3/26/02

LC020326

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> LOCAL PRIESTS SAY THE SEX SCANDAL MAKES THEM ALL LOOK GUILTY AND THEY SAY THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY THE CHURCH CAN SURVIVE THE CRISIS.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> WE ONLY HAVE ONE OPTION, IN MY OPINION. THAT IS TO BE AS PUBLIC AND AS CLEAR AND AS CLEAN AS POSSIBLE AND TO GET EVERYTHING THAT WE KNOW OUT INTO THE OPEN.

VAL>> THE BATTLE OVER THE "B" WORD JUST WON'T GO AWAY AND NEITHER WILL CONGRESSWOMAN MAXINE WATERS. HER SUPPORTERS ARE ON A CRUSADE TO GET SOME PAYBACK FROM THE HEAD OF THE POLICE COMMISSION. DID HE USE A CRUDE SLUR TO DESCRIBE THE CONGRESSWOMAN? TONIGHT, WATERS IS HERE WITH A FEW CHOICE WORDS OF HER OWN.

JESS>> PATT MORRISON TURNS HER GAZE SKYWARD TONIGHT AND WHAT DOES SHE SEE?

PATT>> LOOK! UP IN THE SKY! IT'S A BIRD, IT'S A PLANE, IT'S NOTHING BECAUSE THEY'VE EVACUATED THE AIRPORT AGAIN -- ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> ALSO, THE STORY OF ONE WOMAN'S MISSION TO STOP A CRUEL ANIMAL RITUAL IN CHINA. SHE PERSUADED THAT COUNTRY TO STOP THE BRUTAL TRADITION OF EXTRACTING BILE FROM BEARS. NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHINESE LANGUAGE, THE WORDS "ANIMAL" AND "WELFARE" ARE BEING USED TOGETHER.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

THEY ARE THE OTHER VICTIMS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SEX SCANDAL, PRIESTS WHO'VE DONE NO WRONG. BUT WHILE INNOCENT, THEY'RE STILL TARNISHED BY THE ACTIONS OF OTHERS AND SOME ARE RESPONDING IN FAIRLY DRASTIC WAYS.

VAL>> TONIGHT YOU'LL MEET ONE LOCAL PRIEST WHO'S DECIDED IT'S NO LONGER WISE TO HUG THE CHILDREN IN HIS CONGREGATION. AS PHILIP BRUCE REPORTS, IT'S ONE OF THE NEW REALITIES FACING THE CATHOLIC CLERGY.

>> TODAY WE COME TOGETHER TO BEGIN THIS SOLEMN CELEBRATION, A UNION WITH THE WHOLE CHURCH THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

PHILIP>> IT IS THE MOST HOLY WEEK OF THE YEAR IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, A TIME WHEN TRADITION ABOUNDS IN PARISHES ACROSS THE COUNTRY. BUT ON THIS PALM SUNDAY, THE COMFORT OF THESE CEREMONIES WAS OVERSHADOWED BY THE CRISIS THAT HAS ENGULFED THE CHURCH. THE FAITHFUL STILL BELIEVE IN GOD, BUT MANY WONDER IF THEY SHOULD TRUST THE MEN THEY'VE LONG REGARDED AS HIS MESSENGERS ON EARTH.

>> IT'S KIND OF SAD. I USED TO HELP THE FATHERS OUT FROM AGE 13 OR 15 AND I USED TO LOOK UP TO THEM. I MEAN, THANK GOD, NOTHING HAPPENED TO ME. YOU KNOW, ALL THE FATHERS FROM ASCENSION HAVE BEEN GOOD. BUT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE KIDS LOOK UP TO THEM AND NOW I DON'T THINK THEY TRUST THEM.

>> FATHER DAVID, HE'S A WONDERFUL PRIEST. I MEAN, ANYONE COULD GO UP TO HIM AND THEY COULD JUST TALK TO HIM, YOU KNOW, AND THEY JUST COULD SAY ANYTHING TO HIM AND I KNOW THAT HE'S JUST THE TYPE OF PERSON THAT YOU COULD TRUST AND I KNOW THAT HE WOULDN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF NOBODY. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY OTHER PRIESTS DO THAT.

PHILIP>> FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL OVERSEES TWO PARISHES IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES.

FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL>> MY FEELINGS THESE DAYS IS ONE OF SHAME, A FEELING OF SHAME AND EMBARRASSMENT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING. I FEEL THE PEOPLE IN THE PARISHES ARE SUFFERING A LOT WHEN THEY SEE THESE NEWS. PEOPLE TELL ME THAT THEIR FRIENDS ATTACK THEM OVER THIS. PEOPLE CRITICIZE THE CHURCH IN THEIR PRESENCE AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM BEING CATHOLIC RIGHT NOW IN THE MIDST OF ALL THESE STORIES ABOUT PRIESTLY SEXUAL ABUSE.

PHILIP>> ON SUNDAY, AT NEARBY ST. RAPHAEL'S, FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN ADDRESSED THE ISSUE STRAIGHT ON.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> I BELIEVE VERY, VERY STRONGLY THAT, AT THIS MOMENT IN HISTORY, WE HAVE A CHANCE TO MOVE AHEAD BY FACING UP TO WHAT HAS BEEN HIDDEN, WHAT HAS BEEN UTTERLY HORRIBLE.

PHILIP>> FATHER TRACY, WHO'S A CARMELITE PRIEST, TOLD WORSHIPPERS HE WAS SHOCKED TO LEARN THAT A CLOSE FRIEND IN THE ORDER HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS A CHILD ABUSER. HE SAYS HE HAD NO IDEA.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> WE ONLY HAVE ONE OPTION, IN MY OPINION. THAT IS TO BE AS PUBLIC AND AS CLEAR AND AS CLEAN AS POSSIBLE AND TO GET EVERYTHING THAT WE KNOW OUT INTO THE OPEN.

PHILIP>> THE SCANDAL HAS FORCED PRIESTS TO QUESTION THEIR ROLE IN THE CHURCH AND ESPECIALLY HOW THEY RELATE TO CHILDREN.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> I AM HERE IN LOVE TO SERVE YOU, BUT IF I AM GOING TO BE CONSIDERED, OH, WE CAN'T LET OUR CHILDREN NEAR HIM, WE CAN'T LET HIM TOUCH THEM, THAT IS INCREDIBLY INSANE. SO WE NEED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

PHILIP>> FATHER TRACY SAYS, WHILE HE UNDERSTANDS THE SUSPICION, HE WILL NOT SHY AWAY FROM HIS CONGREGATION.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> I'M GOING TO HUG THE KIDS AND I'M GOING TO TOUCH THE KIDS AS I ALWAYS HAVE DONE, APPROPRIATELY AND WITH AFFECTION. AND I DO BELIEVE YOU AS MOTHERS AND FATHERS AGREE THAT I SHOULD. I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYBODY SAY THAT ANYTHING IS INAPPROPRIATE ABOUT THAT. (APPLAUSE)

>> IT'S AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED BECAUSE IT IS THE BIG TALK OF THE TOWN NOW. I THINK IT WAS VERY APPROPRIATE WHAT HE SAID.

>> I THOUGHT FATHER THIS MORNING GAVE A WONDERFUL SPEECH TO HAVE HIS CONGREGATION KNOW THAT HE STILL LOVED THEM AND THEY LOVE HIM.

PHILIP>> BUT THERE IS SOMETHING FATHER TRACY WILL NO LONGER DO.

FATHER TRACY O'SULLIVAN>> THE ONE THING THAT I JUST DIDN'T THINK ABOUT AND NOW THEY'VE PUT IN AS A CLEAR RULE IS ABOUT RIDING IN A CAR WITH KIDS. I NEVER -- I'VE BEEN DOING THAT FOR FORTY YEARS AND, UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES WE'RE IN NOW, THEY SAY WE SHOULDN'T DO THAT AND I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT.

PHILIP>> UNLIKE FATHER TRACY, FATHER DAVID NO LONGER GIVES HUGS.

FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL>> PART OF MY WORK AS A PRIEST, I THINK, IS TO TRY AND SHOW WE HAVE A COMMUNITY OF ADULTS WHO HELP OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF MY PRIESTHOOD, BUT THEN JUST AS REGARDS THE PHYSICAL EXPRESSION OF WELCOME TO A CHILD OR TEENAGER, I THINK I'LL CONFINE IT TO SHAKING HANDS.

PHILIP>> EVEN AS THE SCANDAL TAKES A GROWING TOLL ON THE CHURCH, FATHER DAVID AND FATHER TRACY SAY THEY HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED PEOPLE BEING ANGRY AT THEM. BUT BOTH SAY THEY HAVE SOUGHT FORGIVENESS FOR THE HURT THE OFFENDING PRIESTS HAVE CAUSED. AND AS THEY LOOK TO THE FUTURE, THEY IMAGINE THAT THE MALE-DOMINATED CULTURE OF THE CHURCH MAY WELL CHANGE IN RESPONSE TO THE UNFOLDING SEX SCANDAL.

FATHER DAVID O'CONNELL>> RIGHT NOW, I THINK THAT WE AS CLERGY CAN OPERATE IN A UNILATERAL FASHION IN MANY WAYS. I THINK THAT HAS TO CHANGE. THE CULTURE OF THE CHURCH HAS TO CHANGE SO THAT LAY PEOPLE GET MUCH MORE PARTICIPATION IN THE PARISH LEVEL, THE DIOCESE LEVEL, AND IN ALL LEVELS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS A MAN WITH A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE ON THE CATHOLIC CRISIS. TERRY SWEENEY USED TO BE A JESUIT PRIEST. IN 1986, HE WAS SUSPENDED FOR REFUSING TO ABANDON HIS RESEARCH ON CLERGY CELIBACY. TODAY SWEENEY IS MARRIED AND HE'S STILL FIGHTING FOR OPTIONAL CELIBACY IN THE PRIESTHOOD.

FATHER SWEENEY, YOU STILL MAINTAIN THAT YOU ARE A PRIEST?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> I'M VERY MUCH A PRIEST, YES.

JESS>> YOU CAN BE A ROMAN CATHOLIC MARRIED PRIEST?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> RIGHT NOW, CANON LAW FORBIDS A PRIEST FROM MARRYING AND THAT CANON HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE SINCE 1139, II LATERAN COUNCIL, AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE SUBSTANTIAL WOES WE'RE FACING EVEN TODAY.

VAL>> SO IF THERE'S A CANON AGAINST BEING MARRIED AND BEING A PRIEST, AGAIN HOW CAN YOU BE A MARRIED PRIEST?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> BY SIMPLY ASSERTING THE TEACHINGS THAT WERE LAID DOWN NOT ONLY BY THE RABBINICAL TRADITION, BUT BY JESUS HIMSELF WHO CHOSE MARRIED MEN AND CELIBATE MEN AS HIS APOSTLES. THERE ARE MORE THAN FORTY MARRIED POPES IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HISTORY.

JESS>> BUT YOUR ROLE IS NOT UNIQUE?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> NO. THERE ARE OVER 100,000 MARRIED ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS IN A WORLDWIDE BODY OF 400,000 PRIESTS.

VAL>> LET'S GO NOW TO THE CRISIS THAT'S FACING THE CHURCH IN TERMS OF THE PRIESTS WHO HAVE TURNED OUT TO BE MOLESTING CHILDREN. YOU'VE DEALT WITH A LOT OF ISSUES HERE. WHAT'S YOUR EXPLANATION FOR IT? ARE YOU SURPRISED? WHAT'S THE SOLUTION?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> I AM NOT SURPRISED. I AM SHAMED. I AM SHOCKED. I FEEL THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE DARKEST PERIODS IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH. THE REAL QUESTION IS WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT? I MEAN, IMMEDIATELY WHAT WE SHOULD DO AS A CHURCH IS GET DOWN ON OUR KNEES AND BEG FORGIVENESS OF THE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN ABUSED BY PRIESTS. SECONDLY, WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS REACH OUT -- JUST AS A PERSON WHO GOES TO CONFESSION, NOT ONLY DO YOU SAY I'M SORRY, BUT YOU REACH OUT AND YOU MAKE AMENDS. SO THE AMENDS MUST COME EITHER FINANCIALLY, PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SO ON.

JESS>> AND THE ELIMINATION OF THE REQUIREMENT FOR CELIBACY, WOULD THAT HELP THE SITUATION?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> IT WOULD HELP A GREAT DEAL BECAUSE, BASICALLY, WHAT WE HAVE IS AN ALL-MALE CLERICAL INSTITUTION. GOD SAID IT PRETTY CLEARLY IN THE BOOK OF GENESIS. HE CREATED US MALE AND FEMALE AND, TO REACH FULL SEXUAL MATURITY AND IDENTITY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE BOTH SEXES. RIGHT NOW IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, FOR THE LAST NINE CENTURIES, WE'VE HAD ONLY ONE SEX REPRESENTING THE SPIRITUALITY OF THE CHURCH. IT DOESN'T WORK. IT DID NOT WORK WHEN IT WAS FIRST IMPOSED. IT'S NOT WORKING NOW.

VAL>> BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD SAY THAT CELIBACY AND THE VARIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL DAMAGE THAT CAUSES A PERSON TO BE A CHILD MOLESTER ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE CELIBATE AND THEY ARE NOT CHILD MOLESTERS.

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> ABSOLUTELY TRUE. CELIBACY DOESN'T CAUSE PEDOPHILIA, MARRIAGE DOESN'T CAUSE PEDOPHILIA. WHAT CAUSES PEDOPHILIA IS AN ASSOCIATION, AN EXPERIENTIAL ASSOCIATION OF SEXUAL ECSTASY AND POWER WITH YOUTH. THAT'S WHAT CAUSES IT. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND SAY WHAT BREEDS THIS KIND OF SICKNESS? AND IF YOU HAVE AN INSTITUTION THAT IS ALL MALE, HAS BEEN ALL MALE IN ITS POWER STRUCTURE AND ITS SEXUAL IDENTITY STRUCTURE FOR EIGHT CENTURIES, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE REPRESSED HUMAN SEXUALITY THAT COMES OUT IN DEVIANT WAYS.

JESS>> BUT NOT ALL THE SEXUAL ACTIVITY THAT'S BEING CONDEMNED IN THE CHURCH TODAY WAS PEDOPHILIA.

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> ABSOLUTELY NOT. IN FACT, THAT'S ACTUALLY THE SMALLEST PERCENT OF SEXUAL ABUSE AMONG CLERGY, IS PEDOPHILIA.

VAL>> SO IF CELIBACY WERE -- YOU'RE SAYING CELIBACY SHOULD BE OPTIONAL, THEN YOU WILL RELEASE A LOT OF THE PRESSURE THAT CAUSES THIS DEVIANT BEHAVIOR?

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> YES. IF CELIBACY WERE MADE OPTIONAL, YOU WOULD HAVE, FIRST OF ALL, MUCH MORE RESPECT FOR WOMEN BECAUSE RIGHT NOW WOMEN HAVE NO OFFICIAL ROLE IN THE CHURCH. THEY HAVE NO POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY. YOU WOULD HAVE A SEMINARY SYSTEM THAT HAS WOMEN AS PART OF THE INTERCHANGE THAT'S NECESSARY FOR MATURE SEXUAL IDENTITY. YOU CAN'T EXCLUDE WOMEN AND EXPECT MEN TO BE SEXUALLY MATURE. YOU CAN'T.

VAL>> THAT'S FASCINATING. I WISH WE HAD MORE TIME, BUT FATHER SWEENEY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR PERSPECTIVE WITH US.

FATHER TERRY SWEENEY>> MY PLEASURE.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, PRAYERS FOR PEACE IN ISRAEL. WE'LL GET THE LOCAL JEWISH PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE LOVED ONES IN HARM'S WAY HALFWAY AROUND THE WORLD.

>> IT'S HARD TO HEAR THAT YOUR OWN PEOPLE, YOUR OWN -- I DON'T KNOW. FOR ME, I STILL COUNT MYSELF AS AN ISRAELI. TO HEAR ALL THE TIME ALL THIS BOMBING AND EVERYTHING, BUT SCARY, VERY SCARY.

JESS>> IT'S A SIMPLE LITTLE WORD THAT EVERYONE KNOWS. IT STARTS WITH A "B", IT HAS ONE SYLLABLE, AND IT RHYMES WITH "ITCH". BUT THAT TINY WORD HAS CAUSED A MAJOR HEADACHE FOR THE HEAD OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE COMMISSION, RICK CARUSO.

VAL>> CARUSO'S PROBLEMS STARTED AFTER HE ALLEGEDLY CALLED CONGRESSWOMAN MAXINE WATERS A BITCH. THERE WE'VE SAID IT. SINCE THEN, SOME AFRICAN-AMERICAN LEADERS HAVE BEEN CALLING ON THE MAYOR TO REMOVE CARUSO FROM THE POLICE COMMISSION. TODAY THEY MARCHED ON PARKER CENTER, LAPD'S MAIN HEADQUARTERS DOWNTOWN, WHERE THEY HOPED TO CONFRONT CARUSO IN PERSON, BUT HE WASN'T THERE. LATER THEY SAID THAT USING SUCH A SLANDEROUS WORD AGAINST THE CONGRESSWOMAN WAS UNACCEPTABLE.

DANNY BAKEWELL>> IS IT MY MOTHER TOMORROW? IS IT YOUR WIFE? IS IT YOUR DAUGHTER? THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS WE HAVE TO CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND I'M ASKING FOR ALL OF LOS ANGELES NOT TO ALLOW THIS TO BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG.

JESS>> THE SUBTEXT TO THESE PROTESTS, OF COURSE, IS THE ONGOING BATTLE TO SEE LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF, BERNARD PARKS, RETAINED FOR ANOTHER FIVE-YEAR TERM AS CHIEF. MANY OF THE DEMONSTRATORS DOUBT THAT CARUSO IS ON THEIR SIDE IN THAT EFFORT. JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS CONGRESSWOMAN MAXINE WATERS.

HOW SERIOUS DO YOU FIND THE CRIMES OF RICK CARUSO, IF INDEED HE SAID THAT, AND I GATHER HE HAS NOT DENIED SAYING IT?

MAXINE WATERS>> RICK CARUSO HAS NOT DENIED HAVING SAID WHAT HE'S BEEN ACCUSED OF. I THINK IT'S SERIOUS NOT BECAUSE HE CALLED ME A NAME. I THINK IT'S SERIOUS BECAUSE HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE COMMISSION.

HE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVELOPMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF PUBLIC POLICY. HE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR DEALING WITH HOW POLICE OFFICERS HANDLE THEMSELVES ON A DAILY BASIS OUT THERE IN THE COMMUNITY. IF THEY SEE THE PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE COMMISSION, THEIR BOSS, MAN AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL, USING THE WORD THAT FREELY IN FRONT OF THEM, THEN I THINK THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE COULD PERMEATE THE RANK AND FILE.

I THINK IF IT'S OKAY FOR THE BOSS TO SAY IT, JUST THINK WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF POLICE OFFICERS WERE SAYING THAT ON THE STREET. BUT THINK MORE ABOUT WHAT COULD HAPPEN IF A CITIZEN CALLED A POLICE OFFICER THAT WORD. I THINK IT'S WRONG. I THINK HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE IT, BUT I THINK THAT TELLS US A LOT ABOUT RICK CARUSO AND I THINK IT TELLS US ABOUT WHY HE HAS FAILED IN HIS LEADERSHIP ROLE.

JESS>> BUT, IN TRUTH, YOU REALLY WANT TO GET RID OF RICK CARUSO BECAUSE IT'S YOUR JUDGMENT THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO SUPPORT BERNARD PARKS FOR ANOTHER FIVE-YEAR TERM.

MAXINE WATERS>> NO. IN TRUTH, I WANT TO GET RID OF HIM BECAUSE HE'S PILING UP A RECORD THAT DOES NOT SPEAK TO FAIRNESS. THE FIRST THING WE HEARD ABOUT HIM WERE STATEMENTS HE WAS MAKING ABOUT HAVING BEEN A PROFESSIONAL COMMISSIONER. HE'S BEEN A COMMISSIONER THROUGH THREE MAYORS, I BELIEVE, AND HE SAYS HE ALWAYS DOES WHAT THE MAYOR WANTS HIM TO DO. THAT'S WHO APPOINTS HIM. WE BEGAN TO THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN HE SAID THAT AND THOUGHT, WELL, WE HOPE THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THEN I WENT TO THE POLICE COMMISSION WHERE I QUESTIONED HIM ABOUT THE CRITERIA THAT'S BEING DEVELOPED. IT'S DIFFERENT, IT SEEMS SUBJECTIVE, AND WE ALSO QUESTIONED HIM ABOUT THE TIME FRAME. THEY'RE TRYING TO RUSH THIS THING INSTEAD OF USING ALL OF THE TIME THAT THEY COULD USE TO MAKE THE DETERMINATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE SHOULD SERVE ANOTHER FIVE YEARS. IT ALL ADDS UP TO DISTRUST.

VAL>> AND ACTUALLY, THE VIDEO THAT WE JUST SAW OF RICK CARUSO IN THE HARDHAT, HE IS THE DEVELOPER OF "THE GROVE" AND THE MENTION, OR REFERENCE, TO YOU AS A BITCH CAME IN THE CONTEXT OF DEMONSTRATORS WANTING TO DEMONSTRATE AGAINST HIM AT "THE GROVE" AND HE SAID, "THE BITCH WATERS WANTS TO COME HERE." SO THAT'S THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT OCCURRED. NOW IS THAT A SERIOUS ENOUGH VIOLATION TO ACTUALLY HAVE HIM RESIGN? I MEAN, THERE'S ALL SORTS OF OTHER THINGS YOU CAN DO LESS THAN RESIGNATION, BUT STILL SHOWING, SAY, AN APOLOGY OR ANY OTHER KIND OF REMEDIATION.

MAXINE WATERS>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CONTEXT. I'VE NEVER SAID I WAS GOING TO "THE GROVE". I THINK SOMEONE ELSE MENTIONED THEY WERE GOING TO "THE GROVE" AND MENTIONED MY NAME. HE NEVER ASKED ME. HE ASSUMED THAT, BECAUSE I HAD QUESTIONED HIM AT A POLICE COMMISSION HEARING, SOMEHOW I MAY BE COMING TO "THE GROVE".

IS IT SERIOUS IN THE CONTEXT THAT I JUST DISCUSSED IT? HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE COMMISSION. HE DOES NOT GET TO SAY CERTAIN THINGS. I DON'T GET TO SAY CERTAIN THINGS AS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS. AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN TAKE IT LIGHTLY BECAUSE THERE WERE TWO COMMANDERS, TWO CAPTAINS AND A SERGEANT IN THE ROOM. I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY WERE ALL THERE ANYWAY.

IT WAS AN ALLEGATION AGAINST HIM AND HIS LAWBREAKING IN THE AREA DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PERIOD OF THIS PROJECT WHERE THE NEIGHBORS WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE WORKED ALL HOURS OF THE NIGHT, DISTURBING THEM, AND THEY COULD NOT SEEM TO GET HIM TO STOP. SO I DON'T KNOW WHY ALL OF THIS BRASS WAS THERE CATERING TO HIM. THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE. BUT I THINK THAT THE COMMENT IS SERIOUS ENOUGH, ADDED WITH ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS, TO ASK HIM TO STEP DOWN.

JESS>> HAVE ANY OF THOSE POLICE OFFICERS WHO WERE PRESENT ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HE DID USE THE TERM?

MAXINE WATERS>> WELL, JOE GUNN, WHO IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HAS ACKNOWLEDGED IT ON TWO OCCASIONS. HE ACKNOWLEDGED IT TO COUNCILMAN HOLDEN AND ASKED COUNCILMAN HOLDEN NOT TO MAKE IT PUBLIC, NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. HE ALSO ACKNOWLEDGED THAT TO DANNY BAKEWELL. HE'S NOW SAYING, AS HE SAID TODAY, "I CANNOT COMMENT, I CANNOT COMMENT." BUT HE ACKNOWLEDGED IT AND THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO OTHERS WHO WERE IN THE ROOM WHO HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED IT TO COUNCILMAN NATE HOLDEN.

VAL>> BUT IT FIRST CAME OUT IN AN ANONYMOUS LETTER. HAVE WE LEARNED WHO THIS ANONYMOUS PERSON IS YET? AND ISN'T IT, IN A WAY, A LITTLE COWARDLY TO BE ANONYMOUS ABOUT SOMETHING SO SERIOUS?

MAXINE WATERS>> NO, I THINK THAT IT'S MORE COWARDLY OF CARUSO NOT TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT HE SAID IT. THAT'S WHERE THE COWARDLINESS LIES. THESE OFFICERS ARE UNDER HIM. HE'S THEIR BOSS. IF THEY SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HIM, THEY'RE AFRAID THAT SOMETHING BAD COULD HAPPEN TO THEM, THAT THEY COULD BE RETALIATED AGAINST, SO I UNDERSTAND THAT. THE COWARD IS RICK CARUSO. WHY WON'T HE SAY WHETHER OR NOT HE SAID IT?

JESS>> LET ME GET TO ANOTHER ISSUE, ANOTHER POLITICAL ISSUE. IF BERNARD PARKS IS NOT REINSTATED -- NOT REINSTATED, BUT NOT GIVEN ANOTHER FIVE-YEAR TERM -- THERE'S TALK HE MIGHT RUN FOR MAYOR?

MAXINE WATERS>> WELL, I'VE HEARD THAT AND, OF COURSE, I'D LIKE TO SEE HIM REAPPOINTED TO A FIVE-YEAR TERM. I THINK HE'S A WONDERFUL MAN. HE'S A MAN OF HIGH INTEGRITY, IMPECCABLE INTEGRITY, AS A MATTER OF FACT. I MAY NOT AGREE WITH HIM ON ALL THE ISSUES, BUT I TRUST HIM AND I THINK HE'S TRUSTED BY THE CITIZENS OF LOS ANGELES.

JESS>> WELL, MAGIC JOHNSON'S ALSO TALKING THAT HE MIGHT RUN FOR MAYOR.

MAXINE WATERS>> WELL, MAGIC, I THINK, IS PLAYING AROUND WITH IT A LITTLE BIT. HE TALKED ABOUT IT TWO DAYS IN A ROW NOW. BUT I TELL YOU, SHOULD BERNARD PARKS DECIDE TO RUN, I THINK THAT HE WOULD GET A LOT OF SUPPORT. MAGIC WOULD TOO, BUT I THINK BERNARD PARKS WOULD GET A LOT OF SUPPORT ALSO.

VAL>> CONGRESSWOMAN MAXINE WATERS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE HERE.

MAXINE WATERS>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

VAL>> BY THE WAY, WE DID AND WILL EXTEND ANOTHER INVITATION FOR RICK CARUSO TO COME AS WELL. THANK YOU.

MAXINE WATERS>> OKAY. I HOPE HE ANSWERS YOU. (LAUGHTER)

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JESS>> HER BAGS ARE PACKED AND SHE'S READY TO GO, BUT PATT MORRISON WON'T BE LEAVING ON A JET PLANE ANYTIME SOON UNLESS THERE ARE SOME CHANGES MADE. HERE IS TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> THE FEDS WOULDN'T PROSECUTE, THE D.A. WOULDN'T PROSECUTE AND NOW THE CITY WON'T BE FILING MISDEMEANOR CHARGES AGAINST AN AIRLINE PASSENGER WHO CHECKED IN LUGGAGE NOT KNOWING THERE WAS A FAKE HAND GRENADE INSIDE. THE MAN'S LITTLE BROTHER PACKED HIS BAG WITH ART SUPPLIES, HE SAID, AND THE ATTORNEY SAID HE JUST WASN'T THINKING WHEN HE SLIPPED THAT REPLICA GRENADE IN THERE TOO. WASN'T THINKING? NO KIDDING. HIS MINDLESS MOMENT SHUT DOWN TWO LAX TERMINALS AND LEFT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE STANDING ON THE SIDE WALKS FOR FOUR HOURS.

LAX HAS HAD SO MANY EVACUATIONS THAT NEWS RADIO SHOULD START CARRYING HALF-HOUR EVACUATION UPDATES LIKE TRAFFIC SIGALERTS. ONE WAS FOR A SUSPICIOUS-LOOKING TIN OF COOKIES. ANOTHER TIME, A METAL DETECTOR WAS UNPLUGGED. THAT SHUT DOWN HALF THE AIRPORT AND DELAYED 400 FLIGHTS AND 10,000 PASSENGERS.

THE SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION HAS CALLED THIS EMBARRASSING AND IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO KEEP THE OVERREACTIONS TO A MINIMUM. THIS IS ESPECIALLY EMBARRASSING BECAUSE ONE AIRPORT UNDER HIS SUPERVISION IS NAMED FOR HIM: THE NORMAN MINETA SAN JOSE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT IN THE CITY HE REPRESENTED IN CONGRESS. MINETA WOULD LIKE TO COMPARTMENTALIZE THE PROBLEMS. DON'T SHUT DOWN HALF THE AIRPORT FOR A MINOR INCIDENT, AND THERE HAS TO BE RATIONALITY AND CONSISTENCY.

WHAT ISN'T A PROBLEM IN ONE AIRPORT BRINGS OUT THE SWAT TEAM IN ANOTHER. WHY, FOR EXAMPLE, WHY DID THE SAME PAIR OF SHOES PASS MUSTER AT THE BURBANK AIRPORT, BUT GET ME YANKED OUT OF LINE AT THE OAKLAND AIRPORT? PEOPLE DID GET A KICK OUT OF HEARING THAT LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, CRUZ BUSTAMANTE, WAS FINGERED FOR A SECONDARY SECURITY CHECK NOT TEN FEET FROM WHERE HIS PICTURE HANGS ON AN AIRPORT WALL, AND THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT, DAN QUAYLE, GOT THE SAME TREATMENT SOMEWHERE IN THE MIDWEST.

AS FOR THE MAN WHOSE BROTHER PACKED THE GRENADE, HE SAYS HIS ENGLISH WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND ALL THE QUESTIONS. WITH THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE FEDS MAY STILL GO AFTER ADMINISTRATIVE PENALTIES AGAINST HIM, PERHAPS HE COULD RECORD SOME PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENTS IN SPANISH TO ATONE AND THEN HE'D BE FREE TO FLY HOME JUST SO LONG AS THERE'S NOT ANOTHER EVACUATION.

VAL>> TONIGHT YOU'RE ABOUT TO MEET A WOMAN WHO IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE FOR SCORES OF ANIMALS IN CHINA. JILL ROBINSON IS A FORMER BRITISH JOURNALIST WHO NOW LIVES IN HONG KONG. SHE BECAME FAMOUS FOR STOPPING A RATHER STRANGE AND BRUTAL PRACTICE, DRAINING BILE FROM CAGED BEARS IN CHINA. JILL JUST RECEIVED THE PRESTIGIOUS GENESIS AWARD FROM THE ARK TRUST FOR ENDING THIS CRUEL RITUAL.

JESS>> THE CAPTIVE BEARS BELONG TO AN ENDANGERED SPECIES, ASIATIC MOON BEARS. THEY WERE KEPT IN TINY CAGES IN FARMS THROUGHOUT CHINA. A CRUDE CATHETER WAS INSERTED INTO THEIR GALLBLADDERS SO THE BILE COULD BE DRAINED TWICE A DAY TO BE USED AS MEDICINE TO TREAT VARIOUS AILMENTS. A DECADE AGO, JILL ROBINSON BEGAN NEGOTIATIONS TO END THIS ANCIENT PRACTICE. THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT RECENTLY SIGNED TWO HISTORIC AGREEMENTS AND, SO FAR, MORE THAN TWO DOZEN BEAR FARMS HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN AND 65 MOON BEARS HAVE BEEN RESCUED.

VAL>> AND JOINING US NOW IS JILL ROBINSON, FOUNDER AND CEO OF ANIMALS ASIA FOUNDATION. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

JILL ROBINSON>> NICE TO BE HERE.

JESS>> WE DESCRIBED THAT AS A VERY BRUTAL SITUATION, BUT FOR HOW MANY YEARS COULD A BEAR SURVIVE IN THAT CRAMPED CAGE WITH BILE BEING DRAINED TWICE A DAY?

JILL ROBINSON>> WELL, WE'RE HAVING BEARS COMING IN TO OUR RESCUE CENTER RANGING IN AGES FROM ABOUT SIX OR NINE MONTHS RIGHT UP PROBABLY UNTIL ABOUT THEIR MID-LATE TWENTIES.

VAL>> SO EVEN THOUGH THIS IS HAPPENING TO THEM, THEY'RE ABLE TO LIVE?

JILL ROBINSON>> MANY OF THEM ARE. I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A HIGH MORTALITY RATE AS WELL. NO ANIMAL CAN WITHSTAND THAT SORT OF TORTURE DAY IN AND DAY OUT FOR SO MANY YEARS. BUT ACTUALLY, SOME OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY LIVING THROUGH IT. AND THANKS TO THE RESCUE, AT LEAST THEY'RE SEEING THEIR FREEDOM.

JESS>> NOW THEY NEED NOT USE THE BEAR BILE? THERE ARE OTHER REMEDIES FOR THESE AILMENTS?

JILL ROBINSON>> ABSOLUTELY. THERE HAVE BEEN SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL IN CHINESE PHARMACOPOEIA. THERE ARE AN ABUNDANCE OF SYNTHETICS AND HERBS OUT THERE ON THE MARKET IN CHINA AND, OF COURSE, THE REST OF ASIA.

VAL>> THEY USE THEM FOR LIVER PROBLEMS, FOR EYESIGHT PROBLEMS, FOR FEVER, BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY REMEDY.

JILL ROBINSON>> ALL OF IT CAN BE REPLICATED BY SYNTHESIS OR BY HERBS WHICH ARE OUT THERE IN ABUNDANCE AND MUCH, MUCH CHEAPER TO BUY.

VAL>> HERE'S SOME VIDEO THAT YOU HAVE OF THE CAGES AND SO FORTH. HOW DID YOU FIRST DISCOVER THAT THIS WAS GOING ON?

JILL ROBINSON>> WELL, SIMPLY ALMOST BY CHANCE, WALKING ONTO A BEAR FARM IN 1993 AND JUST BEING SICKENED IN THE PIT OF MY STOMACH BY WHAT I SAW. I MEAN, I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF BEAR FARMING, NOTHING ABOUT THE USAGE OF BEAR BILE IN CHINESE MEDICINE. I WAS THEN WORKING FOR AN INTERNATIONAL GROUP, THE INTERNATIONAL FUND WELFARE, AND WE JUST MADE IT OUR BUSINESS TO THOROUGHLY RESEARCH THE WHOLE EMPHASIS ON THIS USAGE. WE REALIZED, TO OUR GREAT SATISFACTION, THAT IN FACT BEAR BILE CAN SO EASILY BE REPLACED AND THERE'S REALLY NOT ANY NEED FOR THIS UNCONSCIONABLE PRACTICE ANYMORE.

JESS>> WAS IT DIFFICULT TO GET THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT'S COOPERATION?

JILL ROBINSON>> IT TOOK A LONG TIME. IT TOOK MANY, MANY YEARS AND IT REALLY EVOLVED ON A BASIS OF TRUST BETWEEN US AND MANY, MANY MEETINGS AND MANY NEGOTIATIONS. I THINK WE WERE VERY LUCKY. IN JULY OF 2000, THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT CAME TO THE TABLE AND WE SIGNED AN AGREEMENT.

VAL>> I'M SORRY, WHY WAS THE BEAR JUMPING AROUND LIKE THAT?

JILL ROBINSON>> JUST COMPLETELY STRESSED. THESE BEARS NOT ONLY COME IN WITH THE MOST TERRIBLE PHYSICAL WOUNDS, THEY'VE GOT GAPING HOLES IN THEIR STOMACHS, THEY'VE GOT SEVEN-INCH CATHETERS PROTRUDING FROM THEIR GALLBLADDERS. THEY'VE ALSO GOT HEAD WOUNDS FROM WHERE THEY'RE BANGING THEIR HEADS AGAINST THE BARS OF THE CAGE. THEY'RE CAGE-CRAZY. THEY'RE COMING IN WITH SUCH MENTAL IMPACTS AS WELL AS PHYSICAL PROBLEMS TOO.

JESS>> WHAT'S THEIR CHANCES OF SURVIVAL WHEN THEY'RE RELEASED?

JILL ROBINSON>> WELL, WHEN WE FIRST GOT THEM AT OUR RESCUE CENTER, WE WERE WARNED THAT PROBABLY ONLY HALF OF THEM WOULD SURVIVE. BUT, IN FACT, WE'RE FINDING PROBABLY ABOUT NINETY PERCENT OF THEM ARE COMING THROUGH THIS. THE SURGERY TO REMOVE THEIR CATHETER IMPLANTS IS TAKING UP TO SEVEN HOURS. THEY'RE NEEDING MAJOR ABDOMINAL SURGERY. MANY OF THEM ARE COMING IN WITH THEIR TEETH DELIBERATELY CUT BACK, WITH THEIR CLAWS TAKEN AWAY, BECAUSE THE FARMERS WANTED TO TAKE AWAY THEIR DEFENSES.

JESS>> CAN'T RELEASE THEM IN THE WILD THEN.

JILL ROBINSON>> WE CAN NEVER RELEASE THEM INTO THE WILD. THEY'VE BECOME SO USED TO HAVING THEIR FOOD FROM PEOPLE THAT, IF YOU LET THEM LOOSE, OBVIOUSLY THEY GO BACK TO THAT SOURCE OF FOOD AND TRY AND GO INTO URBAN AREAS WHERE PEOPLE LIVE. SO WE BASICALLY HAVE TO BUILD A SANCTUARY NOW FOR 500 BEARS THAT WE'VE BEEN GIVEN PERMISSION TO RESCUE BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. THAT'S OUR PROJECT FOR LIFE, BASICALLY. IT'S A LONG, LONG HAUL.

VAL>> SO HOW MANY SANCTUARIES DO YOU HAVE?

JILL ROBINSON>> WE HAVE ONE --

VAL>> -- JUST ONE.

JILL ROBINSON>> -- AND, AT THE MOMENT, WE HAVE 65 VERY HAPPY, HEALTHY BEARS THAT HAVE COME THROUGH THEIR TRAUMA AND --

VAL>> -- THERE HE IS. WHAT'S HE EATING THERE?

JILL ROBINSON>> SHE'S EATING SOME HONEY. NOW WE DO THIS -- WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM PHYSIOTHERAPY. OBVIOUSLY, THEIR MUSCLES HAVE ATROPHIED BECAUSE OF THE YEARS ON THE FARM, SO WE HAVE TO BE CRUEL TO BE KIND, IF YOU LIKE, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE THEM STRETCH FOR THESE LOVELY TREATS.

JESS>> BUT THE REAL HOPE FOR SAVING THE SPECIES LIES NOT WITH THESE BEARS REPRODUCING, BUT WITH BEARS IN THE WILD NO LONGER BEING CAPTURED TO GO TO FARMS?

JILL ROBINSON>> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S OUR GOAL, TO PUT AN END TO THIS TRADE. WHILE WE'RE SITTING HERE, WE MUST NEVER FORGET THERE'S ANOTHER 7,000 BEARS IN CAGES LIKE THIS IN CHINA. OUR GOAL IS TO END THIS UNCONSCIONABLE PRACTICE FOREVER.

VAL>> AND TO DO THAT, YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO REPLACE THE BILE WITH HERBAL ALTERNATIVES AND THERE WILL BE NO NEED FOR THIS.

JILL ROBINSON>> AND A LOT OF WORK AHEAD OF US TO RESCUE ANOTHER 7,000 BEARS.

JESS>> AND TO OUTLAW THE CAPTURE OF BEARS FOR THIS PURPOSE?

JILL ROBINSON>> ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, ALREADY IT IS ILLEGAL NOW AND WE'RE WORKING WITH THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT NOW TO ELIMINATE THIS TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE TRADE.

JESS>> JILL ROBINSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY. WE APPRECIATE IT.

JILL ROBINSON>> THANKS VERY MUCH.

JESS>> YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CHINA BEAR RESCUE ON THE WEB AT ANIMALSASIA.ORG.

VAL>> AND CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN ON YOUR GENESIS AWARD AND THE ARK TRUST FOR FUNDING YOUR TRIP.

JILL ROBINSON>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE WOULDN'T BE HERE AT ALL IF IT WASN'T FOR THEM, SO IT'S BEEN A PRIVILEGE. IT REALLY HAS.

VAL>> CONGRATULATIONS.

THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. YOU CAN FIND TRANSCRIPTS OF OUR SHOWS AS WELL AS STREAMING AUDIO ON THE WEB AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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