5/19/03

LC030519

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> TROUBLE ON THE BEACHES OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND A NEW WAY OF KEEPING AN EYE ON THE TROUBLEMAKERS.

JIM LIGHT>> YEAH, I'VE HAD ROCKS THROWN AT ME AND WE'VE HAD INCIDENTS, DOCUMENTED INCIDENTS, OF FISTFIGHTS DOWN IN THE WATER AND ON THE CLIFFS, AT THE BOTTOMS OF THE CLIFFS.

VAL>> AND THEN WE'LL GET IN TOUCH WITH BIG BIRD'S INNER PERSON AND FIND OUT WHAT MAKES HIM TICK. HERE'S A HINT. HE HAS A LOT IN COMMON WITH OSCAR THE GROUCH.

JESS>> PLUS, A COMPELLING NEW LOOK AT ONE OF THE DARKEST CHAPTERS OF CALIFORNIA'S PAST.

VAL>> IT'S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> FISTFIGHTS ON THE BEACHES OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

JESS>> IT DOESN'T EXACTLY SQUARE WITH THE IMAGE OF LAID-BACK SURFER DUDES, BUT FIGHTS ARE COMMON AT SOME LOCAL BEACHES AND VERY OFTEN THEY BEGIN WITH DISPUTES OVER SURF AND TURF. AND AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE COPS HAVE OFTEN GOTTEN CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

GAY YEE>> THE SCENIC CALM OF THE PACIFIC IS DECEIVING HERE AT PALOS VERDES PENINSULA. AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT OUTSIDERS SAY WHEN THEY COME HERE TO JOIN THE LOCAL GUYS RIDING A FEW WAVES.

JIM LIGHT>> YEAH, I'VE HAD ROCKS THROWN AT ME AND WE'VE HAD INCIDENTS, DOCUMENTED INCIDENTS, OF FISTFIGHTS DOWN IN THE WATER AND ON THE CLIFFS, AT THE BOTTOMS OF THE CLIFFS.

GAY YEE>> AND IS THIS JUST A RECENT PHENOMENON?

JIM LIGHT>> NO, NO, NO. PALOS VERDES HAS BEEN A CHRONIC PROBLEM FOR TWENTY TO THIRTY YEARS.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> EVER SINCE THE BEACH BOYS FIRST SANG THAT "EVERYBODY'S GONE SURFIN'", SOME LOCAL RIDERS HAVE TRIED TO DISCOURAGE THE "EVERYBODYS" FROM CROWDING INTO SPOTS THE LOCALS CLAIM AS THEIR OWN.

TIMM BROWNE>> I GUESS PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY, BECAUSE OF THE PLACE WHERE THEY LIVE PROVIDES THEM WITH SPECIAL ACCESS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT TO THE WATER, THEY BECOME VERY PROTECTIVE OF A PARTICULAR LOCATION.

GAY YEE>> KCOP NEWS VIDEO FROM 1995 SHOWS HOW UGLY IT CAN GET.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> THIS FIGHT INVOLVED A PALOS VERDES GROUP LOOSELY KNOWN AS THE BAY BOYS, TOUGH GUYS WHO ENFORCE THE CREED, "IF YOU DON'T LIVE HERE, DON'T SURF HERE".

TIMM BROWNE>> I'M NOT TELLING YOU IT'S NOT REAL. I THINK THAT IT DOES HAVE A REPUTATION THAT'S WELL-DESERVED IN SOME CASES, BUT THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAVE CAUSED THAT REPUTATION ARE A SMALL SELECTIVE GROUP.

GAY YEE>> SMALL MAYBE, BUT THEY'VE RAISED A BIG STINK. SEVERAL BEACH FIGHTS IN THE LAST TEN YEARS LANDED SUSPECTS IN COURT, IN THE NEWS, AND PUT PALOS VERDES ON THE MAP AS THE CAPITAL OF SURF RAGE.

TIMM BROWNE IS THE POLICE CHIEF IN PALOS VERDES ESTATES. HE GOT THE IDEA TO PUT UP A SURVEILLANCE CAMERA. A WEB SERVICE PAID FOR THE IDEA AND PUT THE LIVE PICTURES ON ITS WEBSITE, BUT IT GOT SCUTTLED RECENTLY AFTER LOCALS COMPLAINED IT WOULD ATTRACT OUTSIDERS.

TIMM BROWNE>> YEAH, THE CAMERA WILL BE LOCATED BACK UP ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF THOSE HOMES.

GAY YEE>> SO POLICE ARE PUTTING UP THEIR OWN SECURITY CAMERA, THIS TIME FOR POLICE USE ONLY. THEY'VE ALSO SENT SURFING COPS INTO THE LINEUP AT SPOTS KNOWN AS THE COVE, INDICATOR AND LUNADA BAY.

TIMM BROWNE>> WE HAVE USED UNDERCOVER DETECTIVES FROM OTHER AGENCIES, AS WELL AS OUR OWN, TO ASSIST US IN A STING OPERATION OF SORTS.

GAY YEE>> AND THE DEPARTMENT EVEN BOUGHT WHAT IT CALLS A JET SKI ON STEROIDS TO PATROL THE WATERS.

TIMM BROWNE>> SIXTY MILES AN HOUR IN THE OPEN OCEAN AND IT WILL GO IN SIX INCHES OF WATER, SO YOU CAN TAKE IT RIGHT INTO THE SHORE.

GAY YEE>> THE PALOS VERDES ESTATES POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS EVEN WORKED WITH THE NONPROFIT SURFRIDERS FOUNDATION TO COME UP WITH OTHER MEASURES.

TIMM BROWNE>> WE PROVIDE HIM WITH A WATERPROOF CAMERA THAT HE CAN TAKE OUT IN THE WATER WITH HIM.

GAY YEE>> WATERPROOF CAMERAS TO DOCUMENT HARASSERS WHILE YOU'RE OUT IN THE WATER, AND A CALL BEFORE YOU SURF HOTLINE TO HELP THE POLICE KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR YOU.

TIMM BROWNE>> WE WANT EVERYBODY TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT THERE AND ENJOY THIS AND ENJOY THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO OUT AND PURSUE YOUR SPORT AND DO SO WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING HARASSED WHILE YOU'RE IN THE WATER.

GAY YEE>> CHIEF BROWNE SAYS PALOS VERDES MAKES HEADLINES, BUT IN FAIRNESS, THIS PLACE DIDN'T INVENT SURFING LOCALISM. THE SPORT HAS ALWAYS HAD A COMPETITIVE TENSION AS SURFERS JOCKEY FOR THE BEST POSITION ON INCOMING WAVES.

JIM LIGHT>> THERE'S CERTAIN RULES OF THE ROAD THAT YOU LEARN AS YOU PROGRESS THROUGH YOUR SURFING SKILLS THAT THE PERSON WHO'S UP ON THE WAVE FIRST OR WHO IS DEEPEST INSIDE THE POCKET OR NEAREST THE PEAK HAS THE RIGHT-OF-WAY ON THE WAVE. AND FOR SOMEONE TO DROP DOWN IN FRONT OF THEM NOT ONLY RUINS THEIR WAVE, BUT IT'S A DANGEROUS SITUATION.

GAY YEE>> AS WAVES GROW CROWDED, THE RULES BREAK DOWN AND TEMPERS FLARE MUCH LIKE THEY DO AMONG FRUSTRATED DRIVERS IN A TRAFFIC JAM. EVEN THE NICEST GUY IN THE WATER LEARNS TO HATE A CROWD.

THE PROBLEM IS, OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, THE NUMBER OF SURFERS OUT THERE HAS DOUBLED, YET IT'S STILL THE SAME NUMBER OF BREAKS. THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HERE SAYS THAT'S NO EXCUSE, AND THEY'RE TAKING A ZERO TOLERANCE STANCE ON THE MATTER. SO MORE AND MORE, LOCAL SURFERS ARE SORELY TEMPTED TO CREATE A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT, THEY THINK, AND THE CROWDS WILL STAY AWAY.

JIM LIGHT>> YOU KNOW, I SURF THIS WHOLE STRETCH AND THE ONLY PLACE WHERE I FEEL THAT I'M UNSAFE GOING OUT INTO THE WATER IS PALOS VERDES. I'VE SURFED FROM VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE DOWN INTO SAN DIEGO AND THAT'S THE ONLY SPOT I'VE CONSISTENTLY RECEIVED HARASSMENT AND I ACTUALLY FEEL SOMEWHAT AFRAID TO PADDLE OUT INTO THE BREAKS.

GAY YEE>> WITH SURFER RANKS ESTIMATED AT ONE TO TWO MILLION AND GROWING, THIS MAY SIMPLY BE THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE, FOR AS SURE AS THE ARRIVAL OF THE NEXT BIG SWELL IS THE CERTAINTY THAT SURFERS WILL COME FROM FAR AND WIDE TO RIDE IT.

JESS>> A LAWSUIT SPARKED BY A FIGHT FROM LAST YEAR GOES ON TRIAL LATER THIS MONTH IN REDONDO BEACH. THAT SUIT WAS FILED BY A WAVE RIDER WHO CLAIMS HE WAS ATTACKED BY A GROUP OF SURFERS IN PALOS VERDES. THE WAVE RIDER CLAIMS THE FIGHT STARTED AFTER THE SURFERS HIT HIS FATHER IN THE HEAD WITH A ROCK.

VAL>> TOMORROW, A SPECIAL EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES. NEWSHOUR CORRESPONDENT, JEFFREY KAYE, TAKES US TO SOUTH KOREA, A NATION THAT COULD BE ON THE BRINK OF A MILITARY CRISIS.

>> THEY STAND HALF-EXPOSED TO CREATE A SMALLER SIGNATURE, THAT IN CASE A FIREFIGHT DID ERUPT INSIDE THE JOINT SECURITY AREA, IT'S A SMALLER TARGET FOR THE KPA TO SHOOT AT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HERE'S TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES "WHAT DO YOU THINK?" POLL. LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG AND WEIGH IN ON THE FOLLOWING QUESTION: "SHOULD THE U.S. USE FORCE TO RID NORTH KOREA OF NUKES?"

JESS>> LYNCHINGS ARE AN UGLY CHAPTER IN AMERICAN HISTORY ASSOCIATED MAINLY WITH THE SOUTH, BUT IN FACT SCORES OF LYNCHINGS ALSO TOOK PLACE IN CALIFORNIA.

VAL>> IN THE MID-1800'S, OVER A SPAN OF ONLY FOUR YEARS, TWO HUNDRED PEOPLE WERE LYNCHED IN CALIFORNIA. NOW ARTISTS SKETCHED THESE PUBLIC EVENTS AND THE VICTIMS INCLUDED CHINESE AND NATIVE-AMERICANS AS WELL AS BLACKS. WHILE THE INCIDENTS GREATLY DIMINISHED, THE LAST RECORDED LYNCHING IN CALIFORNIA TOOK PLACE HERE AS LATE AS 1947.

JESS>> KEN GONZALES-DAY, A PROFESSOR AT SCRIPPS COLLEGE IN CLAREMONT, IS COMPILING THIS PART OF CALIFORNIA'S DARK HISTORY FOR AN UPCOMING BOOK. HE JOINS US NOW TO TELL US ABOUT HIS WORK. AS AN ART PROFESSOR, THIS IS A RATHER STRANGE TASK TO TAKE ON, ISN'T IT?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. IT IS. I TEACH PHOTOGRAPHY AND SO I WAS DOING SOME RESEARCH ON EARLY IMAGES OF LATINOS IN CALIFORNIA, 1850 TO 1900, WHEN I CAME ACROSS SOME OF THESE IMAGES AND STARTED REALIZING THAT I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS HISTORY AND COULDN'T FIND ANY WRITTEN RECORDS OR HISTORIES OF IT, SO WE SLOWLY KIND OF MOVED INTO THIS VERY EXPANSIVE HISTORY.

VAL>> SO NOW YOU'RE PUTTING TOGETHER NOT JUST THE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE SKETCHES, BUT YOU'RE ALSO COMPILING INFORMATION. HOW BAD WAS LYNCHING AND WHY WAS IT BAD AT TIMES AND NOT SO BAD AT OTHER TIMES?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> I DO HAVE TO CORRECT YOU JUST SLIGHTLY.

VAL>> SURE.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> IT WAS ACTUALLY 220 TOTAL FROM 1850. I BEGAN WITH THE BEGINNING OF STATEHOOD FIGURING THAT LEGALLY THAT'S WHEN THERE WAS A LEGAL SYSTEM AND A JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

JESS>> BUT THE SHOCKING THING IS THE FACT THAT THE LAST ONE OCCURRED IN 1947.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. BUT THEY CERTAINLY DECLINED AFTER 1900, WHEREAS ON THE EAST COAST, THEY ACTUALLY BEGAN TO INCREASE TOWARD THE 1890'S AND 1900 AS THEY BECAME MORE OF A SPECTACLE FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH. IN CALIFORNIA, THEY DECLINED, BUT THE LAST SEVERAL ARE VERY LARGE, OVER TWO THOUSAND PEOPLE.

VAL>> BUT THERE WERE A LOT MAINLY BECAUSE WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE A JUSTICE SYSTEM? IT WAS JUST VIGILANTE JUSTICE AND IT WAS THEIR ONLY WAY OF PUNISHING --

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> -- WELL, THIS IS ONE OF THE MYTHS THAT I SORT OF WANTED TO TAKE ON BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT I READ REPEATEDLY IN VARIOUS HISTORICAL TEXTS, THAT THERE WAS NO LAW, THERE WERE NO SHERIFFS, THERE WAS NO LEGAL SYSTEM, BUT IN FACT THERE WAS. PRACTICALLY FROM THE MINUTE CALIFORNIA BECOMES A STATE, THERE'S A SUPREME COURT, THERE'S A JUDICIAL SYSTEM, THERE ARE COUNTY SEATS AND THERE IS A WHOLE SERIES OF LEGAL PROCEDURES. IN FACT, IN 1852 AND 1851, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WERE PROSECUTED, GIVEN LIFE SENTENCES AND GO THROUGH THE REGULAR LEGAL SYSTEM.

VAL>> SO THE LYNCHINGS WERE ILLEGAL?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> SO THE LYNCHINGS WERE WHAT WE CALL EXTRA LEGAL OR SUMMARY JUSTICE.

JESS>> WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT TURNING A BLIND EYE?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. FOR THE MOST PART OR OCCASIONALLY, IN ONE CASE IN LOS ANGELES, THE CITY'S MAYOR RESIGNED SO THAT HE COULD LEAD THE LYNCHING COMMITTEE AND THEN WAS RE-ELECTED THE FOLLOWING ELECTION.

VAL>> WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT WAS IN THE 1860'S.

VAL>> UNBELIEVABLE.

JESS>> WHAT PROMPTED ARTISTS TO SKETCH AND PAINT THESE SCENES?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> WELL, I'VE BEEN COLLECTING THE PHOTOGRAPHS, ETCHINGS, DRAWINGS, ANYTHING THAT RELATES TO THIS HISTORY AND PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT DEAL WITH CALIFORNIA.

JESS>> INCLUDING WOMEN, APPARENTLY.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. ONE OF THE FIRST CASES IS JUANITA, OR GUISEPPE. THERE'S SOME DEBATE ON HER NAME. BUT IT WAS A LYNCHING JULY 14, 1851.

JESS>> AND HER CRIME?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> HER CRIME WAS -- THERE IS SOME DEBATE OVER IT, BUT A MAN CAME TO VISIT HER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, BROKE DOWN HER DOOR AND THEN LEFT. THE NEXT MORNING, HE CAME BACK AND SHE STABBED HIM.

VAL>> SO IT WAS A MURDER OR WHATEVER. IT COULD HAVE BEEN SELF DEFENSE, BUT --

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> RIGHT.

VAL>> BUT WHY WERE ARTISTS SO INTERESTED IN THIS THAT THEY WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO DRAW IT?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> WELL, IN THE EARLY DAYS, THEY WERE DONE MOSTLY FOR NEWSPAPERS AND PUBLICATIONS, SO THEY'RE REALLY INFORMATION.

JESS>> LIKE THE COURTROOM SKETCH WE OCCASIONALLY SEE TODAY.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. BUT IN THE LATER ONES AFTER 1880, THEY WERE ACTUALLY PHOTOGRAPHED AND SOLD AS POSTCARDS SO THAT THERE IS A VERY GRIM SORT OF MODIFICATION OF THEM.

VAL>> CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THIS ONE?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THIS IS THE 1856 DOUBLE-LYNCHING IN SAN FRANCISCO WHERE THE VIGILANTES DIRECTED THEMSELVES. THEY HAD MILITARY FORCES, THEY HAD GUNS AND THOSE ARE THERE OFFICES. THEY ACTUALLY HUNG THEM OUT OF THE WINDOWS.

VAL>> SO THAT WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO. NOW WE SHOULD SAY THAT YOU DO HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS. WE CHOSE NOT TO SHOW THEM HERE BECAUSE WE THOUGHT THEY'D BE A LITTLE BIT TOO GRIM, BUT THERE ARE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THESE EVENTS.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT.

JESS>> THE SKETCHES ARE GRIM ENOUGH.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. FOR ME, THE IMPORTANT PART OF THE HISTORY WAS THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN CALIFORNIA, WHICH SURPRISED ME. THERE'S ACTUALLY ONLY EIGHT CASES OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

JESS>> THE LARGEST NUMBER WERE LATINO?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S RIGHT, AT NINETY, CURRENTLY ON MY LIST. ANGLOS ARE AT EIGHTY, CHINESE ARE APPROXIMATELY THIRTY, NATIVE-AMERICANS ABOUT TWENTY AND I GUESS THAT'S PRETTY MUCH THE RANGE.

VAL>> SO, BY FAR, MEXICANS WHO WERE, AT THAT TIME, THERE WAS SOME ISSUE ABOUT WHETHER THEY WERE CITIZENS, WHETHER THEY WERE WHITE, WHETHER THEY HAD ALL THE SAME RIGHTS THAT OTHERS DID.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THAT'S CORRECT. TECHNICALLY, AFTER CALIFORNIA BECOMES A STATE, CITIZENSHIP IS EXTENDED TO ALL MEXICANS AT THAT POINT AND THEY ARE GRANTED CITIZENSHIP. SO THEN THE QUESTION WAS AT THAT TIME, ACCORDING TO THE LEGAL CITIZENS AS FAR AS RACIAL CATEGORIES, ONE HAD TO BE WHITE IN ORDER TO BE A CITIZEN. SO THEY BASICALLY CLASSIFIED ALL LATINOS AS ANGLOS AT THAT POINT FROM THE LEGAL PERSPECTIVE.

THAT IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES OF DEALING WITH LATINO HISTORY, IN GENERAL, WHETHER IT'S AN ETHNICITY OR A RACIAL HISTORY OR A CULTURAL HISTORY, WHETHER THESE DISTINCTIONS MATTER. I THINK IN TERMS OF THE HISTORY OF LYNCHING, WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT IT DOES MATTER. THERE IS THIS WHOLE HISTORY THAT HAS BEEN EVAPORATED NOT THROUGH, I DON'T THINK, ANY GREAT CONSPIRACY, BUT TO THE SIMPLE SORT OF INSENSITIVITY OR DIFFICULTY OF RECOGNIZING DIFFERENT CULTURAL GROUPS.

JESS>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE REAL VALUE OF YOUR BOOK?

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> I THINK THE VALUE WILL BE IN, FIRST OF ALL, CHANGING THE UNDERSTANDING FOR BLACKS AS WELL AS FOR WHITES IN THAT THE DYNAMICS BETWEEN LYNCHING OF THE BLACK-WHITE SORT OF POLEMIC THAT KEEPS EVERYONE IN THESE FIXED SORT OF POSITIONS REALLY HAS TO BREAK DOWN, AT LEAST IN CALIFORNIA WHERE THERE WERE SO MANY OTHER COMMUNITIES THAT SUFFERED. CERTAINLY TEXAS AS WELL. MOST OF THE WESTERN STATES. I HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT FAR YET, BUT I SUSPECT THAT THE NUMBERS MIGHT BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN THEY'RE OFFICIALLY RECORDED.

VAL>> WELL, KEN GONZALES-DAY, PROFESSOR OF ART AT SCRIPPS COLLEGE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK, DIFFICULT THOUGH IT IS. WE THINK IT'S VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. WE APPRECIATE YOUR DOING IT FOR US.

KEN GONZALES-DAY>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

JESS>> TIME NOW TO CHECK OUR VIEWER MAIL. QUITE A FEW OF YOU WEIGHED IN THIS WEEK ON THE CONSOLIDATION OF MEDIA OWNERSHIP.

VAL>> AND A FEW OF YOU THOUGHT WE WERE TOO ONE-SIDED AGAINST THE BIG COMPANIES THAT ARE BUYING UP SO MANY TV AND RADIO STATIONS:

"I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH THE FCC RULE CHANGES, BUT YOUR INTERVIEW WAS SO BIASED IN OPPOSITION TO THE RULE CHANGES THAT IT COMPLETELY DISCREDITED THE ENTIRE PRESENTATION."

VAL>> A CANOGA PARK MAN SUGGESTS THE WAY TO PROVIDE JUSTICE FOR A CRIME AGAINST NATURE:

"THE MAN WHO KILLED THE ENDANGERED CONDOR NEEDS A MORE FITTING PUNISHMENT. GIVE HIM WHAT HE DESERVES, A GOOD TAR AND FEATHERING."

VAL>> ONE VIEWER QUESTIONS WEST HOLLYWOOD'S BAN ON DECLAWING CATS:

"I COULD NOT HELP BUT WONDER, IF DECLAWING IS CRUEL, WHY ISN'T NEUTERING?"

VAL>> AND OUR TOPICS ON ONE RECENT PROGRAM PROMPTED A RIVERSIDE MAN TO WRITE:

"WHAT AM I WATCHING? TRANSGENDERS! WHITENESS! ARE YOU ALL CRAZY?"

TO SEND A COMMENT OR A QUESTION TO OUR PROGRAM, YOU CAN REACH US BY MAIL AT THIS ADDRESS:

LIFE AND TIMES
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90027

YOU CAN ALSO CALL OUR VIEWER COMMENT LINE (323) 953-5555) OR CONTACT US THE FAST WAY BY E-MAIL AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> WISDOM COMES IN MANY PACKAGES AND ONE OF THEM IS A YELLOW-FEATHERED POT-BELLIED OVERGROWN CREATURE CALLED "BIG BIRD".

VAL>> AND ONE MAN HAS GIVEN LIFE TO THIS BELOVED "SESAME STREET" CHARACTER SINCE ITS BEGINNING IN 1969. WE'LL MEET HIM IN A FEW MINUTES, BUT FIRST A FEW WORDS FROM "BIG BIRD".

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> CAROLL SPINNEY HAS EMERGED FROM HIS FEATHERS TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE. IT'S CALLED "THE WISDOM OF BIG BIRD AND THE DARK GENIUS OF OSCAR THE GROUCH". CAROLL SPINNEY, WELCOME.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> OH, THANK YOU. NICE TO BE HERE, JESS AND VAL.

JESS>> IT'S RARE TO SEE YOU OUT OF CHARACTER (LAUGHTER).

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH. IT'S SORT OF EASY DOING THAT KNOWING I DON'T EVEN HAVE TO COMB MY HAIR (LAUGHTER), BUT IT'S NICE TO BE HERE.

VAL>> NOW WHY HAVE YOU EMERGED NOW? I MEAN, HAVE YOU TRIED TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS OR IS --

CAROLL SPINNEY>> -- WELL, FIRST I KIND OF THOUGHT I'D NEVER SET OUT TO BE AN ACTOR TO BE SEEN, BUT ACTING AT THE END OF YOUR ARM, YOU COULD BE WHATEVER IS THERE ON YOUR ARM. YOU KNOW, IT COULD BE A PUPPET OF THIS OR THAT OR A CHICKEN OR ANYTHING. BUT NOW I FELT IT WAS FINALLY TIME, IF I'M EVER GOING TO GET AROUND TO WRITING A BOOK, THIS WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO DO IT.

JESS>> I REMEMBER YEARS AGO INTERVIEWING YOU AND YOU NEVER APPEARED OUT OF COSTUME. THERE WAS THE CONCERN THAT, IF THE CHILDREN MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND, AND CHILDREN TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY, DON'T THEY?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YES. AS A MATTER OF FACT, YESTERDAY I RAN INTO SOMEONE AND THEY WERE TOO SPECIFIC TO A LITTLE GIRL AND SHE CAUGHT ON. SHE SAID HER DAUGHTER WHO WAS FIVE CRIED FOR HALF AN HOUR BECAUSE SHE WAS GOING TO INTERVIEW THE MAN. I SAID A FIVE-YEAR-OLD STUDENT DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR THIS. YOU MAY ENJOY BEING ABLE TO TELL IT, BUT DON'T TELL IT.

JESS>> WELL, THERE WAS A STORY WHERE A CHILD WAS FRIGHTENED BY SEEING YOU TAKE OFF BIG BIRD'S HEAD.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH, THAT WAS VERY TRAUMATIC FOR ME TO SEE HOW THIS LOVELY LITTLE BOY REACTED. HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ONLY JUST A TALL THREE AND A HALF YEAR OLD. I WAS AT CENTRAL PARK AND WE LOOKED AROUND AND SAID ANYBODY AROUND? THIS BOY STEPPED OUT FROM BEHIND THE TRUCK. THEY WERE WALKING BY, PROBABLY HIS MOTHER OR NANNY OR SOMEBODY JUST SAID WHAT'S GOING ON OVER THERE? HE SPOTS BIG BIRD AND THIS MAN LIFTS IT OFF.

THE BOY SCREECHED AND HE RAN AWAY. I SAID PUT IT BACK ON ME (LAUGHTER) AND I RAN AFTER HIM AND SAID, LITTLE BOY, LITTLE BOY. HERE HE IS RUNNING, THIS LITTLE GUY, AND I SAID, OH, MY GOSH, THIS IS TRAGIC. I GOT NEAR AND I SAID WAIT, I'M OKAY, AND HE SAID, OH, BIG BIRD, I THOUGHT THAT MAN WAS HURTING YOU. I SAID, NO, I'M FINE. CAN I HAVE A HUG? IT WAS A LOT OF FEATHERS AND HE DISAPPEARED (LAUGHTER) AND HE FELT A LOT BETTER. HE SAID THANK YOU, BIG BIRD, YOU KNOW, HIS LITTLE TEARS ON HIS FACE. IT WAS REALLY SAD.

VAL>> NOW IT'S AMAZING THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN LIFE TO TWO KEY CHARACTERS ON "SESAME STREET". THE OTHER IS "OSCAR THE GROUCH". WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP OF OSCAR. HERE WE ARE.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) NOW THE SUBTITLE OF YOUR BOOKS IS CALLED "AND THE DARK GENIUS OF OSCAR THE GROUCH".

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YES, THERE HE WAS.

VAL>> TELL US A LITTLE BIT. WHAT'S BEHIND THAT OSCAR CHARACTER?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> WELL, I GUESS, TWO TIMES THE SCRIPT HAD HIM BE SO AWFUL THAT I SAID WHY IS HE ON OUR SHOW? I MEAN, HE'S A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE EXAMPLE OF BEHAVIOR (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) HE REALLY IS A GROUCH, HUH?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> I MEAN, THAT WAS PRETTY DARK RIGHT THERE. I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER DOING THAT. WHAT YEAR IS THAT FROM? THAT'S ME, ALL RIGHT.

OSCAR THE GROUCH>> OR PERHAPS IT WAS FROM ME.

JESS>> A GUEST APPEARANCE.

VAL>> OKAY, OSCAR, YOU CAN EXPLAIN. WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A DARK PHILOSOPHY IN LIFE?

OSCAR THE GROUCH>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I JUST SEE THINGS THROUGH DIFFERENT EYES, YOU KNOW. I LIKE BEING MISERABLE AND I DON'T MIND IF OTHER PEOPLE ARE MISERABLE BECAUSE I'M AROUND. BEING MISERABLE MAKES ME HAPPY, BUT I DON'T LIKE TO BE HAPPY, SO THAT MAKES ME MISERABLE, BUT I LOVE TO BE MISERABLE, SO IT MAKES ME HAPPY, BUT I DON'T LIKE TO BE HAPPY --

CAROLL SPINNEY>. -- ALL RIGHT, OSCAR. WE'VE GOT THE POINT.

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) WE NOW KNOW HOW HE GOT THE NAME.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH, THE GROUCH.

OSCAR THE GROUCH>> YEAH, THANKS. I GOT TO GO.

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) THANK YOU FOR MAKING THAT APPEARANCE, OSCAR. NOW THE OTHER THING, YOU HAD TO LEARN A LOT. I MEAN, YOUR BACKGROUND WAS IN PUPPETEERING.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH, I STARTED WHEN I WAS EIGHT.

VAL>> AND JIM HENSON DISCOVERED YOU AS YOU WERE, I GUESS, PERFORMING IN FRONT OF CHILDREN, IS THAT RIGHT?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH. WELL, IT WAS ACTUALLY -- I'D INTENDED IT AS A BIG LIVE SHOW AND I WAS TRYING -- I'M AN ANIMATOR AND SO I MADE ANIMATED CARTOONS. I HAD THE IDEA OF USING A REAR SCREEN PROJECTION. I BUILT THIS BIG STAGE ALL BY MYSELF WITH A BEAUTIFUL REAR SCREEN PROJECTION SYSTEM THAT I RIGGED TOGETHER. SO I MADE A LOT OF ANIMATED BACKGROUNDS AND I MADE PUPPETS THAT WOULD PERFORM IN FRONT OF THEM SO I COULD JUMP FROM BEING LIVE RIGHT UP ONTO THE SCREEN. IT WAS QUITE A SHOW.

I DID IT ONCE IN BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK AND THAT WENT OVER FINE. BUT WHEN I GOT TO DO THE SHOW AT SALT LAKE CITY AT THE NATIONAL PUPPET FESTIVAL, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT JIM WAS IN THE AUDIENCE UNTIL I SUDDENLY SPOTTED HIM OUT THERE. I SAID, OH, MY GOSH, THAT'S JIM HENSON. EVERYTHING WENT WRONG WITH THE SHOW. EVERYTHING WENT WRONG. THEY THREW A HUGE SPOTLIGHT ON WHICH THEY COULDN'T SEEM TO FIND A WAY TO TURN OFF AND IT WASHED OUT THE SCREEN. I'M LOOKING UP TO DO MY SYNCH AND I'M WORKING ON MY KNEES BECAUSE IF I'D BEEN STANDING UP, THE STAGE WOULD HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, TWELVE FEET TALL, SO I HAD TO WORK ON MY KNEES WITH KNEE SWITCHES TO RUN BOTH LIGHTS AND PROJECTORS --

JESS>> -- BUT IT ALL LOOKED SO EASY.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> OH, RIGHT. EVERYTHING WENT WRONG AND IT WAS A DISASTER. IT WAS A TOTAL DISASTER. PEOPLE HAD PAID TWELVE DOLLARS EACH AND THERE WERE NINE HUNDRED PEOPLE SEEING THE MOST PATHETIC SHOW I'VE EVER DONE. BUT IT WAS VERY FUNNY THAT, IN MY DESPERATION APPARENTLY, JIM CAME BACK STAGE AFTERWARDS AND SAID I LIKE WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. HE RECOUNTED SOME DISASTERS HE'D HAD TOO AND HE SAID ACTUALLY I LIKE WHAT YOU CAN DO. I'M GOING TO START DOING THINGS FOR A NEW SHOW CALLED "SESAME STREET". WOULD YOU BE INTERESTED?

JESS>> AND HISTORY HAS BEEN MADE. WHAT ABOUT "THE WISDOM OF BIG BIRD", THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> WELL, IT CAME FROM -- AT FIRST, IT WAS JUST ABOUT MEMOIRS, YOU KNOW, AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND A LOT OF NEAT THINGS THAT I'D GOTTEN TO DO. BUT AN AWFUL LOT OF IDEAS STARTED COMING OUT AND RANDOM HOUSE SAID WE'D LIKE TO HAVE SOME OF THOSE THINGS AS LESSONS, SO I STARTED HAVING TO LOOK AT IT FROM DIFFERENT EYES. I BEGAN TO FIND LOTS OF RATHER SIMPLE AND EASY LESSONS. IT'S NOT A DEEP HEAVY READ. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I'VE LOOKED FOR IT IN THE BOOK STORES --

JESS>> -- WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT GETTING IN TOUCH WITH YOUR INNER BIRD? (LAUGHTER)

CAROLL SPINNEY>> WELL, YEAH, THAT'S A DEEP THING TOO (LAUGHTER). WE LOOKED FOR IT IN PROTANO'S THE OTHER DAY AND THEY HAD IT UNDER RELIGION. IT'S NOT RELIGIOUS. ANOTHER STORE HAD IT UNDER PHILOSOPHY. WELL, THAT'S NOT MY MAJOR, YOU KNOW.

VAL>> HE'S A MULTIDISCIPLINARY BIRD. YOU ALSO HAD TO LEARN SOME THINGS. YOU HAD TO LEARN HOW TO DANCE, I UNDERSTAND, THAT WAS VERY HARD TO DO IN ONE OF THESE COSTUMES.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE ONE OF MY PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW. I CAN DANCE, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND --

VAL>> -- IT LOOKS SO EASY, BUT --

CAROLL SPINNEY>> -- I WAS GIVEN SOME GREAT ADVICE WHEN I FOUND OUT I HAD TWO LEFT FEET. I COULDN'T LEARN STEPS, SO ONE OF THE PUPPETEERS SAID, LISTEN, PRETEND THAT BIG BIRD THINKS HE'S A GREAT DANCER BECAUSE BIG BIRD HAS REALLY GOTTEN HIS OWN SOUL BY NOW. THAT HELPED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT AND NOW I DO WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE HIM TO DO. SHOW ME OR GIVE ME AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU WANT AND I CAN PRETEND I CAN DO THAT. IT WORKS VERY WELL (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> YOU'RE STILL DOING BIG BIRD, YES?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> OH, YES, THIRTY-FOUR YEARS. I'M JUST GETTING GOING.

VAL>> IS THERE ANYBODY WHO CAN TAKE YOUR PLACE WHEN THE DAY COMES WHEN YOU MIGHT WANT TO RETIRE?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YOU KNOW, THEY ASKED ME A FEW YEARS BACK IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO ME, IF I TOOK A COMET IN THE NECK WHEN I WAS WATCHING THE STARS OR SOMETHING --

JESS>> -- OR BIG BIRD BEGINS TO MOLT?

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH. WELL, THEN THEY WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE THE CHARACTER. I HAVE A PROTÉGÉ, THE NICEST FELLOW, AND ONCE IN A WHILE HE GETS TO WORK BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL LIKE SPENDING THREE DAYS AT A BOOK FAIR IN WASHINGTON, D.C., SO HE GOES.

VAL>> A LOT OF WORK. WELL, I'M GLAD THAT BIG BIRD WILL HAVE A SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH, FIFTH LIFE.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> YEAH, I THINK HE'LL BE ON A LONG TIME. IF I DO IT FOR SIX MORE YEARS, I'LL HAVE DONE IT FORTY. THEN I FIGURE I HAVE NO INTENTION OF RETIRING THOUGH, BUT I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HAVE THAT FEATHER IN MY CAP (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> CAROLL SPINNEY, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

CAROLL SPINNEY>> MY PLEASURE. THANK YOU.

JESS>> THE TITLE OF THE BOOK IS "THE WISDOM OF BIG BIRD AND THE DARK GENIUS OF OSCAR THE GROUCH".

VAL>> AND REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN FIND TRANSCRIPTS OR HEAR AUDIO OF LIFE AND TIMES ON OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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