10/14/02

LC021014

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> LATINOS COULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THIS YEAR’S RACE FOR GOVERNOR AND YOU SHOULD SEE HOW THE CANDIDATES ARE REACHING OUT.

[FILM CLIP]

ANTONIO GONZALEZ>> THERE IS THIS NEW CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IN TERMS OF CAMPAIGNING TO LATINO VOTERS. THERE’S A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO ACCESS THEM.

VAL>> HE’S A VETERAN JOURNALIST WHO HAS A UNIQUE VIEW OF WORLD AFFAIRS AND TONIGHT DAVID HALBERSTAM IS HERE TO WEIGH IN ON TWO SUBJECTS THAT COULDN’T BE MORE TIMELY: WAR AND THE WHITE HOUSE.

JESS>> AND THEN A STORY ABOUT RELIGIOUS FAITH AND HOW IT’S BEEN PUT TO THE TEST WHEN PARENTS LEARN THEY HAVE A GAY CHILD. WE’LL PREVIEW A NEW FILM ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANS AND THE GAY LIFESTYLE THEY NEVER DREAMED THEY’D HAVE TO ACCEPT.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I’M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I’M JESS MARLOW. WE’VE ALL SEEN THE ATTACK ADS IN THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA. GRAY DAVIS ALONE IS SAID TO BE SPENDING A MILLION DOLLARS A WEEK ON CAMPAIGN COMMERCIALS AND, IF BILL SIMON’S CAMPAIGN HAD THE MONEY, HE MIGHT SPEND THE SAME.

VAL>> BUT THERE’S A WHOLE OTHER CAMPAIGN BEING WAGED ON THE STATE AIRWAVES THAT MANY VOTERS NEVER SEE AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, SOME PEOPLE MAY BE SURPRISED AT WHAT THE CANDIDATES ARE SAYING AND WHAT THEY’RE PROMISING.

GAY YEE>> SPANISH LANGUAGE POLITICAL COMMERCIALS HAVE COME OF AGE. A FEW YEARS AGO, THEY WERE DIRECT TRANSLATIONS OF ENGLISH VERSIONS AND OFTEN NOT VERY GOOD ONES. TODAY GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS’S ADS FEATURE POPULAR LATINO POLITICIANS LIKE ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA. THIS ONE TOUTS A LAW DAVIS SIGNED LAST YEAR ALLOWING UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS TO PAY THE SAME TUITION AS LEGAL RESIDENTS AT STATE COLLEGES.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> IT’S NOT A MESSAGE YOU’LL SEE ON MAINSTREAM TELEVISION BECAUSE IT’S NOT POPULAR WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC, BUT YOU’LL SEE IT ON SPANISH TV. REPUBLICAN CHALLENGER, BILL SIMON, IS ALSO RUNNING ADS CRAFTED TO MAKE HIM LOOK GOOD TO THE STATE’S ELEVEN MILLION LATINOS. SIMON STRESSES CULTURAL VALUES SUCH AS FAMILY AND EDUCATION.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> IT’S A CLEAR INDICATION THAT BOTH SIDES ARE ENTICED BY THE GROWTH AMONG LATINO VOTERS IN THE PAST DECADE, FROM 550,000 IN 1990 TO 2.5 MILLION TODAY, AND EXPERTS SAY LATINOS VOTE EVEN WHEN OTHERS DON’T.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ>> EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE EXPECTS THIS TO BE A VERY LOW TURNOUT ELECTION, THAT LOW TURNOUT WILL BE MOSTLY AMONG NON-LATINO VOTERS.

GAY YEE>> ANTONIO GONZALEZ HEADS THE WILLIAM C. VALASQUEZ INSTITUTE, A RESEARCH GROUP THAT STUDIES LATINO POLITICS. HE SAYS LATINO VOTERS CAN BE TOUGH FOR POLITICIANS TO TARGET.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ>> AND THE TRUTH IS THAT LATINOS ARE LIBERAL ON SOME THINGS, CONSERVATIVE ON SOME THINGS.

GAY YEE>> GONZALEZ SAYS GOVERNOR DAVIS MAY HAVE MISJUDGED LATINO REACTION. ONE EXAMPLE, DAVIS VETOED A BILL THAT WOULD LET IMMIGRANTS APPLY FOR A DRIVER’S LICENSE BEFORE THEY ESTABLISH LEGAL RESIDENCY. IT ANGERED STATE SENATOR MARTHA ESCUTIA. SHE SAYS THE LEGISLATURE’S DEMOCRATIC LATINO CAUCUS WON’T ENDORSE DAVIS FOR RE-ELECTION.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ>> WE’VE SEEN THE LATINO DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATIVE CAUCUS WITHDRAW ITS ENDORSEMENT FROM GOVERNOR DAVIS. IT’S REALLY AN UNPRECEDENTED, UNPRECEDENTED ACTION. THAT WOULD BE EQUIVALENT TO FIFTY DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND THE SENATE DE-ENDORSING AL GORE IN 2000.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> THE GOVERNOR’S VETO ALSO ANGERED MANY LATINO VOTERS. FOUR THOUSAND PEOPLE PROTESTED AT A RALLY SPONSORED BY LATINO TALK RADIO NETWORK, RADIO UNICA. THEY DISPLAYED A BANNER FULL OF SIGNATURES CALLING DAVIS A TRAIDOR, SPANISH FOR TRAITOR.

BILL JENKINS>> THERE’S NO QUESTION BUT THAT THE VOTING PUBLIC AND THE PUBLIC IN GENERAL AMONG THE IMMIGRANT POPULATION FEELS VERY BETRAYED BY THIS TURNABOUT ON THE GOVERNOR’S PART.

GAY YEE>> THERE WAS A TIME THE WORD REPUBLICAN WAS CONSIDERED A DIRTY WORD IN MANY LATINO NEIGHBORHOODS, BUT TIMES MAY BE CHANGING. MARY GEORGE IS IN CHARGE OF DIVERSITY FOR THE SIMON CAMPAIGN. SHE IS LATINA AND WAS A DEMOCRAT HERSELF UNTIL TWELVE YEARS AGO.

MARY GEORGE>> I DON’T FEEL THAT I LEFT THE DEMOCRATS. I FEEL THAT THEY LEFT ME BECAUSE THEY’RE LEANING TOO MUCH TO THE LEFT.

GAY YEE>> GEORGE IS HOPING TO USE THE DAVIS VETO TO BUILD LATINO SUPPORT FOR SIMON. VOLUNTEERS ARE CANVASSING LATINO NEIGHBORHOODS FROM LA HABRA TO WOODLAND HILLS, PLASTERING THEM WITH FLYERS AND DOOR-HANGERS. SHE SAYS A LATINO VOTE IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS.

MARY GEORGE>> WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR WHOEVER WE WANT AND FOR WHOEVER IS DOING THE BEST FOR OUR COMMUNITY.

GAY YEE>> BUT MANY LATINOS MAY HAVE DIFFICULTY CROSSING OVER TO REPUBLICAN RANKS. AFTER ALL, THIS IS THE PARTY THAT HELPED PASS SUCH ANTI-IMMIGRANT LEGISLATION AS PROPOSITION 187. SOME LATINO VOTERS ARE CONSIDERING GOING GREEN, CASTING A PROTEST VOTE IN FAVOR OF GREEN PARTY CANDIDATE, PETER CAMEJO, A LATINO OF VENEZUELAN DESCENT. POLITICAL WATCHERS LIKE ANTONIO GONZALEZ SAY THE COMING WEEKS COULD BE CRUCIAL.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ>> OVER THE NEXT FOUR WEEKS, LATINOS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND SAY, YOU KNOW, HERE ARE MY CHOICES. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO? THIS IS COMPLICATED MATH TO WORK OUT. RIGHT NOW, LATINOS ARE ANGRY.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS VICTOR GRIEGO. HE’S A POLITICAL ORGANIZER IN LOS ANGELES AND HE’S VERY FAMILIAR WITH HOW THE MAJOR CANDIDATES TRY TO COURT LATINO VOTERS. LOOKING AT THE CURRENT RACE, IS IT GOING TO WORK AND FOR WHOM?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> WELL, LET’S HOPE THE COURTING GETS PEOPLE TO VOTE. LET’S HOPE LATINOS APPRECIATE THE ATTENTION, THE EDUCATION AND THE COMMUNICATION AND THAT THE TURNOUT IS A GOOD TURNOUT FOR LATINOS.

JESS>> THEY WOULDN’T REGARD ANY OF IT AS BEING PANDERING OR CONDESCENDING?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> NOT AT ALL. I THINK COMMUNICATION TO VOTERS, NO MATTER IF IT’S LATINOS, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, ASIANS, IS A GOOD THING AND IT’S ABOUT TIME THAT YOU SEE THAT IT’S TARGETED TO LATINOS.

VAL>> HOW MUCH IMPACT DO YOU THINK IT WILL HAVE THAT THE LATINO CAUCUS’S DECISION IN SACRAMENTO TO WITHDRAW THEIR ENDORSEMENT OF GOVERNOR DAVIS BECAUSE HE DIDN’T SUPPORT DRIVER’S LICENSES FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? HOW MUCH IMPACT WILL THAT MOVE HAVE ON THE LATINO VOTE IN GENERAL?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> I THINK IT WILL HAVE IMPACT. I MEAN, THESE LEGISLATORS ARE ELECTED BY PREDOMINANTLY LATINO COMMUNITIES. THERE ARE A FEW THAT ARE IN MARGINAL DISTRICTS WHERE THERE AREN’T AS MANY LATINO VOTERS, BUT IF YOU LOOK IN THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES, THERE ARE TREMENDOUS LATINO VOTES AND THEY LOOK FOR ENDORSEMENTS. THEY LOOK AT WHO’S SUGGESTING WHAT.

JESS>> WOULD THAT NEGATIVE BE PERHAPS COUNTER-BALANCED BY THE POLICY WHEN HE VOTED FOR FARM WORKERS’ RIGHTS?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, I THINK VOTERS ARE VERY AWARE OF WHAT GOES ON. THEY’RE WATCHING PROGRAMS LIKE YOURSELF, THEY READ THE NEWSPAPER AND SO THEY’RE GOING TO BALANCE IT. BUT WILL IT HAVE AN IMPACT? ABSOLUTELY. WILL THE FARM WORKER BILL HAVE AN IMPACT? ABSOLUTELY. SO IT WAS A VERY CALCULATED MOVE ON THE GOVERNOR, I’M SURE.

VAL>> NOW THERE IS A BIG DISCREPANCY, HOWEVER, IN JUST THE PURE NUMBER OF LATINOS AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY REGISTERED AND, OF THOSE WHO ARE REGISTERED, THOSE WHO ACTUALLY VOTE. SO WHAT CAN WE REALLY EXPECT THE IMPACT TO BE, DO YOU THINK, IN THIS ELECTION?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> WELL, IT’S GOING TO BE IN PROPORTION TO WHAT THE TURNOUT IS, SO DEPENDING ON HOW MANY PEOPLE COME OUT AND HOW MANY LATINOS COME OUT, WE’LL SEE HOW --

VAL>> -- BUT HAVE THEY DONE ESTIMATES LIKE THEY EXPECT THE LATINO VOTE TO BE, WHAT, A QUARTER OR A THIRD OR A HALF OR A TENTH?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> WELL, THEY HAVE AND, ONCE AGAIN, DEPENDING ON WHAT THE EVENTUAL TURNOUT IS, IF LATINOS VOTE AT THAT LEVEL, THE PROPORTIONATE LEVEL OF OTHER VOTERS, THEN WE CAN HAVE AN IMPACT. IF WE’RE LESS, THEN WE’RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT MUCH IMPACT. BUT TRADITIONALLY, THE LAST FOUR TO SIX YEARS, WE’VE HAD TREMENDOUS IMPACT. YOU’VE SEEN THE TURNOUT, YOU KNOW, INCREASE EVERY STATEWIDE ELECTION.

JESS>> LOOKING AT THE COMMERCIALS IN SPANISH, IT’S INTERESTING WHERE THEY’RE PLACED. IF YOU WERE HAVING TO PLACE THEM, WHAT WOULD YOU LOOK FOR?

VICTOR GRIEGO>> IN TERMS OF THE --

JESS>> -- THE AUDIENCE YOU’RE SEEKING.

VICTOR GRIEGO>> WELL, YOU GO TO WHERE WHO’S GOING TO COME OUT, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE STATEWIDE OFFICE HOLDERS NOW AND CHALLENGERS KNOW THAT LATINOS ARE TURNING OUT IN GREATER NUMBERS, SO THEY’RE TARGETING THE INNER CITIES, THEY’RE TARGETING THE OLDER VOTERS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THESE ARE THE FOLKS WHO’LL BE COMING OUT.

JESS>> THE KNOCK USED TO BE THAT EVERYBODY PRESUMED THAT THE LATINO VOTE WAS A DEMOCRATIC VOTE.

VICTOR GRIEGO>> THAT’S RIGHT.

JESS>> IT’S NOT A MONOLITH.

VICTOR GRIEGO>> NOT AT ALL. I MEAN, YOU SEE MORE REPUBLICANS NOW. I THINK CAMEJO IS DOING A GREAT JOB IN TERMS OF ISSUES, SO I THINK LATINO VOTERS, LIKE ALL VOTERS, ARE VERY AWARE AND VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEIR CHILDREN. THAT’S WHAT VOTING IS ALL ABOUT. IT’S ABOUT TOMORROW.

JESS>> WOULD A CAMEJO VOTE NOT BE A PROTEST VOTE? THERE ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO VOTE FOR NONE OF THE ABOVE.

VICTOR GRIEGO>> SOME PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THAT, PARTICULARLY LATINOS, BECAUSE HE’S LATINO. SO THEY’RE GOING TO SAY, WELL, WE’RE NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR SIMON, SO LET’S VOTE HERE. IT’S A VERY GOOD PROTEST VOTE, YOU WOULD THINK.

VAL>> SO WE’LL WATCH. THEY HAVE SOME SWING POWERS. WE’LL WATCH ON ELECTION DAY. VICTOR GRIEGO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN. WE APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHTS.

VICTOR GRIEGO>> THANK YOU. YOU’RE WELCOME.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, THEY ARE DRIVEN TO ACHIEVE ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE, BUT ARE THESE STUDENTS TRYING TOO HARD TO BE PERFECT?

>> EVER SINCE THE FOURTH GRADE, I’VE WANTED TO GO TO THE UNITED STATES MILITARY ACADEMY AT WEST POINT, SO I WANT TO GET A REALLY GOOD SCORE ON MY SATS BECAUSE I KNOW THAT’S A VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT IN THE WHOLE APPLICATION PROCESS.

JESS>> WHEN IT COMES TO WRITING ABOUT WAR AND THE PRESIDENCY, THERE MAY BE NO GREATER EXPERT IN AMERICA TODAY THAN DAVID HALBERSTAM. HE’S A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNER EARNING THAT HONOR FOR HIS COVERAGE OF VIETNAM FROM THE FRONT LINES AND, IN THE YEARS SINCE, HE’S BEEN A KEEN OBSERVER OF WORLD AFFAIRS.

VAL>> HALBERSTAM’S LATEST BOOK COMES AS THE UNITED STATES MAY BE ON THE VERGE OF ANOTHER CONFLICT, THIS TIME WITH IRAQ. THE BOOK IS CALLED “WAR IN A TIME OF PEACE: BUSH, CLINTON AND THE GENERALS” AND WE ARE VERY PLEASED THAT AUTHOR DAVID HALBERSTAM IS WITH US TONIGHT. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> NICE TO BE WITH YOU.

JESS>> WHEN THIS BOOK WAS PUBLISHED A YEAR OR SO AGO, WE WEREN’T QUITE THIS CLOSE TO WAR IN THAT TIME OF PEACE, BUT YOUR EPILOGUE IN THIS EDITION BRINGS IT UP TO DATE.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WE JUST HAD SUFFERED SEPTEMBER 11 AND I HAD WRITTEN IN THERE -- THE LAST SENTENCE PRACTICALLY IN THE BOOK WAS THAT THE GREAT THREAT TO AMERICA REALLY WAS NOT FROM SOME ROGUE NATION WITH ATOMIC WEAPONS, BUT WAS FROM A TERRORIST COMING INTO AN AMERICAN CITY WITH A PRIMITIVE ATOMIC WEAPON IN A CARDBOARD SUITCASE --

JESS>> -- SADLY, YOU WERE RIGHT ON TARGET.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> I’M AFRAID, YES. I THINK THERE WAS A SENSE THAT THIS WAS THE GREAT NEW PROBLEM IN THE WORLD.

VAL>> AND YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT NOT TO PRESCIENCE, BUT AS YOU SAID --

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> -- COMMON SENSE, YES.

VAL>> COMMON SENSE.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> IT’S BEEN COMING FOR TWENTY YEARS AND YOU KNOW THAT THE IMMUNITIES, THE INVULNERABLE QUALITY OF THIS COUNTRY FOR SO LONG, HAD ENDED, THAT THE WORLD HAD SHRUNK, THE TERRORISTS WHO HAD BEEN SO INCOMPETENT IN THE FIRST WORLD TRADE CENTER STRIKE WERE GOING TO GET THERE GAME UP TO A SKILL AND THAT WE WERE THE TARGET, AND WE ARE THE TARGET. WE’RE THE RICHEST, MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD. IF THEY CAN DENT OUR INSTINCT FOR INTERNATIONALISM, IF THEY CAN KEEP US FROM BEING ACTIVE PLAYERS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE ABILITY OF PEOPLE LIKE THE AL QAEDA TO TOPPLE WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE MODERATE REGIMES, TO INTIMIDATE COUNTRIES IN EUROPE, IS GOING TO BE QUITE EXTRAORDINARY.

JESS>> AND THERE IS VERY LITTLE WAY TO REALLY DEFEND IT AGAINST THE KIND OF TERRORISM WE’VE EXPERIENCED.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> NOT IN AN OPEN SOCIETY LIKE OURS. I THINK WE CAN GRIND THEM DOWN. I THINK WE CAN -- A BIG COUNTRY LIKE OURS, 280 MILLION, WE’RE GOING TO TAKE, I THINK, SOME ADDITIONAL HITS. BUT I THINK WE CAN GRIND THEM DOWN WITH HIGH-TECH KNOWLEDGE, HIT THEIR CELLS, GET ONTO THEIR MONEY, CHECK THEIR PASSPORTS, BEGIN SLOWLY SYSTEMATICALLY TO MAKE IT HARDER, TO BREAK DOWN THE LITTLE PLAYGROUNDS THEY’VE HAD IN EUROPE, PARTICULARLY IN SOME OF THE GERMAN CITIES WHERE THEY REALLY WERE RUNNING FREE AND WERE PRACTICALLY ON VACATION. I THINK WE CAN BE MUCH, MUCH TOUGHER.

VAL>> YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT THE CROSS-CURRENTS THAT HAVE GROWN THROUGH AMERICAN HISTORY, ISOLATIONISM VERSUS INTERNATIONALISM. IT’S ALWAYS SORT OF BEEN SCHIZOPHRENIC IN OUR HISTORY. HOW DO YOU SEE THAT CONFLICT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DISCUSSION ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED IN IRAQ AND ATTACKING IT?

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WELL, IRAQ IS REALLY A DEFENSIVE MEASURE. I MEAN, IT’S NOT LIKE WE’RE REALLY GOING TO BE MORE ENGAGED WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD. BUT THERE IS A SENSE THAT IRAQ, JUST LIKE THE AL QAEDA IS A THREAT, HERE’S SADDAM HUSSEIN WHO IS A ROGUE HEAD OF STATE OUTSIDE THE FAMILY OF NATIONS WHO HAS USED WEAPONS GENOCIDALLY AGAINST HIS NEIGHBORS, AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE, AGAINST THE KURDS, AND OBVIOUSLY HAS THE MONEY TO BUY TECHNOLOGY AND THE POSSIBLE WILL TO DO IT. OUR INTEREST IN THAT IS NOT REALLY INTERNATIONALISM. IT IS AN IMMEDIATE ATTEMPT TO STOP A THREAT.

I’M NOT SURE THAT WE HAVE BECOME DRAMATICALLY MORE INTERNATIONALISTS SINCE SEPTEMBER 11 AND I THINK QUITE THE REVERSE. I THINK THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION CAME IN AS SORT OF UNILATERALIST. IT WAS MOMENTARILY MULTI-LATERAL. IT MAY BE, AS SOMEONE SAYS, NOW THE SWEDISH FOREIGN MINISTER WHO SAID “MINI-LATERAL”. BUT OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS A REALLY SERIOUS DEBATE GOING ON WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION ITSELF ON WHAT TO DO ABOUT SADDAM HUSSEIN AND, PARTICULARLY, IS IT GOING TO BE MULTI-LATERAL OR ARE WE GOING TO BE OUT THERE ALONE? AND ALSO, WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF PRIORITY?

JESS>> YOU’VE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT WE ELECTED GEORGE W. BUSH IN PART BECAUSE HE WAS NOT AN INTERNATIONALIST.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WELL, I THINK WHAT’S INTERESTING WAS THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT IN THE DEBATES IN 2000, WE RARELY HAD A CANDIDATE WITH THAT MUCH EXPERIENCE. HE’D BEEN VICE PRESIDENT EIGHT YEARS, HE’D HAD SERIOUS FOREIGN POLICY ROLES IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, PARTICULARLY DEALING WITH THE RUSSIANS, THE FORMER SOVIET UNION --

JESS>> -- AS YOU POINTED OUT, HE DIDN’T BRING IT UP IN HIS CAMPAIGNS.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> HE HID FROM IT IN HIS OWN DEBATES AS IF HE WENT OUT AND SAID HOW MUCH HE KNEW, IT WOULD BE A BURDEN UPON HIM. SO IN THE DEBATE ON FOREIGN POLICY, HE WAS THERE WITH A YOUNG MAN WHO REALLY HAD ONLY BARELY BEEN GOVERNOR OF TEXAS AND WHO’D NOT TRAVELED AND GORE KEPT SAYING I AGREE WITH THAT. IT WAS REALLY A QUITE APPALLING PERFORMANCE FOR A SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIAL.

JESS>> YOU BLAME PART OF OUR PROBLEM ON THIS MEDIUM, TELEVISION?

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> OH, SURE. NETWORK TELEVISION. THEY’VE ALL BACKED OFF. I MEAN, WHEN I WAS A YOUNG REPORTER OVERSEAS IN THE EARLY 60’S AND THE PEOPLE FROM NBC AND CBS AND EVEN ABC WERE MY COLLEAGUES. IF YOU WERE IN THE CONGO OR IN VIETNAM, YOU HAD PEOPLE WORKING. WHAT HAPPENED IS, THE NETWORKS CHANGED THE PROPRIETARIAL GENERATION CHANGE. THEY BECAME MUCH MORE CORPORATIZED AND ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS RATINGS. SOMEONE, ONE OF THOSE TELEVISION POLLING GROUPS, TOLD THEM THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DON’T CARE ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY, SO THEY STARTED DROPPING THEIR FOREIGN CORRESPONDENTS AND THEY GIVE AMERICA A VERY UNREAL MIRROR OF WHAT THE WORLD IS LIKE. SO WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG, AN ORDINARY AMERICAN WOULD SAY HOW COULD THEY DO THIS TO US?

VAL>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEBATE OVER WHETHER OR NOT TO INVADE IRAQ, ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE LEVEL OF SOPHISTICATION? IS IT AN INTELLIGENT DEBATE? IS IT A THOUGHTFUL DEBATE? OR IS IT A LOT OF RHETORIC?

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WELL, I THINK IT’S SORT OF RATHER STILLBORN SO FAR. I DON’T THINK IT’S PARTICULARLY GOOD. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF DOUBTS OUT THERE AND I THINK THOSE DOUBTS ARE VERY MUCH SHARED BY ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE UNEASY ABOUT THIS. ARE WE GOING TO IMPALE OURSELVES ON A LARGER CONFRONTATION WITH ISLAM INSTEAD OF A SMALL CONFRONTATION WITH VERY SELECT RADICAL TERRORISTS? ARE WE GOING TO SOMEHOW FALL INTO A TRAP THAT’S BEEN SET FOR US? IN FACT, ARE WE GOING TO PUNCH OUR HAND INTO THE LARGEST HORNET’S NEST IN THE WORLD? WHAT IS THE EXIT STRATEGY?

ARE WE GOING TO HAVE THE YOUNG AMERICAN ARMY KIDS, WHITE AND BLACK AND PREDOMINANTLY CHRISTIAN, DOING OCCUPATION DUTY IN BAGHDAD? WILL THIS PUT UNBEARABLE ADDITIONAL PRESSURE ON OUR MOST IMPORTANT ALLY IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM, THE GOVERNMENT IN PAKISTAN? BECAUSE IF THAT GOVERNMENT TUMBLES, THAT’S AN ENORMOUS LOSS IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM BECAUSE IT GIVES A GREAT BASE CAMP TO THE AL QAEDA AND OTHERS. I DON’T THINK THE DEBATE HAS TAKEN PLACE VERY PUBLICLY. I THINK THE PEOPLE IN THE SENATE ARE A LITTLE NERVOUS. IT’S OUT THERE. THE DOUBTS ARE OUT THERE AND THE PRESIDENT, I THINK, IS AWARE THAT HE HAS NOT COMPLETELY MADE THE CASE. BUT IT IS NOT A PARTICULARLY SATISFACTORY DEBATE, I THINK, AT THIS MOMENT.

JESS>> ALSO IN THE UNITED NATIONS?

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL AS I DO, THAT EVENTUALLY YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT SADDAM HUSSEIN. WHETHER IT’S THE MOST IMMEDIATE THING ON THE AGENDA AS THE ADMINISTRATION IS NOW PUSHING IS ONE THING. ANOTHER THING IS, SHOULD YOU DO IT UNILATERALLY, WHICH I WOULD BE LARGELY, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, OPPOSED TO.

VAL>> DAVID HALBERSTAM, WE WANT TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND THANK YOU FOR COMING IN.

DAVID HALBERSTAM>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON. IT WAS VERY NICE OF YOU.

VAL>> YOUR BOOK, AGAIN, “WAR IN A TIME OF PEACE”. THANK YOU.

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VAL>> RELIGIOUS FAMILIES AREN'T THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN BE TORN APART BY THE SOMETIMES HARSH REALITIES OF HAVING A GAY RELATIVE. BUT FOR PARENTS WHO ARE FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANS, IT CAN BE A REAL TEST OF THEIR LOVE AND FAITH.

JESS>> TONIGHT WE'LL PREVIEW A NEW FILM ON THAT VERY SUBJECT AND WE'LL MEET THE FILMMAKER, ARTHUR DONG. HIS DOCUMENTARY LOOKS AT HOW AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY OFTEN RESPONDS TO A LIFESTYLE IT REGARDS AS SINFUL AND IT TAKES US INSIDE A FAMILY STRUGGLE WHERE FAITH IS THE ONLY THING THEY HAVE TO HOLD ON TO. THIS WEEK, VAL AND I SPOKE WITH ARTHUR DONG ABOUT "FAMILY FUNDAMENTALS".

VAL>> ARTHUR DONG, WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES. NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

ARTHUR DONG>> THANK YOU. NICE TO SEE YOU.

JESS>> "FAMILY FUNDAMENTALS". FUNDAMENTALISTS HAVE A REAL DIFFICULT TIME WITH THE MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY WHO TURN OUT TO BE GAY, HUH?

ARTHUR DONG>> RIGHT. IT'S JUST A BASIC CLASH OF PRINCIPLES AND MORAL VALUES THAT --

JESS>> -- TRADITION WAS THAT YOU KEPT SKELETONS IN THE CLOSET, BUT THESE CAME OUT.

ARTHUR DONG>> WELL, NOT ONLY DID THE KIDS COME OUT, BUT THE PARENTS COME OUT AGAINST THEM IN A VERY PUBLIC MANNER. THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE STORY, AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE PARENTS WITH THESE PRINCIPLES. I MEAN, IT'S ALL RIGHT TO KEEP IT AT HOME AT THE DINING ROOM TABLE, MAYBE, BUT TO BRING IT OUT PUBLICLY AND BE ON A SOAPBOX REALLY TO FIGHT AGAINST YOUR OWN CHILD.

VAL>> SO YOU PROFILE ABOUT FOUR ADULT CHILDREN WHO ARE DEALING WITH THIS?

ARTHUR DONG>> YES.

VAL>> TELL US ABOUT THIS.

ARTHUR DONG>> WELL, WE HAVE ONE STORY WHERE IT'S A PENTECOSTAL CHURCH LEADER AND HER DAUGHTER CAME OUT AS LESBIAN. AS A RESULT, SHE STARTED A MINISTRY IN SAN DIEGO TO COMFORT PARENTS WHO BELIEVE THAT THEIR CHILDREN HAVE BECOME HOMOSEXUAL.

VAL>> SO THE MOTHER STARTED A SUPPORT GROUP AMONG SIMILAR PARENTS WHO HAD GAY CHILDREN.

ARTHUR DONG>> AND WITH THE SAME FUNDAMENTALIST VALUES IN TERMS OF SEEING HOMOSEXUALITY AS A MORAL SIN. THEY HOLD CONFERENCES EVERY YEAR AND INVITE PEOPLE FROM NATIONAL ARENAS TO COME AND TALK ABOUT HOW THEY CAN WORK WITH THEIR CHILDREN TO HAVE THEM BECOME HETEROSEXUAL THROUGH THERAPY.

JESS>> THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CONTROVERSIES, ISN'T IT? THE FACT THAT, IN THE MAIN, FUNDAMENTALISTS BELIEVE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ACQUIRED STATE AND CAN BE CORRECTED?

ARTHUR DONG>> YES.

JESS>> BUT PSYCHIATRY SAYS NO?

ARTHUR DONG>> WELL, THAT'S AN ONGOING DEBATE. IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR SEVERAL DECADES NOW. IT GOES BACK AND FORTH. NOW TO ADD PROBLEMS TO THIS FAMILY IS THAT, NOT ONLY DOES SHE HAVE A LESBIAN DAUGHTER, SHE HAS A GAY GRANDSON. SO IT GIVES HER DOUBLE TROUBLE AND ALSO MORE MOTIVATION TO FIGHT ON AHEAD TO SAVE HER CHILD AND HER GRANDSON FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, WHICH IS HER GOAL.

VAL>> YOU ALSO TELL THE FASCINATING STORY OF A YOUNG MAN THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER FROM THE HEADLINES, BRIAN BENNETT. HE WAS AN AIDE TO THEN CONGRESSMAN --

ARTHUR DONG>> -- CONGRESSMAN BOB DORNAN FOR ABOUT TWELVE YEARS. HE WAS HIS CHIEF OF STAFF.

VAL>> AND BOB DORNAN WAS INTENSELY HOMOPHOBIC.

ARTHUR DONG>> I WOULD SAY, ARGUABLY, THE MOST ANTI-GAY POLITICIAN AND CONGRESSMAN THAT WE'VE HAD.

JESS>> CERTAINLY THE MOST VOCAL.

ARTHUR DONG>> YES, VOCAL, AND OUT THERE STOMPING ALL THE TIME. BRIAN KNEW HE WAS GAY, STRUGGLING WITH IT, BUT THOUGHT THAT PERHAPS IT WAS WRONG BECAUSE OF HIS CATHOLIC UPBRINGING.

VAL>> AND HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF THAT STRUGGLE. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE CLIP FROM BRIAN BENNETT FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY "FAMILY FUNDAMENTALS". HERE IT IS.

BRIAN BENNETT>> "GOD ALWAYS KNOWS WHAT I'M DOING, SO THE RELIGIOUS SIDE OF IT HE KNOWS. HE KNOWS EVERY DAY WHAT I'M DOING AND HE KNOWS EVERY DAY WHAT I'M THINKING AND I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR IT ONE DAY. THAT SIDE IS WORKING ON ME PRETTY HARD, BUT THE POLITICAL SIDE IS THE PART THAT I HAD TO DEAL WITH MORE ON A DAILY BASIS. WHAT HAPPENS IF I GET CAUGHT? WHAT DOES THAT DO TO ME? WHAT SCANDAL DOES THAT CREATE FOR DORNAN? YOU'RE TRYING TO ESCAPE FROM YOURSELF AND YOU'RE TRYING TO ESCAPE FROM YOUR OWN FEELINGS AND YOU CAN'T.

I WAS AT HOME WATCHING "CROSSFIRE" AND IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT I SAW ANDREW SULLIVAN DEBATE PATRICK BUCHANAN. ANDREW KEPT SAYING, "PAT, YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR CATHOLIC HISTORY."

PATRICK BUCHANAN>> IS THE VATICAN HOMOPHOBIC AND BIGOTED AS WELL?

ANDREW SULLIVAN>> IN SOME ASPECTS, YES, THEY ARE, AND I HOPE TO GOD THAT EVENTUALLY THEY WILL CHANGE THEIR --

PATRICK BUCHANAN>> -- FOR TWO THOUSAND YEARS, THEY'VE BEEN THIS WAY?

ANDREW SULLIVAN>> NOT FOR TWO THOUSAND YEARS ACTUALLY. FOR THE LAST SIX HUNDRED TO TWELVE HUNDRED YEARS, THEY WERE QUITE TOLERANT OF GAY PEOPLE.

BRIAN BENNETT>> THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I EVER HEARD ANYONE EVER SAY THAT THE CHURCH HAD A TOLERANT ATTITUDE TOWARD HOMOSEXUALITY AND NO ONE EVER TOLD ME."

VAL>> AND HE ACTUALLY GETS TEARY-EYED THERE.

JESS>> THERE'S A MAN TALKING ABOUT GOD KNOWS. AT THAT POINT HE SEEMS TO HAVE BOUGHT INTO THE NOTION THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS SINFUL.

ARTHUR DONG>> WELL, I THINK THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW POWERFUL THIS AUTHORITY FIGURE IS, HOW POWERFUL ARE ALL AUTHORITY FIGURES IN TELLING US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIVES. HE'S NEVER THOUGHT TO QUESTION IT AND EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN PROCESS OF HAVING THEIR OWN EPIPHANIES OF WHAT MOMENTS ARE IMPORTANT FOR THEM. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR BRIAN WHERE HE SAYS YES, AND HE NEEDED THIS SHOW TO TELL HIM. THE POWER OF TV, HERE WE ARE, TO SAY, HEY, QUESTION THIS AUTHORITY.

VAL>> AND THE NEXT BIG TURNING POINT WAS WHEN BRIAN BENNETT BROKE THE NEWS TO CONGRESSMAN DORNAN HIMSELF. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT MOMENT AS TOLD BY BRIAN. HERE IT IS.

BOB DORNAN>> "THEY CHANGED THE WORD HOMOSEXUAL, A MEDICAL WORD, TO GAY, A PUBLIC RELATIONS THING, JUST AS THEY TORTURE AND TWIST THE WHOLE VOCABULARY OF GAY-BASHING, HOMOPHOBE, DISCRIMINATION, INTOLERANT ALL AROUND ANAL AND ORAL SEX FOR COLLEGE KIDS, FRESHMEN AND SOPHOMORES? WHAT IDIOCY IS THIS? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BIGOTRY."

BRIAN BENNETT>> "WE WERE SCHEDULED TO GO TO DINNER. HIS PLANS HAD CHANGED, WHICH REALLY SCREWED ME UP BECAUSE ALL DAY I HAD A KNOT IN MY STOMACH BECAUSE I KNEW I WAS GOING TO TELL HIM. WE GOT INTO THE CAR, DROVE, HIT A RED LIGHT AND I WAS VERY NERVOUS. I SAID TO HIM, "POPPY, YOU MAY NOT BE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS." AND HE SAID, "WELL, WHAT IS IT?" I SAID, "I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I'M GAY." HE LOOKED AT ME AND THE TEARS ROLLING DOWN MY EYES AND HE SAID, "I'VE LOVED YOU LIKE A SON FOR TWENTY YEARS. DID YOU THINK THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE?" THEN HE LEANED OVER AND HE KISSED ME ON THE CHEEK."

VAL>> WOW. DOES THIS MEAN THAT BOB DORNAN CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY BECAUSE SOMEONE SO CLOSE TO HIM TURNED OUT TO BE GAY?

ARTHUR DONG>> WELL, IN PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS, BRIAN WOULD SAY THERE WAS THE HOPE OF THAT HAPPENING, BUT PUBLICLY, DORNAN WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO THAT, ACCORDING TO BRIAN. HOPEFULLY, SOME DAY. IN THE FOLLOW-UP SCENE TO THIS, YOU HEAR A RADIO SHOW WHERE BOB DORNAN DOES TALK ABOUT THAT SAME SCENE AND PRETTY MUCH RIDICULES BRIAN'S INTERPRETATION IN TERMS OF ITS EMOTIONAL VALUE.

VAL>> ARTHUR DONG, ALWAYS INTERESTING TO GET INSIGHT INTO THE GAY COMMUNITY FROM YOUR FILMMAKING. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU.

ARTHUR DONG>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> "FAMILY FUNDAMENTALS" IS PLAYING AT THE MUSIC HALL THEATER ON WILSHIRE IN BEVERLY HILLS THROUGH OCTOBER 17. FOR A LIST OF OTHER UPCOMING SCREENINGS, YOU CAN GO TO THE FILMMAKER'S WEBSITE AT WWW.DEEPFOCUSPRODUCTIONS.COM.

VAL>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN CHECK TRANSCRIPTS OR LISTEN TO RECENT SHOWS ON KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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