4/15/03

LC030415

JESS MARLOW>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

IT SITS ATOP A MAJOR FAULT LINE, BUT SHOULD L.A. UNIFIED ROLL THE DICE AND FINISH THE BELMONT LEARNING CENTER?

DAVID ABEL>> WE'VE LOST TWO GENERATIONS OF STUDENTS SINCE WE PROMISED THIS PROCESS. THEY’VE GONE THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL IN AN OVERCROWDED EXISTING BELMONT THAT SITS ON THE SAME CONDITIONS THAT THE NEW BELMONT SAT ON, BUT NOBODY SEEMED TO WORRY ABOUT THEM.

JESS>> AND THEN A LOOK AT HOW IRAQI-AMERICANS FROM SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA MAY HELP TO REBUILD THEIR COUNTRY. TONIGHT WE’LL HEAR FROM THE SON OF A FORMER IRAQI DIPLOMAT WHO HAS SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT THE NEW BAGHDAD.

PLUS, THE STORY OF A HOLLYWOOD ORIGINAL, LEGENDARY PRODUCER SAM SPIEGEL.

ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I’M JESS MARLOW. VAL IS ON VACATION.

BY MOST ACCOUNTS, IT’S BEEN AN EXPENSIVE FAILURE FOR THE LOS ANGELES UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT, BUT IS BELMONT FINALLY DEAD? WHAT SEEMED LIKE THE FINAL BLOW CAME RECENTLY WHEN THE DISTRICT DECIDED NOT TO SPEND ANY MORE MONEY ON SEISMIC STUDIES. THAT’S IMPORTANT BECAUSE BELMONT SITS ATOP A FAULT LINE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE ACTIVE. BUT AS PHILIP BRUCE REPORTS, THE NEED FOR MORE CLASSROOMS COULD OUTWEIGH THE WORRIES OVER A POSSIBLE EARTHQUAKE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GLORIA SOTO IS MORE THAN JUST A CONCERNED PARENT. SHE’S A VETERAN FIGHTER AND HER EYES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ON THE PRIZE, A NEW HIGH SCHOOL FOR THE BELMONT NEIGHBORHOOD JUST WEST OF DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES.

GLORIA SOTO>> I’M HOPING THAT WE WILL HAVE THE SCHOOL THAT WE PROMISED FOR OUR KIDS. WE NEED TO RELIEVE THE OVERCROWDING AT THE CURRENT BELMONT AND WE NEED TO HAVE A SCHOOL HERE. THE SCHOOL WAS PROMISED TO THIS COMMUNITY AND WE NEED A SCHOOL TO BE BUILT AND THAT’S WHAT WE’RE ASKING.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT GLORIA OFTEN WONDERS IF THE PROMISE WILL EVER BE FULFILLED. LIKE SO MANY OTHERS HERE, SHE WATCHES THE NEVER-ENDING DRAMA THAT BELMONT HAS BECOME. WHAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A STATE-OF-THE-ART LEARNING CENTER SKIDDED TO A HALT AFTER INSPECTORS DETERMINED THE CONSTRUCTION SITE RESTED ON WHAT HAD BEEN AN OIL FIELD. THAT RAISED THE SPECTER OF TOXIC FUMES AND EXPLOSIVE METHANE GAS IN THE CLASSROOMS, BUT THEN BELMONT GOT A SECOND CHANCE.

SAFETY EXPERTS SAID THEY COULD DEAL WITH THE METHANE AND THE SCHOOL BOARD GAVE THE GREEN LIGHT TO MOVE AHEAD. BUT THEN AN EVEN BIGGER PROBLEM. GEOLOGISTS DISCOVERED A FAULT LINE RUNNING UNDER PART OF THE HALF-BUILT FACILITY. STATE LAW SAYS NEW SCHOOLS MUST BE BUILT AT LEAST FIFTY FEET AWAY FROM ACTIVE FAULTS. THE QUESTION IS, IS THE BELMONT FAULT ACTIVE? AT FIRST, L.A. UNIFIED TRIED TO FIND OUT, BUT NOW THE DISTRICT HAS ABANDONED THE EFFORT WITHOUT EVER GETTING A DEFINITIVE ANSWER.

ROY ROMER>> WE SPENT OVER A MILLION DOLLARS TRENCHING ON THAT SITE TO SEE IF WE COULD FIND EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS NOT ACTIVE BECAUSE, IF WE DIDN’T FIND EVIDENCE THAT IT WAS NOT ACTIVE, THERE WAS NO ENGINEER THAT WORKS FOR ME THAT WOULD RECOMMEND THAT WE PUT CHILDREN IN THAT SCHOOL AND I WAS VERY SURE THIS BOARD WOULD NOT VOTE FOR IT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SUPERINTENDENT ROY ROMER HAS WANTED TO SALVAGE BELMONT, BUT HE DECIDED THAT POURING MORE MONEY INTO UNDERGROUND STUDIES WOULD BE A WASTE. THAT’S WHY HE CONVINCED A MAJORITY OF THE SCHOOL BOARD TO PULL THE PLUG ON ANOTHER FAULT STUDY.

GENETHIA HUDLEY-HAYES>> THE FIVE TO TWO VOTE MEANT THAT THERE WERE FIVE OF US WHO FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT YOU DON’T DO ANYMORE TRENCHING, THAT YOU DON’T SPEND ANYMORE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO GET AN ANSWER TO A QUESTION THAT WE BELIEVE IS NEVER GOING TO BE ANSWERED. THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE DISAGREEMENT IN THAT PROFESSIONAL COMMUNITY AROUND SEISMIC ACTIVITY, AROUND EARTHQUAKES, AROUND THE AGE OF THE FAULT, AROUND WHETHER IT’S ACTIVE OR INACTIVE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> JOSE HUIZAR, WHO REPRESENTS THE BELMONT AREA, WAS ONE OF TWO SCHOOL BOARD MEMBERS WHO VOTED FOR FURTHER STUDY ON THE FAULT. HE BELIEVES THE DISTRICT COULD HAVE GOTTEN SOME ANSWERS BY SPENDING JUST A LITTLE MORE.

JOSE HUIZAR>> I AM VERY FRUSTRATED AND I THINK THE COMMUNITY IS VERY FRUSTRATED ABOUT THE INABILITY OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT TO DELIVER THIS SCHOOL, REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICS. I BELIEVE WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE FACTS AND DECIDE WHETHER WE SHOULD GO FORWARD WITH THIS PROJECT OR NOT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SOME, INCLUDING THE DAILY NEWS WHICH HAS LONG OPPOSED BELMONT, SAY THAT WITHOUT A DEFINITE RULING ON THE FAULT LINE THE PROJECT IS DEAD. BUT ONCE AGAIN, BELMONT IS SHOWING SIGNS OF A PULSE. THE DISTRICT IS NOW CONSIDERING TWO OPTIONS THAT WOULD BRING STUDENTS HERE. UNDER ONE PLAN, THE DISTRICT WOULD FINISH THE CURRENT SITE AFTER DEMOLISHING TWO BUILDINGS ON THE FAULT LINE. ANOTHER IDEA IS TO BUILD A NEW AND SMALLER SCHOOL FOR 1,500 STUDENTS ON THE UNDEVELOPED WESTERN EDGE OF THE PROPERTY.

JOSE HUISAR>> EITHER ONE OF THOSE TWO OPTIONS WILL PROVIDE US DESPERATELY NEEDED SEATS IN THIS AREA.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NO ONE DISPUTES THAT THE OLD BELMONT IS OVERCROWDED. HUNDREDS OF KIDS ARE BUSED OUT OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD FOR SCHOOL WHILE OVER FIVE THOUSAND ATTEND THE MULTI-TRACT CAMPUS.

STUDENT>> OVER HERE, IT’S REALLY CROWDED. YOU HAVE TO GO AND PUSH PEOPLE, LIKE PUSH PEOPLE AROUND, TO GO TO YOUR CLASSES OR SOMETIMES YOU GO LATE.

STUDENT>> WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES TO GET TO OUR CLASSES. SOMETIMES WE’RE JUST LATE BECAUSE THERE ARE OVERCROWDED HALLS. WE CAN’T JUST WALK THROUGH. IT’S DIFFICULT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> PUBLIC POLICY EXPERT, DAVID ABEL, WAS A MEMBER OF THE DISTRICT’S SCHOOL BOND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE. HE SEES THE BELMONT STORY AS A TRAGEDY.

DAVID ABEL>> THE FACT THAT A MAJOR SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THE CITY COULD NOT BUILD A SCHOOL IN ITS DOWNTOWN AREA, A SCHOOL THAT’S TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OVERDUE AND OVERDUE ON PROMISES MADE AND COULD SPEND $200 MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE AND HAVE NOTHING OPEN, IS A TRAGEDY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AND ABEL SAYS IT’S THE KIDS WHO PAY THE PRICE.

DAVID ABEL>> WE’VE LOST TWO GENERATIONS OF STUDENTS HERE SINCE WE PROMISED THIS PROCESS. THEY’VE GONE THROUGH HIGH SCHOOL IN AN OVERCROWDED EXISTING BELMONT THAT SITS ON THE SAME CONDITIONS THAT THE NEW BELMONT SAT ON, BUT NOBODY SEEMED TO WORRY ABOUT THEM.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HUIZAR SAYS THE BOARD IS COMMITTED TO BRINGING MORE CLASSROOMS TO THE BELMONT COMMUNITY, BUT HE SAYS REACHING A DECISION WILL BE TOUGH.

JOSE HUIZAR>> THIS IS A NEW BOARD THAT IS ATTEMPTING TO DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE WITH THE SITE AND FIND A SOLUTION. HOWEVER, THEY ARE CONSTANTLY HIT BY THE FACT OR BLAMED FOR SOME OF THE ORIGINAL DECISIONS THAT THEY DID NOT MAKE. I THINK IN MANY OF THE BOARD MEMBERS’ MINDS, THEY SIMPLY DO NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH THE SYMBOLISM OF BELMONT, THE NEGATIVITY OF BELMONT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GENETHIA HUDLEY-HAYES SAYS SHE’S PREPARED TO MAKE A FINAL DECISION ON BELMONT THIS SPRING BEFORE SHE AND CURRENT PRESIDENT, CAPRICE YOUNG, LEAVE THE BOARD. BOTH WERE DEFEATED IN THEIR BIDS FOR RE-ELECTION.

GENETHIA HUDLEY-HAYES>> I THINK THAT WE’RE WILLING TO SAY THIS HAS BEEN ON OUR PLATE FOR FOUR YEARS AND WE NOW NEED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE MAKE A DECISION ABOUT BELMONT AND WE OUGHT NOT BE TOSSING THIS OFF TO A BRAND NEW BOARD TO START DELIBERATIONS ALL OVER AGAIN.

DAVID ABEL>> THIS NOW IS AT THE POLITICAL STAGE, NOT AT THE SUBSTANTIVE STAGE, AND YOU GOT NEW OFFICE ORDERS COMING IN. WE’LL JUST HAVE TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS ITSELF OUT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GLORIA SOTO SAYS, WHEN HER CHILDREN WERE IN SCHOOL, SHE WAS KNOWN AS THE MOTHER OF BELMONT. NOW THE FIGHT HAS BEEN GOING ON SO LONG THAT SHE’S MORE LIKE THE GRANDMOTHER OF BELMONT.

GLORIA SOTO>> MY HOPE IS THAT MY GRANDSON WILL BE ABLE TO ATTEND A STATE-OF-THE-ART HIGH SCHOOL IN THIS COMMUNITY AND HE WILL NOT BE BUSED, BUT HE’LL BE ABLE TO STAY AND HAVE HIS ROOTS WHERE HE LIVES.

JESS>> NEXT WEEK, THE FUTURE OF BELMONT IS ON THE LINE WHEN THE LOS ANGELES SCHOOL BOARD TAKES UP THE PLANS YOU JUST HEARD ABOUT. AND THERE IS A THIRD OPTION THEY WILL CONSIDER: PULLING OUT OF THE BELMONT PROJECT ALTOGETHER AND SIMPLY CALLING IT QUITS.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE MIDDLE-CLASS GETS PRICED OUT OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA’S HOUSING MARKET? SOME EXPERTS SAY IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED.

>> MOST STUDIES SHOW THAT THE HOUSING WAGE IN LOS ANGELES IS OVER TWENTY DOLLARS AN HOUR, SO THAT MEANS THAT, IF YOU’RE A NURSE, IF YOU ARE A BUS DRIVER, IF YOU ARE A MECHANIC, YOU’RE SHUT OUT OF MOST HOUSING IN LOS ANGELES.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE ARE THE RESULTS OF LAST NIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES "WHAT DO YOU THINK?" POLL: YES-63%, NO-37%. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG TO WEIGH IN ON A NEW QUESTION TOMORROW.

JESS>> THE PENTAGON SAYS THE SERIOUS COMBAT IS OVER, BUT NOW COMES THE HARD PART, PUTTING THE NATION OF IRAQ BACK TOGETHER. AMERICA CLEARLY WILL PLAY A LEAD ROLE, BUT SOME SAY SOME OF THE IRAQI-AMERICANS WHO HAVE LONG DREAMED OF SADDAM HUSSEIN'S DEMISE. JOINING US TONIGHT IS ONE SUCH INDIVIDUAL, MAZIN YOUSIF, WHO IS A LEADER OF THE IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS. THAT'S THE MAIN ANTI-SADDAM RESISTANCE GROUP THAT'S BEEN LOBBYING FOR REGIME CHANGE. TODAY HE RUNS A BUSINESS IN ORANGE COUNTY, BUT HE COULD HELP TO SET UP THE AGENDA FOR A NEW BAGHDAD. WELCOME.

MAZIN YOUSIF>> OH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> THE QUESTION EVERYBODY IS ASKING IS CAN YOU POSSIBLY PUT ALL THE DISPARATE GROUPS IN IRAQ TOGETHER AND GET AN AGREEMENT ON A FORMATION OF A NEW GOVERNMENT?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> ABSOLUTELY, YEAH. THE MEETING THAT TOOK PLACE TODAY IN NASIRIYAH IS BIG PROOF OF THAT. YOU KNOW, OVER EIGHTY INDIVIDUALS, SOME FROM EXILE, SOME FROM INSIDE IRAQ, MET TODAY AND THEY PEACEFULLY AND IN A VERY CIVILIZED MANNER AGREED ON THE FORMATION OF A, ONE, DEMOCRATIC IRAQ, TWO, A FEDERAL IRAQ AND, THIRD, CHOSEN BY THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ. YOU KNOW, THESE ARE DIVISIONS THAT EVERY AMERICAN, EVERY FREE PERSON IN THE WORLD, WOULD LIKE TO SEE FOR ITS COUNTRY. THEY ALSO AGREED TO MEET IN ABOUT TEN DAYS FOR THEIR CONFERENCE IN BAGHDAD.

JESS>> WILL THE CONFLICT, IF IT EXISTS, BE BETWEEN THOSE WHO HAVE STAYED IN IRAQ AND THOSE WHO WENT INTO EXILE?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> VERY INTERESTING QUESTION, JESS, BECAUSE PEOPLE FROM INSIDE IRAQ WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE ONES WHO SUFFERED OVER THE LAST THIRTY-FIVE YEARS. WE WERE THE ONES WHO WITNESSED THE WARS OF IRAQ AND IRAN AND KUWAIT AND THE BOMBING AND SO ON, SO THEY FEEL THEY HAVE A BETTER RIGHT. PEOPLE IN EXILE, ON THE OTHER HAND, WILL SAY THAT THE ONES INSIDE IRAQ HAVE GROWN THEIR ENTIRE LIVES UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN AND THEY DON'T KNOW DEMOCRACY. WE HAVE TO COME BACK TO IRAQ AND EDUCATE THEM IN DEMOCRACY. SO THIS ARGUMENT IS VERY VIVID AND VERY VALID TODAY IN BOTH GROUPS.

WHAT I SEE IS A COMBINATION OF BOTH EXILE GROUPS WHO HAVE LIVED, WITNESSED AND PRACTICED DEMOCRACY IN THEIR NEW HOMES, WHETHER IT WAS IN EUROPE OR IN AMERICA, AS WELL AS PEOPLE INSIDE IRAQ WHO KNOW HOW TO MOVE ABOUT AND RUN THE COUNTRY FROM INSIDE. SO A COMBINATION OF BOTH EXILE GROUPS AND PEOPLE FROM WITHIN IRAQ WOULD BE THE RIGHT COMBINATION.

JESS>> GIVEN THE NATURE AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT EXIST IN IRAQ, PARTICULARLY IN THE CITIES, WILL THE EXILES RETURN?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> WELL, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DIRECTION OF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT. IF WE SEE, YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE FROM THE BACK, A DICTATOR MIGHT POP UP FROM THE ARMY OR SOMEBODY WHO MOUNTS A COUP ON THE GOVERNMENT AND WILL INSTALL HIS OWN DICTATORSHIP, YES, I CAN GUARANTEE YOU NO IRAQI-AMERICAN OR ANY EXILE GROUP WILL GO BACK. BUT IF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT OF IRAQ IS A DEMOCRATIC ONE, A FREE ONE THAT ENCOURAGES THE EXILE COMMUNITY TO COME BACK AND MAYBE, FOR EXAMPLE, ALLOW THEM TO HAVE DUAL CITIZENSHIP TO KEEP THEIR U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND ALSO CARRY AN IRAQI CITIZENSHIP, THAT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO GO BACK, TO INVEST AND TO REBUILD THE COUNTRY A LOT FASTER THAN THEY'RE PLANNING TO.

JESS>> WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THE STATEMENT THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL HAVE TO LEAD IN THE RECONSTRUCTION OF IRAQ?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> LEADING IS A TOUGH WORD FOR IRAQIS TO SWALLOW. HOW ABOUT ASSIST? HOW ABOUT HELP? HOW ABOUT SHOW? YOU KNOW, THERE ARE OTHER VERBS THAT ONE CAN USE, BUT --

JESS>> -- THOSE VERBS ARE HARD TO USE WHEN THERE IS THE VIEW THAT, AS LONG AS WE MAINTAIN A MILITARY PRESENCE THERE, THEY ARE THE OCCUPIER.

MAZIN YOUSIF>> I PERSONALLY DON'T SEE THEM AS AN OCCUPIER. THE TELEVISION PROGRAMS THAT WE WATCHED OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS DID NOT SHOW THAT THE IRAQI PEOPLE, MOST OF THE IRAQI PEOPLE, PERCEIVED THEM AS OCCUPIERS. THEY ARE INDEED LIBERATORS, BUT THE QUESTION OF LIBERATION ENDS WHEN THE REGIME ENDS. AND THE REGIME, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, HAS ENDED. ANYTHING AFTER REGIME CHANGE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A NEW GOVERNMENT, THE U.S. FORCES WILL HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER ROLE, A ROLE OF KEEPING LAW AND ORDER AS WELL AS ASSISTING IN THE REBUILDING OF THE COUNTRY. IF THAT TAKES PLACE, THEN THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ WILL CONTINUE TO PERCEIVE THEM AS LIBERATORS.

JESS>> AND, IN FACT, IRAQ WAS PERILOUSLY CLOSE, CERTAINLY IN BAGHDAD, PERILOUSLY CLOSE TO ANARCHY.

MAZIN YOUSIF>> THAT'S ACTUALLY A NATURAL BEHAVIOR. YOU KNOW, IT HAPPENED HERE IN LOS ANGELES WHEN WE HAD THE RIOTS. PEOPLE WERE OUT THERE LOOTING, IN NEW YORK, PARIS, LONDON. PEOPLE LIKE TO LOOT WHEN THE LIGHTS ARE OUT (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> THE DIFFERENCE WAS THAT HERE THERE'S A POLICE FORCE. THERE, THERE WAS NONE.

MAZIN YOUSIF>> THAT'S EVEN MORE OF A REASON. PLUS THE PEOPLE THAT WERE RIOTING AND LOOTING AND ROBBING THE MINISTRIES WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE -- THESE ARE THE TWO MILLION PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE EASTERN PART OF BAGHDAD WHO HAVE BEEN THE UNDERPRIVILEGED. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE POOREST OF THE POOR IN BAGHDAD THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF SADDAM TOOK ADVANTAGE OF OVER THE LAST THIRTY-FIVE YEARS, THAT SADDAM HAS BEEN LOOTING THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT. SO FOR THEM TO LOOT FOR TWO DAYS IS NOTHING COMPARED TO SADDAM LOOTING THIRTY BILLION DOLLARS OVER THE LAST THIRTY-FIVE YEARS.

JESS>> DRAWING ON YOUR EXPERIENCE AND THAT OF YOUR DIPLOMAT FATHER, DOES IRAQ HAVE THE RESOURCES NOW, EVEN THOUGH MUCH OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE HAS BEEN BADLY DAMAGED, TO BE SELF-SUFFICIENT ANY TIME SOON?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> NOT TODAY. ABSOLUTELY NOT TODAY. BUT WITHIN THE NEXT TWO TO FIVE YEARS, DEFINITELY IRAQ WILL BE A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH IN THE MIDDLE EAST. IT WILL DEFINITELY BE A LEADING ECONOMIC POWER AS WELL AS A BEACON FOR THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST TO SEE HOW DEMOCRACY IS PRACTICED IN AN ARAB ISLAMIC MIDDLE EASTERN CITY AND COUNTRY.

JESS>> ONLY TODAY, THE UNITED STATES FORCES SHUT DOWN A PIPELINE THAT WAS FUNNELING OIL ILLEGALLY INTO SYRIA. THAT ALSO CUTS OFF A SOURCE OF INCOME?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> WELL, THAT WASN'T A SOURCE OF INCOME FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE --

JESS>> -- ONLY FOR SADDAM, HUH?

MAZIN YOUSIF>> YEAH, THAT WAS HIS PLEASURE MONEY. YOU KNOW, THE MONEY HE USED FOR ASSASSINATING HIS FOES. I'M VERY HAPPY THAT THEY SHUT THAT PIPELINE DOWN. THE PIPELINES THEY NEED TO OPEN ARE THROUGH PROBABLY JORDAN, THROUGH SAUDI ARABIA, THROUGH TURKEY. THESE ARE THE LEGAL FORMS OF EXPORTING OIL, NOT THE ONES THAT HE SMUGGLED INTO SYRIA FOR HIS OWN BENEFIT.

JESS>> IN THE MEETING THAT WAS HELD TODAY, AHMED CHALABI WAS NOT PRESENT. HE SENT A REPRESENTATIVE, BUT IT APPEARED AT LEAST THAT WE WERE LEANING TOWARD HIM BEING A POTENTIAL HEAD OF IRAQ.

MAZIN YOUSIF>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AS THE EX-PRESIDENT CLINTON SAYS, CAN YOU DEFINE "WE"? YOU KNOW, WHO IS WE? IS IT THE STATE DEPARTMENT? IS IT THE CIA? IS IT THE PENTAGON? IS IT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL? THERE ARE DIFFERENT AGENCIES WITHIN OUR GOVERNMENT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE DIFFERENT PREFERENCES. THE IRAQI PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A PERSON, A LEADER, A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL HAVE A COALITION THAT CAN BRING ALL THE DIFFERENT FACTIONS TOGETHER.

IN MY OPINION, AHMED CHALABI IS WELL-SUITED TO BRING ALL THE FAR RIGHT, THE FAR LEFT, THE KURDS, THE ARABS, THE SUNNIS, THE SHIITES, THE CALDIONS, THE ASSYRIANS, BRING THEM ALL TOGETHER INTO A COALITION GOVERNMENT. IT'S NOT SOME AGENCIES WITHIN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT WOULD LIKE TO SEE AHMED CHALABI IN IRAQ. IRAQ NEEDS AHMED CHALABI FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS PROBABLY.

JESS>> AND THE WORLD WILL BE WATCHING. OUR THANKS TO MAZIN YOUSIF.

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JESS>> THE LOOTING IN IRAQ SEEMS TO BE SUBSIDING, BUT NOT BEFORE THE IRAQI MOBS WRECKED PART OF THEIR OWN HISTORY. PATT SAYS IT WAS A VERY HIGH COST OF WAR. THAT'S TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT MORRISON>> ANY WAR LEAVES A TRAGIC TRAIL OF THE DEAD AND THE DESTROYED AND THE TRAGEDIES ARE PARTICULARLY ACUTE WHEN THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN AVOIDED. SO IT WAS WITH THE LOOTING OF THE NATIONAL MUSEUM OF IRAQ WHICH THIS WEEK LOST ABOUT 100,000 OBJECTS OF ANTIQUITY. THE LOSSES FROM THE MESOPOTAMIAN CRADLE OF CULTURE ARE INCALCULABLE FROM THE FIRST KNOWN CALENDAR TO SAMPLES OF SOME OF THE WORLD'S EARLIEST KNOWN WRITING AND THE GOLD AND IVORY HARP OF UR, BIRTHPLACE OF ABRAHAM, A MAN REVERED BY THREE MAJOR FAITHS. A MUSEUM ARCHAEOLOGIST SAW A MOB OF CHILDREN AND OLD PEOPLE RUNNING AMOK AMONG THE ARTIFACTS OF EARLY CIVILIZATION, A SMASH-AND-GRAB ROBBERY IN A JEWELRY STORE IN A SUBURBAN MALL, BUT AMONG THE RELICS OF ANTIQUITY.

SECRETARY OF STATE, COLIN POWELL, HAS DECLARED THE ITEMS STOLEN PROPERTY AND POSSESSING OR DEALING THEM IS A CRIME. THE U.S., HE SAID, WOULD LEAD THE RECOVERY OF STOLEN GOODS AND PROTECTING OTHER MUSEUMS AND ANTIQUITIES IN IRAQ, BUT THE BLACK MARKET IS BROAD AND DEEP AND SECRET AND, OF THE FOUR THOUSAND MUSEUM OBJECTS STOLEN IN THE 1991 IRAQI WAR, PERHAPS ONLY TWO HAVE BEEN RECOVERED. HAD THE MUSEUM BEEN PROTECTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, NO RECOVERY MISSION WOULD BE NECESSARY. OPEN BARN DOOR, RELEASE HORSE, CLOSE BARN DOOR.

IT IS DEPLORABLE THAT IRAQIS SHOULD DESTROY THEIR OWN HERITAGE, BUT IT'S ALSO DEPLORABLE THAT NOTHING WAS DONE TO STOP IT, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE LOOTERS HAD STRUCK BEFORE IN 1991 AND THE MUSEUM EXPECTED IT AGAIN. ARCHAEOLOGISTS MET WITH PENTAGON OFFICIALS IN JANUARY ABOUT MUSEUM SAFETY AND SECURITY AND COMPILED A LIST OF "DO NOT BOMB" SITES. COALITION FORCES DID NOT BOMB THEM, BUT TROOPS PROTECTED MANY OTHER SITES LIKE HOSPITALS AND INDUSTRIAL COMPLEXES. SO WHY NOT THIS BUILDING? AS VALUABLE TO IRAQ IN ITS OWN WAY AS A HOSPITAL.

THIS IS ALL THE MORE IRONIC BECAUSE THE U.S. SET THE STANDARD FOR WARTIME ARTISTIC PROTECTION. DURING WORLD WAR TWO, THE ARMY FIELD OF THE MFAA, THE MONUMENTS FINE ARTS AND ARCHIVES BRANCH, AUTHORIZED AT THE REQUEST OF THE ART ESTABLISHMENT, ART SPECIALISTS WITH AUTHORITY EVEN OVER GENERALS MANAGED TO PROTECT AND RECOVER THOUSANDS OF WORKS OF ART. THE MFAA WAS CREDITED WITH NOTHING LESS THAN SAVINGS THE WORLD'S CULTURAL AND ARTISTIC PATRIMONY. IF THAT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED IN A WORLD WAR, IT COULD HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED HERE AND IRAQ AND THE WORLD COULD NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING BUT THANK US FOR IT.

JESS>> YOU MAY NOT KNOW HIM, BUT YOU DEFINITELY KNOW SOME OF HIS HANDIWORK. SAM SPIEGEL WAS THE PRODUCER OF SUCH CLASSIC FILMS AS "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA", "ON THE WATERFRONT" AND "THE AFRICAN QUEEN". BUT IN SPITE OF HIS FAME, SPIEGEL NEVER FORGOT HIS PAST AS A PENNILESS JEWISH REFUGEE. HE HELPED TO COLONIZE PALESTINE, THE NATION THAT WOULD LATER BECOME ISRAEL. HE ALSO HAD SOME NEAR MISSES WITH THE NAZIS AND MANAGED TO GET ARRESTED AND DEPORTED MORE THAN ONCE FOR SHADY FINANCIAL DEALINGS, BUT HE EVENTUALLY WON FOUR BEST PICTURE OSCARS IN EIGHT YEARS. THAT'S A HOLLYWOOD RECORD THAT STANDS TODAY. THE LEGENDARY PRODUCER'S AMAZING LIFE STORY IS TOLD IN A NEW BIOGRAPHY, "SAM SPIEGEL", AND JOINING US TONIGHT IS ITS AUTHOR, NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI. WELCOME.

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JESS>> YOU WORKED FOR SAM SPIEGEL, BUT YOU WERE ALSO A CONFIDANTE OF SAM SPIEGEL, WERE YOU NOT?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> I DON'T THINK ANYONE WAS A CONFIDANTE OF SAM SPIEGEL BECAUSE HE KEPT HIS CARDS CLOSE TO HIS CHEST.

JESS>> SO ALL THIS MATERIAL YOU FOUND HERE YOU GOT FROM OTHERS? (LAUGHTER)

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> FROM OTHERS, AND ALSO SPIEGEL'S PAPERS WHICH ARE NOW IN JERUSALEM.

JESS>> HE DOES HAVE A SPOTTY REPUTATION, TO SAY THE LEAST. THERE WAS TALK OF USING THE WORD "SPIEGELEZE" TO MEAN YOU WERE DECEIVING SOMEONE. IS THAT TRUE?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> THAT'S TRUE. CERTAINLY DURING "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA", A NEW VERB CAME IN TO HOLLYWOOD LINGO WHICH WAS "TO SPIEGEL", MEANING TO CAJOLE, PERSUADE, BASICALLY MANIPULATE.

JESS>> HE WAS A MANIPULATOR, BUT HE APPARENTLY WAS ALSO A BRILLIANT GENIUS.

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> YES. I THINK HE WAS BRILLIANTLY CREATIVE AND EXTREMELY CULTURED. JUST AS SPIEGEL WAS A SEXY HOLLYWOOD FIGURE, HE ALSO SPOKE NINE LANGUAGES AND HAD A GREAT WAY OF TELLING A STORY.

JESS>> AND HERE IS "THE AFRICAN QUEEN", WHICH WAS REALLY ONE OF HIS -- IT WASN'T CONSIDERED TO BE A GREAT SUCCESS INITIALLY, WAS IT?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> NO, IT WAS A HUGE SUCCESS. IT WAS A HUGE SUCCESS.

JESS>> BUT NO OSCAR?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> NO OSCAR. MIND YOU, HUMPHREY BOGART, QUITE RIGHTLY, WON AN OSCAR. IT WAS TRUE THAT ALEXANDER KORDA, ONE OF THE FAMOUS EUROPEAN PRODUCERS, SAID "TWO OLD PEOPLE GOING UP A RIVER, YOU'LL BE BANKRUPT" AND IT MADE A FORTUNE.

JESS>> YOU WROTE THAT THERE WAS A FEAR THAT IT WOULDN'T WORK. HE ALSO SHOT IT IN THE CONGO, WHICH WAS NOT AN EASY VENUE.

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> YES. PETER VITALE, WHO WAS ONE OF THE SCREENWRITERS, SAID THAT HUSTON DREW THAT LOCATION TO DRIVE EVERYONE MAD.

JESS>> AND NEARLY SUCCEEDED.

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> AND LAUREN BACALL DIDN'T AGREE. SHE SAID HE CHOSE THOSE LOCATIONS, BUT HE ALSO MADE THOSE BRILLIANT FILMS.

JESS>> HIS PERSONAL HISTORY WAS MUCH IN DISPUTE. HOW DID HE GET OUT OF GERMANY? DO YOU KNOW THE TRUE STORY OF HOW HE ESCAPED?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> THERE WERE CERTAINLY MANY VERSIONS, BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE DOCUMENTATION TO PROVE THAT HE REALLY DID TAKE THAT LAST TRAIN OUT OF BERLIN. IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY TALE. HE WAS BEING SHAVED BY HIS BARBER WHO WHISPERED INTO HIS EAR, "DON'T GO HOME. THEY'RE COMING TO GET YOU". SO HE TOOK WITH VERY LITTLE MONEY IN HIS POCKET, NOT EVEN A TOOTHBRUSH, HE TOOK THE NEXT TRAIN OUT.

JESS>> BUT HE WAS A MAN WHO WAS PENNILESS ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, BUT ALWAYS CAME OUT OF IT?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> WELL, AS KHASAN SAID, YOU COULD DROP HIM NAKED INTO A CITY PENNILESS AND THE NEXT DAY HE'D BE LIVING IN THE BEST HOTEL WITH A LOT OF MONEY.

JESS>> AND IN YOUR BOOK, "SAM SPIEGEL", YOU QUOTE BILLY WILDER AS SAYING "A MODERN DAY ROBIN HOOD WHO STEALS FROM THE RICH AND STEALS FROM THE POOR." (LAUGHTER)

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> ABSOLUTELY (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> WAS HE REALLY THAT?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> HE WAS -- TO PUT IT THIS WAY, HE WAS STRANGE WITH MONEY, BUT HE ALSO HAD FANTASTIC CHARM. AGAIN TO QUOTE LAUREN BACALL, SHE SAID "BOGEY DIDN'T TRUST SPIEGEL, BUT HE DID RECOGNIZE THE FABULOUS TASTE HE HAD AND HE GOT THINGS DONE." IF YOU LOOK TODAY AT FILM POSTERS, THERE WERE SEVERAL PRODUCERS FOR ONE FILM.

JESS>> HERE'S "LAWRENCE OF ARABIA".

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> IT'S EXTRAORDINARY, IF YOU THINK HE WAS THE ONLY PRODUCER ON THAT.

JESS>> A CAST OF THOUSANDS.

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> A CAST OF THOUSANDS. IT TOOK TWO YEARS TO MAKE. COLUMBIA WOULD NOT PRO THE FILM BECAUSE IT WAS AN ALL-MALE PRODUCT AND THEY THOUGHT IT WAS VERY ENGLISH.

JESS>> HOW DID HE GET ALONG WITH DAVID LEAN?

NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI>> IT WAS A VOLATILE RELATIONSHIP. AS SPIEGEL'S THIRD WIFE SAID, IT WAS THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP THAT THEY'D BE SCREAMING AT EACH OTHER AND THEN, TWO MINUTES LATER, LAUGHING AND HAVING LUNCH.

JESS>> IT'S A FASCINATING STORY AND FASCINATING SUBJECT AND YOUR BOOK, I UNDERSTAND, IS BEING VERY WELL RECEIVED. OUR THANKS TO NATASHA FRASER-CAVASSONI. AGAIN, THE BOOK IS ENTITLED "SAM SPIEGEL". IT IS A REMARKABLE ADVENTURE STORY ABOUT A HOLLYWOOD ORIGINAL.

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