5/22/02

LC020522

LIFE AND TIMES "THE ETHICS PROJECT" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY A GRANT FROM RALPH TORNBERG.

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> NUCLEAR TERRORISM. THE WHITE HOUSE IS WORRIED ABOUT THE REAL THING, SO WHY PUT IT IN THE MOVIES?

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> HOLLYWOOD IS IN THE BUSINESS OF BOOSTING RATINGS AND SELLING TICKETS, BUT CAN THE STUDIOS SURVIVE BY PUTTING PRINCIPLES AHEAD OF PROFITS?

PHILIP BRUCE>> CONKLIN AND WAYMAN LOOK FOR REDEMPTION, INSPIRATION AND TRANSFORMATION OF CHARACTER IN FILMS. SOME MOVIES DON'T WARRANT ANY RATING AT ALL.

DR. DENNY WAYMAN>> WE JUST KIND OF FEEL LIKE WE'VE BEEN THROWN UP ON OR SOMETHING. YOU KNOW, WE'RE DIRTY.

JESS>> TONIGHT A LOOK AT THE ETHICS OF HOLLYWOOD. IS IT GOOD BUSINESS TO MAKE ETHICS PART OF SHOW BUSINESS AND WHO DECIDES WHERE TO DRAW THE LINE?

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON A LIFE AND TIMES SPECIAL, "THE ETHICS PROJECT".

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

WHEN SUICIDE HIJACKERS ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES LAST YEAR, SEVERAL MOVIES WITH TERRORIST THEMES WERE PUT ON HOLD. NOW HOLLYWOOD IS BETTING ENOUGH TIME HAS PASSED FOR THE PUBLIC TO FIND THOSE KINDS OF FILMS ENTERTAINING AGAIN.

VAL>> BUT ARE THE STUDIOS PLAYING ON AMERICA'S FEARS AND IS THAT APPROPRIATE? WE BEGIN TONIGHT'S "ETHICS PROJECT" WITH A BRIEF LOOK AT ONE OF THE NEW MOVIES, "SUM OF ALL FEARS". IT'S A GRAPHIC THRILLER ABOUT NUCLEAR TERRORISM. IN THE UPCOMING SCENE, THE PRESIDENT IS RUSHED FROM A BASEBALL STADIUM FOLLOWING A BOMB THREAT.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> JOINING US TONIGHT ARE SOME PEOPLE WITH DEFINITE OPINIONS ABOUT THE MOVIES AND TELEVISION.

TOM SELLECK, A STAR OF BOTH. HE WON AN EMMY AND A GOLDEN GLOBE FOR THE LONG-RUNNING "MAGNUM, P.I." SERIES. HE HAS STARRED IN MANY SUCCESSFUL FILMS. SELLECK ALSO PRODUCES TELEVISION PROJECTS.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON IS A SYNDICATED COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR. SHE IS KNOWN FOR HER POLITICAL COMMENTARIES ON THE AIR AND IN PRINT. SHE IS ALSO AN ACTIVIST FOR CAMPAIGN REFORM.

RICHARD SCHICKEL IS AN AWARD-WINNING FILM CRITIC FOR TIME MAGAZINE. HE HAS ALSO WRITTEN AND PRODUCED A VARIETY OF TELEVISION PROGRAMS, INCLUDING A RECENT DOCUMENTARY ABOUT WOODY ALLEN.

AND ABBY MANN. HE'S A VETERAN SCREENWRITER WHO WON AN OSCAR FOR "JUDGMENT AT NUREMBERG". HE ALSO WON EMMYS FOR SEVERAL TELEVISION SCREENPLAYS, INCLUDING ONE ON THE MCMARTIN DAYCARE ABUSE CASE.

WELCOME TO EACH OF YOU.

ABBY MANN>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> RICHARD SCHICKEL, YOU'VE SEEN THAT RECENT FILM. WHAT DID YOU THINK?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> ACTUALLY IT WAS A PRETTY GOOD MOVIE, AS A MOVIE. IT'S AN IRRELEVANT MOVIE, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT HAS VERY --

JESS>> -- IRRELEVANT TO THE ISSUE?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> YEAH, WELL, IT'S NOT THE SUM OF CURRENT FEARS. IT'S THE SUM OF OUR OLD FEARS. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S BASICALLY AN UPDATE OF "FAILSAFE". I MEAN, IT'S TWO NUCLEAR POWERS, THE BALANCE OF TERROR. IT'S TRUE THAT TERRORISTS DESTABILIZE THE SITUATION, BUT IT REALLY IS THE USSR AND THE USA GOING HEAD TO HEAD IN A WAR.

JESS>> IT'S COLD WAR.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> IT'S COLD WAR WITH A LITTLE UPDATE -- CHECHNYA. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THIS IS RELEVANT --

ABBY MANN>> -- JESS, AS YOU ALREADY KNOW, THIS IS A REALLY POWERFUL MEDIUM AND SOMETIMES WE FORGET THAT.

VAL>> AND THE QUESTION HERE THAT'S POSED BY A LOT OF THESE FILMS THAT ARE DEALING WITH TERRORISM IS, ARE HOLLYWOOD PRODUCERS EXPLOITING AMERICA'S FEARS AND IS THAT APPROPRIATE? IS IT RIGHT?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THIS MOVIE DOES.

VAL>> OKAY, BUT WHETHER OR NOT THIS MOVIE DOES, MANY OF THEM DO. IS IT RIGHT FOR HOLLYWOOD TO PIGGY-BACK ON TOP OF FEARS THAT ARE GOING THROUGH SOCIETY AT ANY GIVEN TIME?

ABBY MANN>> I THINK IT IS.

VAL>> IT IS.

TOM SELLECK>> SOME WILL EXPLOIT IT. SOME WILL SIMPLY ADDRESS IT. SOME WILL DO IT WELL. SOME WILL DO IT BADLY. YOU SAID EARLIER ABOUT ETHICS. DOES IT BELONG IN ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS? IT IS IN THE ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS. THERE'S JUST GOOD ETHICS AND BAD ETHICS.

VAL>> IS THERE SUCH A THING AS BAD ETHICS? IT SOUNDS LIKE A CONTRADICTION. (LAUGHTER)

TOM SELLECK>> OH, YEAH, YEAH, SURE THERE ARE BECAUSE EVERYBODY THINKS THEY'RE ETHICAL BECAUSE WE JUDGE OURSELVES BY OUR GOOD INTENTIONS.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> OFTEN TELEVISION AND MOVIES HAVE SUCH AN INCREDIBLE POWER TO CHANGE HEARTS AND MINDS. I MEAN, LET'S THINK OF "TRAFFIC". I MEAN, I THINK "TRAFFIC" WAS AN AMAZING MOVIE BECAUSE IT CHANGED A LOT OF PEOPLES' VIEWS ABOUT THE INSANITY OF THE WAR ON DRUGS AND IT DID IT WITHOUT BEING DIDACTIC, WITHOUT BEING PREACHY. IT'S PROBABLY HARDER THAN MAKING A SLEAZY MOVIE, BUT IT'S SO INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS TAKE ON THIS CHALLENGE. OR "ERIN BROCKOVICH".

JESS>> AND THOSE WERE VERY PROFITABLE MOVIES.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> THEY WERE VERY PROFITABLE, YES. I FIND -- FOR EXAMPLE, I HAVE A 13-YEAR-OLD AND AN 11-YEAR-OLD. I'VE LET BOTH OF THEM WATCH "ERIN BROCKOVICH" EVEN THOUGH IT'S RATED "R" FOR THE LANGUAGE BECAUSE THE MESSAGE IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE LANGUAGE.

VAL>> WHAT ABOUT THE DUTY TO BE PATRIOTIC --

ABBY MANN>> -- I WASN'T ENAMORED OF "ERIN BROCKOVICH" BECAUSE I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT THESE THINGS ARE PRESENTED, BUT WE DON'T GO DEEPLY ENOUGH INTO THEM. WHAT THEY ARE AND WHY AND IT'S THE GOOD GUYS AND THE BAD GUYS, BUT LIFE IS A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> BUT SOMETIMES IT IS THE GOOD GUYS AND THE BAD GUYS. (LAUGHTER)

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> I DON'T THINK THAT MOVIES ACTUALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE PEOPLES' MINDS NOR DO TELEVISION SHOWS.

VAL>> REALLY?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> NO. I THINK THEY CAN DISCUSS AN ISSUE. I DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY A SINGLE SOUL WHO'S ACTUALLY CHANGED IN THEIR VIEWS THE WAR ON DRUGS THROUGH "TRAFFIC".

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> I THINK THEY DO. JOHN MCCAIN SAID TO ME THAT HE TOOK HIS 16-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER TO SEE "TRAFFIC" AND IT CHANGED HIS VIEW OF THE WAR ON DRUGS.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> OKAY, BUT WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT IS THAT I THINK PEOPLE MAKE MOVIES, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TIMES WITH NO ETHICAL ISSUES WHATSOEVER INVOLVED. THEY MAKE THEM FOR --

VAL>> -- A GOOD STORY.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> -- AESTHETIC BLISS, IF YOU WILL. (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> BUT LOOK AT THE ADVANTAGES OF SOCIETY'S CHANGES AFTER "TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD". THAT MOVIE CHANGED A LOT OF MINDS, DID IT NOT?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S COINCIDENTAL? I THINK THAT WAS A MOVIE THAT CAME ALONG AT JUST THE RIGHT MOMENT FOR WHEN THERE WAS ACTUALLY A MASS CHANGE OF HEART AND MIND GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY. I THINK MOVIES CAN REFLECT THAT, BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THEY CAN INITIATE THAT AT ALL.

ABBY MANN>> RICHARD, I'D LIKE TO -- YOU KNOW, I MAY SEEM IMMODEST, BUT I'D LIKE TO CITE SOME OF MY FILMS. FOR INSTANCE, IF WE DIDN'T DO MCMARTIN, THESE PEOPLE WOULD STILL BE IN JAIL. NOW I DID A THING WHEN I CREATED "KOJAK", I DID THE MARCUS NELSON MURDERS. THERE WAS THE YOUNG BLACK MAN, GEORGE WHITMORE, AND HE WAS IN JAIL BY THE TIME WE GOT THROUGH WITH THAT. HE'S OUT OF JAIL NOW.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> WELL, THAT'S A DIFFERENT POINT. CAN YOU ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING WHERE AN INJUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE AND A TELEVISION SHOW OR MOVIE CAN ADDRESS THAT PARTICULAR INJUSTICE? YES, I THINK THAT CAN BE HELPFUL. I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BROADER SOCIAL CHANGES THAN THAT.

VAL>> WE ARE, ACTUALLY. WE HAVE TO GO TO --

ABBY MANN>> -- LET ME MENTION "JUDGMENT AT NUREMBERG" FOR A MINUTE. UP UNTIL THAT TIME, PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE GERMAN PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY HAD NOT MUCH RESPONSIBILITY. THEY THOUGHT OF HITLER AS A GREAT MAGICIAN AND THE ORDINARY GERMAN ON THE STREET DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS. I THINK WE SHOWED THEM OTHERWISE.

IT IS POSSIBLE, I THINK, RICHARD. I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE TO TRY TO DO. WE'RE NOT ENOUGH IN THE WORLD. WE'RE NOT ENOUGH TAKING SIDES. I TOOK A SIDE, A VERY UNPOPULAR SIDE, IN THE ATLANTA CHILD MURDERS. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID, WELL, YOU'RE NUTS, BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS, NOW THERE ARE OTHER MOVIES ABOUT IT, THERE ARE OTHER COURT THINGS ABOUT IT. I THINK THAT WE CAN DO THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. I THINK WE OUGHT TO TRY AND I DON'T THINK IT'S TRIED ENOUGH.

JESS>> NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW THE PUBLIC MAY FEEL ABOUT THIS ISSUE. YOU'RE GOING TO MEET A PASTOR AND A POLITICIAN FROM SANTA BARBARA AND THEY'RE BOTH ON A MISSION.

VAL>> THEY LOOK FOR MOVIES THAT PUT TRADITIONAL VALUES ABOVE SEX AND VIOLENCE. WE TALKED WITH THEM ABOUT THEIR SEARCH FOR ETHICS ON THE SILVER SCREEN AND HOW THEY RATE HOLLYWOOD. PHILIP BRUCE HAS THEIR STORY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HE'S A SENIOR PASTOR AND PSYCHOLOGIST AT THE FREE METHODIST CHURCH. HE'S A FORMER MAYOR AND COUNCILMAN WHO CALLED CITY HALL HIS HOME FOR EIGHTEEN YEARS. ONCE A WEEK, THEY CONGREGATE IN ANOTHER HOUSE OF WORSHIP IN SEARCH OF GOOD CINEMA.

HAL CONKLIN>> OUR ROLE WAS TO LOOK AT WHAT WERE THE VALUES PORTRAYED IN THE STORY ITSELF AND HOW DID THOSE VALUES MATCH YOUR OWN?

PHILIP BRUCE>> HAL CONKLIN AND DENNY WAYMAN ARE THE SISKEL AND EBERT OF SANTA BARBARA. THEIR WEEKLY MOVIE COMMENTARIES APPEAR IN THE NEWS PRESS AND ON THEIR WEBSITE, CINEMAINFOCUS.

DR. DENNY WAYMAN>> WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS SINCE 1995.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THEY DON'T CONDEMN OR CRITIQUE. THEY WANT YOU TO THINK ABOUT THE ETHICAL VALUES PORTRAYED IN YOUR FAVORITE FILMS.

DR. DENNY WAYMAN>> BECAUSE FILMS ACTUALLY ARE LIKE THE MARINADE OF OUR CULTURE. WE ARE FLAVORED BY THEM AND WE TALK LIKE THEY TALK AND WE SEE LIFE AS THEY PRESENT IT TO US.

HAL CONKLIN>> AND WHEN YOU SEE SOMEONE PLAY OUT A MORALITY PLAY LIKE "STAR WARS" IS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUNG KIDS ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE IMPACTED BY THE VALUES THAT THEY SEE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> CONKLIN AND WAYMAN LOOK FOR REDEMPTION, INSPIRATION AND TRANSFORMATION OF CHARACTER IN FILMS. THEY DIDN'T FIND IT IN THIS FIVE-TIME OSCAR-WINNER.

[FILM CLIP]

PHILIP BRUCE>> "AMERICAN BEAUTY" GOT BEST PICTURE IN 1999, BUT CONKLIN AND WAYMAN ONLY GAVE IT ONE OUT OF FOUR STARS FOR WHAT THEY CONSIDERED HIGHLY DESTRUCTIVE VALUES.

OTHER FILMS AT THE BOTTOM OF THEIR LIST? "THE ENGLISH PATIENT", "ICE STORM" AND "REINDEER GAMES", AND SOME MOVIES DON'T WARRANT ANY RATING AT ALL.

DR. DENNY WAYMAN>> WE JUST KIND OF FEEL LIKE WE'VE BEEN THROWN UP ON OR SOMETHING. YOU KNOW, WE'RE DIRTY.

[FILM CLIP]

HAL CONKLIN>> "PULP FICTION", YOU KNOW, AS AN EXAMPLE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT THERE IS NO PULP IN HISTORICAL TALES THAT TEACH. "MISSISSIPPI BURNING" AND "SCHINDLER'S LIST" GET FOUR STARS. "A BEAUTIFUL MIND" IS DEEPLY INSPIRATIONAL, AND "SPITFIRE GRILL" IS POWERFULLY HEALING.

[FILM CLIP]

PHILIP BRUCE>> CONKLIN AND WAYMAN UNDERSTAND THAT SOME FILMMAKERS SIMPLY WANT TO SHOCK YOU. BUT IF BOX OFFICE BLOCKBUSTERS ARE ANY INDICATION --

[FILM CLIP]

PHILIP BRUCE>> -- MOVIES WITH A MESSAGE MAKE MONEY, AND SUCCESSFUL FILMMAKERS DON'T JUST ENTERTAIN. THEY --

DR. DENNY WAYMAN>> -- CREATE WORKS OF ART THAT LIFT THE HUMAN RACE AND THEY ARE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT WHAT THEY PUT ON SCREEN IS LARGER THAN LIFE AND IT'S GOING TO IMPACT SO MANY PEOPLE.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> ETHICS ASIDE, EVERYONE HERE WOULD AGREE THAT SEX AND VIOLENCE SELLS?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> NOT NECESSARILY. I DON'T THINK SO. I MEAN, SOMETIMES IT DOES, SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T.

VAL>> WHY DO THEY USE IT SO MUCH THEN?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> LACK OF IMAGINATION. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> AND IT DOES PAY OFF IN MANY WAYS, DOESN'T IT?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> WELL, IT -- YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE THESE GUYS. THEY PUT MOVIES THROUGH THIS PARTICULAR NARROW FILTER. I MEAN, THERE IS --

VAL>> -- BUT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO THAT, NO?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> DID I SAY TO CUT THEM OFF? (LAUGHTER) NO, I DIDN'T. (LAUGHTER) I JUST THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T LOOK AT A MOVIE LIKE "PULP FICTION" IN TERMS OF ITS VIOLENCE. I MEAN, ACTUALLY YOU COULD MAKE QUITE A POWERFUL ETHICAL CASE FOR "PULP FICTION". I'M SURE YOU CAN. BUT IT'S A SUBTLE CASE AND IT'S NOT A CASE WHERE YOU'VE GOT LIGHT SABERS AND GUYS HAVING A DUEL AND ONE GUY'S CLEARLY DEFINED AS RIGHT AND ONE IS CLEARLY DEFINED AS WRONG. BUT I MEAN, IF YOU'RE ASKING ME IS THAT A BETTER MOVIE THAN "MISSISSIPPI BURNING"? YEAH, I THINK IT IS. IT'S SUBTLER, IT'S SMARTER AND, WHATEVER LESSON IT TEACHES, IT TEACHES YOU THAT IT'S A GOOD MOVIE.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> I WANT TO TAKE UP SOMETHING THAT RICHARD SAID BEFORE WE WENT TO THAT SEGMENT FROM SANTA BARBARA. THIS IS THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT MOVIES CAN HAVE A SORT OF REDEMPTIVE, TRANSFORMATIONAL POWER. THIS IS LIKE SAYING THAT ART CAN'T HAVE A REDEMPTIVE, TRANSFORMATIONAL POWER --

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> -- YEAH, I DON'T THINK IT DOES EITHER. (LAUGHTER) I THINK IT'S A PATHETIC RATIONALE FOR ART.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> BUT WE'VE HAD SOME MAJOR DEBATE COMING THROUGH CENTURIES AND THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN TWO VIEWS. ONE IS SORT OF ART FOR ART'S SAKE, TO SIMPLIFY IT, AND THE OTHER IS ART FOR THE SAKE OF SOME LARGER PURPOSE, BUT NOT TO BE DIDACTIC OR PREACHY. BUT IF YOU TAKE JUST ONE EXAMPLE, IN NINETEENTH CENTURY ENGLAND, BENJAMIN DISRAELI BEFORE HE RAN FOR PRIME MINISTER WROTE A NOVEL CALLED "SYBIL" WHICH BECAME THE SORT OF RUN-AWAY SUCCESS OF THE TIMES AND IT CHANGED HOW ENGLAND VIEWED CHILD LABOR, A LOT OF SOCIAL INJUSTICE, THROUGH THAT ONE NOVEL. SO TODAY, RATHER THAN DONE THROUGH NOVELS, IT WOULD BE DONE THROUGH MOVIES. IF THEY --

VAL>> -- SO IF THEY HAVE AN IMPACT, SHOULD THEY THEREFORE TAKE THEIR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY MORE SERIOUSLY?

TOM SELLECK>> YEAH, THEY SHOULD TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. I MEAN, SEX AND VIOLENCE MAY SELL, BUT IT WILL SELL A LOT BETTER IN A GOOD MOVIE.

JESS>> HAVE YOU CONSCIOUSLY MADE THOSE KINDS OF CHOICES IN THE ROLES YOU'VE TAKEN? IN "MAGNUM, P.I.", THERE WAS VIOLENCE THERE, BUT NOT --

TOM SELLECK>> -- WELL, WE HAD OUR SHARE. I THINK YOU ALWAYS FILTER IT THROUGH, OR SHOULD FILTER IT THROUGH, SOME SORT OF SCREENING PROCESS. THAT BEING SAID, IF EVERYBODY PLAYED PERFECT CHARACTERS WHO DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, WE WOULDN'T HAVE ANY LESSONS TO LEARN. THE JOURNEY OF CHARACTER GOES ON. I BELIEVE FILMS ARE ABOUT PEOPLE AND, IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO CARE ABOUT THE MOVIE NO MATTER HOW --

JESS>> -- SO THERE'S SOCIAL VALUE OF SEEING VIOLENCE AT TIMES?

TOM SELLECK>> WELL, IT ISN'T A QUESTION OF WHETHER A FILM IS VIOLENT OR NOT VIOLENT. IT'S A QUESTION OF THE RESULT ON AN AUDIENCE WHEN THEY WALK OUT OF THE THEATER. SOMETIMES IN A MOVIE LIKE "PULP FICTION", THE RESULT CAN BE QUITE DIFFERENT THAN THE CONTENT THEY SAW. BUT THAT IS SO SUBJECTIVE, EVERYBODY I THINK IN OUR INDUSTRY COULD SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY CAN DO. I MEAN, WE CAN DO ALMOST EVERYTHING. THAT BEING SAID, EVERYBODY'S IDEA OF SHOULD IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT.

VAL>> THAT'S PRECISELY IT.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS THIS WHOLE CONTROVERSY AROUND "IN THE BEDROOM" ABOUT THE SMOKING OF MARLBOROS. OF COURSE, TOM STARTED LIFE AS THE MARLBORO MAN.

TOM SELLECK>> NO, I DIDN'T. SOME PUBLICIST DID. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> YOU WOULD HAVE MADE A GREAT ONE.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> WEREN'T YOU EVER THE MARLBORO MAN? YOU WERE.

TOM SELLECK>> NO, I WAS THE SALEM MAN. THEY MADE MY EYES BLUE BECAUSE I SMOKED MENTHOL CIGARETTES. (LAUGHTER)

ABBY MANN>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, A LOT OF THE GREAT LITERATURE HAS A LOT OF VIOLENCE. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A GREAT NEW FREEDOM NOW. WHEN YOU THINK WITH "GONE WITH THE WIND", CLARK GABLE COULDN'T SAY, "I DON'T GIVE A DAMN". IT WAS STARTLING. BUT TAKING THAT SEX AND VIOLENCE, WHICH IS PART OF OUR LIVES, AND I THINK IT'S WONDERFUL WE HAVE A NEW LANGUAGE, BUT I THINK WE OUGHT TO LOOK BEYOND THIS AND USE THIS NEW FREEDOM FOR ARTISTIC REASONS. YOU KNOW, IT'S NICE THAT PEOPLE HAVE SUDDENLY DISCOVERED THAT TEENAGERS GO TO MOVIES AND SPEND MOVIE. (LAUGHTER)

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> LET ME JUST SAY, I GO TO MOVIES A LOT. I MEAN, MOSTLY THEY'RE BORING AND STUPID AND A WASTE OF EVERYBODY'S TIME. I MEAN, THOSE MOVIES THAT CATCH YOUR MIND ARE MOVIES THAT, IN SOME WAY, SUBVERT AND DISCOMBOBULATE YOU. I MEAN, THESE TWO GOONS HERE, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY, OH, "AMERICAN BEAUTY" OR "THE ENGLISH PATIENT". THOSE HAPPEN TO BE NOT MOVIES I PARTICULARLY ADORE, BUT THEY ARE MOVIES THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU COME OUT OF THERE SHOOK UP AND THINKING. WHETHER YOU THINK THE WAY THEY THINK YOU SHOULD THINK OR INSPIRATIONALLY OR WHATEVER IS ALMOST LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE FACT THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAD AN EXPERIENCE AT THE MOVIES AND, MOST OF THE TIME, YOU DON'T HAVE AN EXPERIENCE.

JESS>> AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE BECAUSE THAT'S YOUR JOB, BUT THE REST OF US CAN CHOOSE TO STAY AWAY FROM MOVIE THEATERS. BUT FOR PARENTS, TELEVISION IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO AVOID.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT. YOU'RE ABOUT TO MEET A MOTHER AND FIND OUT HOW SHE COPES WITH THE CHALLENGE OF FINDING FAMILY-FRIENDLY FARE ON TELEVISION. AS PHILIP BRUCE TELLS US, SHE'S MADE ETHICS HER OWN PERSONAL PROJECT AT HOME AND AT THE THEATER.

SHIRLEE SMITH>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT, EVERYBODY, YOU'RE KIDS ARE WATCHING YOU.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SHE'S A SINGLE MOTHER OF SIX WHO DISHES WIT AND WISDOM FROM A CABLE TV STUDIO IN PASADENA.

ANNOUNCER>> "SO LET'S TALK ABOUT PARENTING WITH SHIRLEE SMITH."

PHILIP BRUCE>> SHIRLEE SMITH'S SYNDICATED TALK SHOW REACHES PARENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. BUT AT HOME WITH HER TEN-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER, DON'T EXPECT TO FIND THEM WATCHING THE TUBE. SHIRLEE'S HOUSE RULES KEEP THE TV TURNED OFF MOST WEEKDAYS. G-RATED FILMS ARE ALLOWED, BUT NEVER A PG-13. HER CONCERN?

SHIRLEE SMITH>> VIOLENCE. I THINK VIOLENCE REALLY PENETRATES CHILDREN'S MINDS AND THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO SEPARATE WHAT'S OKAY AND WHAT'S NOT OKAY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> OTHER EXPERTS AGREE.

HOLLY MCCLURE>> THE AVERAGE THIRD-GRADER HAS SEEN 16,000 TV MURDERS. THE AVERAGE THIRD-GRADER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HOLLY MCCLURE IS AUTHOR OF A PARENTS' GUIDE CALLED "DEATH BY ENTERTAINMENT". SHE SAYS THE TYPICAL 17-YEAR-OLD HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPOSED TO 400,000 SEXUAL ACTS ON SCREEN, NOT TO MENTION ALL THE SWEAR WORDS.

HOLLY MCCLURE>> LET ME ASK YOU. DID YOU EVER WALK OUT OF A MOVIE AND SAY, "YOU KNOW, I WISH I JUST WOULD HAVE HEARD DAMN A FEW MORE TIMES. I WISH I WOULD HAVE HEARD THE F-WORD JUST A FEW MORE TIMES."

PHILIP BRUCE>> SO WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR KIDS, DOES HOLLYWOOD HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PRESENT FAMILY-FRIENDLY VALUES?

SHIRLEE SMITH>> I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED PARENTAL RESP0NSIBILITY. NOW THERE'S LOTS OF STUFF OUT THERE THAT MY KID'S NOT GOING TO PARTICIPATE IN. I DON'T CARE IF THE KIDS NEXT DOOR DO. I DON'T CARE IF YOU DO. MY KID ISN'T.

JESS>> SO WE SHOULD FORGET HOLLYWOOD STANDARDS OR ETHICAL STANDARDS? JUST LET THE PARENTS DECIDE?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT BECAUSE EVERY CHILD IS DIFFERENT AND EVERY FAMILY HAS DIFFERENT VALUES. I THINK ABSOLUTELY IN THE IDEAL WORLD THERE WOULD BE NO RATING SYSTEM. YOU WOULD HAVE RESPONSIBLE PARENTS JUDGING THESE WORKS FOR THEIR OWN SPECIFIC CHILDREN.

VAL>> BUT ARE ALL PARENTS RESPONSIBLE --

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> -- OF COURSE NOT.

VAL>> -- AND CAN YOU REALLY EXPECT PARENTS TO BE ABLE TO FIGHT AGAINST THESE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR PUBLICITY AND PROMOTION CAMPAIGNS?

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> WELL, PRIMARILY, IT IS THE PARENTS' RESPONSIBILITY. THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

VAL>> PRIMARILY.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> PRIMARILY. THERE IS ALSO NO QUESTION THAT PRODUCERS, DIRECTORS, ACTORS ARE ALSO PARENTS OFTEN. SO WHEN THEY MAKE DECISIONS, THEY OFTEN TAKE THAT INTO ACCOUNT. I MEAN, GUY ROSS WROTE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THAT. AS A CREATIVE PERSON IN HOLLYWOOD, HE IS ALSO SOMEBODY WHO HAS A RESPONSIBILITY AS A PARENT. ALL THESE THINGS INTERACT. I MEAN, AS TOM WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU MAKE CHOICES. A LOT OF FACTORS GO INTO THESE CHOICES. BEING A PARENT IS OFTEN ONE OF THOSE FACTORS.

JESS>> TOM, YOU HAVE A YOUNG DAUGHTER.

TOM SELLECK>> YEAH.

JESS>> DO YOU PATROL WHAT SHE SEES AND HEARS?

TOM SELLECK>> I DO PATROL WHAT SHE SEES, BUT YOU CAN'T SEE IT ALL. I GO BY RATINGS. HOPEFULLY, IF I'VE SEEN A FILM AND IT'S NOT RATED IN AN AREA WHERE IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR HER, BUT I THINK IT IS, I'LL LET HER SEE IT. BUT WE SEE A VERY SMALL AMOUNT OF MATERIAL COMPARED TO WHAT'S OUT THERE, SO IT'S VERY DIFFICULT AS A PARENT.

AND THERE'S THIS CLIMATIC EFFECT IN AN INDUSTRY THAT VERY SELDOM ANYMORE FINDS AN ABBY MANN SCRIPT AND BRINGS IT TO LIFE. THEY MORE OFTEN THAN NOT FIND THE TELEPHONE BOOK AND GET TWO OF THE BIGGEST NAME ACTORS AND SAY THAT'S A MOVIE, LET'S FILL IT WITH SEX AND VIOLENCE. PEOPLE LIKE THAT OUGHT TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. THEY SHOULDN'T BE CENSORED, BUT THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH US AS A CULTURE AND A SOCIETY OF HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THAT AND WE NEED TO EXPRESS THAT MORE OFTEN.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> I DO THINK THIS NOTION OF COUNTING UP ACTS OF SEX OR ACTS OF VIOLENCE IS PREPOSTEROUS. I MEAN, 40,000 ACTS OF SEX, BUT YOU KNOW, 39,000 OF THEM, I BELIEVE, ARE LITTLE PECKS ON THE CHEEK OR HOLDING HANDS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THESE ARE PREPOSTEROUS FIGURES.

ABBY MANN>> WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT DISTURBS ME MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE IS THE DUMBING DOWN OF OUR CULTURE AND MAYBE A DEEP THINKER LIKE RICHARD CAN HELP ME.

JESS>> AND THAT'S AN ETHICAL ISSUE?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> NO, I AGREE WITH YOU.

ABBY MANN>> NO, FOR INSTANCE, IT'S NOT ONLY MOVIES AND TELEVISION. LAST NIGHT I WENT WITH MY BEST FRIEND, TONY BENNETT, TO THE ASCAP AWARDS AND THEY WERE HONORING HIM, WHICH THEY SHOULD, BUT THEY HAD 25 SONGS. I MEAN, THEY WERE RIDICULOUS. TONY, WHO IS VERY GRACEFUL, SAID, "THERE'S A LOT OF TALENTED PEOPLE HERE, BUT WHY DO I STILL LIKE GERSHWIN AND PORTER?" (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> BUT IN TERMS, AGAIN, OF THE ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY, SHOULD HOLLYWOOD DO MORE THAN SIMPLY SLAP A RATING ON AND SAY, OKAY, PG-13 AND, HEAVEN KNOWS, THEY KEEP PUSHING THE BOUNDARIES BY THE WAY OF THESE RATINGS AND SAYING IT'S UP TO THE PARENTS.

TOM SELLECK>> WHAT HOLLYWOOD CAN'T DO IS HIDE BEHIND THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND CRY CENSORSHIP EVERY TIME THEY'RE CRITICIZED. WE HAVE THIS ENORMOUS PRIVILEGE AND WE PUT OUR STUFF OUT THERE, SOME FOR NOBLE REASONS, OTHERS FOR COMMERCIAL REASONS, AND WE NEED TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. WE NEED TO ACCEPT THAT CRITICISM WITHOUT CRYING CENSORSHIP OR GOD KNOWS WHAT.

JESS>> CRITICISM, BUT NOT LEGISLATION.

TOM SELLECK>> YEAH. WE ARE CRITICAL OF EVERYBODY WHEN WE WRITE SCRIPTS AND PERFORM THEM. WE MAKE JUDGMENTS ON OTHER PEOPLE, BUT ANY JUDGMENT ON US SEEMS WE'RE MUCH TOO DEFENSIVE ABOUT THAT.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> BUT I THINK, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE MARKETING OF VIOLENT CONTENT TO CHILDREN, I THINK THAT THERE WAS A VERY REVEALING HEARING IN WASHINGTON WHEN WE FOUND OUT THAT THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY WAS ACTUALLY DELIBERATELY MARKETING TO UNDER-AGE CHILDREN. THAT IS DECEIVING AND THAT IS --
VAL>> -- SO WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> BUT LET'S SET ASIDE -- I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT MARKETING, BUT LOOK, MOVIES AND, TO A DEGREE, TELEVISION WORK IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN ANY OF THESE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT. CHILDREN OVERHEAR. I MEAN, IT'S HOW THEY GROW UP. THEY OVERHEAR THEIR PARENTS' CONVERSATIONS AND, YES, SOME MOVIES WILL BE, BY OUR STANDARDS, TOO VIOLENT FOR THAT LITTLE KID OR THIS LITTLE KID OR IT MIGHT BE TOO SEXY. BUT I WOULD REALLY NOT LIKE TO SEE A SOCIETY IN WHICH CHILDREN ARE SO OVER-PROTECTED THAT THEY GROW UP TO A POINT WHERE THEY APPROACH THE WORLD WITH A REALLY TRULY DANGEROUS INNOCENCE WHICH I THINK --

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> -- WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT. (LAUGHTER)

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> I DON'T THINK YOU CAN WORRY ABOUT THAT. NOT REALISTICALLY.

TOM SELLECK>> WELL, IF THEY'RE TOO INNOCENT, THREE MINUTES OF MTV. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> YES, EXACTLY.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> I THINK WHAT HIS MATCH WAS, AND REALLY A MUCH GREATER THREAT THAN THE GROWING TOO DANGEROUSLY INNOCENT, IS GROWING HAVING WATCHED SUCH INCREDIBLY DREARY STUFF. DREARY, TRIVIA, BORING. I MEAN, WITHOUT ANY REDEMPTIVE VALUE. I DON'T MEAN IN TERMS OF GREAT ART, BUT IN TERMS OF ANYTHING. THAT'S REALLY, I THINK, WHERE PARENTS ARE AT FAULT OFTEN WHEN THEY USE TELEVISION AS A KIND OF BABYSITTER. YOU KNOW, JUST SIT DOWN HERE AND --

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> -- BUT THEN IF YOU PUT -- IF IT'S ALL G-RATED, YOU HAVE GOT, I THINK, A REAL PROBLEM BECAUSE THEY AREN'T REALLY GROWING UP IN THE REAL WORLD. THEY'RE GROWING UP IN A FANTASY DISNEY WORLD THAT'S PREPOSTEROUS.

ARIANNA HUFFINGTON>> THERE'S A LOT OF G-RATED RUBBISH, I'M SAYING.

RICHARD SCHICKEL>> YOU TELL THEM.

TOM SELLECK>> TO QUANTIFY ACTS OF VIOLENCE, I MEAN THERE'S VIOLENCE IN WHAT GROUP, WHAT IS SAID. YOU KNOW, THESE PEOPLE WHO ADD UP THESE ACTS OF SEX AND VIOLENCE, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE CONTEXT THAT'S PRESENTED AND KIDS ARE ENLIGHTENED WAY BEYOND WHAT WE THINK THEY ARE AND THEY NEED TO BE CHALLENGED. BUT COULD WE DO A BETTER JOB OF IT? YEAH.

VAL>> EVEN IF WE COULD, HOW -- REAL QUICKLY, WE'RE IN THE LAST MINUTE HERE -- IS THERE ANY CONTROLLING HOLLYWOOD? IT'S A MULTI-FACETED INCREDIBLY COMPLEX THING.

TOM SELLECK>> THE MARKETPLACE.

VAL>> HOW DO YOU DO IT?

TOM SELLECK>> DON'T GO TO THOSE MOVIES.

JESS>> THE MARKETPLACE. THAT'S THE ANSWER.

VAL>> DON'T GO TO THE MOVIES. THAT'S IT.

TOM SELLECK>> NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT. DON'T GO TO MOVIES YOU DON'T LIKE OR THINK ARE INAPPROPRIATE.

RICHARD SCHINKEL>> MOST MOVIES ARE BLAND AND STUPID BASICALLY. YOU KNOW -- (LAUGHTER)

JESS>> THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH. A SPECIAL THANKS TO TOM SELLECK, ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, RICHARD SCHICKEL AND ABBY MANN. WE'VE CERTAINLY ENJOYED WHAT YOU ALL HAD TO SAY ABOUT ETHICS AND MORE ABOUT HOLLYWOOD.

VAL>> AND THOSE OF YOU AT HOME CAN SOUND OFF ABOUT TONIGHT'S PROGRAM. JUST LOG ONTO KCET.ORG, CLIP ON "THE ETHICS PROJECT" AND LOOK FOR OUR CYBER POLL. TONIGHT'S QUESTION: "DO YOU THINK THAT TERRORISTS GET IDEAS FROM HOLLYWOOD MOVIES?" WE'LL COUNT YOUR VOTES AND REPORT THE RESULTS ON AN UPCOMING EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> YOU CAN ALSO CHECK THE WEBSITE FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT TONIGHT'S "ETHICS PROJECT". THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

TO REACH US AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, CALL 323-953-5555. SEND US AN E-MAIL TO LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG OR LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG TO SEND MESSAGES OR DOWNLOAD TRANSCRIPTS OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.

LIFE AND TIMES "THE ETHICS PROJECT" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY A GRANT FROM RALPH TORNBERG.