9/27/02

LC020927

JESS MARLOW>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

AT A TIME WHEN MUSLIMS ARE BEING TARGETED FOR HATE CRIMES, THEY WORRY ABOUT BEING MISTAKEN FOR SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT.

GAY YEE>> THEY ARE CHRISTIANS FROM THE MUSLIM WORLD. CALIFORNIA USED TO BE A SAFE REFUGE FOR THEM AND THEIR RELIGION, BUT THAT ALL CHANGED LAST MONTH WITH A FATAL HOLDUP.

MARY SAID>> I THINK IT WAS A WAKE-UP CALL AS FAR AS OUR COMMUNITY, EGYPTIAN CHRISTIANS. I THINK MANY OF US FEEL THAT WE’RE NOT AS SAFE AS WE THOUGHT.

JESS>> HIS JOURNEY TOOK HIM FOUR MONTHS AND COVERED 12,000 MILES. TONIGHT THE STORY OF ENRIQUE, A YOUNG MAN WHO LEFT HONDURAS TO SEARCH FOR HIS MOTHER IN NORTH CAROLINA. WE’LL GET DETAILS FROM AN L.A. TIMES REPORTER WHO SPENT TWO YEARS CHRONICLING “ENRIQUE’S JOURNEY”.

IT’S A HIT MOVIE AT THE BOX OFFICE, BUT A MISS WITH SOME AFRICAN-AMERICAN LEADERS.

[FILM CLIP]

TONIGHT A LOOK AT HOW THE HIT COMEDY, “BARBERSHOP”, HAS SPARKED A NEW CONTROVERSY OVER RACE, POLITICS AND POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IN AMERICA.

THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I’M JESS MARLOW. VAL HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

IT IS ONE OF THE UGLY BYPRODUCTS OF THE TIMES IN WHICH WE LIVE. HATE CRIMES HAVE SKYROCKETED ACROSS CALIFORNIA IN THE YEAR SINCE THE 9/11 ATTACKS AND MOST OF THE TARGETS HAVE BEEN MUSLIMS. BUT TONIGHT WE HAVE THE STORY OF A CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN WHICH PEOPLE SOMETIMES ARE MISTAKEN FOR MUSLIMS. FOLLOWERS OF THE COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH SAY ONE OF THEIR OWN HAS ALREADY BEEN MURDERED AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, MANY BELIEVE HE WAS THE VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME.

GAY YEE>> THEY CAME IN SEARCH OF A BETTER LIFE FOR THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS AND FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. THEY ARE CHRISTIANS WHO IMMIGRATED TO AMERICA FROM EGYPT.

FR. ANTONIOUS HENEIN>> IN EGYPT, BECAUSE WE ARE A MINORITY OF CHRISTIANS, WE WERE IN MOST OF OUR HISTORY MISTREATED AND DID NOT HAVE OUR FULL RIGHTS AS THE OTHER EGYPTIANS WHO ARE THE MAJORITY THAT ARE MUSLIMS. FOR MANY OF US, WE FOUND OUT THAT IT'S BETTER FOR US TO IMMIGRATE.

GAY YEE>> THE HOLY VIRGIN MARY CHURCH IS ONE OF THE FIRST COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCHES IN LOS ANGELES. THREE HUNDRED FIFTY CHRISTIAN FAMILIES MAKE UP THE CONGREGATION, A CLOSE-KNIT COMMUNITY FILLED WITH THE WARMTH OF FAITH AND A COMMON HERITAGE. BUT FOUR DAYS AFTER THE TRAUMATIC EVENTS IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, THE COPTIC COMMUNITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SUFFERED ITS OWN TRAGEDY, ONE THAT INTRODUCED THIS SECURE COMMUNITY TO THE KIND OF HATE THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD ESCAPED LONG AGO.

ADEL KARAS WAS A SAN GABRIEL GROCER AND A WELL-RESPECTED MEMBER OF THE COPTIC COMMUNITY. HE WAS GUNNED DOWN BEHIND THE COUNTER OF HIS STORE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE ROBBERY SINCE NO CASH WAS TAKEN. MANY OF KARAS' FRIENDS AND FAMILY BELIEVE IT WAS A HATE CRIME, THAT KARAS WAS MISTAKEN FOR A MUSLIM.

GEORGE MIKHAIL>> AND THE PEOPLE THAT COMMITTED THIS HATE CRIME AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMED THAT EVERYBODY FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, EVERYBODY THAT LOOKED MIDDLE EASTERN, WAS MUSLIM AND EVERYBODY THAT WAS MUSLIM WAS A TERRORIST.

>> WE ARE COMMEMORATING THE FORTIETH DAY OF OUR REPOSED DEAR MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, ADEL KARAS, WHO MOVED ON FROM THE STRUGGLING CHURCH ON EARTH TO THE VICTORIOUS ONE IN HEAVEN.

GAY YEE>> THIS SPECIAL LITURGY, OR MASS, WAS HELD TO HONOR KARAS FORTY DAYS AFTER HIS DEATH.

ANDREW KARAS>> SOME PEOPLE REMEMBER MY DAD AS A FUNNY GUY, A TRUSTWORTHY GUY, OR EVEN A COMPASSIONATE GUY, BUT REALLY HE WAS ALL THOSE TO ME AND I'M SURE MANY OTHER PEOPLE HERE TOO.

MICHAEL KARAS>> WHENEVER ONE OF MY BROTHERS AND I HAD A SMALL LITTLE PLAY OR EVEN A SMALL PART OF A SONG, HE WOULD LEAVE HIS WORK AND BRING HIS VIDEO CAMERA AND GO TO OUR SCHOOL AND VIDEOTAPE US. NOW DON'T YOU THINK THAT HE WAS THE BEST PERSON?

JOHN PAUL KARAS>> I DON'T KNOW WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING TO A LOVING MAN LIKE MY FATHER. I DON'T KNOW, BUT I KNOW THAT HE'S IN A BETTER PLACE RIGHT NOW.

MARY SAID>> I THINK IT'S A SAD THING THAT THE THREE BOYS HAVE TO GROW UP WITHOUT A FATHER BECAUSE OF SOMEONE'S IGNORANCE AND SOMEONE ACTED ON LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. NOW HIS THREE BOYS ARE LEFT TO GROW UP WITHOUT THEIR FATHER AND FEELING THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS WORLD THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO FEEL SAFE IN, THAT THEIR FAMILY CAME TO BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO FEEL SAFE AND BECAUSE THEY WANTED THE FREEDOM, IS THE SAME WORLD THAT WAS AN INDIRECT CAUSE OF THEIR FATHER NOT BEING WITH THEM ANYMORE.

GAY YEE>> CHURCH LEADERS SAY TERRORIST ATTACKS AND TRAGEDIES ARE NOT NEW TO THOSE IN THE COPTIC COMMUNITY. THEY'VE ENDURED PERSECUTION FOR CENTURIES. THIS ANCIENT VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY DATES BACK 2,000 YEARS IN EGYPT TO ST. MARK THE APOSTLE. AS SOME MUSLIM PRACTICES WERE ADOPTED, SUCH AS THE SEPARATION OF THE MEN FROM THE WOMEN, OTHER COPTIC TRADITIONS FADED AWAY. THE COPTIC LANGUAGE, FOR INSTANCE. IT WAS BANNED FROM PUBLIC USE IN EGYPT. CHRISTIANS WERE FORCED TO SPEAK ARABIC INSTEAD. TODAY, THE ONLY PLACE YOU'LL HEAR COPTIC SPOKEN IS IN THE CHURCH. MANY IMMIGRANTS THOUGHT THEY LEFT DISCRIMINATION BEHIND WHEN THEY CAME TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT THEN CAME SEPTEMBER 11.

FR. ANTONIOUS HENEIN>> EVEN SOME PEOPLE ARE SUGGESTING THAT I STOP WEARING MY HAT OR MY GARMENT BECAUSE IT'S IN A WAY SIMILAR TO SOME OF THE IRANIAN MUSLIMS AND SO FORTH. WELL, IT NEEDS SOME COURAGE AND SOME STRENGTH TO ENDURE AND TO KEEP GOING.

GAY YEE>> ADEL KARAS' MURDER DEEPENED CONCERNS EVEN MORE.

AKRAM AWAD>> I THINK IT SORT OF SOBERS US UP. WE, AS A COMMUNITY, I THINK PROBABLY FELT THAT WE WERE IMMUNE. YOU KNOW, BEING IN AMERICA, WE CAN WORSHIP AND NOBODY'S REALLY GOING TO BOTHER US, AND THAT'S REALLY BEEN THE CASE FOR THREE DECADES. BUT NOW THIS IS STARTING TO SETTLE IN THAT WE ARE STILL, ON SOME LEVEL, OUTSIDERS.

GAY YEE>> RECENT STATISTICS INDICATE THE MAJORITY OF MIDDLE EASTERN IMMIGRANTS IN THIS COUNTRY ARE NOT MUSLIMS, BUT CHRISTIANS.

>> ACCORDING TO NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE, TWO-THIRDS OF THE MIDDLE EASTERN IMMIGRANTS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE CHRISTIANS. TWO OUT OF EVERY THREE MIDDLE EASTERN YOU SEE WALKING DOWN THE STREET ARE ACTUALLY CHRISTIANS.

GAY YEE>> BUT COPTIC CHRISTIANS STILL WORRY ABOUT BECOMING TARGETS OF THE ANGER DIRECTED AT FANATICAL MUSLIM TERRORISTS.

AKRAM AWAD>> AND I FEEL LIKE A PART OF ME HAS BEEN SILENCED. I FEEL LIKE A PART OF ME IS ASSUMED TO BE GUILTY BECAUSE I'M EGYPTIAN OR ARABIC AND THAT'S UNFAIR BECAUSE I'M JUST AS AMERICAN AS ANYBODY ELSE WHO'S LIVED HERE FOR GENERATIONS.

GAY YEE>> IN LOS ANGELES, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> GAY JOINS US NOW WITH AN UPDATE ON THIS STORY. IT STILL HAS NOT BEEN CLASSIFIED BY THE L.A. COUNTY SHERIFF’S DEPARTMENT AS A HATE CRIME?

GAY YEE>> NO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO APPREHEND A SUSPECT. SO IT’S STILL AN OPEN CASE, THEY’RE STILL LOOKING FOR SOMEONE AND, UNTIL THEY DETERMINE WHO THAT PERSON IS AND WHY HE OR SHE DID IT, THEY WILL NOT KNOW FOR SURE.

JESS>> NO MONEY WAS TAKEN, SO THAT LEAVES MANY PEOPLE TO PRESUME IT WAS A HATE CRIME.

GAY YEE>> THAT’S CORRECT, THAT’S CORRECT, AND AT THIS POINT THE FBI STILL CONSIDERS IT TO BE A HATE CRIME.

JESS>> CLEARLY, HATE CRIMES ARE ON THE RISE.

GAY YEE>> THEY ARE ON THE RISE. IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY, THEY’VE GONE UP SINCE SEPTEMBER 11 ABOUT ELEVEN PERCENT. IN ORANGE COUNTY, HOWEVER, IT’S GONE UP FORTY PERCENT.

JESS>> WHY THE DIFFERENCE?

GAY YEE>> ORANGE COUNTY HAS A VERY, VERY LARGE MIDDLE EASTERN COMMUNITY AND THEY HAVE ONE OF THE LARGEST MOSQUES IN GARDEN GROVE. ON SEPTEMBER 11, IN FACT, THE DAY THAT THE ATTACKS TOOK PLACE, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT INSTINCTIVELY KNEW TO SURROUND THAT MOSQUE BECAUSE THEY FELT THAT IT WAS IN JEOPARDY.

JESS>> THE LAW AUTHORITIES IN ORANGE COUNTY MAY BE A LITTLE MORE CONSCIOUS OF HATE CRIMES?

GAY YEE>> PERHAPS, PERHAPS, DEFINITELY A GREATER SENSITIVITY TOWARDS IT RIGHT NOW.

JESS>> FORTY PERCENT IN ORANGE COUNTY, ELEVEN PERCENT IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY, WHAT’S THE STATEWIDE?

GAY YEE>> STATEWIDE IS CLOSE TO SIXTEEN PERCENT. THIS IS AT A TIME WHEN HATE CRIMES APPEAR TO BE DIMINISHING AND GOING DOWN. SUDDENLY AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, WE’RE SEEING A RISE.

JESS>> AND AFTER A YEAR PLUS, AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, WE’RE STILL SEEING IT.

GAY YEE>> WE’RE STILL SEEING IT.

JESS>> YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BEGIN DECLINING.

GAY YEE>> NOT AS MUCH. THE REAL SURGE HAPPENED UP UNTIL NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR, BUT IT’S STILL PRESENT. SAD.

JESS>> AND THE LAWS ARE NOT CHANGING? PEOPLES’ ATTITUDES HAVE TO CHANGE.

GAY YEE>> PEOPLES’ ATTITUDES HAVE TO CHANGE, BUT I THINK, AT THAT PERIOD, THERE WAS JUST A SURGE OF ANGER AND SENTIMENT AND PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW WHERE TO TAKE IT PERHAPS. BUT THEY’RE NOT SEEING QUITE THE MAGNITUDE THAT THEY SAW AT THAT TIME. INCIDENTALLY, IN THE KARAS CASE, THERE IS A $30,000 REWARD OUT FOR ANY INFORMATION LEADING TO A SUSPECT AND THAT’S FROM THE FBI AND THE COUNTY.

JESS>> GAY, THANKS VERY MUCH.

MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, IS CALIFORNIA’S TOUGH THREE STRIKES LAW ON ITS WAY OUT? THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES IS ABOUT TO DECIDE WHETHER THE MEASURE IS LOCKING UP THE WRONG PEOPLE.

>> IN 1994, I VOTED FOR THIS LAW. I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE FOR MURDERERS, RAPISTS, KIDNAPPERS. I NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD AFFECT MY SON.

JESS>> TONIGHT WE’RE ABOUT TO TAKE YOU ON A UNIQUE JOURNEY. IT BEGINS IN HONDURAS AND THE DESTINATION IS NORTH CAROLINA. YOU’LL BE FOLLOWING A YOUNG MAN NAMED ENRIQUE. HE IS THE FOCUS OF A SIX-PART SERIES IN THE LOS ANGELES TIMES. IT IS CALLED “ENRIQUE’S JOURNEY” AND IT IS THE STORY OF THE YOUNG MAN’S 12,000 MILE TREK TO FIND HIS MOTHER IN THE UNITED STATES. L.A. TIMES REPORTER, SONIA NAZARIO, WORKED ON THE PROJECT FOR MORE THAN TWO YEARS. SHE JOINS US NOW WITH THE STORY OF “ENRIQUE’S JOURNEY”. A LONG JOURNEY, AND YOU SHARED IT WITH HIM.

SONIA NAZARIO>> YES --

JESS>> -- INCLUDING THE HARDSHIPS?

SONIA NAZARIO>> YES, INCLUDING SOME OF THE HARDSHIPS. I MET UP WITH ENRIQUE ON THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER AND THEN REJOINED HIM IN NORTH CAROLINA, DEBRIEFED HIM FOR A LONG TIME ON HIS STORY AND THEN STARTED IN TEGUCIGALPA AND DID THE JOURNEY STEP BY STEP AS HE DID IT ON TOP OF THE FREIGHT TRAINS.

JESS>> AND MUCH OF IT WAS DONE ON TOP OF FREIGHT TRAINS?

SONIA NAZARIO>> YES. THERE ARE ABOUT 48,000 CHILDREN WHO COME TO THE UNITED STATES UNACCOMPANIED BY THEIR PARENTS FROM CENTRAL AMERICA AND MEXICO. MANY OF THE CENTRAL AMERICAN CHILDREN ARE MAKING THIS JOURNEY BY THE THOUSANDS EACH YEAR ON TOP OF THESE FREIGHT TRAINS. THEY MOSTLY COME TO TRY TO FIND MOTHERS WHO CAME PREVIOUSLY TO THE UNITED STATES AND LEFT THEM BEHIND IN THEIR HOME COUNTRY.

JESS>> THAT IS A FAIRLY TYPICAL STORY WHERE A MOTHER OR FATHER COMES TO THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE MONEY AND SEND MONEY BACK AND ALWAYS THERE WAS THE HOPE OF REUNITING THE FAMILY, BUT AS THE YEARS GO ON, OFTEN IT DOESN’T HAPPEN?

SONIA NAZARIO>> WELL, TRADITIONALLY, WE THOUGHT OF IMMIGRATION MORE AS MEXICAN MEN COMING TO THE U.S. AND THEY GO BACK ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR FOR CHRISTMAS, FOR MOTHER’S DAY, ETC., SO THERE’S LESS OF A PERMANENT SEPARATION THERE IN TERMS OF THE KIDS. THIS IS A DIFFERENT MIGRATION IN THAT THERE ARE WOMEN COMING TO THE U.S., MANY OF THEM FROM CENTRAL AMERICA, SINGLE MOTHERS WHO CHOOSE TO COME HERE AND LEAVE THEIR CHILDREN BEHIND.

THEY HOPE TO PROVIDE A BETTER LIFE FOR THEIR KIDS. THEY THINK THE SEPARATION WILL BE ONE OR TWO YEARS, BUT OFTENTIMES IT STRETCHES INTO FIVE OR TEN YEARS. THE CHILDREN DESPAIR OF EVER SEEING THEIR MOMS AGAIN AND MANY OF THEM SET OUT ON THEIR OWN. THEY ONLY WAY THEY CAN GET TO THE UNITED STATES THROUGH MEXICO ON A VERY DANGEROUS JOURNEY IS ON TOP OF THESE FREIGHT TRAINS.

JESS>> AND HOW OLD WAS ENRIQUE?

SONIA NAZARIO>> ENRIQUE WAS SIXTEEN WHEN HE MADE HIS FIRST ATTEMPT. HE WILL MAKE A TOTAL OF EIGHT ATTEMPTS TO REACH HIS MOTHER OVER THE COURSE OF FOUR MONTHS.

JESS>> BUT HE WAS NOT THE YOUNGEST ON TOP OF THOSE FREIGHT TRAINS?

SONIA NAZARIO>> NO. THE YOUNGEST I HAD HEARD OF WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD WHO MADE THE JOURNEY AND, WHILE I WAS RETRACING IT ALONG WITH THE TIMES PHOTOGRAPHER, DON BARTLETTI, ON TOP OF THE TRAINS IN CHIAPAS, WE ENCOUNTERED A TWELVE-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO WAS COMING TO SAN DIEGO TO TRY TO FIND HIS MOTHER. SO VERY YOUNG KIDS MAKING A VERY, VERY DANGEROUS JOURNEY.

JESS>> AND MUCH OF THE DANGER IN THE JOURNEY IS FROM FELLOW TRAVELERS?

SONIA NAZARIO>> FROM FELLOW TRAVELERS, THERE ARE A LOT OF OBSTACLES THAT THESE KIDS HAVE TO OVERCOME IN TERMS OF MAKING IT THROUGH MEXICO. CHIAPAS IS THE MOST DANGEROUS. IMMIGRANTS CALL IT “THE BEAST”. THEY ENCOUNTER GANGSTERS WHO CONTROL THE TOPS OF THESE TRAINS. THEY HAVE TO CIRCUMVENT CHECKPOINTS THAT ARE SET UP BY THE POLICE AND THOSE CHECKPOINTS OFTEN HAVE MANY BANDITS WHO LIE IN WAIT IN THE TREES FOR THESE IMMIGRANTS AND ROB THEM, BEAT THEM, RAPE THEM. SOME OF THESE KIDS DIE ALONG THE WAY. THEY ALSO ENCOUNTER THE POLICE AND --

JESS>> -- HE WAS JAILED IN CHIAPAS, WAS HE NOT?

SONIA NAZARIO>> YES, HE WAS JAILED AND HE WAS DEPORTED MANY, MANY TIMES AND HE KEPT TRYING AND TRYING TO REACH HIS MOTHER IN THE U.S.

JESS>> THIS IS THE STORY OF DETERMINATION.

SONIA NAZARIO>> IT’S THE STORY OF INCREDIBLE DETERMINATION. THESE KIDS FACE INCREDIBLE ODDS. THEY DON’T EAT FOR DAYS ON END, THEY DRINK FROM PUDDLES BY THE RAILS. MANY OF THEM END UP -- I’VE SEEN KIDS WHO HAD BEEN MUTILATED BY THE TRAINS WHO HAD LOST THEIR LEGS. IT CAN BE VERY TRAGIC.

JESS>> WELL, YOU SHARED SOME OF THE HARDSHIP WITH THEM.

SONIA NAZARIO>> YES. THE PHOTOGRAPHER AND I STARTED IN TEGUCIGALPA, HONDURAS AND DID THIS JOURNEY EXACTLY AS ENRIQUE HAD AND TRIED TO SEE THE SAME THINGS. WE STARTED ON A TRAIN IN CHIAPAS AND WE TOOK A TOTAL OF SEVEN FREIGHT TRAINS RIDING ON TOP OF THE TRAINS THROUGHOUT MOST OF MEXICO JUST AS HE HAD DONE.

JESS>> WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO DO THIS STORY AND WHY ENRIQUE?

SONIA NAZARIO>> ENRIQUE WAS TYPICAL OF THESE KIDS AND HE HAD HAD A VERY TYPICAL STORY. I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO TRY TO CHRONICLE THIS INCREDIBLE JOURNEY THAT THESE KIDS MAKE. OFTENTIMES, WE THINK OF MIGRATION AS MEN AND WE DON’T REALLY LOOK AT THE WOMEN AND WHAT THEY’RE DOING IN TERMS OF COMING HERE AND TRYING TO BETTER THEIR KIDS’ LIVES. ALSO THE HUGE EFFECT THAT THIS IS HAVING ON THESE FAMILIES, THESE SEPARATIONS BETWEEN MOTHERS AND CHILDREN, AND THE EFFECTS THAT IT HAS ON THESE KIDS AND JUST THE DRIVE THAT THESE KIDS HAVE TO SEE THEIR MOTHERS AGAIN. I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE STORY.

JESS>> AND FROM WHAT WE UNDERSTAND, THE DANGER DOES NOT END WHEN THEY REACH THE AMERICAN BORDER.

SONIA NAZARIO>> NO, ALTHOUGH MUCH OF THE DANGER IS IN MEXICO. PEOPLE THINK THAT THE DANGER IN REACHING THE U.S. IS LARGELY CROSSING THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER AND THAT IS DANGEROUS. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DIE TRYING TO DO THAT. BUT THE BIGGEST DANGER REALLY IS GETTING THROUGH CHIAPAS, AT LEAST FOR THE CENTRAL AMERICAN KIDS.

JESS>> CHIAPAS IS ALSO AN AREA OF POLITICAL TURMOIL, AN AREA OF CRIME, BUT THAT’S THE ROUTE THEY MUST TAKE?

SONIA NAZARIO>> IT’S THE ROUTE THAT THEY MUST TAKE IF THEY WANT TO GET THROUGH MEXICO WITH NOTHING IN THEIR POCKETS. MOST OF THESE CHILDREN LEAVE WITH NO MONEY. IT’S QUITE AMAZING. THEY LEAVE WITH THIS SCRAP OF PAPER WITH THEIR MOTHER’S PHONE NUMBER ON IT AND THAT’S ALL THEY HAVE ON THEM.

JESS>> HOW DID THEY EXIST? HOW DID THEY EAT?

SONIA NAZARIO>> THEY BEG FOR FOOD, THEY DON’T EAT FOR DAYS ON END, THEY DRINK WATER FROM ALONGSIDE THE TRACKS. IT’S A VERY DIFFICULT EXISTENCE. IN CHIAPAS, PEOPLE ARE FAIRLY HOSTILE TOWARDS CENTRAL AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS MUCH AS THEY ARE ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITED STATES.

JESS>> EVEN TO CHILDREN?

SONIA NAZARIO>> EVEN TO CHILDREN, ALTHOUGH BEING A CHILD CERTAINLY HELPS.

JESS>> IT’S EASIER FOR A CHILD?

SONIA NAZARIO>> IT’S EASIER IN SOME WAYS FOR A CHILD BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE MORE SYMPATHY TOWARDS YOU, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY’RE NOT VERY WISE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU SHOULD AND SHOULDN’T DO. SOMETIMES THEY TREAT THE TRAINS AS THEIR PERSONAL JUNGLE GYMS AND THEY’LL JUMP FROM ONE CAR TO THE NEXT AND SOMETIMES THEY FALL BETWEEN THE TRAINS AND GET CUT IN HALF.

JESS>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SONIA NAZARIO. THE SIX-PART SERIES CALLED “ENRIQUE’S JOURNEY” BEGINS IN THIS SUNDAY’S LOS ANGELES TIMES.

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JESS>> IT’S THE NUMBER ONE MOVIE AT A THEATER NEAR YOU, BUT “BARBERSHOP” IS NO FAVORITE OF THE REVERENDS JESSE JACKSON AND AL SHARPTON. IT’S WRITTEN, PRODUCED, ACTED AND DIRECTED BY AFRICAN-AMERICAN FILMMAKERS, BUT JACKSON AND OTHERS SAY THE COMEDY ISN’T FUNNY. THEY’RE ANGRY ABOUT A SCENE THAT POKES FUN AT SOME WELL-KNOWN AFRICAN-AMERICAN FIGURES AND HERE’S THE SCENE THAT LAUNCHED A NEW BATTLE OVER POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS JOHN RIDLEY. HE’S A NOVELIST AND SCREENWRITER AND HE’S HAD A BRUSH OR TWO HIMSELF WITH PEOPLE WHO TOOK ISSUE WITH HIS COMEDY.

JOHN RIDLEY>> (LAUGHTER) ON OCCASION.

JESS>> “BARBERSHOP” IS A BIG HIT NOT JUST WITH AFRICAN-AMERICAN AUDIENCES, BUT WITH THE GENERAL AUDIENCE.

JOHN RIDLEY>> IT’S WHAT HOLLYWOOD HOPES FOR. IT’S A CROSS-OVER HIT. YOU GET ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, DIFFERENT AGES GOING AND ENJOYING THE MOVIE AS THEY SHOULD.

JESS>> JESSE JACKSON SAID HE HAD NOT SEEN IT.

JOHN RIDLEY>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, THAT’S ALWAYS WHAT YOU WANT, WHEN SOMEBODY ATTACKS YOUR WORK, FOR THEM TO ADMIT THAT THEY HAVEN’T EVEN SEEN IT. SO RIGHT THERE, IT’S A LITTLE SUSPECT TO WONDER WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT. CERTAINLY THE CLIP IS AVAILABLE AND HE COULD HAVE SEEN IT, BUT TO NOT SEE SOMETHING IN THE CONTEXT, I DON’T KNOW WHY HE’S ATTACKING IT.

JESS>> HOW DID YOU REACT WHEN THEY ATTACKED YOUR WORK?

JOHN RIDLEY>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT’S ALWAYS INTERESTING WHEN PEOPLE ATTACK YOUR WORK WHEN MOST OF WHAT YOU’RE TRYING TO DO IS REALLY JUST INSPIRE CONSERVATION AND GET PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT’S GOING ON IN THE COMMUNITY AND GET DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. I MEAN, IN THIS CLIP WE SAW FROM “BARBERSHOP”, YOU HAVE AN INDIVIDUAL WHO’S TALKING ABOUT ROSA PARKS, BUT HE’S ALSO TALKING ABOUT RODNEY KING, HE’S TALKING ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON, GIVING A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW THAN A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT EXPECT A BLACK PERSON TO GIVE.

THEN YOU HAVE ANOTHER CHARACTER WHO’S SAYING, WELL, WAIT A SECOND, YOU SHOULDN’T TALK ABOUT ROSA PARKS LIKE THAT. THEN THE CHARACTER COMES BACK AND SAYS, BUT THIS IS SOMEPLACE WHERE WE CAN TALK AND WE CAN OFFER DIFFERENT IDEAS AND DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. I THINK THAT’S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE WHO DON’T SPEND A LOT OF TIME AROUND BLACK PEOPLE, LET ALONE A BLACK BARBERSHOP, TO SEE THAT WE DO HAVE DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW, THAT WE CAN TALK INTELLIGENTLY ABOUT OUR POLITICAL LEADERS OR JOKE ABOUT THEM. CERTAINLY WHEN JAY LENO JOKES ABOUT BILL CLINTON OR THE KENNEDY’S, NOBODY SAYS, OH, MY GOSH, HE’S BRINGING DOWN THE WHITE RACE. SO WHY SHOULD IT BE ANY DIFFERENT FOR US? WHY CAN’T WE JOKE ABOUT OUR LEADERS?

JESS>> JESSE JACKSON SAID THAT YOU WOULDN’T ALLOW THIS KIND OF JOKING ABOUT GOLDA MEIR.

JOHN RIDLEY>> WELL, I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW IF IN ISRAEL THEY DON’T HAVE POLITICAL COMMENTARY OR THEY DON’T HAVE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ARIEL SHARON NOW OR HIS POLICIES OR THINGS LIKE THAT. SO I DON’T THINK IT’S CORRECT TO SAY THAT YOU WOULDN’T HAVE THAT KIND OF JOKING ABOUT SOMEBODY. CERTAINLY YOU CAN GET NEWSPAPERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THEY HAVE POLITICAL COMMENTARY OR POLITICAL SATIRE, SO I THINK IT’S INCORRECT THAT A CITY WOULDN’T HAVE JOKING ABOUT DIFFERENT LEADERS FROM DIFFERENT NATIONS.

JESS>> I’D BE SURPRISED TO THINK THAT “SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE” HADN’T JOKED ABOUT GOLDA MIER.

JOHN RIDLEY>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE SO MANY -- YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE MEL BROOKS WHEN HE DID “THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, PART ONE”. HE HAD THINGS LIKE HITLER ON ICE. NOW THERE WOULD BE ANY NUMBER OF JEWS WHO WENT THROUGH THE HOLOCAUST WHO SAY THAT THIS IS NOT FUNNY, THIS WAS A VERY SERIOUS THING AND, TO MAKE FUN OF IT, IT’S NOT RIGHT. BUT HERE’S SOMEONE WHO IS JEWISH AND SAYING, NO, WE SHOULD BE BELITTLING THESE THINGS. AGAIN, WITH “THE PRODUCERS” WHEN HE MAKES FUN OF HITLER AND GAYS AND JEWS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. PEOPLE MAY LOOK AT IT AND MAY BE OFFENDED, BUT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE SAYING HERE ARE SO-CALLED SACRED COWS, WE’RE HAVING FUN WITH IT. THAT’S WHAT COMEDY IS ABOUT.

JESS>> ARE WE GROWING THROUGH THIS PERIOD? ARE WE GETTING MORE UNDERSTANDING OR IS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GOING TO CRIPPLE US? (LAUGHTER)

JOHN RIDLEY>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, I’VE NEVER BEEN A FAN OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BECAUSE, TO ME, IT’S JUST CENSORSHIP FROM THE LEFT. THERE ARE CERTAINLY THINGS THAT YOU CAN TALK ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE UPSET. I THINK THERE IS A LEVEL OF COMEDY THAT IS SO MEAN-SPIRITED THAT THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT IT THAT RAISES THE LEVEL OF AWARENESS. BUT, AGAIN, YOU LOOK AT THIS CLIP AND YOU DON’T SEE PEOPLE JUST OUT AND OUT ATTACKING AN INDIVIDUAL OR GOING AFTER AN INDIVIDUAL FOR NO GOOD REASON. IT’S ABOUT DIALOG. EVEN THE CHARACTER WHO’S MAKING THESE COMMENTS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS PERSON, SO IT’S HARD TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. SO I THINK YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT EVERY INSTANCE INDIVIDUALLY AND NOT JUST SAY, WELL, HERE’S SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN’T TALK ABOUT. YOU CAN’T TALK ABOUT ROSA PARKS OR DR. KING OR THINGS LIKE THAT.

JESS>> HERE’S ONE WE CAN TALK ABOUT. LET’S LOOK AT A CLIP FROM “UNDERCOVER BROTHER”.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> YOU GOT SOME CRITICISM OVER THAT TOO, DIDN’T YOU?

JOHN RIDLEY>> WE DID. I MEAN, “UNDERCOVER BROTHER” IS A MOVIE THAT I WROTE AND PRODUCED, BUT THE IDEA, AGAIN, IS TO TAKE A POLITICAL SITUATION OR RACIAL SITUATION AND TURN IT ON ITS EAR WHERE YOU HAVE A WHITE GUY COMING IN AS THE MINORITY BUT BEING SUPPORTED BY THINGS LIKE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND GET A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON IT. AGAIN, SOME PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED BY IT. I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. IF IT’S ABOUT POLITICS, IF IT’S ABOUT RACE, IF IT’S ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON AND YOU’RE OFFENDING PEOPLES’ SENSIBILITIES ON AN INTELLECTUAL LEVEL, THEN I SEE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. SOME PEOPLE MAY DISAGREE, BUT THAT’S THE POINT. IT’S TO GET PEOPLE TO DISAGREE, TO GET PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT IT, TO GET PEOPLE TO ARGUE ABOUT IT.

JESS>> “BARBERSHOP” RAISED IT TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL BECAUSE THE LOS ANGELES TIMES DEVOTED AN EDITORIAL TO THIS ISSUE YESTERDAY.

JOHN RIDLEY>> WELL, ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT “BARBERSHOP” -- WITH “UNDERCOVER BROTHER” WE WERE GOING AFTER SACRED COWS, SO TO SPEAK, WITH BLACKS AND WHITES. WHAT’S INTERESTING ABOUT “BARBERSHOP” IS THAT IT MAKES IT A LITTLE MORE INSULAR IN THAT IT’S BLACK PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT BLACK POLITICS WHICH EXPOSES, I THINK, A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF ARGUMENT FOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING THIS AND FOR BLACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HAD TO CHALLENGE OURSELVES IN TERMS OF, WELL, CAN WE JOKE ABOUT DR. KING? CAN WE JOKE ABOUT ROSA PARKS? YOU KNOW, DO I REALLY THINK O.J. DID IT OR NOT? THINGS LIKE THAT. THAT’S WHAT I THINK, THOUGH, IS REALLY INTERESTING ABOUT THIS FILM. IT GOES AFTER SOMETHING THAT’S A LITTLE NEW AND A LITTLE DIFFERENT, BUT ALSO EXPOSES IT TO A NEW AUDIENCE THAT, AS BLACK PEOPLE, WE DON’T ALL THINK ALIKE.

JESS>> AND THE TIMES, TO JACKSON AND SHARPTON, SAID SIMPLY, “GET A LIFE.” (LAUGHTER)

JOHN RIDLEY>> (LAUGHTER) I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE WITH THAT.

JESS>> JOHN RIDLEY, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

JOHN RIDLEY>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> AND THAT IS TONIGHT’S PROGRAM. GO TO KCET.ORG FOR AUDIO OF PAST SHOWS AND ALSO PREVIEWS OF UPCOMING STORIES. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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