9/6/02

LC020906

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> THE L.A. COUNTY HEALTH SYSTEM IS ON LIFE SUPPORT, BUT BACKERS OF ONE HOSPITAL ARE STRUGGLING TO FIND A WAY TO KEEP IT ALIVE.

JAMES JACKSON>> I FEEL LIKE THEY JUST DON'T CARE. THIS IS A LITTLE SMALL RINKY-DINK HOSPITAL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT. OH, CLOSE THEM UP.

VAL>> MOST AMERICANS DIDN'T SUFFER ANY PERSONAL LOSS ON SEPTEMBER 11, BUT MANY SUSTAINED PSYCHOLOGICAL INJURIES. TONIGHT A LOOK AT THE EXPERIENCES OF ONE FAMILY NEAR GROUND ZERO.

>> IT WAS THE SECOND TOWER COLLAPSING AND I DIDN'T KNOW IT AT THAT POINT. I JUST THOUGHT IT'S ANOTHER BOMB, OH, MY GOD. THEN THERE WERE COPS, SECURITY GUARDS, EVERYONE WAS JUST YELLING RUN! I SCOOPED JASMINE UP IN MY ARMS AND I STARTED TO RUN.

JESS>> GET READY TO ABANDON ALL YOUR STEREOTYPES OF THE OLD WEST. A NEW EXHIBIT FOLLOWS THE TRAIL OF JEWISH SETTLERS IN AMERICA. THEY ARRIVED WITH THE FIRST SPANISH EXPEDITION IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY AND THEY WERE ON HAND FOR THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH. TONIGHT WE'LL LEARN ABOUT JEWISH CONTRIBUTIONS TO AMERICA'S WESTERN HERITAGE.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

THE GRIM PROGNOSIS FOR LOS ANGELES COUNTY'S HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IS NO SECRET. ELEVEN HEALTH CENTERS AND FOUR SCHOOL-BASED CLINICS WILL CLOSE THEIR DOORS BY OCTOBER 1.

VAL>> TONIGHT A LOOK AT THE HUMAN TOLL OF SOME OF THOSE CLOSINGS. WE'RE HEADED TO THE ANTELOPE VALLEY WHERE THE ONLY COUNTY HOSPITAL WITHIN REACH IS IN JEOPARDY. AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE RESIDENTS THERE ARE FIGHTING HARD TO KEEP THEIR HOSPITAL OPEN.

GAY YEE>> NESTLED UNDER BIG SKIES, SURROUNDED BY SAGEBRUSH, HIGH DESERT HOSPITAL SERVES AN AREA LARGER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTY HOSPITAL IN LOS ANGELES. IT COVERS 1,600 SQUARE MILES AND 350,000 PEOPLE, CITIES SUCH AS LANCASTER, PALMDALE AND BORON, WHICH IS WHERE 59-YEAR-OLD JAMES JACKSON LIVES.

JAMES JACKSON>> ONE EVENING, I'M LOOKING AT TELEVISION AND I HEAR GURGLING.

GAY YEE>> THE RETIRED CONSTRUCTION WORKER SUFFERS A FATAL DISEASE THAT LEFT FLUID IN HIS CHEST, SO OFF HE WENT TO HIGH DESERT HOSPITAL FIFTY MILES AWAY. THE NEXT CLOSEST PUBLIC HOSPITAL FOR HIM IS TWICE THAT FAR, IN BAKERSFIELD, AND JACKSON IS NOW LEARNING THAT HIGH DESERT HOSPITAL MAY BE CLOSED.

JAMES JACKSON>> I FEEL LIKE THEY JUST DON'T CARE. IT'S A LITTLE SMALL RINKY-DINK HOSPITAL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DESERT. OH, CLOSE THEM UP. WHEN THEY BUILT THIS, THERE WAS A REASON FOR IT TO BE BUILT IN THIS AREA. WELL, WHAT'S THE REASON? BECAUSE IT'S CONVENIENCE. I MEAN, THERE'S TOWNS WITH PEOPLE LIVING IN THEM THAT ARE SICK AND THEY CAN'T AFFORD HOSPITALIZATION. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

GAY YEE>> THE COUNTY SAYS THERE'S NOT MUCH IT CAN DO ABOUT IT. THE HEALTHCARE BUDGET IS $800 MILLION DOLLARS IN THE RED. CLOSING HIGH DESERT ALONG WITH ELEVEN CLINICS AND FOUR SCHOOL-BASED FACILITIES WOULD SAVE OVER $56 MILLION DOLLARS, SO THE TWO REMAINING ANTELOPE VALLEY HOSPITALS WILL HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK.

DR. DANIEL OBLITAS>> I'M DANIEL OBLITAS. I'M CHIEF OF INTERNAL MEDICINE AT HIGH DESERT HOSPITAL IN LANCASTER.

GAY YEE>> THE COUNTY'S PLAN IS TO TURN HIGH DESERT HOSPITAL INTO AN OUTPATIENT CLINIC. DR. OBLITAS IS CONCERNED HOW THIS WILL AFFECT HIS PATIENTS. MOST OF THEM ARE POOR AND SPANISH-SPEAKING. MANY OF THEM WILL BE FORCED TO DRIVE NINETY MILES TO LOS ANGELES FOR HEALTHCARE.

DR. DANIEL OBLITAS>> SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TRAVELING FOR TWO HOURS ONE WAY AND TWO HOURS COMING BACK FOR A FIFTEEN OR TWENTY MINUTE APPOINTMENT. IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT AND MOST OF OUR PATIENTS DO NOT HAVE TRANSPORTATION.

GAY YEE>> OH, THEY DON'T?

DR. DANIEL OBLITAS>> AND THE MAJORITY DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THE FARE FOR THE BUS OR THE FARE FOR THE TRAIN. MOST OF OUR PATIENTS ARE BY THEMSELVES. THEY ARE EITHER NEARLY HOMELESS OR THEY LIVE WITH A FRIEND THAT'S HELPING TO GET THEM THROUGH THE DAY.

GAY YEE>> DR. OBLITAS SAYS EVEN WITHOUT THE CLOSURE, THERE ARE FEWER HOSPITAL BEDS IN THE REGION THAN ANY OTHER PLACE IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY. HE SAYS CLOSING HIGH DESERT WOULD JUST WORSEN THE CROWDED EMERGENCY ROOM CONDITIONS AT THE TWO REMAINING HOSPITALS.

THIS IS THE ACUTE REHABILITATION UNIT WHICH WAS CLOSED IN MAY DUE TO BUDGET CUTS. TODAY IT'S AN EMPTY WARD WITH AN ABANDONED NURSING STATION AND DESOLATE HALLWAYS, WHICH IS WHAT THE REST OF THE HOSPITAL COULD LOOK LIKE SHOULD HIGH DESERT BE SHUTTERED. YET HIGH DESERT HAS BEEN GIVEN A SHORT REPRIEVE. COUNTY SUPERVISORS HAVE AGREED TO GIVE THE HOSPITAL SIX MONTHS TO PROVE THAT A PUBLIC PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP CAN SAVE THE HOSPITAL BY GENERATING $10 MILLION TO $12 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. ALREADY SOME PRIVATE HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS HAVE AGREED TO SEND THEIR PATIENTS TO HIGH DESERT.

NORM HICKLING>> IT'S GIVING THEM THE BUSINESS, EXACTLY. IN A VERY SHORT TERM, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

GAY YEE>> AND BY DOING THAT --

NORM HICKLING>> -- AND IT'S PAYABLE BUSINESS TOO. IT'S NOT BUSINESS THAT THEY'RE DOING, YOU KNOW, PRO BONO OR NON-PAYABLE BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS UNINSURED. IT IS BUSINESS THAT WILL PAY BECAUSE WE HAVE THE CONTRACTS WITH DIFFERENT HMO INSURANCE PLANS THAT WILL THEN PAY US AND THEN WE, AS A MEDICAL GROUP, COULD PAY THE HOSPITAL.

GAY YEE>> HICKLING SAYS IF THE PLAN SUCCEEDS, IT COULD SERVE AS A MODEL TO OTHER COUNTY HEALTH FACILITIES, BUT IF IT FAILS, THE HOSPITAL WILL CLOSE. PATIENTS LIKE JAMES JACKSON SAY THAT WOULD BE TRAGIC.

JAMES JACKSON>> WHEN YOU WATCH THESE KIDS COME IN HERE, THEY LIVE IN THIS AREA AND THEY NEED HELP BECAUSE THEY MAY NOT HAVE A CAR TO GO WAY, YOU KNOW, TO THE OTHER SIDE OF TOWN. SO THEY BRING THEM HERE AND NOT ONLY ARE THEY GOING TO GET TREATED, THEY'RE GOING TO GET SPECIAL TREATMENT, YOU KNOW? MAKES ME SAD AND UPSET TO LET THE COUNTY DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

JESS>> WE'RE JOINED NOW BY DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE. HE'S DIRECTOR AND CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES. HE'S BEEN ON THE JOB ONLY SINCE FEBRUARY AND HE NOW FACES INSTITUTING SOME OF THESE DRASTIC CUTBACKS. DR., WELCOME AND THANKS FOR JOINING US. THIS MAY NOT BE ALL THAT NEW TO YOU AS FORMER UNDER-SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AFFAIRS AT THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION. YOU CHANGED MANY OF THOSE HOSPITALS TO CLINICS, DID YOU NOT?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> WE DID. WE CLOSED OVER HALF OF THE ACUTE CARE BEDS AND, IN MANY CASES, WERE ABLE TO INCREASE THE ACCESS TO CARE FOR VETERANS, SO IT IS POSSIBLE TO BECOME MORE EFFICIENT AND MOVE TO AN OUTPATIENT MODEL OF CARE. THAT'S NOT ALL THAT'S GOING ON IN THE ANTELOPE VALLEY, BUT IT'S A SIGNIFICANT PART OF IT.

VAL>> BUT WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THE ELDERLY GENTLEMAN WE JUST SAW? HE SAYS THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT US, WE NEED THIS HOSPITAL, IT WAS BUILT FOR A REASON, HOW CAN THEY CLOSE IT DOWN? IF YOU WERE ABLE TO TALK TO HIM, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S HARD FOR AN INDIVIDUAL. THERE WILL BE INDIVIDUALS WHO DON'T GET THE KIND OF CARE THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO GIVE THEM IF WE HAD ALL THE MONEY THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE. BUT THINK ABOUT THE 3,000 TO 5,000 ADDITIONAL PATIENTS IN THE ANTELOPE VALLEY THAT WE WOULD BE ABLE TO TREAT IF WE CONVERTED SOME OF THE MONEY WE WASTE TRYING TO RUN AN INEFFICIENT SMALL HOSPITAL INTO A CLINIC WHERE THE PATIENTS ACTUALLY LIVE.

VAL>> SO THIS IS A SMALL HOSPITAL? HOW SMALL IS IT?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> IT'S REALLY EIGHTEEN BEDS IN THE INPATIENT ACUTE SETTING.

VAL>> ONLY EIGHTEEN?

JESS>> AND IT'S INEFFICIENT?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> WELL, LAST YEAR WE TREATED 153 UNINSURED PATIENTS FROM THE ANTELOPE VALLEY IN THE HOSPITAL AND THE NET COUNTY COST FOR RUNNING THE HOSPITAL IS CLOSE TO $20 MILLION DOLLARS.

VAL>> SO $20 MILLION DOLLARS FOR A VERY FEW PATIENTS, YOU'RE SAYING?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> RIGHT. WELL, WE THINK THAT WE CAN SAVE SOME MONEY TO PUT AGAINST OUR DEFICIT. IN ADDITION, WE CAN EXPAND OUTPATIENT CARE AND REALLY ADDRESS CARE, MAYBE EVEN PREVENT HOSPITALIZATIONS, FOR SEVERAL THOUSAND PATIENTS.

JESS>> NOW YOU'VE GOT A SIX-MONTH TRIAL PERIOD TO KEEP THIS HOSPITAL OPEN, BUT YOU SOUND AS THOUGH IT'S UNLIKELY IT'S GOING TO STAY OPEN.

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> NO, WE'RE OPEN TO THE EXPERIMENT THAT'S GOING ON WITH THE COMMUNITY. THE COMMUNITY HAS PUT TOGETHER SOME ARRANGEMENTS WITH OTHER PROVIDERS UP THERE TO USE SOME OF THOSE BEDS TO BRING IN ADDITIONAL DOLLARS AND WE'RE WORKING WITH THEM TO TRY TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN. BUT IN THE EVENT THAT IT DOESN'T, I STILL THINK THAT OUR MODEL IS A REASONABLE MODEL TO IMPROVE CARE IN SOME WAYS. I MEAN, IT'S JUST VERY HARD TO RUN A HOSPITAL THAT SMALL.

JESS>> THAT SIX-MONTH PERIOD THEY'VE GOT, FIFTY BEDS WILL BE PROVIDED FOR LONG-TERM MEDICAL CARE FOR AILING PRISON INMATES AND THE OTHER HOSPITALS ARE WILLING TO SEND SOME PAYING CUSTOMERS TO THAT HOSPITAL?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> THAT'S CORRECT.

JESS>> IS THAT A FORMULA THAT MIGHT WORK?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> YEAH, WE WERE ESPECIALLY INTRIGUED BY THE LONG-TERM CARE ASPECTS, BOTH THE PRISON PATIENTS AND LONG-TERM TUBERCULOSIS PATIENTS, BOTH OF WHOM WE HAVE OTHER SOURCES OF FUNDING FOR. WE THINK WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT A GOOD BUSINESS MODEL AND WE MIGHT MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO EVEN CONTRIBUTE TO PAYING FOR THE UNINSURED IN THAT AREA. WE NEED SOME AGREEMENTS. WE'RE ACTUALLY PURSUING THAT PRETTY AGGRESSIVELY WITH THE COMMUNITY AND INTERNALLY.

VAL>> NOW THERE ARE THE OTHER TWO HOSPITALS, KAISER AND ANTELOPE VALLEY HOSPITAL. IF HIGH DESERT DOES CLOSE, WHAT KIND OF IMPACT WILL IT HAVE ON THE OTHER TWO? WILL THEY BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE PATIENTS THAT WILL NO DOUBT GO TO THEM? WILL THEY ACCEPT THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE UNINSURED? WHAT'S THE STORY THERE?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> WELL, IF SOMEBODY SHOWS UP IN YOUR EMERGENCY ROOM, YOU'RE OBLIGATED TO TREAT THEM UNDER MTALA REGULATIONS. THEY'RE STRESSED BECAUSE OF THE NUMBER OF BEDS IN THE AREA. WE'VE OFFERED TO LEASE THE BEDS TO THOSE FACILITIES, BUT THEY'VE NOT TAKEN US UP ON THAT, SO WE WOULD BE WILLING TO ENTER INTO THOSE KINDS OF ARRANGEMENTS.

VAL>> BUT ARE YOU SAYING THE OTHER TWO HOSPITALS DON'T REALLY HAVE THE ROOM OR THE RESOURCES TO ABSORB THE PATIENTS WHO WOULD NORMALLY GO TO HIGH DESERT? THEY CAN OR CANNOT?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> THEY CAN ABSORB A FEW, I BELIEVE. ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THAT THEY'RE OVERWHELMED IN THEIR EMERGENCY AREA. OUR PLAN WOULD OPEN AN AMBULATORY CENTER CLOSE TO WHERE PATIENTS LIVE AND WOULD PROVIDE NIGHT AND IMMEDIATE, LIKE A WALK-IN SERVICE. WE THINK THAT WILL HELP DECONGEST THEIR EMERGENCY ROOM, ALLOWING THEM TO TURN SOME OF THOSE RESOURCES THAT THEY DON'T GET REIMBURSED FOR BACK TO SOME INPATIENT STAYS. WE WOULD TAKE ON SOME OF THOSE AMBULATORY CASES AND DECONGEST THEIR EMERGENCY ROOMS. I THINK THEY ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S A GOOD IDEA IN THOSE HOSPITALS.

JESS>> AND WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE COUNTY? IS THE ANTELOPE VALLEY THE ONLY ONE WHO'S GOING TO SUFFER THESE, SOME WOULD SAY, DRACONIAN CUTS?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> WE HAVE A LOT MORE MONEY TO MAKE UP UNLESS WE GET SOME KIND OF RELIEF FINANCIALLY. WE'RE WORKING WITH THE STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS AT THIS POINT IN TIME TO TRY TO ADDRESS A WAIVER THAT WE HAVE UNDER MEDICAID RULES THAT'S BEING PHASED OUT.

JESS>> WHEN SOME MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF SUPERVISORS WENT TO SACRAMENTO AND STOOD OUTSIDE THE GOVERNOR'S DOOR TO TRY TO GET HIM TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT AID POSSIBLY FOR COUNTY HEALTH, HE WOULDN'T EVEN SEE THEM.

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> HE HASN'T MET DIRECTLY. HIS STAFF HAVE MET. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE WORKING WITH THE STATE AND HEALTH OFFICIALS TO TRY TO MAKE THIS ALL GO FORWARD. RIGHT NOW WE'RE COOPERATING AND WE'RE SETTING A DATE FOR EARLY OCTOBER TO GET BACK TO THE MEDICAID OFFICIALS IN WASHINGTON.

VAL>> AND VERY BRIEFLY, YOU TOOK ON A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT JOB. FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, ARE YOU GOING TO BE HAPPY YOU TOOK IT?

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A GREAT JOB BECAUSE IT'S A WORTHY MISSION, I MEAN, TO TRY TO FIND A BETTER SYSTEM AND A MORE EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT WAY TO DELIVER CARE TO PEOPLE LIKE THE GENTLEMAN THAT WAS SHOWN IN YOUR VIDEO. I MEAN, IT'S A GOOD REASON TO GET UP IN THE MORNING.

VAL>> GOOD. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. YOU'VE GOT A BIG JOB. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

DR. THOMAS GARTHWAITE>> THANKS VERY MUCH.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, A SILENT INVADER IS CREEPING ALONG CALIFORNIA'S SHORES AND NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW HOW TO STOP IT.

LEAH SANDERS>> THAT GREEN FERN-LOOKING PLANT REALLY ISN'T A FERN AT ALL. IT'S ACTUALLY A KILLER ALGAE AND IT'S IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S WATERS.

>> THE PROBLEM WITH IT, IT WOULD GROW SO FAST THAT IT WOULD START OVERTAKING THE WHOLE REEF AND EVENTUALLY, IF IT'S LEFT UNCHECKED, IT WILL SMOTHER OUT EVERYTHING.

JESS>> IMAGES FROM THE COLLAPSE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ARE INDELIBLY ETCHED IN OUR MINDS AND, AS SEPTEMBER 11 APPROACHES, MANY AMERICANS WILL RELIVE ALL THE FEELINGS FROM THAT DAY.

VAL>> PSYCHIATRISTS AT UCLA HELPED CRAFT A NEW DOCUMENTARY ON THE LINGERING TRAUMA OF THE TERRORIST ATTACKS. IT'S THE STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED TO A GRANDMOTHER, A MOTHER AND HER THREE-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER. ALL WERE JUST ONE BLOCK AWAY WHEN THE TWIN TOWERS FELL. HERE'S A SAMPLE OF THE PROGRAM.

>> WHEN WE GOT HERE, SHE WAS LIKE IN A DAZE. SHE WAS SITTING ON THE SOFA IN A DAZE AND NOT BELIEVING THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENED AND NOT BELIEVING THAT WE MADE IT, THAT WE GOT OUT OF IT, THE THREE OF US.

>> I COULDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW IS A FOUR-YEAR-OLD GOING TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT JUST HAPPENED? THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT HER FOREVER. HOW DO I MAKE SURE THAT IT DOESN'T AFFECT HER IN THIS HORRIBLE WAY? SO BEING CONSCIOUS OF LIKE NEEDING TO BE THERE IN SOME GOOD SOLID WAY FOR HER AND, AT THE SAME TIME, NEEDING TO JUST SIT WITH MY OWN SHOCK AND WATCH THIS NEWS FOOTAGE OVER AND OVER AGAIN, I FELT LIKE I NEEDED HELP, LIKE IT WAS TOO MUCH FOR ME TO JUGGLE BY MYSELF.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS DR. ROBERT PYNOOS. HE IS PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AT UCLA AND CO-DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL CENTER FOR CHILD TRAUMATIC STRESS. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, DOCTOR.

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

JESS>> IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, YOU DO NOT SHOW ANY SHOTS OF THE TWIN TOWERS GOING DOWN.

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> NO. ACTUALLY, THIS WAS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY FOR PSYCHIATRISTS LIKE MYSELF AND OUR NATIONAL CENTER ALONG WITH THE UCLA CENTER FOR COMMUNITY HEALTH TO ACTUALLY HELP A DOCUMENTARY MAKER ILLUSTRATE WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR AN AVERAGE FAMILY TO BE IN THE LARGEST EVACUATION UNDER TRAGIC CIRCUMSTANCES PROBABLY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES IN TERMS OF SCHOOLS AND RESIDENTS. WE THOUGHT THAT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO COMMUNICATE THE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND THEIR COURSE OF RECOVERY AS A FAMILY WITHOUT THE CUES OF THOSE KINDS OF TRAUMATIC IMAGES WHICH WOULD IMMEDIATELY INTERRUPT, I THINK, THE ATTENTION OF MOST ANY OF US TO THE ACTUAL LISTENING CAREFULLY TO THIS FAMILY'S DESCRIPTION OF THEIR EFFORTS TO RECOVER.

VAL>> WAS IT DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE THE DOCUMENTARY MAKERS NOT TO USE THOSE PLANE CRASH IMAGES?

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> IT WAS AT FIRST AND AT DIFFERENT POINTS ALONG THE WAY BECAUSE I THINK WE ALL ASSUME THAT IT'S THOSE IMAGES THAT WILL GRAB THE ATTENTION. BUT ACTUALLY WHAT THEY DO, WHICH IS A CAUTION FOR SEPTEMBER 11 IN WATCHING TELEVISION, IS THE MEDIA PRESENTS VERY BRIEF SORT OF IMAGES. THEY'RE NOT WHAT WE DO IN THERAPY WHERE WE KIND OF EXPOSE PEOPLE OVER TIME AT A MORE EXTENDED LENGTH. THESE ARE BRIEF AND THEY'RE JUST GOING TO CAUSE YOU TO BE MORE REACTIVE AND AROUSED AND POTENTIALLY FEARFUL AGAIN. AT THOSE POINTS, YOU DON'T ACTUALLY TAKE IN INFORMATION WELL. WE WANTED THIS TO BE ONE IN WHICH YOU COULD ACTUALLY LISTEN TO AND RESPECT THE KIND OF EFFORT AND SERIOUSNESS IT IS FOR A FAMILY TO RECOVER FROM THIS KIND OF EXPERIENCE.

JESS>> CAN YOU SAY WHICH WAS MORE DIFFICULT? THE CHILDREN'S RESPONSE OR THE ADULT RESPONSE?

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> WELL, ACTUALLY, WHAT WE INITIATED AS A SERIES THAT WE HOPE THAT THE NATIONAL CENTER WILL PRODUCE, MAYBE WITH THE UCLA CENTER FOR COMMUNITY HEALTH, ON PARENTING UNDER STRESS AND WHAT IT'S LIKE, ESPECIALLY WHAT WE SAID IS THAT THE MEDIA DISCUSSION AFTER SEPTEMBER 11 IMMEDIATELY TURNED TO SORT OF CHILDREN'S REACTIONS. BUT WE KNEW FROM MANY OF OUR SITES WORKING VERY HARD IN NEW YORK THAT THIS IS AN ENORMOUS EXPERIENCE FOR PARENTS. THERE WAS AN ENORMOUS CHALLENGE TO PARENTING WHILE TRAUMATIZED OR DEALING WITH LIVING UNDER DANGER. WE WANTED A DOCUMENTARY THAT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PARENTS' POINT OF VIEW WHAT IT WAS EVEN LIKE TO WORK WITH A CHILD WHO WAS HERSELF TRAUMATIZED AND THE MOTHER TRYING TO RECOVER AT THE SAME TIME.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP OF THE LITTLE GIRL, SHE WAS THREE AND THEN FOUR YEARS OLD, AND HER REACTION. HERE IT IS.

>> SHE WAS JUST CREATING THESE IMAGINARY SCENES AND, IN THESE SCENES, THERE WAS ALWAYS SMOKE, LAVA, FIRE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT WAS HAPPENING. THE WHOLE POINT WAS THAT I'D HAVE TO SCOOP HER UP AND GET HER TO SAFETY.

>> THE PLAY ALWAYS HAD THE EMPHASIS OF DANGER, OF IMPENDING DOOM, IF YOU WILL, AND TRYING TO REACH SAFETY, SAFETY BEING THE BED OR SAFETY BEING IN HER MOTHER'S ARMS OR MY ARMS, HER SAFETY.

>> WHEN IT GOT TO THE FOUR-MONTH MARK, I WAS LIKE AM I DOING THE RIGHT THING? IS THIS GOING ON TOO LONG? MAYBE I SHOULD GET HELP. MAYBE SHE'S NOT GETTING BETTER. MAYBE PLAYING THE GAMES IS NOT A GOOD THING. I JUST WASN'T SURE. I FELT VERY UNSURE.

>> AS WE LET HER PLAY THROUGH IT, THE NUMBER OF FREQUENCY OF THIS STARTED DECREASING.

>> THEN WHEN IT GOT TO FIVE MONTHS, IT STOPPED. IT JUST DID, AND SHE WENT INTO THE DRESS-UP CLOTHES, CINDERELLA, SLEEPING BEAUTY PHASE WHERE SHE STILL IS RIGHT NOW. THE RESCUE THEMES AND THE EXPLOSION THEMES JUST STOPPED.

VAL>> SO IT SOUNDS AS IF WHAT THIS LITTLE GIRL WENT THROUGH WAS THERAPEUTIC. IT WAS ALMOST LIKE SELF-THERAPY, IN A SENSE?

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> WELL, TRAUMATIC PLAY, WHICH WAS WHAT THE MOTHER WAS DESCRIBING, IS A SPECIAL KIND OF PLAY WHERE CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN TRAUMATIZED OFTEN REPEAT THEMES OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM IN THEIR PLAY SEEMINGLY OVER AND OVER AGAIN. IT IS AN INDICATION, AS THIS MOTHER TOOK IT TO BE, OF THE SERIOUSNESS OF HER CHILD'S EXPERIENCE. SO I THINK HER WILLINGNESS TO PARTICIPATE WITH HER CHILD WAS A RECOGNITION TO HER CHILD THAT SHE TOOK SERIOUS WITH HER CHILD'S EXPERIENCING THIS EVACUATION WHICH, IF ANYONE WATCHES THE DOCUMENTARY, WILL REALIZE HOW HARROWING IT WAS AND HOW HARROWING A SEPARATION FROM HER MOTHER WAS DURING THAT TIME.

BY DOING THAT, I THINK SHE ALSO KNEW IT WAS A KIND OF HISTORY-TELLING AND A WISH FOR HER DAUGHTER TO SEEK A KIND OF RESCUE AND SAFETY. SHE HELPED PARTICIPATE IN THAT, BUT SHE DIDN'T JUST DO THAT BECAUSE SHE MONITORED IT. SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT, IF IT CONTINUED, IT REALLY SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY AS A SYMPTOM AND SHOULD CONSIDER PROFESSIONAL CARE FOR HER CHILD. SO I THINK SHE DID BOTH. SHE ASSISTED HER CHILD AND, AT THE SAME TIME, MONITORED HER FOR POSSIBLE REFERRAL.

JESS>> WE LOOK FORWARD TO THAT DOCUMENTARY.

VAL>> THANK YOU, DR. ROBERT PYNOOS, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AT UCLA. THANK YOU SO MUCH AND CONGRATULATIONS ON A WONDERFUL PROGRAM.

DR. ROBERT PYNOOS>> THANK YOU. GOOD TO BE HERE.

VAL>> THE PROGRAM, AGAIN, IS TITLED "SURVIVING SEPTEMBER 11: THE STORY OF ONE NEW YORK FAMILY" AND IT AIRS THIS SUNDAY AT 11:00 P.M. ON KCET.

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

JESS>> MOST AMERICANS SEE THE OLD WEST AS A LAND INHABITED BY DUSTY COWBOYS IN TEN-GALLON HATS, BUT FOR ONE GROUP OF SETTLERS, THE PROPER HEAD GEAR MIGHT WELL HAVE BEEN A YAMAKA.

VAL>> THE HISTORY OF JEWS IN THE AMERICAN WEST BEGINS WITH THE EARLIEST SETTLERS HEADING WEST ON THE SANTA FE TRAIL NEARLY TWO CENTURIES AGO. NOW A DISPLAY AT THE AUTRY MUSEUM CAPTURES THE HISTORY AND ADVENTURES OF THESE PIONEERS IN AN EXHIBIT TITLED "JEWISH LIFE IN THE AMERICAN WEST".

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS THE AUTRY MUSEUM'S MANAGING CURATOR, MICHAEL DUCHEMIN. THANKS FOR JOINING US.

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> WHAT EXAMPLES DO YOU HAVE ON DISPLAY THAT REALLY ILLUSTRATE HOW JEWS DID PARTICIPATE IN ALL THE WEST -- GOING BACK TO, WHAT, 1860?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> THE EARLIEST EXAMPLES IN THE EXHIBIT ACTUALLY DATE TO 1590 WHEN THE SOUTHWESTERN UNITED STATES WAS PART OF SPAIN AND LATER MEXICO.

JESS>> THERE WERE JEWS IN SANTA FE?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> THERE WERE JEWS IN SANTA FE AND THE SANTA FE TRAIL STORY THAT YOU MENTIONED IN THE OPENING WAS AN IMPORTANT ASPECT OF IT. OF COURSE, JEWISH LIFE WAS FORBIDDEN UNDER SPANISH AND MEXICAN RULE. YOU WERE NOT ALLOWED TO PRACTICE JUDAISM AND SO IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER THE AMERICAN WAR WITH MEXICO IN THE 1840'S THAT SANTA FE OPENED UP AND JEWISH LIFE COULD REALLY BE PRACTICED OUT IN THE OPEN.

JESS>> IN 1924, THIS NATION LIMITED JEWISH IMMIGRATION TOO. DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> WE ABSOLUTELY DO. IN 1924, THE UNITED STATES LIMITED ALL IMMIGRATION. NOT JUST JEWISH IMMIGRATION, BUT ALL IMMIGRATION WAS CURTAILED BACK TO AN EARLIER PERCENTAGE OF THE 1890 IMMIGRATION STANDARD. THE EXHIBIT REALLY ENDS AT THAT TIME PERIOD. WE CHOSE NOT TO GO FORWARD INTO THE TWENTIETH CENTURY STORY BECAUSE WE REALLY WANTED TO CONCENTRATE ON THE JEWISH EXPERIENCE OF THE PIONEER JEWS, THE NINETEENTH CENTURY AND EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURY STORY. THE EXHIBIT REALLY FOCUSES IN PART ON THE IMMIGRATION STORY AND THIS IS AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS COMMON TO ALL AMERICANS, OR MOST AMERICANS. SO IN DOING THAT, IT BOTH REALLY FOR THE JEWISH COMMUNITY PROVIDES AN UNDERSTANDING THAT JEWS WERE PART OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE TOO.

VAL>> BUT YOU NEVER THINK ABOUT -- WE'RE SEEING NOW SOME OF THE ARTIFACTS AND SOME OF THE WONDERFUL COLLECTIONS --

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> -- WE DREW ON SEVENTY-SEVEN DIFFERENT COLLECTIONS FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY TO PUT THE EXHIBITION TOGETHER. WE'VE WORKED ON IT OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS AND HAVE PRODUCED A CATALOG IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE EXHIBIT.

VAL>> NOW WE ALWAYS THINK OF JEWS GOING TO NEW YORK, BUT WHAT DREW THEM TO THE WEST?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> WELL, IN MANY CASES, IT'S THE SAME KINDS OF OPPORTUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST EARLY DRAWS AND, IF YOU REMEMBER, IN 1848 IT WAS A TIME OF REVOLUTION IN EUROPE AND THERE WAS A LOT OF UPHEAVAL. IN MANY COUNTRIES AND PRINCIPALITIES THROUGHOUT EUROPE, YOUNG MEN WERE BEING CONSCRIPTED TO FIGHT IN ONE WAR OR ANOTHER. SO A LOT OF YOUNG JEWISH MEN LEFT EUROPE, AS DID MEN OF ALL TYPES, TO COME TO AMERICA AND THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH WAS THE LURE. SO YOU HAVE PUSH AND PULL FACTORS THAT WERE AT WORK THERE, DRIVING PEOPLE OUT OF EUROPE AND ALSO ENCOURAGING THEM TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES.

JESS>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT YOUR MUSEUM THINK THE AUTRY MUSEUM OF WESTERN HERITAGE IS COWBOYS AND INDIANS.

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> WELL, IT IS A BIG PART OF WHAT WE TALK ABOUT, BUT OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, THE MUSEUM HAS REALLY MADE A COMMITMENT TO DIVERSITY AND UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN WEST IN A MUCH BROADER CONTEXT. THE WEST AND THE MYTH OF THE FRONTIER IS A BIG PART OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE AND WE'RE TRYING TO SHOW THROUGH THIS SERIES OF EXHIBITIONS THAT WE'VE DONE AND, SOON TO BE NEXT YEAR, CHANGES IN OUR PERMANENT GALLERIES THAT REALLY INCORPORATE THE VARIETY OF STORIES AND THE DIVERSITY OF STORIES THAT WE'VE PUT TOGETHER.

VAL>> TO WHAT EXTENT DID THEY EXPERIENCE ANTI-SEMITISM WHEN THEY WERE IN THE WEST AS OPPOSED TO BEING ON THE EAST COAST?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> WELL, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, BECAUSE THERE WERE FEWER PEOPLE IN THE EARLY SETTLEMENTS, THERE WAS, I BELIEVE, A LOWER LEVEL OF ANTI-SEMITISM IN WESTERN TOWNS. YOU SEE JEWISH MAYORS, JEWISH POSTMASTERS, A HIGH LEVEL OF CIVIC CONTRIBUTION. THERE WERE SO FEW PEOPLE STARTING OUT EARLY TOWNS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE WEST, THE GREAT BASIN, THE GREAT PLAINS, THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, THE SOUTHWEST, THROUGHOUT ALL THOSE AREAS, THAT ANYONE WHO HAD SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE WAS WELCOMED INTO THAT MIX. MANY EARLY JEWISH PIONEERS STARTING OUT AS TRADERS, AND MERCHANTS IN PARTICULAR, PLAYED IMPORTANT ROLES IN EARLY COMMUNITIES AND, AS A RESULT, THEY BECAME LEADING MEMBERS OF THOSE COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> SO IT WAS A MORE OPEN SOCIETY?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> I BELIEVE IT WAS A MORE OPEN SOCIETY.

JESS>> WE THINK OF THEM WITH THE GOLD RUSH PERHAPS, BUT SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, EVEN IN THE EARLY YEARS, WAS MUCH INFLUENCED BY THE JEWISH IMMIGRATION, WAS IT NOT?

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> IT WAS. THE EARLIEST EXAMPLES IN THE EXHIBIT REALLY DATE FROM THE 1850'S. IN FACT, A MAN BY THE NAME OF SOLOMON CARVALHO WAS INVOLVED IN CREATING THE FIRST HEBREW BENEVOLENT SOCIETY IN LOS ANGELES. HE HAD BEEN THE ARTIST AND PHOTOGRAPHER FOR JOHN C. FREMONT, SOMETIMES CALLED THE PATHFINDER, WHO WAS ONE OF THE EARLY EXPLORERS IN THE WEST WHO HELPED OPEN UP A NUMBER OF THE TRAILS. CARVALHO WAS HIS PHOTOGRAPHER AND ARTIST AND, AFTER THEIR TRIP IN 1853 AND 1854, HE ENDED UP COMING TO LOS ANGELES AND HELPED FORM THE COMMUNITY THERE.

SOME OF THE PHOTOS WE'RE SEEING HERE ARE OF RABBI WILLIAM KRAMER AND THIS IS ABE NEBRAT. THE NEBRAT FAMILY STORY IS ONE OF SEVERAL FAMILY STORIES THAT ARE TOLD IN THE EXHIBIT. WE USE A FAMILY HISTORY AS A MEANS OF HELPING PEOPLE RELATE TO A LARGER, BROADER CONTEXT OF HISTORY.

JESS>> WE SHOULD TELL PEOPLE THAT THE EXHIBIT RUNS AT THE AUTRY MUSEUM THROUGH JANUARY 20. IF YOU'D LIKE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT "JEWISH LIFE IN THE AMERICAN WEST", YOU CAN VISIT THE WEBSITE AT WWW.AUTRY-MUSEUM.ORG.

VAL>> AND THANK YOU SO MUCH, MICHAEL DUCHEMIN, FOR COMING IN. WE APPRECIATE THAT.

MICHAEL DUCHEMIN>> THANK YOU. IT'S BEEN MY PLEASURE.

VAL>> AND WE INVITE YOU TO LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO GET TRANSCRIPTS OR AUDIO OF RECENT LIFE AND TIMES BROADCASTS. JUST GO TO KCET.ORG AND CLICK ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> AND NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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