAN THE SOUTHERN SINAI.

VAL>> THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

BRUCE FEILER>> AS WE WERE TRAVELING DOWN IN THE SOUTHERN SINAI, THIS IS 24,000 SQUARE MILES OF NOTHING, WE'RE GOING TO SEE A PICTURE HERE OF ST. CATHERINE'S MONASTERY WHICH WAS BUILT 1,500 YEARS AGO BECAUSE MONKS SAID THAT ONE PARTICULAR BUSH AT THE BASE OF ONE MOUNTAIN IN THAT MONASTERY IS THE ACTUAL BUSH IN WHICH MOSES SAW THE FACE OF GOD.

VAL>> IS THERE STILL A BUSH THERE? A PHYSICAL BUSH?

BRUCE FEILER>> THERE IS A BUSH. ACTUALLY, I SPENT A NIGHT HERE. I GOT UP THE NEXT MORNING AND THE BUSH -- IT'S THIS RASPBERRY BRAMBLE, THIS RASPBERRY YOU CAN NEVER QUITE CONTROL -- I DECIDED TO GO SIT ME DOWN NEXT TO THE BUSH AND SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO ME. I GO DOWN AND IT'S CREEPY AND IT'S DARK AND IT'S CHILLY. (LAUGHTER) SO I'M SITTING THERE AND, YOU KNOW, I'M HAVING THIS TRANSCENDENTAL MOMENT, YOU KNOW? I'M CONVINCED THERE'S THIS HEAT COMING FROM THIS BUSH AND THERE'S HEAT COMING FROM ME AND I NOTICE OFF TO ONE SIDE IS A FIRE EXTINGUISHER! NOW AT FIRST, I THINK THIS IS AN EYESORE AND THEN I REALIZED THE UNINTENDED HUMOR. IS THIS IN CASE THE BURNING BUSH CATCHES ON FIRE? AND IF THE BURNING BUSH DOES CATCH ON FIRE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WOULD YOU PUT IT OUT? WOULD YOU LOOK FOR THE FACE OF GOD? (LAUGHTER) SO I SORT OF GET ALL DISCOMBOBULATED.

I'M TRYING TO GO BACK TO MY BUSH AND THIS WHITE CAT WITH A BROWN PATCH OVER ITS EYE JUMPED OUT OF THE BUSH, LANDED AT MY FEET AND LOOKED UP AT ME LIKE "YOU AIN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HERE, KID" AND SCREECHES AT ME AND I WENT SCREECHING BACK AT THIS CAT. (LAUGHTER) I TOLD THIS STORY RECENTLY IN ST. LOUIS IN FRONT OF A BIG CROWD OF PEOPLE. A WOMAN IN THE FRONT ROW RAISED HER HAND AND SAID, "DO YOU THINK THAT THAT CAT WAS GOD?" (LAUGHTER)

THE THING ABOUT THE DESERT IS YOU BECOME SO TRANSFORMED AND YOU SORT OF TURN TO SOMEONE OR SOMETHING HIGHER. AS AVNER, MY ARCHAEOLOGIST, LIKES TO SAY, YOU CAN'T EVEN SPEND THREE DAYS IN THE DESERT AND NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. THAT IS THE POINT HERE. I MEAN, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS ARCHAEOLOGIST I TRAVEL WITH. I REMEMBER WHEN I MET HIM AT THE BEGINNING, THERE I WAS IN MY BRAND NEW BANANA REPUBLIC PANTS AND MY NEW BOOTS AND ENOUGH SUNBLOCK FOR FORTY YEARS IN THE DESERT (LAUGHTER) AND THERE HE WAS IN HIS BEDOUIN TROUSERS AND HIS SANDALS.

I REALIZED THAT ALL OF MY LEARNING WAS IN MY HEAD AND ALL OF HIS LEARNING WAS IN MY FEET. IF I HAD TO SAY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME, IT WOULD BE THAT MY LEARNING WENT FROM MY HEAD TO MY FEET, THAT BY WALKING IN THESE PLACES AND BEING ON THE LAND, I DEVELOPED THIS VERY PHYSICAL CONNECTION TO THE PLACES.

VAL>> WE HAVE A COUPLE MORE PICTURES WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT OF MT. SINAI.

BRUCE FEILER>> YEAH, THERE ARE 22 DIFFERENT CANDIDATES FOR WHICH MOUNTAIN THE ISRAELITES MIGHT HAVE CROSSED.

VAL>> THEY DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE ACTUALLY?

BRUCE FEILER>> THEY DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY. ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS, NEVER SPEND MORE THAN TWENTY MINUTES ON A CAMEL. CAMELS ARE MEAN, THEY CURSE, THEY SPIT, THEY GARGLE, THEY'RE THE EARLIEST EXAMPLES OF ROAD RAGE. (LAUGHTER) MAYBE HERE IN L.A., MAYBE THAT'S WHY THAT PICTURE WENT UP HERE ON THE SCREEN. THERE'S MT. SINAI BEHIND US.

WHEN I FIRST STARTED OUT ON THIS THING, I WAS INTERESTED IN PROOF, THE ACTUAL ROCK, THE ACTUAL MOUNTAIN, THE ACTUAL BODY OF WATER. BUT THE LONGER IT WENT ON, I WAS MUCH LESS INTERESTED IN PROOF AND MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN MEANING. THAT AT THE CLIMACTIC MOMENT OF THE FIVE BOOKS, WHEN GOD CHOOSES TO GIVE HIS LAWS, THAT THAT IS THE MOMENT WHEN HE COMES DOWN TO THE LAND ITSELF TO CEMENT THAT HOLY RELATIONSHIP AMONG GOD, THE PEOPLE AND THE LAND.

I BECAME CONVINCED THAT, IN A SENSE, THOSE STORIES AND THAT SPIRIT LIVES IN THOSE PLACES AND THAT SPIRIT LIVES IN ME AND THE TWO SOMEHOW MET IN THE COURSE OF MY TRAVELS. THE BIBLE IS NOT AN ABSTRACTION, THAT BOOK GATHERING DUST. IT'S A LIVING, BREATHING ENTITY INTIMATELY CONNECTED TO THOSE PLACES AND, I'M PRETTY CONVINCED NOW, TO ALL OF US.

VAL>> BRUCE FEILER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE TRIP ON OUR BEHALF AND WRITING ABOUT IT SO WE CAN ALL WALK IT OURSELVES. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

BRUCE FEILER>> MY PLEASURE. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> BRUCE FEILER'S BOOK IS "WALKING THE BIBLE: A JOURNEY BY LAND THROUGH THE FIVE BOOKS OF MOSES".

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JESS>> IN THE MOVIES, WHEN A KILLER PLEADS INSANITY, HE USUALLY GETS OFF, BUT IN REAL LIFE, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT SO EASY. LAST WEEK'S CONVICTION OF ANDREA YATES IS GRAPHIC EVIDENCE OF THAT. THE HOUSTON MOTHER WAS FOUND GUILTY OF MURDERING HER FIVE CHILDREN EVEN THOUGH SHE HAD BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH SEVERE DEPRESSION. SO WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE JURIES THAT A PERSON TRULY WAS INSANE AT THE TIME OF THE MURDER?

WE HAVE SOME LEGAL EXPERTS WITH US TONIGHT TO PROVIDE SOME ANSWERS. FIRST, OUR RESIDENT LEGAL SCHOLAR, LOS ANGELES SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE, KEVIN ROSS. ALSO WITH US IS ELYN SAKS, A LAW PROFESSOR FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. PROFESSOR SAKS HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THE INSANITY DEFENSE IN HER BOOK, "JEKYLL ON TRIAL".

PROFESSOR, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF INSANITY PLEAS ARE ACCEPTED?

ELYN SAKS>> IT'S ACTUALLY A VERY, VERY LOW PERCENTAGE. WHAT'S FOUND IS THAT INSANITY PLEAS ARE RAISED IN UNDER ONE PERCENT OF ALL CRIMINAL CASES. THEY'RE SUCCESSFUL IN 25 PERCENT OF THAT ONE PERCENT AND, OF THAT 25 PERCENT, SEVENTY PERCENT IS BY AGREEMENT WITH THE PROSECUTION. SO THE PERCENTAGE OF DEFENDANTS WHO PREVAIL ON THE CONTESTED INSANITY PLEA IS MINISCULE. IT'S MINISCULE AND YET THE PUBLIC THINKS MANY PEOPLE RAISE THE DEFENSE AND MANY PEOPLE ARE SUCCESSFUL.

JESS>> JUDGE ROSS, HOW HARD IS IT IN YOUR COURTROOM, FOR INSTANCE, TO PROVE INSANITY? WHAT MEASURES DO YOU HAVE TO TAKE TO REALLY PROVE IT?

KEVIN ROSS>> WELL, WHAT'S SO INTERESTING ABOUT THE WHOLE AREA IS THAT YOU ARE RELYING ON PSYCHOLOGISTS AND PSYCHIATRISTS WHO GIVE THESE EVALUATIONS BASED ON THEIR INTERVIEWS. I REMEMBER THE MOVIE "PRIMAL FEAR" WITH RICHARD GERE AND ED NORTON WHERE IT DEALT WITH THIS VERY ISSUE OF HOW DO YOU KNOW IF SOMEONE IS REALLY BEING STRAIGHTFORWARD? DO THEY HAVE A MENTAL ILLNESS? ARE THEY INSANE?

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS WHEN I'M MAKING DETERMINATIONS FROM A STANDPOINT OF THE SEXUALLY VIOLENT PREDATOR MATTERS THAT I HANDLE, I'M ABSORBING ALL OF THIS KNOWLEDGE AND INFORMATION AND READING PERIODICALS ABOUT THE PSYCHOSIS AND SO FORTH. YET THE VERY INDIVIDUALS WHO MAKE THE DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THESE INDIVIDUALS ARE GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY ARE JURORS, WHO'VE NEVER NECESSARILY BEEN AROUND MENTALLY ILL INDIVIDUALS, HAVE NO TRAINING, HAVE NO BACKGROUND. SO OFTENTIMES, IT'S SEEMINGLY A GUT REACTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY THINK THE PERSON TRULY IS INSANE.

JESS>> YOU INSTRUCT THOSE JURORS, HOWEVER, DO YOU NOT?

KEVIN ROSS>> YOU DO INSTRUCT THE JURORS. WHAT'S INTERESTING, THOUGH, IS IN THE CASE OF ANDREA YATES. THERE WAS NO DISAGREEMENT AT ALL THAT SHE WAS MENTALLY ILL. THE ISSUE WAS, WAS SHE MENTALLY INSANE? BECAUSE IF SHE WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH THAT SHE THOUGHT THAT HER CHILDREN WERE SUBJECT TO BEING KILLED BY SATAN OR THEY WERE POSSESSED, THEN THE ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE THAT SHE WAS CLEARLY INSANE AND THEREFORE SHE SHOULD BE COMMITTED TO A HOSPITAL.

WHAT THE PROSECUTORS WERE SHOWING WAS THAT, NO, SHE ACTUALLY HAD SOME SORT OF REVENGE GOING ON WITH THE HUSBAND AND THAT THERE WERE SOME ISSUES THAT DEALT WITH HER FATHER DYING. THE REASON WHY YOU HAD THOSE TWO DIFFERENT ARGUMENTS IS BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE LAW SPELLS OUT THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO'S ILL VERSUS SOMEONE WHO'S INSANE.

JESS>> IS THERE A QUESTION WHETHER THE LAW IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE TO PROVE?

ELYN SAKS>> THERE IS A REAL QUESTION. I'D SAY ABOUT FIFTY PERCENT OF THE JURISDICTIONS STILL USE THE TEST THAT WAS LAID DOWN IN 1850, THE MCNAUGHTON TEST, WHICH SAYS YOU NEED TO KNOW THE NATURE, QUALITY AND WRONGFULNESS OF YOUR ACT. ABOUT FIFTY PERCENT OF THE STATES USE THAT.

JESS>> BEING ABLE TO DISTINGUISH RIGHT FROM WRONG?

ELYN SAKS>> RIGHT.

KEVIN ROSS>> RIGHT, AT THE TIME THAT THE OFFENSE IS COMMITTED.

ELYN SAKS>> AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME.

JESS>> BUT THERE IS SUCH A CLINICAL MATTER AS TEMPORARY INSANITY?

ELYN SAKS>> OH, YEAH. SOMEONE CAN BREAK AND COMMIT A CRIME AND THEN REMIT. IT'S VERY UNUSUAL. THE STATS ARE -- AGAIN, THIS IS A MISCONCEPTION OF THE PUBLIC THAT INSANITY ACQUITTEES SORT OF GET AWAY WITH MURDER. THE STATS ARE THAT PEOPLE SPEND ABOUT AS MUCH TIME IN SECURE PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITALS AS A RESULT OF AN INSANITY ACQUITTAL AS THEY WOULD HAVE SPENT IN PRISON IF THEY'D BEEN CONVICTED. SO IT'S VERY UNUSUAL FOR SOMEONE TO SAY, "OH, IT JUST HAPPENED IN THAT FIVE MINUTES AND I'M BETTER NOW. CAN I GO HOME?"

KEVIN ROSS>> AND THE PROFESSOR RAISES A VERY INTERESTING POINT. WHEN YOU HEAR THE TERM "NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY", IS THAT SAYING THAT THE PERSON DIDN'T COMMIT THE CRIME? THE REALITY IS, IT'S THE PERSON SAYING I'M JUST NOT GUILTY UNDER A LEGAL STANDARD BECAUSE I WAS INSANE. SO WHEN PEOPLE HEAR NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY, OFTENTIMES THE PUBLIC ASSUMES, WELL, IF THE PERSON IS DEEMED INSANE, THEY GET TO LEAVE. THEY GET TO WALK OUT OF THAT COURTROOM. THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

JOHN HINCKLEY IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THAT WITH PRESIDENT REAGAN. HE IS STILL CONFINED IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION TODAY. OFTENTIMES PEOPLE WILL STAY LONGER IN THE MENTAL INSTITUTION THAN IF THEY HAD JUST SERVED THE ORIGINAL SENTENCE.

ELYN SAKS>> AND IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING BECAUSE TEXAS SAYS YOU CAN'T TELL THE JURY THAT THE PERSON WILL BE COMMITTED TO A HOSPITAL UNTIL THEY'RE NO LONGER ILL OR THEY'RE NO LONGER DANGEROUS. THE SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD THAT IN A CASE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO INSTRUCT JURORS. THEY'RE JUST SUPPOSED TO BE FOCUSED ON CULPABILITY AND NOT THE CONSEQUENCES. BUT I THINK PEOPLE ARE WORRIED AND THEY DON'T KNOW.

JESS>> LOOKING AT SOME OF THE CASES, WHEN YOU SEE A DEFENSE ATTORNEY WHO HAS A CLIENT WHO SEEMS CLEARLY TO BE GUILTY, INSANITY IS SORT OF THE DEFENSIVE LAST RESORT, ISN'T IT?

KEVIN ROSS>> IT COULD BE. I MEAN, WHEN WE LOOK AT SOME OF THE MAJOR CASES OVER THE YEARS. I MEAN, YOU HAVE THE SUCCESSES OF LIKE A LORENA BOBBIT OR, AGAIN, A JOHN HINCKLEY. YOU HAVE THE SITUATION, ON THE OTHER HAND, A COLIN FERGUSON OUT OF NEW YORK WHERE HE CLAIMED BLACK RAGE AND PEOPLE DIDN'T BUY THAT. OR THE TWINKIE DEFENSE WITH THE MURDERS IN SAN FRANCISCO WITH THE MAYOR. SO, TO THE PROFESSOR'S POINT, OFTENTIMES IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A DONE DEAL THAT SOMEONE IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY ESTABLISH THAT THEY ARE IN FACT INSANE.

ELYN SAKS>> AND IT'S SORT OF INTERESTING BECAUSE THESE REALLY HIGH-PROFILE CASES CATALYZE CHANGE. THE HINCKLEY VERDICT RESULTED IN A CHANGE IN THE FEDERAL STATUTES AND A LOT OF STATE STATUTES, AGAIN ABANDONING THE VOLITIONAL PRONG. MAYBE THIS CASE WILL CATALYZE CHANGE AND WE'LL HAVE A BROADER INSANITY DEFENSE BECAUSE THIS WOMAN WAS REALLY VERY ILL AND, I DON'T THINK, CULPABLE.

JESS>> WE APPRECIATE BOTH YOUR COMMENTS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ELYN SAKS>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JESS>> THAT'S IT FOR US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES. HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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