4/21/03

LC030421

JESS MARLOW>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

KILLING MILLIONS OF BIRDS TO STOP A CALIFORNIA EPIDEMIC, BUT ARE AUTHORITIES GOING TOO FAR?

JOHN MILES>> THEY LIQUIDATED WHOLE FLOCKS LIKE THOSE BEHIND ME JUST ON THE FACT THAT THEY WERE EXPOSED. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, I KNOW. IN THE SEVENTIES, IT WAS THIRTEEN MILLION BIRDS, SO I’M TALKING A LOT OF MONEY.

JESS>> AND THEN THE GHOSTLY IMAGES HAUNTING L.A.’S OLD AMBASSADOR HOTEL. THEY’RE BORN IN THE MIND OF AN INDEPENDENT FILMMAKER, PAT O’NEILL, AND TONIGHT WE’LL SEE WHAT ELSE HE’S COOKING UP IN HIS COMPUTER.

PLUS, ONE OF THE TOP SCHOLARS ON THE MIDDLE EAST ASSESSES OUR CHANCES FOR PEACE AFTER THE WAR WITH IRAQ.

IT’S ALL NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I’M JESS MARLOW. VAL HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

TONIGHT THE EPIDEMIC THAT STARTED DOWN ON THE FARM, BUT IT’S MOVING INSIDE SCORES OF CITIES, INCLUDING LOS ANGELES. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT EXOTIC NEWCASTLE DISEASE, A FLU-LIKE PLAGUE THAT AFFECTS BIRDS. HUMANS ARE IMMUNE, BUT THEIR WALLETS ARE NOT. THE DISEASE HAS COST CALIFORNIA’S POULTRY INDUSTRY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE EPIDEMIC IS ALSO HITTING HOME WITH PET OWNERS.

GAY YEE>> PIGS AND COWS AREN’T THINGS YOU’D TYPICALLY FIND ON A LOS ANGELES HIGH SCHOOL CAMPUS, BUT YOU’LL FIND THEM AT CANOGA PARK HIGH, L.A. UNIFIED’S ONLY AGRICULTURE MAGNET SCHOOL. IT’S TUCKED AWAY AMONG THE SHOPPING MALLS IN THE SAN FERNANDO VALLEY. JULIA KIRBY IS A JUNIOR HERE AND A MEMBER OF FUTURE FARMERS OF AMERICA. RECENTLY SHE GOT SOME DISAPPOINTING NEWS, AN OUTBREAK OF THE HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS DEADLY BIRD VIRUS CALLED EXOTIC NEWCASTLE DISEASE. IT MEANS SHE WON’T BE PARTICIPATING IN ANY LIVE POULTRY SHOWS AT LOCAL FAIRS THIS YEAR.

JULIA KIRBY>> AND IT’S A PRETTY BIG PART OF THE FAIR, THE POULTRY AREA, BECAUSE THERE ARE TURKEYS AND CHICKENS AND DUCKS AND GEESE. SO IT’S A BIG PART THAT YOU CAN’T SHOW AT THE FAIR.

GAY YEE>> AS A PRECAUTION, THE SCHOOL PLANS TO BUILD NEW POULTRY PENS AND REPLACE THE GROUND WITH NEW DIRT. IN THE MEANTIME, JULIA IS KEEPING A WATCHFUL EYE OUT FOR ANY SIGN OF ILLNESS.

JULIA KIRBY>> WHEN YOU COME AND FEED THEM, YOU CAN TELL. YOU CAN TELL WHICH ONE MIGHT JUST SIT IN THE CORNER AND NOT DO ANYTHING, OR THEY WON’T EAT. IT’S EASY. SO FAR, THEY HAVEN’T GIVEN US ANY WORRIES.

GAY YEE>> GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY AND EIGHT COUNTIES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ARE UNDER QUARANTINE BECAUSE THE DISEASE COULD DEVASTATE THE STATE’S THREE BILLION DOLLAR POULTRY INDUSTRY AND MORE.

JULIA KIRBY>> IT WILL AFFECT ALL KINDS OF BIRDS BECAUSE IT’S BEEN PASSED AROUND BY ANY KIND, LIKE A PARROT OR, YOU KNOW, PETS TO THE MIGRATING ONES LIKE GEESE, SO WE DON’T WANT IT SPREADING AROUND MORE. IT CAN CONTAMINATE THE AREA AND IT CAN CONTAMINATE THE OTHER ANIMALS.

JOHN MILES>> WE’VE ALREADY SCHEDULED OUR HALL IN EL MONTE FOR OUR ANNUAL SHOW AND THAT’S NOT UNTIL AUGUST. HOPEFULLY, THE QUARANTINE WILL BE LIFTED BY THEN, BUT IF NOT, WE MAY HAVE TO FOREGO OUR SHOW THIS YEAR AND POSSIBLY LOSE THE DEPOSIT ON THE SHOW HALL. LIKEWISE FOR THE CLUBS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA.

GAY YEE>> NO ONE IS MORE AWARE OF THE POTENTIAL HARM OF THIS OUTBREAK THAN JOHN MILES. HE’S VICE PRESIDENT OF THE SAN GABRIEL VALLEY PARAKEET ASSOCIATION AND A CHAMPION BREEDER. THE BIRDS HE BREEDS ARE NOT YOUR TYPICAL PET STORE VARIETY. THESE ARE EXOTIC BUDGERIGARS.

JOHN MILES>> WELL, THESE BIRDS CAN SELL FROM ANYWHERE FROM $25 TO $1,000. TO SOMEONE THAT HAS A BEST IN SHOW WINNER IN EVERY SHOW IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT BIRD’S WORTH A LOT OF MONEY. MORE THAN THE DOLLAR SIGN, THOUGH, IS THE FACT THAT YOU HAD THAT BIRD AND LOST IT. YOU KNOW, YOU CAN’T PROPAGATE IT AND THAT’S WHAT WOULD BE THE DEVASTATING PART OF IT. YOU KNOW, LOSING THE GENE LINE.

GAY YEE>> MILES REMEMBERS THE LAST TIME THERE WAS AN OUTBREAK OF EXOTIC NEWCASTLE DISEASE IN CALIFORNIA.

JOHN MILES>> THEY LIQUIDATED WHOLE FLOCKS LIKE THOSE BEHIND ME JUST ON THE FACT THAT THEY WERE EXPOSED. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, I KNOW. IN THE SEVENTIES, IT WAS THIRTEEN MILLION BIRDS, SO I’M TALKING A LOT OF MONEY.

GAY YEE>> THE VIRUS IS SO VIRULENT THAT A TINY SPECK ON A SHOE OR A PIECE OF CLOTHING CAN WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE AVIARY. AS PROTECTION, VISITORS ARE ASKED TO DISINFECT THEIR SHOES BY STEPPING IN A MIXTURE OF BLEACH AND WATER BEFORE ENTERING AN AVIARY. THAT’S IF VISITORS ARE ALLOWED IN AT ALL.

JOHN MILES>> IT’S BIOPROOF (LAUGHTER), IF YOU WILL.

GAY YEE>> AND WORD IS GETTING OUT TO EXOTIC BIRD BREEDERS VIA THE INTERNET.

JOHN MILES>> THEN YOU GO DOWN HERE TO “IMPORTANT NEWS” AND IT COMES UP WITH CALIFORNIA, WHAT IS NEWCASTLE DISEASE, AND THEN ..

GAY YEE>> BUT MILES SAYS HIS WORST ENEMY IN THIS CRISIS IS IGNORANCE.

JOHN MILES>> IT’S THE LITTLE BACK YARD BREEDERS OF CHICKENS AND THE FIGHTING GAME BIRDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT THAT PEOPLE DON’T GET THE WORD.

GAY YEE>> THIRTY YEARS AGO, THE DISEASE KILLED NEARLY TWELVE MILLION BIRDS AND COST TAXPAYERS NEARLY $56 MILLION DOLLARS TO ERADICATE IT. JULIA KIRBY HOPES THEY CAN GET A HANDLE ON IT TOO BECAUSE, ONCE A BIRD GETS NEWCASTLE, THERE IS NO CURE.

JULIA KIRBY>> SO THERE ARE SOME MILD CASES AND, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN’T TELL, BUT A LOT OF THEM WILL END UP REALLY HARMED, HARMING THE DUCKS AND THE POULTRY.

JESS>> AS THE USDA TRIES TO TRACK DOWN NEWCASTLE DISEASE, IT IS REPORTEDLY LOOKING FOR HELP FROM AN UNLIKELY SOURCE. THE AGENCY IS CALLING ON POSTAL CARRIERS TO ESSENTIALLY ACT AS INFORMANTS BY REPORTING THE ADDRESSES OF BIRD OWNERS. SOME SAY THAT’S GOING TOO FAR. JOINING US NOW IS DAINA CASTELLANO OF THE PARROT SOCIETY OF LOS ANGELES. IN YOUR JUDGMENT, THAT’S GOING TOO FAR?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> IN MY JUDGMENT, THAT WENT WAY TOO FAR, YES.

JESS>> WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BIRDS AS PETS TO DO?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> I AM SUGGESTING THAT THEY ESTABLISH A BIO-SECURITY. I HAVE IT IN MY HOUSE. BEFORE YOU CAN COME INTO MY HOUSE, YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A FOOT BATH. IF I HAVE BEEN ANYWHERE, GROCERY SHOPPING, GETTING GAS, I CHANGE CLOTHES WHEN I COME IN THE DOOR. I GO THROUGH MY FOOT BATH, I TAKE THE CLOTHES OFF, I TAKE A SHOWER AND I PUT ON CLEAN CLOTHES BEFORE I GET NEAR MY BIRD ROOM.

JESS>> AND YOU EXPECT THE SAME FROM ANY VISITORS YOU HAVE, HUH?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> WE DON’T GET VISITORS ANYMORE (LAUGHTER). THEY’RE NOT ALLOWED IN THE HOUSE ANYMORE.

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) WHEN THE BIRDS ARE QUARANTINED, SO ARE THE OWNERS, HUH?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> EXACTLY, RIGHT. BUT IT’S NICE. I CAN HAVE DINNER OUT.

JESS>> HOW LONG DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO LAST?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> I REALLY AM NOT SURE. I KNOW THAT, IN THE SEVENTIES, IT TOOK THREE YEARS TO ERADICATE IT. I’M HOPING THAT IT DOESN’T TAKE THAT LONG THIS TIME.

JESS>> YOU’RE NOT UNSYMPATHETIC WITH THE PLIGHT OF POULTRY FARMERS AND RANCHERS WHO HAVE LOST MILLIONS IN FIGHTING THIS DISEASE.

DAINA CASTELLANO>> ABSOLUTELY NOT. IT’S A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE VIRUS. IT’S A HORRIBLE VIRUS. AND I’M NOT UNSYMPATHETIC WITH THE TASKFORCE. THEY HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB TO DO, BUT I DON’T THINK THEY’VE DONE IT WELL.

JESS>> THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE INSISTING THAT YOU NOT ALLOW ANYBODY IN FROM THE TASKFORCE TO CHECK YOUR BIRDS.

DAINA CASTELLANO>> YOU CAN’T REALLY DO THAT. YOU DO HAVE TO COOPERATE WITH THEM. WHAT WE WANTED THEM TO DO WAS TO STOP ESTABLISHING A ONE-KILOMETER RADIUS AND KILLING EVERYTHING WITH A FEATHER WITHIN THAT RADIUS. WE WANT THEM TO START TESTING THE BIRDS. THE VIRUS DOESN’T MOVE OUT FROM AN EPICENTER. IT DOESN’T MOVE OUT IN A CIRCLE. IT DOES FOLLOW A PARTICULAR TRACK WHETHER THAT’S HUMAN, ANIMAL OR LIVESTOCK OR WHATEVER. IT DOESN’T MOVE OUT FROM A CENTER.

JESS>> WHAT ABOUT YOUR MAIL CARRIER? ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT HE OR SHE IS SUPPOSED TO REPORT YOU?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> NO. ACTUALLY, I’M NOT. I’M FRIENDS WITH MY MAIL CARRIER. I’D BE SURPRISED IF HE DID REPORT ME. AND I’M NOT SURE THAT THEY WOULD BE REPORTING ON EXOTIC BIRDS. I THINK THEY MAY HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON ONLY OUTDOOR CHICKENS OR MAYBE EVEN OUTDOOR BIRDS. I’M NOT SURE. IT MAY HAVE BEEN OUTDOOR EXOTICS, BUT I THINK IT WAS PRIMARILY POULTRY.

JESS>> BUT YOU DON’T THINK THE GOVERNMENT HAS GONE TOO FAR THEN?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> WITH THE POSTAL SERVICE?

JESS>> IN PRYING INTO YOUR PRIVATE --

DAINA CASTELLANO>> -- YES, I DO THINK THAT THAT’S TOO FAR. IT’S LIKE LIVING WITH BIG BROTHER. I DON’T THINK THAT THAT WAS NECESSARY. PEOPLE ARE REPORTING WHEN THEY HAVE SICK CHICKENS OR SICK BIRDS.

JESS>> AND THAT’S ENOUGH?

DAINA CASTELLANO>> THAT’S ENOUGH.

JESS>> ALL RIGHT. OUR THANKS TO DAINA CASTELLANO AND THE PARROT SOCIETY OF LOS ANGELES.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, CUTTING OFF TELEMARKETERS. BUT WILL A NEW STATE LAW BACKFIRE?

>> WITH THE DO NOT CALL LIST ELIMINATING A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION FROM BEING CONTACTED, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLING OBVIOUSLY HAVE TO BE GREATLY REDUCED IN WORKFORCE. AND THE COMPANIES WHO HAD USED THAT AS A CHANNEL TO BRING IN THE CUSTOMERS WILL PROBABLY BE LAYING OFF PEOPLE AS WELL.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE’S TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES “WHAT DO YOU THINK?” POLL. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND WEIGH IN ON THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: DO TELEMARKETERS HAVE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT TO CALL YOU? WE’LL COUNT YOUR RESPONSES AND REPORT THE RESULTS ON TOMORROW NIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> IT WAS ONE OF THOSE MILESTONES OF HISTORY CAPTURED ON TELEVISION AND BURNED INTO OUR MEMORIES. THOSE FALLING STATUES OF SADDAM HUSSEIN AND THE CHEERING IRAQIS GAVE MANY AMERICANS A NEW SENSE OF HOPE. BUT IRAQ IS STILL A COUNTRY WITHOUT A REAL GOVERNMENT AND, EVEN AFTER THE CHAOS THERE ENDS, AMERICA FACES MORE CHALLENGES IN THAT REGION. TONIGHT A LOOK AT THE PROSPECTS FOR PEACE AFTER THE WAR. JOINING US IS PROFESSOR RICHARD DEKMEJIAN. HE’S HEAD OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT USC, ONE OF THE WORLD’S TOP SCHOLARS ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE PERSIAN GULF. PROFESSOR, HOW WOULD YOU GRADE THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN AND THE PERFORMANCE OF THE COALITION?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> THE PERFORMANCE OF THE COALITION IN TERMS OF WINNING THE WAR, OF COURSE, IS "A".

JESS>> THE PROCESS FOR WINNING THE PEACE?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> "C", IF NOT "C-MINUS". THE WAR DID NOT HAVE ANY SURPRISES, ALTHOUGH SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT IN THE ADMINISTRATION THAT THE THING WOULD COLLAPSE AFTER THE FIRST WEEK. BUT IT TOOK ABOUT THREE OR THREE AND A HALF WEEKS AND THERE IS STILL SOME TROUBLE AND THAT IS LIKELY TO PERSIST. THERE'S NO SURPRISE. WE NEVER THOUGHT THAT THE SADDAM REGIME WAS A REAL THREAT TO US IN TERMS OF ITS POWER. THE SURPRISE WAS THAT HE DID NOT USE ANY OF HIS CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

JESS>> THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT HE HAD THEM?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> YES. MY BEST JUDGMENT IS THAT HE HAD THEM, BUT AGAIN, ANOTHER THIRTY COUNTRIES HAVE THEM.

JESS>> THERE IS THE QUESTION OF WHETHER HE WAS AROUND TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> EXACTLY. TWICE, JUST BEFORE THE START OF THE WAR AND THEN ABOUT THE BEGINNING OF THE THIRD WEEK, WE DROPPED THOSE MASSIVE BOMBS AND HE MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN KILLED. BUT IF HE'S ALIVE, SADDAM IS IN THE UNDERGROUND AND I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE IN HIS PLACE BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS HIM. EVEN IF HE COULD MAKE IT TO SYRIA, TURKEY, SAUDI ARABIA, IRAN, JORDAN, NO ONE WANTS HIM. HE HAD A CHOICE OF LEAVING AND PROBABLY SURVIVING HAD HE LEFT BEFORE THE WAR AND WE GAVE HIM THAT CHANCE, BUT HE DID NOT.

JESS>> IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT, AT SOME POINT IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH SADDAM HUSSEIN, HE ASKED YOU TO WRITE HIS BIOGRAPHY. TRUE?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> YES, THAT WAS TWICE. BACK IN 1986, I WAS INVITED BY THE IRAQI AMBASSADOR AT THE UNITED NATIONS TO TRAVEL TO IRAQ TO WRITE A BOOK ON SADDAM. I DECLINED, OF COURSE, BECAUSE I KNEW THAT THE BOOK WOULD HAVE TO BE --

JESS>> -- FAVORABLE, TO SAY THE LEAST.

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> NOT ONLY FAVORABLE, BUT CENSORED (LAUGHTER). THE SECOND TIME, IT WAS IN EARLY 1990 ABOUT FOUR MONTHS BEFORE HE ATTACKED KUWAIT. THAT WAS DONE THROUGH A MUTUAL ACQUAINTANCE WHO USED TO BE HIS ARMS SELLER. HE'S NOT IRAQI AND NOW HE'S NOT IN THIS COUNTRY. HE ACTED AS AN AGENT OF SADDAM AND I HAD TO DECLINE BECAUSE I COULDN'T WRITE AN OBJECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE IRAQI PRESIDENT.

JESS>> GETTING BACK TO THE IMMEDIATE CONCERNS OF PACIFYING THE COUNTRYSIDE IN IRAQ, WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH A REAL WORKING GOVERNMENT THERE, TO RESTORE IRAQ TO IRAQ?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS, FIRST, TRY TO PACIFY THE PLACE AND ALREADY, OF COURSE, AFTER SOME SECTORS OF THE POPULATION, YOU KNOW, WELCOMED US, THEY'VE BEEN TURNING AGAINST US.

JESS>> TURNING AGAINST US AFTER THEY HAD NO POWER, NO WATER AND CHAOS IN THE STREETS?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> EXACTLY. CHAOS AND THE LOOTING. WE WEREN'T READY FOR THE LOOTING. I DON'T KNOW WHY. WE WERE READY AND AGGRESSIVELY SECURING THE OIL FIELDS, BUT NOT THE MUSEUMS AND THE HOSPITALS AND THE LIBRARY WHICH WAS BURNED AND GUTTED. SO THAT WAS A GREAT DISAPPOINTMENT, AT LEAST TO SOME OF US, AND I THINK TO MOST OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT. BUT WE NEED TO MOVE IN VERY QUICKLY TO FILL IN THE VACUUM AND THAT'S NOT EASY TO DO BECAUSE, ON THE ONE HAND, WE DON'T WANT TO BE A DOMINEERING SORT OF AMERICAN IMPERIUM.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS A VACUUM IN LEADERSHIP AND, FOR US TO BRING TOGETHER THE KIND OF LEADERSHIP THAT WILL BE ABLE TO PACIFY THAT COUNTRY AND TRY TO KEEP IT UNITED AT LEAST AND GOVERNABLE, IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME. WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE SO-CALLED CONSOCIATIONAL PRINCIPLE WHEREBY THIS MULTI-ETHNIC SOCIETY NEEDS TO BE GOVERNED IN A FEDERAL STRUCTURE WHERE EACH COMMUNITY NEEDS TO GOVERN ITSELF AND THEY'D BE CONNECTED TO THE CENTER WHICH WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ECONOMY, DEFENSE, FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND GENERAL SECURITY.

JESS>> NO SMALL TASK YOU'RE OUTLINING FOR US. BUT AN EVEN GREATER TASK SOME PEOPLE ARE SUGGESTING IS TO AGAIN REGAIN THE CONFIDENCE OF THE REST OF THE ARAB WORLD WHICH IS CLEARLY ANGRY AT THE UNITED STATES.

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> WELL, ANGRY IS NOT THE WORD. MUCH MORE THAN ANGRY, THEY'RE FURIOUS AT US AND THAT MAY HAVE SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES IN TERMS OF TERRORISM. BUT I WOULD SIMPLY GET THE UNITED NATIONS INVOLVED AND THE ARAB WORLD INVOLVED. NOT EVERY ARAB COUNTRY, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ARAB COUNTRIES WHO CAN REALLY HELP US. THE EGYPTIANS, THE JORDANIANS, THE SYRIANS.

JESS>> THE SYRIANS?

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> OH, OF COURSE. THEY HAVE TREMENDOUS INFLUENCE ON THE IRAQI POPULATION AND THEY COULD REALLY HELP US.

JESS>> THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DESCRIBED SYRIA AS A ROGUE NATION.

RICHARD DEKMEJIAN>> I WOULD NOT DESCRIBE THEM AS SUCH. REMEMBER THAT SYRIA HELPED US TREMENDOUSLY WHEN WE WERE CHASING AROUND THE AL QAEDA.

JESS>> ALL RIGHT. WE HAVE MUCH MORE TO TALK ABOUT AND WE'LL DO THIS AGAIN SOMETIME SOON, I HOPE. OUR THANKS TO PROFESSOR RICHARD DEKMEJIAN FROM USC.

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JESS>> HE IS A PIONEER OF EXPERIMENTAL FILMMAKING AND SOME OF THE IMAGES HE CREATES ARE NOTHING SHORT OF AMAZING. PAT O'NEILL BEGAN EXPERIMENTING WITH FILM IN THE EARLY SIXTIES. HIS LATEST WORK WAS FILMED OVER A TWO-YEAR SPAN AT L.A.'S VENERABLE OLD AMBASSADOR HOTEL. WE'LL MEET O'NEILL IN A MOMENT, BUT FIRST HERE'S A LOOK AT "THE DECAY OF FICTION".

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> IS IT FAIR TO CALL THAT A LAYERED FILM?

PAT O'NEILL>> VERY MUCH SO. THE BACKGROUND IS SHOT AT ONE TIME AND THE FOREGROUND, THE ACTORS, WERE SHOWN A SEPARATE TIME.

JESS>> NOW THAT IS THE COFFEE SHOP OF THE OLD AMBASSADOR HOTEL?

PAT O'NEILL>> IT'S THE COFFEE SHOP BUILT IN 1948 BY PAUL WILLIAMS, THE ARCHITECT.

JESS>> YOU SPENT A LONG TIME IN THE AMBASSADOR FILMING THIS, DIDN'T YOU?

PAT O'NEILL>> YES. I GOT ACCESS TO THE PLACE THROUGH A FRIEND WHO INTRODUCED ME TO THE MANAGER IN 1994. IT BELONGED TO SOME INVESTORS THAT WERE GOING TO TEAR IT DOWN AND BUILD A HIGH-RISE OFFICE BUILDING. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, THEY WERE JUST SITTING ON IT. IT WAS AN EMPTY BUILDING, EVERYTHING WAS GONE, THE FURNITURE WAS GONE, AND WE GOT TO JUST MOVE IN AND SET OUR CAMERAS UP AND SHOOT. WE SHOT TIME LAPSE FOOTAGE, ANIMATION BASICALLY.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> IT'S STILL A GRAND OLD BUILDING.

PAT O'NEILL>> THAT'S THE FRONT AND THEN THIS IS THE LOBBY OF THE COCOANUT GROVE.

JESS>> WHICH HAD MANY TRANSFORMATIONS, AS I RECALL.

PAT O'NEILL>> YES, IT DID. THE COCOANUT TREES WERE LONG GONE.

JESS>> WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THE AMBASSADOR?

PAT O'NEILL>> WELL, IT'S SUCH AN AMAZING REPOSITORY FOR HISTORY. THE REASON I WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN IT WAS JUST AS A SITE FOR FILMING THE MOVEMENT OF LIGHT OVER A SPACE. BUT THE LONGER WE SPENT THERE, THE MORE WE STARTED PICKING UP STORIES ABOUT IT.

JESS>> ONE OF THE STORIES ABOUT IT, THERE ARE MANY RUMORS THAT THERE ARE GHOSTS IN THE AMBASSADOR HOTEL. YOU SEEM TO REFLECT THAT (LAUGHTER).

PAT O'NEILL>> WELL, WE PUT SOME IN, BUT I NEVER ACTUALLY SAW ONE THERE (LAUGHTER). THE STRANGEST PART IS PROBABLY THE ROOM WHERE BOBBY KENNEDY WAS KILLED, WHICH IS SORT OF THE DEFINING EXPERIENCE OF THE HOTEL FOR MANY PEOPLE. IT BASICALLY MARKED THE END OF ITS PERIOD AS A LUXURY HOTEL.

JESS>> PAT O'NEILL IS KNOWN AS AN AVANT-GARDE FILMMAKER. WHY THIS PARTICULAR STYLE?

PAT O'NEILL>> WELL, I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO USE THE MEDIUM TO DO THINGS THAT WERE NOT STRICTLY NARRATIVE, THAT WERE NOT DEFINABLE CLEARLY IN ANY GENRE OF FILMMAKING. I WORK PARTLY AS A DOCUMENTARIAN AND PARTLY AS AN EXPERIMENTAL NARRATIVE FILMMAKER. THIS IS ACTUALLY THE FIRST TIME I'VE MADE A FILM WITH A CAST. WE HAD THIRTY-SOME ACTORS, SO IT WAS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

JESS>> AND YOU DO A SECTION, A FILM OF THE THIRTIES. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> THE TITLE OF YOUR FILM IS "THE DECAY OF FICTION". HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO WHAT WE JUST SAW?

PAT O'NEILL>> WELL, I'M INTERESTED IN STORIES THAT ARE IN THE ACT OF FALLING APART, STORIES THAT ARE IN FRAGMENTS THAT SOMETIMES ARE SOMETHING THAT YOU REMEMBER FROM A PICTURE YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN YEARS BEFORE AND DON'T REMEMBER WHERE IT CAME FROM.

JESS>> A LITTLE DEJA VU WORKING THERE?

PAT O'NEILL>> YEAH. SOME OF THE MATERIAL I WROTE, BUT WROTE WITH MEMORIES OF OTHER FILMS. PRIMARILY FILMS WHEN I WAS A KID, SO THIS IS, YOU KNOW, MID-FORTIES TO MID-FIFTIES. I ALWAYS SORT OF FELT THE PLACE WAS KIND OF A NOIR SITE. I MEAN, IT HAD A SORT OF TENSION ABOUT IT THAT HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH ITS VERY PROMINENT POSITION IN THE FILM INDUSTRY AND ALL OF THE INTRIGUES THAT TOOK PLACE THERE OVER THE YEARS.

JESS>> SOUNDS LIKE THIS FILM SORT OF PLAYED OUT IN YOUR HEAD.

PAT O'NEILL>> IT DID, IT DID. I NEVER STARTED TO MAKE AN HISTORIC FILM ABOUT HOLLYWOOD. I JUST WAS PRESENTED THIS BUILDING AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE IN IT AND, THE MORE TIME I SPENT THERE, THE MORE PEOPLE I MET THAT HAD STORIES TO TELL. IT ALL SORT OF BEGAN TO FEED INTO IT.

JESS>> YOUR FILM IS CHALLENGING, BUT DOES THE AUDIENCE GET IT?

PAT O'NEILL>> THEY HAVE SO FAR. WE'VE SHOWN THE FILM IN THE NEW YORK FILM FESTIVAL FIRST AND IT WAS WELL REVIEWED.

JESS>> HERE'S THE FAMOUS POOL AT THE AMBASSADOR.

PAT O'NEILL>> YEAH, THIS IS THE OLD POOL THAT'S BEEN EMPTY FOR YEARS. THE WAY WE'RE SHOOTING FRAME BY FRAME, WE CAN ENCOMPASS THE CHANGE OF LIGHT OVER THE COURSE OF A DAY --

JESS>> -- AND MOVEMENT.

PAT O'NEILL>> -- AND THE CAMERA IS MOVING GRADUALLY AND THEN WE'RE ABLE TO POSITION OUR ACTORS IN A WAY TO FIT THEM IN IN POST-PRODUCTION.

JESS>> HOW MANY DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES DO YOU EMPLOY TO CREATE THIS LAYERED FILM?

PAT O'NEILL>> THIS IS FAIRLY SIMPLE, BASICALLY. IT IS BASED ON HAVING A COMPUTER CONTROLLED CAMERA THAT MAKES A MOVE AND REMEMBERS IT, SO YOU CAN SET IT UP A SECOND TIME AND SHOOT SOMETHING ELSE AND IT WILL FIT. THAT'S HOW WE CAN MOVE OVER PEOPLE SITTING AT A TABLE AND THEY STAY WITH THE BACKGROUND.

JESS>> IT'S A FASCINATING GLIMPSE AT A DIFFERENT STYLE OF FILM FOR MOST OF US, AND WE WISH YOU GREAT SUCCESS. I SHOULD NOTE THAT, LATER THIS MONTH, THE 2003 GOLDEN GATE PERSISTENCE OF VISION AWARD WILL BE PRESENTED TO YOU AT THE SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL FILM FESTIVAL. QUITE A TRIBUTE.

PAT O'NEILL>> I APPRECIATE IT.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

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