5/30/02

LC020530

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> TURNING SEAWATER INTO FRESHWATER. IT'S NO LONGER JUST A PIPE DREAM AND IT COULD CHANGE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FOREVER.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU KNOW, MARK TWAIN SAID, "WHISKEY'S FOR DRINKING AND WATER'S FOR FIGHTING" AND THAT'S A REALIZATION THAT, INLAND, WATER IS A SCARCE RESOURCE AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THAT FRESH WATER TO SUPPLY EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

VAL>> THEY RISK THEIR LIVES BY CROSSING BLISTERING STRETCHES OF CALIFORNIA DESERT AND MANY GET LOST WITH NO FOOD OR WATER. IT'S JUST ONE OF THE HAZARDS WHEN PEOPLE CROSS THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER ILLEGALLY. BUT NOW SOME SAY THE UNITED STATES HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THOSE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. TONIGHT WE'LL HEAR TWO DISTINCT VIEWPOINTS.

JESS>> HE IS KNOWN FOR HIS PAINTINGS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BUT ONE OF THE WORLD'S MOST CELEBRATED ARTISTS IS ALSO A MASTER PHOTOGRAPHER. TONIGHT WE'LL VISIT WITH DAVID HOCKNEY ABOUT MAKING PICTURES. AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT, HE'S NOT JUST ANOTHER SHUTTERBUG.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

IT IS NO SECRET THAT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA HAS MADE A LOT OF ENEMIES OVER WATER. WE HAVE TAKEN IT, WE'RE TOLD, WHEREVER WE COULD GET IT, FROM THE NORTHERN SIERRAS, FROM THE NORTHERN RIVERS, TO THE COLORADO RIVER AND, AS THE LOCAL POPULATION CONTINUES TO GROW, WE'RE GOING TO NEED EVEN MORE. THE QUESTION IS, WHERE WILL THE WATER COME FROM?

VAL>> THE OCEAN MAY SEEM AN UNLIKELY SOURCE, BUT SOME CALIFORNIA SCIENTISTS SAY IT'S BECOMING MORE OF A POSSIBILITY EVERY DAY. RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE WORKING ON AN ECONOMICAL PROCESS TO TURN SALTWATER INTO FRESHWATER AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THEY'RE ENCOURAGED BY THE EARLY RESULTS.

GAY YEE>> TWO-THIRDS OF THE FRESH WATER FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COMES FROM SOMEPLACE ELSE, FROM SOURCES HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY, IMPORTED IN A RIBBON OF AQUEDUCTS. WATER SNAKES ITS WAY FROM NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, THE EASTERN SIERRA AND THE COLORADO RIVER. IT'S FUELED A BOOM OF GROWTH AND PROSPERITY, BUT IT'S ALSO GIVEN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AN IMAGE AS A THIRSTY GIANT THAT'S MORE THAN WILLING TO TAKE WHATEVER IT NEEDS.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU KNOW, MARK TWAIN SAID, "WHISKEY'S FOR DRINKING AND WATER'S FOR FIGHTING" AND THAT'S A REALIZATION THAT, INLAND, WATER IS A SCARCE RESOURCE AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THAT FRESH WATER TO SUPPLY EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

GAY YEE>> SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA HAS AN ALMOST LIMITLESS SUPPLY OF WATER RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES: THE PACIFIC OCEAN. BUT THERE'S JUST ONE PROBLEM. IT'S TOO SALTY TO DRINK OR USE FOR IRRIGATION AND TAKING OUT THE SALT HAS BEEN TOO COSTLY TO BE PRACTICAL. IT'S FRUSTRATED SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS FOR DECADES.

THE IDEA OF TURNING OCEAN WATER INTO DRINKING WATER IS NOTHING NEW. SANTA BARBARA DID IT A DECADE AGO, BUT IT PROVED TO BE SO EXPENSIVE THAT THEY DROPPED THE PLAN. BUT A LOT HAS CHANGED OVER TEN YEARS AND IT'S BEGINNING TO MAKE SENSE AND IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT KIND IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: DOLLAR SENSE.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU LOOK AT THE OCEAN AND NO MORE FIGHTING BECAUSE THAT OCEAN IS LIMITLESS.

GAY YEE>> PAUL SHOENBERGER IS CHIEF OF ENGINEERING AND OPERATIONS FOR THE WEST BASIN WATER DISTRICT WHERE THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY DESALINATING WATER IN EL SEGUNDO FOR YEARS. THIS IS WHAT THE DISTRICT STARTS WITH. TREATED SEWAGE, DIRTIER THAN ANYTHING FOUND IN THE OCEAN. THEY TURN IT INTO RECYCLED WATER FOR INDUSTRIAL USE AND THE PROCESS TAKES OUT THE SALT.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> WHAT WE'RE STANDING IN FRONT OF HERE IS A FULL-SCALE MICROFILTRATION UNIT.

GAY YEE>> THE DISTRICT BEGINS WITH A PRETREATMENT CALLED MICROFILTRATION. THE WATER IS SENT THROUGH CANISTERS FILLED WITH THOUSANDS OF TINY STRAW-LIKE FILTERS.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AND THE WATER IS PUSHED THROUGH HERE, THROUGH VERY LOW PRESSURE, AND REALLY ANYTHING THAT'S LARGER THAN .1 MICRON IS REJECTED. THIS DOES NOT REDUCE ANY OF THE SALINITY, BUT IT TAKES OUT MOST OF THE IMPURITIES EXCEPT FOR THE SALINITY IN THE WATER.

GAY YEE>> TAKING OUT THE SALT REQUIRES A SECOND STEP CALLED REVERSE OSMOSIS. THE WATER IS PUSHED UNDER HIGH PRESSURE THROUGH COILED MEMBRANES INSIDE THESE PIPES.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AND REALLY WHAT THE PROCESS DOES IS TAKE WATER UNDER HIGH PRESSURE AND PUSHES IT RIGHT THROUGH THIS MEMBRANE. IT PUSHES IT THROUGH THE SPACES IN BETWEEN THE MOLECULES OF THE MEMBRANE AND REALLY WATER GOES THROUGH. H2O WILL GO THROUGH AND 99.9 PERCENT OF ALL THE DISSOLVED SOLIDS, MINERALS, SALTS WILL BE LEFT BEHIND.

GAY YEE>> ADVANCES HAVE LOWERED THE COST OF THESE MEMBRANES AND THE COST OF RUNNING THE MACHINES, WHICH IS WHY SHOENBERGER THINKS IT'S TIME TO GIVE DESALINIZATION ANOTHER CHANCE.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S EXTREMELY CLEAR WATER. IT HAS EXTREMELY LOW SALINITY, HARDLY ANY SALT IN THIS WHATSOEVER.

GAY YEE>> SHOENBERGER SAYS THE EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY CAN BE USED TO TURN SEAWATER INTO DRINKING WATER AND, AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT'S ALREADY BEING DONE, NESTLED IN THE SHADOW OF THIS TOWERING POWER PLANT AT THE BEACH IN EL SEGUNDO WHERE THE DISTRICT HAS JUST LAUNCHED A DEMONSTRATION PROJECT. THEY TAKE SEAWATER FROM THE POWER PLANTS COOLING SYSTEM AND RUN IT THROUGH A SMALLER VERSION OF THE MICROFILTRATION REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM WE SAW AT THE WEST BASIN RECYCLING PLANT.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> THIS WATER HERE HAS LESS SALT IN IT THAN MOST IMPORTED WATER. COLORADO RIVER WATER, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS AROUND 600 TO 700 PARTS PER MILLION OF SALINITY. THIS WATER HERE HAS 350 PARTS.

GAY YEE>> SHOENBERGER SAYS THIS PROVES FRESH WATER CAN BE PRODUCED FROM THE OCEAN.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> WE HAD THE SAME TECHNOLOGY YEARS AGO. FOR EXAMPLE, TEN YEARS AGO WE COULD DO THIS WITH THE REVERSE OSMOSIS PROCESS, BUT IT COST EIGHT TO TEN TIMES MORE THAN IMPORTED WATER. NOW WE CAN PRODUCE AND SELL THE WATER FOR ONLY 25 PERCENT MORE THAN IMPORTED WATER, SO WE'RE IN THE REALM OF FEASIBILITY.

GAY YEE>> AND THIS WOULD BE A WATER SUPPLY FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA THAT'S 100 PERCENT RELIABLE, UNLIKE THE IMPORTED WATER THAT'S EFFECTED BY THE WINTER SNOW PACK AND DROUGHT. THE OCEAN IS ONE WATER SOURCE WE CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON. IN EL SEGUNDO, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS ADAN ORTEGA, JR. HE IS VICE PRESIDENT FOR EXTERNAL AFFAIRS AT THE METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. MWD HAS A REAL STAKE IN THIS, BUT IS IT NOW ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> WELL, WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR TELLING US THAT THEY COULD PRODUCE THIS WATER FOR ABOUT $800 AN ACRE FOOT. WE FIGURED THAT, IF WE SUBSIDIZED A PERCENTAGE OF IT IN COMBINATION WITH PUBLIC AGENCIES THAT WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STEWARDSHIP OF THE SUPPLY, WE MIGHT BRING IT INTO RANGE WHERE IT WOULD BE ATTRACTIVE AT THE BEGINNING DURING DROUGHT PERIODS AND THEN EVENTUALLY --

JESS>> -- WHAT ARE YOU NOW PAYING? $400?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> YEAH, WATER RIGHT NOW THAT WE IMPORT FROM THE COLORADO RIVER AND NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, WE SELL AT ABOUT $421 AN ACRE FOOT, SO $550 DURING A DROUGHT ISN'T A BAD PRICE.

VAL>> OKAY, SO LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT BECAUSE WE'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH IT. SO YOU PAY ABOUT $420 AN ACRE FOOT. THE DESALINIZATION PLAN WOULD BE ABLE TO PRODUCE IT FOR $800 AND THEN YOU HELP SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> BUT DESALINATED WATER IS STILL GOING TO BE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN WHAT YOU CAN GET NOW.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> DESALINATED WATER WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE, BUT DURING A DROUGHT, WATER IS MORE EXPENSIVE IN GENERAL. THE GOVERNOR HAS A DROUGHT BANK, THERE'S AN ENVIRONMENTAL WATER ACCOUNT FOR WHEN WE HAVE ENDANGERED SPECIES EPISODES, AND THAT WATER GENERALLY WILL COST A LITTLE MORE. SO IT IS WITHIN A RANGE THAT THE REGION CAN ABSORB WITHOUT HAVING TO SPIKE WATER RATES OR DOING OTHER THINGS.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT. YOU FORGET THAT, IN A DROUGHT, THE PRICE POPS UP.

JESS>> EIGHT OR TEN YEARS AGO WHEN WE WERE SUFFERING A SERIOUS DROUGHT, IN FACT, THE TIME SANTA BARBARA BUILT THE DESALINIZATION PLANT UP THERE, WE WERE TOLD THAT THERE MIGHT BE A TECHNICAL BREAKTHROUGH THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO USE ALL THE WATER WE WANTED FROM THE OCEAN. YOU HAVE NOT ACHIEVED THAT?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> WELL, IT HASN'T BEEN AN OVERWHELMING BREAKTHROUGH. WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF GROUNDWATER CONTAMINATED BY SALTWATER, SO WE'VE BEEN DESALINATING THAT WATER. IT HAS LESS SALT. WE HAVE ABOUT THIRTEEN FACILITIES THROUGHOUT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA THAT ARE CURRENTLY DOING THAT, SO THAT ALLOWED US TO EVOLVE THE MEMBRANE TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS DESCRIBED IN THE SEGMENT. SECONDLY, THERE ARE SCENARIOS NOW WHERE PERHAPS WE CAN BUILD FACILITIES AT POWER PLANTS THAT ARE ALREADY TAKING WATER IN FROM THE OCEAN IN ORDER TO COOL THEIR TOWERS. SO THERE IS THE ABILITY NOW TO GET BENEFITS --

VAL>> -- ARE YOU SAYING THAT TO LOCATE A DESALINIZATION PLANT NEXT TO A POWER PLANT WOULD HELP WITH THE COST OF THE POWER, YOU'RE SAYING? OR BECAUSE THEY'RE ALREADY DRAWING IN OCEAN WATER, IT SAVES MONEY?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> IT WOULD BASICALLY HELP BY NOT HAVING TO BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO BRING THE WATER IN FROM THE OCEAN --

VAL>> -- OH, TO SUCTION, OKAY.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> THAT'S CORRECT. BUT SOME DISTRICTS, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT GETTING LEGISLATION TO GET PERMISSION TO GENERATE THEIR OWN POWER, SO THERE MAY BE ECONOMIES OVERALL THAT, JUST BY BEING SMART IN THE WAY THAT WE LEVERAGE EXISTING FACILITIES, WE CAN DRIVE DOWN THE COST.

VAL>> WELL, THIS IS QUITE AN IMPROVEMENT BECAUSE THE SANTA BARBARA PLANT ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO COST $2,000 AN ACRE FOOT, SO NOW IT'S COME DOWN TO $800 AN ACRE FOOT. THAT'S PROGRESS.

JESS>> WE'VE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE -- SANTA CATALINA, THE ISLAND, SURVIVES ON DESALINATED WATER, DO THEY NOT?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> WELL, YOU HAVE CATALINA AND THEN YOU HAVE PARTS OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND MANY PARTS OF THE MIDDLE EAST. AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS IS THE DRIEST YEAR SINCE 1951 AND WE'RE NOT EXPERIENCING THE KIND OF RATIONING THAT WE HAD IN THE EARLY 90'S.

THE REASON IS THAT WE'VE DIVERSIFIED OUR PORTFOLIO OF WATER, SO WE GET WATER FROM THE NORTH, WATER FROM THE COLORADO RIVER. WE HAVE THE LARGEST CONSERVATION PROGRAMS IN THE UNITED STATES. WE RECYCLE MORE WATER IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA THAN THEY DO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES. AND SO WE'D LIKE TO STAY TEN YEARS AHEAD OF THE SUPPLY CURVE AND DESALINATED WATER WILL HELP US STAY AHEAD OF THAT CURVE.

JESS>> IT' BEEN VERY HARD TO STAY AHEAD OF THE POPULATION GROWTH.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> WELL, YOU MIGHT BE SURPRISED. SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, DESPITE ALL OF THE STEREOTYPES, WE USE ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT OF WATER TODAY THAT WE USED IN THE 70'S EVEN THOUGH WE'VE GONE UP BY MORE THAN FIVE MILLION PEOPLE.

JESS>> WELL, THOSE LOW-FLOW TOILETS REALLY WORK, THEN. (LAUGHTER)

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> THE LOW-FLOW TOILETS WORKED AND ALL THE WATER RECYCLING THAT WE'RE DOING DOWN HERE HAS REALLY WORKED, SO IT'S A GOOD NEWS STORY.

VAL>> THAT IS GOOD. NOW WHAT IS THE POTENTIAL FOR DESALINATED WATER OVERALL? WHAT DO YOU THINK, SAY, TEN YEARS FROM NOW MIGHT BE THE PERCENTAGE OF OUR WATER SUPPLY THAT COMES FROM DESALINIZATION?

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> TEN YEARS FROM NOW, GIVEN WHERE WATER RATES ARE GOING AND THE FACT THAT WE'VE ALREADY DOCUMENTED THAT WE DO HAVE ENOUGH WATER FOR ABOUT THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS, IT COULD FORM AS MUCH AS TEN PERCENT OF OUR TOTAL SUPPLY, SO IT'S A REASONABLE AMOUNT.

VAL>> REASONABLE AMOUNT.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> YES.

VAL>> NEVER WILL BE ALL OR EVEN HALF, BUT --

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> -- BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PUT ALL OUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET, SO IT'S GOOD TO HAVE DIVERSITY IN OUR SUPPLY PORTFOLIO.

VAL>> ADAN ORTEGA FROM THE METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN.

ADAN ORTEGA, JR.>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, WE'LL GO ON PATROL WITH THE COAST GUARD. THEY'RE A MAJOR PART OF HOMELAND SECURITY, BUT CAN THEY STOP A TERRORIST FROM REACHING CALIFORNIA?

>> PRACTICALLY ANYBODY CAN GET INTO THE UNITED STATES AND IT'S ONLY THE ODD CHANCE THAT WE HAVE GOOD INTEL THAT ALLOWS US TO INTERCEPT THE THREAT, WHETHER IT'S A BOAT FULL OF ALIEN MIGRANTS OR WHETHER IT'S DRUG RUNNERS IN A "GO FAST".

JESS>> AS SUMMER APPROACHES, THE BORDER PATROL IS PREPARING FOR WHAT'S BEEN A YEARLY PROBLEM: ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS CAUGHT IN THE BLISTERING CALIFORNIA DESERT WITH NO WATER AND NO FOOD. IT'S ONE OF THE HAZARDS OF CROSSING THE BORDER ILLEGALLY.

VAL>> BUT DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THOSE IMMIGRANTS AND TO MAKE SURE THERE IS SOMEONE THERE TO RESCUE THEM? RECENT EFFORTS TO SEAL THE BORDER IN PLACES SUCH AS SAN DIEGO HAVE PROMPTED MANY IMMIGRANTS TO MOVE TOWARD THE MORE REMOTE DESERT AREAS. THERE'S LESS A CHANCE OF GETTING CAUGHT, BUT THERE'S A MUCH GREATER RISK OF GETTING LOST OR EVEN DYING. NOW THERE'S TALK THAT SOME GROUPS MAY SUE THE UNITED STATES FOR ENDANGERING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS JIM HIRSEN. HE'S A LAW PROFESSOR AND SYNDICATED COMMENTARY FROM ORANGE COUNTY. ALSO JOINING US IS NICOLASSA GALVEZ, WHO IS AN IMMIGRANT ADVOCATE WITH THE [HOVANIS] GROUP. THIS IS A HUMANE RATHER THAN A LEGAL ISSUE, IS IT NOT?

JIM HIRSEN>> OH, I THINK IT'S BOTH AND I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT THERE'S A MIXED SIGNAL BEING SENT. OUR LAW SAYS ONE THING AND THE ACTIONS OF BOTH THE MEXICAN AND AMERICAN GOVERNMENTS IN SETTING UP THESE TOWERS SAY SOMETHING ELSE. YOU KNOW, THE RULE --

VAL>> -- THE TOWERS BEING --

JIM HIRSEN>> THEY HAVE THESE TOWERS WITH BEACONS OF LIGHT AND IN MEXICO --

JESS>> -- TO GUIDE THEM.

JIM HIRSEN>> TO GUIDE THEM, YEAH. SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE RULE OF LAW IS A HALLMARK OF REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY, TO DISTINGUISH WHAT NICOLASSA'S GROUP DOES, WHICH IS A PRIVATE HUMANE ACTION. WHEN GOVERNMENT GETS INVOLVED WHERE THE LAWS SPRING FROM, ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND IT UNDERMINES RESPECT FOR THE LAW.

JESS>> BUT THE LAW PREVENTS HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS FROM PLACING WATERING STATIONS IN THE DESERT.

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> TO BE CLEAR, OUR WATER STATIONS ARE NOT PATHWAYS OR BEACONS OR POINTS OF WHERE THE IMMIGRANTS SHOULD GO. THEY CLEARLY PROVIDE JUST WATER AND, IN ADDITION, THEY'RE PLACED WHERE BODIES HAVE BEEN FOUND. SO WE TRY TO TARGET PLACES WHERE IMMIGRANTS MAYBE GO, BUT THEY'RE NOT PATHWAYS OR DIRECTIONS.

VAL>> SO YOUR GROUP ACTUALLY GOES OUT AND PLACES WATER STATIONS IN THE DESERT?

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> YES.

VAL>> ABOUT HOW MANY WATER STATIONS DO YOU HAVE?

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> WE HOPE TO BE UP TO 400. I THINK CURRENTLY -- WE JUST RESTARTED THIS SUMMER. THERE ARE 100 CURRENTLY.

JESS>> BUT IT DOES LEAVE OPEN THE QUESTION OF ARE YOU INVITING SOMEONE TO COMMIT AN ILLEGAL ACT BY PROVIDING WATER FOR THEM IN THAT CASE?

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO COME WHETHER WE DO ANYTHING OR NOT. OUR FOCUS IS TO SAVE LIVES. WE'RE NOT PREVENTING PEOPLE FROM COMING, WE'RE NOT ENCOURAGING. IT'S A HUMANITARIAN PROJECT WITH OUR MAIN GOAL OF SAVINGS LIVES. THAT'S OUR FOCUS. WE DON'T GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS OR THE LEGALITIES. WE WORK WITH LOCAL GOVERNMENTS AND THE BORDER PATROL TO MAKE SURE WE'RE NOT BREAKING ANY LAWS. ALL OF OUR VOLUNTEERS MUST BE UNITED STATES CITIZENS. THERE IS NO CITIZENSHIP STATUS IN QUESTION.

JIM HIRSEN>> SEE, THE PROBLEM IS, THIS LINE OF REASON HAS EXTENDED TO BOTH THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT WHERE GOVERNMENTAL RESCUE STATIONS HAVE BEEN SET UP WITH LIGHTS TO GUIDE PEOPLE ACROSS THE BORDER. WHAT THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT IS IN ESSENCE DOING THEN IS FACILITATING THE BREAKING OF THE LAW, FACILITATING ILLEGAL CONDUCT WHICH UNDERMINES THE RESPECTABILITY OF LAW. IT'S ENCOURAGING, ESPECIALLY IN A POST-9/11 WORLD WHERE IMMIGRATION POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY ARE INTERTWINED.

WE JUST HAD A NEWS STORY WHERE TEN TONS OF CYANIDE WERE MISSING BECAUSE OF A HIJACKING IN MEXICO. IT WAS JUST FOUND. IT WAS JUST ON THE NEWS TODAY. IT JUST UNDERSCORES THE TERRIBLE IMPORTANCE RIGHT NOW OF BEING ABLE TO SECURE OUR BORDERS AND TO RESPECT, YOU KNOW, THE RULE OF LAW. I MEAN, IT'S TERRIBLY IMPORTANT.

VAL>> NOW ONE OF THE REASONING ON THE PART OF THOSE GROUPS WHO ARE PUSHING FOR GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, STATE PARKS AND SO FORTH TO PROVIDE WATER IS THAT THEY SAY "YOU'VE CRACKED DOWN THE BORDER ON THE CITY, YOU KNOW, SAN DIEGO AND EL PASO. THAT HAS PUSHED THE ILLEGAL MIGRATION PATH INTO MORE DANGEROUS, REMOTE DESERTS WHERE THEY'RE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO DIE. THE LEAST WE CAN DO IS PUT SOME WATER OUT FOR THEM."

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> I MEAN, IT IS A QUESTION --

VAL>> -- YOU DON'T THINK THEY HAVE A LEGAL BASIS FOR THAT?

JIM HIRSEN>> I REALLY DON'T BECAUSE I SEE IT AS SORT OF A COGNIZANT DISSONANCE, IN A WAY. AS I SAID, THE MESSAGE OF THE LAW SAYS ONE THING AND THIS MESSAGE SAYS ANOTHER AND ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. WE'RE UNDERMINING OUR OWN LAW WHEN WE DO THAT. IN 1965 WE HAD 110,000 PEOPLE CROSSING THE BORDER. IN 2000 WE HAD 1.6 MILLION. IT'S VERY OBVIOUS THAT OUR POLICIES ARE NOT DISCOURAGING THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR, BUT ENCOURAGING IT.

JESS>> AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE ARE MANY WATERING STATIONS IN THE DESERT AREA, BUT THEY WERE ALL PUT UP THERE TO PROTECT ANIMALS, TO PROTECT WILDLIFE, BUT TO PROTECT HUMANS?

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> I MEAN, THESE ARE PEOPLE. THESE ARE FAMILIES. THESE ARE CHILDREN. I MEAN, WE CAN'T FORGET THESE AREN'T, YOU KNOW, CRIMINALS. THESE AREN'T -- YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE COMING HERE TO WORK. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMING HERE TO SEE THEIR FAMILIES. I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT WHO -- WE'RE NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ENCOURAGING THEM, PROTECTING THEM, GIVING THEM PATHWAYS. I MEAN, IT'S REALLY SIMPLE. WE PROVIDE WATER, GALLONS OF WATER, IN A BOX.

VAL>> BUT YOU ARE A PRIVATE, NONPROFIT GROUP.

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> YES.

VAL>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THOSE GROUPS WHO SAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD -- WHETHER IT BE THE INS OR OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY -- SHOULD DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING?

NICOLASSA GALVEZ>> WE DEFINITELY THINK THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE INVOLVED IN SOLVING THE PROBLEM AT THE BASIS. I MEAN, RIGHT NOW WE'RE DOING A TEMPORARY IMMEDIATE THING TO SAVE LIVES. I THINK THAT THERE'S DEFINITELY -- THIS ISN'T SOMETHING WE WANT TO BE DOING FOREVER. IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THERE WAS SOME OTHER WAY OR METHOD TO EITHER PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING OR GIVE THEM ANOTHER WAY.

JIM HIRSEN>> SEE, THERE'S A FLAW IN THE LOGIC, THE WAY I SEE IT. IT WOULD BE LIKE PEOPLE ENGAGING IN DRUNK DRIVING. WE DON'T WANT THEM TO ENGAGE IN DRUNK DRIVING, BUT THEY DO IT ANYWAY. SO THE IDEA WOULD BE TO HAVE A DRUNK DRIVING LANE ON OUR FREEWAYS WHERE ONLY DRUNK DRIVERS DRIVE AND IT WOULD BE SAFER. BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IT WOULD ENCOURAGE DRUNK DRIVING. THAT KIND OF THINKING MIGHT SAY, WELL, IT SAVES SOME LIVES.

I APPLAUD THE COMPASSION FOR THE FAMILIES, BUT I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO HAVE COMPASSION FOR THE CITIZENS OF AMERICA RIGHT NOW. PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ATTRACTED TO A BETTER LIFE HERE, BUT RIGHT NOW THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COME HERE TO END OUR LIVES. SO THE SANCTITY AND SOVEREIGNTY OF THE BORDER IS CRITICAL IN A POST-9/11 ENVIRONMENT.

JESS>> ISN'T THE ANSWER TO THAT A FURTHER TIGHTENING OF THE BORDER?

JIM HIRSEN>> WELL, IN A SENSE, YES. I MEAN, WHEN YOU SAY FURTHER TIGHTENING OF THE BORDER, YOU CHARACTERIZE IT THAT WAY, BUT I THINK WHAT IT HAS TO DO WITH, IF WE'RE GOING TO CHANGE THE LAW, THEN WE SHOULD CHANGE IT THROUGH NORMAL REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT. IF WE'RE GOING TO RESPECT THE LAW, WE SHOULD ENFORCE IT. OTHERWISE, YOU KNOW, WE'D BE INSTALLING SOMETHING MORE EFFECTIVE THAN JUST WATER STATIONS.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE'LL HAVE TO WATCH THIS ONE. JIM HIRSEN FROM ORANGE COUNTY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING. AND NICOLASSA GALVEZ FROM [HOVANIS, INC.], THANK YOU SO MUCH.

JIM HIRSEN>> PLEASURE.

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

JESS>> DAVID HOCKNEY IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST CELEBRATED ARTISTS OF OUR TIME. HE WAS BORN IN BRITAIN, BURST ONTO THE INTERNATIONAL SCENE IN THE EARLY 60'S AND, WITHIN A FEW YEARS, HE HAD MOVED TO LOS ANGELES.

VAL>> HOCKNEY IS WELL-KNOWN FOR HIS VIVID PAINTINGS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BUT PHOTOGRAPHY ALSO PLAYS A LARGE ROLE IN HIS WORK. WE TALKED WITH THE ARTIST ABOUT HIS EXPERIMENTS WITH IMAGES AND MAKING PICTURES.

[FILM CLIP]

DAVID HOCKNEY>> PHOTOGRAPHY IS THE WAY MOST PEOPLE SEE THE WORLD TODAY. WE ARE FASCINATED BY TWO DIMENSIONS, OF COURSE, PROBABLY BECAUSE TWO DIMENSIONS DON'T REALLY EXIST. IT'S A FASCINATING THREE-DIMENSIONAL WORLD PUT INTO TWO DIMENSIONS. I MEAN, IT'S ALWAYS FASCINATING TO ME. ALL MY LIFE IT'S BEEN FASCINATING. I SUPPOSE IT WILL BE TO ANYBODY WHO PAINTS, ANYBODY WHO MAKES PICTURES IN ANY WAY. SO HOW MANY WAYS CAN YOU MAKE THEM? YOU MAKE THEM BY HAND AND EYE, THE BRUSH, VERY EXCITING WAYS TO DO IT, BUT PHOTOGRAPHY IS A VERY COMMON UBIQUITOUS METHOD TODAY. SO I WOULD EXPLORE IT AND THIS IS MY EXPLORATIONS.

FOR ABOUT A YEAR OR MORE, WANTING TO PLAY WITH ANY KIND OF THING THAT YOU COULD CALL A CAMERA. THESE WERE MADE FOR A FAX MACHINE. I JUST SENT OUT VAST NUMBERS OF FAXES TO PEOPLE. THEY WERE JUST PICTURES. PLAYING WITH PRINTING, PLAYING WITH REPRODUCTION ITSELF AND, AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS PLAYING WITH SMALL OFFICE COPIERS. MEANING THESE ARE ALL MACHINES THAT SOME KIND OF LENS OR CAMERA IS SEEING THINGS AND PLAYING WITH THOSE, YOU SEE? BUT PLAYING MOSTLY WITH A FLAT SURFACE, MEANING IT'S NOT REPRESENTING ANYTHING SPATIAL. IN DRAWING, OF COURSE, EVERYTHING IS MADE BY THE HANDS. IN REPRODUCTION, THINGS CAN BE MADE BY THE HANDS, BUT NEED NOT NECESSARILY BE MADE BY THE HANDS, AND IT'S THAT AREA THAT I WAS EXPLORING.

[FILM CLIP]

DAVID HOCKNEY>> THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF A BOTTOM PART OF A PAINTING LEANING AGAINST THE FLOOR. THAT'S ALL IT ACTUALLY IS. SO I'M PUTTING PICTURES WITHIN PICTURES. AGAIN, IT'S USING ILLUSIONS. YOU KNOW THAT THE PHOTOGRAPH WILL CREATE A CERTAIN KIND OF ILLUSION. GENERALLY, I'VE POINTED OUT, PHOTOGRAPHY CAN CREATE AN ILLUSION NEAR A SURFACE PERHAPS OF A FEW INCHES IN DEPTH, BUT ACTUALLY IT CAN'T GO BEYOND THAT VERY MUCH.

[FILM CLIP]

DAVID HOCKNEY>> I LIVE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF HOLLYWOOD. I DON'T HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH IT REALLY. THE CONNECTIONS I'M VERY, VERY AWARE OF. I MEAN, HOLLYWOOD IS A PICTURE-MAKING CENTER, SO THEY TAKE PICTURE-MAKING SERIOUSLY. MEDIEVAL FLORENCE WAS A FASCINATING CITY BECAUSE IT HAD PEOPLE IN IT WHO WERE TRYING TO FIND VERY VIVID WAYS TO DEPICT REALITY. WELL, 21ST CENTURY HOLLYWOOD HAS PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO FIND WAYS TO DEPICT REALITY. I'VE TAKEN PHOTOGRAPHS FOR YEARS. I'VE PLAYED WITH CAMERAS, BUT I TEND TO THINK IT'S ONLY ONE WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD AND IT'S NOT THAT CLOSE TO REALITY ACTUALLY.

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DAVID HOCKNEY>> REALLY, SOME OF THIS WORK IS JUST MY VISUAL TAKE ON A GOOD DAY THAT COULD BE THERE AT TIMES AND HARDLY IS. I MEAN, (INAUDIBLE). YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMAGE THAT'S NOT ARTIFICIAL. IT'S NOT BEEN DEFINED OR MADE BY SOME INDIVIDUAL SOMEWHERE WHO'S DECIDING WHERE THE EDGE OF THIS PICTURE IS -- THIS CAMERAMAN IS SOMEBODY MAKING DECISIONS. WHAT ARE IMAGES? HOW POWERFUL ARE THEY? IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW THE PICTURE IS MADE. INDICATIONS OF THEM STILL APPLY. YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.

VAL>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. A REMINDER, CALIFORNIA CONNECTED WITH DAVID BRANCACCIO AIRS TONIGHT AT 9:00 P.M.

JESS>> AND WE INVITE YOU TO CHECK OUR WEBSITE FOR UPDATES AND TRANSCRIPTS. THE ADDRESS IS WWW.KCET.ORG. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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