7/22/02

LC020722

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> WATER IS SCARCE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, BUT WHAT IF WE COULD REPLENISH THE SUPPLY BY GETTING FRESH WATER FROM THE SEA?

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU KNOW, MARK TWAIN SAID, "WHISKEY'S FOR DRINKING AND WATER'S FOR FIGHTING" AND THAT'S A REALIZATION THAT, INLAND, WATER IS A SCARCE RESOURCE AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THAT FRESH WATER TO SUPPLY EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

VAL>> A GRAND JURY HAS INDICTED TWO POLICEMEN SHOWN IN THE VIDEOTAPE BEATING OF AN INGLEWOOD TEENAGER. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEACE OFFICERS WIND UP ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LAW? JUDGE KEVIN ROSS IS HERE WITH SOME ANSWERS.

JESS>> AND HOW OFTEN HAVE YOU HEARD SOMEONE SAY, "I HATE DOCTORS." BUT DID YOU EVER THINK ABOUT THAT FROM THE DOCTOR'S SIDE? WE'LL TALK WITH ONE PHYSICIAN WHO'S WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED "WHY YOUR DOCTOR HATES YOU" AND HE'S ONLY PARTLY KIDDING.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

IT'S NO SECRET THAT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA IS THIRSTY FOR WATER AND, OVER THE YEARS, SOME SAY WE HAVEN'T CARED EXACTLY HOW WE GOT IT. DEMAND FOR WATER GROWS ALONG WITH THE REGION'S BOOMING POPULATION, BUT THE QUESTION BECOMES WHERE WILL WE TURN WHEN THE CURRENT SOURCES OF WATER RUN DRY?

VAL>> THE ANSWER MAY LIE JUST OFFSHORE. SOME CALIFORNIA SCIENTISTS SAY RECENT ADVANCES MAKE THE PACIFIC OCEAN A FEASIBLE SOURCE OF DRINKING WATER. RIGHT NOW, THEY'RE WORKING ON AN ECONOMICAL PROCESS TO TURN SALT WATER INTO FRESH WATER AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THEY'RE ENCOURAGED BY THE EARLY RESULTS.

GAY YEE>> TWO-THIRDS OF THE FRESH WATER FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COMES FROM SOMEPLACE ELSE, FROM SOURCES HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY, IMPORTED IN A RIBBON OF AQUEDUCTS. WATER SNAKES ITS WAY FROM NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, THE EASTERN SIERRA AND THE COLORADO RIVER. IT'S FUELED A BOOM OF GROWTH AND PROSPERITY, BUT IT'S ALSO GIVEN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AN IMAGE AS A THIRSTY GIANT THAT'S MORE THAN WILLING TO TAKE WHATEVER IT NEEDS.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU KNOW, MARK TWAIN SAID, "WHISKEY'S FOR DRINKING AND WATER'S FOR FIGHTING" AND THAT'S A REALIZATION THAT, INLAND, WATER IS A SCARCE RESOURCE AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THAT FRESH WATER TO SUPPLY EVERYBODY'S NEEDS.

GAY YEE>> SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA HAS AN ALMOST LIMITLESS SUPPLY OF WATER RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES: THE PACIFIC OCEAN. BUT THERE'S JUST ONE PROBLEM. IT'S TOO SALTY TO DRINK OR USE FOR IRRIGATION AND TAKING OUT THE SALT HAS BEEN TOO COSTLY TO BE PRACTICAL. IT'S FRUSTRATED SOUTHERN CALIFORNIANS FOR DECADES.

THE IDEA OF TURNING OCEAN WATER INTO DRINKING WATER IS NOTHING NEW. SANTA BARBARA DID IT A DECADE AGO, BUT IT PROVED TO BE SO EXPENSIVE THAT THEY DROPPED THE PLAN. BUT A LOT HAS CHANGED OVER TEN YEARS AND IT'S BEGINNING TO MAKE SENSE AND IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT KIND IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA: DOLLAR SENSE.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> YOU LOOK AT THE OCEAN AND NO MORE FIGHTING BECAUSE THAT OCEAN IS LIMITLESS.

GAY YEE>> PAUL SHOENBERGER IS CHIEF OF ENGINEERING AND OPERATIONS FOR THE WEST BASIN WATER DISTRICT WHERE THEY'VE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY DESALINATING WATER IN EL SEGUNDO FOR YEARS. THIS IS WHAT THE DISTRICT STARTS WITH. TREATED SEWAGE, DIRTIER THAN ANYTHING FOUND IN THE OCEAN. THEY TURN IT INTO RECYCLED WATER FOR INDUSTRIAL USE AND THE PROCESS TAKES OUT THE SALT.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> WHAT WE'RE STANDING IN FRONT OF HERE IS A FULL-SCALE MICROFILTRATION UNIT.

GAY YEE>> THE DISTRICT BEGINS WITH A PRETREATMENT CALLED MICROFILTRATION. THE WATER IS SENT THROUGH CANISTERS FILLED WITH THOUSANDS OF TINY STRAW-LIKE FILTERS.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AND THE WATER IS PUSHED THROUGH HERE, THROUGH VERY LOW PRESSURE, AND REALLY ANYTHING THAT'S LARGER THAN .1 MICRON IS REJECTED. THIS DOES NOT REDUCE ANY OF THE SALINITY, BUT IT TAKES OUT MOST OF THE IMPURITIES EXCEPT FOR THE SALINITY IN THE WATER.

GAY YEE>> TAKING OUT THE SALT REQUIRES A SECOND STEP CALLED REVERSE OSMOSIS. THE WATER IS PUSHED UNDER HIGH PRESSURE THROUGH COILED MEMBRANES INSIDE THESE PIPES.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AND REALLY WHAT THE PROCESS DOES IS TAKE WATER UNDER HIGH PRESSURE AND PUSHES IT RIGHT THROUGH THIS MEMBRANE. IT PUSHES IT THROUGH THE SPACES IN BETWEEN THE MOLECULES OF THE MEMBRANE AND REALLY WATER GOES THROUGH. H2O WILL GO THROUGH AND 99.9 PERCENT OF ALL THE DISSOLVED SOLIDS, MINERALS, SALTS WILL BE LEFT BEHIND.

GAY YEE>> ADVANCES HAVE LOWERED THE COST OF THESE MEMBRANES AND THE COST OF RUNNING THE MACHINES, WHICH IS WHY SHOENBERGER THINKS IT'S TIME TO GIVE DESALINIZATION ANOTHER CHANCE.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S EXTREMELY CLEAR WATER. IT HAS EXTREMELY LOW SALINITY, HARDLY ANY SALT IN THIS WHATSOEVER.

GAY YEE>> SHOENBERGER SAYS THE EXACT SAME TECHNOLOGY CAN BE USED TO TURN SEAWATER INTO DRINKING WATER AND, AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT'S ALREADY BEING DONE, NESTLED IN THE SHADOW OF THIS TOWERING POWER PLANT AT THE BEACH IN EL SEGUNDO WHERE THE DISTRICT HAS JUST LAUNCHED A DEMONSTRATION PROJECT. THEY TAKE SEAWATER FROM THE POWER PLANT'S COOLING SYSTEM AND RUN IT THROUGH A SMALLER VERSION OF THE MICROFILTRATION REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM WE SAW AT THE WEST BASIN RECYCLING PLANT.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> THIS WATER HERE HAS LESS SALT IN IT THAN MOST IMPORTED WATER. COLORADO RIVER WATER, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS AROUND 600 TO 700 PARTS PER MILLION OF SALINITY. THIS WATER HERE HAS 350 PARTS.

GAY YEE>> SHOENBERGER SAYS THIS PROVES FRESH WATER CAN BE PRODUCED FROM THE OCEAN.

PAUL SHOENBERGER>> WE HAD THE SAME TECHNOLOGY YEARS AGO. FOR EXAMPLE, TEN YEARS AGO WE COULD DO THIS WITH THE REVERSE OSMOSIS PROCESS, BUT IT COST EIGHT TO TEN TIMES MORE THAN IMPORTED WATER. NOW WE CAN PRODUCE AND SELL THE WATER FOR ONLY 25 PERCENT MORE THAN IMPORTED WATER, SO WE'RE IN THE REALM OF FEASIBILITY.

GAY YEE>> AND THIS WOULD BE A WATER SUPPLY FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA THAT'S ONE HUNDRED PERCENT RELIABLE, UNLIKE THE IMPORTED WATER THAT'S AFFECTED BY THE WINTER SNOW PACK AND DROUGHT. THE OCEAN IS ONE WATER SOURCE WE CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON. IN EL SEGUNDO, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> WITH US NOW IS MICHAEL DEALESSI. HE IS DIRECTOR OF NATURAL RESOURCE POLICY AT THE REASON FOUNDATION PUBLIC POLICY INSTITUTE. YOU'RE NOT MUCH IMPRESSED WITH THE NOTION OF DESALTING SEA WATER?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, NOT IMPRESSED IS PROBABLY NOT THE BEST WAY TO PUT IT, BUT I THINK IT'S A FANTASTIC TECHNOLOGY THAT MAY PROVE VERY VALUABLE IN THE FUTURE. BUT FOR THE MOMENT, I THINK THE ECONOMICS OF IT DICTATE THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE WATER --

JESS>> -- WELL, REASON ARGUES THAT THERE'S PLENTY OF WATER ALREADY.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> I DO THINK THERE'S PLENTY OF WATER IN CALIFORNIA. WHAT WE'RE LACKING IS SANITY IN HOW IT'S DISTRIBUTED AND HOW IT'S USED.

VAL>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT. SO IN TERMS OF THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF WATER THAT FALLS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ALL OUR NEEDS COULD BE MET IF WE KNEW HOW TO MANAGE IT BETTER?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> SURE. AGRICULTURE USES ALMOST NINETY PERCENT OF CALIFORNIA'S WATER, SO FROM A POPULATION STANDPOINT, THERE IS PLENTY, PLENTY OF WATER. AND AGRICULTURE -- BECAUSE OF THE WAY WATER IS PRICED, AGRICULTURE DOESN'T ALWAYS USE THAT WATER VERY EFFICIENTLY.

VAL>> BECAUSE THEY GET IT REALLY CHEAP, YOU'RE SAYING?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> YES, EXACTLY.

VAL>> SO WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? WHAT SHOULD THE POLICY BE?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, IF WE COULD REMOVE SOME OF THE BARRIERS THAT EXIST NOW, BOTH LEGAL AND POLITICAL, TO TRANSFERRING WATER AROUND THE STATE, WE COULD SOLVE A LOT OF THESE MANAGEMENT PROBLEMS.

JESS>> YOU'D SEE THE BUYING AND SELLING OF WATER? PRIVATE PROPERTY OWNING THE WATER?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> I THINK -- WELL, PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT WHO OWNS THE WATER IS VERY UNCLEAR, SO A LOT OF TIMES FARMERS -- I MEAN, WE GROW MONSOON CROPS IN A NEAR DESERT ENVIRONMENT WHICH IS CRAZY, BUT THE REASON WE DO THAT IS BECAUSE THE FOLKS USING THAT WATER DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT ENOUGH IN THEIR RIGHTS TO THE WATER TO SELL IT, SO THEY USE IT INSTEAD OF SELLING IT OR TRANSFERRING IT.

JESS>> BUT YOU CAN'T DISCOUNT AGRICULTURE'S USE OR AGRICULTURE'S VALUE TO THE CALIFORNIA ECONOMY.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> NO, NO, ABSOLUTELY. AGRICULTURE IS INCREDIBLY VALUABLE AND I THINK WE COULD DO A LOT OF THIS WITHOUT REDUCING AGRICULTURE AT ALL. IF AGRICULTURE WAS FREE TO SELL WATER, THEN THAT PRICE THAT THEY GET THEY COULD INVEST IN BETTER TECHNOLOGIES, DRIP IRRIGATION, ALL SORTS OF OTHER THINGS, TO GROW MAYBE EVEN MORE WITH LESS WATER.

VAL>> OH, I SEE. SO IF I WERE A FARMER, THE INCENTIVE WOULD BE TO USE AS LITTLE AS I CAN BECAUSE I CAN TAKE THE LEFTOVER AND MAKE MONEY OFF OF IT.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> RIGHT. JUST LIKE IN CITIES WHEN THEY RAISE THE PRICE OF WATER, YOU START THINKING ABOUT TAKING SHORTER SHOWERS AND WATERING YOUR LAWN LESS. IN THE SAME WAY, IF YOU WERE ABLE TO SELL THE EXCESS WATER YOU HAVE, YOU START THINKING ABOUT USING LESS WATER.

JESS>> SO THIS GOES BACK TO THE NOTION THAT, IF WE SIMPLY LEARN TO CONSERVE, WE'D HAVE NO PROBLEMS?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> BROADLY DEFINED TO CONSERVE? YES, I THINK SO.

VAL>> HAVE WE CONSERVED ABOUT ALL WE CAN OR IS THERE STILL MORE ROOM FOR CONSERVATION? BECAUSE I'VE HEARD THAT CALIFORNIANS ARE ONE OF THE BEST CONSERVING GROUPS IN TERMS OF WATER IN THE NATION.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> I THINK THAT'S TRUE, PARTICULARLY IN URBAN USES, AND THAT'S PARTLY BECAUSE WATER IS QUITE EXPENSIVE FOR URBAN USE. WE HAVEN'T SEEN WATER PRICES CHANGE FOR AGRICULTURAL USE AND I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO SEE A CHANGE IN, SAY, THE DELIVERY CHARGE OF WATER TO FARMERS. WHAT WE NEED TO SEE A CHANGE IN IS THEIR ABILITY TO DO SOMETHING WITH THAT WATER OTHER THAN GROW CROPS.

JESS>> REASON DOESN'T GENERALLY LIKE REGULATIONS, SO WE'RE NOT GOING TO REGULATE FARMERS GROWING ALFALFA BECAUSE IT'S SUCH A WATER-INTENSIVE CROP THAT NO ONE'S ALLOWED TO GROW ALFALFA.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, IF THEY'RE REALLY BEARING THE COSTS OF USING OR NOT USING THE WATER, THEN WE DON'T NEED TO TELL THEM WHAT TO GROW. BECAUSE IF IT'S CRAZY TO GROW SOMETHING, THEY WON'T GROW IT.

JESS>> THE MARKET WILL REGULATE IT.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> SURE.

VAL>> AND JUST REAL BRIEFLY, DO YOU GENERALLY AGREE WITH THE TREND GLOBALLY AND EVEN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF WATER MOVING TOWARD THE PRIVATE SECTOR BEING OWNED AND CONTROLLED BY PRIVATE COMPANIES, NOT PUBLIC MUNICIPALITIES?

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, I'M A FIRM BELIEVER THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS A LOT MORE LIKELY TO TAKE SOME OF THESE THINGS INTO ACCOUNT THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, SUCH AS THE PRICE OF WATER WHETHER WE USE IT OR SELL IT VERSUS A REGULATORY REGIME WHERE EVERYONE IS FIGHTING OVER WATER. THAT'S WHEN WE START FIGHTING OVER THINGS, WHEN NO ONE KNOWS WHO OWNS IT.

JESS>> WE'LL HOPE THAT ENRON DOESN'T GET IN THE WATER BUSINESS (LAUGHTER)

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER TRICKY ISSUE, YES (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER STORY, RIGHT (LAUGHTER) WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHAEL DEALESSI FROM THE NATURAL RESOURCE POLICY AND REASON PUBLIC POLICY INSTITUTE. THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

MICHAEL DEALESSI>> WELL, THANK YOU.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, A SUPERSTAR HAS JOINED THE FIGHT AGAINST SECESSION. WHO WOULD HAVE IMAGINED MAGIC JOHNSON TEAMING UP WITH MAYOR JAMES HAHN, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE MAYOR REFUSED TO APPOINT MAGIC'S OLD FRIEND, CHIEF BERNARD PARKS? WELL, THEY PUT ASIDE THEIR DIFFERENCES AND THEY'RE TEAMING UP TO HOLD L.A. TOGETHER. DOES THAT SPELL TROUBLE FOR SECESSION? THE STORY TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> TWO INGLEWOOD POLICE OFFICERS ARE DUE IN COURT NEXT MONTH. THEY'LL FACE A HEARING ON CHARGES CONNECTED WITH THE BEATING OF A SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD BOY. THE INCIDENT WAS CAUGHT ON TAPE. THE OFFICER SEEN PUNCHING THE BOY IS CHARGED WITH ASSAULT UNDER COLOR OF AUTHORITY, THE OTHER WITH FILING A FALSE REPORT. BOTH MEN APPEARED IN COURT LAST THURSDAY AND ENTERED PLEAS OF NOT GUILTY TO THE FELONY CHARGES.

VAL>> DOES IT CREATE SPECIAL PROBLEMS FOR THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM WHEN POLICE OFFICERS BECOME DEFENDANTS? JOINING US NOW ARE SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE, KEVIN ROSS, AND ALSO WITH US IS BILL SEKI. HE IS A FORMER PROSECUTOR, NOW A DEFENSE ATTORNEY WHO HAS REPRESENTED SEVERAL POLICE OFFICERS. WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO LIFE AND TIMES.

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

BILL SEKI>> THANKS.

JESS>> AND AS A FORMER PROSECUTOR REPRESENTING POLICE OFFICERS, NOW YOU REALLY ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE.

BILL SEKI>> ABSOLUTELY. IT'S A BIG SWING, BUT I'VE BEEN IN THAT POSITION, PRESENTED WITH CASES WHERE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH BEATING PEOPLE, LYING ON THE STAND, THINGS LIKE THAT, AND NOW I'M ON THE OTHER SIDE DEFENDING THEM. IT'S INTERESTING TO HEAR FROM THEM WHAT THEIR STORY IS BECAUSE THAT'S A SIDE YOU NEVER GET AS A PROSECUTOR. YOU NEVER GET TO TALK TO THE DEFENDANT UNTIL YOU'RE IN TRIAL.

VAL>> JUDGE ROSS, YOU KNOW WHAT'S SO CONFUSING ABOUT THIS INGLEWOOD CASE IS WE HAVE LAYERS UPON LAYERS OF ALL THESE INVESTIGATIONS, CRIMINAL, CIVIL, STATE, FEDERAL, THE D.A., THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THEN THERE'S EVEN, YOU KNOW, THE INVESTIGATION THAT THE ACTUAL POLICE DEPARTMENT LOOKS INTO. HOW DO YOU MAKE SENSE OF THIS? WHAT TAKES PRECEDENCE AND WHO'S TAKING THE LEAD?

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> WELL, ULTIMATELY, WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO IS THAT YOU HAVE STATE VIOLATIONS POTENTIALLY.

VAL>> CRIMINAL OR CIVIL?

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> WELL, BOTH. YOU HAVE POTENTIALLY A CIVIL VIOLATION WHERE THE FAMILY IS SUING THE OFFICER AND OFFICERS AS WELL AS THE CITY. YOU HAVE THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT INVOLVED, SO THEY COULD POTENTIALLY BE SUING THE COUNTY AND THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT. THEN YOU HAVE THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION WHICH COULD LEAD TO STATE CRIMINAL CHARGES BEING IMPOSED.

VAL>> THAT'S WHAT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IS --

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> -- EXACTLY. THEN YOU ALSO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE, IF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DECIDES TO GET INVOLVED FOR CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, THESE ARE ALSO CRIMINAL VIOLATIONS POTENTIALLY. THEN YOU ALSO --

JESS>> -- WHEN YOU'VE GOT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL COMING OUT AND MAKING HIS STATEMENT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS ALREADY PRETTY MUCH INVOLVED, ARE THEY NOT?

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> WELL, IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN TO WHAT EXTENT, THOUGH, JESS. WHAT'S ALSO INTERESTING IS THEN YOU HAVE THE WHOLE INTERNAL VIOLATION FOR AN OFFICER FROM THE STANDPOINT OF HAVING TO ANSWER TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE CHIEF OF POLICE IN INGLEWOOD, CHIEF BANKS. SO YOU HAVE ALL THESE LAYERS.

WHAT'S INTERESTING, THOUGH, IS WHENEVER I HAVE JURORS COME INTO A COURTROOM AND I ASK THEM WHEN WE HAVE A CRIMINAL CASE, "IF ANY OF YOU HAD TO DECIDE RIGHT NOW THE PERSON THAT'S SEATED IN THAT DEFENDANT'S CHAIR IF THAT PERSON IS GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY, HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD SAY THIS PERSON IS GUILTY?" USUALLY, OUT OF JURORS OF ABOUT FORTY, WE MAY HAVE ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN RAISE THEIR HAND. I ASK THEM, "WELL, WHY ARE YOU ALREADY DECIDING THAT THIS PERSON IS GUILTY?" "WELL, WE MUST BE HERE FOR SOME REASON" OR "I JUST ASSUMED THAT BECAUSE A PERSON'S CHARGED, THEY'D BE GUILTY."

JESS>> OR "I HAVE SEEN THE VIDEOTAPE."

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> OR I'VE SEEN THE TAPE. THE THING THAT I LIKE TO STRESS IS THERE IS A PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE IN EVERY ASPECT OF THE DIFFERENT PROCEEDINGS WE JUST TALKED ABOUT. IT'S ONLY WHEN EVIDENCE IS PRESENTED AND THEN JURORS ARE ABLE TO MAKE A DETERMINATION BASED ON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED THAT WE CAN MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE ALLEGATIONS ARE ACTUALLY TRUE. AT THIS POINT, IT'S A LITTLE PREMATURE.

VAL>> MR. SEKI, WHAT'S ESPECIALLY TOUGH ABOUT DEFENDING POLICE OFFICERS?

BILL SEKI>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU BROUGHT UP IS THE DIFFERENT LAYERS THAT ARE COMING INTO PLAY. YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE D.A.'S OFFICE, YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND YOU'RE DEALING WITH THEIR DEPARTMENT. SO WHEN YOU'RE DEFENDING THEM, YOU HAVE TO ANTICIPATE, WELL, ARE WE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH BOTH THE STATE PROSECUTION AND THE FEDERAL PROSECUTION? AND HOW DO I ALSO LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF MAYBE HIM RETURNING TO HIS JOB?

FOR INSTANCE, WHAT IF THE ALLEGATIONS ARE FALSE AGAINST THE OFFICER? WELL, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU LAY THE GROUNDWORK IN STATE COURT, IN FEDERAL COURT AND ALSO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS ASPECT OF IT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE GETTING THE PROPER EVIDENCE OUT. YOU'RE LAYING THE FOUNDATION JUST IN CASE HE RETURNS TO HIS JOB.

JESS>> IN THE RODNEY KING CASE, JURORS GENERALLY WERE SOMEWHAT SYMPATHETIC TO THE POLICE OFFICERS. BUT AFTER RAMPART, ISN'T IT GOING TO BE MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND JURORS WHO BELIEVE THE POLICE ARE ALWAYS RIGHT?

BILL SEKI>> OH, ABSOLUTELY, AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY TOUGH TIME FOR ANY OFFICER TO BE CHARGED WITH A CRIME. OFFICERS, I THINK, NOW WHO ARE GOING TO BE CHARGED WITH CRIMES, MAYBE NOT LIKE THIS, ON DUTY, BUT THE DUI'S, MAYBE SOME SORT OF PERJURY TYPE THING OR A SPOUSAL BATTERY TYPE OF CASE, SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS OFF DUTY, THEY'RE GOING TO BE HESITANT ABOUT GOING TO TRIAL BECAUSE, IF IT EVER COMES OUT THAT THEY'RE POLICE OFFICERS, JURORS MAY NOT WANT TO VOTE IN THEIR FAVOR, AND HOLD IT AGAINST THEM. SO, ABSOLUTELY, VERY DIFFICULT.

VAL>> JUDGE ROSS, IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR ADVANTAGE TO BEING A POLICE OFFICER EITHER PROCEDURALLY OR JUST IN TERMS OF PUBLIC PERCEPTION?

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> YOU KNOW, THE REALITY IS THAT BACK IN THE DAYS THERE WAS ALWAYS THIS PRESUMPTION THAT, IF YOU ARE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE SOMEONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH. IN FACT, MANY TIMES DEFENSE ATTORNEYS, A GOOD DEFENSE ATTORNEY, WOULD ALWAYS INSTRUCT THE JUDGE LIKE MYSELF, COULD YOU ASK JURORS IF THEY HAVE A PRECONCEIVED NOTION ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT? OFTENTIMES, PEOPLE WOULD. THEY WOULD SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT? POLICE OFFICERS ARE THERE TO PROTECT US. I'VE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THEM. THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN THERE WHEN I NEEDED THEM, WHEN MY CAR WAS STOLEN, WHEN SOMEONE BROKE INTO MY HOME. IF THEY SAY THAT THIS PERSON DID IT, I'M PRETTY MUCH GOING TO ASSUME THAT THAT'S THE CASE.

JESS>> BUT WITH THE POLICE OFFICER AS A DEFENDANT, DON'T YOU REALLY HAVE A TOUGH TIME PROVING INTENT?

BILL SEKI>> YOU BRING UP A REALLY GOOD POINT. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE AS CIVILIANS IS WHAT'S ON TAPE OR WHAT'S PUT OUT IN FRONT OF US. WE HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THE TRAINING THAT THEY'VE GONE THROUGH. WE DON'T HAVE THE EXPERIENCE ON THE STREET THAT THEY HAVE. AND A LOT OF TIMES, THEY'RE ATTUNED TO CERTAIN THINGS THAT WE DON'T PERCEIVE. AS A DEFENSE ATTORNEY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO BRING ALL THOSE ASPECTS OUT. THE TYPE OF TRAINING THEY HAD, WHATEVER THE THREAT WAS, HAS THE THREAT SUBSIDED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY DON'T NEED TO USE FORCE? INTENT GOES HEAVILY INTO THAT --

VAL>> -- EXPLAIN THAT, WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT TO GET A CONVICTION OF A POLICE OFFICER. YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY PROVE THAT THE OFFICER INTENDED TO HARM?

BILL SEKI>> WELL, FOR INSTANCE, TO KIND OF BRIEFLY TOUCH ON A USE OF FORCE. IF THERE WAS SOME SORT OF THREAT THAT THE OFFICER PERCEIVED BEFORE THE VIDEOTAPE TURNED ON, WE DON'T GET THE ADVANTAGE OF SEEING EXACTLY WHAT THAT OFFICER SAW, HOW IT AFFECTED HIM. IF SOMEBODY IS EXTREMELY COMBATIVE, MAYBE THERE'S A CERTAIN POINT WHERE THE PERSON SEEMS TO HAVE RELAXED, BUT AS THE OFFICER IS HOLDING THEM, MAYBE THEY'RE TENSE. MAYBE THEY'RE MANIPULATING THEIR HANDS SOMEHOW OR DOING THINGS THAT WE CAN'T SEE. UNTIL THE OFFICER PERCEIVES THAT THAT THREAT HAS SUBSIDED TO A LEVEL WHERE HE DOESN'T NEED TO USE FORCE, HE STILL NEEDS TO BE ON GUARD AND THAT GOES TO HIS INTENT.

JESS>> JUDGE ROSS, ISN'T IT GOING TO BE HARD TO FIND IN THE INGLEWOOD CASE JURORS WHO HAVE NOT SEEN THAT TAPE AND THUS HAVE NOT MADE UP THEIR MINDS?

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> IT MAY BE AN ISSUE AS TO HAVING TO CHANGE THE VENUE BECAUSE THERE MAY BE A CLIMATE THERE THAT --

JESS>> -- WHERE WOULD YOU GO THAT YOU HAD NOT SEEN THAT TAPE? (LAUGHTER)

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> AND THE BIGGER ISSUE IS THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER DYNAMICS. WHEN AN OFFICER IS ALLEGED TO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES, YOU HAVE SITUATIONS WHERE WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE CASES WHERE THE OFFICER HAS ALREADY WRITTEN A REPORT AND THOSE CASES ARE EITHER UP FOR TRIAL OR MAYBE THERE'S BEEN A JURY AND THEY'RE COMING BACK ON APPEAL? CAN THOSE CASES BE REVERSED?

VAL>> AH, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN TAINTED.

JUDGE KEVIN ROSS>> RIGHT. WHEN YOU HAVE SEARCH WARRANTS AND ARREST WARRANTS, DOES A JUDGE NOW SAY, WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS ACTUALLY CREDIBLE. DO I DENY THAT? THERE'S A LOT OF OTHER FACTORS THAT GO INTO THIS.

JESS>> IT WON'T BE EASY.

VAL>> OH, IT'S NOT. VERY COMPLICATED. BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING US UNDERSTAND IT. JUDGE KEVIN ROSS, ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU. BILL SEKI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN.

BILL SEKI>> THANKS.

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VAL>> DO YOU HATE TO GO TO THE DOCTOR? AND WHEN YOU DO GO IN FOR AN OFFICE VISIT, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE RUSHED THROUGH AND THAT YOUR DOCTOR REALLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR WELL-BEING? WELL, PATIENTS AREN'T THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE FRUSTRATED BY MODERN HEALTHCARE.

JESS>> NOW A PRACTICING CARDIOLOGIST TELLS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY. IN HIS NOVEL, HE DETAILS HOW DOCTORS SOMETIMES FEEL ABOUT THEIR PATIENTS AND THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN GENERAL. THE MAIN CHARACTER IS "DR. BELEAGUERED", A PHYSICIAN WHO IS FALLING APART UNDER THE PRESSURES OF HIS MEDICAL PRACTICE. THE BOOK IS ENTITLED "WHY YOUR DOCTOR HATES YOU". WE'RE JOINED NOW BY AUTHOR AND CARDIOLOGIST, ALLAN LEW. DOES MY DOCTOR HATE ME?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> NO, YOUR DOCTOR DOESN'T HATE YOU. THAT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK. BUT A LOT OF PATIENTS THINK THEIR DOCTORS HATE THEM. WHAT MOTIVATED ME TO WRITE THE BOOK WAS A PATIENT WHO WOULDN'T RETURN TO HIS DOCTOR BECAUSE HE WAS OF THE OPINION THAT THE DOCTOR HAD GROWN TO HATE HIM. I WALKED OUT LAUGHING. I SAID TO MYSELF THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE HEARD. ONE DAY, I WILL ANSWER HIS QUESTION.

VAL>> AND YOU HAVE IN THE FORM OF A NOVEL. NOW WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE A NOVEL? IS IT BASICALLY ON FACT AND YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A DOCTOR?

JESS>> LIBEL? (LAUGHTER)

DR. ALLAN LEW>> (LAUGHTER) NO, I THOUGHT THE NOVEL WOULD BE FUN. I THOUGHT THE FORMAT WOULD BE EASY TO READ AND DIGEST AND, WELL, I NEED TO MAKE SOME MONEY.

JESS>> WELL, ARE YOU IN FACT "DR. BELEAGUERED"?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> NO. YES. MAYBE. MY WIFE THINKS SO (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> TELL US THE PREMISE OF THE BOOK. SET IT UP FOR US.

DR. ALLAN LEW>> WELL, "DR. BELEAGUERED" IS A PHYSICIAN DISINTEGRATING, DETERIORATING UNDER THE HARASSMENT AND PRESSURES OF HIS PRACTICE AND HE UNDERGOES A MOMENT OF MADNESS AND PULLS A GUN ON AN UNINSURED PATIENT WHO'S BEEN DECEIVING HIM, FIRES AND MISSES, BECOMES CATATONIC, ENTERS INTO PSYCHIATRIC THERAPY AND, THROUGH THE INTERACTION WITH THE SOMEWHAT INEPT PSYCHIATRIST, RECALLS THE EVENTS LEADING UP TO THE SHOOTING AND ALSO DISPLAYS AN INTERESTING ILLUSTRATION OF CRISIS. MID-LIFE CRISIS, PROFESSIONAL CRISIS --

VAL>> -- SO IN THE COURSE OF THERAPY, WE LEARN ALL ABOUT WHAT LED HIM UP TO THIS CRAZY MOMENT.

DR. ALLAN LEW>> YOU DO INDEED. DURING HIS DESCRIPTION OF EVENTS, WE SEE THE HUMOR AND SOME OF THE RIDICULOUS SITUATIONS HE FACES DAY TO DAY. DURING HIS THERAPY SESSIONS, WE SEE THE PATHOS AND THE STRAIN AND THE DEPRESSION, SO IT'S A SCHIZOPHRENIC PIECE OF WRITING.

JESS>> BUT YOU USE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO RAIL AGAINST THE SYSTEM A GOOD BIT TOO?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> I RAIL AGAINST THE SYSTEM. I POINT OUT SHORTCOMINGS AND INADEQUACIES AND MAYBE IF SOMEONE TAKES A LOOK AT IT, THEY'LL THINK ABOUT IT SERIOUSLY AND THINK ABOUT CHANGES.

VAL>> SO WHAT IS SO HORRIBLE ABOUT BEING A DOCTOR TODAY?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> OH, I DON'T THINK IT'S HORRIBLE. I THINK IT'S STRESSFUL. THERE IS INCREASING PRESSURE, INCREASING REGULATION, INCREASING LITIGATION, DECREASING REIMBURSEMENT, ALL ADDING UP TO MAKE PHYSICIANS MOSTLY FRUSTRATED, AND A GENERAL DECLINE IN MORALE WHICH THE PATIENTS EXPERIENCE.

VAL>> IN FACT, YOU'VE CALLED SOME DOCTORS "BOTTOM DOGS".

DR. ALLAN LEW>> BOTTOM DOG, YES, BECAUSE JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY ORGANIZED IN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY ENJOYING COMMERCE AND INCOME. DOCTORS ARE PROBABLY RECEIVING THE LEAST AND THE MOST RAPIDLY DECLINING REWARD FOR THEIR EFFORTS.

JESS>> AND MALPRACTICE INSURANCE IS A BIG FACTOR IN THAT TOO, IS IT NOT?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> MALPRACTICE INSURANCE IS A BIG FACTOR. THANKFULLY IN CALIFORNIA, WE HAVE SOME LIMITS ON THAT, BUT YOU CAN SEE THE EFFECTS IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, SUCH AS NEVADA CURRENTLY UNDERGOING A HEALTHCARE CRISIS.

VAL>> NOW DO YOU FIND THAT IT'S SOMETIMES HARD TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO BE SYMPATHETIC WITH DOCTORS? BECAUSE, OKAY, SO THEIR SALARIES ARE DECLINING FROM HALF A MILLION TO $400,000 -- SORRY ABOUT THAT -- OR DO PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT DOCTORS ARE UNDER A LOT OF STRESS?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> WELL, THEY UNDERSTAND ONCE THEY'VE HAD A CHANCE TO DISCUSS IT AND LEARN A LITTLE, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT. THE GENERAL PERCEPTION IS THAT PHYSICIANS MAKE ENOUGH MONEY AND --

VAL>> -- AND STILL DOING WELL DESPITE ALL THESE PROBLEMS WITH THE SYSTEM?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> RIGHT, AND THEY ARE, THEY ARE. BUT I THINK THE PRESSURES OF PRACTICE ARE BECOMING, IN SOME PRACTICES, OVERWHELMING.

JESS>> TO GO BACK TO YOUR TITLE, THERE ARE SOME PATIENTS THAT REALLY DO INFURIATE DOCTORS, ARE THERE NOT? WHAT SORT OF PATIENTS ARE THESE?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> OH, I DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) BUT SOME OF YOUR FRIENDS DO.

VAL>> WAIT A MINUTE. I CAN SAY THIS BECAUSE MY FATHER'S NOT IN L.A. AND CAN'T SEE THIS TELEVISION SHOW. MY DAD DRIVES DOCTORS CRAZY AND THEY'RE RIGHT TO BE DRIVEN CRAZY BY HIM. HE JUST INFURIATES THEM. HE DOESN'T FOLLOW DIRECTIONS, HE'S DIFFICULT, WHY WOULD YOU WANT HIM AS A PATIENT?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> ACTUALLY, THAT PATIENT IS NOT SO INFURIATING. THE PATIENT THAT IS DIFFICULT IS THE PATIENT THAT DOESN'T TRUST THEIR DOCTOR'S ADVICE --

VAL>> -- YEP, THAT'S HIM.

DR. ALLAN LEW>> -- AND QUESTIONS EVERY STEP --

VAL>> -- THAT'S HIM.

DR. ALLAN LEW>> -- BRINGS IN THREE OR FOUR HUNDRED PAGES OF INTERNET NOTES FOR REVIEW AND THEN SEEKS FOUR OR FIVE SECOND OPINIONS. I DON'T THINK THE PATIENT WHO'S NOT COMPLIANT IS SO DIFFICULT. ONE CAN REASON WITH THAT PATIENT.

JESS>> THERE'S NO RESPECT FOR HYPOCHONDRIACS.

DR. ALLAN LEW>> NONE WHATSOEVER (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> SO REAL QUICK, DO YOU REGRET BECOMING A DOCTOR? YES OR NO?

DR. ALLAN LEW>> NO.

JESS>> DR. ALLAN LEW, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AGAIN, THE TITLE OF THE BOOK SOON TO BE PUBLISHED, WE ASSUME, IS "WHY YOUR DOCTOR HATES YOU".

VAL>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, DR. LEW. A REMINDER THAT YOU CAN CHECK TRANSCRIPTS OR LISTEN TO RECENT BROADCASTS OF LIFE AND TIMES ON OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG.

JESS>> FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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