5/16/03

LC030516

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> WHEN A YOUNGSTER IS TOO OLD TO BE A FOSTER CHILD, A LOOK AT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE EIGHTEEN WITH NO PARENTS, NO FAMILY AND NO PLACE TO GO.

NICOLE>> I LIVED ON MY OWN BEFORE, BEFORE I WENT TO JAIL, BUT I WAS STILL DOING DRUGS WHILE I WAS LIVING ON MY OWN, BUT I DID LIVE ON MY OWN, YOU KNOW. THEY JUST SAID THAT LIKE IT WAS TIME FOR ME TO LEARN TO LIVE ON MY OWN, PAYING MY RENT AND HAVING A JOB, GOING TO SCHOOL, BEING RESPONSIBLE, YOU KNOW.

VAL>> AND THEN WE'LL TALK WITH ONE OF THE ORIGINAL KINGS OF COMEDY AND A REALLY GREAT STRAIGHT MAN AS WELL, CARL REINER.

JESS>> PLUS, THE WOMAN WHO WOULDN'T TALK ABOUT BILL CLINTON TALKS WITH US. WE'LL MEET SUSAN MCDOUGAL.

VAL>> IT'S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> TURNING EIGHTEEN. IT CAN BE A REAL SHOCK.

JESS>> ESPECIALLY FOR FOSTER KIDS. IN THE EYES OF THE LAW, THAT'S WHEN THEY BECOME ADULTS. IT'S CALLED AGING OUT AND, ONCE THEY REACH THAT POINT, THE SYSTEM NO LONGER OFFERS MUCH SUPPORT. THAT'S WHY SO MANY EX-FOSTER CHILDREN DON'T MAKE IT ON THEIR OWN. BUT TONIGHT PHILIP BRUCE TELLS US ABOUT A PLACE IN WHITTIER THAT'S GIVING SOME YOUNG PEOPLE A SECOND CHANCE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HER NAME IS VERONICA AND HER STORY SINCE SHE LEFT FOSTER CARE A DECADE AGO IS ALL TOO TYPICAL. SHE'S NOW TWENTY-EIGHT YEARS OLD AND WORKS TWO MINIMUM-WAGE JOBS. BUT EVEN WITH THAT, VERONICA STILL CAN'T AFFORD A HOUSE OR APARTMENT FOR HERSELF AND HER TWO CHILDREN. AND TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE, SHE'S HAD SERIOUS DRUG PROBLEMS.

VERONICA>> I DON'T HAVE NO ONE TO LEAN ON. I GOT TO DO THINGS ON MY OWN. YES, I KNOW I TOOK THE WRONG PATH, BUT I DON'T HAVE FAMILY. I MEAN, PEOPLE THAT HAVE FAMILY ARE SPECIAL. THEY SHOULD APPRECIATE THEIR FAMILY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT VERONICA'S LUCK MAY BE CHANGING. SHE'S CONNECTED NOW WITH A WOMAN WHO IS DEDICATED TO PROVIDING A HOME TO GIRLS WHO'VE AGED OUT OF FOSTER CARE, PROVIDING THE KIND OF HOME THAT SHE SAYS EVERY EIGHTEEN YEAR OLD DESERVES.

CAROL REZA>> FOR US, THEY NEED TO STAY AS LONG AS THEY NEED TO STAY. IF THEY WANT TO GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AND STAY HERE, FINE. IF THEY WANT TO GET MARRIED HERE, IF THEY WANT TO COME BACK EVERY HOLIDAY, ONCE THEY LEAVE, THEY CAN ALWAYS COME BACK. IF THEY LOSE THEIR JOB, IF THEY HAVE TO HAVE SURGERY, WE WANT THIS TO BE HOME FOR THEM.

PHILIP BRUCE>> CAROL REZA IS A WHITTIER REAL ESTATE AGENT, PASTOR AND VOLUNTEER. SHE CREATED A PROGRAM CALLED BRIDGE OF FAITH. ITS FIRST PROJECT WAS HELPING PRISONERS. THEN SHE AND SOME FELLOW VOLUNTEERS RAISED THE MONEY TO BUY AND RESTORE THIS TWENTY-TWO ROOM PROPERTY AS A HOME FOR YOUNG WOMEN WHO'VE BEEN IN FOSTER CARE. THE FIRST TWO GIRLS HAVE MOVED IN.

NICOLE>> I THINK IT'S BETTER THAN BEING IN JAIL. IT'S A GOOD OPPORTUNITY, YOU KNOW, TO LIKE GO TO A REGULAR SCHOOL, HAVE MY JOB, LIKE LEARN HOW TO PAY MY BILLS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NICOLE JUST TURNED EIGHTEEN AND HAS HER OWN ROOM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HER LIFE. FIVE YEARS AGO, SHE TOOK TO THE STREETS OF LONG BEACH AND LIVED ON HER OWN. THAT'S WHEN SHE WAS ARRESTED FOR BURGLARY AND SENT TO JUVENILE HALL.

NICOLE>> I GUESS IT DID KIND OF HELP ME BECAUSE I GOT TO STAY CLEAN FOR THREE MONTHS, YOU KNOW, AND I GOT TO LIKE GET MY HEAD STRAIGHT BECAUSE I WASN'T ON DRUGS ANYMORE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NICOLE WISHES SHE WERE BACK WITH HER FAMILY, BUT SHE KNOWS THIS PLACE MAY BE HER BEST CHANCE FOR A GOOD LIFE. LIVING ON THE STREETS, SHE NEVER WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL. NOW REZA HAS HELPED HER ENROLL IN ADULT SCHOOL. NICOLE SAYS SHE MIGHT HAVE GONE THERE ON HER OWN, BUT PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE STUCK WITH IT.

NICOLE>> AFTER A WHILE, I THINK I WOULD HAVE STOPPED DOING THAT BECAUSE I WOULD HAVE WANTED TO HANG WITH MY FRIENDS OR SOMETHING. BUT HERE, CAROL KEEPS ME FOCUSED ON LIKE WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. YOU KNOW, LIKE KEEP GOING TO SCHOOL, KEEP LIKE WORKING.

CAROL REZA>> WE WANT TO INTERACT WITH YOU. WE WANT TO NURTURE YOU, AND IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE NURTURED, IT'S NOT A GOOD THING TO BE HERE BECAUSE THE LOVE OF PEOPLE IS EVIDENT WHEN YOU WALK THROUGH THIS PLACE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SCORES OF VOLUNTEERS HAVE HELPED GET THE HOUSE READY. IT WAS AN ENORMOUS JOB WITH TONS OF TRASH TO REMOVE AND EVERY SINK AND TOILET CLOGGED.

GAYROLD HUTTON>> THE MONTH BEFORE LAST, I WORKED 163 HOURS. I'M SURE IT WAS MORE LAST MONTH, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FIGURES ARE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> VOLUNTEER GAYROLD HUTTON IS A RETIRED YOUTH AUTHORITY PAROLE AGENT.

GAYROLD HUTTON>> THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL GIVE THE GIRLS A CHANCE TO GET THEIR LIVES TOGETHER AND DO SOMETHING WITH THEMSELVES IF THEY WILL. YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM DO IT, BUT IF THEY'RE INTERESTED IN DOING SOMETHING WITH THEMSELVES, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY LIKE THEY'VE PROBABLY NEVER HAD BEFORE AND WILL NEVER HAVE AGAIN.

PHILIP BRUCE>> CAROL REZA SAYS SHE KNEW SHE HAD TO HELP GIRLS LEAVING THE FOSTER CARE SYSTEM BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE LEARNED OVER THE YEARS HELPING PRISONERS. MANY OF THEM HAD ALSO BEEN IN FOSTER CARE AND THEY HAD BAD EXPERIENCES WHEN THEY WENT OUT ON THEIR OWN.

CAROL REZA>> BEING THAT A LOT OF THE WOMEN IN PRISON, THEIR PARENTS WERE IN PRISON AND THEY WERE IN FOSTER CARE, SEEING THAT SAME CYCLE CONTINUE IN THEIR LIVES, I THOUGHT SOMETHING JUST HAS TO HAPPEN. THERE NEEDS TO BE A TOURNIQUET HERE. OUR GOAL IS TO STOP THE HIGH RATE OF RECIDIVISM. WHAT BETTER PLACE TO STOP IT IS THEN WITH THE NEXT GENERATION, THAT THEY WOULDN'T REPEAT THE CYCLE?

PHILIP BRUCE>> REZA SAYS THAT MANY KIDS THINK EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE WHEN THEY LEAVE FOSTER CARE. THEY'RE ACTUALLY EAGER TO BE OUT ON THEIR OWN, BUT THEN REALITY HITS.

CAROL REZA>> WELL, WE HAVE TO WALK THEM THROUGH EVERYTHING. IT'S JUST LIKE BEING PUSHED OUT OF THE NEST FOR THEM. THEY DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GO, THEY DON'T KNOW TRANSPORTATION, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NEGOTIATE THINGS THAT THEY NEED.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NICOLE HAS A JOB AT THE THRIFT STORE RUN BY BRIDGE OF FAITH AND CAROL SEES A LOT OF HER THERE, BUT NICOLE HAS MIXED FEELINGS WHEN CAROL OFFERS UNSOLICITED ADVICE ON HOW TO SUCCEED IN LIFE.

NICOLE>> IT IS ANNOYING, BUT IT HELPS ME OUT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT BACK IN JAIL AND WE STILL GET ALONG, BUT IT'S HARD FOR ANYBODY TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

CAROL REZA>> I UNDERSTAND IT. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT -- IF I LET EVERYTHING THEY SAY -- YOU KNOW, IF I TOOK IT ALL PERSONAL, I'D BE CRYING EVERY DAY (LAUGHTER).

PHILIP BRUCE>> CAROL REZA SAYS SHE'S HOPING AND EXPECTING THAT NICOLE AND ALL THE OTHER GIRLS WILL BE SUCCESSFUL.

CAROL REZA>> I EXPECT THEM TO EMBRACE THEIR FUTURE AND THE POSSIBILITY OF WHO THEY CAN BE. I'M A PASTOR. I KNOW THE REALITY FOR MYSELF AND WE DON'T EXPECT ANYONE TO BE "CONVERTED". WE ARE NOT TEACHING A THEOLOGY HERE, BUT WE'RE TEACHING LIFE 101 AND THE TRUTH OF LIFE.

JESS>> THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE HOME YOU JUST SAW TELL US THEY'RE HOPING TO BRANCH OUT. THEIR GOAL IS TO OPEN ANOTHER SHELTER, BUT THIS ONE WILL BE FOR EX-FOSTER KIDS WHO HAVE CHILDREN OF THEIR OWN. THE FACILITY IN WHITTIER ISN'T DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE YOUNG PARENTS.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, TROUBLE HAS BROKEN OUT ON SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S BEACHES. IT DOESN'T EXACTLY SQUARE WITH THE IMAGE OF LAID-BACK SURFER DUDES.

>> YEAH, I'VE HAD ROCKS THROWN AT ME AND WE'VE HAD DOCUMENTED INCIDENTS OF FISTFIGHTS DOWN IN THE WATER AND AT THE BOTTOMS OF THE CLIFFS.

JESS>> WHO DOESN'T REMEMBER THE WHITEWATER SCANDAL? OUR NEXT GUEST CERTAINLY WILL NEVER FORGET IT. WHEN PROSECUTOR KENNETH STARR WAS IN HOT PURSUIT OF PRESIDENT CLINTON, SHE REFUSED TO TESTIFY AND, AS A RESULT, SUSAN MCDOUGAL SPENT NEARLY TWO YEARS BEHIND BARS. HER NOTORIETY AS A WHITEWATER FELON WAS QUITE A LEAP FROM HER ROOTS AS A SMALL-TOWN GIRL BACK IN ARKANSAS.

VAL>> SO WHY DID SHE REFUSE TO COOPERATE WITH THE INVESTIGATION? AND DID SUSAN MCDOUGAL KNOW SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HAVE INCRIMINATED PRESIDENT CLINTON? SHE TELLS HER STORY IN A NEW BOOK CALLED "THE WOMAN WHO WOULDN'T TALK: WHY I REFUSED TO TESTIFY AGAINST THE CLINTONS AND WHAT I LEARNED IN JAIL". SUSAN MCDOUGAL IS CERTAINLY TALKING NOW AND JOINS US.

JESS>> FROM WHAT WE READ IN YOUR BOOK, HAD YOU TESTIFIED, YOU WOULD HAVE SAID I KNOW NOTHING.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YOU KNOW, I OFTEN SAY ON THE BOOK TOUR THAT I'VE BEEN ON THAT THE BOOK SHOULD BE CALLED "THE WOMAN WHO WAS NEVER ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION". BY THE TIME THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL'S OFFICE INTERVIEWED ME, THEY HAD ALREADY MADE UP A STORY. THEY ALREADY HAD A STORY IN MIND. THEY TOLD ME THE STORY. THEY WANTED ME TO BACK IT UP AND IT WAS AN ABSOLUTE LIE. IT JUST WASN'T TRUE. SO FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, WE WERE LOCKED IN THIS BATTLE OF YOU WILL SAY THAT THIS STORY IS TRUE, AND I KEPT TELLING THEM IT WASN'T. SO FROM THE BEGINNING, I WANTED TO ANSWER THEIR QUESTIONS. THERE JUST NEVER WERE ANY.

VAL>> BUT WHAT IF YOU HAD GONE FORWARD AND SAID ALL RIGHT, I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AND SIMPLY TOLD THE TRUTH AND CONTRADICTED THEIR STORY? WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YOU KNOW, FROM THE VERY FIRST MEETING I HAD WITH THEM, THEY NEVER ASKED ME A SINGLE QUESTION. THEY HAD A STORY IN MIND THAT THEY THOUGHT WOULD INCRIMINATE BILL AND HILARY CLINTON.

VAL>> SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH PERJURY IF YOU HAD TESTIFIED TO WHAT YOU KNEW TO BE THE TRUTH?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> I'M SAYING THAT, BY THE TIME I GOT SUBPOENAED TO THE GRAND JURY, THEY HAD PUSHED ME SO FAR TO BACK UP THIS LIE THAT I REFUSED TO EVEN SPEAK TO THEM. IT'S REALLY MORE ABOUT STUBBORNNESS THAN IT WAS ANYTHING ELSE (LAUGHTER). THEY HAD JUST PUSHED ME TO LIE OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR MONTHS, YOU KNOW, TO BACK UP THIS STORY AND I KEPT TELLING THEM, LOOK, THIS IS A LIE. THIS IS NOT THE TRUTH.

WHAT REALLY BACKS THAT UP IS THE FINAL REPORT. AFTER $70 MILLION DOLLARS, THEY EVEN SAY THAT THERE WAS NO WRONGDOING. I KEPT TELLING THEM THAT AND THEY KEPT THREATENING ME THAT WE'RE GOING TO PUT YOU IN JAIL, WE'RE GOING TO PROSECUTE YOU IF YOU DON'T TELL US THIS IS TRUE, AND IT WASN'T TRUE. SO BY THE TIME THEY SUBPOENAED ME TO THE GRAND JURY, I WAS PRETTY LIVID. I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO WORK, SO I WAS ANGRY BY THAT TIME.

JESS>> THERE IS STUBBORNNESS AND THEN THERE IS STUBBORNNESS. I MEAN, YOU SURELY DURING THOSE MANY MONTHS IN VARIOUS JAILS, HAD SECOND THOUGHTS, THINKING, YOU KNOW, I COULD GET OUT OF THIS.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YOU KNOW, THE HARDEST TIME I HAD WAS HERE IN LOS ANGELES AT THE TWIN TOWERS. WHEN I GOT OUT, THERE WERE --

JESS>> -- THAT'S A NEW FACILITY, OR IT WAS THEN.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YES, IT WAS BRAND NEW. I WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PRISONERS AT THE FACILITY HERE.

JESS>> REALLY CUSHY, HUH?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> THE ONLY NIGHTMARES I HAD WHEN I GOT OUT WAS ABOUT WAKING UP AND THINKING, YOU KNOW, MY GOD, AM I STILL IN THE TWIN TOWERS FACILITY? I WAS IN A GLASS CELL TWENTY-THREE HOURS A DAY. I WAS LET OUT FOR ONE HOUR TO SHOWER AND USE THE PHONE AND, IN THAT TIME, YOU COULDN'T HEAR A THING. IT WAS TOTAL ISOLATION IN THAT PLACE.

VAL>> SO IT WAS PLEXI-GLASS SO THEY COULD WATCH YOU, BUT YOU COULD HAVE NO CONTACT WITH ANY OTHER PERSON?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> THAT'S RIGHT, AND IT WAS THE HARDEST THING I'VE EVER DONE. I REALLY WONDERED IF I WOULD MAKE IT BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAD REALLY GOTTEN ME THROUGH -- SOME OF THE GREAT STORIES IN THE BOOK ARE ABOUT THE WOMEN THAT I MET IN JAIL. I HESITATE TO CALL THEM WOMEN BECAUSE THEY'RE SO VERY YOUNG. THEY LOOK LIKE THOSE GIRLS IN THAT PIECE THAT YOU HAD ON RIGHT BEFORE I CAME ON. SUCH YOUNG FACES AND SUCH TRAGIC LIVES. REALLY, THEIR STORIES KIND OF MADE ME STRONG BECAUSE I THOUGHT, IF THEY CAN GET THROUGH WHAT THEY'VE LIVED THROUGH, YOU KNOW, SURELY I CAN GET THROUGH ANY OF THIS. BUT WHEN THEY PUT ME IN THE ISOLATION OUT HERE IN THAT GLASS CELL, I REALLY HAD MOMENTS WHERE I DOUBTED I WOULD MAKE IT.

JESS>> YOU WERE IN CIVIL BRAND AND THAT'S WHERE YOU MET THESE YOUNG WOMEN WHO GAVE YOU SUCH SUPPORT?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> I HAD BEEN IN THREE PREVIOUS JAILS. YOU KNOW, I WAS MOVED AROUND QUITE A BIT DURING THE TIME. BEING MOVED AS A PRISONER IS ONE OF THE MOST HORRIFIC THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU.

VAL>> NOW WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU WERE MOVED A LOT AND IT WAS VERY --

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> -- ONE OF THE HARD THINGS IS THAT YOU'RE SHACKLED, YOU KNOW, AT YOUR WAIST. YOUR HANDS ARE TIED DOWN SO YOU CAN'T DRINK OR EAT FOR HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES YOU, HOURS, TO BE MOVED. YOU CAN'T GO TO THE BATHROOM. THEY WON'T EVEN RELEASE ONE HAND FROM YOUR WAIST TO GO TO THE BATHROOM. SO IT'S HUMILIATING, ESPECIALLY FOR A WOMAN. YOU CAN IMAGINE THE THINGS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU COULDN'T HAVE ONE HAND RELEASED. THEN FOR WEEKS, YOU KNOW, YOUR FAMILY DOESN'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE. YOU HAVE NO COMMUNICATION, SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE GOING INTO A DANGEROUS SITUATION OR WHERE YOU'RE GOING.

VAL>> AND THEN YOU HAVE TO ADJUST, I IMAGINE, TO A WHOLE NEW SETTING AND SOCIAL STRUCTURE AND ALL THE POLITICS WITHIN A --

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> -- IT TAKES FOREVER TO GET A COMB OR TOOTHPASTE. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY'LL TAKE YOU AND THEY'LL STRIP YOU OF EVERY SINGE ARTICLE OF CLOTHING YOU HAVE ON AND THEY'LL SAY, SORRY, WE HAVE NO PANTIES, WE HAVE NO UNDERWEAR. YOU'LL JUST BE WITH NOTHING BUT THIS DINGY SORT OF, YOU KNOW, ORANGE UNIFORM. BEING MOVED IS THE MOST TRAUMATIC THING THAT CAN HAPPEN AND BEING MOVED SEVEN TIMES IN THE TWO YEARS WAS BY FAR THE, I WOULD SAY, NOT THE HARDEST. THE HARDEST WAS GOING TO COURT IN LOS ANGELES. THAT WAS THE HARDEST.

VAL>> GOING TO COURT? WHAT WAS --

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> -- WOMEN ARE LOCKED IN THE BUS IN A CERTAIN PLACE WITH THE MEN PRISONERS WHEN THEY GO TO COURT AND THE MEN DO HORRIFIC THINGS. THEY, YOU KNOW, EXPOSE THEMSELVES, THEY SPIT ON YOU, THEY CALL YOU NAMES. ON THE BUS, THEY WALK PAST WHERE THE WOMEN ARE LOCKED IN THIS CELL, IN THIS CAGE WITHIN THE BUS, AND I REMEMBER COMING BACK FROM COURT AND JUST THINKING, YOU KNOW, I'D RATHER ALMOST PLEAD GUILTY TO ANYTHING THAN HAVE TO HAVE MY DAY IN COURT. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WOMEN WHO ARE ACCUSED AND HAVING TO GO THROUGH THAT, NOT MONTHS BUT SOME OF THEM YEARS, TIME AFTER TIME OF THE INSULTS AND THE SEXUAL DEGRADATION AND THE HORRIFIC TIME YOU GET WHEN YOU COME BACK OF BEING STRIP-SEARCHED AND REALLY PUSHED BY THE DEPUTIES, YOU WONDER.

JESS>> AND, IN FACT, YOUR BOOK IS MORE ABOUT PRISON CONDITIONS AND JAIL CONDITIONS AND THE TREATMENT PARTICULARLY OF WOMEN IN JAILS AND PRISONS THAN IT IS ABOUT WHITEWATER ITSELF.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> IT IS.

JESS>> BUT LET ME ASK ABOUT WHITEWATER. WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM THE CLINTONS?

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YOU KNOW, I HADN'T HEARD FROM THEM FOREVER. I THINK SINCE 1985. THAT'S ONE OF THE FUNNY THINGS THAT, IN 1996 WHEN ALL OF THIS HAPPENED, I'D BEEN SEPARATED FROM MY HUSBAND, JIM, WHO WAS THEIR FRIEND, NOT SO MUCH MYSELF, SINCE 1985. SO THE THOUGHT OF ME GOING INTO THIS MEETING WITH THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL GOING, GOSH, YOU KNOW, I'D BETTER HIDE SOMETHING FROM MY FRIENDS, THE CLINTONS, IT WAS SO RIDICULOUS. YOU KNOW, IT WAS LUDICROUS. SO EVEN AFTER I GOT OUT OF JAIL, I HADN'T HEARD FROM THEM. PROBABLY A MONTH AGO, MY PHONE RANG AT MY HOME AND IT WAS BILL CLINTON. HE SAID HE HAD READ THE BOOK AND HE SAID THAT IT HAD REALLY TOUCHED HIM AND HE KEPT SAYING, YOU KNOW, MY GOD, I JUST DIDN'T KNOW, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT THE JAIL AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE JAILS.

JESS>> YOU WROTE THAT HE HAD NEVER SAID THANK YOU, BUT HE DID PARDON YOU.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> NO, NO. PEOPLE ALWAYS ASK. HE CALLED AND SAID THANK YOU, YOU KNOW, AND MY ANSWER TO THAT IS WHY SHOULD SOMEONE THANK YOU FOR NOT LYING ABOUT THEM? YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S KIND OF STRANGE.

VAL>> WELL, BECAUSE THE PRESSURE ON YOU WAS SO GREAT TOO.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> WELL, THOUGH, TO DO THE RIGHT THING, I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO BE THANKED. I WOULD HOPE NO ONE WOULD LIE ABOUT ME. BUT TO CALL AND SAY HE'S READ THE BOOK AND IT MEANT SOMETHING TO HIM AND TO GET THE PARDON, WHICH WAS HUGE, BECAUSE REALLY THAT WAS HIS -- HIS WHOLE PRESIDENCY, YOU KNOW, WILL BE REVIEWED AND LOOKED BACK ON AND IT WILL REFLECT ON HIM, BUT IT WAS A GREAT GIFT TO ME, AN UNASKED FOR GIFT, BUT IT WAS JUST GIVEN --

JESS>> -- ON HIS LAST DAY IN OFFICE.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> YES.

VAL>> WELL, SUSAN MCDOUGAL, IT WAS FASCINATING TO TALK WITH YOU. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU HAVE THE ATTITUDE YOU DO. CONGRATULATIONS FOR GETTING THROUGH IT.

SUSAN MCDOUGAL>> THANK YOU. THAT'S AWFULLY KIND.

VAL>> AND AGAIN, THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE WOMAN WHO WOULDN'T TALK: WHY I REFUSED TO TESTIFY AGAINST THE CLINTONS AND WHAT I LEARNED IN JAIL".

TO SEND A COMMENT OR A QUESTION TO OUR PROGRAM, YOU CAN REACH US BY MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS:

LIFE AND TIMES
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90027

YOU CAN ALSO CALL OUR VIEWER COMMENT LINE (323) 953-5555) OR CONTACT US THE FAST WAY BY E-MAIL AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> IF YOU'VE BEEN ANYWHERE NEAR A TELEVISION OVER THE PAST FIFTY YEARS OR SO, YOU'VE DEFINITELY WITNESSED SOME OF CARL REINER'S GREAT WORK. FROM HIS DAYS WITH SID CAESAR TO HIS CREATION OF "THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW", HE'S EARNED HIS SPOT IN TELEVISION'S HALL OF FAME.

VAL>> WE'RE ABOUT TO SEE ONE OF THOSE LEGENDARY MOMENTS FROM CARL REINER'S LONG CAREER. IT'S A SKIT FROM "YOUR SHOW OF SHOWS" AND REINER SHOWS HIS SKILL AS A STRAIGHT MAN OPPOSITE THE GREAT SID CAESAR IN A SPOOF OF "THIS IS YOUR LIFE".

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, CARL REINER OFFERS UP SOME MORE LAUGHS IN HIS NEW AUTOBIOGRAPHY, "MY ANECDOTAL LIFE", AND WE ARE VERY PLEASED TO HAVE HIM WITH US TONIGHT. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

CARL REINER>> THANK YOU. YOU KNOW, YOU THREW UP THE PICTURE OF WHAT I USED TO LOOK LIKE. HERE'S WHAT I REALLY LOOK LIKE (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> YOU HAVEN'T CHANGED A BIT (LAUGHTER). IT'S A DELIGHT HAVING YOU WITH US HERE. "THIS IS YOUR LIFE", YOU ACTUALLY ENDURED THAT YOURSELF ONCE, DIDN'T YOU?

CARL REINER>> YES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THERE IS A CHAPTER IN HERE CALLED "THIS IS YOUR LIE". THE LIE IS -- I'VE KEPT IT UNTIL I WROTE ABOUT IT. ON "THE SHOW OF SHOWS", WE DID THAT SPOOF. WHEN I WAS ON "THE DINAH SHORE SHOW", I WAS WRITING AND ACTING ON IT. EVERY OTHER WEEK I WAS CALLED IN CREDITS THE "NOT SO SPECIAL GUEST STAR, CARL REINER". IT WAS YVES MONTAND, THE SPECIAL GUEST STAR, AND THE NOT SO SPECIAL. SO ONE WEEK, I WAS THERE ANYWAY, SO SHE SAID NEXT WEEK WE'RE GOING TO -- CARL REINER IS GOING TO BE OUR NOT SO SPECIAL GUEST STAR. WOULD YOU TAKE A BOW? I GOT UP AND TOOK A BOW AND I SAID IS THIS IT? SHE SAID YES. I SAID YOU BROUGHT ME IN AND PUT MY TOUPEE ON JUST FOR A BOW? SHE SAID WHAT DID YOU THINK? OH, I DON'T KNOW. I THOUGHT MAYBE RALPH EDWARDS IS GOING TO DO "THIS IS MY LIFE". SHE SAID, NO, CARL. I SAT DOWN ANGRY.

FOR SOME REASON, THEY SAW THAT AND DECIDED TO DO IT. THEY CALLED MY WIFE AND SAID -- SHE CALLED ME ACTUALLY -- SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY -- YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL, THE WIVES OR HUSBANDS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL -- SHE SAID THEY WANT TO DO "THIS IS YOUR LIFE". I SAID I CAN'T DO THIS. YOU SAID NO? SHE SAID, OF COURSE, I SAID NO. I SAID WE'RE COMEDIANS. WE MAKE FUN OF THAT. WE DON'T DO IT. SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID THEY'D FLY YOUR BROTHER AND ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS THAT YOU HAVEN'T SEEN FOR YEARS. THEY'LL STAY FREE AT THE ROOSEVELT HOTEL. I SAID, WELL, AND I LIED. I DIDN'T TELL DINAH. I DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY THAT I WAS -- THEY CAUGHT ME THAT FOLLOWING WEEK AND THEY REALLY CAUGHT ME. I REALLY WAS SURPRISED BECAUSE IT USUALLY TAKES THREE, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS. BUT THERE I WAS HUGGING DINAH AT THE END AND SHE'S ADLIBBING. I SAID, DINAH, DON'T ADLIB. THERE'S FUNNY LINES. AND THEY CAUGHT ME. ANYWAY, I DIDN'T MEAN TO TELL YOU THAT STORY, BUT YOU PLAYED THAT (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) NOW YOU WENT FROM "YOUR SHOW OF SHOWS" AND, OF COURSE, I GREW UP ON DICK VAN DYKE.

CARL REINER>> YOU GREW UP BEAUTIFULLY TOO. IT DIDN'T HURT YOU ONE BIT.

VAL>> THANK YOU. NOT AT ALL. QUITE THE CONTRARY. I'M SURE IT CONTRIBUTED TO MY WHOLESOME SUCCESS (LAUGHTER). BUT THERE'S A SCENE IN THERE THAT WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT'S JUST CLASSIC. IT'S THE CLASSIC TOUPEE SCENE.

CARL REINER>> OH, YES. PERSKY AND DANOFF WROTE THIS EPISODE AND I THANK THEM TO THIS DAY FOR IT.

VAL>> LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) HOW MUCH OF THAT WAS ADLIB AND HOW MUCH OF IT WAS --

CARL REINER>> -- OH, THAT WAS A WELL-WRITTEN SCRIPT BY SAM DANOFF AND BILL PERSKY. IT WAS A WELL-WRITTEN SCRIPT. THERE WERE A LITTLE ADLIBS HERE AND THERE, BUT MAYBE IT WAS THEM. YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT ALAN BRADY WAS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT GETTING CAUGHT WITH HIS HAIR OFF AND I NEVER WORE MY HAIR EXCEPT FOR "THE SHOW OF SHOWS" AND ONCE A WEEK BEFORE I WENT ON THE AIR. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I DID A SHOW CALLED "CELEBRITY GAME" WHERE I WAS THE HOST OF THE THING THAT BECAME "HOLLYWOOD SQUARES". I DIDN'T WANT TO WEAR MY HAIR ON THAT. I CAME ON WITHOUT MY HAIR AND I LEFT IT UP TO THE AUDIENCE. DURING COMMERCIAL, I SAID I'LL PUT MY HAIR ON, YOU VOTE AND SEE IF YOU LIKE ME. THEY VOTED FOR ME TO WEAR HAIR AND I WORE IT.

VAL>> THAT'S GREAT.

JESS>> YOU'VE HAD A REMARKABLE LIFE AND YOURS IS A REMARKABLE FAMILY. SON ROB IS DOING VERY WELL.

CARL REINER>> MY SON ROB IS ONE OF THE GREAT MEN IN OUR SOCIETY RIGHT NOW. HIS DISCOVERING AND GETTING THAT FUNDED, THE "I AM YOUR CHILD" FOUNDATION SO THAT KIDS IN THIS STATE, BECAUSE OF THE TAX ON CIGARETTES, THEY'VE GOTTEN HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

JESS>> YOU REALLY ARE A PROUD FATHER THEN?

CARL REINER>> WELL, I'VE GOT THREE KIDS TO BE PROUD OF. I HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO DOES EVERYTHING WITH A "P". SHE'S A PSYCHOANALYST, A PAINTER, A POET AND A PLAYWRIGHT. I HAVE A SON, LUCAS, WHO IS A PAINTER AND WE'VE GOT FIVE GRANDCHILDREN. I'M VERY, VERY LUCKY TO HAVE NONTOXIC CHILDREN. THEY'RE REALLY WONDERFUL PEOPLE.

JESS>> AND YOUR WIFE, ESTELLE, IS STILL ONE OF THE GREAT JAZZ SINGERS.

CARL REINER>> I KNOW. YOU SAW HER SING AT THE GARDENIA. SHE'S STILL SINGING AT THE GARDENIA. SHE'S MAKING ANOTHER ALBUM NOW, HER FIFTH ALBUM. STARTING WHEN SHE WAS SIXTY-FIVE, HAD NEVER GOTTEN UP IN A CLUB OR ANY PLACE, COULD ALWAYS SING JAZZ. SANG IN MY EAR. I KNEW SHE COULD. SHE WAS BILLY HOLIDAY, ELLA FITZGERALD, YOU KNOW, DINAH WASHINGTON INCARNATE.

VAL>> I'M ALWAYS INTERESTED BECAUSE YOU REALLY ARE ONE OF THE ARCHITECTS, YOU CAN SAY, OF SITUATION COMEDY. WHEN YOU WATCH IT TODAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK? IT'S DECLINED OR DO YOU THINK, NO, THERE REALLY ARE SOME GEMS OUT THERE, IT'S GOTTEN BETTER?

CARL REINER>> WE ALWAYS LIVE WITHIN THE TIMES WE'RE LIVING. WHAT HAPPENED IS NOW SPEEDED UP TIMES. THERE WAS A THING ON THE AIR THE OTHER DAY WHERE EVERYBODY TALKS FAST. ON "WEST WING", EVERYBODY TALKS FAST BECAUSE, DURING THE "SHOW OF SHOWS", I THINK WE HAD TWENTY-SEVEN OR TWENTY-EIGHT MINUTES TO DO EVERY HALF HOUR. THERE WOULD BE THAT MANY COMMERCIALS, SO IT WOULD BE CLOSE TO AN HOUR. IT WOULD BE FIFTY-FOUR -- NOW THE HALF-HOUR IS DOWN TO TWENTY-TWO AND I HEAR TWENTY MINUTES, SO EVERYBODY HAS TO FIND QUICK WAYS TO GET TO AN AUDIENCE. THE BEST WAY TO GET TO AN AUDIENCE QUICKLY IS, FIRST OF ALL, TALK QUICKLY, TALK ABOUT SEX, TALK ABOUT POSSIBLE SEX, AND USE A BUZZ WORD. USE A WORD THAT YOU WEREN'T ALLOWED TO USE BEFORE AND PEOPLE WILL LISTEN AND PERK UP. THEY KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE GONE IN TWENTY MINUTES, SO YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

JESS>> YOU'RE AT LEAST ATTEMPTING TO GET A REUNION OF "THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW"?

CARL REINER>> MORE THAN ATTEMPTING. I'M GOING TO GET A REUNION. I WROTE A --

JESS>> -- WILL IT BE DONE IN THAT STYLE?

CARL REINER>> IT'S GOING TO BE DONE AS WE -- I'M GOING TO KEEP MY OLD STYLE. I'VE WRITTEN ONE ALREADY ABOUT WHAT THEY WOULD BE DOING TODAY IF THE PETRIES WERE STILL ALIVE AND WELL AND THEY ARE. I MEAN, MAURIE AND DEACON AND JERRY, WE LOST THREE OF THEM, BUT THEY WILL BE THERE IN SPIRIT. ROSIE AND MARY TYLER MOORE AND DICK VAN DYKE AND LARRY MATTHEWS AND A COUPLE OF OTHER SURPRISES AS THEY ARE TODAY. I HAD MORE FUN WRITING IT AND CBS IS GOING TO DO IT.

VAL>> OH, PLEASE, PLEASE, I LOOK FORWARD TO THAT.

JESS>> OUR THANKS TO CARL REINER. THANKS VERY MUCH. THE BOOK IS "MY ANECDOTAL LIFE: A MEMOIR".

VAL>> AND AS ALWAYS, WE INVITE YOU TO CHECK OUT OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG FOR THE VERY LATEST ON UPCOMING STORIES AND TRANSCRIPTS, THOSE PAST EPISODES.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANKS FOR JOINING US AND GOOD NIGHT.

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