4/17/03

LC030417

JESS MARLOW>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

CLOSING THE BOOKS ON ONE OF THE CITY’S GREAT UNSOLVED MURDERS, BUT DID THE DOCTOR REALLY DO IT?

STEVE HODEL>> I LOVED DR. JEKYLL. MY FATHER WAS DR. JEKYLL. I GREW TO HATE ONCE I DISCOVERED THE CRIMES AND CONNECTING HIM WITH THEM. I LEARNED AND DISCOVERED MR. HYDE.

JESS>> AND THEN LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD COPS FOR BAGHDAD. TONIGHT A LOCAL LAWMAN SHARES HIS EXPERIENCES ON HOW TO KEEP THE PEACE IN A WAR ZONE.

PLUS, STRANGE IMAGES ON FILM, AND PATT MORRISON WONDERS WHY YOU CAN SMOKE, BUT NOT LIGHT A CANDLE.

IT’S ALL NEXT ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I’M JESS MARLOW. VAL HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

IT WAS A GRUESOME MURDER, GRIZZLY EVEN BY TODAY’S STANDARDS, AND IT’S REMAINED A MYSTERY FOR MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY. BUT NOW A RETIRED LAPD DETECTIVE SAYS HIS FATHER WAS THE KILLER. SO GOES THE LATEST DRAMA IN THE CASE OF THE “BLACK DAHLIA”. TONIGHT YOU’LL MEET THE COP WH0 BELIEVES HE’S FINALLY CRACKED THE CASE. BUT AS TONI GUINYARD REPORTS, NOT EVEN HE CAN EXPLAIN THE COVER-UPS THAT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE AFTER THE CRIME.

[FILM CLIP]

TONI GUINYARD>> APPLAUSE FOR THE MAN WHO SAYS HE’S SOLVED THE MURDER OF THE “BLACK DAHLIA”, ELIZABETH SHORT. THE TWENTY-TWO-YEAR-OLD WOMAN WAS MURDERED IN 1947 IN A CRIME THAT STUNNED LOS ANGELES RESIDENTS.

>> I JUST REMEMBER BEING TERRIFIED.

TONI GUINYARD>> NOW, MORE THAN FIVE DECADES LATER, RETIRED LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, STEVE HODEL, SAYS HE’S CRACKED THE CASE. HE’S CONVINCED HIS FATHER, DR. GEORGE HILL HODEL, KILLED NOT ONLY ELIZABETH SHORT, BUT ALSO AT LEAST NINETEEN OTHER WOMEN.

STEVE HODEL>> IT WAS A SERIAL KILLER, NOT A STAND-ALONE CRIME, AS LAPD AND MOST OF US THOUGHT FOR MANY DECADES.

JAYNE TRAVIS>> A FRIEND TOLD ME THAT THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST NOTORIOUS CRIME STORY IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES. IT WAS A SCANDAL THEN, IT’S STILL A SCANDAL, IT’S STILL LIVE AND GOING.

TONI GUINYARD>> THE SCANDAL HAS NEW LIFE FOLLOWING THE PUBLICATION OF HODEL’S BOOK, “BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER”. HE CONSIDERS IT DOCUMENTATION OF HIS INVESTIGATION. IN THIS, HIS VERY FIRST BOOK-SIGNING EVENT, HE FACES THE PUBLIC AND PUBLIC SCRUTINY. WHETHER HIS AUDIENCE BELIEVES HIS CLAIMS OR NOT, THEY SEEM DRAWN HERE OUT OF CURIOSITY, SKEPTICISM AND THEIR SEARCH FOR TWO ANSWERS: WHO COMMITTED THE MURDER AND WHY?

PLEASANT GEHMAN>> THIS CASE IS REALLY INTRIGUING. I MEAN, NOT JUST BECAUSE IT’S AN UNSOLVED MURDER. IT’S THAT SO MANY PEOPLE CONNECTED TO IT AND HAVE BEEN OBSESSED WITH IT. IT SORT OF HAD THE WHOLE HOLLYWOOD DREAM WOUND UP IN IT AND ALSO IT WAS LIKE ONE OF THE MOST REMARKABLE MID-CENTURY CRIMES AND IT WAS LIKE THE FIRST REALLY SORT OF BRUTAL, TABLOIDIZED, PUBLICIZED MURDER.

MURIEL COLMAN>> SO FAR, WHAT I’VE HEARD OR READ MAKES SENSE. IT’S JUST TOO OUTRAGEOUS NOT TO BE TRUE.

TONI GUINYARD>> HODEL’S BOOK DETAILS AN INVESTIGATION THAT BEGAN AFTER HIS FATHER DIED IN MAY OF 1999. IN THE DOCTOR’S PERSONAL ALBUM WERE PHOTOGRAPHS OF FAMILY AND UNIDENTIFIED WOMEN. THE RETIRED COP BELIEVES TWO PICTURES WERE THOSE OF ELIZABETH SHORT.

STEVE HODEL>> ONCE I DISCOVERED THE CRIME ITSELF AND THE PURE HORROR OF IT AND THE PURE EVIL IN THAT CRIME, THEN I WAS DETERMINED TO FIND THE TRUTH, WHEREVER IT LED ME.

TONI GUINYARD>> HE SAYS THE EVIDENCE KEPT LEADING HIM BACK TO HIS FATHER. USING HANDWRITING, HODEL WAS ABLE TO LINK HIS FATHER TO THE DEATH OF ANOTHER WOMAN, JEAN FRENCH. HER KILLER WROTE ON HER BODY WITH RED LIPSTICK.

STEVE HODEL>> CLEARLY, THE HANDWRITING ON THE BODY WHICH I RECOGNIZED AND THE HANDWRITING IN THE NOTE WHICH HE HAD WRITTEN AND MAILED TO THE PRESS AS THE BLACK DAHLIA AVENGER, I KNEW THEY WERE CONNECTED. I KNEW THEY WERE BOTH DEAD. THEN WHEN IT WENT TO TWO, IT BECAME THREE AND THEN FOUR AND THEN EIGHT AND THEN SIXTEEN AND NOW, AT THE END, SO FAR AT TWENTY, AND I FEAR THERE ARE MANY MORE YET TO COME.

TONI GUINYARD>> HODEL PRESENTED HIS FINDINGS TO STEPHEN KAY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY HEAD DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND FORMER COLLEAGUE. AFTER REVIEWING THE EVIDENCE, KAY WENT PUBLIC IN HIS SUPPORT OF HODEL. KAY IS CONVINCED THE “BLACK DAHLIA” MURDER IS SOLVED.

STEPHEN KAY>> I FIND THAT TWO OF THESE CASES I WOULD FILE, THE MURDER OF ELIZABETH SHORT AND THE MURDER OF JEAN FRENCH. I WOULD NOT, HOWEVER, FILE ANY CHARGES IN ANY OF THE OTHER MURDERS BECAUSE I DON’T THINK THERE’S ENOUGH FOR THE COURT.

TONI GUINYARD>> BUT IT’S STILL NOT ENOUGH TO CONVINCE THE PUBLIC. HODEL BELIEVES GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPTS WILL SUPPORT HIS CLAIMS. BUT SINCE DR. HODEL WAS NEVER INDICTED, THOSE FILES WERE NEVER MADE PUBLIC.

STEVE HODEL>> THOSE IN POWER AND AUTHORITY CAN LOOK AT THEM.

TONI GUINYARD>> HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THOSE FILES?

STEVE HODEL>> I THINK THE PUBLIC AND THE CITIZENS OF LOS ANGELES, ABSOLUTELY IT’S ESSENTIAL THAT THEY LOOK AT THOSE FILES AND SEE THE TRUTH.

TONI GUINYARD>> BUT HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE FILES?

STEVE HODEL>> VERY BADLY. I WANT THE CONFIRMATION. I DON’T WANT THERE TO BE ANY DOUBT IN ANYBODY’S MIND.

TONI GUINYARD>> KAY IS CONVINCED THAT LAPD FILES HOLD THE ANSWERS.

STEPHEN KAY>> THERE IS A LOT HERE AND I’D LOVE TO GET INTO THE LAPD FILES AND SEE WHAT PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THEY HAVE AND WHAT WE COULD DO WITH DNA.

STEVE HODEL>> NOW WE DON’T HAVE MY FATHER’S DNA TO LINK IT TO, BUT WE DO HAVE ME.

TONI GUINYARD>> LOOKING BACK AT THIS CRIME, HODEL SAYS THE LAPD ENGAGED IN A COVER-UP. NOW HE WANTS TO KNOW WHY. HE ALSO WANTS TO BRING CLOSURE TO A CASE THAT HAS ENTHRALLED THE PUBLIC FOR YEARS. DETAILS OF THE CRIME ARE STILL SO DIFFICULT TO HEAR.

STEPHEN KAY>> THIS POOR YOUNG WOMAN WAS BRUTALIZED. HER BODY WAS BISECTED. IN ALL MY THIRTY-SIX YEARS, I’VE NEVER SEEN THAT HAPPEN BEFORE. I MEAN, NOT PULLING HAIRS OUT, BUT SLICING, JUST SLICING PARTS OF HER BREASTS AND HER FACE. IT JUST WAS AN AWFUL MURDER.

TONI GUINYARD>> A MURDER HODEL BELIEVES WAS COMMITTED IN THE FAMILY’S ONE-TIME HOME ON FRANKLIN AVENUE. THE HODEL FAMILY LIVED IN THIS HOME FROM 1945 TO 1950. LOOKING BACK ON THAT PERIOD OF TIME, STEVE HODEL NOW SAYS THINGS THAT HAPPENED THEN NOW MAKE PERFECT SENSE.

STEVE HODEL>> ONE THING I NEVER SAW AND I NEVER KNEW WAS THE EVIL. I NEVER SAW THAT EVIL.

TONI GUINYARD>> IT’S JUST THAT. THE DANGER, THE MYSTERY, THE BRUTALITY OF THE CRIME THAT HAS SO MANY PEOPLE WANTING TO KNOW SO MUCH MORE.

>> WHAT WERE SOME OF THE HURDLES THAT YOU HAD TO OVERCOME IN PRESENTING YOUR CASE. . .

TONI GUINYARD>> HODEL DESCRIBES HIS FATHER IN TERMS OF DR. JEKYLL AND MR. HYDE.

STEVE HODEL>> DR. JEKYLL GAVE ME LIFE. HE’S MY FATHER AND I’LL ALWAYS LOVE HIM. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A LOVE FOR HIM. I CAN’T TAKE THAT AWAY. BUT WHO WE’RE REALLY CONVICTING HERE AND WHO I’VE DISCOVERED IS MR. HYDE.

JESS>> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS A SPECIAL CONNECTION TO THE “BLACK DAHLIA” CASE. THE BODY WAS DUMPED JUST A FEW BLOCKS FROM HIS FATHER’S DRUGSTORE. BACK IN 1947, PETE NOYES WAS JUST A TEENAGER. HE LATER BECAME A TOP-NOTCH INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AND BEGAN DIGGING UP HIS OWN CLUES. TODAY PETE IS WITH FOX 11 NEWS IN LOS ANGELES. HE’S HERE TONIGHT TO SHARE SOME OF HIS OWN THEORIES ABOUT THE KILLER. YOU DON’T BUY THE HODEL STORY, THEN?

PETE NOYES>> NOT NECESSARILY. I KNOW DR. HODEL WAS UNDER INVESTIGATION AT THE TIME, BUT I THINK EVERY DOCTOR IN HOLLYWOOD WAS UNDER INVESTIGATION.

JESS>> BECAUSE OF THE BISECTING OF THE BODY?

PETE NOYES>> YES. YOU KNOW, THE WOUNDS WERE PROBABLY ACCOMPLISHED BY A SURGEON. I’VE SEEN THE HORRIBLE CRIME SCENE PHOTOS. THEY WERE VERY CLEAN CUTS AND YOU HAVE TO SAY, WELL, SOMEBODY WITH MEDICAL EXPERIENCE MUST HAVE DONE IT.

JESS>> WHAT WAS THE MOTIVATION?

PETE NOYES>> THE MOTIVATION, IN MY UNDERSTANDING AND THE INFORMATION I’VE GOT, IS THAT SHE HAD A BOTCHED ABORTION. THE DAY SHE DISAPPEARED, SHE WENT TO THE BILTMORE HOTEL DOWNTOWN, WENT INTO THE LOBBY, AND MADE A PHONE CALL. SHE WAS NEVER SEEN AFTER THAT. FOR REASONS THAT I’VE RECEIVED FROM SEVERAL SOURCES, SHE WAS PROBABLY PREGNANT, UNDOUBTEDLY PREGNANT, AND THE NAME OF A DOCTOR WAS FOUND IN HER ADDRESS BOOK. HE WAS KNOWN AS AN ABORTIONIST AND HE LATER COMMITTED SUICIDE. I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS THAT THEORY. I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THAT THEORY.

JESS>> WELL, THE TAUNTING NOTES TO THE POLICE TO SOLVE THIS MURDER, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE SOMETHING DR. HODEL WOULD DO?

PETE NOYES>> I DON’T THINK SO, I DON’T THINK SO. I MEAN, THOSE LETTERS APPEARED TO BE THE WORK OF A MADMAN, AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED. IT WAS INCREDIBLE LIVING THROUGH THAT PERIOD. WHEN THEY MAILED THE ADDRESS BOOK AND ALL HER PERSONAL POSSESSIONS TO THE LOS ANGELES EXAMINER, I MEAN, WHO DOES THAT SORT OF THING, YOU KNOW? IT WAS LIKE HE WAS ASKING TO BE CAUGHT.

JESS>> AND REGARDLESS WHO THE MURDERER WAS, THE COVER-UP APPARENTLY WAS PROFOUND.

PETE NOYES>> LOOK, MY POINT OF VIEW IS THIS. I KNEW THAD BROWN, THE CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, AND I KNEW BILL PARKER. I’M SORRY, THEY WERE NOT CROOKS, THEY WERE NOT CORRUPT. THE IMPRESSION THAT THERE WAS A COVER-UP WAS THE RESULT OF THE MOVIE “TRUE CONFESSIONS” AND A NUMBER OF OTHER RUMORS THAT SPREAD AROUND HOLLYWOOD. THEY DIDN’T SOLVE THE MURDER BECAUSE, IN MY VIEW, OF SOME INCOMPETENCE AT THE TIME.

JESS>> PETE, WE HAVE A PORTION OF YOUR 1992 INTERVIEW WITH RETIRED DETECTIVE, PAUL FREESTONE, WHO HAS SINCE PASSED AWAY. HE TALKS ABOUT THAT PHONE NUMBER YOU MENTIONED IN ELIZABETH SHORT’S ADDRESS BOOK. IT LED TO ANOTHER HOLLYWOOD DOCTOR, THE ONE WHO MAY HAVE BEEN HER KILLER, BUT DETECTIVE FREEMAN SAYS IT TOOK A DECADE TO FIND HIM BECAUSE THE PHONE NUMBER GOT TRANSPOSED IN THE ORIGINAL POLICE REPORT.

LT. PAUL FREESTONE>> THIS IS JUST TEN YEARS AFTER, 1957, AND WE WERE SITTING AND TALKING AND THEY SAID HE WAS GOING THROUGH THE PHONE NUMBERS IN HER PURSE AND HE FOUND ONE NUMBER WHICH HAD NOT BEEN CHECKED OUT. SO HE DUG OUT THE REPORTS ON IT AND WHOEVER HAD TYPED THAT REPORT OFF FOR THEM TO WORK ON HAD TRANSPOSED TWO OF THE NUMBERS OF THE PHONE NUMBER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE, LIKE 87 BEING A 78 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. TWO NUMBERS WERE TRANSPOSED IN THIS ONE PHONE NUMBER, SO WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY NAME OR ADDRESS ON IT.

BROWNIE WENT DOWN TO THE PHONE COMPANY AND WENT DOWN IN THE BASEMENT AND GOT THAT UPSIDE DOWN PHONE BOOK, AS WE CALLED IT, AND LOOKED IT UP. THAT PARTICULAR NUMBER WAS REGISTERED TO A DOCTOR WHO WAS NAMED IN THE ABORTION RING, THE HEAD OF IT, AS I UNDERSTAND TOO. I THINK HAD WE GOT THAT INFORMATION AT THE TIME, WE MIGHT POSSIBLY HAVE SOLVED THE CASE AT THAT TIME IF THAT NUMBER HAD NOT BEEN TRANSPOSED BECAUSE WE WOULD HAVE GOT THIS INFORMATION WHEN IT WAS FRESH INSTEAD OF TEN YEARS OLD.

JESS>> DETECTIVE FREESTONE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT DR. HODEL?

PAUL NOYES>> NO, HE WAS NOT. I HAVE A GOOD IDEA WHO HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. I WILL NOT GIVE THAT MAN'S NAME OUT, BUT TODAY I TURNED OVER THIS TAPE TO THE LAPD DETECTIVE IN CHARGE OF THE "BLACK DAHLIA" CASE AND SAID WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE ADDRESS BOOK AND VERIFY IT FOR YOURSELF? WE'LL SEE IF HE DOES.

JESS>> AND THE NOTION THAT IS RAISED ABOUT DR. HODEL BEING A SERIAL KILLER, DOES THAT RING TRUE WITH YOU?

PAUL NOYES>> I DON'T THINK SO. I'VE HEARD THIS STORY BEFORE IN REGARD TO THE "BLACK DAHLIA" CASE. A WOMAN NAMED JAN NOLTON SAID HER FATHER KILLED THE BLACK DAHLIA AND A NUMBER OF OTHER WOMEN. IT DIDN'T RING TRUE. THERE IS SOME CREDIBILITY TO WHAT HE SAYS. I HAVE THE GREATEST RESPECT FOR STEVE KAY AS A PROSECUTOR. HOWEVER, SOME OF THOSE PICTURES IN THE BOOK DON'T EVEN LOOK LIKE ELIZABETH SHORT.

I THINK WE MIGHT BE GOING DOWN THE WRONG PATH HERE. IT'S INTERESTING. I KNOW THE D.A. DID INVESTIGATE DR. HODEL, BUT THEY NEVER ARRESTED HIM. THEY HAD NO REASON TO COVER UP THE CASE. THERE WAS NOBODY AT CITY HALL INVOLVED IN THIS THING. IT'S A MYTH THAT THIS INVOLVED POLITICAL CORRUPTION. I KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WANTED TO SOLVE IT.

JESS>> TRANSCRIPTS AND OTHER INFORMATION THAT REMAINS SECRET TO THIS DAY, WHY?

PAUL NOYES>> WELL, THERE'S NO REASON TO. I UNDERSTAND THE HEAD OF THE LAPD HOMICIDE UNIT WANTS TO RELEASE EVERYTHING, TO GO PUBLIC WITH EVERYTHING, AND I THINK STEVE COOLEY, THE D.A., IS OF THAT MIND TOO. I THINK THAT WOULD BE A GIANT STEP. UNDER THE LAW, THEY CAN'T RELEASE THE GRAND JURY TESTIMONY. THAT'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO. BUT I THINK THERE'S HOPE THAT THIS THING MAY EVENTUALLY COME OUT IN THE OPEN AND WE MAY ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

JESS>> ALL RIGHT. OUR THANKS TO PETE NOYES, ONE OF THE TRUE VETERANS OF LOS ANGELES TELEVISION AND THE MAN WHO WROTE THE BOOK ON INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, THE STORY OF A COP WHO WAS ABUSED BY A PRIEST AS A CHILD. NOW HE'S WALKING A NEW BEAT, OUTSIDE CARDINAL ROGER MAHONY'S OFFICE.

>> WHEN HE CAME DOWN, HE GAVE ME A ROSARY THAT JOHN PAUL II HAD GIVEN HIM, WHICH IS FINE, BUT INSTEAD OF THE ROSARY, I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE THE DOCUMENTS THAT HE'S HOLDING AND THE TRUTH.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE ARE THE RESULTS OF LAST NIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES "WHAT DO YOU THINK?" POLL: YES-50%, NO-50%. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG TO WEIGH IN ON A NEW QUESTION TOMORROW.

JESS>> THE PICTURES WE'VE ALL BEEN SEEING FROM IRAQ ARE DRAMATIC, AMERICAN SOLDIERS STOPPING A BANK ROBBERY, CLEAR THAT CROOKS WERE NO MATCH FOR THE U.S. MILITARY. BUT THIS WEEK'S INCIDENT WAS A GRAPHIC EXAMPLE OF HOW AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE NOW DOING THE WORK OF COPS AND THE PENTAGON WANTS THAT TO END JUST AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

OUR NEXT GUEST HAS SOME HANDS-ON EXPERIENCE IN THAT AREA. MICHAEL BERKOW IS THE FORMER POLICE CHIEF OF IRVINE. HE HAS JUST JOINED THE LAPD AS DEPUTY CHIEF. HE'S ALSO DONE INTERNATIONAL POLICE WORK IN SOMALIA, HAITI, BULGARIA, HUNGARY AND SEVERAL OTHER PLACES. WELCOME. YOU HAVE SOME FEELING FOR WHAT IT TAKES TO ESTABLISH LAW AND ORDER IN A LAWLESS CIRCUMSTANCE LIKE THAT. HOW BIG IS THE JOB IN IRAQ?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> WELL, IT'S HUGE BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO START FROM SCRATCH AND TAKE A COUNTRY THAT HAS HAD A CORRUPT POLICE FORCE THAT WAS A TOOL OF THE REGIME.

JESS>> SO CORRUPT THAT THEY CAN'T BE USED NOW?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> WELL, THAT'S ALWAYS THE CHALLENGE AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE TRIED TO DO IN HAITI WAS TO VET THROUGH THE EXISTING MEMBERS IN HAITI -- IT WAS CALLED THE FAH -- AND SEE IF THERE WERE MEMBERS OF THE FORMER FAH THAT COULD BE REHABILITATED AND TURNED INTO MEMBERS OF THE NEW HAITIAN NATIONAL CIVILIAN POLICE FORCE.

JESS>> THERE REALLY ARE SOME PARALLELS BETWEEN HAITI AND IRAQ, ALTHOUGH THE SIZE IS CONSIDERABLY DIFFERENT. HERE YOU HAD A DICTATOR, PAPA DOC DUVALIER, AND A DREADED SECRET POLICE.

MICHAEL BERKOW>> WELL, CERTAINLY, AND YOU HAD A SITUATION WHERE IN HAITI THE POLICE WERE PART OF THE REGIME AND WERE ENGAGED IN ALL KINDS OF VIOLENT AND CORRUPT ACTS. THE SAME ISSUE IS GOING ON IN IRAQ, SO THE ISSUE IS REALLY HOW DO YOU CREATE A TRULY NEW DEMOCRATIC POLICE FORCE THAT WILL FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW?

JESS>> THE CORRUPTION IN IRAQ APPARENTLY DOES NOT END WITH THE MILITARY OR THE DICTATORSHIP OR THE POLICE IN THE LOOTING OF THE MUSEUM. THERE IS EVIDENCE NOW THAT SOME OF THAT WAS DONE WITH PEOPLE WHO HAD KEYS TO THE CASES?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> WELL, I THINK THAT, IN ALL OF THESE COUNTRIES, WHAT YOU FIND IS THE WHOLE SYSTEMS ARE CORRUPT OR PROBLEMATIC. SO WHAT HAPPENS IS, AS YOU BRING THE POLICE FORCE ONLINE, YOU ALSO NEED TO BRING ONLINE JUDICIARY DEFENSE LAWYERS, PROSECUTORS AND A PRISON SYSTEM.

JESS>> ARE YOU CONCERNED AT ALL ABOUT US REQUIRING POLICING BY THE AMERICAN MILITARY?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> THE AMERICAN MILITARY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR EVERY TIME THAT THEY ARE PUSHED INTO THIS ROLE THAT THEY WOULD PREFER NOT TO BE DOING IT AND THAT, IF THEY HAVE TO DO IT, THEY WANT TO DO FOR AS SHORT A PERIOD OF TIME AS POSSIBLE. THE REALITY IS THAT IT TAKES TIME TO BUILD A NEW POLICE FORCE. THE POLICE ARE ENGAGED IN THEIR MISSION FROM THE MOMENT THEY ARE SWORN IN AND PUT IN ACTION. UNLIKE A MILITARY FORCE, WHERE IF YOU'RE CREATING A MILITARY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY, FREQUENTLY THEY'RE JUST WAITING, STANDING BY, TRAINING, PREPARING FOR THEIR MISSION. THE POLICE ARE ENGAGED FROM MOMENT ONE WHICH MAKES IT TOUGH TO DEAL WITH THAT GAP IN TIME.

JESS>> AND THE LOOTING WAS SO WIDESPREAD, IT WAS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL IT, WASN'T IT?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> CERTAINLY, AND THAT AGAIN HAS BEEN OUR EXPERIENCE IN EVERY COUNTRY WHERE WE'VE HAD THIS SITUATION. PANAMA IN 1989 WAS OUR FIRST EXPERIENCE WHERE WE TOOK APART THE SECURITY FORCES AND THEN HAD TO REBUILD THEM. THIS IS A SITUATION THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN IN, THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS BEEN IN. THEY HAVE A TRACK RECORD NOW AND WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO, LIKE MYSELF, HAVE SPENT EXTENSIVE PERIODS OF TIME OVERSEAS AND I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT THEY'LL GET IT TOGETHER IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

JESS>> ONE OF THE PROBLEMS, TOO, FOR THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, THE PENTAGON, IS THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE OUR SOLDIERS AS BEING LIBERATORS, BUT WHEN THEY'RE ASSIGNED THE JOB OF POLICING, THEY LOOK MORE AND MORE LIKE OCCUPIERS.

MICHAEL BERKOW>> WELL, I THINK IT'S THE CLASSIC SITUATION. THE POLICE JOB IS FULL OF GRAYS. THE MILITARY JOB IS FAIRLY BLACK AND WHITE. CLOSE WITH THE ENEMY AND DESTROY WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE. IN THE POLICE JOB, YOU HAVE TO SORT THROUGH WHO'S THE GOOD GUY, WHO'S THE BAD GUY, WHO'S TO BE BELIEVED, WHO'S NOT, AND YOU HAVE A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TASK IN MANY WAYS.

JESS>> WE'VE TALKED ABOUT PARALLELS BETWEEN HAITI AND IRAQ, BUT SOMALIA WAS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY, WASN'T IT?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> IT WAS, AND THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN SOMALIA WAS THAT THERE WAS NO GOVERNMENT. SO WE WERE TRYING TO CREATE A POLICE FORCE IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT ON THE GOVERNMENT. FIVE DIFFERENT MEN HAD DECLARED THEMSELVES PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY, NO ONE HAD THE POWER TO DEFEAT THE OTHER FOUR, SO THE RESULT WAS THAT WE WERE BUILDING A POLICE FORCE IN A VACUUM. IT WAS UNCLEAR WHO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS GOING TO SERVE.

JESS>> HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT RECRUITING POLICE IN A SOCIETY LIKE THAT?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> ACTUALLY, I'VE YET TO FIND THAT TO BE A PROBLEM. IN FACT, USUALLY THE PROBLEM IS THE OPPOSITE. THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY FORCE OR THE POLICE FORCE AND YOU HAVE TO RECYCLE THEM INTO SOME OTHER PROFESSION, HOPEFULLY NOT ARMED ROBBERY, SO THAT THEY CAN GO ABOUT AND BECOME LEGITIMATE CITIZENS IN THE COMMUNITY.

JESS>> BUT YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT TO RETRAIN THEM AND TO MAKE HONEST COPS OUT OF THEM?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIFICS OF THE SITUATION. IN SOMALIA, THE SOMALI POLICE HAD BEEN THE FINEST POLICE FORCE IN AFRICA IN THE 1960'S, HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY DEDICATED, NON-CORRUPT AND NON-BRUTAL. THE ISSUE WAS HOW TO REBUILD THEM AS THEY ONCE HAD BEEN. IN HAITI, IT WAS TO START FROM SCRATCH BECAUSE OF THE CORRUPTION ISSUES AND I SUSPECT IRAQ WILL MORE CLOSELY RESEMBLE HAITI THAN SOMALIA.

JESS>> ANY SORT OF TIMETABLE IN YOUR MIND ON HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO BRING PEACE TO IRAQ AFTER THE WAR?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> I THINK THAT PEACE, IN TERMS OF GENERAL SAFETY AND SECURITY, WILL HAPPEN RELATIVELY QUICKLY. WE'RE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE THAT HAPPEN.

JESS>> AS SOON AS WE GET SOME OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BACK AND WORKING?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> EXACTLY, AND GET SOME PEOPLE BACK TO WORK AND GET SOME ROUTINE PATROLS OUT. I THINK THE MORE DIFFICULT CHALLENGE WILL BE WHAT SHOULD THE POLICE LOOK LIKE IN THE FUTURE AND HOW ARE WE GOING TO ORGANIZE AND STRUCTURE THAT? THOSE TASKS ARE GOING TO TAKE CONSIDERABLY MORE THAN A COUPLE OF MONTHS AND WE'RE TALKING YEARS.

JESS>> THERE IS SOME EVIDENCE THAT THE GENERAL POPULATION IN IRAQ IS VERY ANXIOUS FOR ORDER TO BE RESTORED. DOES THAT MEAN THEY'D BE WILLING TO SEE PRETTY FIRM POLICING?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> I'M NOT SURE. I THINK THAT USUALLY WHAT PEOPLE WANT IS A DEMOCRATIC POLICE FORCE THAT FOLLOWS THE RULE OF LAW AS OPPOSED TO A POLICE FORCE THAT IS A TOOL OF ONE PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL OR A REGIME. THE POLICE FORCE IS SOLELY INTENDED TO KEEP THE REGIME IN POWER. THEY'RE QUICKLY GOING TO LOSE LEGITIMACY AND HAVE TO BECOME MORE FORCEFUL.

JESS>> IN THE MINUTE THAT'S LEFT, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE NEW CHALLENGE YOU'VE TAKEN ON. SOMALIA WAS ONE THING, BUT INTERNAL AFFAIRS AT LAPD IS ANOTHER. ANY MISGIVINGS?

MICHAEL BERKOW>> NO, NONE AT ALL. I'VE BEEN VERY GRACIOUSLY RECEIVED BY EVERY MEMBER OF THE LAPD THAT I'VE MET SO FAR. I HAVE AN OUTSTANDING STAFF, IT LOOKS LIKE.

JESS>> YOU GOT A NICE SENDOFF FROM THE IRVINE DEPARTMENT TOO WHEN YOU WERE SWORN IN HERE.

MICHAEL BERKOW>> I DID. I HAD A GREAT JOB IN IRVINE. I WORKED FOR AN OUTSTANDING CITY AND I COULDN'T HAVE A FINER GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN THAT WORKED FOR ME.

JESS>> CHIEF BRATTON IS A VERY PERSUASIVE MAN TOO, APPARENTLY.

MICHAEL BERKOW>> HE CERTAINLY IS.

JESS>> OUR THANKS TO MICHAEL BERKOW, DEPUTY CHIEF OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT.

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JESS>> WE EXPECT POLICE AND FIRE OFFICIALS TO LOOK OUT FOR OUR BEST INTEREST AND TO KEEP US SAFE, BUT PATT SAYS SOMETIMES THEY OVERDO IT AND THAT'S TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT MORRISON>> EVERYONE HAS A THRESHOLD, EVERYONE HAS A TIPPING POINT, EVERYONE HAS A LIMIT, AND I HAVE REACHED MINE. I HAVE FOUND THE EPIPHANY OF FOOLISHNESS. OH, YES, THERE WERE SMALL INTERIM STEPS LIKE HEARING ABOUT THE TEENAGE HONOR STUDENT EXPELLED FOR BRINGING A KNIFE TO SCHOOL, THE ONE HE USED TO SCRAPE RESIN GUNK OFF HIS VIOLIN STRINGS. OR THE OHIO WOMAN ARRESTED FOR DISORDERLY CONDUCT AFTER SHE KINDLY PUT COINS INTO A STRANGER'S EXPIRED PARKING METER. AND THE FIVE-YEAR-OLD BORROWING HIS MOTHER'S BEEPER ON A VISIT TO A PUMPKIN PATCH.

ALL THIS IS PART AND PARCEL OF AMERICANS' FONDNESS FOR SOLVING THE SMALLEST PROBLEMS WITH LAWS AND LAWSUITS INSTEAD OF COMMON SENSE AND AMICABLE RESOLUTIONS. THIS IS NOT NEW. IT DATES BACK TO THE COLONIAL PERIOD. THREE HUNDRED FIFTY YEARS AGO IN PARTS OF VIRGINIA, THE LITIGATION RATE WAS FOUR TIMES WHAT IT IS TODAY AND ONE STUDY COUNTED MORE LAWSUITS PER CAPITA IN 1830 THAN THERE ARE NOW.

FOR ONCE, THIS LATEST ABSURDITY, THANKFULLY, IS NOT CALIFORNIA'S. THE BLUE RIBBON WINNER OF THE MOMENT, AND PERHAPS OF THE AGE, IS FROM BALTIMORE. THE CITY'S NEW FIRE MARSHALL HAS BANNED CANDLES AND OIL LAMPS AND ANY SUCH OPEN FLAMES IN THE CITY'S RESTAURANTS AND BARS. OH, HE LIKES IT COZY AND ROMANTIC, HE SAYS, BUT SAFETY FIRST. THE FIRE MARSHALL SAYS HE'S JUST THINKING OF THE NIGHTCLUB FIRES IN RHODE ISLAND AND CHICAGO AND HOW A RESTAURANT FIRE COULD CAUSE A SIMILAR PANIC. IT'S CERTAINLY A STRETCH. NEITHER OF THESE FIRES HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH CANDLES. HE ALSO SAYS IT'S ONLY TEMPORARY UNTIL HE CAN ISSUE PERMITS, CASE BY CASE, RESTAURANT BY RESTAURANT, BAR BY BAR, THROUGHOUT THE CITY'S FOUR HUNDRED ESTABLISHMENTS.

MAYBE SO OR MAYBE HE'S JUST BLOWING SMOKE. AND ON THAT POINT, BALTIMORE STILL ALLOWS SMOKING IN PARTS OF ITS RESTAURANTS AND ALL OF ITS BARS. YOU CAN LIGHT A CIGARETTE WHEN YOU EAT AND DRINK, BUT NOT A CANDLE. THIS STILL LEAVES MUCH UNADDRESSED. MUST WAITERS NOW HAND OUT TINY FLASHLIGHTS TO READ THE MENUS BY OR WILL ROMANTIC BISTROS HAVE TO BE LIT UP LIKE A MCDONALDS? ARE CREPE SUZETTES GOING TO BE A PUBLIC ENEMY? WILL BANANAS FLAMBÉ COME WITH FIRE EXTINGUISHERS?

SAY WHAT YOU WILL ABOUT THE FRENCH -- AND WE CERTAINLY HAVE OF LATE -- WHATEVER THEY'RE AFRAID OF, IT ISN'T LITTLE LIGHTED CANDLES ON RESTAURANT TABLES.

JESS>> NEXT MONDAY, WE'LL TALK WITH EXPERIMENTAL FILMMAKER, PAT O'NEILL, BUT TONIGHT WE WANT TO GIVE YOU A LITTLE PREVIEW OF HIS LATEST WORK, "THE DECAY OF FICTION". IT'S PREMIERING TOMORROW NIGHT AT THE GETTY MUSEUM. IT'S AN UNUSUAL FILM THAT BRINGS GHOSTS TO THE COFFEE SHOP OF L.A.'S OLD AMBASSADOR HOTEL. HERE'S A BRIEF LOOK.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE FILM, LOG ONTO THE WEBSITE AT WWW.DECAYOFFICTION.COM OR CALL THE NUMBER ON THE SCREEN (310-440-7300) FOR THE GETTY MUSEUM.

AND THAT'S TONIGHT'S PROGRAM. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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