3/27/02

LC020327

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> IT'S THE BEGINNING OF PASSOVER AND, FOR MANY JEWISH FAMILIES, IT'S A TIME OF WORRY ABOUT LOVED ONES WHO COULD BE IN HARM'S WAY IN ISRAEL.

GILA AZRAD>> IT'S HARD TO HEAR THAT YOUR OWN PEOPLE, YOUR OWN -- I DON'T KNOW. FOR ME, I STILL COUNT MYSELF AS AN ISRAELI, TO HEAR ALL THE TIME ALL THIS BOMBING AND EVERYTHING, BUT IT'S SCARY, VERY SCARY.

VAL>> HE'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS A GADFLY IN THE REPUBLICAN'S OINTMENT AND TOUGHER THAN A BOILED OWL. TONIGHT WE TALK WITH L.A. CONGRESSMAN, HENRY WAXMAN, ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND HIS ONGOING PROBE OF ENRON.

JESS>> MUSLIM MEN OFTEN HIDE THEIR WIVES FROM THE WORLD, BUT THESE IMAGES OF MUSLIM WOMEN BREAK THROUGH THE TABOOS. PHOTOGRAPHER, JOAN ALMOND, CHRONICLES FAMILY LIFE IN THE DESERTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND INDIA, A WAY OF LIFE THAT MAY NOT SURVIVE MUCH LONGER.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT A LOOK AT HOW THE DISTANT CONFLICT IN ISRAEL IS COMING HOME TO MANY JEWS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. ON THIS, THE FIRST NIGHT OF PASSOVER, THOUSANDS OF JEWISH FAMILIES WILL CELEBRATE THE EVENING WITH THE CEREMONIAL SEDER.

VAL>> BUT THE CELEBRATION COMES DURING ONE OF THE MOST TROUBLED CHAPTERS IN MIDDLE EAST HISTORY. FIFTEEN HUNDRED PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN KILLED OVER THE PAST SEVENTEEN MONTHS. WHAT IMPACT IS THE VIOLENCE HAVING ON SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA JEWS? GAY YEE FOUND OUT WHEN SHE VISITED A SCHOOL IN WESTWOOD.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY>> THE SEDER IS THE MAIN OBSERVANCE OF THE JEWISH PASSOVER AND THIS YEAR IT'S FILLED WITH THOUGHTS OF THE TROUBLED MIDDLE EAST.

GILA AZRAD>> I HAVE TWO BROTHERS AND TWO SISTERS. THEY LIVE IN TEL AVIV. FOUR WEEKS AGO OR A MONTH AGO, THERE WAS A SUICIDE BOMBING OVER THERE ALSO.

GAY>> IN MANY FAMILIES, THE SEDER INCLUDES SONGS FROM CHILDREN, SONGS THAT ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT JEWISH TRADITIONS. WHY IS THIS NIGHT DIFFERENT FROM ALL OTHER NIGHTS? WHY MUST WE EAT UNLEAVENED BREAD? WHY MUST WE EAT GREEN VEGETABLES DIPPED IN SALTWATER?

>> THE GREEN VEGETABLE THAT YOU HAVE ON YOUR PLATE WHICH IS A SYMBOL FOR THE SPRING AND WE WILL....

GAY>> SALTWATER DEPICTS THE TEARS SHED BY JEWS AS TOLD IN THE STORY OF THE EXODUS. THIRD GRADERS HELD THIS SEDER AT THE SINAI AKIBA ACADEMY IN WESTWOOD, ONE OF THE OLDEST JEWISH DAY SCHOOLS IN LOS ANGELES.

IN THE MEANTIME, HALF A WORLD AWAY, THERE ARE OTHER CHILDREN AND OTHER FAMILIES CELEBRATING PASSOVER AND EATING AT THE SEDER TABLE, BUT UNDER A MUCH DIFFERENT BACKDROP.

JIM LEHRER>> "A PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBER KILLED TWO PEOPLE AND WOUNDED AT LEAST...."

GAY>> IN RECENT WEEKS, THE BLOODSHED IN ISRAEL HAS BEEN NONSTOP AND SO HAS THE TERROR WAGED BY JEWS AND PALESTINIANS.

GILA AZRAD>> SCARY, VERY SCARY.

GAY>> GILA AZRAD TRIES TO PUT THE VIOLENCE OUT OF MIND, BUT SHE RARELY SUCCEEDS. GILA TEACHES HEBREW AT THE DAY SCHOOL. SHE MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES FROM ISRAEL TEN YEARS AGO, BUT FOUR OF HER TEN SIBLINGS ARE STILL LIVING IN ISRAEL POTENTIALLY IN THE LINE OF FIRE.

GILA AZRAD>> IT'S PRETTY OUT OF CONTROL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SAY, OKAY, IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BEYOND THE BORDERS OR IT'S -- THERE IS A WAR BECAUSE IT'S A WAR AND IT'S NOT A WAR.

GAY>> THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, IN ITS FIRST FOURTEEN MONTHS, TRIED TO STAY CLEAR OF THE MIDEAST CONFLICT, BUT GILA BELIEVES THAT IT'S NO LONGER POSSIBLE FOR AMERICANS TO FEEL REMOVED OR DETACHED.

GILA AZRAD>> WHAT HAPPENED IN SEPTEMBER 11 WAKED UP A LOT OF AMERICANS. WHENEVER I SPOKE WITH MY STUDENTS HERE IN THE CLASS OF WHAT HAPPENING, THEY CAN TELL ME THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND NOW WHAT IS TO FEAR BECAUSE IT HAPPEN ALSO HERE IN SEPTEMBER 11.

GAY>> THE PROSPECT FOR A LASTING PEACE KEEPS SOME DIPLOMACY ALIVE. U.S. ENVOY, ANTHONY ZINI, MET LAST WEEK WITH PALESTINIAN LEADER YASSER ARAFAT. BUT RABBI LARRY SCHINDLIN SAYS MANY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT ARE SKEPTICAL AND FRUSTRATED.

RABBI LARRY SCHINDLIN>> VIOLENCE, I THINK, IS THE ORIGINAL PLAGUE. ACTUALLY, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE BOOK OF GENESIS, GOD DESTROYED THE WORLD IN THE FLOOD BECAUSE HE SAW THAT THE WORLD HAD BECOME A VIOLENT PLACE. GOD AFTERWARDS DECIDED THAT HE WOULD NEVER AGAIN DESTROY THE WORLD AND NOW IT'S PEOPLE WHO NEED TO MAKE THE SAME COMMITMENT.

GAY>> THE PEACE EFFORT HAS BEEN KEPT OFF-BALANCE BY PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBINGS AND AIR STRIKES BY ISRAEL AND, IF ADULTS HAVE A HARD TIME MAKING SENSE OF ALL OF THIS, IMAGINE HOW IT'S SEEN THROUGH THE EYES OF A CHILD.

>> IT'S REALLY A SHAME THAT THIS HAS TO HAPPEN TO LIKE INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT AND THEY JUST LIKE ARE GONE IN A SECOND. THEY'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING.

>> I THINK THERE SHOULD BE A WAY THAT WE COULD COME TO SOME SORT OF AN AGREEMENT AND THAT WHENEVER SOMETHING GOES WRONG THAT THE PALESTINIANS DON'T GET LIKE ALL DEFENSIVE AND THEN GO AND DO SUICIDE BOMBINGS. BUT IT'S THE SAME WAY FOR THE ISRAELIS. IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, THEN YOU DON'T RETALIATE.

>> I JUST WANT TO SEE AN END TO THE WAR SOON.

GAY>> WISH IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS THAT?

>> YEAH.

GAY>> BUT THERE IS ALWAYS THE TRADITION OF PASSOVER, A TIME OF NEW BEGINNINGS, AND MAYBE THIS TIME, AGAINST ALL THE ODDS, PEACE HAS A CHANCE.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> THE CONCERN THAT HANGS OVER THIS CELEBRATION BECAUSE OF THE EVENTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IF YOU WERE TO GO TO A MUSLIM SCHOOL, YOU'D FIND EXACTLY THE SAME CONCERNS. BUT THERE'S A SPECIAL POIGNANCY IN A JEWISH SCHOOL AT PASSOVER.

GAY>> WE JUST FELT THAT IT WAS APPROPRIATE BECAUSE IT IS A TIME OF REFLECTION AND THINGS HAVE HEATED UP SO DRAMATICALLY IN THE LAST EIGHTEEN MONTHS THAT WE WANTED TO HEAR FROM THEM WHAT MUST BE GOING THROUGH THEIR MINDS ABOUT THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS.

VAL>> WHAT OTHER IMPRESSIONS DID YOU GET WHEN YOU SPOKE WITH THE STUDENTS THERE? THEY WERE VERY ARTICULATE. WHAT ELSE DID YOU PERCEIVE?

GAY>> IT WAS VERY INTERESTING. I MEAN, WE WERE TALKING TO THIRTEEN-YEAR-OLDS AND AN EIGHT-YEAR-OLD. THEY WERE SAYING THEY SAW A CONNECTION BETWEEN SEPTEMBER 11 AND WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW. ONE LITTLE GIRL SAID, "WELL, IT'S KIND OF LIKE SEPTEMBER 11 EXCEPT SPREAD OUT" AND I SAID, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN?" AND SHE SAID, "WE LOST A LOT OF PEOPLE IN ONE DAY HERE AND THEY ARE LOSING PEOPLE SLOWLY OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, BUT IT'S THE SAME THING."

JESS>> THEY LEARN A GREAT DEAL ALSO FROM THEIR TEACHER WHO IS NOT TOO MANY YEARS REMOVED FROM THAT CONFLICT.

GAY>> NOT AT ALL. SHE HAS TWO BROTHERS AND TWO SISTERS THERE. SHE SAID THE FIRST THING THAT SHE DOES EVERY DAY, SHE STEPS INTO HER CLASSROOM AND GETS ON THE INTERNET TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING OVER IN THE MIDDLE EAST. THAT'S THE FIRST THING SHE DOES, TO LOG ON AND GET THE LATEST NEWS BECAUSE SHE ALWAYS HAS THAT SENSE OF ANXIETY IN HER THAT THIS COULD BE THE DAY THAT SHE GETS THAT PHONE CALL.

VAL>> HOW POLITICIZED DID YOU PERCEIVE THAT THE CHILDREN ARE? I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THEY WANT PEACE AND THEY PROBABLY BELIEVE THAT THERE SHOULD BE A LOT MORE TALK THAN SHOOTING. BUT DID YOU SENSE A POLITICIZATION OF THEIR POINT OF VIEW YET OR ARE THEY TOO YOUNG?

GAY>> NOT REALLY. I THINK, MORE THAN ANYTHING, THEY GOT A SENSE OF WHAT THE FEAR IS, A SENSE OF THIS BEING A REALITY. AND FOR MOST AMERICANS, WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO BE A LITTLE DETACHED. IT'S A WAR AND IT'S A WAR OVER THERE. NOW BECAUSE OF SEPTEMBER 11, IT ISN'T OVER THERE, THAT WE CAN SENSE THAT SAME SORT OF TERRORISM AND THAT RANDOMNESS RIGHT HERE AS WELL.

VAL>> GAY YEE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, WINDMILLS LINE THE FREEWAYS NEAR PALM SPRINGS -- WE'VE ALL SEEN THEM -- BUT A PLAN TO ADD EVEN MORE HAS PUT ENVIRONMENTALISTS AT ODDS. IT'S PITTING CLEAN ENERGY AGAINST ENDANGERED SPECIES. THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> TONIGHT, AS YOU SAW, THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF SKEPTICISM ABOUT THE PEACE EFFORTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST. U.S. MEDIATOR, ANTHONY ZINI, HAS MADE SOME PROGRESS IN HIS EFFORTS TO BROKER A CEASE-FIRE, BUT AN ARAB SUMMIT IS TAKING PLACE THIS WEEK WITHOUT PALESTINIAN LEADER, YASSER ARAFAT. HE HAS BALKED AT ISRAEL'S RESTRICTIONS ON HIS TRAVEL.

VAL>> AND JOINING NOW IS AN INFLUENTIAL EXPERT ON THE MIDDLE EAST, LOS ANGELES CONGRESSMAN, HENRY WAXMAN. THE CONGRESSMAN IS A CONSERVATIVE JEW WHO HAS ASKED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION TO ADD THREE MORE PALESTINIAN GROUPS TO THE OFFICIAL U.S. LIST OF TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS. CONGRESSMAN WAXMAN, WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

HENRY WAXMAN>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JESS>> WE TALKED ABOUT YASSER ARAFAT NOT BEING AT THE ARAB MEETING, BUT NEITHER IS HASNI MUBARAK. IS THAT AS CRITICAL AS ARAFAT'S NOT ATTENDING?

HENRY WAXMAN>> WELL, THAT'S A WARNING BECAUSE HE'S A MODERATE ARAB LEADER AND HE DOESN'T FEEL SECURE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, TO GO TO THAT ARAB SUMMIT. OUR HOPE AT THAT ARAB SUMMIT MEETING IS THAT THE ARAB WORLD IS GOING TO SAY "ENOUGH OF THE TERRORISM." THEY'VE GOT TO PUSH ARAFAT INTO STOPPING THE VIOLENCE, CONTROLLING HAMAS AND HIS OWN AL AKSA BRIGADE AND OTHER GROUPS THAT ARE PART OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY THAT HAVE ENGAGED IN SUICIDE BOMBING, AND GET THEM TO STOP THIS RANDOM KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS SO THERE CAN BE A CEASE-FIRE SO BOTH ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS CAN STOP KILLING EACH OTHER AND START TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER EVENTUALLY.

VAL>> BUT, YOU SEE, EVERYONE SAYS THAT THERE'S SUMMIT AFTER SUMMIT, AND MEETING AFTER MEETING, AND DIPLOMACY EFFORT AFTER DIPLOMACY EFFORT. NOW HERE'S YET ANOTHER SUMMIT WITHOUT THE EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT THERE, WITHOUT YASSER ARAFAT THERE. THERE'S A CHANCE THAT, I UNDERSTAND, A MORE EXTREME PEACE PROPOSAL IS GOING TO BE DISCUSSED. MIGHT IT ALL JUST ADD UP TO EVERYTHING ELSE, WHICH IS TO NAUGHT?

HENRY WAXMAN>> IT MAY WELL. YOU HAVE TO REALIZE THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON HAD INTENSIVE MEETINGS WITH ARAFAT AND THEN PRIME MINISTER BARAK FROM ISRAEL. THEY LOOKED AT CONCRETE PROPOSALS TO SET UP A PALESTINIAN STATE. THEY WERE GOING TO GET MOST OF WHAT THEY WANTED IN THE TERRITORY. AND RATHER THAN SAY THAT IT WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH AND MAKE A COUNTER-OFFER, ARAFAT WENT BACK AND SAID, "I'M GOING TO WAR".

COULD YOU IMAGINE THAT AS A NEGOTIATING STRATEGY EXCEPT IF YOU BELIEVE THAT WAR AND KILLING AND TERROR CAN FORCE THE ISRAELIS TO MAKE CONCESSIONS? AND, OF COURSE, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE CAN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING TO THE MARKET OR TO A CAFÉ, DON'T KNOW HOW TO LIVE THEIR LIFE DAY TO DAY. THEY WANT PEACE SO BADLY. PALESTINIAN PEOPLE DO TOO, BUT THE LEADERS DON'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

JESS>> PRESIDENT BUSH AND HIS ADMINISTRATION STAYED AWAY FROM THE ISSUE FOR SOME TIME. TOO LONG A TIME?

HENRY WAXMAN>> I'M NOT CRITICAL OF PRESIDENT BUSH. HE LOOKED AT THE SITUATION AND SAID THAT THE PARTIES HAVE TO WANT TO MAKE PEACE. BUT NOW HE SEES THAT THEY CAN'T TALK TO EACH OTHER, THEY CAN'T GET ANYWHERE WITHOUT THE U.S. BEING ACTIVELY INVOLVED. WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO GET ANYWHERE EVEN WITH THE U.S. INVOLVED, BUT THERE'S NO CHANCE WITHOUT OUR ACTIVELY PUSHING FOR A CEASE-FIRE. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WORK OUT AN AGREEMENT. THEY GOT TO HAVE A CEASE-FIRE. JUST STOP THE KILLING AND THEN BUILD UP MUTUAL CONFIDENCE THAT THEY CAN LIVE TOGETHER AND THEN TALK ABOUT THE FINAL TERMS.

JESS>> THE SAUDI PROPOSAL OF THE ARAB WORLD'S AGREEMENT TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL AND ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST IN EXCHANGE FOR ISRAEL WITHDRAWING FROM ALL THE OCCUPIED LANDS MADE A LOT OF SENSE, DIDN'T IT?

HENRY WAXMAN>> WELL, IT'S VERY VAGUE AND IT'S NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE U.N. RESOLUTIONS CALLED FOR, WHICH IS SOMETIMES CALLED "LAND FOR PEACE". THE DETAILS ARE WHAT NEEDS TO BE WORKED OUT. THE ISRAELIS NEED TO KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY HAVE SECURITY, THEY'RE GOING TO GET PEACE. EVEN THE TERRITORY HAS TO BE WORKED OUT. IT'S NOT THIS TERRITORY ONLY. IT'S TERRITORIES THAT NEED TO BE RESOLVED AS TO WHAT WILL BE IN ISRAEL, WHAT WILL BE A PALESTINIAN AREA.

VAL>> NOW TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THESE THREE GROUPS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE ADDED TO THE U.S. TERRORIST LIST.

HENRY WAXMAN>> WELL, THE UNITED STATES UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF PRESIDENT BUSH, AND I STRONGLY SUPPORT WHAT HE'S DOING HERE, HAS SAID WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A WAR AGAINST TERRORISM AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT TERRORISTS ARE NOT WITH THE UNITED STATES. WE ARE TRYING TO GET EVERYBODY TO JOIN WITH US. TERRORISTS ARE GROUPS THAT ARE WILLING TO GO OUT AND KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND THEY OPERATE IN THE WORLDWIDE PERSPECTIVES.

YOU HAVE HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS ALREADY LISTED AS TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS. THREE OTHER GROUPS ARE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF YASSER ARAFAT AND THEY ARE EVERY BIT THE SAME AS HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS. THEY'VE ENGAGED IN TERRORIST ACTIVITIES. THEY'VE BEEN SUICIDE BOMBING. SO WE WANT THEM ON THE LIST AND THEN --

VAL>> -- WELL, IF THAT'S TRUE, HOW COME THEY HAVEN'T -- WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN PUT ON THE LIST ALREADY?

HENRY WAXMAN>> WELL, THEY SHOULD BE PUT ON THE LIST. THEY WEREN'T ORIGINALLY BECAUSE IT REALLY GOES RIGHT TO ARAFAT. BUT IT ALSO MAKES CLEAR, IF THEY'RE ON THE LIST, THAT ARAFAT HAS GOT TO DISASSOCIATE HIMSELF FROM THEM OR STOP THEM FROM THOSE ACTIONS AND UNDERSTAND THAT, IF HE DOESN'T DO THAT, THEN IT'S NOT JUST HIS ARGUMENT WITH ISRAEL. IT'S HIS ARGUMENT WITH THE UNITED STATES IN OUR EFFORTS TO STOP TERRORISM.

JESS>> AND THE MUSLIM WORLD WILL SAY, "HOW ABOUT NAMING THE ISRAELI TERRORIST GROUPS?" HAVE ANY BEEN IDENTIFIED?

HENRY WAXMAN>> THERE ARE ISRAELIS WHO HAVE ENGAGED IN VIOLENT ACTIVITIES TO TRY TO FIND WEAPONS AND TERRORISTS AND THERE ARE SOME EXTREMISTS AND THEY'VE BEEN SANCTIONED AND PUNISHED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT. WHAT YOU DON'T HAVE ARE THE PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS FACING ANY SANCTIONS BY THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOVERNMENT OF PALESTINE.

JESS>> ARAFAT HAS BEEN UNRESPONSIVE TO THE DEMANDS THAT HE CURB THE TERRORISTS, HASN'T HE?

HENRY WAXMAN>> HE HAS SHOWN NO SIGN OF HIS WILLINGNESS TO CURB THE TERRORISTS. HE HOPES HE CAN GET CONCESSIONS FROM ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES AND EVERYONE ELSE. HE'S TALKED ABOUT "LET THERE BE A MILLION MARTYRS" AND, TO ME, IT'S SUCH A HUGE TRAGEDY THAT IT'S IN THE INTEREST OF BOTH PEOPLES TO DEVELOP SOME WAY TO LIVE TOGETHER AND THEY'VE GONE THIS ROUTE.

VAL>> WELL, TENSIONS SEEM TO BE DEVELOPING BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS BY BOTH SIDES AND, OF COURSE, ISRAELI'S RESTRICTION ON ARAFAT'S MOVEMENTS HASN'T HELPED MUCH EITHER. I MEAN, IT'S LIKE BACK AND FORTH, BACK AND FORTH.

HENRY WAXMAN>> LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING. I REALLY DON'T LIKE IT WHEN THEY SAY IT'S A CYCLE OF VIOLENCE, BOTH SIDES ARE RESPONSIBLE. IT'S AS IF SOMEBODY SAID OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE TALIBAN, IT'S A CYCLE OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF US. IT REALLY ISN'T. WHEN THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR SUPPORTING THE AL QAEDA AND THEY WENT AND ATTACKED OUR CIVILIAN POPULATION, WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO GO IN AND TRY TO FIND THEM AND BRING THEM TO JUSTICE.

IT'S NOT JUST TIT FOR TAT. IT'S ISRAELIS TRYING TO BRING TO JUSTICE THOSE WHO HAVE ENGAGED IN SUICIDE BOMBING. BOTH SIDES HAVE TO WORK OUT A POLITICAL SOLUTION, BUT THE VIOLENCE, FOR TERRORIST PURPOSES, IS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO CONDEMN AND HAVE ALL OF THE WORLD CONDEMN IT AS WELL AND SAY THAT THIS IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO RESOLVE POLITICAL FIGHTS.

JESS>> BEFORE YOU LEAVE US, WE NEED TO DEAL WITH SOME DOMESTIC ISSUES TOO. YOU'RE 25-PLUS YEARS IN CONGRESS AND YOU'VE BEEN VERY MUCH THE ACTIVIST CONGRESSMAN TOO. ENRON IS A PARTICULAR ISSUE WITH YOU. YOU BRISTLE WHEN SOMEBODY SUGGESTS IT'S SIMPLY A BUSINESS SCANDAL, NOT A POLITICAL SCANDAL. WHY SO?

HENRY WAXMAN>> WELL, IT IS A MAJOR SCANDAL. HERE YOU HAVE THE FINANCIAL SECURITY OF EMPLOYEES AND INVESTORS IN ENRON JUST ROBBED FROM UNDER THEM WHILE THE INSIDE EXECUTIVES WALKED AWAY WITH OVER A BILLION DOLLARS. THAT'S A BUSINESS SCANDAL. THEN YOU HAVE THE ACCOUNTING FIRMS BEING SO INVOLVED AND WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEIR INTEGRITY AND THEIR PROFESSIONALISM TO TRY TO KEEP ENRON SENDING THEM BUSINESS. WE NOW HAVE HEARD ABOUT PAINE WEBBER FIRING A BROKER WHO TRIED TO ADVISE HIS CLIENTS THAT ENRON STOCK WAS NOT A GOOD INVESTMENT IN AUGUST OF LAST YEAR.

BUT WE HAVE TO ALSO ASK, ISN'T THIS AN INDICTMENT OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM WHEN THE ACCOUNTING INDUSTRY WAS ALLOWED TO BE IN A CONFLICT OF INTEREST POSITION? WHEN ENRON HAD SPECIAL EXEMPTIONS WRITTEN IN THE LAW THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE SUBJECT TO OVERSIGHT BY THE REGULATORY AGENCIES? THAT THEY WERE ABLE, IN FACT, TO HAVE KEN LAY, THE CEO OF ENRON, DECIDE WHO WOULD BE THE HEAD OF THE FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION THAT PRESIDENT BUSH APPOINTED? AND THEY WERE ABLE TO GET THEIR WAY ON THE ENERGY PROPOSALS THAT VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY DEVELOPED IN A TASKFORCE FOR WHICH THEY'RE NOT EVEN WILLING NOW TO TELL US WHO ACTUALLY MADE PRESENTATIONS TO THAT TASKFORCE?

SO I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE RAMIFICATION OF WHAT IS A MAJOR, MAJOR SCANDAL, BUSINESS, ACCOUNTING AND POLITICAL.

VAL>> CONGRESSMAN HENRY WAXMAN, I WISH WE COULD TALK MORE AND GET THE BENEFIT OF YOUR EXPERIENCE HERE, BUT WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING TIME FOR US.

HENRY WAXMAN>> THANK YOU.

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VAL>> SHE HAS SPENT MORE THAN 25 YEARS IN THE DESERTS OF THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES PHOTOGRAPHING THE HIDDEN LIVES OF ISLAMIC WOMEN. THE RESULT OF JOAN ALMOND'S TRAVELS? THESE PHOTOS. SHE FOCUSES ON THE SMALL MOMENTS, THE SECRET PLACES AND THE TRIBAL TRADITIONS OF MUSLIM LIFE. HER JOURNEY THROUGH INDIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST WASN'T ALWAYS EASY AS A WOMAN TRAVELING ALONE. SHE WAS STONED, SWATTED WITH STICKS, PUSHED AND SHOVED, BUT IN THE END, SHE CAPTURED A WAY OF LIFE THAT MAY ACTUALLY DISAPPEAR IN A CENTURY OR SO.

JESS>> WITH US NOW IS PHOTOGRAPHER JOAN ALMOND TO SHOW US SOME OF THOSE IMAGES.

JOAN ALMOND>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> AND WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THE PREMISE THAT THESE IMAGES MAY DIE OUT SOON?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THE IMAGES WILL BECAUSE MOST OF THEM ARE PLATINUM PRINTS AND THE MOST PROMINENT OF ALL PROCESSES (LAUGHTER), BUT MAYBE THIS WAY OF LIFE WILL EVENTUALLY, BUT THAT'S WHY I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECORD THESE PEOPLE.

VAL>> NOW YOU DIDN'T JUST GO TO THE ARAB WORLD OR THE MUSLIM WORLD IN A SORT OF MODERN SENSE. YOU WENT TO A PARTICULAR -- THE MORE POORER COUNTRIES, CORRECT?

JOAN ALMOND>> RIGHT. THEY CALL THEM DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, AND INTO THE VILLAGES --

VAL>> -- AND IS THAT A DIFFERENT KIND OF MUSLIM EXPERIENCE?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, I'M SURE THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF MUSLIM EXPERIENCES ALL OVER THE WORLD, DEPENDING ON WHAT COUNTRY AND WHICH PART OF THAT PARTICULAR COUNTRY YOU'RE IN. I WAS IN INDIA TOO A LOT. IT'S THE VILLAGE LIFE AND THAT WAY OF LIFE, THAT SIMPLE WAY OF LIFE, AND THE FAMILY LIFE, THE CORE OF THE WHOLE STRUCTURE OF THE VILLAGES, AND WE'RE LOSING A LOT OF THAT.

JESS>> LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THOSE IMAGES SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND MORE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

VAL>> WELL, THIS DEFINITELY LOOKS LIKE A VILLAGE.

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, THIS IS A VILLAGE VERY NEAR THE PYRAMIDS. IT'S A VILLAGE CALLED SAKARA, WHICH THERE IS ACTUALLY THE SAKARA PYRAMID, AND IT'S BEEN THERE HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF YEARS, OBVIOUSLY. THE PEOPLE ARE DOING THE SAME THINGS. THESE GIRLS ARE BRINGING WATER. WATER IS VERY IMPORTANT, OF COURSE, ALL OVER THE WORLD AND HERE THEY ARE AGAIN. THIS IS WAY OUT IN THE NEW VALLEY. IT'S DESERT, DESERT, DESERT AND, ALL OF A SUDDEN, THERE'S THIS WATER, PUMPING STATION, THEY CALL IT.

VAL>> I LIKE THOSE TWO FEET STICKING UP THERE. (LAUGHTER)

JOAN ALMOND>> YEAH, AND THEY USE IT FOR MEETING PLACES. NOW THESE GIRLS ARE USING A PART OF THIS RIVER AS THEIR WATER THAT COMES INTO THEIR VILLAGE, A LITTLE CANAL. THEY USE IT FOR WASHING, FOR DRINKING, FOR EVERYTHING.

VAL>> NOW AT WHAT POINT DO YOUNG GIRLS HAVE TO START WEARING THE CLOTHING THAT COVERS THEM UP?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, USUALLY THEY'RE -- LIKE NINE, TEN YEARS OLD, THE SCHOOLS -- WHEN YOU GO INTO THE MIDDLE DESERT, THE GIRLS ARE ALL COVERED.

VAL>> NOW WHAT IS THIS ON THE HANDS?

JOAN ALMOND>> THESE ARE TATTOOS. THIS IS IN INDIA, IN GUJARAT, WHERE THEY'RE HAVING SO MUCH TROUBLE RIGHT NOW, IN A VILLAGE. THIS IS SOMETHING THEY DO. THEY TATTOO THE WOMEN UPON MARRIAGE AND THE SONS BRING THEIR WIVES HOME AND THEY HAD TATTOOED THESE GIRLS VERY YOUNG. IT'S JUST KIND OF A CUSTOM THAT THEY DO. THEIR HANDS, THEIR FEET, GOES UP TO THE NECK. THIS GIRL WILL PROBABLY HAVE THE SAME THING UNLESS THINGS CHANGE A LOT. THIS IS A GRANDDAUGHTER.

VAL>> SHE IS BEAUTIFUL.

JOAN ALMOND>> SHE IS GORGEOUS. THE WOMEN ARE GORGEOUS. I MEAN, THE BOYS ARE TOO. THEY'RE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE.

JESS>> AND THEIR ART IS UNIQUE TOO.

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, YES. THIS IS THE BENGAL TIGER. HE'S THE GREAT SYMBOL OF INDIA AND THEY DO A LOT OF WALL ART. THE WOMEN -- THIS IS SOMETHING THEY DO AND YOU SEE A LOT OF DIFFERENT WALL ART. IT'S VERY NICE IN INDIA AND, AS IN THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES, THEY HAVE THE HOJ HOUSES. THIS GIRL HAS HENNA ON HER HAND AND THAT IS GOOD LUCK.

JESS>> THAT'S A TATTOO MEDIUM TOO, ISN'T IT?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, IT'S A TATTOO MEDIUM. THEY USE IT FOR CELEBRATIONS, JUST GATHERINGS, BUT ALSO THEY HAVE THE HAND SYMBOL ON THEIR DOORS AND THAT KEEPS THE EVIL SPIRITS AWAY. THAT'S JUST A NICE FRIENDLY THING. THEY EVEN DID MY HAND.

THIS IS AT THE WALL, WESTERN WALL, ON SATURDAY NIGHT. IT'S CALLED "DANCING THE HORA" AND THIS IS HOW THE SAFARDIC JEWS CELEBRATE THE SUNSET ON SATURDAY NIGHT. IT'S QUITE ACTIVE, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE. THE WALL HAS ALWAYS SOMETHING GOING ON. AND, OF COURSE, THIS WAS A VERY UNUSUAL MOMENT WHEN YOU SEE A SINGLE PERSON AT THE WALL. THIS WAS FIVE IN THE MORNING, THEIR INDEPENDENCE DAY CEREMONY.

VAL>> NOW WE MENTIONED EARLIER THAT WOMEN -- IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO GET CLOSE TO THEM, IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO PHOTOGRAPH THEM. SOMETIMES THEIR HUSBANDS DON'T WANT THEM PHOTOGRAPHED. HOW DID YOU GET PAST THAT BARRIER?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO BE SLOW ABOUT AND TO COMMUNICATE BY SIGN LANGUAGE AND SMILES AND ALL.

JESS>> AND YOU HAD THE ADVANTAGE OF BEING A WOMAN AS WELL.

JOAN ALMOND>> YES, THAT'S MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. SO THEY WOULD INVITE ME INTO THEIR WOMEN'S QUARTERS, WHICH I FELT WAS A GRATEFUL PRIVILEGE.

JESS>> WE TALK ABOUT THESE TRADITIONS, SOME OF WHICH MAY BE DISAPPEARING. SO MUCH OF THIS CULTURE MAY BE DISAPPEARING. SOME OF IT NEEDS TO DISAPPEAR, DOES IT NOT?

JOAN ALMOND>> WELL, YES. YOU KNOW, I'M A GREAT BELIEVER IN NOT HAVING TO WALK FOR HOURS TO WATER. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET WATER, SOMETHING SIMPLE LIKE THAT. HOWEVER, THERE'S A GREAT CAMARADERIE THAT THEY EXPERIENCE BY DOING THIS. THE WOMEN --

JESS>> -- I WAS THINKING MORE IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE EXTREME MUSLIM COUNTRIES WHERE THE BURQA, FOR INSTANCE --

JOAN ALMOND>> -- OH, WELL, YEAH, YEAH. THIS IS EXTREME AND THAT'S NOT ALL OVER THE PLACE. THE PLACES I GO INTO, THE WOMEN, YES, THEY HAVE A SEPARATE LIFE, BUT IT'S NOT EXTREME LIKE THE AFGHANI WOMEN.

VAL>> AND DO THE WOMEN -- DID YOU PERCEIVE THAT THEY WERE CONTENT, THAT THEY WERE HAPPY? DID YOU SENSE THAT THERE WERE SOME WESTERN IDEAS INFILTRATING THEIR LIFE THAT WAS PERHAPS UPSETTING THEIR VALUE SYSTEM OR WERE THEY VERY --

JOAN ALMOND>> -- IT WASN'T UPSETTING THEIR VALUE SYSTEM AS FAR AS I COULD SEE, BUT THERE WERE A COUPLE OF LITTLE VILLAGES THAT WERE PLUGGED INTO A TELEVISION SET. BUT IT'S A WAY OF LIFE. IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY ARE USED TO AND THEY SEEM VERY HAPPY WITH THEIR WAY OF LIFE, THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED. YOU KNOW, THEY'RE LOVELY PEOPLE, THEY'RE SIMPLE PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, GREAT DIGNITY THEY HAVE THAT I LIKED A LOT.

JESS>> AND YOU'VE GOT --

JOAN ALMOND>> -- THIS IS THE BOOK.

VAL>> IT IS BEAUTIFUL, AND IT'S CALLED "THE PAST IN THE PRESENT".

JOAN ALMOND>> IN THE PRESENT, YES.

VAL>> BEAUTIFUL BOOK, A COLLECTION OF PHOTOGRAPHS BY JOAN ALMOND. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE. WE APPRECIATE IT.

JOAN ALMOND>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. IT WAS A GREAT PLEASURE.

VAL>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. A REMINDER THAT YOU CAN FIND TRANSCRIPTS OR HEAR AUDIO OF RECENT LIFE AND TIMES PROGRAMS. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GO TO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND CHECK IT OUT. WONDERFUL STUFF THERE.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

VAL>> BYE-BYE.

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