10/23/02

LC021023

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> TRACKING DOWN THE SOURCE OF A MYSTERIOUS BRAIN DISORDER. WHY IS IT AFFECTING SO MANY CALIFORNIA CHILDREN?

J.C. FLORES>> I’VE STOPPED BEATING MYSELF UP OVER WHAT THE CAUSE IS. I’VE STOPPED BEING FRUSTRATED. I’M NOW MORE FRUSTRATED TRYING TO FIND THE CURE BECAUSE IT’S TOO LATE TO FIND THE CAUSE FOR ME.

VAL>> SHE CALLS HERSELF A REFORMED LIBERAL AND SHE’S MADE SOME ENEMIES. TONIGHT AUTHOR LINDA CHAVEZ EXPLAINS WHY SOME CALL HER THE MOST HATED HISPANIC IN AMERICA.

JESS>> AND THEN TWO OLD PARTNERS ARE TOGETHER AGAIN, AT LEAST FOR THE NEXT HALF HOUR. ROBIN MACNEIL AND JIM LEHRER SET A NEW STANDARD FOR TELEVISION NEWS, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE BUSINESS? STAY TUNED. TONIGHT WE’VE GOT OUR VERY OWN MACNEIL-LEHRER REPORT.

VAL>> IT’S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I’M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I’M JESS MARLOW. TONIGHT A MEDICAL MYSTERY, ONE THAT AFFECTS THOUSANDS OF YOUNGSTERS. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A NEW CALIFORNIA STUDY THAT POINTS TO A DRAMATIC INCREASE IN CHILDHOOD AUTISM.

VAL>> AUTISM IS A BRAIN DISORDER THAT AFFECTS A PERSON’S ABILITY TO BEHAVE NORMALLY. THE NEW STUDY INDICATES THAT, IN JUST OVER A DECADE, THE NUMBER OF CASES AMONG CHILDREN HAS SURGED STATEWIDE BY NEARLY THREE HUNDRED PERCENT. BUT AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE BIG QUESTION IS WHY?

GAY YEE>> WHEN LOMACI AND MARIEL WERE BORN SEVEN YEARS AGO, THEIR PARENTS NEVER IMAGINED THE CHALLENGES THE FAMILY WOULD FACE.

URIEL GALLEGOS>> WE WERE WAITING AND WAITING FOR THEM TO START TALKING, TO REALLY STOP CRYING, AND COMMUNICATING NORMALLY LIKE A KID.

J.C. FLORES>> I REMEMBER THAT THEY USED TO SMEAR THEIR FECES ALL OVER THE HOUSE AND THEY WERE NOT POTTY-TRAINED.

GAY YEE>> URIEL GALLEGOS AND HIS WIFE, J.C. FLORES, EVENTUALLY LEARNED THERE WAS A NAME FOR THEIR CHILDREN’S PROBLEMS: AUTISM. LIKE OTHER CHILDREN SUFFERING FROM THE MYSTERIOUS BRAIN DISORDER, THE GIRLS HAVE BEHAVIORAL ISSUES, DIFFICULTY COMMUNICATING AND TROUBLE WITH NORMAL SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, AND A NEW STUDY HAS JUST CONFIRMED WHAT MANY HAVE SUSPECTED FOR SOME TIME. AUTISM HAS REACHED AN EPIDEMIC LEVEL IN CALIFORNIA. ONCE RELATIVELY RARE, THE NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER NOW OCCURS ONCE IN EVERY FIVE HUNDRED BIRTHS AND NO ONE KNOWS WHY.

RITA RUBIN>> IT’S REALLY DIFFICULT BECAUSE THERE’S NOTHING THAT YOU CAN PUT YOUR FINGER ON THAT CAUSED IT, SO THAT IS UNSETTLING IN THAT YOU ALWAYS WONDER.

GAY YEE>> RITA RUBIN HEADS THE LOCAL CHAPTER OF THE AUTISM SOCIETY OF AMERICA. HER 24-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER, SUE, IS AUTISTIC. OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES, RITA HAS BECOME AN EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT.

RITA RUBIN>> PROBABLY MOST OF THE CASES HAVE SOME KIND OF GENETIC COMPONENT. HOWEVER, IT CAN’T ONLY BE GENETIC BECAUSE THEN YOU WOULDN’T HAVE AN EPIDEMIC. YOU WOULD HAVE THE SAME NUMBER OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, SO THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING ELSE THAT’S HAPPENING.

GAY YEE>> YEARS AGO, MOTHERS WERE BLAMED FOR THEIR CHILDREN’S AUTISM. THEY WERE CALLED REFRIGERATOR MOMS, A NOW DISCREDITED TERM THAT SUGGESTED MOTHERS WERE TOO COLD TO BOND WITH THEIR KIDS.

RITA RUBIN>> EVEN TODAY, THOUGH, IT’S AMAZING. YOU WOULD THINK THAT DOCTORS WOULD KNOW BETTER, BUT JUST RECENTLY A PARENT CALLED ME AND SAID THAT HER DOCTOR TOLD HER THAT SHE WAS THE CAUSE OF HER CHILD LACKING SPEECH AND HAVING BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS.

J.C. FLORES>> I’VE STOPPED BEATING MYSELF UP OVER WHAT THE CAUSE IS. I’VE STOPPED BEING FRUSTRATED. I’M NOW MORE FRUSTRATED TRYING TO FIND THE CURE BECAUSE IT’S TOO LATE TO FIND THE CAUSE FOR ME.

GAY YEE>> ONCE J.C. AND URIEL REALIZED THEIR GIRLS WERE AUTISTIC, THEY BEGAN PUSHING FOR THE SERVICES THEY’RE ENTITLED TO UNDER FEDERAL AND STATE LAW.

URIEL GALLEGOS>> IT’S BEEN ALWAYS A BATTLE. IT’S A CONSTANT BATTLE ALL THE TIME. THE FUNNY THING, THOUGH, IS THAT IF YOU KEEP GOING ON AT, YOU GET THE SERVICES, BUT YOU HAVE TO KEEP FIGHTING. I MEAN, EVEN HIRE LAWYERS AND FIGHT.

GAY YEE>> BY THE TIME THE TWINS WERE FOUR, NEITHER WAS TALKING. BUT J.C. AND URIEL INSISTED THAT THE GIRLS BE PROVIDED WITH A KIND OF BEHAVIOR THERAPY THAT COULD HELP. TODAY LOMACI SPEAKS, BUT HER SISTER DOES NOT.

J.C. FLORES>> A LOT OF THE FRUSTRATION IS THAT, FOR AUTISM, THERE’S NO REAL SURE PATH TO HELPING THE KIDS AND SOMETIMES YOU EXPERIMENT WITH DIFFERENT THINGS AND ONE THING HELPS ONE KID AND NOT THE OTHER.

RITA RUBIN>> THERE’S A PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN WHO WILL BENEFIT FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF THERAPIES, SO WHAT YOU END UP DOING IS HAVING TO TRY A LOT OF THINGS UNTIL YOU FIND THE THING THAT WORKS FOR YOUR CHILD.

GAY YEE>> RITA RUBIN SAYS SHE HEARS FROM MANY FAMILIES WHO HAVE HAD TO FIGHT FOR SERVICES.

RITA RUBIN>> I GET PHONE CALLS FROM PARENTS WHO SAY MY CHILD IS NOT GETTING SPEECH THERAPY BECAUSE THEY SAY HE DOESN’T NEED IT BECAUSE HE DOESN’T TALK. WELL, IF A CHILD DOESN’T TALK, THEN IT’S THE SPEECH THERAPIST’S JOB TO FIND AN ALTERNATE METHOD OF COMMUNICATION.

GAY YEE>> WHEN RITA’S DAUGHTER, SUE, WAS GROWING UP, EVERYONE THOUGHT SHE WAS RETARDED AS WELL AS AUTISTIC, BUT A NEW TECHNIQUE KNOWN AS FACILITATED COMMUNICATION PUT SUE ON A NEW PATH WHEN SHE WAS THIRTEEN.

RITA RUBIN>> SHE’S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON. SHE’S AWARE OF WHAT’S HAPPENING IN THE WORLD AROUND HER, SHE HAS THE SAME KIND OF EMOTIONAL REACTIONS THAT WE DO, AND SHE THINKS, AND SHE HAS FRIENDS.

GAY YEE>> URIEL GALLEGOS SAYS HE’S HAPPY WITH THE CHANGES HE’S SEEN IN HIS TWINS.

URIEL GALLEGOS>> WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THE PROGRESS HAS BEEN TREMENDOUS. I REMEMBER CONSTANT CRYING, CONSTANT TANTRUMS. IT WAS HARD TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WANTED. NOW THEY CAN COMMUNICATE, THEY CAN BEHAVE, TANTRUMS ARE NOT THERE. YOU KNOW, THEY SHOW A LOT OF EMOTIONS, THEY SHOW LOVE.

GAY YEE>> BUT FOR THE TWINS’ MOTHER, AUTISM HAS CREATED A DAILY CHALLENGE THAT PUTS EVERYONE IN THE FAMILY TO THE TEST.

J.C. FLORES>> I THINK IT’S TAKEN AWAY A LOT OF THE JOY OF PARENTHOOD, HAVING AUTISTIC KIDS. BECAUSE OF THEIR BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS, THEIR BEHAVIOR IS STILL IN MANY WAYS TODDLER-LIKE AND THEY NEED CONSTANT SUPERVISION STILL.

JESS>> THE SURGE IN CHILDHOOD AUTISM HAS SOME SERIOUS FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS FOR THE STATE SINCE CALIFORNIA SPENDS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON AUTISM TREATMENT, BUT THERE IS ONE POSITIVE NOTE. SUE RUBIN, THE YOUNG WOMAN YOU JUST SAW IN GAY YEE’S REPORT, HAS MADE MAJOR PROGRESS. IN FACT, SHE IS NOW A JUNIOR AT WHITTIER COLLEGE.

VAL>> LATER THIS EVENING, A LIFE AND TIMES SPECIAL, THE BATTLE OVER SECESSION. WE’LL BE BACK HERE TONIGHT AT 8:30 WITH A LIVELY LOOK AT THE PROS AND CONS OF THE SECESSION MOVEMENT.

>> LOS ANGELES IS DOING NOTHING FOR US. WE’VE BEEN NEGLECTED TOO LONG.

>> ON A RELEVANT SCALE, IT’S GOING TO BE ABOUT THE SAME. THAT’S WHAT I THINK, SO I’M AGAINST IT.

JESS>> TWO YEARS AGO, OUR NEXT GUEST GOT A TASTE OF JUST HOW ROUGH WASHINGTON POLITICS CAN BE. LINDA CHAVEZ WAS THE PRESIDENT'S CHOICE FOR SECRETARY OF LABOR, BUT THEN HER NOMINATION CAME UNDER SIEGE AS CHAVEZ FACES ALLEGATIONS THAT SHE HAD HARBORED AN ILLEGAL ALIEN.

VAL>> SHE TELLS THE STORY IN A NEW BOOK. IT'S CALLED "AN UNLIKELY CONSERVATIVE: THE TRANSFORMATION OF AN EX-LIBERAL, OR HOW I BECAME THE MOST HATED HISPANIC IN AMERICA". LINDA CHAVEZ JOINS US HERE TONIGHT. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

JESS>> YOU ARE AN UNLIKELY LOT OF THINGS (LAUGHTER). NON-SPANISH SPEAKING, BUT HAD BEEN IN CHARGE OF PROGRAMS FOR SPANISH SPEAKERS, A CONVERT TO JUDAISM --

LINDA CHAVEZ>> -- AND BACK AGAIN TO CATHOLICISM.

JESS>> AND BACK AGAIN TO CATHOLICISM.

VAL>> WORKING FOR BOTH THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS.

JESS>> YOU'RE FLEXIBLE (LAUGHTER).

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WELL, ACTUALLY, MY CRITICS SAY I'M NOT FLEXIBLE ENOUGH, THAT'S THE PROBLEM (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> BUT WHAT GENERALLY DID CAUSE YOUR TRANSFORMATION? BASICALLY, WOULD YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF INITIALLY IN THE LIBERAL CAMP AND THEN YOU BECAME CONSERVATIVE? WHY THE CHANGE?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WELL, I THINK THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS, BUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES THAT REALLY TURNED ME AROUND. I WAS INITIALLY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT THE IDEA OF REACHING OUT AND HELPING PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN DISADVANTAGED IN THE PAST. BUT WHEN I TAUGHT IN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION PROGRAMS, FIRST AT COLORADO AND THEN AT UCLA, I FOUND THAT THEY REALLY WERE NOT DOING WHAT THEY WERE INTENDED TO DO. IN FACT, THEY WERE CREATING A GROUP OF STUDENTS WHO SAW THEMSELVES AS VICTIMS, WHO HAD GRIEVANCES, WHO BECAME ANTI-WHITE, ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-ANGLO, AND I FOUND MYSELF UNCOMFORTABLE.

JESS>> AND THEY BECAME ANTI-LINDA CHAVEZ.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> YES, THEY BECAME VERY ANTI-LINDA CHAVEZ, AND ACTUALLY --

VAL>> -- I'M SORRY, YOU WERE TEACHING? FOR EXAMPLE, YOUR UCLA EXPERIENCE. TELL US ABOUT THAT.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> I TAUGHT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA LOS ANGELES. I TAUGHT THE FIRST CHICANO LITERATURE COURSE ON CAMPUS THERE. I HAD STUDENTS WHO SAID TO ME THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO READ BOOKS, THEY BELIEVED THEY LIVED CHICANO LITERATURE, THEY DIDN'T NEED TO READ CHICANO LITERATURE. WHEN I FLUNKED A GROUP OF THEM, THEY ACTUALLY CAME BACK AND TOOK THEIR VENGEANCE BY SMEARING MY CAR WITH EXCREMENT, BY HAVING BOMB THREATS, BY THREATENING MY LIFE.

VAL>> WHEN WAS THIS? WHAT YEAR WAS THIS?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> THIS WAS ACTUALLY 1971, IN THE SPRING OF 1971, SO THAT HAS A WAY OF KIND OF SOBERING YOU AND MAKING YOU THINK MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO RETHINK SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS AND TAKE A LOOK AT WHETHER OR NOT MAYBE SOME OF THE PROGRAMS WERE DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD. IT BEGAN MY TRANSFORMATION. IT WAS A SLOW PROCESS. I WORKED FOR AL SHANKER OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS FOR MANY YEARS, VIEWED MYSELF AS A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT, EVEN WROTE CAMPAIGN LITERATURE FOR TED KENNEDY IN 1980. BUT WHEN I WENT INTO THE POLLING BOOTH IN 1980, I VOTED FOR RONALD REAGAN.

JESS>> AND, IN FACT, LIKE RONALD REAGAN, HE TOO HAD BEEN A DEMOCRAT TURNED REPUBLICAN.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> IN FACT, HE USED TO SAY, AND I'VE PICKED IT UP SINCE, THAT IT WASN'T THAT HE LEFT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. IT WAS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEFT HIM. I THINK I'D PROBABLY STILL BE RELATIVELY COMFORTABLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF JOHN F. KENNEDY, BUT I WAS NOT COMFORTABLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF GEORGE MCGOVERN NOR, FOR THAT MATTER, BILL CLINTON. I HAVE BECOME MORE CONSERVATIVE ON ECONOMIC ISSUES. BUT IT REALLY HAS BEEN SOME OF THE ISSUES LIKE BILINGUAL EDUCATION AND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION THAT HAVE PROBABLY PLAYED THE MAJOR ROLE IN MY TURNAROUND AND IN MY CAREER.

VAL>> AND IS THAT ALSO WHY YOU HAVE DUBBED YOURSELF PERHAPS THE MOST HATED HISPANIC IN AMERICA? WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> I ACTUALLY DID NOT DUB MYSELF THAT (LAUGHTER). AN HISPANIC MAGAZINE DID A COVER STORY ON ME BACK IN THE EARLY 1990'S IN WHICH THEY ASKED WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE HATE THIS WOMAN. INSIDE, THEY ACTUALLY INTERVIEWED PEOPLE WHO CALLED ME THE MOST HATED HISPANIC IN AMERICA. WHEN GEORGE W. BUSH NOMINATED ME TO BE SECRETARY OF LABOR, THE NEW YORK TIMES QUOTED PEOPLE DESCRIBING ME AS A TRAITOR TO MY RACE. I WAS NOT, IN FACT, IDEOLOGICALLY PART OF THE LEFT ANY LONGER AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO THINK, IF YOU'RE MEXICAN-AMERICAN AND FEMALE, YOU HAVE TO BE A LIBERAL. I'M NOT, AND SO THEY THEN DECIDED I WAS A HERETIC.

JESS>> BUT YOUR NOMINATION WAS REJECTED LARGELY BECAUSE YOU HAD A WOMAN WORKING FOR YOU WHO WAS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> ACTUALLY, SHE WASN'T WORKING FOR ME. SHE WAS WORKING FOR A NEIGHBOR OF MINE --

JESS>> -- WELL, BUT LIVING WITH YOU.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> SHE WAS LIVING WITH ME AND I HAD TAKEN HER INTO MY HOME AS, BY THE WAY, I HAD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS. I TOOK IN VIETNAMESE BOAT PEOPLE, I TOOK IN A COUPLE OF KIDS FROM NEW YORK WHO WERE PUERTO RICAN, PAID FOR THEIR CATHOLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION, I'VE HELPED PEOPLE COME OVER FROM EL SALVADOR AND OTHER PLACES AND HAD GENERALLY LENT A HELPING HAND LARGELY BECAUSE I COME FROM A VERY DISADVANTAGED BACKGROUND AND I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS IN MY BOOK.

VAL>> YOU HAD A VERY DIFFICULT CHILDHOOD. THERE'S ALCOHOLISM, SIBLINGS WHO DIED --

LINDA CHAVEZ>> -- A GRANDFATHER WHO SPENT ELEVEN YEARS IN LEAVENWORTH PRISON, MY FATHER WAS AN ALCOHOLIC, I HAD FOUR SIBLINGS, I LOST ALL OF THEM. TWO OF THEM DIED, ONE OF THEM WAS RAISED BY FAMILY MEMBERS AND A FOURTH WAS GIVEN UP FOR ADOPTION, SO I HAD A ROUGH GROWING-UP PERIOD. THIS WAS THE HARDEST PART OF THE BOOK TO WRITE. I ALSO WRITE IN THE BOOK A LOT ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A WOMAN AND, BY THE WAY, BEING A WOMAN IN THE REAGAN WHITE HOUSE. THAT WAS AN UPHILL BATTLE. WE'RE USED TO PEOPLE LIKE CONDOLEEZZA RICE AND KAREN HUGHES AND OTHERS, BUT AT THE TIME THAT I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, I WAS THE ONLY WOMAN WHO ATTENDED THE SENIOR STAFF MEETINGS, FOR EXAMPLE.

VAL>> WERE THERE ANY PARTICULAR INCIDENTS THAT YOU REMEMBER?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WELL, I DESCRIBE ONE IN THE BOOK IN WHICH JIM BAKER ACTUALLY GOT VERY EMBARRASSED BECAUSE DON REAGAN WHO WAS AT THE TIME CHIEF OF STAFF USED SOME SALTY LANGUAGE IN A MEETING IN WHICH I WAS IN AND THE MEN ALL STARTED GIGGLING LIKE A BUNCH OF SCHOOLBOYS. JIM BAKER TURNED TO DON REAGAN AND SAID, "WELL, DON'T LOOK AT ME. YOU'RE THE ONE WHO INVITED HER TO THE MEETING." I TALK ABOUT GETTING INTO DEBATES AT TIMES AND LITERALLY HAVING ONE OF THE MEN BACK INTO THE MEN'S ROOM IN ORDER TO END THE CONVERSATION. I THINK I WAS GETTING THE UPPER HAND. I DESCRIBE MY RUN-INS WITH MAUREEN REAGAN. THERE ARE A LOT OF PERSONAL ANECDOTES IN THIS BOOK.

JESS>> WHAT ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH JIMMY CARTER? YOU WERE ASSOCIATED WITH HIM ALSO.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WELL, I WAS IN THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION VERY BRIEFLY AT THEN HEW, HEALTH, EDUCATION AND WELFARE. THAT WAS WHEN I REALLY BEGAN QUESTIONING GOVERNMENT AND WHETHER OR NOT GOVERNMENT'S ROLE -- FIRST OF ALL, I HAD BEEN A MEMBER OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE'S SOCIALIST LEAGUE IN MY YOUTH AND I THOUGHT GOVERNMENT CONTROL OF THINGS WAS WONDERFUL UNTIL I ACTUALLY STARTED WORKING FOR GOVERNMENT. THEN I DECIDED THAT GOVERNMENT WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM, THAT THERE WAS TREMENDOUS INEFFICIENCY, THAT IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET THINGS DONE IN THE GOVERNMENT. THERE WAS BUREAUCRACY, THERE WERE UNION RULES, CIVIL SERVICE RULES AND, FRANKLY, JIMMY CARTER HIMSELF, I THOUGHT, WAS A GOOD MAN AND A TERRIBLE PRESIDENT.

JESS>> YOU SOUND A BIT LIKE A POLITICAL CANDIDATE. WOULD YOU EVER CONSIDER THAT?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WELL, I ACTUALLY RAN FOR THE UNITED STATES SENATE FROM MARYLAND. I LOST. I RAN AS A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN IN A VERY LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC STATE. I THINK I'M BETTER OFF BEING ABLE TO SPEAK MY OWN MIND. I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT APPEALING TO VOTERS, I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT REPRESENTING SOMEBODY ELSE'S VIEWS OTHER THAN MINE, SO I THINK MY WRITING COLUMNS, WRITING BOOKS AND BEING A POLITICAL COMMENTATOR ON TELEVISION PROBABLY SUITS ME PRETTY WELL.

VAL>> AND YOU'RE ALSO HEAD OF -- VERY BRIEFLY -- AN ORGANIZATION CALLED THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY CENTER --

LINDA CHAVEZ>> -- CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> WHOSE MISSION IS?

LINDA CHAVEZ>> WE PROMOTE COLORBLIND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, NO PREFERENCES FOR ANYONE AND NO DISCRIMINATION FOR ANYONE BASED ON RACE.

JESS>> OR GENDER.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> OR GENDER.

VAL>> SO NOT IN THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT STILL POLITICALLY ACTIVE. POLITICS IS IN YOUR BLOOD ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> WELL, LINDA CHAVEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE. THE NAME OF THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "AN UNLIKELY CONSERVATIVE: THE TRANSFORMATION OF AN EX-LIBERAL, OR HOW I BECAME THE MOST HATED HISPANIC IN AMERICA". THANK YOU.

LINDA CHAVEZ>> THANK YOU.

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JESS>> IN THE BUSINESS OF NETWORK NEWS, THE LIST OF DYNAMIC DUOS IS A FAIRLY SHORT LIST. HUNTLEY AND BRINKLEY AND NOT MUCH ELSE. THAT'S WHY SO MANY OF US HATED TO SEE ANOTHER GREAT PARTNERSHIP SIGN OFF FOR THE LAST TIME BACK IN 1995.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> "I THINK EVERY INSTITUTION BENEFITS FROM CHANGE, EVEN FORCED CHANGE."

JIM LEHRER>> "WE CAN'T REPLACE YOU, BUT COMPENSATE FOR YOUR NOT BEING HERE IS THAT IT'S GOING TO TAX ALL OF OUR IMAGINATIONS AND ALL OF OUR ENERGIES TO DO THAT."

JESS>> ROBIN MACNEIL IS NO LONGER A REGULAR ON THE BROADCAST, BUT HE OCCASIONALLY APPEARS WITH HIS OLD PARTNER, JIM LEHRER.

VAL>> AND TONIGHT THEY ARE BOTH HERE WITH US AND WE'RE VERY PLEASED TO HAVE YOU BOTH FOR THE NEXT FEW MINUTES AT LEAST AND WE CAN COUNT ON ANOTHER MACNEIL-LEHRER REPORT, ALBEIT ONE THAT'S TOO SHORT. WELCOME, BOTH OF YOU, TO LIFE AND TIMES.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> THANK YOU.

JIM LEHRER>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> WE'LL TALK WITH YOU A BIT ABOUT THE CHANGES IN TELEVISION NEWS. EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT LOCAL TELEVISION NEWS AND THE PROBLEMS THAT WE ALL ACKNOWLEDGE ARE THERE. BUT THE NETWORKS HAVE THEIR SHARE OF PROBLEMS TOO, DO THEY NOT?

ROBIN MACNEIL>> THEY CERTAINLY DO. THEY'RE GRADUALLY LOSING AUDIENCE AS THEIR AUDIENCE AGES AND AS THE WHOLE PROLIFERATION OF NEW CHANNELS HAS SPLINTERED THE MARKET, SO EVERYBODY INCLUDING ALL THE CABLE NEWS CHANNELS ARE COMPETING MADLY FOR TINIER AND TINIER PIECES OF THE AUDIENCE.

JIM LEHRER>> AND THAT'S BROUGHT ON A KIND OF REVOLUTION OF TELEVISION NEWS THAT ISN'T OVER YET AND IT'S STILL UNCERTAIN AS TO WHERE IT'S GOING TO END. THE COMPETITION HAS LED TO SOME PEOPLE TURNING NEWS INTO ENTERTAINMENT. OH, MY GOODNESS, WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT FUNNIER, WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT QUICKER, WE'VE GOT TO ENTERTAIN PEOPLE. IN TERMS OF CHANGE --

JESS>> -- NETWORK AS WELL AS LOCAL?

JIM LEHRER>> OH, YES, INDEED. YES, INDEED. WHEN WE STARTED TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS AGO, THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE DOING THE KINDS OF THINGS WE WERE DOING THEN AND ARE DOING NOW. WE'RE THE ONLY ONES STILL DOING IT. WE'RE NOW UNIQUE. WE WERE NOT UNIQUE WHEN WE STARTED.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> YOU KNOW THAT, WHEN YOU HAD THE BIG O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL HERE BACK IN THE 90'S AND THE NETWORKS WOULD, NIGHT AFTER NIGHT, LEAD ON SOME TINY TIDBIT ON O.J. SIMPSON, THE NEWSMEN ON THE NETWORKS WHO WERE PERFECTLY SOUND NEWSMEN KNEW PRETTY WELL THAT WASN'T THE MOST IMPORTANT WORLD-STIRRING EVENT OF THE DAY. THEY WERE TERRIFIED, IF THEY DIDN'T MENTION IT, THAT THE CABLE NEWS CHANNELS WHICH WERE DOING O.J. SIMPSON 24-7 WOULD SEEP AWAY SOME PART OF THEIR AUDIENCE.

JESS>> AND, INDEED, DID.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> AND DID, YEP.

JIM LEHRER>> I BELIEVE THAT THE DECISION OF CNN, IN PARTICULAR, TO RUN THE O.J. TRIAL GAVEL TO GAVEL WILL BE LOOKED BACK UPON AS A MAJOR MOMENT IN TELEVISION NEWS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THE TRIAL WAS GOING TO LAST THAT LONG. THEY JUST THOUGHT THEY'D RUN IT GAVEL TO GAVEL AND THEY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS GOING TO BE THAT BIG A DEAL. WELL, THE RATINGS WENT UP AND, AS ROBIN SAYS, THE NIGHTLY NEWS PROGRAMS ON THE NETWORKS STARTED COVERING THE THING AND SUDDENLY THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF NEWS WENT THROUGH A TRANSFORMATION. BECAUSE NOW THEY WERE SAYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT A TRIAL LIKE THAT IS NEWS EVERY DAY. IT WAS NEWS ON THE DAY THE SHOOTING OCCURRED, THE WHITE BRONCO THING WAS NEWS, WHEN HE WAS INDICTED AND ARRESTED WAS NEWS. ALL THAT SORT OF THING, BUT IT WASN'T NEWS AGAIN -- MAYBE THE MARK FUHRMAN TESTIMONY -- IT WASN'T NEWS AGAIN UNTIL THERE WAS A VERDICT, BUT THEY COVERED IT AS NEWS EVERY DAY.

VAL>> BUT THE KEY THING THAT YOU SAID AND THE THING THAT IS SO HARD TO ARGUE ABOUT IS THE RATINGS WENT UP.

JIM LEHRER>> EXACTLY.

VAL>> WHETHER IT BE CAR CHASES OR WHATEVER, PEOPLE WATCH AND NEWS DIRECTORS RESPOND TO THOSE RATINGS.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> I READ A STORY THE OTHER DAY ABOUT ALL THREE CABLE NEWS CHANNELS CUTTING TO A CAR CHASE HERE IN CALIFORNIA LAST SPRING FOR NINETY MINUTES. NOBODY KNEW WHY THE CAR WAS BEING CHASED, WHAT THE DRIVER'S MOTIVES WERE. IT WASN'T A NEWS STORY IN ANY SENSE, BUT THEIR AUDIENCES DOUBLED.

VAL>> AND THEY COULDN'T JUSTIFY THAT THEY WERE WARNING THEM ABOUT TRAFFIC BECAUSE THEY WERE COVERING SOMETHING IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT CITY (LAUGHTER).

ROBIN MACNEIL>> NO, BUT THE NEWS DIRECTOR OF FOX NEWS SAID IT'S AMAZING HOW MANY PEOPLE THERE ARE OUT THERE TROLLING FOR SOMETHING TO WATCH, CLICK AROUND, AND WILL STAY IF YOU PUT A CAR CHASE ON.

JIM LEHRER>> BUT, SEE, HERE'S WHAT'S HAPPENED. BECAUSE THEY DO CAR CHASES AND BECAUSE THEY DID O.J., WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE AN O.J., THEY HAVE NO AUDIENCE. I MEAN, THEY'RE COMPETING FOR 200,000 PEOPLE DURING THE DAY. THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE WATCHING OUR PROGRAM WHEN WE'RE ON THE AIR THAN ALL THOSE CABLE NEWS NETWORKS PUT TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME. AS I'VE SAID, THEY'VE MADE A NEW DEFINITION OF NEWS THAT THEY CANNOT MEET BECAUSE THERE ISN'T A CAR CHASE EVERY DAY. THERE ISN'T AN O.J. TYPE TRIAL EVERY DAY.

JESS>> WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THE COVERAGE, PARTICULARLY BY THE FOUR COMMERCIAL NETWORKS, OF THE SNIPER SHOOTINGS IN THE D.C. AREA?

JIM LEHRER>> WELL, I LIVE IN WASHINGTON, SO IT'S A LOCAL STORY TO ME.

JESS>> AND OF INTEREST.

JIM LEHRER>> VERY MUCH OF INTEREST AND I WANT TO KNOW EVERY DETAIL. HERE AGAIN, THE PROBLEM THEY HAVE IS THEY HAVE AIRTIME TO FILL AND THEY FILL IT WHETHER THEY HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY OR ANYTHING NEW. THEY JUST POUR IT IN THERE.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> I WATCHED THEM THIS MORNING AT KENNEDY AIRPORT BEFORE COMING OUT HERE REPORTING ON THE LATEST SHOOTING. OFTEN THEY WERE ASKING EACH OTHER TO ANALYZE NOTHING. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN, WHEN THEY WEREN'T CERTAIN THAT IT WAS A FACT, AND WHAT COULD IT MEAN IF IT WERE A FACT?

VAL>> IT'S SPECULATION, IT'S NOT NEWS.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> THEY'VE DEVELOPED A WHOLE NEW TALENT FOR TALKING ABOUT NOTHING FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IN ORDER NOT TO LOSE THE AUDIENCE.

JESS>> TALKING WITH WALTER CRONKITE ONE TIME, HE COMPLAINED ABOUT THE NETWORKS' INTEREST IN COVERING HEALTH NEWS AND DEVELOPMENTS IN MEDICINE. THESE ARE PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE STORIES, HE SAID, BUT THEY HAVE THE MAGAZINE PROGRAMS THAT OUGHT TO BE HANDLING THAT IN DETAIL. 20-20, 60 MINUTES.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> I DON'T AGREE WITH WALTER ON THAT.

JESS>> NO?

ROBIN MACNEIL>> HE'S A LOVELY MAN AND HE'S A FRIEND AND HE ALSO HAPPENS TO BE SOMEBODY WHO WATCHES OUR PROGRAM (LAUGHTER), BUT --

JIM LEHRER>> -- MAYBE HE WON'T SEE THIS. GO AHEAD (LAUGHTER).

ROBIN MACNEIL>> BUT DEFINITIONS OF WHAT IS NEWS MOVE ON AND THEY'VE CERTAINLY MOVED ON IN THE LAST COUPLE OF GENERATIONS. HEALTH NEWS, IF HANDLED RESPONSIBLY AND INTERESTINGLY, THE NEWSHOUR HAS A VERY GOOD UNIT --

JESS>> -- IT'S NOT ONLY INTERESTING, IT'S OF VALUE.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> YEAH, IT IS.

JIM LEHRER>> BUT THE KEY TO IT IS THAT IT HAS TO BE DEALT WITH AS NEWS RATHER THAN AS CONSUMER INFORMATION. IF YOU SAY, OKAY, I'M GOING TO APPLY THE SAME TEST TO HEALTH NEWS THAT I'M GOING TO APPLY TO INTERNATIONAL NEWS AND TO WHATEVER, THEN YOU KNOW WHEN A HEALTH STORY IS NEWS OR NOT. THERE'S A MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH OF SOME KIND, THERE'S A GOVERNMENT DECISION ABOUT A NEW DRUG OR SOMETHING. THAT'S LEGITIMATE NEWS. NEW TREATMENTS OR WHATEVER, THAT IS NEWS. BUT YOU DO IT BECAUSE IT'S NEWS, NOT JUST BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT HEALTH. THAT'S WALTER'S POINT, I THINK.

VAL>> NOW WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF THE DYNAMICS THAT ARE DRAGGING DOWN NEWS, BUT DO YOU THINK THAT 9/11 HAS IMPROVED NEWS COVERAGE, ESPECIALLY PERHAPS INTEREST IN FOREIGN STORIES OR HAS THAT BACKFIRED?

ROBIN MACNEIL>> WELL, IT CERTAINLY FOCUSED AMERICA'S ATTENTION ON THE REST OF THE WORLD WHEREAS THERE HAD BEEN A DRIFT TOWARDS PROVINCIALISM AND DOMESTIC ISSUES --

VAL>> -- CUTTING BACK ON FOREIGN BUREAUS.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> AND, INDEED, A LOT OF NEWS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE CUT BACK ON THEIR FOREIGN COVERAGE. I THINK THE NETWORKS, IN PARTICULAR, WERE ALL PRAISED JUSTIFIABLY FOR THE JOB THEY DID ON SEPTEMBER 11 AND FOR A NUMBER OF WEEKS AFTERWARDS. WITHIN A FEW MONTHS, IT HAD GONE BACK PRETTY WELL TO BUSINESS AS USUAL. WHEN ABC STARTED DICKERING WITH DAVID LETTERMAN TO REPLACE TED KOPPEL, WHICH IS A SERIOUS AND VERY MUCH ADMIRED NEWS PROGRAM LATE IN THE EVENING, BECAUSE LETTERMAN, WHILE GETTING ROUGHLY THE SAME AUDIENCE FIGURES, GETS A MARGINALLY YOUNGER AUDIENCE AND THEREFORE MAKES MORE MONEY FOR THEM, YOU KNEW THAT YOU WERE BACK TO THE DYNAMICS AS USUAL.

JIM LEHRER>> BUT NOW IRAQ AND THE DEBATE AND THE DISCUSSION ABOUT IRAQ HAS MOVED INTEREST BACK AGAIN TO INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS BECAUSE IT MEANS THERE MAY BE A WAR AND WAR IS GOING TO BE FOUGHT BY PEOPLE AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE MAY LIVE NEXT DOOR OR MAYBE IN YOUR FAMILY, SO INTERNATIONAL NEWS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT NOW. OF COURSE, THE SNIPER THING, WHILE IT'S A LOCAL STORY FOR ME AND THOSE OF US WHO LIVE IN WASHINGTON, IT'S A NATIONAL STORY, BUT ALSO IT'S PART OF THE CLIMATE NOW. YOU KNOW, AS SOMEBODY SAID TO ME THE OTHER DAY, WE'RE LOOKING FOR AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WE CAN'T FIND. WE CAN'T FIND OSAMA BIN LADEN. WE CAN'T FIND MULLAH OMAR. WE CAN'T FIND THE ANTHRAX PERSON. NOW WE CAN'T FIND THE SNIPER. THAT IS AN UNSETTLING THING AND IT'S ALL PART OF THE NEW WORLD OF DANGER AND IT GOES WAY BEYOND THE CORNER.

JESS>> ROBIN, DOES THAT MAKE YOU MISS THE DAILY BROADCAST?

ROBIN MACNEIL>> NO, I HAD HAD ENOUGH OF IT, WHICH IS WHY I QUIT (LAUGHTER). I WAS JUST TELLING JIM ON THE WAY OUT HERE IN THE CAR THAT I GOT TIRED OF SEEING MY FACE ON TELEVISION AND I JUST FELT I'D DONE IT LONG ENOUGH. ALSO, I THOUGHT THE KID SHOULD BE GIVEN A CHANCE TO DO IT (LAUGHTER).

JIM LEHRER>> THE PROBLEM WITH THIS KIND OF WORK IS THAT IT IS REALLY HARD. I MEAN, YOU ALL DO IT. YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF ON TV. NEITHER DO WE.

VAL>> HASN'T STOPPED US (LAUGHTER).

JIM LEHRER>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, AT LEAST THAT'S THE AIM. SO IN ORDER TO DO THAT, YOU HAVE TO REALLY WORK AT IT AND, IF YOU DON'T GET A KICK OUT OF IT, YOU HAVE TO GO. I REMEMBER WHEN YOU CALLED ME AND SAID YOU'VE STILL GOT A KICK OUT OF IT, BUT YOU COULD SEE THE TIME COMING FAIRLY SOON WHEN YOU WEREN'T GOING TO GET THE KICK OUT OF IT AND IT WAS JUST TOO MUCH OF A -- NOT STRAIN, THAT'S NOT THE WORD -- JUST TOO MUCH IF YOU DIDN'T GET THAT LITTLE KICK.

VAL>> ARE YOU STILL GETTING A KICK OUT OF IT?

JIM LEHRER>> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY. AS I SAY, I COULDN'T CONTINUE TO DO IT IF I DIDN'T. THE WORK IS TOO HARD.

VAL>> SO WHEN THE TIME COMES. REAL QUICKLY, DO YOU THINK THE MACNEIL-LEHRER NEWSHOUR, ALBEIT WITH A DIFFERENT NAME, WILL BE HERE TWENTY YEARS FROM NOW?

ROBIN MACNEIL>> I HOPE SO. I THINK IT COMES MORE INTO ITS OWN AS IT STAYS DOING WHAT IT DOES AND THE OTHERS AROUND IT CHANGE AND BECOME LESS SERIOUS.

JIM LEHRER>> IT'S LIKE A FINE CALIFORNIA WINE (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) THANKS TO ROBIN MACNEIL AND JIM LEHRER. GENTLEMEN, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

ROBIN MACNEIL>> THANK YOU.

JIM LEHRER>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING. TAKE CARE.

JESS>> FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, GOOD NIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

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AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
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