5/5/03

LC030505

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> THE SAFETY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA’S WATER SUPPLY. WHY ARE SOME LOCAL EXPERTS WORRIED ABOUT AN OLD URANIUM MINE IN UTAH?

BILL HEDDON>> THE METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS ISSUE BECAUSE THEY POINT OUT THAT URANIUM IS ONE OF THE CARCINOGENS THAT IS DANGEROUS AT ANY LEVEL AND THEY DON’T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY CURRENTLY TO REMOVE THAT FROM THE WATER.

VAL>> AND THEN THE STORMY PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN A FAMOUS DANCE COMPANY AND AN EQUALLY FAMOUS ILLUSTRATOR. A LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CREATIVE MINDS COLLIDE.

JESS>> PLUS, ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS MANHUNTS IN HISTORY, THE SEARCH FOR DR. LIVINGSTONE IN THE DEPTHS OF AFRICA.

VAL>> IT’S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> DEALING WITH A PILE OF RADIOACTIVE WASTE.

JESS>> IT’S ON THE BANKS OF THE COLORADO RIVER IN UTAH, BUT THAT FARAWAY PROBLEM IS A SOURCE OF CONCERN TO SOME OFFICIALS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA SINCE THAT RIVER IS A SOURCE OF MUCH OF OUR WATER. AS DAVID GARCIA REPORTS, THE PROBLEM COMES FROM AN OLD URANIUM MINE ACTIVE IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE COLD WAR AND STILL RADIOACTIVE NOW, NOW THAT IT’S CLOSED.

DAVID GARCIA>> A RATHER CLEVER DISGUISE. IT LOOKS LIKE A FAIRLY HARMLESS LANDFILL, TERRACED, DEEP RED LIKE THE ROCKS ALL OVER THIS AREA IN SOUTHEASTERN UTAH. MOAB, UTAH IS JUST ACROSS THE COLORADO RIVER, GATEWAY TO ARCHES NATIONAL PARK AND THOSE INCREDIBLE ROCK FORMATIONS THAT ATTRACT MILLIONS OF TOURISTS EACH YEAR. IDYLLIC UNTIL YOU TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE SIGNS ALONG THE FENCE.

THIS ELEVEN-STORY RED PILE IS THE RADIOACTIVE WASTE BYPRODUCT, OR TAILINGS, FROM A URANIUM MINE, THE ATLAS URANIUM MINE WHICH BEGAN OPERATIONS IN THE MID-1950’S. APPARENTLY, AT THE TIME, NOBODY THOUGHT ABOUT ANY FUTURE DANGER FROM ALL THE RADIOACTIVE TAILINGS WHICH STARTED PILING UP FROM THE BEGINNING. THE MINE CLOSED IN THE MID-1980’S, BUT THE POTENTIAL HUMAN DANGER IS STAGGERING. BILL HEDDON OF THE GRAND CANYON NATIONAL TRUST LEADS THE CITIZEN EFFORT TO GET THE URANIUM PILE MOVED.

BILL HEDDON>> THE DISCHARGE FROM THE TAILINGS PILE INTO THE GROUNDWATER EVER SINCE THE LATE 1950’S HAS AVERAGED ABOUT 57,000 GALLONS A DAY AND THEN THAT UNDERGROUND AQUIFER DISCHARGES INTO THE RIVER AT SOMEWHAT MORE THAN 100,000 GALLONS A DAY. THE RIVER IN THE AREA NEAR THE TAILINGS PILE IS SO CONTAMINATED THAT THE U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY HAS A BIOLOGICAL RESEARCH BRANCH AND THEY WENT IN AND PUT FISH IN CAGES IN THE RIVER ADJACENT TO THE TAILINGS PILE AND THE AMMONIA LEVELS ARE SO HIGH THAT THE FISH ALL DIED IMMEDIATELY. A HUNDRED PERCENT MORTALITY AS SOON AS THE FISH HIT THE RIVER.

DAVID GARCIA>> SO THE FISH DIED. CERTAINLY, THAT’S TERRIBLE, BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE?

BILL HEDDON>> YOU CAN CERTAINLY DILUTE IT. YOU CAN’T REMOVE IT. THE METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS ISSUE BECAUSE THEY POINT OUT THAT URANIUM IS ONE OF THE CARCINOGENS THAT IS DANGEROUS AT ANY LEVEL AND THEY DON’T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY CURRENTLY TO REMOVE THAT FROM THE WATER.

DAVID GARCIA>> SO WE’RE DRINKING WATER WITH RADIOACTIVITY IN IT?

BILL HEDDON>> THE WATER IS WITHIN EPA STANDARDS. I NEED TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT. BUT, YES, THERE IS RADIOACTIVITY IN THIS WATER. IT COMES FROM NATURAL SOURCES AND IT COMES FROM ATLAS. IT’S THERE.

DAVID GARCIA>> BUT IS IT HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA? WHAT ABOUT RADIOACTIVITY AT OUR DRINKING WATER SUPPLIES? WE PUT THAT QUESTION TO METROPOLITAN WATER DISTRICT VICE PRESIDENT, ADAN ORTEGA.

ADAN ORTEGA>> THE ELEVEN-STORY PILE OF URANIUM TAILINGS DO LEECH NOXIOUS CHEMICALS EVERY TIME IT RAINS AND YOU HAVE THE WILDLIFE IN THAT AREA SEVERELY AFFECTED BY WHAT’S HAPPENING THERE. IN MANY RESPECTS, THAT AREA HAS SERVED AS THE CANARY FOR THE REST OF THE LOWER COLORADO RIVER BASIN, SO WE CAN’T AFFORD TO LET MORE CANARIES DIE. I THINK THE WARNINGS ARE OUT THERE. WE NEED TO AVOID THIS URANIUM CONTAMINATING OUR WATER SUPPLY.

DAVID GARCIA>> WITH THE WARNINGS MORE OBVIOUS EVERY DAY, THE QUESTION IS WHAT TO DO ABOUT WHAT’S KNOWN AS THE URANIUM PILE.

ADAN ORTEGA>> WE’RE BASICALLY TAKING THE HARD POSITION AS TO REMOVE IT. THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY SEEMS TO BE TAKING TO THIS RECOMMENDATION. I KNOW GOVERNOR LEAVITT IN UTAH HAS BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN MAKING CALLS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND WE’RE GETTING THE MONIES TO PUT EVERYTHING IN PLACE TO BEGIN THE REMOVAL PROCESS HERE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

DAVID GARCIA>> BUT PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THIS AREA ARGUE WE CAN’T AFFORD TO WAIT A FEW YEARS TO ACT. TO BEGIN WITH, THE URANIUM PILE COULDN’T BE IN A WORSE LOCATION.

BILL HEDDON>> TAILINGS REMAIN DANGEROUS ESSENTIALLY FOREVER. THE ATLAS SITE IS SITTING 110 FEET TALL, IN THE FLOOD PLAIN OF THE SOUTHWEST’S LARGEST RIVER, RIGHT NEXT TO THE ENTRANCE TO A NATIONAL PARK, DIRECTLY ACROSS THE COLORADO RIVER FROM THE LARGEST WETLAND IN THE WHOLE UPPER COLORADO SYSTEM, THE NATURE CONSERVANCY’S MATHESON WETLAND PRESERVE. IT’S IN A NARROW VALLEY WITH THE FASTEST-GROWING TOWN IN THE SOUTHERN PART OF UTAH AND AT THE INTERSECTION OF TWO STATE HIGHWAYS. IT’S AT THE CONJUNCTION OF TWO DIFFERENT FAULT SYSTEMS AND SO IT’S ABOUT AS BAD A LOCATION AS YOU COULD CONCEIVABLY IMAGINE.

DAVID GARCIA>> WHATEVER IS DONE, MOVING IT OR, AS ONE STUDY PROPOSES, CAPPING OR SEALING IT IN PLACE, WILL COST MONEY. SOME ESTIMATES ARE $250 MILLION DOLLARS OR MORE. THE NEXT QUESTION THEN IS WHO’LL GET THE FINAL BILL?

BILL HEDDON>> BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THOSE TAILINGS WERE PRODUCED BY MAKING WEAPONS FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DURING THE COLD WAR, IT SEEMS APPROPRIATE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BELLY UP TO THE BAR AND PAY FOR THIS CLEANUP AND DO IT RIGHT.

JESS>> THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY IS CONSIDERING SIX OPTIONS FOR CLEANING UP THAT RADIOACTIVE MESS IN MOAB, BUT EACH ONE CARRIES ITS OWN SET OF PROBLEMS. EXPERTS SAY THERE ARE MORE THAN 300,000 TRUCKLOADS OF WASTE AT THE SITE AND IT’S VERY POSSIBLE THE MATERIAL WILL BE HAULED AWAY OVER A PERIOD OF SEVERAL MONTHS DOWN A NARROW TWO-LANE HIGHWAY.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, CALIFORNIA CONDORS. DOES THE ENDANGERED BIRD STILL HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE TO SURVIVE IN NATURE? AND WHY IS A LOCAL HUNTER GETTING OFF EASY FOR KILLING ONE? THAT’S TUESDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE’S TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES “WHAT DO YOU THINK?” POLL. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND WEIGH IN ON THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: SHOULD CONDORS BE KEPT IN CAPTIVITY FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION? WE’LL COUNT YOUR RESPONSES AND REPORT THE RESULTS ON TOMORROW NIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> IT’S PROBABLY THE BEST KNOWN UNDERSTATEMENT IN HISTORY. AFTER SEARCHING FOR THREE BITTER YEARS IN AFRICA, AN AMERICAN REPORTER FINALLY ENCOUNTERS THE MAN HE’S LOOKING FOR AND, AT THAT MOMENT, HE UTTERS A PHRASE THAT’S BECOME THE STUFF OF LEGEND: “DR. LIVINGSTONE, I PRESUME?”

JESS>> HOLLYWOOD IMMORTALIZED THE STORY OF STANLEY AND LIVINGSTONE, BUT EVEN THE MOVIES FAILED TO CAPTURE THE TRUE DRAMA OF THAT FAMOUS SEARCH.

VAL>> FOR THAT, YOU CAN TURN TO A NEW BOOK THAT TELLS THE COMPLETE STORY. IT IS CALLED “INTO AFRICA: THE EPIC ADVENTURES OF STANLEY AND LIVINGSTONE”. THE AUTHOR IS MARTIN DUGARD, AN ADVENTURER WHO TRAVELED THE SAME TRAIL AS HENRY STANLEY TO RESEARCH HIS BOOK, AND WE’RE PLEASED TO HAVE HIM HERE TONIGHT TO TELL US FIRST PERSON WHAT IT WAS LIKE. WELCOME.

MARTIN DUGARD>> THANKS. NICE TO BE HERE.

JESS>> THIS WAS NOT A BOOK ABOUT WHAT I DID ON MY SUMMER VACATION.

MARTIN DUGARD>> (LAUGHTER) PRETTY CLOSE. I RETRACED STANLEY’S PATH ACROSS AFRICA AND IT WAS A FUN WAY TO KIND OF INSINUATE MYSELF INTO WHAT HE WENT THROUGH.

VAL>> BUT IT’S VERY DIFFERENT TODAY THAN IT WAS THEN, RIGHT? YOU HAVE ROADS AND TRAINS AND --

MARTIN DUGARD>> -- YOU KNOW, YES AND NO. THE CITIES THEMSELVES ARE VASTLY DIFFERENT, BUT ONCE YOU GET OUT INTO THE AFRICAN SAVANNAH, IT’S LIKE IT WAS BACK THEN. THERE’S VIRTUALLY NO INFRASTRUCTURE THROUGHOUT TANZANIA.

VAL>> WHAT COUNTRY WAS IT THAT YOU WENT THROUGH?

MARTIN DUGARD>> TANZANIA. THERE IS A TRAIN THAT GOES ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND I USED FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE CARS AND THE TRAIN AND THE STUFF LIKE THAT TO GET AROUND, BUT IT WAS STILL VERY RUGGED.

VAL>> NOW THIS MOVIE DEPICTS IT, YOU KNOW, LIKE RIVERS. IS THIS PRETTY ACCURATE AS TO WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE?

MARTIN DUGARD>> IT’S JUST LIKE THAT. YOU STILL SEE HIPPOS IN THE STREAMS. YOU SEE GIRAFFE ALL OVER THE PLACE. YOU SEE SO MANY ELEPHANTS THAT THEY KIND OF BECOME PASSÉ. THE ONLY THING YOU DON’T SEE A LOT OF ARE LIONS. YOU’VE REALLY GOT TO LOOK FOR THE LIONS.

VAL>> BUT YOU SAW ONE?

MARTIN DUGARD>> SAW ONE, SAW TWO ACTUALLY, YEAH.

JESS>> ACTUALLY, EVEN GREATER IT SEEMS TO BE FROM THE POLITICAL INSTABILITY OF THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

MARTIN DUGARD>> YEAH, IT KIND OF GIVES IT A RABID KIND OF MANIC FEEL WHEN YOU GO TO SOME OF THOSE TOWNS, ESPECIALLY TABARRO WHICH WAS WHERE STANLEY AND LIVINGSTON STAYED TOGETHER FOR A WHILE. THERE’S JUST A KIND OF HOSTILITY THERE AND IT MAKES YOU UNCOMFORTABLE.

VAL>> BUT THIS BOOK IS TOLD FROM WHICH PERSPECTIVE? THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE NEW YORK TIMES REPORTER THAT WAS DETERMINED TO FIND LIVINGSTONE, OR FROM DR. LIVINGSTONE, OR NEITHER?

MARTIN DUGARD>> NO, YOU KNOW WHAT I DO IS I GO BACK AND FORTH. I’LL HAVE A STANLEY CHAPTER, THEN A LIVINGSTONE CHAPTER AND THEN I’LL EVEN GO TO JAMES GORDON BENNETT, WHO WAS THE NEWSPAPER OWNER WHO SENT STANLEY ON THE MISSION, THEN I’LL GO TO SIR RODERICK MURCHISON WHO WAS THE ROYAL GEOGRAPHIC PRESIDENT WHO SENT LIVINGSTONE TO FIND THE SOURCE OF THE NILE, WHICH IS HOW LIVINGSTONE GOT LOST.

VAL>> THAT’S HOW HE GOT LOST. OKAY, SO, HE WAS AN EXPERIENCED EXPLORER.

MARTIN DUGARD>> WELL, AT THE TIME, HE WAS LIKE A ROCK STAR. I MEAN, HE WAS SO FAMOUS THAT HE WAS MOBBED ON THE STREETS OF LONDON. HE WAS EVEN MOBBED WHEN HE WOULD GO TO CHURCH. HE WAS THAT FAMOUS. HE HAD SPENT MOST OF THE PREVIOUS THIRTY YEARS IN AFRICA AND HE HAD COME HOME AND HE THOUGHT HE WAS ALL DONE WITH HIS EXPLORATIONS. THEN A VERY FAMOUS PUBLIC DEBATE, CALLED THE NILE DUAL, SIR RICHARD FRANCIS BURTON AND SIR JOHN HANNING SPEKE WERE SUPPOSED TO DEBATE ABOUT WHERE THE SOURCE OF THE NILE ACTUALLY WAS. THEY HAD TWO DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. SPEKE KILLED HIMSELF JUST BEFORE THE DEBATE, SO THE ROYAL GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY SENT LIVINGSTONE BACK ON THIS ONE LAST MISSION TO FIND THE SOURCE OF THE NILE. HE SAID HE WOULD BE GONE TWO YEARS, BUT SIX YEARS LATER, HE STILL WASN’T FOUND AND THAT’S WHEN THE AMERICANS WENT IN.

JESS>> IN RESEARCHING THIS BOOK, YOU HAD ACCESS TO THE ROYAL GEOGRAPHIC SOCIETY’S FILES. WHAT DID YOU FIND?

MARTIN DUGARD>> I FOUND GREAT STUFF. YOU KNOW, I WAS LOOKING THROUGH LIVINGSTONE'S PRIVATE LETTERS AND DROPS OF BLOOD WOULD BE ON SOME PAGES OR DROPS OF SWEAT THAT HAD FALLEN. I JUST IMAGINED HIM THERE IN THE JUNGLE. YOU KNOW, HE WORE MOSQUITO NETTING OVER HIS HEAD BEFORE HE'D GO TO SLEEP, SO HE'S WRITING WITH MOSQUITO NETTING OVER HIS HEAD. I LOOKED AT STANLEY'S ORIGINAL JOURNALS AND IT'S INTERESTING. YOU KNOW, THE PAGE WHERE HE ORIGINALLY SAID, "DR. LIVINGSTONE, I PRESUME"? IS TORN OUT RIGHT THERE. WE DON'T EVEN KNOW IF HE REALLY SAID THAT.

VAL>> WE DON'T KNOW IF HE REALLY SAID THAT?

JESS>> THEY'RE SAYING ALLEGEDLY?

MARTIN DUGARD>> YEAH.

JESS>> OH, PLEASE (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> AND LIVINGSTONE'S ANSWER, BY THE WAY, WAS WHAT?

MARTIN DUGARD>> HE SAID YES AND THEN HE SAID I'M VERY PLEASED TO MEET YOU OR SOMETHING LIKE I'M VERY PLEASED TO BE HERE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

VAL>> OH, I THOUGHT HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE I'M VERY PLEASED TO KNOW YOU'RE NOT FRENCH OR SOME INDICATION (LAUGHTER).

MARTIN DUGARD>> YOU KNOW, LIVINGSTONE THOUGHT THAT STANLEY WAS GOING TO BE FRENCH BECAUSE HE SAW THIS WHITE MAN, BUT HE DIDN'T THINK HE WAS AN AMERICAN BECAUSE HE WAS SUCH AN OPULENT DISPLAY. HE WAS GREATLY RELIEVED THAT HE WASN'T FRENCH BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THAT THEY'D BE TWO WHITE MEN WHO DIDN'T SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE IN AFRICA AND HE THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE THE GREATEST WASTE.

JESS>> PART OF THE FASCINATION OF YOUR BOOK, APPARENTLY, IS THE FACT THAT YOU'RE NOT ONLY AN EXPLORER, BUT YOU'RE ALSO AN HISTORIAN.

MARTIN DUGARD>> YEAH.

JESS>> AND THEY WORK TOGETHER.

MARTIN DUGARD>> THEY WORK TOGETHER REALLY WELL. I FEEL LIKE IT KIND OF ADDS DEPTH TO THE STORY. I CAN LEARN SOMETHING THAT SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO REALLY BE OUT THERE MIGHT NOT ADD. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT KIND OF CARRIES OVER INTO THE REST OF MY LIFE AS WELL BECAUSE IT GIVES HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE TO ANYTHING ELSE THAT I MIGHT DO, SOME OF THE ADVENTURES THAT I MIGHT TAKE IN MY LIFE.

VAL>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND SO INTERESTING IS THAT YOU SAID THAT BOTH OF THESE MEN, STANLEY AND LIVINGSTONE, APPROACHED NATURE AND THE AFRICAN CONTINENT VERY DIFFERENTLY. HOW SO?

MARTIN DUGARD>> WELL, LIVINGSTONE LOVED AFRICA. I MEAN, HE INSINUATED HIMSELF INTO THE FIBER OF AFRICA. HE WOULD LINGER IN A VILLAGE FOR MONTHS AND HE LOVED THE PEOPLE AND HE WAS VERY FOND OF THE LOCAL WOMEN. HE JUST HAD AN ADMIRATION FOR ALL THINGS AFRICAN.

VAL>> AND HE ADAPTED, ALMOST BECAME PART OF IT?

MARTIN DUGARD>> YEAH, AND HE WAS ABLE TO GET BY WITH VERY MINIMAL SUPPLIES. STANLEY, ON THE OTHER HAND, DIDN'T LIKE AFRICA AT THE TIME. HE CAME TO ENJOY IT A GREAT DEAL, BUT HE HAD THIS HUGE CARAVAN, THE BIGGEST CARAVAN TO THAT POINT. HE HAD SPENT, YOU KNOW, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, THE EQUIVALENT OF ABOUT $100,000 U.S. NOW TO OUTFIT THIS ENTIRE CARAVAN. HE JUST BASICALLY CHARGED THROUGH THERE AND, YOU KNOW, HE WHIPPED HIS PORTERS, HE WOULD PUT THEM IN DOG COLLARS. HE WAS NOT A NICE MAN, SO TWO DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW.

JESS>> AND VERY DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW. YOU QUOTE DR. LIVINGSTONE AS SAYING "NO ONE CAN TRULY APPRECIATE THE CALM OF REPOSE UNLESS HE'S UNDERGONE SEVERE EXERTION." HE LIVED BY THAT CODE THEN?

MARTIN DUGARD>> OH, HE DID. AS A MATTER OF FACT, HE WROTE THAT JUST AT THE OUTSET OF THIS JOURNEY. IT'S ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE WROTE IN HIS JOURNAL. WHEN YOU READ IT, YOU CAN TELL HE WAS SO HAPPY TO BE ONCE AGAIN IN THE WILD, JUST MARCHING, FREE OF THE CONSTRAINTS OF CIVILIZATION. HE WAS VERY MUCH A LONER. HE LOVED SOLITUDE, SO HE WAS OUT THERE AND HE WAS JUST SO HAPPY TO BE AWAY FROM LONDON AND THE GLITZ.

JESS>> NOW STANLEY WAS NOT A NICE MAN IN YOUR VIEW, BUT LIVINGSTONE WAS A GREAT GENTLEMAN?

MARTIN DUGARD>> LIVINGSTONE COULD BE VERY SHORT WITH PEOPLE. HE WAS VERY MOODY. I THINK HE REALLY LIKED HIS SPACE. BUT EVEN THOUGH STANLEY WAS KIND OF A JERK, I HAVE A LOT OF ADMIRATION FOR WHAT HE DID. WITH THE TWO OF THEM, IT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING --

JESS>> -- HE WAS A NEWSPAPER REPORTER (LAUGHTER).

MARTIN DUGARD>> (LAUGHTER) A NEWSPAPER REPORTER, EXACTLY.

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) THERE YOU GO.

MARTIN DUGARD>> BUT, YOU KNOW, AFTER THEY MET, LIVINGSTONE HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON STANLEY AND STANLEY CHANGED HIS ENTIRE PERSONA AFTER THAT. HE BECAME A MUCH WARMER, COMPASSIONATE PERSON. YOU KNOW, HIS FATHER HAD BEEN THE TOWN DRUNK AND HIS MOTHER WAS THE TOWN WHORE, SO HE'D ALWAYS BEEN KIND OF DISENFRANCHISED. WITH LIVINGSTONE, HE FINALLY HAD A FATHER FIGURE AND HE CHANGED HIMSELF ENORMOUSLY AFTER THAT.

VAL>> AND WHAT WAS LIVINGSTONE'S EXPLANATION FOR -- WAS HE LOST OR DID HE NOT WANT TO BE FOUND? WHAT HAPPENED?

MARTIN DUGARD>> WELL, IT'S A MARVELOUS STORY. WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT HIS POSSESSIONS WERE STOLEN. HE HAD PORTERS THAT JUST RAN OFF AND TOOK ALL HIS POSSESSIONS. THEN HIS RE-SUPPLY THAT WAS WAITING FOR THEM IN THE TOWN OF UJIJI, HE FINALLY MADE IT BACK THERE TO GET HIS SUPPLIES AND THE LOCAL ARAB POPULATION HAD TAKEN ALL OF HIS SUPPLIES FROM HIM. SO HE WAS BASICALLY IMPOVERISHED AND HE WAS UNABLE TO GET BACK TO CIVILIZATION. HE WAS STUCK.

VAL>> AHA, STUCK, BUT MADE THE MOST OF IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MARTIN DUGARD. AGAIN, THE BOOK IS CALLED "INTO AFRICA: THE EPIC ADVENTURES OF STANLEY AND LIVINGSTONE".

JESS>> WE ALWAYS ENJOY READING YOUR LETTERS AND E-MAILS ABOUT OUR PROGRAM AND, THIS WEEK, WE HAVE A FEW WE WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU.

VAL>> ONE MAN FROM MARINA DEL REY IS UPSET WITH PLANS TO TURN TOPANGA CANYON INTO A STATE PARK AND BULLDOZE BUSINESSES AT THE ENTRANCE ON PCH:

"THE STATE IS LOSING ALL THE CHARM THAT THOSE OF US WHO GREW UP HERE NOW CAN ONLY REMEMBER. THE FURNITURE STORE AND THE ARTISTS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANOTHER PLACE TO PICNIC."

VAL>> ANOTHER VIEWER DISAGREES WITH AN AUTHOR WHO WANTS AMERICANS TO GET AS MUCH VACATION TIME AS EUROPEAN WORKERS:

"...DISCUSS WHAT EXCESS VACATION TIME AND SHORT WORKWEEK HAS DONE TO FRENCH PRODUCTIVITY AND STANDARD OF LIVING, NOT TO MENTION THE PROBLEMS FACED BY THEIR RETIREMENT SCHEMES."

VAL>> OUR REPORT ON POTENTIAL PROBLEMS WITH FARM-RAISED SALMON PROMPTED THIS COMPARISON:

"IT'S SUFFERING FROM MANY OF THE PROBLEMS WE SEE IN THE MASS-PRODUCED CORN-FED CATTLE WITH HIGH LEVELS OF SATURATED FAT. NOW WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A COW EATING CORN?"

VAL>> AND WE CHOSE JUST ONE LETTER TO SPEAK FOR MANY VIEWERS WHO REACTED TO THE NEWS THAT JESS IS RETIRING AT THE END OF MAY:

"YOU'RE A FRIEND I'VE NEVER MET, BUT I FEEL LIKE I KNOW YOU. I'VE BEEN YOUR FAN SINCE THE EARLY 1970'S. THIS IS TO SAY THANKS AND TO WISH YOU ALL THE BEST BECAUSE YOU SURE DO DESERVE IT."

TO SEND A COMMENT OR A QUESTION TO OUR PROGRAM, YOU CAN REACH US BY MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS:

LIFE AND TIMES
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90027

YOU CAN ALSO CALL OUR VIEWER COMMENT LINE (323) 953-5555) OR CONTACT US THE FAST WAY BY E-MAIL AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> IT'S BEEN CALLED A CASE OF ARTISTIC COMBAT. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED WHEN ACCLAIMED CHILDREN'S AUTHOR AND ILLUSTRATOR, MAURICE SENDAK, TEAMED UP WITH AN INNOVATIVE DANCE TROUPE. THE IDEA WAS TO CHOREOGRAPH A STORY BASED ON THE HOLOCAUST.

VAL>> THE DANCE TROUPE IS PILOBOLUS, KNOWN FOR ITS CUTTING EDGE IMPROVISATIONAL STYLE. BUT AS THE NEW DOCUMENTARY REVEALS, WHEN TWO CREATIVE FORCES COME TOGETHER, THERE ARE OFTEN SPARKS.

>> "IT SEEMS TO ME THE STORY NOW IS GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE IT GOES THROUGH THE SIEVE OF PLAIN STORY-TELLING INTO THE BODIES OF THE DANCERS, IF YOU WILL, AND HOW ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE THIS STORY WORK? IF WE ALL STILL AGREE ON THE STORY IS PEOPLE AT A TRAIN STATION, OKAY?

>> LAUGHTER.

>> YOU ALREADY DON'T AGREE?

>> YES, I ALREADY DON'T AGREE.

>> TELL YOUR STORY.

>> LOOK, THERE IS NO PAT STORY. MAURICE DIDN'T HAVE A SET STORY AT THE BEGINNING. I DON'T HAVE A SET STORY NOW. WHY BE CLOSED MINDED ABOUT THIS?

>> BECAUSE WE GOT TO CHOREOGRAPH.

>> SO WHAT? WE CAN CHANGE THE STORY ANY WAY WE LIKE.

>> BUT THAT IS THE STORY. THAT IS THE ARMATURE. I'M A STORY-TELLER.

>> THAT, I THINK, IS ONE OF THE MAIN PROBLEMS BECAUSE THE BEST SOLUTION IS MOVEMENT THAT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

>> THAT MEANS YOU CAN DO IT ON YOUR OWN. IT KIND OF LEAVES US OUT IN THE COLD. EVEN THOUGH WE'D BE WILLING AND OPEN TO SEE ANYTHING NEW AND FRESH HAPPEN --

>> -- WE'RE DOING IT SOFTLY, I THINK, AS BEST WE CAN AND IT'S --

>> -- BUT IT'S NOT SOFTLY, IT'S NOT SOFTLY. IT'S LIKE A SCUD MISSILE. I FEEL BUMPED OFF THE RAILS AT THIS POINT."

VAL>> THE DOCUMENTARY IS CALLED "LAST DANCE" AND JOINING US NOW IS THE DIRECTOR, MIRRA BANK. WELCOME.

MIRRA BANK>> VERY HAPPY TO BE HERE.

JESS>> GIVEN THAT CONVERSATION, IT'S AMAZING THAT THIS EVER CAME OFF.

MIRRA BANK>> WELL, THE FILM REALLY FEELS A LOT LIKE A THRILLER IN CERTAIN WAYS. I MEAN, AN ARTISTIC THRILLER. BUT IT HAS THE MOMENT-TO-MOMENT QUALITY OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND WILL IT SUCCEED OR WILL IT FAIL? THAT'S VERY GRIPPING ACTUALLY.

JESS> IS THERE A LESS LIKELY SUBJECT FOR A DANCE PRODUCTION THAN THE HOLOCAUST?

MIRRA BANK>> WELL, I THINK THAT WAS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MADE IT INTRIGUING FOR THEM AND ALSO FOR ME AS A FILMMAKER. I THINK IT IS A BIG CHALLENGE AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE ALL FACED WITH AS WE HAVE MORE DISTANCE IN TIME FROM THE REAL EVENT IS WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT SUBJECT? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT?

VAL>> BUT MY QUESTION IS, HOW IS IT THAT A FAMOUS CHILDREN'S AUTHOR AND ILLUSTRATOR EVER TEAMED UP WITH A DANCE TROUPE? I MEAN, THEY'RE BOUND TO NOT GET ALONG, YOU KNOW. HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

MIRRA BANK>> WELL, THEY DID AND THEY DIDN'T GET ALONG. I MEAN, ACTUALLY, THOSE THINGS ARE VERY INTENSE AND THEY HAVE A KIND OF REAL BOND AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE THEIR PROBLEMS.

VAL>> BUT IS MAURICE SENDAK INTERESTED IN CHOREOGRAPHY OR DANCE THEATER OR HOW DID THAT WORK?

MIRRA BANK>> HE IS, ACTUALLY. HE HAS DESIGNED MANY OPERAS AND BALLETS AS A DESIGNER. "CUNNING LITTLE VIXEN", "HANSEL AND GRETAL", "MAGIC FLUTE", A LOT OF YANACHEK AND MOZART AND CLASSIC BALLETS AND OPERAS, SO IT IS SOMETHING HE'S LOVED TO DO IN HIS CAREER.

VAL>> I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT.

JESS>> TO GO BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF THE HOLOCAUST, THOUGH, PILOBOLUS IS KNOWN FOR GREAT WIT AND IT STILL SEEMS AN UNLIKELY SUBJECT.

MIRRA BANK>> WELL, THEY'RE GUTSY AND THEY'RE REALLY VERY OPEN PEOPLE AS ARTISTS. THEY REALLY WANTED TO WORK WITH MAURICE. PART OF THE REASON THEY GOT TOGETHER IS THEY'RE BOTH BASED IN CONNECTICUT NOT FAR FROM EACH OTHER. THEY'RE NEIGHBORS, IF YOU WILL, SO THEY SORT OF LOOKED AT EACH OTHER'S WORK, SEEN EACH OTHER'S WORK, AND THEY WERE LOOKING FOR A CHANCE TO DO THIS. WHEN MAURICE DECIDED HE REALLY WANTED TO DO SOMETHING WITH THE CHILDREN'S OPERA, "BRUNDIBAR", THAT WAS PERFORMED IN A CONCENTRATION CAMP, AND THEY DECIDED IT WAS THE MOMENT TO WORK WITH HIM, THEY HAD A REASON TO WORK TOGETHER.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT A CLIP FROM "LAST DANCE" AND THE CREATIVE PROCESS. LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

>> "AND THEN YOU DO WHAT THEY DID FINALLY AT THE CONCENTRATION CAMP. YOU SELECT.

>> BUT I LIKE --

>> WAIT, STOP, STOP!

>> COME ON!

>> HE DOES THE SELECTION. YOU GO THAT WAY AND YOU GO THAT WAY. HE KNOWS WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE. HE KNOWS WHAT THEIR WORTH IS. YOU THREE ARE THE WORK SQUAD. YOU ARE THE GAS CHAMBER.

>> WE STILL HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> NO, NO, NO! AND HOWEVER YOU WANT TO CHOREOGRAPH IT, MAKE THE SELECTION. THREE GO THAT WAY, TWO GO THAT WAY.

>> IT'S A LITTLE MUCH. EERIE AND STRANGE.

>> IT WILL BE NAZIS SENDING JEWS TO BE COOKED. THAT'S A GOOD TITLE TOO."

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) THESE MEN ARE INTENSE.

MIRRA BANK>> THEY'RE INTENSE, THEY'RE IRREVERENT.

VAL>> WHAT CAME OUT OF THIS IN THE END? BECAUSE YOU HAVE ALL THIS WRANGLING.

MIRRA BANK>> WELL, IT'S A VERY POWERFUL DANCE THEATER WORK. I THINK WHAT CAME OUT OF IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS CHARACTER-DRIVEN AND STORY-DRIVEN WHICH IS UNUSUAL IN THE OVERVIEW FOR PILOBOLUS. BUT ALSO, I THINK MAURICE REALLY LEARNED HOW TO WORK WITH DANCERS. PART OF THE WHAT YOU SEE IN THE FILM IS THE PROCESS OF HIS TAKING HIS IDEAS FROM WHAT THE DANCERS COULD ACTUALLY DO AND IT'S A WORK OF TREMENDOUS BEAUTY AND VERY POWERFUL, VERY STUNNING, SOMETIMES DISTURBING. IT EVEN HAS A LOT OF HUMOR IN IT. YOU CAN SEE THESE ARE VERY IRREVERENT PEOPLE AND WHAT COMES OUT OF IT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK SPEAKS TO ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED IN OR KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST OR ANY SITUATION IN WHICH PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WHERE THERE'S RISK AND LOSS AND SEPARATION.

VAL>> WERE THEY WILLING TO HAVE YOU REVEAL THEIR FIGHTING?

MIRRA BANK>> OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) BUT SOMETIMES THEY TRUST YOU TO SORT OF EDIT THAT PART OUT. THEY DON'T MIND SHOWING THAT ASPECT OF IT?

MIRRA BANK>> ONE OF THE THINGS I GOT FROM THIS, FOR ME AS A FILMMAKER, WAS A TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR THEM AS ARTISTS. THEY WERE COURAGEOUS, THEY WERE WITHOUT VANITY, THEY WORK INCREDIBLY HARD AND THEY NEVER TRIED TO PREVENT THINGS FROM HAPPENING WHEN THERE WAS TROUBLE.

JESS>> PILOBOLUS IS CURRENTLY TOURING LOS ANGELES AND ORANGE COUNTY TOO. IS THIS GOING TO BE PART OF THEIR REPERTOIRE THROUGHOUT THE TOUR?

MIRRA BANK>> THIS PARTICULAR DANCE IS NOT CURRENTLY IN THEIR REPERTOIRE, BUT IT WILL COME BACK IN. THEY'RE ACTUALLY PERFORMING IN LOS ANGELES RIGHT NOW. THEY'RE HERE THROUGH THE WEEKEND AND THIS FILM IS PART OF DANCE CAMERA WEST FESTIVAL AND IS RUNNING AT THE EGYPTIAN THEATRE FROM NOW UNTIL MAY 11, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF INTERCONNECTIONS AT THE MOMENT BECAUSE THE DANCE COMPANY, THE DANCE CAMERA WEST FESTIVAL IN THE EGYPTIAN THEATRE PREMIER --

VAL>> -- WE SHOULD SAY, LAST WEEKEND BECAUSE BY THE TIME THIS AIRS, THEY WILL HAVE BEEN GONE. IN THE END, IS ALL CREATIVITY CONFLICT-RIDDEN? OR CAN IT BE A HARMONIOUS EVENT?

MIRRA BANK>> I THINK THE BEST WORK IS WORK THAT HAS COME OUT OF SOME KIND OF TURMOIL AND OFTEN CONFLICT, AND I THINK TO BE UNAFRAID OF THAT IS THE MARK OF A REAL ARTIST.

JESS>> MIRRA BANKS, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US. YOU CAN SEE MIRRA BANKS' "LAST DANCE" AT THE EGYPTIAN THEATRE THROUGH MAY 11. CALL THE NUMBER OR GO TO THE WEBSITE ON YOUR SCREEN FOR MORE INFORMATION.

[323-466-FILM]
[WWW.EGYPTIANTHEATRE.COM]

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JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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