10/18/02

LC021018

VAL ZAVALA>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS MARLOW>> FARMERS MARKET HAS SURVIVED THE TEST OF TIME, BUT CAN IT SURVIVE THE GROVE?

CHARLES BRAGG>> WELL, I LIKE IT. I DO. IT’S WONDERFUL. WE WERE A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT THE, YOU KNOW, ALL THE IMPROVEMENTS, YOU KNOW, THAT USUALLY TURN OUT WRONG, BUT IT’S TURNED OUT REALLY GOOD.

VAL>> LAWYER JOKES ARE EASY, BUT THE TRUTH ABOUT ATTORNEYS IS NO LAUGHING MATTER AND TONIGHT COURT TV ANCHOR AND FORMER JUDGE, CATHERINE CRIER, IS HERE TO MAKE HER OWN CASE AGAINST LAWYERS.

JESS>> WHOEVER DREAMED “THE FLINTSTONES” AND “THE SIMPSONS” WOULD WIND UP LIKE THIS? TONIGHT WE’LL FIND OUT HOW A MEXICAN ARTIST IS USING POPULAR CARTOON CHARACTERS TO EXPRESS HIS FRUSTRATION ABOUT AMERICA’S POLICIES ON IMMIGRATION. HIS LOS ANGELES ART EXHIBIT IS BOUND TO RUB SOME PEOPLE THE WRONG WAY. TONIGHT WE’LL FIND OUT WHY HE’S WILLING TO TAKE THAT RISK.

VAL>> THESE STORIES COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I’M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I’M JESS MARLOW. TONIGHT THE STORY OF A LANDMARK WITH A CERTAIN SCRUFFY CHARM AND ITS FANCY NEW NEIGHBOR. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT L.A.’S LEGENDARY FARMERS MARKET AND THE UPSCALE GROVE SHOPPING CENTER WHICH JUST OPENED FOR BUSINESS THIS YEAR. CRITICS SAID THIS WASN’T EXACTLY A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN AND THEY PREDICTED THE OLD FARMERS MARKET WOULD COME OUT THE LOSER.

VAL>> BUT HAS IT REALLY TURNED OUT THAT WAY? TONIGHT GAY YEE HEADS TO THE CORNER OF THIRD AND FAIRFAX TO GET SOME ANSWERS FROM THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW FARMERS MARKET BEST.

GAY YEE>> IN THE MIDST OF TRENDY LOS ANGELES, IT’S A PLACE OF TRADITION. ICE CREAM AT BENNETT’S IS STILL HOMEMADE, PIZZA AT PATSY’S STILL BAKED IN A FIFTY-YEAR-OLD BRICK OVEN BY THE FOLKS WHO HELPED INTRODUCE PIZZA TO ANGELENOS. WELCOME TO FARMERS MARKET AT THIRD AND FAIRFAX.

PAUL MAZURSKY>> WE SEE WHAT WE THINK ARE AMUSING PEOPLE. I DON’T SEE ANY TODAY.

GAY YEE>> MONDAY THROUGH FRIDAY, YOU’LL FIND LEGENDARY MOVIE DIRECTOR, PAUL MAZURSKY, HOLDING COURT WITH HIS BUDDIES OUTSIDE BOB’S DOUGHNUTS AT THE MARKET. FOR OVER THIRTY YEARS, THEY’VE GATHERED AROUND THE SAME TABLE FOR A CUP OF COFFEE AND LAUGHS BEFORE STARTING THEIR DAY.

PAUL MAZURSKY>> WE LOVE IT. WE ALSO HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW THE COFFEE LADY AND THAT ONE OVER THERE AND THE DOUGHNUT GALS. IT’S VERY PLEASANT.

GAY YEE>> BUT IN MARCH, A $160 MILLION SHOPPING CENTER CALLED THE GROVE MOVED IN NEXT DOOR, A STATE OF THE ART OPEN-AIR COMPLEX WITH POSH STORES, RESTAURANTS AND A FOURTEEN-SCREEN MOVIE HOUSE. THE DOUGHNUT TABLE GAVE IT TWO THUMBS DOWN.

PAUL MAZURSKY>> NO, NO, NO, NO. THAT’S YUPPIES, THAT’S YUPPIES.

CHARLES BRAGG>> YEAH, WE THREW A TOURIST IN FRONT OF A BULLDOZER TO STOP THEM, BUT IT DIDN’T WORK (LAUGHTER).

GAY YEE>> SOME PREDICTED DOOM FOR THE MARKET.

FILOMENA D’AMORE>> PEOPLE WERE THINKING THAT, FIRST OF ALL, THE QUAINTNESS OF THE FARMERS MARKET WOULD NO LONGER BE, THAT THE GROVE WOULD TAKE OVER. YOU KNOW, THIS NEW KIND OF OPERATION, AND THEY THOUGHT THE TRAFFIC WOULD BE TERRIBLE.

GAY YEE>> SO WHAT HAPPENED? LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE, THE REAL TEST IS TIME AND IT’S BEEN MONTHS NOW SINCE THIS FANCY NEW NEIGHBOR MOVED IN NEXT DOOR TO THE FARMERS MARKET. DID IT INDEED PROVIDE FRESH BLOOD AND NEW ENERGY OR DID IT JUST PROVIDE A WHOLE LOT MORE GRIDLOCK? FEARS THAT THE GROVE WOULD DRIVE AWAY CUSTOMERS TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG.

FILOMENA D’AMORE>> AND IT’S BROUGHT A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE INTO THE AREA TO EXPERIENCE THE FARMERS MARKET ALSO BECAUSE WE ARE LIKE A FOOD COURT FOR THE GROVE. THEY ONLY HAVE SIT-DOWN RESTAURANTS THERE, SO PEOPLE GO TO THE MOVIES, THEY DON’T WANT TO SIT DOWN FOR A WHILE AND EAT. THEY COME OVER HERE.

MARK PANATIER>> I NOT ONLY THINK THAT THEY’RE BETTER FOR THE MARKET, I THINK THEY’RE BETTER FOR THE COMMUNITY. WE HAVE TAKEN, YOU KNOW, UN-UTILIZED OR UNDER-UTILIZED PROPERTY THAT’S IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO THE MARKET AND CREATED AN ADDITIONAL PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO GO, SEE AND BE SEEN, AND DO THEIR SHOPPING. SO THAT WAS ALWAYS THE DRIVING NEED TO CHANGE THE MARKET. NOT CHANGE THE MARKET, BUT CHANGE THE AREA AROUND THE MARKET SO THAT THE MARKET COULD SURVIVE VIGOROUSLY INTO THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY.

GAY YEE>> STORES AND RESTAURANTS AT THE MARKET ARE EXPANDING TO MEET THE NEW BUSINESS. HUNTINGTON MEATS IS REMODELING AND MOISHE’S MIDDLE EASTERN FOOD IS OPENING A SECOND RESTAURANT IN THE STALL NEXT DOOR.

MOSVES AROYAN>> WE HAVE MORE PEOPLE NOW, MORE CLIENTELE, SO WE HAVE THE SECOND STORE WHICH IS A NEW CONCEPT.

GAY YEE>> BUT PROGRESS CAME AT A PRICE, LIKE TRAFFIC.

HARRY SASSON>> IF I WANT TO GO SOMEWHERE, I HAVE TO SIT IN TRAFFIC FOR FIFTEEN OR TWENTY MINUTES TO GET FROM LA BREA TO FAIRFAX OR, FROM WILSHIRE TO BEVERLY, IT TAKES ME FIFTEEN MINUTES.

GAY YEE>> HARRY SASSON HAS LIVED IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS. SASSON AND THE BEVERLY WILSHIRE HOMES ASSOCIATION IS CONSIDERING A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CITY.

HARRY SASSON>> WE THOUGHT WE HAD A DEAL WITH THE CITY TO PUT UP A FOUR-WAY LEFT-TURN TRAFFIC SIGNAL AND I SEE THEY JUST FINISHED AND IT’S ONLY THREE WAYS, SO IT’S CRAZY. THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION DOES WHAT THEY WANT, THE CITY DOES WHAT THEY WANT, AND IT LEAVES THE NEIGHBORHOOD UP FOR GRABS.

GAY YEE>> DEVELOPER RICK CARUSO SAYS HIS COMPANY HAS SPENT MILLIONS FOR BETTER TRAFFIC CONTROL, BUT SO FAR, THE CITY HAS NOT COME UP WITH THE MATCHING FUNDS.

RICK CARUSO>> SO WHAT WE’RE DOING NOW IS WE’RE HELPING THE CITY FIND FUNDS IN ORDER TO DO THAT BECAUSE, WITHOUT THAT, IF WE CONTRIBUTE OUR MONEY, THE SYSTEM WON’T WORK.

GAY YEE>> IN THE MEANTIME, CARUSO IS ABOUT TO LAUNCH ON A NEW PROJECT NEXT TO THE GLENDALE GALLERIA THAT WILL INCLUDE STORES IN AN OPEN-AIR PARK-LIKE SETTING ALONG WITH HOUSING. CARUSO SAYS EACH OF HIS DEVELOPMENTS IS UNIQUE. FOR THE GROVE, IT WAS A BLENDING WITH THE FARMERS MARKET AND ITS SENSE OF HISTORY.

RICK CARUSO>> IT’S AN EXTENSION OF WHAT THE MARKET HAS BEEN FOR SIXTY-SEVEN YEARS, A GREAT PLACE TO HANG OUT IN LOS ANGELES.

GAY YEE>> LIKE THE MOVIES, SUCCESS DEPENDS ON HOW IT PLAYS IN THE PEANUT GALLERY, AND THE REVIEW FROM MAZURSKY AND FRIENDS ON THE PATIO?

PAUL MAZURSKY>> WE WERE ALL QUITE PARANOID ABOUT WITH THE GROVE COMING IN, THAT THIS WOULDN’T WORK FOR US ANYMORE. IT’S ABSOLUTELY THE SAME.

CHARLES BRAGG>> CRAMP MY STYLE? IT’S NOTHING, BABY. YOU’LL FIND OUT. NOTHING CRAMPS MY STYLE (LAUGHTER).

GAY YEE>> IS TWO THUMBS UP.

JESS>> FARMERS MARKET HAS A HISTORY OF WEATHERING CHANGE. IN FACT, IT HAS OUTLIVED MOST OF ITS NEIGHBORS INCLUDING A FEW DAIRY FARMS, AN OIL RIG OR TWO AND GILMORE STADIUM WHERE THE MAIN ATTRACTION WAS A BASEBALL CLUB THAT NEVER HAD TO WORRY ABOUT PLAYING IN A WORLD SERIES.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, SOME SAY L.A. HAS NO CENTRAL CORE, BUT WE’LL MEET SOME URBAN PIONEERS WHO DISAGREE AND THEY’RE BLAZING A NEW TRAIL AMONG THE DOWNTOWN SKYSCRAPERS.

GAY YEE>> WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO LIVE DOWN HERE? WHAT TYPE OF PERSONALITY?

>> ADAPTABILITY. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO ADAPT TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS AND BE A SWISS ARMY KNIFE TO WHATEVER COMES YOUR WAY.

JESS>> FED UP WITH THE HIJINKS THAT OFTEN PASSES FOR JUSTICE IN AMERICA’S COURTROOMS? SO IS OUR NEXT GUEST, AND SHE’S ONE EXPERT WHO’S BEEN ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BENCH.

VAL>> TODAY CATHERINE CRIER IS AN AWARD-WINNING JOURNALIST AND ANCHOR FOR COURT TV, BUT SHE’S ALSO A FORMER TEXAS JUDGE AND NOW SHE’S WRITTEN A TOUGH NEW BOOK ON THE LEGAL SYSTEM CALLED “THE CASE AGAINST LAWYERS” AND WE ARE VERY PLEASED TO HAVE CATHERINE CRIER WITH US TONIGHT. THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

CATHERINE CRIER>> AT LEAST SOMEBODY IS STILL SPEAKING TO ME (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) BUT MAYBE NOT WHEN WE’RE THROUGH.

CATHERINE CRIER>> I’M NOT SURE.

JESS>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE LAW HAS BEEN TURNED INTO AN “INSTRUMENT OF TYRANNY”.

CATHERINE CRIER>> ABSOLUTELY. WE RAN AWAY FROM KING GEORGE BECAUSE THAT WAS THE TYRANT. THE WILL OF ONE MAN COULD DOMINATE A COUNTRY. HE COULD SAY MY FRIENDS DON’T PAY THE TAX, YOU GUYS HAVE TO PAY THE TAX. SO WE COME OVER HERE, WE CREATE THE RULE OF LAW, GOING TO TREAT US EQUALLY AND FAIRLY, NOW WE HAVE LAWYERS, BUREAUCRATS AND POLITICIANS DOING THE SAME THING. WE’RE GOING TO GIVE YOU ALL OF THIS AND YOU GUYS GO PLAY IN TRAFFIC.

JESS>> BUT, COME ON, YOU’VE BEEN THE LAW.

CATHERINE CRIER>> ABSOLUTELY. AND I WAS FAIR AND JUST AND HONEST AND PERFECT (LAUGHTER). I’M A REAL IDEALIST. I WANTED TO BE A LAWYER FROM THE TIME I WAS THREE OR FOUR YEARS OLD. THE DREAM WAS TO BE ONE OF THOSE SENTINELS, AND THOSE WERE THE ATTORNEYS WHO WERE GOING TO PROTECT THE CORNERSTONE OF A DEMOCRACY, AND THAT WAS THE RULE OF LAW AND THE SYSTEM OF JUSTICE IN THIS COUNTRY. FROM THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM TO THE CIVIL SYSTEM TO A CIVIL BENCH, I BEGAN TO SEE THE TARNISH. BUT REALLY AFTER COVERING IN POLITICS AND IN ISSUES FOR FIFTEEN YEARS, I SAID, OKAY, NOW I’VE GOT THE BIG PICTURE AND IT’S TIME TO WRITE THE BOOK.

VAL>> BUT IT WAS CREATED WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS, SO WHAT WENT WRONG?

CATHERINE CRIER>> WELL, YOU CAN TAKE THE HISTORY AND REALLY START IN THE FORTIES. BUT I TRY TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BOOK WITHOUT GIVING TOO MUCH OF A HISTORY LESSON. IT WAS TRANSITION IN THE FORTIES THAT GAVE POLITICIANS THE RIGHT, BASICALLY, TO DELIVER PORK. ONCE THEY HAD THE RIGHT TO WRITE A LAW -- THAT’S WHAT THEY’RE DOING -- TO WRITE A LAW FOR A SPECIFIC CONSTITUENT, MAYBE AN INDUSTRY, MAYBE A COMPANY, MAYBE A FRIEND, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY LEARNED THAT WAS REAL POWER. WE THINK THAT CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM INVOLVING MONEY IS GOING TO DO THE TRICK? THE WAY LAWS ARE WRITTEN, MANIPULATED AND SELECTIVELY ENFORCED IS PROBABLY THE BIGGEST QUID PRO QUO GOING ON IN WASHINGTON.

JESS>> WHAT’S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE LAW THEN?

CATHERINE CRIER>> WELL, I THINK WE HAVE GONE FROM THE NOTION OF THE REASONABLE MAN, LAWS THAT WOULD VERY GENERALLY AND BROADLY GUIDE OUR CONDUCT BECAUSE WE, AS CITIZENS, HAD CONNECTIVE PRINCIPLES AND IDEALS. WE DIDN’T NEED A RULE TO GOVERN EVERY STEP WE TOOK BECAUSE WE HAD SORT OF THIS SOCIAL PACT, THIS SOCIAL AGREEMENT, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE QUIT WORKING AS COMMUNITY, SELF-ENFORCING THOSE HIDDEN LAWS THAT WEREN’T ON THE BOOKS AND, WITHIN THAT VACUUM, STEPPED GOVERNMENT, LAWYERS, BUREAUCRATS. WE QUIT PLAYING THE GAME, THEY TOOK OVER, AND SO NOW YOU HAVE THE ELITE ENFORCING THIS FROM THE TOP DOWN.

VAL>> AND YOU SAY, IN FACT, THAT PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH POWER REGULATORY AGENCIES HAVE. THE IRS, THE FDA, EPA --

CATHERINE CRIER>> -- WELL, I THINK WE GOT THE IRS (LAUGHTER), BUT AS A REAL FOOTNOTE, THAT’S PROBABLY THE BIGGEST SOURCE OF CORRUPTION. YOU GO INTO THE IRS CODE, 36,000 PAGES, LONGER THAN “WAR AND PEACE”. EVERY TIME THEY DO A TAXPAYERS’ REFORM ACT, I LAUGH BECAUSE THERE ARE ANOTHER 2,000 PAGES ADDED ON. AND THE LOOPHOLES IN THERE FOR CORPORATIONS AND BUSINESSES -- I FOUND ONE THAT WAS ACTUALLY DELIVERED BY SENATOR MOYNIHAN, WHO I’VE ALWAYS TREMENDOUSLY RESPECTED, AND IT WAS SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT IF YOU ARE ONE OF FIVE DOCTORS LIVING IN ROCHESTER, NEW YORK WHO WERE INCORPORATED ON SUCH AND SUCH A DATE, YOU GET THIS BREAK.

VAL>> OH, MY GOD.

CATHERINE CRIER>> IF YOU GO THROUGH AND READ THIS STUFF, YOU WILL FIND THERE WAS A BIG SCANDAL ABOUT A BREAK FOR AMWAY CORPORATION, THE SUBSIDIES, SO WE KNOW THERE’S A REAL PROBLEM THERE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OUGHT TO KNOW IT BECAUSE, IF EVERYBODY WAS PAYING THEIR TAXES, INCLUDING THE CORPORATIONS, THAT THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO PAY, WE’D GET BIG TAX CUTS. NO PROBLEM. IN FACT, A FABULOUS PAIR OF REPORTERS IN A RELATIVELY NEW BOOK CALLED “THE GREAT AMERICAN TAX FRAUD” SAID, IF THOSE CORPORATIONS AND THE BIG GUYS WERE PAYING JUST WHAT’S DUE, WE’D PROBABLY GET BACK ABOUT $3,000 A YEAR PER PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY.

JESS>> AND THE LAWYERS ARE ALL TO BLAME?

CATHERINE CRIER>> WELL, PEOPLE SAY WHY JUST LAWYERS, THE CASE AGAINST LAWYERS? I SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. THE LAWYERS ARE THE ONES WHO WRITE THE LEGISLATION THAT IS PASSED BY CONGRESS, WHO WRITE THE REGULATIONS THAT MAY BE THEN DELIVERED TO THE BUREAUCRATS, WHO OBVIOUSLY WORK WITHIN THE COURTS, WHO SIT ON THE BENCH, SO ALL OF THESE DIVISIONS YOU GO THROUGH. I PUT IT IN OUR LAP. I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY PROFESSION AND FOR MYSELF BECAUSE THAT MEANS I HAVE SOME POWER TO CHANGE IT.

VAL>> BUT YOU GO BEYOND POLITICS. YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT JURIES, JUDGES, WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS IN OUR COURTROOMS. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS SEE IS PEOPLE NOT TAKING INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN STUPIDITY. YOU KNOW, WE HEAR ABOUT THE WOMAN WHO SUED BECAUSE OF THE COFFEE SPILLED AND IT WAS TOO HOT AND NOW WE HAVE A $23 BILLION DOLLAR JUDGMENT IN A CIGARETTE CASE.

CATHERINE CRIER>> YOU HAVE TO LAUGH. I FIND IT EXTRAORDINARY. WE COULD GO TO THAT, BUT FIRST I LOVE THIS. YOU CAN’T KICK NICOTINE, YOU GET $23 BILLION DOLLARS. YOU CAN’T KICK AN ILLEGAL DRUG, YOU GO TO THE PEN OFTEN FOR LIFE. NOW YOU FIGURE THAT ONE OUT. BUT WE’VE GOT THESE OUTRAGEOUS PUNITIVE DAMAGES AND ONE OF THE REASONS THE ENVELOPE HAS BEEN PUSHED SO FAR IS THAT ONCE UPON A TIME CONTINGENCY FEES WERE ONLY SO THE POOR COULD HIRE A LAWYER. THEY’D GIVE AWAY A SHARE OF ANY RECOVERY SO THEY COULD GET A LAWYER.

NOW LAWYERS ARE PARTNERS, PARTNERS IN ALL CIVIL LITIGATION, SO THAT IT IS IN THEIR INTEREST -- BECAUSE THEY’RE A SHAREHOLDER IN THE LAWSUIT ESSENTIALLY -- THEIR INTEREST TO PUSH IT AS FAR AS YOU CAN, KEEP IT GOING, GET EVERY POSSIBLE BUCK BY PUSHING THE LAW, THE JURY AND THE SYSTEM. WE’VE MADE BILLIONAIRES. THEY CALL IT THE LARGEST TRANSFER OF WEALTH IN WORLD HISTORY TO THE SMALLEST GROUP OF PEOPLE. IT’S NOT THE CIGARETTE PLAINTIFFS, IT’S THE LAWYERS. WE’VE MADE BILLIONAIRES OUT OF A TINY GROUP OF LAWYERS.

VAL>> OUT OF LAWYERS IN ALL THIS CIGARETTE LITIGATION.

JESS>> YOU’VE BEEN VERY STRONG IN YOUR SUPPORT OF DECRIMINALIZING MARIJUANA.

CATHERINE CRIER>> YES.

JESS>> WOULD YOU LEGALIZE DRUGS GENERALLY?

CATHERINE CRIER>> NO, NO. I HAVE A REAL TOUGH TIME BECAUSE THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT RUNS AND THE SYSTEM IS RUNNING, I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY DANGEROUS. DANGEROUS DRUGS, INCLUDING PHARMACEUTICALS AND OTHER PRESCRIPTION DRUGS, WE’VE GOT TO BE MUCH MORE CAREFUL. BUT MARIJUANA, WE’RE GOING TO LOOK BACK I HOPE IN A SHORT PERIOD TIME TO WHAT WERE WE DOING? YOU REALIZE THAT EACH OF US IS CONTRIBUTING TO THAT $30,000 A YEAR ON AVERAGE IT COSTS TO KEEP SOME NON-VIOLENT DRUG OFFENDER, MINOR DEALER -- WHEN I SAY MINOR DEALER, I MEAN THE WELFARE MOM WHO MIGHT SELL A BIT OF CRACK ON THE CORNER TO SIMPLY BUY GROCERIES. NOW THAT’S ILLEGAL, IT’S WRONG. GET HER IN TREATMENT, GET HER A JOB AND GET HER OUT OF THE PRISON SYSTEM WHERE IT’S COSTING US A FORTUNE. EACH KID? AVERAGE $40,000 A YEAR IN FOSTER CARE. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT NONSENSE WE’RE DOING? AND THE WORST PART OF IT ALL IS THAT WE’VE SPENT HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON A DRUG WAR OVER THE LAST FORTY YEARS AND WE HAVE NOT CHANGED A WHIT THE NUMBER OF HARDCORE ADDICTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

JESS>> YOU’VE ALSO BEEN OPPOSED TO CALIFORNIA’S THREE STRIKES LAW, TO THREE STRIKES LAWS GENERALLY.

CATHERINE CRIER>> ABSOLUTELY. WHAT WAS INTENDED -- AND I FIND THAT MANY CALIFORNIANS AGREE COMPLETELY -- IT WAS INTENDED TO GET THE BAD GUYS. YOU WERE GOING AFTER THE REALLY VIOLENT GUYS TO MAKE SURE THEY WERE FINALLY LOCKED UP. WHAT WE’VE GOT NOW ARE -- A CASE I CAME OUT HERE AND DID FOR FOX NEWS WHEN I WAS THERE -- A KID BURGLED HIS MOTHER’S GARAGE AND THE NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR’S FOR SOME DRUG MONEY. SHE GOT TOUGH WITH HIM, TOUGH LOVE, SAID YOU’RE GOING IN AND TURNING YOURSELF IN, HE SAID, YES, MA’AM, I’M SORRY. HE DID, TWO FELONY CONVICTIONS. THEN HE WAS CAUGHT PLAYING LOOKOUT FOR A FRIEND WHO WAS MAKING A SALE IN THE ALLEY. THAT WAS THREE STRIKES. HE’S DOING LIFE, LIFE IN PRISON. THAT’S NOT WHAT THIS WAS MEANT TO BE.

VAL>> SO WHERE DO WE START? WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THESE INANITIES AND INSANITIES REALLY. WHERE DOES REFORM BEGIN?

CATHERINE CRIER>> WELL, THE LAWS ARE MADE. THEY CAN BE UNMADE. WE CAN REVOKE. WE CAN GO BACK. PEOPLE DON’T THINK SO. ONCE IT’S ON THE BOOK, IT’S THERE. BUT WHAT WE HAVE TO DO AS THE CITIZENS IS MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT WE WANT. PEOPLE SAY, OH, THAT SOUNDS SO NAÏVE. REAL QUICKLY, 1992, ROSS PEROT. HE’S FROM MY HOMETOWN, SO I CAN PICK ON HIM (LAUGHTER). BUT ROSS COMES ON “LARRY KING LIVE” AND HE SAYS, PUT ME ON THE BALLOT IN FIFTY STATES AND I JUST MIGHT RUN FOR PRESIDENT. BUT HE SAYS THERE’S A CONTINGENCY CLAUSE HERE. I WILL BE YOUR SERVANT -- HARD TO CONTEMPLATE -- BUT I WILL BE YOUR SERVANT IF YOU WILL BE THE MASTERS.

NOW WE GOT REALLY EXCITED. PEOPLE COMING OUT OF NURSING HOMES AND SHOPPING MALLS. HE SAID TO US, QUIT SLOBBERING EVERY TIME THEY RING THE BELL THAT SAYS TAX CUTS BECAUSE WE REALLY NEED TO WORK ON THE DEFICIT. NOW NO POLITICIANS ON THE HILL WERE TRYING TO PITCH US ON THE DEFICIT. THEY WERE SAYING WE’RE GOING TO CUT YOUR TAXES. HE TOLD US DIFFERENTLY, WE CHANGED OUR MINDS OVERNIGHT. WE LET THE POLITICIANS ON THE HILL KNOW WE’D VOTE THIS ISSUE AND THEY CAME UP WITH REDUCING THE DEFICIT AND BALANCING THE BUDGET.

JESS>> THAT WAS A CALL FOR REVOLT (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) THERE’S HOPE YET. CATHERINE CRIER, THANK YOU SO MUCH. IT’S A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE ON THE SHOW. AGAIN, YOUR BOOK IS CALLED “THE CASE AGAINST LAWYERS: HOW LAWYERS, POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS HAVE TURNED THE LAW INTO AN INSTRUMENT OF TYRANNY”.

CATHERINE CRIER>> THANK YOU.

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
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JESS>> IT’S NO SECRET THAT MANY AMERICANS ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THE ONGOING PROBLEM OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND, AS THAT FEELING GROWS, THE U.S. HAS RESPONDED BY CLAMPING DOWN WITH MORE SECURITY, WITH STEEL WALLS ALONG THE BORDER.

VAL>> IT’S ALSO NO SECRET THAT MANY WHO LIVE SOUTH OF THE BORDER FEEL AMERICA HAS TRIED TO BUILD A NEW BERLIN WALL TO KEEP THEM OUT. THOSE FEELINGS HAVE BEEN PUT ONTO CANVAS BY OUR NEXT GUEST. HE’S AN ARTIST FROM TIJUANA WHO USES POPULAR AMERICAN CARTOON CHARACTERS TO MAKE HIS POINT. NOW SOME OF ROBERTO [RESEQUE’S] CONTROVERSIAL WORKS HAVE ARRIVED IN LOS ANGELES FOR AN EXHIBIT AT THE MEXICAN CULTURAL INSTITUTE AT PLAZA OLVERA. THANK YOU.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW ARE THE ARTIST, ROBERTO [RESEQUE] AND SUSANA BAUTISTA, WHO’S THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MEXICAN CULTURAL INSTITUTE. WHAT’S BEEN THE RESPONSE TO THESE CARTOONS, OR TO YOUR PAINTINGS?

SUSANA BAUTISTA>> WONDERFUL. ROBERTO WAS WITH US FOR THE FIRST THREE DAYS AT THE EXHIBITION OPENED FOR SEPTEMBER 16 AND WE HAVE HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE COME THROUGH THE GALLERY DOOR, LATINOS AND NON-LATINOS, AND NO ONE IS UNTOUCHED FROM THE EXHIBITION.

JESS>> PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO THEM, PARTICULARLY SINCE YOU USE FAMILIAR CARTOON CHARACTERS IN SOME OF THEM, BUT SOME OF THEM HAVE THE VIEW OF THE GREAT MEXICAN MURALISTS. HERE, OF COURSE, IS A CARTOON AGAIN.

VAL>> NOW WHY DID YOU CHOOSE -- LET’S SEE, WE HAVE “THE FLINTSTONES” AND WE’VE GOT --

JESS>> -- “PINOCCHIO”.

VAL>> WHAT WAS YOUR THINKING WHEN YOU DREW UPON THOSE VERY AMERICAN CHARACTERS AND PUT THEM AGAINST THE MEXICAN TRYING TO CROSS THE BORDER?

ROBERTO>> THE PROBLEM REFLECTED IN THIS COUNTRY IN MY ART, THERE REALLY WAS PROBLEM. I NEED SOME FORM TO EXPLAIN AND USE COMIC CARTOON.

JESS>> THAT WAS THE CONNECTION THEN, AND IT WORKS, HUH?

VAL>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PICTURES SAY? DO THEY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, EVEN THESE SUPPOSEDLY FRIENDLY AMERICAN FACES ARE SUDDENLY VILLAINOUS WHEN THEY’RE AT THE BORDER? I MEAN, THESE ARE NORMALLY VERY SWEET AND NICE CHARACTERS.

SUSANA BAUTISTA>> RIGHT. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT THIS IS A VIEW FROM THE OTHER SIDE, WHICH IS WHY IT WAS SO IMPORTANT FOR US TO PRESENT THE OTHER SIDE. OF COURSE, THE WAY THAT YOU VIEW DISNEY CHARACTERS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BORDER, IT’S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN WE VIEW THEM. THEY’RE SYMBOLIC OF THE UNITED STATES, OF HOLLYWOOD. TO US, THEY’RE COMMON SYMBOLS THAT WE SEE EVERY DAY, THE FAMILIAR SYMBOLS.

ROBERTO>> IT IS A VISION THE POOR PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY. THE VISION IS A FANTASYLAND.

VAL>> IT’S A FANTASYLAND AND YET THERE IS THIS OBVIOUSLY NEARLY IMPENETRABLE WALL THAT YOU CAN’T GET OVER.

JESS>> AND YOU SUGGEST, WHEN YOU DO GET OVER THE WALL, THE FANTASY MAY DISAPPEAR?

ROBERTO>> NO.

JESS>> STILL THERE?

ROBERTO>> CHANGE WILL BE [INAUDIBLE], BUT THE REAL PROBLEM IS POLITICAL. THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT, THIS IS ALREADY THE PROBLEM.

VAL>> NOW A LOT OF PEOPLE BLAME THE UNITED STATES’ POLICIES, YOU KNOW, IN NOT HELPING MEXICO’S ECONOMY AND ALL, BUT YOU ACTUALLY PUT THE MAJORITY OF THE BLAME ON THE MEXICAN LEADERS, MEXICAN POLITICIANS AND MEXICAN GOVERNMENT FOR THE STATE OF MEXICO, YES?

ROBERTO>> YES.

JESS>> HAS THAT CHANGED IN THE ADVENT OF VICENTE FOX?

ROBERTO>> THIS MOMENT, NO. HASN’T CHANGED.

JESS>> REFORM IS NOT THERE.

ROBERTO>> NO, NOT THERE.

VAL>> BECAUSE HE PROMISES TO CLEAN UP AND END THE CORRUPTION AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING, BUT IT’S A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT THING TO DO.

ROBERTO>> HE’S SAYING TO.

VAL>> NOW HOW DID YOU COME ACROSS THE EXHIBIT AND WHY DID YOU --

SUSANA BAUTISTA>> WELL, I’VE HAD A WONDERFUL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ARTISTS IN BAJA NORTE, WHICH IS THE NORTHERN PART OF TIJUANA AND THE BORDER REGION IN MEXICO, FOR A FEW YEARS NOW AS A PROFESSIONAL ART HISTORIAN. I HAVE MET SO MANY WONDERFUL ARTISTS SUCH AS ROBERTO THAT I FELT IT WAS TIME TO BRING THEM TO LOS ANGELES AND GENERATE GREATER VISIBILITY FOR THIS WONDERFUL ART SCENE.

VAL>> VERY GOOD.

JESS>> WE THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. THE NAME OF THE EXHIBIT IS “BETWEEN NECESSITY AND CONTEMPT”. IT’S ON DISPLAY THIS WEEKEND AT THE MEXICAN CULTURAL INSTITUTE AT PLAZA OLVERA. FOR MORE INFORMATION, YOU CAN CALL THE NUMBER ON YOUR SCREEN.

[213-624-3660]

VAL>> ARTIST LIZA LOU TAKES ORDINARY SCENES OF SUBURBAN LIFE AND ENCRUSTS THEM WITH MILLIONS OF BEADS. HER BEADS COVER EVERY SURFACE FROM BEER CANS TO BLADES OF GRASS. THE WORK JUST WON MS. LOU A MACARTHUR FOUNDATION GRANT, ONE HALF MILLION DOLLARS, NO STRINGS ATTACHED. IS IT ART? YOU BE THE JUDGE.

LIZA LOU>> BEADS ARE MY PAINTS. THERE'S NO WAY TO GET THIS KIND OF COLOR, LUMINOSITY, WITH REGULAR PAINT, WITH PIGMENT. THEY ARE LIKE A THREE-DIMENSIONAL INCREDIBLE COLOR THAT I EXPERIMENTED AND COULDN'T FIND WITH ANY OTHER MATERIAL. THE MINUTE I STARTED USING THE MATERIAL, I COULDN'T GO BACK TO ANYTHING ELSE. EVERYTHING ELSE LOOKED LACKLUSTER TO ME.

I WANTED TO MAKE A SHRINE OUT OF EVERYDAY LIFE. YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO MAKE A CATHEDRAL KIND OF EXPERIENCE FROM WHAT I SEE EVERY DAY. AND IT WAS INSPIRED BY GOING TO EUROPE AND SEEING INCREDIBLE CATHEDRALS AND THINGS. I WANTED TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THIS STUFF, REGULAR STUFF.

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LIZA LOU>> MY WORK IS NOT ABOUT BEADS. IT'S ABOUT THE IDEAS BEHIND THE WORK, SO IT'S LIKE PAINT. TO SAY THAT I USE BEADS DOESN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING. WHAT TELLS YOU SOMETHING IS WHY DOES THIS PERSON USE BEADS? THERE'S A SPECIFIC REASON I USE THESE MATERIALS. MAKING A KITCHEN WAS REALLY A PIECE ABOUT CELEBRATING WOMEN'S WORK. IT MADE SENSE FOR ME TO MAKE IT OUT OF BEADS BECAUSE IT'S SO LABOR-INTENSIVE, AND THE KIND OF WORK THAT WOMEN HAVE DONE THROUGHOUT THE CENTURY HAS BEEN SO LABOR-INTENSIVE WITHOUT ANY KIND OF HOOPLA AT THE END. THIS IS MY WAY OF GIVING THAT LABOR A KIND OF CELEBRATION. WHEN I WAS DOING THE DISHES IN THE KITCHEN, MAKING THAT AND LOOKING THROUGH THE WINDOWS, I THOUGHT WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE TO LOOK THROUGH THE WINDOWS AND SEE A TREE?

THE BACK YARD, I THINK, IS REALLY A PIECE ABOUT PUTTING GRASS INSIDE, ONLY MAKING IT THE ULTIMATE GRASS. I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT PERVERSE TO PUT A BACK YARD IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ART MUSEUM. IT'S PROBABLY ACTUALLY SAFER TO STAY INDOORS IN TERMS OF THE AIR QUALITY, SO THIS IS A PERFECT LOS ANGELES BACK YARD. THE KITCHEN TOOK FIVE YEARS BECAUSE I DID IT BY MYSELF AND THE BACK YARD ONLY TOOK TWO YEARS. AS IT WENT ALONG, I GAVE UP TAKING NOTE ON HOW LONG THINGS TOOK AND I JUST STARTED TO ENJOY THE PROCESS.

IT'S A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO MAKE ART. THE WORK ALWAYS STARTS FOR ME, NOT ABOUT WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY AS MUCH AS IT BECOMES ABOUT VISUALLY REALLY BEING CURIOUS OF WHAT IT’S GOING TO LOOK LIKE. IT'S MORE ABOUT WHAT IT’S GOING TO LOOK LIKE TO HAVE WATER RUSHING OUT OF THE SINK MADE OUT OF BEADS. THAT BECOMES THE OVERRIDING PASSION. YOU WOULDN'T SPEND FIVE YEARS SAYING ONE THING. YOU WOULD WANT TO SAY MANY THINGS. THAT WAS THE CHALLENGE WITH THIS. IT’S SAYING MORE THAN ONE THING SO THAT PEOPLE CAN INTERPRET IT IN MANY WAYS. I HOPE IN TEN YEARS OR TWENTY YEARS, THAT PEOPLE WON'T TALK ABOUT THE MATERIALS ANYMORE, THAT IT WILL BE JUST THINGS THAT PEOPLE USE IN ART SCHOOL. AND I STARTED TO SEE THAT.

I WAS TEACHING THIS LAST QUARTER AT U.C.S.C. AND PEOPLE WERE USING ALL DIFFERENT THINGS FOR THEIR STUFF. THEY WERE USING RICE, THEY WERE USING BEADS AND IT WASN'T LIKE, OH, YOU'RE USING BEADS. IT WAS, THIS IS ANOTHER ART MATERIAL. I STARTED TO USE BEADS AND WAS SO CRITICIZED FOR IT THAT I THOUGHT I MUST BE REALLY DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. I MUST HAVE FOUND AN ART MATERIAL THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ART, SO MAYBE IT'S SOMETHING ORIGINAL. SO THAT CRITICISM INSPIRED ME TO SAY I'M GOING TO JUST BEAD THE WORLD.

JESS>> SOME OF LIZA LOU’S WORK IS IN PRIVATE COLLECTIONS. SHE MADE SEVERAL PAIRS OF BEADED SHOES AND SLIPPERS FOR ACTOR LEONARD NIMOY, WHO HAS THEM SITTING IN A HALLWAY, SHOES JUST AS THOUGH SOMEONE HAD SLIPPED THEM OFF IN A HURRY.

VAL>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. YOU CAN GO TO KCET.ORG AND CLICK ON “LIFE AND TIMES”. IF YOU LOOK FOR “SPECIALS”, THERE YOU WILL FIND OUR “REALITY CHECK” WHICH PUTS POLITICAL ADS TO THE TEST, AND OTHER POLITICAL NEWS OF INTEREST TO CALIFORNIA VOTERS.

JESS>> NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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