4/14/03

LC030414

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> IT MAY SAVE THE STATE SOME BIG MONEY, BUT IS IT WISE TO BEGIN RELEASING CONVICTED FELONS BEFORE THEY’VE SERVED THEIR TIME?

RICHARD WORD>> IF YOU HAVE A BURGLAR IN CUSTODY AND HE OR SHE IS SENTENCED FOR NINE MONTHS AND YOU SAY TO THIS BURGLAR WE’RE GOING TO LET YOU OUT EARLY WITHIN SIX MONTHS, HE’S STILL A BURGLAR.

VAL>> AND THEN WE’LL GET A GLIMPSE OF JPL’S NEW EYE IN SPACE, A SUPER TELESCOPE THAT WILL BE LAUNCHED INTO ORBIT LATER THIS MONTH.

JESS>> PLUS, A NEW FACE OF TERRORISM AND WE CAN ONLY HOPE IT NEVER HAPPENS HERE.

VAL>> IT’S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> TIMES ARE HARD AND STATE LAWMAKERS WANT TO CUT SPENDING.

JESS>> BUT SHOULD THEY DO IT BY GIVING CONVICTED FELONS A GET-OUT-OF-JAIL CARD? IT’S CALLED EARLY RELEASE. THE PRACTICE WOULD ONLY APPLY TO NONVIOLENT INMATES, BUT NEWSHOUR CORRESPONDENT, JEFFREY KAYE, TELLS US THERE MAY BE MORE AT STAKE HERE THAN JUST MONEY.

JEFFREY KAYE>> OVER THE LAST TWENTY YEARS, CALIFORNIA STATE PRISONS HAVE BEEN A GROWTH INDUSTRY. AS THE INMATE POPULATION SWELLED, THE STATE BUILT ON AVERAGE ONE PRISON A YEAR. TODAY ABOUT 160,000 INMATES ARE PACKED INTO THIRTY-THREE STATE PRISONS. THE ANNUAL BILL FOR THE OVERCROWDED SYSTEM IS $5 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, BUT WITH THE CALIFORNIA STATE GOVERNMENT FACING ITS BIGGEST DEFICIT IN HISTORY -- IT COULD BE AS MUCH AS $35 BILLION DOLLARS IN THE RED -- MANY LAWMAKERS ARE ADVOCATING WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POLITICALLY UNTHINKABLE NOT LONG AGO, CUTTING THE BUDGET FOR PRISONS.

SENATOR GLORIA ROMERO>> THE BUDGET GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMINE THE SUCCESS AND THE FAILURE OF OUR CORRECTIONAL SYSTEM.

JEFFREY KAYE>> CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR, GLORIA ROMERO, OF LOS ANGELES CHAIRS A NEW LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE EVALUATING CALIFORNIA’S PRISON SYSTEM. SHE SAYS IT’S TIME TO SCRUTINIZE PRISONS SINCE JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER CALIFORNIA STATE PROGRAM IS BEING CUT.

SENATOR GLORIA ROMERO>> IT’S NOT JUST CUTTING. IT IS LITERALLY SLASHING SERVICES FOR POOR PEOPLE, FOR CHILDREN, FOR THE ELDERLY. HOW DO WE EXPLAIN THE SLASHING OF THESE SERVICES AT A TIME WHEN ONE DEPARTMENT IN PARTICULAR, CORRECTIONS, IS ACTUALLY ENJOYING AN INCREASE IN FUNDING?

JEFFREY KAYE>> ROMERO IS PARTICULARLY CRITICAL OF WHAT SHE CONSIDERS A BROKEN AND COSTLY PAROLE SYSTEM. CALIFORNIA RECYCLES INMATES AT THE HIGHEST RATES IN THE NATION. ON A RECENT MORNING, AT THE STORIED SAN QUENTIN PRISON IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, MEN RELEASED ON PAROLE BOARDED A VAN BOUND FOR FREEDOM. BUT BASED ON STATISTICS, MOST WILL SOON BE BACK. SOON AFTER ONE GROUP OF INMATES LEFT, ANOTHER ARRIVED, ALL OF THEM PAROLEES BEING RE-ADMITTED, LIKE JAMES MURPHY. TWENTY DAYS AFTER BEING RELEASED ON PAROLE, HE WAS BACK IN FOR PETTY THEFT.

JAMES MURPHY>> THEY HAD NO PLACE FOR ME TO GO. AS SOON AS I HIT THE STREETS, I HAD NOWHERE TO GO, NOWHERE.

>> WHAT’S YOUR LAST NAME? WHAT’S YOUR NUMBER?

JEFFREY KAYE>> TWO-THIRDS OF THE INMATES IN CALIFORNIA STATE PRISONS RETURN WHILE ON PAROLE, MANY WITH NEW CHARGES, MOST BECAUSE THEY VIOLATED PAROLE CONDITIONS. HOUSING THEM IS COSTLY, AN AVERAGE OF $28,500 A YEAR FOR EACH INMATE. TO SAVE MONEY, SOME DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS FAVOR PROGRAMS THAT WOULD RETURN FEWER PAROLEES TO PRISON. THEY ALSO WANT TO RELEASE MANY NON-VIOLENT CONVICTS ONE MONTH EARLY AND OTHERS FOR GOOD BEHAVIOR. STEPHEN GREEN SPEAKS FOR THE CALIFORNIA YOUTH AND ADULT CORRECTIONAL AGENCY AND FOR THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR, GRAY DAVIS.

GRAY DAVIS>> SO I PROPOSE THIS YEAR THAT WE PUT EVEN MORE POLICE OFFICERS AND SHERIFF DEPUTIES ON THE STREETS.

JEFFREY KAYE>> DAVIS HAS LONG PRIDED HIMSELF ON HIS UNCOMPROMISING TOUGH-ON-CRIME POLICIES AND HAS COME OUT IN STRONG OPPOSITION TO EARLY RELEASE PROGRAMS.

STEPHEN GREEN>> I THINK THE DEBATE IS REALLY FRAMED WRONGLY. SENTENCING IS WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT LETTING PEOPLE OUT EARLY. IF WE HAVE SENTENCING LAWS THAT ARE UNJUST, THEN THOSE LAWS OUGHT TO BE REPEALED AS A MATTER OF FAIRNESS. BUT SIMPLY TO SAY, WELL, IN GOOD TIMES WE CAN HAVE TOUGH SENTENCING LAWS AND IN POOR TIMES WE’LL HAVE TO LET THE CROOKS OUT, THAT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.

JEFFREY KAYE>> GREEN SAYS EARLY RELEASE PROGRAMS WON’T WORK. HE POINTS TO KENTUCKY WHICH RELEASED NEARLY NINE HUNDRED PRISONERS EARLY, BUT AFTER REVELATIONS THAT NEW PAROLEES HAD BEEN CHARGED WITH BANK ROBBERY AND RAPE, PUBLIC OUTRAGE FORCED AN EMBARRASSED GOVERNOR TO CANCEL THE PROGRAM. IN CALIFORNIA, LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT EARLY RELEASE PROPOSALS. POLICE IN THE CITY OF OAKLAND GRAPPLING WITH THE HIGH CRIME RATE HAVE LINKED PAROLEES TO HALF OF LAST YEAR’S 113 MURDERS. OAKLAND’S POLICE CHIEF, RICHARD WORD, SAYS THAT UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM, AN EARLY RELEASE PROGRAM COULD BE A COSTLY MISTAKE.

RICHARD WORD>> IT JUST DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO ME. IF YOU HAVE A BURGLAR IN CUSTODY AND HE OR SHE IS SENTENCED FOR NINE MONTHS AND YOU SAY TO THIS BURGLAR WE’RE GOING TO LET YOU OUT EARLY WITHIN SIX MONTHS, HE’S STILL A BURGLAR IN MY VIEW. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ENSURE THAT THIS PERSON WOULD NOT RE-OFFEND? PROBABLY NOT MUCH, AND THAT’S THE QUESTION WE SHOULD ASK.

JEFFREY KAYE>> THAT QUESTION IS REKINDLING AN OLD DEBATE ABOUT PUNISHMENT VERSUS REHABILITATION FOR PRISONERS. CONVICTS SAY THE EMPHASIS ON PUNISHMENT TRANSLATES TO TOO FEW PROGRAMS ON THE INSIDE TO PREPARE INMATES FOR RELEASE AND TOO LITTLE ASSISTANCE ON THE OUTSIDE FOR PAROLEES.

FREDERICK SMITH>> AND ONCE THEY’RE ON PAROLE, THERE’S VIRTUALLY NOTHING OUT THERE TO GIVE THEM AN INCENTIVE TO STAY OUT. THE SYSTEM IS SORT OF SET UP TO BE SELF-DEFEATING TO KEEP A PERPETUAL REVOLVING DOOR GOING OF PRISONERS.

KEN RUSSO>> PAROLE IS DESIGNED TO EASE YOUR TRANSITION BACK TO PRISON. IT’S NOT DESIGNED FOR YOUR TRANSITION INTO SOCIETY. YOU CAN’T GIVE A MAN $200 AND SAY, OKAY, THERE YOU GO. TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS NOW.

EVANS YANCY>> THERE’S NO REHABILITATION NO MORE. IT’S DESIGNED NOW TO JUST WAREHOUSE PEOPLE. THIS IS NOTHING BUT ONE BIG WAREHOUSE AND THERE AIN’T NOBODY GETTING FAT BUT THE GOVERNMENT.

>> WHAT WE’RE GOING TO DO TODAY, WHICH SOME OF YOU KNOW, IS WE’RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOU CAN GET OFF PAROLE.

JEFFREY KAYE>> PAROLE AGENTS WHO SUPERVISE RELEASED CONVICTS HAVE LOW EXPECTATIONS. IN OAKLAND, ONE OF THE FEW EXISTING STATE PROGRAMS FOR PAROLEES TRIES TO MATCH UP FORMER INMATES WITH JOBS, HOUSING AND DRUG TREATMENT PROGRAMS.

D.R. ELLIOTT>> SOME OF YOU GUYS I KNOW. YOU’VE BEEN ON MY CASELOAD. SOME OF YOU GUYS I’VE EVEN ARRESTED IN YOUR HOMES.

JEFFREY KAYE>> BUT PAROLE AGENT, D.R. ELLIOTT, A VETERAN PRISON GUARD, SAYS WITHOUT MORE JOBS AND ASSISTANCE FOR EX-CONS, THE REVOLVING DOOR WILL KEEP TURNING. FOR HIS OWN CASELOAD, ONLY TWENTY-FIVE OUT OF SEVENTY-TWO INMATES GOT OFF PAROLE.

JEFFREY KAYE>> TWENTY-FIVE OUT OF SEVENTY-TWO DOESN’T SOUND LIKE A GREAT GRADE.

D.R. ELLIOTT>> YOU KNOW, TO YOU IT DOESN’T, BUT LIKE I SAID BEFORE, IF I GET ONE TO STAY OUT, I’VE DONE ALL RIGHT BECAUSE HE’S GOING TO HELP SOMEBODY ELSE AND SOMEBODY ELSE. AND WHAT HE’S GOING TO DO, HE’S GOING TO TALK TO HIS KIDS. HE’S GOING TO TALK TO SOMEBODY ELSE’S KIDS AND THAT’S WHERE WE START AT AGAIN. WE START AT THE KIDS, WE WORK OUR WAY UP.

>> YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE TO MULTIPLY HERE AND I’M GOING TO PUT ONE OF YOU . . .

JEFFREY KAYE>> CALIFORNIA PRISON OFFICIALS SAY THEY WOULD PROVIDE MORE REHABILITATION IF THEY HAD MORE MONEY. THE FEW EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS THAT DO EXIST IN CALIFORNIA PRISONS ARE BEING CUT. AT THE SAME TIME, THE PRISON BUDGET IS INCREASING FOR SUCH EXPENSES AS MEDICAL CARE, PRISON MAINTENANCE AND SALARIES FOR PRISON GUARDS.

JESS>> AS WE POINTED OUT, THE FOCUS IS ON RELEASING NON-VIOLENT INMATES, BUT THE STATE IS ALSO CONSIDERING PLANS THAT WOULD INCLUDE ELDERLY PRISONERS AS WELL AS THOSE WHO ARE INFIRM.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, THE LATEST SEISMIC REPORT ON THE BELMONT LEARNING CENTER ADDS FURTHER UNCERTAINTY TO AN ALREADY PARALYZED PROJECT. IS THIS FINALLY THE END? DETAILS ON TUESDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE’S TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES “WHAT DO YOU THINK?” POLL. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND WEIGH IN ON THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: SHOULD SEISMIC FAULTS KILL THE BELMONT LEARNING CENTER? WE’LL COUNT YOUR RESPONSES AND REPORT THE RESULTS ON TOMORROW NIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> WE MAY BE BREATHING A BIT OF A SIGH OF RELIEF NOW THAT THE WAR IN IRAQ SEEMS TO BE WINDING DOWN TO SOME EXTENT, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO WAR ON TERRORISM, THERE IS NO V-DAY, NO VICTORY DAY. TERRORIST THREATS WILL BE WITH US FOR DECADES AND EXPERTS TELL US THE BEST THING WE CAN DO IS BE PREPARED.

VAL>> BUT PREPARED FOR WHAT? THAT’S WHAT A NEW PBS SERIES IS ADDRESSING. IT IS CALLED “AVOIDING ARMAGEDDON”. THE PROGRAM EXPLORES THE RISKS OF DOOMSDAY ATTACKS AND THE SERIES IS PRODUCED BY TED TURNER AND NARRATED BY WALTER CRONKITE. HERE’S A BRIEF EXCERPT.

WALTER CRONKITE>> “IN OCTOBER OF 2002, THE UNITED STATES ACCUSED NORTH KOREA OF CONDUCTING A SECRET NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM. NORTH KOREA’S LEADER, KIM JONG-IL, STUNNED THE WORLD BY ADMITTING THAT THEY WERE ENRICHING URANIUM FOR USE IN NUCLEAR WEAPONS. HE DEFIANTLY PROCLAIMED THAT THEY HAD EVERY INTENTION OF BECOMING A NUCLEAR POWER.

IN RESPONSE, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION PRESSED ITS ALLIES TO SUSPEND SHIPMENTS OF FUEL OIL TO NORTH KOREA AND DEMANDED AN IMMEDIATE HALT TO ITS WEAPONS PROGRAM. INSTEAD, NORTH KOREA EXPELLED INTERNATIONAL WEAPONS INSPECTORS, REMOVED THE MONITORING CAMERAS AT ITS NUCLEAR PLANTS, RESTARTED A PLUTONIUM REACTOR AND WITHDREW FORM THE NUCLEAR NONPROLIFERATION TREATY. THEY HAVE TESTED LONG-RANGE MISSILES THAT COULD CARRY A NUCLEAR WARHEAD, BUT THE DANGER FROM NORTH KOREA DOES NOT END THERE.

GRAHAM ALLISON>> NORTH KOREA IS A STATE WHICH HAS DEMONSTRATED FOR THE LAST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS THAT IT WILL SELL ANYTHING IT HAS TO ANYBODY FOR MONEY. IT’S THE MOST PROMISCUOUS PROLIFERATOR ON EARTH, SO NORTH KOREA COULD BECOME THE “NUCLEAR WEAPONS R US”, THE SALE SHOP FOR NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO TERRORISTS AND TYRANTS AROUND THE WORLD.”

JESS>> WITH US NOW IS DR. NANCY GIBBS, A FAMILY PHYSICIAN AND A BOARD MEMBER OF “PHYSICIANS FOR SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY”, THE GROUP WHICH WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 1985. THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT THAT THAT OFFERS ANY GREAT COMFORT TO US. CAN YOU?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> NOT REALLY. I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ACTUALLY ARE POTENTIALLY AT RISK FOR EITHER BEING HIT BY A NUCLEAR BOMB THAT WOULD BE EXPLODED IN THE CITY, SOMETHING CALLED A DIRTY BOMB, A RADIATION BOMB, OR SAN ONOFRE IS A TARGET THAT COULD BE USED BY TERRORISTS.

VAL>> OKAY, SO LET’S TAKE THOSE ONE AT A TIME. YOU REALLY THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, A BOMB COULD BE LOBBED OVER AND JUST HIT LOS ANGELES OR WASHINGTON? LIKE FROM WHERE? WHAT COUNTRY IS MOST LIKELY? RUSSIA? NORTH KOREA?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> I THINK PROBABLY THE MOST LIKELY THING WOULD BE SOMEBODY BRINGING SOMETHING INTO THE CITY COVERTLY.

VAL>> I SEE.

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> IF YOU THINK OF ALL THE STORAGE CONTAINERS THAT COME IN THE SHIPPING, THAT’S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SECURITY IS LOOKING AT.

JESS>> THIS MOST LIKELY WITH A DIRTY BOMB, I WOULD ASSUME?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WELL, A DIRTY BOMB IS SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY COULD GET CREATED HERE EASILY WITH MATERIALS THAT A TERRORIST COULD GET HIS HANDS ON IN MANY WAYS.

VAL>> EXPLAIN WHAT A DIRTY BOMB IS. WHY DO THEY CALL IT A DIRTY BOMB?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> A DIRTY BOMB WOULD BE A BOMB WHERE YOU USE RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL, SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD GET FROM A MEDICAL HOSPITAL THAT YOU USE FOR CANCER TREATMENTS OR THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT YOU WOULD WRAP AROUND NORMAL EXPLOSIVES LIKE TNT.

JESS>> AND THAT WOULD BE A PSYCHOLOGICAL THREAT MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, WOULDN’T IT?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> RIGHT. I THINK THE ACTUAL LONG-TERM EFFECTS FROM THE RADIATION COULD AFFECT A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT THE PANIC THAT WOULD ENSUE IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT WAS DETONATED IS TREMENDOUS.

VAL>> YOU ALSO MENTIONED SAN ONOFRE. TELL US WHAT THE RISKS ARE THERE. HOW ARE WE VULNERABLE?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WELL, SAN ONOFRE, I THINK IT WAS BACK IN 1981, ONE OF THOSE AGENCIES --

VAL>> -- NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PERHAPS?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> PERHAPS, HAD A REPORT THAT SAID THAT IF IT WAS ATTACKED BY JUST A CAR BOMB, WE COULD HAVE 120,000 LIVES LOST.

JESS>> AND IT SITS RIGHT ON INTERSTATE 5.

VAL>> VERY ACCESSIBLE, VERY EXPOSED IN A WAY.

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> SO EVEN THOUGH SECURITY HAS INCREASED SINCE 9/11, IT'S STILL AT RISK BECAUSE THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF NUCLEAR MATERIAL THERE AND THEN THERE'S SPENT FUEL THAT THEY COULD GO AFTER AS WELL.

JESS>> AND, IN FACT, THE SPENT FUEL IS PROBABLY THE MOST VULNERABLE, WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> I THINK IT'S THE LEAST PROTECTED.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT SAN ONOFRE, IF IT WERE TO BE BLOWN UP OR SOMETHING, THERE IS AN ESTIMATED 130,000 FATALITIES AND PEOPLE WITHIN FIVE HUNDRED MILES WOULD BE AT RISK. THIS IS RIGHT NEAR CAMP PENDLETON AS WELL. IS THAT -- THESE SCENARIOS JUST SEEM OVERWHELMING. HOW ARE WE PREPARED TO DEAL WITH THIS?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT, AND I KEEP HAVING THIS IMAGE OF THESE SMART BOMBS THAT GO INTO BAGHDAD AND CREATE THESE GIGANTIC HOLES, THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE BOMBS, NO MATTER HOW SMART A NUCLEAR DEVICE IS, IT HAS FAR-REACHING EFFECTS. IT REALLY IS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION BECAUSE THE RADIATION THAT COMES FROM THAT IS TOXIC IN THE MIDDLE CIRCLE, IN THE OUTER CIRCLE AND IN THE LONG-TERM.

JESS>> GIVEN THE PICTURE YOU PAINT, SHOULD NOT THE RESIDENTS NEAR SAN ONOFRE BE RECEIVING SOME SORT OF TREATMENT?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WELL, CURRENTLY THERE IS A PROGRAM THAT IS ALLOWING PEOPLE WITHIN A TWENTY-MILE RADIUS TO GET --

JESS>> -- THAT'S WHAT? THE IODINE --

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> -- POTASSIUM IODIDE TABLETS, WHICH YOU NEED TO TAKE WITHIN A FEW HOURS OF A LARGE EXPOSURE TO RADIATION.

JESS>> BUT HAVE THOSE BEEN DISTRIBUTED?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> THAT, I'M NOT SURE. I KNOW IT'S BEEN APPROVED. I DON'T THINK THE PLAN FOR HOW THEY ACTUALLY GET DISTRIBUTED HAS HAPPENED YET.

VAL>> HOW EFFECTIVE ARE THEY?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WELL, IT PROTECTS YOU AGAINST CANCER OF YOUR THYROID GLAND PARTICULARLY. IT DOES NOT REALLY DO ANYTHING TO PREVENT YOU FROM THE OTHER HORRIFIC EFFECTS OF RADIATION EXPOSURE.

JESS>> WHAT'S THE ULTIMATE ANSWER? WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE WAR ON TERRORISM, NOBODY SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT WE'LL EVER HAVE THAT RESOLVED. WE JUST CONSTANTLY HAVE TO BE ON GUARD.

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> WE CONSTANTLY HAVE TO BE ON GUARD, BUT REALLY IN MY PHILOSOPHY AND THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE PHYSICIANS FOR SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY IS THAT YOU HAVE TO PREVENT WHAT YOU CANNOT CURE. YOU CANNOT CURE A NUCLEAR ACCIDENT OF ANY KIND, SO WE NEED TO WORK TO DECREASE THE ABILITY FOR ANYONE TO GET THEIR HANDS ON NUCLEAR MATERIALS AND WE NEED TO DECREASE THE RISKS OF EVEN US HAVING OUR NUCLEAR WEAPONS AT HAIR-TRIGGER RELEASE.

JESS>> AND EVEN WITH THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, YOUR ORGANIZATION STILL DOESN'T GET THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE POLITICAL COMMUNITY?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> NO. I THINK OUR JOB REALLY IS TO TRY TO KEEP REMINDING THE PUBLIC AND PROVIDING EDUCATION TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT THE HEALTH EFFECTS OF WHAT THESE KINDS OF BOTH WEAPONS AND ENERGY PRODUCTION COULD HAVE ON US.

VAL>> SO YOU WORK ON BOTH THE INTERNATIONAL AND FEDERAL LEVEL TO ACTUALLY TRY TO CHANGE POLICY? I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, NORTH KOREA IS NO LONGER A PART OF THE NUCLEAR NONPROLIFERATION TREATY. THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN REALLY DO ABOUT THAT.

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> RIGHT. SO WE WORK ON THAT LEVEL, AT A LOBBYING LEVEL, AND THEN WE WORK ON AN EDUCATIONAL LEVEL BECAUSE WE NEED TO HAVE, YOU KNOW, ALL OF US AS THE PUBLIC NEEDING TO REMEMBER THE POWER OF WHAT NUCLEAR RADIATION DOES. I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LONG TIME, MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS, SINCE HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI AND PEOPLE, OVER TIME, FORGET THE HORRIFIC IMPLICATIONS THAT THAT BOMB HAD.

JESS>> SO YOUR MESSAGE IS A WARNING?

DR. NANCY GIBBS>> IT'S A WARNING, BUT WE HAVE THE POWER TO STEP BACK AND PUT POLITICAL PRESSURE ON OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS TO WORK ON PROGRAMS THAT WILL DECREASE THE PROLIFERATION OF THESE AND DECREASE THE AVAILABILITY OF IT TO GET INTO THE WRONG HANDS.

VAL>> DR. NANCY GIBBS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AND CONVEYING THAT MESSAGE. WE WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT "AVOIDING ARMAGEDDON" AIRS ON FOUR CONSECUTIVE EVENINGS BEGINNING TONIGHT AT 9:00 P.M. RIGHT HERE ON KCET.

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JESS>> LATER THIS MONTH, SCIENTISTS AT THE JET PROPULSION LAB IN PASADENA WILL GET A RARE TREAT. THAT'S WHEN NASA WILL LAUNCH A NEW EYE IN SPACE. IT'S AN ORBITING TELESCOPE THAT WILL VIEW THE UNIVERSE THROUGH INFRARED LIGHT. IT'S CALLED "SIRTF", SHORT FOR SPACE INFRARED TELESCOPE FACILITY AND, IF ALL GOES AS PLANNED, IT WILL GIVE ASTRONOMERS A VIEW OF THE UNIVERSE THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE FROM EARTH.

VAL>> AND JOINING US NOW IS DR. MICHELLE THALLER. SHE IS A JPL SCIENTIST AND MANAGER OF THE SIRTF EDUCATION PROGRAM. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

MICHELLE THALLER>> OH, VERY GLAD TO BE HERE. THANK YOU.

JESS>> SO YOUR PRINCIPAL JOB IS SIMPLY TO TELL US ABOUT THIS?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. IT'S AN UNUSUAL TELESCOPE BECAUSE, UNLIKE MOST OF THE TELESCOPES YOU'RE USED TO THINKING ABOUT, IT DOESN'T SEE INVISIBLE LIGHT. JUST LIKE YOU WERE SAYING, THAT OUR EYES DON'T DETECT THIS KIND OF LIGHT. SO IT'S AN INTERESTING JOB TO TELL THE PUBLIC THAT WE'RE BUILDING AN ENTIRE HUGE SPACE OBSERVATORY THAT DOESN'T SEE ANY SORT OF LIGHT THAT WE'VE SEEN ACTUALLY WITH OUR EYES.

VAL>> IT DETECTS INFRARED LIGHT COMING THROUGH THE UNIVERSE, RIGHT?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> WHAT IS INFRARED LIGHT?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WE NORMALLY THINK OF INFRARED LIGHT AS BEING HEAT LIGHT. WHEN YOU FEEL THAT SOMETHING IS WARM, YOU'RE DETECTING INFRARED ENERGY. OF COURSE, WITH MILITARY APPLICATIONS, NIGHT VISION CAMERAS, WE'RE USED TO BEING ABLE TO SENSE HEAT RADIATION COMING FROM OBJECTS AND MAKE AN IMAGE OF THEM.

VAL>> SO THE TELESCOPE WILL ORBIT, WHAT, THE EARTH? OR BEYOND THE EARTH? OR WILL IT STAY MORE OR LESS CLOSE TO THE EARTH?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, THE CASE OF SIRTF, SIRTF NEEDS TO OPERATE IN VERY COLD TEMPERATURES, ALMOST FOUR HUNDRED DEGREES BELOW ZERO. THE WAY I ALWAYS EXPLAIN IT IS THAT, WHEN YOU HOLD YOUR FACE UP TO THE SKY, YOU CAN ACTUALLY FEEL THE HEAT FROM THE SUN, BUT IMAGINE TRYING TO FEEL THE HEAT FROM THE STARS. VERY, VERY COLD. SO THE TELESCOPE ITSELF HAS TO BE AT A VERY LOW TEMPERATURE TO DETECT THAT HEAT.

VAL>> SO IT WOULD HAVE TO BE REALLY COLD BECAUSE THEN IT CAN DETECT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST WARM, TINY LITTLE DEGREE OF HEAT?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT.

JESS>> SO IS THIS AN EXAMPLE OF PURE SCIENCE OR DOES IT HAVE PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, USUALLY, WHATEVER NASA DOES HAS SOME KIND OF PRACTICAL SPIN-OFF. IN THE CASE OF SIRTF, WE'VE DEVELOPED EVEN BETTER INFRARED DETECTORS THAN WE'VE EVER HAD BEFORE, SO PERHAPS THERE WILL BE AN APPLICATION COMING IN OUR MORE GENERAL COMMERCIAL WORLD. BUT IN A WAY, IT'S ALSO PURE SCIENCE AS WELL. WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING TO SEE THE VERY EARLIEST GALAXIES THAT FORMED IN THE UNIVERSE. WE'RE GOING TO BE TRYING TO DETECT COLD DUST THAT DRIFTS BETWEEN THE STARS. SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PURE ASTRONOMY QUESTIONS WE'LL BE ANSWERING WITH THIS AS WELL.

VAL>> NOW WHAT IS IT WE'RE SEEING HERE? IS THIS ANIMATION OF THE SATELLITE THAT WILL BE CARRYING THE TELESCOPE?

MICHELLE THALLER>> RIGHT. THIS IS THE SPACECRAFT. AS YOU CAN SEE, IT'S SHOWING YOU WHAT THE SKY LOOKS LIKE TO SIRTF IN THE INFRARED. HERE WE HAVE ANOTHER -- I BELIEVE THIS IS A SIMULATION OF A CLUSTER OF STARS THAT IS FORMING. THIS IS A WONDERFUL THING FOR INFRARED BECAUSE INFRARED WILL BE ABLE TO SEE THROUGH DUST CLOUDS THAT STARS FORM IN. SO WE'RE GOING TO GET ONE OF OUR FIRST REALLY GOOD GLIMPSES OF HOW STARS AND PLANETS FORM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

VAL>> SO IT CAN SEE THROUGH DUST BECAUSE THE LIGHT IS PICKING UP HEAT?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. THE HEAT LIGHT CAN GO RIGHT THROUGH THE DUST, SO IT'S GOING TO LET US SEE INTO AREAS OF THE UNIVERSE WE'VE NEVER SEEN DIRECTLY INTO BEFORE.

VAL>> THAT'S AMAZING. WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO LEARN?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, THE WHOLE PROCESS AS TO HOW STARS AND PLANETS REALLY FORM IS QUITE MYSTERIOUS. NORMALLY, WE ONLY SEE STARS WHEN THEY FINALLY BREAK OUT OF THEIR COCOON'S DUST AND THAT CAN TAKE MILLIONS OF YEARS. SO WE'RE GOING TO GET VERY GOOD IDEAS ABOUT HOW STARS AND PLANETS FORM. ALSO, WE'RE LOOKING FOR COLD DUST THAT ORBITS STARS THAT WE BELIEVE PLANETS FORM OUT OF. WE ALSO WANT TO BE ABLE TO TEST THE CHEMISTRY OF THESE DISCS OF DUST AND SEE WHERE PLANETS MIGHT BE FORMING IN THEM.

JESS>> NOW THIS IS AN UNMANNED SPACE PROBE?

MICHELLE THALLER>> YES, INDEED.

JESS>> IS THIS TO SOME EXTENT A RESPONSE TO -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME ASK, IF IT WERE A MANNED OR PERSONED --

VAL>> -- (LAUGHTER) THANK YOU, JESS.

JESS>> -- WOULD WE LEARN MORE THAN WE'LL LEARN WITH AN UNMANNED SPACE PROBE?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, IN THIS CASE, THIS IS ONE OF NASA'S GREAT OBSERVATORIES LIKE THE HUBBLE AND IT'S DESIGNED TO BE PUT IN SPACE FOR A VERY LONG TIME. IN THE CASE OF SIRTF, IT'S NOT EVEN GOING TO ORBIT THE EARTH. WE'RE GOING TO PUSH IT OFF INTO SPACE AND LET IT GET VERY, VERY FAR AWAY.

JESS>> SO IT'S A MOOT QUESTION WHETHER IT'S MANNED OR NOT.

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. THERE REALLY WILL BE NO WAY TO PUT PEOPLE ON THE SPACECRAFT BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO RETURN TO EARTH.

VAL>> IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO HAVE PEOPLE ON IT.

MICHELLE THALLER>> EXACTLY.

JESS>> AND THIS IS NOT, THEN, A RESPONSE TO THE SHUTTLE TRAGEDY?

MICHELLE THALLER>> OH, NO, INDEED. SIRTF HAS BEEN IN DEVELOPMENT FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS. LIKE I SAID, NASA HAS SEVERAL ORBITING OBSERVATORIES THAT ALLOW US TO SEE THE UNIVERSE IN MANY DIFFERENT WAVELENGTHS OF LIGHT AND WE GET A VERY DIFFERENT PICTURE OF THE UNIVERSE AS WELL.

VAL>> THAT'S RIGHT BECAUSE THERE'S ONE UP THERE THAT PICKS UP X-RAYS?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. CHANDRA.

VAL>> ONE PICKS UP -- WHAT ARE THE OTHER ONES?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, THERE WAS ONE THAT DID GAMMA RAY. IT'S CALLED THE COMPTON GAMMA RAY OBSERVATORY, WHICH HAS ENDED ITS MISSION. THEN, OF COURSE, THERE IS HUBBLE WHICH SEES INVISIBLE LIGHT.

JESS>> THESE ARE INFRARED IMAGES, RIGHT?

MICHELLE THALLER>> EXACTLY. HERE WE'RE LOOKING AT AN INFRARED IMAGE OF THE CONSTELLATION ORION. YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH ORION FROM THE NIGHT SKY. THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE THROUGH INFRARED CAMERAS. EVERY NIGHT ALL OF THAT IS SHINING IN THE NIGHT SKY. HERE'S THE ORION NEBULA, WHICH IS A DUSTY COCOON WHERE STARS ARE FORMING. WHEN WE GO TO THE INFRARED, LOOK AT ALL THOSE STARS SHINING THROUGH THERE. THOSE ARE STARS SHINING THROUGH THE DUST. THEY'RE JUST FORMING. THEY'RE STILL IN THAT CLOUD, BUT WITH THE INFRARED TELESCOPE, YOU CAN SEE THAT DIRECTLY.

VAL>> THAT'S BEAUTIFUL. NOW ARE THESE IMAGES GOING TO BE PUT ON THE WEBSITE OR SOMETHING FOR PEOPLE TO SEE?

MICHELLE THALLER>> OH, YES. WE'LL BE DEFINITELY PUSHING THE IMAGES OUT TO THE PUBLIC TO SEE THEM AND SEE THE DATA.

VAL>> WILL IT TAKE A LONG TIME FOR THEM TO BE RECEIVED?

MICHELLE THALLER>> WELL, IT WON'T TAKE LONG FOR THE IMAGES TO BE RECEIVED. THE ONE THING THAT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS OBSERVATORY IS THAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME TO COOL DOWN, SEVERAL MONTHS. WHEN WE LAUNCH IT, THE DETECTORS HAVE TO ACTUALLY COOL DOWN, LIKE I SAID, TO ALMOST FOUR HUNDRED DEGREES BELOW ZERO. THAT'S GOING TO TAKE A COUPLE OF MONTHS. UNFORTUNATELY, WE WON'T HAVE IMAGES IMMEDIATELY AVAILABLE. BUT WE'RE PLANNING A PRESS CONFERENCE A COUPLE OF MONTHS AFTER THE LAUNCH AND THEN WE'LL DEFINITELY HAVE IMAGES AVAILABLE.

VAL>> NOW HOW LONG IS THIS GOING TO LAST? BECAUSE I KNOW THESE THINGS DON'T LAST FOREVER. THEY HAVE A CERTAIN LIFESPAN?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. TO MAKE IT THAT COLD, WE NEED TO CARRY LIQUID HELIUM AND LIQUID HELIUM IS JUST A COUPLE OF DEGREES ABOVE ABSOLUTE ZERO, VERY, VERY COLD, AND THAT COOLS THE DETECTORS. BUT ONCE THE LIQUID HELIUM IS GONE, THE DETECTORS WILL WARM UP AND THEY WON'T BE AS SENSITIVE. WE'RE NOT REALLY SURE. IT DEPENDS ON HOW EFFICIENTLY WE USE THE SPACECRAFT AND WE'RE BEING VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT. TWO AND A HALF YEARS WAS OUR MINIMUM REQUIREMENT, BUT WE'RE HOPING TO GO TO MAYBE FIVE YEARS. WHO KNOWS, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THAT.

VAL>> WOW, THAT'S AMAZING.

JESS>> AGAIN, TO GO BACK TO THE MANNED AND UNMANNED ISSUE, HUBBLE, THANKS TO MANNED MISSIONS THAT REPAIRED THE HUBBLE, THIS ONE YOU'VE GOT TO GET RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT. WHEN SIRTF WAS ORIGINALLY PLANNED, IT WAS MEANT TO BE A SHUTTLE PAYLOAD THAT COULD BE SERVICED BY THE ASTRONAUTS AND THE ASTRONAUTS COULD REFILL THE HELIUM AND GIVE IT A LONGER LIFETIME. BUT BECAUSE OF BUDGET CUTS, WE HAD TO GET A LITTLE BIT MORE CLEVER ABOUT HOW IT WAS DONE. SO INSTEAD, WE DESIGNED IT TO SORT OF KEEP ITSELF COOL AND NOT NEED RE-COOLING BY THE ASTRONAUTS.

VAL>> THAT'S AMAZING. AGAIN, THIS IS THE FOURTH SATELLITE YOU CALL IN A FAMILY OF SATELLITES THAT ARE PART OF THE GREAT OBSERVATORY MISSION?

MICHELLE THALLER>> THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> SO THIS IS THE FINAL, I GUESS, SIBLING TO JOIN THE OTHERS?

MICHELLE THALLER>> YES. WHEN WE'RE FINALLY READY TO LAUNCH, WE'LL BE JOINING HUBBLE AND CHANDRA THAT'S UP THERE NOW. WE ALSO THINK OF OURSELVES AS PART OF THE ORIGINS PROGRAM AT NASA, WHICH IS A LARGE SEARCH FOR LITERALLY WHAT OUR ASTRONOMICAL ORIGINS ARE, WHERE DO WE COME FROM, AND ARE WE ALONE? SIRTF IS GOING TO HELP US IDENTIFY WHERE PLANETS ARE FORMING IN SOLAR SYSTEMS OF THEIR OWN.

JESS>> WE HOPE YOU'RE AS SUCCESSFUL AS YOU ARE ENTHUSIASTIC (LAUGHTER).

MICHELLE THALLER>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> OUR THANKS TO DR. MICHELLE THALLER. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON SIRTF AND OTHER TELESCOPES IN SPACE, CHECK THE WEBSITE ON YOUR SCREEN, JPL.NASA.GOV.

VAL>> AND CHECK OUT OUR NEW AND IMPROVED WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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