7/9/02

LC020709

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> SMOKING AND LUNG CANCER. THERE'S PLENTY OF EVIDENCE ONE CAUSES THE OTHER, BUT IS THE PUBLIC GETTING ALL THE FACTS?

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> YOU NEVER SEE A "WALK FOR LUNG CANCER" OR A "RUN FOR LUNG CANCER" AS YOU WOULD FOR THE OTHER DISEASE. AND IT IS TRUE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MINDLESSLY BLAME THE SMOKER FOR CAUSING THEIR OWN DISEASE.

VAL>> WHY CAN'T BIG BUSINESS JUST DO THE RIGHT THING? FROM ENRON TO WORLDCOM TO MARTHA STEWART, AMERICA'S CORPORATE ELITE SEEM TO BE ETHICALLY IMPAIRED. TONIGHT SOME THOUGHTS ON BOARDROOM SCANDALS AND THE PUBLIC BACKLASH.

JESS>> WHAT COULD BE CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT 31 LITTLE WORDS RECITED BY MILLIONS OF SCHOOL CHILDREN EVERY DAY? ASK PATT MORRISON.

PATT MORRISON>> PLEDGE. IT'S NOT JUST A FURNITURE POLISH ANYMORE. THE DUST-UP OVER THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE -- ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

VAL>> IT'S BEEN A WINDOW ON TWENTY YEARS OF CULTURAL CHANGES AND PERSONAL CHALLENGES FOR GAYS AND LESBIANS IN AMERICA, A FILM FESTIVAL THAT'S TACKLED TOUGH AND SENSITIVE TOPICS FROM POLITICS TO AIDS. NOW "OUTFEST 2002" IS MARKING TWO DECADES OF FILMMAKING BY AND ABOUT GAYS AND LESBIANS.

JESS>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

TONIGHT A LOOK AT AN ILLNESS THAT SUFFERS FROM BEING POLITICALLY INCORRECT: LUNG CANCER. IT KILLS FAR MORE PEOPLE THAN AIDS OR BREAST CANCER, BUT GETS JUST A FRACTION OF THE RESEARCH DOLLARS SPENT ON EITHER OF THOSE DISEASES.

VAL>> SOME SAY IT'S BECAUSE LUNG CANCER IS MOST OFTEN LINKED TO SMOKING AND THAT VICTIMS HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME. BUT AS YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE, THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY ABOUT LUNG CANCER. PHILIP BRUCE HAS OUR REPORT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> TODAY 74-YEAR-OLD MARIE KAPLAN IS ALIVE AND WELL, BUT SIX YEARS AGO, SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS DYING OF LUNG CANCER. HER FAMILY DOCTOR HAD TAKEN A CHEST X-RAY DURING HER ANNUAL CHECKUP AND FOUND CANCER IN ONE LUNG. FURTHER TESTING BROUGHT EVEN WORSE NEWS.

MARIE KAPLAN>> I WAS TOLD THAT I HAD CANCER IN BOTH LUNGS AND THEREFORE I WOULDN'T SURVIVE VERY LONG AND THAT THERE WASN'T TOO MUCH THAT THEY COULD DO ABOUT IT. THEY THOUGHT IT WAS A METASTASIS FROM ONE LUNG TO THE OTHER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> CHEMOTHERAPY WAS KAPLAN'S ONLY RECOURSE, BUT THAT DIDN'T WORK.

MARIE KAPLAN>> AND AFTER SIX MONTHS OF CHEMO, THE CANCER HAD GROWN SLIGHTLY AND I WAS TOLD TO COME BACK WHEN I HAD SYMPTOMS AND, AT THAT POINT, I WOULD BE GIVEN ANOTHER DOSE OF A DIFFERENT SORT OF CHEMO, BUT THAT WOULD ONLY ENSURE THAT I WOULD LIVE A FEW MONTHS LONGER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> KAPLAN WASN'T READY TO GIVE UP. INSTEAD, SHE CAME HERE TO CITY OF HOPE FOR A SECOND OPINION AND THORACIC SURGEON, FREDERIC GRANNIS, HAD SOME GOOD NEWS. SHE DIDN'T HAVE CANCER THAT HAD SPREAD FROM ONE LUNG TO THE OTHER. INSTEAD, SHE HAD SEPARATE CANCERS IN EACH LUNG. BOTH CANCERS WERE EARLY STAGE AND THAT HAS MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE. MARIE KAPLAN HAD SURGERY TO REMOVE PART OF EACH LUNG AND HAS BEEN FINE EVER SINCE.

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> SHE IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF RESULT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE WITH LUNG CANCER SCREENING IN THE FUTURE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> KAPLAN WAS FORTUNATE THAT HER CHEST X-RAY PICKED UP THE CANCER. OFTEN, X-RAYS DON'T SHOW ANYTHING UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> LUNG CANCER, WE'VE SHOWN ALMOST NO PROGRESS. THE FIVE-YEAR CURE RATE HAS GONE FROM TWELVE PERCENT IN 1976 TO FOURTEEN PERCENT IN THE YEAR 2002, SO WE'VE HAD REALLY MINIMAL PROGRESS IN THE CURE RATE OF LUNG CANCER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT NOW, TWENTY MEDICAL CENTERS AROUND THE WORLD INCLUDING CITY OF HOPE ARE STUDYING WHETHER A PAINLESS NON-INVASIVE TEST CAN FIND LUNG CANCER EARLY ENOUGH TO CURE IT. IT'S CALLED A LOW-DOSE SPIRAL CT SCAN.

DR. ARNIE ROTTER>> THE OBJECT WITH A SCREENING STUDY IS TO FIND THE LUNG CANCERS EARLY, AS SMALL AS POSSIBLE, AND CLEARLY IN THE RANGE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, IN THE ONE CENTIMETER RANGE, THE CHEST X-RAY DOES POORLY AND A CT SCAN DOES MUCH BETTER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> ARNIE ROTTER IS THE STUDY'S LEAD RADIOLOGIST AT CITY OF HOPE. HE SAYS THE CT SCANNER IS ABOUT FOUR TIMES MORE SENSITIVE THAN A CHEST X-RAY FOR FINDING LUNG CANCER. THIS X-RAY, FOR EXAMPLE, SHOWS NO SIGN OF LUNG CANCER, BUT LOOK AT THE CT SCAN ON THE SAME PATIENT. A SMALL LUNG CANCER IS VISIBLE HERE IN THE AREA CIRCLED IN RED.

DR. ARNIE ROTTER>> WE FOUND MANY PEOPLE WITH NODULES THAT POTENTIALLY COULD TURN OUT TO BE LUNG CANCERS WHICH WE WILL FOLLOW UP ON VARYING SCHEDULES TO SEE IF THEY'VE GROWN. IF THEY GROW, THEN WE RECOMMEND FOR THEM TO BE BIOPSIED.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GRANNIS HOPES THAT THE CT SCAN WILL DO FOR LUNG CANCER WHAT MAMMOGRAPHY HAS DONE FOR BREAST CANCER. HE SAYS, UP UNTIL NOW, THERE HASN'T BEEN THE SAME KIND OF WILL TO COMBAT LUNG CANCER AS HAS BEEN TO FIGHT BREAST CANCER.

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> I THINK THAT THERE IS A FEELING AMONG A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT LUNG CANCER HAS BIOLOGIC PREDETERMINISM, THAT IT'S A DISEASE THAT INHERENTLY YOU JUST CAN'T CURE. I DISAGREE WITH THAT COMPLETELY. I THINK IT'S A DISEASE VERY MUCH LIKE BREAST CANCER. YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER THAT, IF YOU GO BACK THIRTY YEARS, A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT BREAST CANCER WAS A DISEASE THAT WAS PREDETERMINED AND COULDN'T BE CURED.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GRANNIS LOOKS TO THE ACTIVISM OF BREAST CANCER SURVIVORS AND THOSE WHO'VE BEATEN OTHER DISEASES SUCH AS AIDS FOR SOME IMPORTANT LESSONS. FAR MORE PEOPLE DIE OF LUNG CANCER EVERY YEAR THAN OF BREAST, PROSTATE AND COLON CANCERS COMBINED, BUT THE RESOURCES TO FIGHT LUNG CANCER HAVE BEEN NOWHERE IN PROPORTION TO THE SIZE OF THE PROBLEM.

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> I THINK THAT PART OF THE REASON IS THAT THERE'S NO ACTIVISM FOR LUNG CANCER. YOU NEVER SEE A "WALK FOR LUNG CANCER" OR A "RUN FOR LUNG CANCER" AS YOU WOULD FOR THE OTHER DISEASE. AND IT IS TRUE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MINDLESSLY BLAME THE SMOKER FOR CAUSING THEIR OWN DISEASE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> JOAN TOSCANO, HERSELF A FORMER SMOKER, DOESN'T KNOW IF THERE'S A SPECIAL STIGMA ATTACHED TO LUNG CANCER, BUT SHE DOES KNOW THAT THE DIAGNOSIS IS FAR MORE FRIGHTENING THAN THE SKIN, CERVICAL AND BREAST CANCER SHE HAD PREVIOUSLY FACED.

JOAN TOSCANO>> WITH THE OTHER CANCERS, THERE WAS ALWAYS HOPE, THERE WAS ALWAYS TREATMENT. THERE WAS NO QUESTION OF SURVIVAL. WITH THE LUNG CANCER, THAT'S VERY MUCH IN QUESTION.

PHILIP BRUCE>> TOSCANO HAD PART OF A LUNG REMOVED AND HAS THE COMFORT OF KNOWING THAT HER CANCER GROWS MORE SLOWLY THAN OTHERS, BUT SHE'S WORRIED THAT IF DOCTORS DO FIND MORE CANCER IN HER LUNGS, THEY MAY HAVE NO MORE TREATMENTS TO OFFER HER.

JOAN TOSCANO>> WITH THE LUNG CANCER, IT IS ALWAYS THERE. IT'S ON MY SHOULDER 24 HOURS A DAY. IT NEVER LEAVES ME.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IN RECENT YEARS, THE NUMBER OF MEN WITH LUNG CANCER HAS DROPPED SLIGHTLY, BUT THE SAME ISN'T TRUE FOR WOMEN. THEIR NUMBERS ARE INCREASING AND, UNLIKE MEN, A QUARTER OF ALL WOMEN HAVE NEVER SMOKED. FREDRIC GRANNIS WANTS TO SEE WOMEN TAKE ON LUNG CANCER.

DR. FREDRIC GRANNIS>> I THINK THAT LUNG CANCER NEEDS TO BECOME A WOMAN'S ISSUE. WOMEN HAVE BEEN TREMENDOUSLY POWERFUL IN, FOR EXAMPLE, MOTHERS AGAINST DRUNK DRIVERS AND IN BREAST CANCER RESEARCH IN INFLUENCING PUBLIC OPINION TO HELP SOLVE THE PROBLEMS. I THINK THAT LUNG CANCER IS SUCH A PROBLEM.

JESS>> RESEARCHERS AT THE CITY OF HOPE ARE LOOKING FOR SMOKERS TO JOIN THEIR STUDY. THEY NEED PEOPLE WHO ARE OVER FORTY YEARS OF AGE AND HAVE SMOKED A PACK A DAY FOR AT LEAST TEN YEARS. YOU CAN CONTACT THE RESEARCHERS THROUGH THE CITY OF HOPE AT THE WEBSITE ON YOUR SCREEN NOW.

[WWW.CITYOFHOPE.ORG]

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, WHOEVER DREAMED THAT DISCARDED COMPUTERS WOULD BECOME A SERIOUS HAZARDOUS WASTE PROBLEM FOR CITIES? WE'LL LOOK AT E-WASTE AND HOW SOME PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH OUR HIGH-TECH JUNK.

>> I DREAM ABOUT DEAD COMPUTERS ALL THE TIME AND THE MORE I DREAM ABOUT IT, THE MORE IT FEELS LIKE I'M JUST GETTING OVERWHELMED WITH THESE THINGS, SO THE PROBLEM IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY. IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET BIGGER FROM HERE ON OUT.

JESS>> IT SEEMS THAT SOME OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST CORPORATIONS AND THEIR ACCOUNTANTS COULD USE A COURSE OR TWO IN REMEDIAL MATH. THE NUMBERS HAVEN'T ADDED UP FOR THE LIKES OF ENRON, WORLDCOM AND A HOST OF OTHERS, AND NOW THE SCANDALS HAVE EVEN TARNISHED PERFECTION IN THE FORM OF MARTHA STEWART. WHAT'S NEXT?

VAL>> WELL, TONIGHT WE'LL PUT THAT QUESTION TO SOMEONE WHO'S GIVEN CORPORATE ETHICS A LOT OF THOUGHT. JOINING US IS DOV SEIDMAN. HE IS FOUNDER OF LRN, THE LEGAL KNOWLEDGE COMPANY WHICH HELPS SOME OF AMERICA'S BIGGEST CORPORATIONS ADOPT HIGH ETHICAL AND LEGAL STANDARDS. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

DOV SEIDMAN>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> FROM YOUR VIEWPOINT, HOW CLOSE ARE WE TO CONSIDERING BUSINESS ETHICS AN OXYMORON?

DOV SEIDMAN>> I THINK BUSINESS ETHICS IS AN OXYMORON BECAUSE I THINK THE ONLY ETHICS IS INDIVIDUAL ETHICS. I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING SUCH AS BUSINESS ETHICS. THE ONLY ETHICS THAT MATTER IS ETHICS PER SE, JUST DOING THE RIGHT THING.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE SAYING IT ULTIMATELY GETS DOWN TO THE INDIVIDUAL? OUR CONFIDENCE IN CORPORATE AMERICA, IN ESSENCE, IS OUR CONFIDENCE IN THE INDIVIDUALS WHO LEAD CORPORATE AMERICA?

DOV SEIDMAN>> I THINK THE INDIVIDUALS WHO LEAD CORPORATE AMERICA, FIRST AND FOREMOST, BUT THE INDIVIDUALS THAT MAKE UP AMERICAN ENTERPRISES AND GLOBAL ENTERPRISES. EVERYBODY IN A BUSINESS HAS AN OBLIGATION TO DO THE RIGHT THING. I BELIEVE THAT THE LEADERS ON TOP HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO LEAD IN THAT CAPACITY.

JESS>> LOOKING AT SOME OF THE LEADERS ON TOP NOW WHO MANY HAVE TOPPLED FROM THOSE HIGH POSITIONS AND LOOKING AT THE INVESTIGATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW, ARE WE GOING TO SEE MAJOR CORPORATE EXECUTIVES GOING TO JAIL?

DOV SEIDMAN>> IF I HAD TO PREDICT, I THINK SO. I THINK --

JESS>> -- SHOULD THEY?

DOV SEIDMAN>> WELL, WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT WE ARE A REGULATED SOCIETY. WE HAVE LAWS AND, IN FACT, CERTAIN LAWS HAVE PROBABLY BEEN BROKEN. LEGAL LINES HAVE BEEN CROSSED. BUT I THINK THE GREATEST COMPANIES DO MORE THAN LIVE BY THE LEGAL MINIMUMS. IT WAS SUPREME COURT JUSTICE POTTER STEWART WHO ADMONISHED US TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DOING THAT WHICH YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO DO AND DOING THAT WHICH IS RIGHT. THE GREAT COMPANIES DO WHAT IS ETHICALLY RIGHT AND HOLD THEMSELVES TO A HIGHER STANDARD THAN THE LEGAL MINIMUMS.

VAL>> SO THIS SOUNDS AS THOUGH YOU'RE SAYING REGULATE ALL YOU WANT. IN THE END, THAT'S NOT WHAT DETERMINES WHETHER WE HAVE AN ETHICAL BUSINESS CULTURE.

DOV SEIDMAN>> CORRECT. I THINK COMPANIES WHO HAVE AN ETHICAL BUSINESS CULTURE HAVE PUT ETHICS AT THE CENTER, HAVE REINFORCED THAT AND THEY REWARD EMPLOYEES FOR DOING THE RIGHT THING AND THEY, FRANKLY, PUNISH EMPLOYEES FOR DOING THE WRONG THING.

JESS>> HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON? HOW LONG HAVE WE BEEN DECEIVED BY SOME OF CORPORATE AMERICA? OR IS IT THAT WHEN THINGS WERE GOOD, WHEN THE STOCK MARKET WAS ROARING, NOBODY QUESTIONED IT?

DOV SEIDMAN>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT WE HAD THE QUIZ SHOW SCANDALS ON TV, WE HAD THE SAVINGS AND LOANS SCANDALS, THE JUNK BOND SCANDALS. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT WE SEEM TO BE MIRED IN SCANDAL. I DO BELIEVE THAT WE'RE LIVING IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ETHICAL CRISIS, BUT ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE SEEING THE LIGHT OF DAY TODAY ARE REPORTING ABOUT TRANSGRESSIONS SUCH AS COOKING THE BOOKS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE FOR OVER FOUR TO FIVE YEARS.

WHAT I THINK HAPPENS IN BOOM TIMES WHICH YOU'VE MENTIONED IS THAT WE MIGHT BECOME SOMEWHAT ETHICALLY COMPLACENT AND WE MIGHT CUT MORE CORNERS THINKING THAT WE WON'T GET CAUGHT. BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS THAT THE ELEVENTH COMMANDMENT, THOU SHALL NOT GET CAUGHT, NO LONGER APPLIES. EVERYONE SEEMS TO GET CAUGHT. THERE'S GREATER TRANSPARENCY IN BUSINESS. IT'S LITERALLY LIKE PLAYING POKER WITH ALL YOUR CARDS FACE UP. THAT'S --

JESS>> -- AND THERE ARE A FEW JOKERS IN THAT DECK TOO, AREN'T THERE? YOU LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE RUNNING ENRON AND WORLDCOM.

DOV SEIDMAN>> I MEAN, THERE'S ALWAYS A FEW JOKERS, BUT LET'S NOT FORGET THAT WE HAVE ONE OF THE GREATEST ECONOMIES AND MARKETS AROUND THE WORLD AND I THINK WE HAVE THAT KIND OF ECONOMY BECAUSE, FOR THE MOST PART, PEOPLE WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING, THEY DO THE RIGHT THING AND MOST COMPANIES DO PUT ETHICS AT THE CENTER. WHAT'S UNFORTUNATE IS THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE, AND FRANKLY, HIGH-PROFILE INDIVIDUALS, HAVE THIS TIME TAKEN CERTAIN ACTIONS THAT REALLY HURT SO MANY MORE PEOPLE. THAT PERHAPS IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE THIS TIME THAN THE PAST.

WALL STREET HAS BECOME MAIN STREET. EVERYBODY HAS A STAKE IN BUSINESS EITHER THROUGH THEIR PENSION FUND OR THROUGH THEIR INDIVIDUAL INVESTMENT ACCOUNTS AND MORE PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN HURT BY THE VERY INDIVIDUALS WHOSE ACTIONS HAVE HURT THEM. I THINK THERE'S MORE ANGER THIS TIME AROUND THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE WALKED OFF WITH MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND OTHERS HAVE LOST THEIR RETIREMENT FUNDS.

VAL>> SO IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT REGULATION IS NOT THE ULTIMATE ARBITRAL, THE ULTIMATE GUARANTEE OF ETHICAL BEHAVIOR, SO THEREFORE WOULD YOU SAY CONGRESS SHOULD NOT PASS LAWS OR THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION SHOULD NOT CRACK DOWN ON CORPORATE FRAUD?

DOV SEIDMAN>> I THINK THAT THE LAWS THAT WE HAVE TODAY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT CLOSELY AND I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED BASED ON THE LAWS THAT WE HAVE.

VAL>> DO YOU THINK THEY'RE ADEQUATE AS THEY EXIST TODAY?

DOV SEIDMAN>> TO THE EXTENT WE HAVE LOOPHOLES, I WOULD TRY TO CLOSE THOSE TOO. BUT MORE THAN ANYTHING, I WOULD FOCUS ON THE ETHICS. KEEP IN MIND THAT ETHICS, AS I SAID, IS MORE THAN THE LAW'S MINIMUMS, BUT THE TIDE IS ON OUR SIDE. WHAT'S HAPPENED TODAY IS IT USED TO BE THAT A VALUE OF A BUSINESS WAS MUCH MORE A FUNCTION OF WHAT'S ON ITS BALANCE SHEET, TRADITIONAL HARD ASSETS.

TODAY, AS WE'VE SEEN, THE VALUE OF AN ENTERPRISE IS MUCH MORE DIRECTLY LINKED TO A COMPANY'S REPUTATION OR TO A LEADER'S REPUTATION. TO THE EXTENT THAT WALL STREET AND MAIN STREET CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT THE REPUTATION IS BASED ON THE FACT THAT A COMPANY WILL DO THE RIGHT THING, WILL BE ACCURATE IN TERMS OF ITS REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT ITS PRODUCTS AND SERVICES, THEN THAT COMPANY WILL ENJOY A LONGSTANDING REPUTATION. IN THAT WAY, THE MARKET IS REGULATING. PEOPLE WILL ONLY HAVE A REPUTATION IF THEY DO THE RIGHT THING AND CAN BE SEEN TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

JESS>> WHEN DO YOU AND YOUR COMPANY, LEGAL KNOWLEDGE COMPANY, GET CALLED IN? WHEN A COMPANY GETS IN TROUBLE OR BEFORE IT GETS IN TROUBLE?

DOV SEIDMAN>> FOR THE MOST PART, IT'S BEEN THE MOST PROGRESSIVE COMPANIES WHO ALREADY HAVE DISPLAYED A COMMITMENT AND GREAT INVESTMENT IN CREATING A DO-IT-RIGHT CULTURE.

JESS>> AFTER THEY'VE BEEN CAUGHT?

DOV SEIDMAN>> NO, THESE ARE SOME -- JOHNSON AND JOHNSON, DOW CHEMICAL, BOEING, RAYTHEON, COMPANIES WHO HAVE A TRADITION OF INVESTING AND CREATING A LEGAL AND ETHICALLY AWARE WORKFORCE. WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS THAT, IN ADDITION TO COMPANIES WHO'VE ALWAYS RECOGNIZED THAT VIRTUE IS ITS OWN REWARD, THAT DOING THE RIGHT THING IS THE BEST REASON TO DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IS THAT ETHICS PAYS.

SO COMPANIES NOW HAVE A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE THEY'RE SEEING THAT THEY WILL ENJOY HIGHER STOCK PRICES. EMPLOYEES WANT TO WORK AT COMPANIES THAT ARE NOT RUN BY STAR CHAMBERS, THEY'RE GOING TO RETAIN THEIR EMPLOYEES LONGER AND THE MARKETPLACE WILL BUY PRODUCTS FROM A COMPANY THAT ENJOYS SUCH A REPUTATION. SO FROM MY STANDPOINT, ANYTHING THAT GETS PEOPLE TO ACT MORE ETHICALLY IS A GOOD THING.

TODAY WE HAVE TWO CLASSES OF PEOPLE. THOSE WHO DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND THOSE WHO NEED A FINANCIAL INCENTIVE. THEN THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE THERE'S A HIGHER LIKELIHOOD THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET CAUGHT IF THEY DON'T.

VAL>> SO WHEN YOUR COMPANY IS CALLED IN TO WORK WITH A CORPORATION, WHAT KIND OF THINGS DO YOU TEACH? SOME PEOPLE SAY YOU CAN'T TEACH INTEGRITY, BUT APPARENTLY THAT'S NOT TRUE.

DOV SEIDMAN>> I DON'T THINK YOU CAN GIVE PEOPLE THE RIGHT ANSWER, BUT THINK OF THE OUTFIELDER IN BASEBALL THAT CATCHES A POP FLY. EVERY BALL AN OUTFIELDER CATCHES IS DIFFERENT FROM ANY BALL HE'S EVER CAUGHT BEFORE. DIFFERENT SPEED, LIGHTING CONDITIONS, VELOCITY OFF A DIFFERENT BATTER. BUT WHAT MAKES THAT ATHLETE GREAT IS ALL THE PRACTICE.

SO WHAT YOU CAN DO BY ANALOGY IS CREATE ETHICAL ATHLETES IN A COMPANY, PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, WHO ARE GOING TO THINK TWICE, HIT THEIR PAUSE BUTTON, ASK HOW WOULD I FEEL IF THIS WERE DONE TO ME? SHOULD I TELL THAT THIS IS HAPPENING BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE HURT IF I DON'T?

AND IF YOU EMPOWER EMPLOYEES TO JUST THINK MORE ETHICALLY, YOU'RE GOING TO INCREASE THE CHANCE THAT MORE PEOPLE WILL DO THE RIGHT THING AND YOU'RE GOING TO TRANSFORM THE CULTURE INTO A PLACE THAT REWARDS THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR. SO I THINK A GOAL OF CORPORATE AMERICA IS TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE BECOMES A GREAT ETHICAL ATHLETE.

JESS>> WE HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT.

VAL>> LET'S HOPE WE GET THERE. DOV SEIDMAN FROM LRN, LEGAL KNOWLEDGE COMPANY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE. APPRECIATE IT.

DOV SEIDMAN>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

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JESS>> NOW PATT MORRISON HAS A FEW WELL-CHOSEN WORDS ABOUT A TOPIC THAT'S GENERATED MOUNTAINS OF HEADLINES, THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. HERE'S TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT MORRISON>> THE WORLD IS FALLING TO PIECES, BUT IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT POLITICIANS ARE GOING TO SAVE THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. IF YOU'VE BEEN OFF IN A SENSORY DEPRIVATION TANK -- AND IF YOU HAVE BEEN, I WISH I'D BEEN NEXT TO YOU -- YOU WOULDN'T HAVE HEARD THE BIG NEWS. A FEDERAL THREE-JUDGE PANEL OF THE NINTH CIRCUIT COURT RULED TWO TO ONE THAT TWO WORDS IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND SHOULD BE STRICKEN: "UNDER GOD".

WHAT WAS REALLY STRICKEN HERE WAS THE BODY POLITIC. THOSE TWO WORDS WERE NOT WRITTEN BY THE FOUNDING FATHERS. THEY WERE INSERTED INTO THE PLEDGE BY CONGRESS IN 1954 AT THE HEIGHT OF THE COLD WAR TO SHOW THOSE GODLESS COMMIES THAT THE BIG GUY WAS IN AMERICA'S CORNER. IT WAS A CONGRESSIONAL DECISION THAT FEDERAL COURTS ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY OBLIGATED TO RULE ON. YOU SAY WE'RE INCONSISTENT THAT IT SAYS "IN GOD WE TRUST" ON THE MONEY? LET ME QUOTE WALT WHITMAN ON AMERICA: "DO I CONTRADICT MYSELF? VERY WELL, THEN. I CONTRADICT MYSELF. I AM LARGE. I CONTAIN MULTITUDES."

WHATEVER YOU THINK OF THE RULING, ITS MOST APPALLING CONSEQUENCE WAS THE REACTION. AT THAT MOMENT, THE NATION WAS HUNKERED DOWN IN ANTICIPATION OF A TERRORIST ATTACK ON JULY FOURTH. BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WERE VANISHING FROM THE ECONOMY THROUGH SHADY CORPORATE ACCOUNTING. WILDFIRES WERE BURNING UP THE WEST. YET ALL THAT HAD TO WAIT WHILE LEGISLATORS SCRAMBLED TO BE THE FIRST TO CONDEMN THE RULING. IN WASHINGTON AND SACRAMENTO, THEY STOOD AND CHANTED THE PLEDGE EN MASSE, THEN DROPPED EVERYTHING ELSE TO PASS BILLS RESTORING "UNDER GOD".

THIS TIME OF YEAR, WE USUALLY GET THE DUMB-DOWN DRUMBEAT FOR THE FLAG-BURNING AMENDMENT. THIS YEAR, WE'LL GET THE PLEDGE INSTEAD. THE RULING IS, IF YOU WILL, A GODSEND TO POLITICIANS DENOUNCING IT DOESN'T SAVE ONE AMERICAN LIFE OR PROTECT ONE AMERICAN POCKET. IT DOESN'T PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE, PRESCRIPTION MEDICINE IN THE CABINET OR ALTERNATIVE FUEL IN THE TANK, BUT PERHAPS YOU CAN BRUSH ANYTHING UNDER THE CARPET SO LONG AS YOU STICK UP FOR "UNDER GOD".

VAL>> THE PAST TWO DECADES HAVE BEEN AN AMAZING TIME FOR CHANGE FOR AMERICA'S GAYS AND LESBIANS FROM THE AIDS CRISIS TO SHIFTING SOCIAL ATTITUDES ABOUT THE GAY LIFESTYLE, AND FILMS HAVE CAPTURED IT ALL WITH COMPELLING STORIES AND MOVIES SUCH AS "PHILADELPHIA", THE OSCAR-WINNING MOVIE STARRING TOM HANKS AND DENZEL WASHINGTON.

JESS>> BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE GOOD FILMS YOU MAY NOT HAVE HEARD ABOUT, MOVIES MADE BY AND LARGELY FOR GAYS AND LESBIANS. LATER THIS WEEK, SOME OF THE FINER EXAMPLES WILL PLAY DURING "OUTFEST 2002". IT'S AN INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL. THIS YEAR THE FOCUS IS ON THE HISTORY OF GAY CINEMA. HERE'S A SAMPLE.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> JOINING US NOW IS STEPHEN GUTWILLIG. HE IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF "OUTFEST 2002". THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE AGAIN.

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> GREAT TO BE BACK.

JESS>> IT'S AMAZING TO MANY OF US TO RECALL THE "OUTFEST", THIS IS THE TWENTIETH YEAR FOR IT.

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> THIS IS THE BIG NUMBER TWENTY.

JESS>> HOW HAVE THINGS CHANGED IN TWENTY YEARS?

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> THAT HAS BEEN A REMARKABLE THING WITHIN THE GAY AND LESBIAN COMMUNITY, BUT PARTICULARLY WITHIN GAY AND LESBIAN MEDIA VISIBILITY. TWENTY YEARS AGO, WHEN THIS FESTIVAL WAS FOUNDED BY UCLA GRADUATE STUDENTS, THERE WAS WHAT YOU'D CALL A DE FACTO MAINSTREAM MEDIA BLACKOUT ON THE VERY EXISTENCE OF GAYS AND LESBIANS AND THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT TRUE TODAY. WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, BUT THE CLIMATE IN WHICH "OUTFEST 2002" OPENS ON THURSDAY NIGHT AT THE ORPHEUM THEATER IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ONE THAN IT WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO.

VAL>> IN FACT, THE CLIP THAT WE SAW FROM THE MOVIE, "MAKING LOVE", YOU WERE SAYING THE FIRST STUDIO FILM ABOUT GAY --

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> -- THAT'S RIGHT. "MAKING LOVE" WAS A LANDMARK MOMENT IN 1982 TWENTY YEARS AGO AND THAT IS A MOMENT THAT WE'RE GOING TO RELIVE DURING THE FESTIVAL THIS YEAR. WE'RE SHOWING "MAKING LOVE" WITH ITS ORIGINAL SCREENWRITER, BARRY SANDLER, WHO MADE A VERY COURAGEOUS STEP TWENTY YEARS AGO COMING OUT OF THE CLOSET AS AN A-LIST HOLLYWOOD SCREENWRITER.

"MAKING LOVE" WAS A FILM THAT HAD UP AND COMING STARS IN IT. IT HAD KATE JACKSON, HARRY HAMLIN AND MICHAEL ONTKEAN AND IT'S A WONDERFUL FILM. IT STANDS OUT VERY, VERY WELL TODAY, BUT IT WAS A VERY, VERY UNUSUAL EXPERIENCE FOR A STUDIO TO COME OUT WITH A GAY-THEMED PROJECT OF ANY KIND. TODAY THAT IS LESS UNUSUAL, BUT STILL A FAIRLY RARE OCCURRENCE.

JESS>> IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, WE TALKED ABOUT FILMS BEING MADE NOW BY AND FOR GAYS AND LESBIANS. DOES THAT LIMIT YOUR AUDIENCE?

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> NOT SO MUCH. I MEAN, THIS IS A VERY MAINSTREAM FESTIVAL. "OUTFEST" IS BOTH THE OLDEST AND THE LARGEST FILM FESTIVAL OF ANY KIND IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. WE ARE, THIS YEAR, SHOWING 241 FILMS FROM A RECORD THIRTY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. IT'S THE MOST INTERNATIONAL "OUTFEST" THAT WE'VE EVER HAD AND THAT INCLUDES FILMS FROM NICARAGUA, IRAN, MYANMAR, SENEGAL, JAPAN --

JESS>> -- NOT PLACES WHERE GAYS AND LESBIANS ARE VERY LIBERATED.

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SEE AT A GAY AND LESBIAN FILM FESTIVAL THESE DAYS. BOTH AN EXPRESSION OF HOW FAR THE EXPERIENCE FOR GAYS AND LESBIANS IN NORTH AMERICA HAS COME TO THE POINT THAT WE HAVE "WILL AND GRACE" AND A MILLION OTHER SHOWS AND CHARACTERS ON TELEVISION REFLECTING OUR EXPERIENCE. BUT WE'RE ALSO STARTING TO SEE THE LIGHT BEING SHOWN IN CULTURES WHERE STATE-SPONSORED VIRULENT HOMOPHOBIA IS REALLY THE NORM. ARTISTS GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TAKING ENORMOUS RISKS TO TELL THEIR STORIES.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT ANOTHER MOVIE THAT WILL BE PART OF THE FESTIVAL. THIS IS FROM "PARTING GLANCES", A 1985 FILM. LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> YOU WERE SAYING THE ACTOR THERE ON THE LEFT IS --

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> -- THAT'S STEVE BUSHEMI. THIS IS THE FILM THAT PUT STEVE BUSHEMI ON THE MAP AND MADE HIM A STAR. HE IS A HUGE INDEPENDENT FILM ACTOR THESE DAYS. THIS IS THE ROLE THAT HE CONSIDERS AMONG HIS FAVORITES IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER. THIS IS THE FILM THAT I SAW IN COLLEGE IN THE MID-80'S THAT MADE A HUGE IMPACT ON ME. WE'RE SO THRILLED TO BE SHOWING "PARTING GLANCES" DURING "OUTFEST 2002". STEVE BUSHEMI WILL BE WITH US, AS WILL KATHY KINNEY FROM "THE DREW CAREY SHOW" WHO IS ALSO PART OF THAT CAST. WE'RE PUTTING TOGETHER A CAST REUNION OF "PARTING GLANCES" AND SHARING THAT WITH AUDIENCES AS PART OF OUR RETROSPECTIVE OF TWENTY YEARS.

WE'RE ALSO SHOWING ANOTHER LANDMARK FILM THAT INCLUDED A STORY LINE ABOUT AIDS. "AN EARLY FROST" IS THE FILM THAT WAS THE VERY FIRST MADE-FOR-TELEVISION MOVIE ABOUT AIDS. YOU MAY REMEMBER IT. IT STARRED AIDEN QUINN AND GINA ROWLANDS AND BEN GAZARRA. GINA ROWLANDS, WHO IS AN ENORMOUS PERSONAL FAVORITE OF MINE AND MANY MEN AND WOMEN IN THE COMMUNITY, WILL ALSO BE JOINING US FOR OUR RETROSPECTIVE SCREENING OF "AN EARLY FROST".

JESS>> BUT NOW EVEN AFTER TWENTY YEARS, YOU STILL HAVE TO CONFRONT THE ARGUMENT FROM THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY ARE YOU SIMPLY EXPLAINING THE GAY LIFE OR ARE YOU ENCOURAGING THE GAY LIFESTYLE?

STEPHEN GUTWILLIG>> "OUTFEST" IS SO MANY THINGS TO SO MANY PEOPLE. IT IS CERTAINLY A FAMILY GATHERING FOR 40,000 PEOPLE WITHIN LOS ANGELES, MOST OF WHOM COME FROM THE GAY, LESBIAN, BISEXUAL AND TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY, BUT IT'S ALSO A LAUNCHING PAD FOR INDEPENDENT FILMS AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, A PLACE FOR FILMMAKERS TO LAUNCH THEIR FILMS WITHIN HOLLYWOOD AND TO MOVE THEIR CAREERS FORWARD. IT IS MANY, MANY THINGS AND IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND CELEBRATE. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE GAYS THROW THE BEST PARTIES (LAUGHTER) AND THAT'S WHAT "OUTFEST" IS. WE THROW ONE ENORMOUS PARTY STARTING THURSDAY NIGHT AT THE ORPHEUM THEATER FOR 2,000.

VAL>> AND THAT'S SAYING A LOT FOR HOLLYWOOD, I'LL TELL YOU. (LAUGHTER) STEPHEN GUTWILLIG --

JESS>> -- THANK YOU FOR JOINING OUR PARTY.

VAL>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> "OUTFEST 2002" RUNS FROM JULY 11 THROUGH JULY 22. FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK THEIR WEBSITE AT WWW.OUTFEST.ORG OR, FOR TICKETS, CALL (213) 480-7065.

VAL>> AND YOU CAN CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG. THERE YOU WILL FIND TRANSCRIPTS AND AUDIO-STREAMING OF OUR RECENT PROGRAMS IN CASE YOU'VE MISSED ANY OF THEM. THANKS SO MUCH.

JESS>> IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK WITH US FROM THE MIDDLE EAST.

VAL>> AND NICE TO BE HERE AND NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

JESS>> NOW FOR EVERYONE HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, GOOD NIGHT AND HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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