5/26/03

LC030526

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> A MAN WITH TWO LOVES: HIS WIFE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. BUT IT’S A BAD COMBINATION FOR A LOCAL PRIEST.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> AS A HUMAN BEING, AS A MAN, I BEGAN TO SAY WHAT REALLY IS THIS CELIBACY DISCIPLINE ABOUT AND WHY REALLY IS IT A SIN TO BE ATTRACTED TO A WOMAN AND WANT TO BE INTIMATE WITH A WOMAN AND WANT TO BE A FATHER?

VAL>> AND THEN THE LEGENDARY LILY TOMLIN. SHE’S HEADED BACK ON STAGE WITH A CLASSIC SHOW THAT BRINGS SOME GREAT MEMORIES BACK.

JESS>> PLUS, WHY CAN’T THE WEST AND ISLAM JUST GET ALONG?

VAL>> IT’S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> HE CHOSE MARRIAGE OVER THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

JESS>> THAT’S WHAT FORCED A LOS ANGELES MAN TO LEAVE THE PRIESTHOOD. TERRY SWEENEY IS STILL A TRUE BELIEVER, BUT HE SAYS THE SAME POLICIES THAT FORCED HIM OUT HAVE CAUSED MANY OF THE SCANDALS THE CHURCH NOW FACES. AND AS PHILIP BRUCE REPORTS, THIS EX-PRIEST IS NOW PUSHING FOR CHANGE AS AN OUTSIDER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IF HOLLYWOOD WERE TRYING TO CAST TWO ACTORS TO PLAY A HAPPILY MARRIED COUPLE, TERRY AND PAMELA SWEENEY COULD EASILY GET THE ROLES. UNDERSTANDABLE, SINCE PAMELA REALLY IS AN ACTRESS WITH A LONG LIST OF TELEVISION CREDITS AND TERRY IS AN AWARD-WINNING TV WRITER AND PRODUCER. BUT THAT'S WHERE THE SHOW BUSINESS ENDS. THEIR FIFTEEN-YEAR MARRIAGE IS REAL AND IT STANDS OUT NOT BECAUSE THEY LOOK LIKE THE PERFECT COUPLE, BUT BECAUSE TERRY IS A JESUIT PRIEST, OR AT LEAST HE USED TO BE BEFORE THE VATICAN FORCED HIM OUT AFTER SWEENEY DARED TO QUESTION THE CHURCH'S RULES ON CELIBACY.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> I KNEW THAT THE CELIBACY DISCIPLINE WAS WREAKING HAVOC ON THE PRIESTHOOD, BUT I HAD BEEN ADVISED BY VARIOUS SUPERIORS NOT TO ADDRESS IT BECAUSE, UNDER THE CURRENT POPE, THERE WOULD BE SEVERE REPRISALS. SO I WAS AFRAID, I WAS A COWARD, I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SWEENEY DIDN'T GET INTO TROUBLE FOR VIOLATING HIS OATH OF CELIBACY. HE AND PAMELA WEREN'T EVEN TOGETHER THEN, ALTHOUGH HE HAD MET HER. THE THING THAT GOT THE VATICAN'S ATTENTION WAS AN UNAUTHORIZED SURVEY SWEENEY WAS SENDING AROUND TO THE NATION'S THREE HUNDRED BISHOPS. HE ASKED THEM TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS ON TWO HOT-BUTTON ISSUES: WHETHER WOMEN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SERVE AS PRIESTS AND WHETHER CELIBACY SHOULD BE OPTIONAL FOR ALL MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CLERGY.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> THE VATICAN HEARD ABOUT THIS RESEARCH AND FOUND OUT THAT I'D POLLED ALL THE BISHOPS AND INSTRUCTED THE HEAD OF THE JESUITS TO HAVE ME SUPPRESS, DESTROY, THAT RESEARCH. AND THE HEAD OF THE JESUITS IN ROME CONTACTED ME THROUGH MY PROVINCIAL AND SAID, "CEASE, DESIST, DESTROY, OR YOU'RE OUT OF THE JESUIT ORDER AND YOU'LL BE SUSPENDED AS A PRIEST."

PHILIP BRUCE>> SUDDENLY, FATHER TERRY'S WORLD WAS FALLING APART. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHICH HAD BEEN A BEACON IN HIS LIFE SINCE HIS DAYS AS A YOUNGSTER AT L.A.'S LOYOLA HIGH SCHOOL, WAS TRYING TO OSTRACIZE HIM, AND TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE, TERRY'S BROTHER WAS DYING OF CANCER. THE EASY THING WOULD HAVE BEEN TO TEAR UP THE SURVEY, COMPLY WITH THE VATICAN'S WISHES AND GO ON WITH HIS LIFE AS A PRIEST.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> IT FORCED ME TO MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FAITH AND INSTITUTION AND IT FORCED ME TO MAKE VERY SERIOUS DECISIONS OF CONSCIENCE. I REALIZED THAT, IF I SUPPRESSED THE OPINIONS OF THE BISHOPS BECAUSE IT WOULD SAVE MY OWN PRACTICE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, I WOULD FEEL A HYPOCRITE EVERY TIME I GOT UP IN THE PULPIT ON SUNDAYS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SWEENEY REFUSED TO DO WHAT THEY WANTED AND THE JESUIT ORDER MADE GOOD ON ITS THREAT TO SUSPEND HIM, BUT HE NEVER DID TEAR UP THE RESULTS OF THAT SURVEY. NOW, SOME FIFTEEN YEARS LATER, THE FINDINGS RESONATE MORE LOUDLY THAN EVER AS THE CHURCH WRESTLES WITH A HUGE SEX SCANDAL. NEARLY A THIRD OF THE BISHOPS TOLD SWEENEY THEY FAVORED OPTIONAL CELIBACY FOR THOSE IN THE PRIESTHOOD. TODAY SWEENEY SAYS THERE'S NO DOUBT IN HIS MIND THAT CELIBACY HAS HELPED CREATE THE SO-CALLED PREDATOR PRIESTS WHO ARE JUST NOW BEING EXPOSED.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> WHEN YOU HAVE AN INSTITUTION THAT, FOR AT LEAST EIGHT CENTURIES, HAS SAID THAT THE GOD-GIVEN INSTINCT FOR CONJUGAL LOVE IS A SIN AND A TEMPTATION, THEN YOU HAVE PRIESTS WHO ARE NOT SPONTANEOUSLY AND INSTINCTIVELY CELIBATE LOOKING UPON WOMEN, LOOKING UPON CONJUGAL LOVE, LOOKING UPON CHILDREN, AS A SOURCE OF TEMPTATION. NOW PSYCHOLOGICALLY, THAT LEADS TO SICKNESS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AS SWEENEY LEARNED, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ONCE HAD MANY MARRIED PRIESTS AND BISHOPS, EVEN MARRIED POPES. SO WHY DID THE PRACTICE GO AWAY? ARTHUR JONES, AN L.A.-BASED CORRESPONDENT WITH THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER, SAYS THE DECISION HAD LITTLE TO DO WITH RELIGION AND A LOT TO DO WITH PROTECTING THE CHURCH'S WEALTH FROM THE HEIRS OF MARRIED PRIESTS.

ARTHUR JONES>> THE MAJORITY OF PRIESTS WERE MARRIED OR IN OPEN MARRIAGE YOU HAVE CONCUBINES AND YOU HAVE PLENTY OF CHILDREN OF PRIESTS. THERE WAS A GREAT AMOUNT OF MONEY BEING MADE, SO FIVE POPES IN A ROW SAID ENOUGH. ENOUGH OF THIS MARRIAGE BUSINESS. IT'S COSTING US.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AS A JOURNALIST, JONES DOESN'T TAKE A HARD LINE POSITION ON CELIBACY, BUT AS A VETERAN OBSERVER OF THE CHURCH, HE DOUBTS THAT EVEN THE CURRENT SCANDAL WILL PROMPT THE VATICAN TO RETHINK ITS RULES FOR THE PRIESTHOOD.

ARTHUR JONES>> IF YOU GET THE NEXT POPE WHO IS A CLONE OF THIS POPE, THEN HE WILL CONTINUE THE LINE OF NO MARRIED MEN, AND THE ISSUE OF ORDAINED WOMEN IS STILL A LONG WAY OFF.

PHILIP BRUCE>> TERRY SWEENEY STANDS AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN A PRIEST STARTS QUESTIONING THE ANCIENT RULES THE VATICAN LIVES BY. HE STILL CALLS HIMSELF FATHER TERRY AND STILL PERFORMS MANY OF THE DUTIES OF A PRIEST, INCLUDING MARRIAGES, BUT WITHOUT A PARISH TO CALL HIS OWN.

PAMELA SWEENEY>> ON OUR WEDDING DAY, HE STOOD UP AND HE SAID, "I LOVE GOD, I LOVE THE CHURCH AND I LOVE THIS WOMAN, AND THEY'RE NOT INCOMPATIBLE." I COULDN'T HAVE MARRIED TERRY IF I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT HE TRULY FELT THAT.

TERRENCE SWEENEY>> IT ALL CAME DOWN TO ONE CENTRAL QUESTION. WHAT WOULD JESUS WANT ME TO DO? WOULD JESUS WANT ME TO STOP SERVING THE PEOPLE OF GOD BECAUSE I AM A MARRIED PRIEST WHO HAS DEFIED AN UNETHICAL, UNCHRISTIAN LAW? WHEN I FINALLY GOT TO THAT QUESTION, I REALIZED, OF COURSE, JESUS WOULD NOT WANT ME TO.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, TERRY SWEENEY IS STILL A CATHOLIC BELIEVER AND, EXCEPT FOR THE CHURCH'S TEACHINGS ON CELIBACY AND FEMALE PRIESTS, HE'S NEVER REJECTED WHAT HE LEARNED IN SEMINARY. IN SHORT, SWEENEY HAS NEVER CLOSED HIS HEART TO CATHOLICISM, BUT THE CHURCH, AT LEAST OFFICIALLY, REMAINS CLOSED TO HIM. FOR LIFE AND TIMES, I'M PHILIP BRUCE.

JESS>> TERRY SWEENEY AND HIS WIFE RUN A CHRISTIAN-BASED PRODUCTION COMPANY IN LOS ANGELES. HE STILL WEARS THE COLLAR AND MANY OF HIS FRIENDS STILL CALL HIM FATHER, BUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NO LONGER RECOGNIZES SWEENEY AS A MEMBER OF THE CLERGY.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, THE REAL STORY BEHIND L.A.’S SMOG. YOU MAY BLAME IT ON TOO MANY CARS AND SUV’S, BUT HOW ABOUT ROLL-ON DEODORANT, NAIL POLISH AND HOUSEHOLD CLEANERS? DETAILS FROM A SURPRISING NEW STUDY, TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> IS THE CLASH BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE WEST TOO SEVERE TO BE BRIDGED AND, IF SO, WHY IS A THIRTEENTH PERSIAN POET SO POPULAR IN CALIFORNIA? THOSE QUESTIONS ARE EXPLORED IN A NEW BOOK BY WRITER, PICO IYER.

VAL>> THE NOVEL IS CALLED “ABANDON”. IT’S ABOUT A ROMANCE THAT TAKES PLACE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD. THE BOOK EXPLORES THE COLLISION NOT ONLY BETWEEN ISLAM AND THE WEST, BUT BETWEEN SACRED AND SECULAR CULTURES. THE AUTHOR, PICO IYER, IS A PRODUCT OF SEVERAL CULTURES HIMSELF. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

PICO IYER>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

JESS>> HAS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE WEST AND ISLAM BEEN PERMANENTLY DAMAGED BY THE CONFLICTS THAT EXIST TODAY?

PICO IYER>> NO, BECAUSE EVEN NOW, THE MOST POPULAR POET IN AMERICA IS AN ISLAMIC MYSTIC, THE THIRTEENTH CENTURY RUMI. CULTURALLY, I THINK THE TWO OPPOSITE SIDES ARE FASCINATED BY ONE ANOTHER EVEN THOUGH POLITICALLY THEY’RE AT WAR AND THAT’S BEEN THE CASE FOR A LONG TIME. WHENEVER I TRAVEL TO THE MIDDLE EAST, PEOPLE ARE OFTEN QUITE SKEPTICAL ABOUT WASHINGTON, BUT THEY LOVE AMERICAN CULTURE. THEY WANT TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH AMERICAN PEOPLE. MANY OF THEM WANT TO COME LIVE IN CALIFORNIA AND MANY OF US WANT TO GO AND VISIT THEIR CULTURE. SO I THINK THERE’S POTENTIAL FOR COMMON GROUND AND KIND OF RECONCILIATION THERE EVEN WHILE THE GOVERNMENTS ARE SHOUTING INSULTS AT ONE ANOTHER.

VAL>> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT NOT JUST TWO CULTURES THAT ARE CLASHING, BUT WE SEEM TO BE IN CONFLICT IN OURSELVES. I MEAN, WE’RE SORT OF ATTRACTIVE IN NOT -- THAT’S KIND OF WHAT THE NOVEL GETS AT? TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

PICO IYER>> YES. IT’S A MYSTERY AND IT’S A ROMANCE AND, AT THE VERY OUTSET, THIS YOUNG ENGLISHMAN IN SANTA BARBARA STUDYING SUFISM HEARS ABOUT MISSING MANUSCRIPTS THAT MAY HAVE GOTTEN LOST DURING THE TUMULT THAT ATTENDED THE AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI’S TAKEOVER OF IRAN AT THE END OF THE SEVENTIES. PART OF THE EXCITEMENT OF THIS BOOK IS THE SENSE THAT, IF YOU WERE LOOKING FOR AN ANCIENT PERSIAN TREASURE NOW, YOU’RE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO FIND IT IN SANTA MONICA OR WESTWOOD (LAUGHTER) THAN IN TEHRAN.
PARTLY BECAUSE HALF A MILLION IRANIANS LEFT OVERNIGHT AND THEY TOOK WITH THEM THEIR HEIRLOOMS, THEIR CARPETS, THEIR MANUSCRIPTS AND THEIR MINIATURES AND BROUGHT THEM TO PARIS, VANCOUVER, BUT VERY MUCH MOST OF ALL, LOS ANGELES.

I THINK PART OF MY SENSE TOO IS WE TALK SO MUCH ABOUT ISLAM OVER THERE AND CALIFORNIA OVER HERE AND YET HERE IN LOS ANGELES THERE IS SUCH A LARGE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY AND OVER IN THE MIDDLE EAST THEY HAVE THEIR FASCINATION WITH VICTORIA’S SECRET, JENNIFER LOPEZ, BAYWATCH, AND THERE ARE MORE AND MORE AMERICAN PEOPLE OVER THERE. SO IT GETS HARDER AND HARDER TO SAY WHO IS US AND WHO IS THEM. IT’S ALL MIXED UP THESE DAYS.

JESS>> WE DESCRIBED YOU AS A MAN OF VARIOUS CULTURES. YOU ARE IRANIAN?

PICO IYER>> NO, I’M ACTUALLY OF INDIAN ORIGIN AND I’M HINDU, SO MY FOREBEARS, SAD TO SAY, HAVE BEEN AT ODDS WITH ISLAM FOR MANY YEARS. THAT’S ONE REASON WHY I THOUGHT I SHOULD TRY TO IMAGINE HOW THE WORLD I THINK I KNOW LOOKS TO SOMEBODY FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE.

JESS>> BUT YOU LIVE IN JAPAN.

PICO IYER>> I LIVE IN JAPAN. I WAS BORN IN ENGLAND.

VAL>> BORN IN ENGLAND, RAISED IN CALIFORNIA, EDUCATED IN OXFORD AND I THINK EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY HAS BEEN STAMPED ON YOUR PASSPORT.

PICO IYER>> YES, WHICH GOES BACK TO YOUR QUESTION WHICH IS, IF I’M ASKING WHICH PART IS EAST OR WEST OR WHICH PART IS ISLAMIC OR ANCIENT TRADITION WHICH IS MODERN, I HAVE TO LOOK IN MYSELF AND THERE ARE LITTLE BITS OF EVERYTHING INSIDE OURSELVES. AGAIN, TO ME, IT IS A HOPEFUL SIGN. I THINK IN MY GRANDFATHER’S GENERATION, THERE WAS A MUCH BIGGER SPLIT BETWEEN THIS CULTURE AND THAT, BUT NOW BECAUSE THEY’RE MIXED UP, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE OTHER, WE’RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT OURSELVES.

VAL>> NOW DOES THIS -- IN A WAY, YOU SORT OF SYMBOLIZE THE CITIZEN OF THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY, A TRUE GLOBAL CITIZEN, AND YET WE HAVE DIVISIONS THAT ARE GREATER THAN EVER. ARE THEY CREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT VERSUS THE PEOPLE? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

PICO IYER>> WELL, I THINK THE GLOBAL VILLAGE IS LIKE ANY VILLAGE EXCEPT THAT WE’RE ALL THROWN TOGETHER AND SO THEY’RE MORE INTENSE. IT USED TO BE THE CASE THAT -- THE GOVERNMENTS ALWAYS HAVE FRIENDS AND ENEMIES, BUT INDIVIDUALS I THINK ARE OFTEN ABLE TO LOOK ACROSS THAT. SO NOW THAT WE ALL HAVE SUCH ACCESS TO ONE ANOTHER, AS TRAGICALLY FOUND ON SEPTEMBER 11, THE DIVISIONS THAT ONCE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE WORLD HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, AS MY BOOK BEGINS TO EXPLORE, ALL THESE ANCIENT CULTURES ARE COMING INTO LOS ANGELES BRINGING THEIR HISTORIES, THEIR TRADITIONS, THEIR SONGS, THEIR RHYTHMS, THEIR WORDS, AND SO LOS ANGELES IS BECOMING A MUCH RICHER AND MORE INTERESTING PLACE. PEOPLE ALWAYS THINK OF LOS ANGELES AS THE LAST WORD OF THE NEW, THE ULTIMATE SORT OF CENTER OF TOMORROW, AND YET NOW IT’S FILLED WITH PEOPLE FROM IRAN, INDIA, VIETNAM, EL SALVADOR, ALL THESE ANCIENT PLACES. SO AGAIN, YOU CAN HARDLY EVEN TALK ABOUT OLD AND NEW ANYMORE.

JESS>> BUT HAVE THESE CULTURES BLENDED TOGETHER OR ARE THEY STILL DISTINCT CULTURES THAT COEXIST?

PICO IYER>> THAT'S WELL SAID. I THINK THEY'RE, TO SOME EXTENT, SEGREGATED AND IT'S EASY TO LIVE, SAY, IN KOREA TOWN HERE AND LIVE AS IF YOU'RE STILL IN SEOUL, KOREA, OR LIVE IN LITTLE INDIA AND IMAGINE THAT YOU'RE IN BANGALORE. BUT I THINK THE GOOD THING IS THAT ALL OF US WHO LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ARE NOW THE BENEFICIARIES OF ALL THESE DIFFERENT CULTURES. WE CAN EAT ETHIOPIAN FOOD, WE CAN GO AND SEE JAPANESE MUSIC, WE CAN LEARN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT RUMI WHICH I THINK, FIFTY YEARS AGO, WOULD HAVE SEEMED LIKE ANOTHER PLANET TO US. AGAIN, I THINK THERE'S A POSSIBILITY, BY UNDERSTANDING MORE ABOUT OTHER CULTURES BECAUSE THEY COME TO OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, OF GETTING ON WITH THEM BETTER.

VAL>> AND YET IT'S MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT. IT'S MORE THAN JUST BEING ABLE TO SHARE AND CELEBRATE DIVERSITY AND EAT ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT FOODS. I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME REAL SERIOUS TENSIONS AND SOME GAPS. YOU TALK ABOUT THIS, LIKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN, WHAT DO YOU CALL, THE FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THE FAITHLESS. TALK ABOUT SOME OF THOSE DEEPER DIVISIONS.

PICO IYER>> I THINK, TO ME, THE FUNDAMENTAL WORLD THAT I SEE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD IS ALMOST BETWEEN THE PAST TENSE AND THE FUTURE TENSE AND, IN SOME WAYS, THAT'S SIMILAR TO THE DIALOGUE WE HAVE INSIDE OURSELVES, AS YOU WERE SAYING. BUT IT'S EVEN MORE SIMILAR TO THE DIALOGUE WE HAVE IN ANY FAMILY EXCEPT NOW IT'S A WHOLE PLANETARY FAMILY. I THINK, IN MOST FAMILIES, IT'S THE GRANDPARENTS WHO ALWAYS SAY LET'S GO BACK TO THE WAY THINGS USED TO BE. EVERYTHING WAS BETTER WHEN WE WERE KIDS. THE KIDS ARE SAYING LET'S GO FORWARD. EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE BETTER DAY AFTER TOMORROW.

NOW THAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GLOBAL SCALE. THE OLD CULTURES, ONES LIKE THE ISLAMIC CULTURE, WANT TO STICK TRUE TO THE ANCHOR AND, WHAT WAS MANY CENTURIES IN CALIFORNIA WHICH IS TRADITIONALLY SEEN AS NEW, WANT TO GO FORWARD AND THEY'RE KIND OF PULLING IN BOTH DIRECTIONS AT ONCE AND WE GET CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE. ONE OF THE THINGS I DO IN MY NOVEL "ABANDON" IS HAVE A CHARACTER FALL IN LOVE WITH A TYPICAL CALIFORNIAN GIRL, SO SHE SEEMS, AND THEN LATER WE REALIZE SHE HAS A CONNECTION WITH ISLAM, TO GET THE SENSE THAT WE THINK WE'RE IN LOVE WITH ONE THING AND YET SUDDENLY WE REALIZE THAT WE'RE EMBRACING WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS THE ENEMY AND, IN FACT, IT'S OUR LOVE.

JESS>> WE'VE TALKED ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM. DO WE NOT MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN RADICALISM AND FUNDAMENTALISM?

PICO IYER>> I'M MORE INTERESTED IN NOT SO MUCH FUNDAMENTALISM, BUT PEOPLE WITH A VERY STRONG CONNECTION TO THEIR FAITH AND PEOPLE WITH NO FAITH AT ALL AND IT BEING ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO COMMUNICATE. I THINK THAT'S AN INSUPERABLE PROBLEM. SPEAKING DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, AS IF ONE PERSON IS ASKING A QUESTION IN ARABIC AND GETTING AN ANSWER IN CHINESE, THERE'S NO WAY THAT THOSE TWO GROUPS WILL EVER BE ABLE TO --

JESS>> -- AND WHEN THERE'S A ROMANCE, IT'S VERY COMPLICATED (LAUGHTER).

PICO IYER>> (LAUGHTER) ROMANCES CAN GET BY WITHOUT WORDS SOMETIMES, MORE THAN CONFLICTS.

VAL>> SO WHAT COUNTRIES WOULD SYMBOLIZE THAT? WOULD AMERICA BE THE, WHAT DO YOU CALL, ATHEIST OR AGNOSTIC? THE GODLESS SOCIETY? BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY NOT TRUE.

PICO IYER>> THAT'S NOT TRUE. I MEAN, IN THE CONFLICT CURRENTLY BETWEEN WASHINGTON AND THE MIDDLE EAST, EACH HAS A VERY STRONG COMMITMENT TO A RELIGION. IT JUST HAPPENS TO BE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS. BUT I THINK CALIFORNIA OFFERS A SORT OF MTV SWELL. LOTS OF THINGS THROWN TOGETHER, AND IT'S AT LEAST FURTHER AWAY FROM THESE TRADITIONAL CAUSES THAN ANY OTHER PLACE I KNOW AND SO TO THEM SEEMS THREATENING BECAUSE IT SPEAKS A LANGUAGE THAT DOESN'T TRANSLATE, BUT IT'S, TO SOME EXTENT, FASCINATING AS WELL AS UNSETTLING TO PEOPLE ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE WORLD. I THINK ONE THING THAT'S ALSO TAKING PLACE IS THAT WE'RE IN THE AGE WHERE THE STRONGEST CULTURE IN THE WORLD IS THE YOUNGEST AND SO --

VAL>> -- MEANING AMERICA IS MILITARILY THE STRONGEST AND WE'RE THE YOUNGEST?

PICO IYER>> ECONOMICALLY AND, YES, SO THE OLDER CULTURES FEEL A LITTLE AS IF IT'S A SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD LORDING OVER A GROUP OF EIGHT-YEAR-OLDS. THEY ADMIRE AND ACTUALLY ENVY THE SIXTEEN-YEAR-OLD'S ENERGY AND OPTIMISM AND ENTHUSIASM, WHICH AMERICA HAS IN SPADES, BUT THEY THINK, WELL, MAYBE HE DOESN'T REALLY KNOW AS MUCH AS WE DO AND ISN'T NECESSARILY IN A FIT POSITION TO PRONOUNCE ON US.

VAL>> WELL, I HOPE WE CAN MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL AND SYNTHESIZE IT EVENTUALLY. PICO IYER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'D LOVE TO TALK LONGER.

PICO IYER>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> THE NAME OF YOUR NOVEL, AGAIN, IS "ABANDON: A ROMANCE".

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JESS>> IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK OF LILY TOMLIN WITHOUT SMILING. OVER THE YEARS, SHE'S CREATED SO MANY MEMORABLE CHARACTERS AND MOST OF THEM HAVE MADE US LAUGH, BUT SHE'S ALSO A TALENTED DRAMATIC ACTRESS AND NOW ON "THE WEST WING". SHE GETS TO BE BOTH FUNNY AND SERIOUS IN HER ROLE AS PRESIDENT BARTLETT'S SECRETARY.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> BUT LONG BEFORE SHE WENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE, LILY TOMLIN WAS LOOKING FOR SIGNS OF INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE AND SHE'LL SOON BE ON STAGE AGAIN REVIVING HER CLASSIC ONE-WOMAN SHOW BY THAT NAME. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

LILY TOMLIN>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BOTH OF YOU.

JESS>> THAT WILL BE A WELCOME RETURN OF THAT MUCH-LOVED PRODUCTION, BUT THE "SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF INTELLIGENCE LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE" SEEMS SOMEHOW EVEN MORE TIMELY IN TODAY'S CHAOS.

LILY TOMLIN>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M GLAD YOU SAID THAT, JESS, BECAUSE I PLAYED FOR SIX MONTHS UP IN SAN FRANCISCO RIGHT AFTER I OPENED ON 9/13 AFTER 9/11 AND I COULD TELL THE PLAY MEANT EVEN MORE TO PEOPLE THAN IT HAD, YOU KNOW, FIFTEEN YEARS AGO WHEN PEOPLE RECEIVED IT SO WELL. I THINK BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF AN AFFIRMATION OF OUR OWN HUMANITY.

JESS>> DID IT REQUIRE ANY UPDATING?

LILY TOMLIN>> WELL, YOU KNOW, NOT SPECIFICALLY, NO. BUT OVER THE YEARS WHENEVER WE’D PUT IT UP AND WORK ON IT, WE'D ALWAYS TWEAK THINGS AND CHANGE THINGS AND COMPRESS THINGS. BUT, NO, THE PLAY IS REALLY TIMELESS AND RELATES TO MOST ANYTHING THAT'S GOING ON.

VAL>> WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE TELEVISION PRODUCTION FROM 1991. HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE CLASSIC "SEARCH FOR INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE".

LILY TOMLIN>> THANKS.

[FILM CLIP]>> "I DON'T WANT TO OVER-ROMANTICIZE IT, BUT FRANKLY, GOING CRAZY WAS THE BEST THING EVER HAPPENED TO ME. I DON'T SAY IT'S FOR EVERYBODY. SOME PEOPLE COULDN'T COPE. BUT FOR ME, IT CAME AT A TIME WHEN NOTHING ELSE SEEMED TO BE WORKING. UH-OH, RUNAWAY CART! AH, GO AHEAD AND STARE, RUBBERNECKS. I LOVE AN AUDIENCE. I GOT THE KIND OF MADNESS SOCRATES TALKED ABOUT, "A DIVINE RELEASE OF THE SOUL FROM THE YOKE OF CUSTOM AND CONVENTION". I REFUSE TO BE INTIMIDATED BY REALITY ANYMORE. AFTER ALL, WHAT IS REALITY ANYWAY? NOTHING BUT A COLLECTIVE HUNCH."

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) IT IS TIMELY.

LILY TOMLIN>> YEAH, I WAS JUST RELATING MYSELF. I WAS THINKING THAT I REFUSE TO BE INTIMIDATED BY REALITY ANYMORE (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> SO IT HASN'T CHANGED THAT MUCH. IT'S JUST EVOLVED A LITTLE?

LILY TOMLIN>> JUST WHAT?

VAL>> THE STAGE SHOW HAS EVOLVED JUST A LITTLE?

LILY TOMLIN>> NO, JUST REFINEMENTS. YOU KNOW, JANE WAGNER, WHO'S THE AUTHOR AND THE DIRECTOR, WE JUST SAY THIS IS A BETTER WAY TO SAY IT OR THIS IS A MORE CLEAR WAY TO SAY IT, MORE IMPACTFUL.

VAL>> YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ASSUME YOU WROTE IT BECAUSE IT JUST SOUNDS SO MUCH LIKE YOU.

LILY TOMLIN>> YEAH, EVERYONE THINKS THAT. I WORKED WITH JANE FOR SO MANY YEARS AND WE SHARE SUCH A SIMILAR SENSIBILITY. I MEAN, I FEEL LIKE I ALWAYS KNOW WHERE SHE'S HEADED. MANY TIMES, I'LL KEEP SIX OR SEVEN DRAFTS OF A MONOLOGUE IN MY HEAD AT THE SAME TIME AND MOVE THEM AROUND. SHE'LL SAY, OH, LET'S TRY THIS PART AND SOMEHOW I'M ABLE TO DO THAT. I THINK BECAUSE I DO UNDERSTAND, BEFORE SHE GETS THERE, I ALMOST KNOW WHERE SHE'S GOING EVEN THOUGH I COULDN'T POSSIBLY TELL YOU VERBALLY WHAT IT IS.

JESS>> YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR CHARACTERS IN THIRD PERSON.

LILY TOMLIN>> YEAH, I DO. YOU KNOW, MOST OF THEM DO LIVE IN SOME OTHER PLACE AND I'VE ALWAYS FELT LIKE THEY ARE PEOPLE THAT -- I USED TO ALWAYS THINK WHEN I DID ERNESTINE, THE TELEPHONE OPERATOR, I THOUGHT SHE WAS LIKE BETTE DAVIS, YOU KNOW, AND I WAS JUST ONE OF THE MANY PEOPLE WHO IMITATED HER (LAUGHTER). SHE WAS SUCH A BIG ARCHETYPE THAT I THOUGHT SHE'D LIVED SOMEWHERE OUT THERE AND I JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN TO MEET HER PERSONALLY.

VAL>> BUT NOBODY CAN DO ERNESTINE LIKE YOU, OR BUT YOU, AND IN FACT SHE'S MADE A, WHAT WOULD YOU CALL IT?

JESS>> WEB-X COMMERCIALS?

VAL>> SHE'S BEEN REINCARNATED AGAIN.

LILY TOMLIN>> OH, SHE LOOKS FABULOUS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE MADE HER HAIR -- TAKING HER SAME HAIRSTYLE OR CLASSIC HAIRSTYLE, BUT WE TOOK AWAY HER CURLY BANGS AND PUT IN A WRAP LIKE THIS THAT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE HAT SITTING ON HER HEAD.

JESS>> BUT SHE HAS THE SAME SNORT?

LILY TOMLIN>> SAME SNORT.

VAL>> BUT THAT'S WITH THE WEB-X COMMERCIALS.

LILY TOMLIN>> BUT NOW SHE'S A GLOBAL COMMUNICATIONS VISIONARY, YOU KNOW, RATHER THAN AN OPERATOR (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> BUT WE'RE GOING TO REMIND PEOPLE OF WHERE SHE ALL BEGAN. HERE'S A CLASSIC CLIP FROM ERNESTINE.

[FILM CLIP]>> "ONE RINGEY-DINGEY, TWO RINGEY-DINGEY. A GRACIOUS GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. VEEDLE. I'M MISS TOMLIN, YOUR REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE TELEPHONE COMPANY, AND YOU OWE US A BALANCE OF $23.64. WHEN MAY WE EXPECT PAYMENT? IT'S FOR THREE CALLS TO TOPEKA KANSAS. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYONE IN TOPEKA, KANSAS? (SNORT) WELL, MR. VEEDLE, THAT'S BESIDE THE POINT. NOW WHEN MAY WE EXPECT PAYMENT? WHEN WHAT FREEZES OVER? NOW MR. VEEDLE, YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH JUST ANYONE'S FOOL. I AM A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE. MR. VEEDLE?"

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) AND NOW IT'S WEB-X.

LILY TOMLIN>> YOU KNOW, ERNESTINE WAS THRILLED BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SHE REALLY DOES NOT LIKE TO BE OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHT. I MEAN, WHEN SHE WORKED FOR THE PHONE COMPANY, SHE WAS TRULY OMNIPOTENT (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> BUT WHEN SHE WORKED FOR THE PHONE COMPANY, THERE WAS A PHONE COMPANY.

LILY TOMLIN>> THAT'S RIGHT, AND THE PHONE COMPANY WAS OMNIPOTENT (LAUGHTER), SO THAT POWER TRANSFERRED TO HER VERY EASILY. YOU KNOW, WHEN I HAD TO PUT A SMILE IN MY VOICE, THAT WAS THE END OF IT. I'M JUST NOT USED TO PANDERING TO PEOPLE OR BEING NICE TO THEM (LAUGHTER). ERNESTINE WAS ALWAYS GREAT FUN, YOU KNOW. ONE OF MY FAVORITE LINES OF HERS WAS "YOU KNOW, NO MATTER HOW NASTY I GET, I'M ALWAYS HOLDING BACK."

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) YOU HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED AS A CAST OF THOUSANDS IN ONE WOMAN'S BODY. HAVE YOU EVER COUNTED UP ALL THE CHARACTERS YOU'VE DONE?

LILY TOMLIN>> NO. WITH TELEVISION SPECIALS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE FORTY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

VAL>> ARE YOU CONTINUING TO CREATE THEM? ARE YOU STILL CREATING NEW ONES?

LILY TOMLIN>> YEAH, I ALWAYS STILL TRY TO DO NEW CULTURE TYPES, BUT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING INTO COMEDY AND DOING CHARACTERS NOW. I'D SEE SOMEBODY WHO'S ON A REGULAR SHOW, YOU KNOW, AND IF THEY DO A NEW CULTURE TYPE, I SAY, OH, GOD, WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THIS CULTURE TYPE? WHY DIDN'T I DO THAT? I LOVE THAT KIND OF THING.

JESS>> BUT WHAT A TWIST NOW TO BE DOING DRAMATIC IN "THE WEST WING".

LILY TOMLIN>> YEAH. WELL, YOU KNOW, I NEVER REALLY SAW ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMEDY AND DRAMA. CHARACTERS ARE JUST ONE DEGREE OF EXTREMITY OR ANOTHER. YOU KNOW, SOME ARE SUBTLER, SOME ARE NOT. THE STYLE OF SOMETHING IS JUST LARGER OR FURTHER OUT AND SOME THINGS AREN'T.

JESS>> BUT WHEN WE FIRST SAW YOU ON "THE WEST WING", WE EXPECTED YOU TO LAPSE INTO ONE OF YOUR ROUTINES. THEY'RE SO FAMILIAR TO US AND WE MISSED IT. BUT WHEN YOU SAID YOU WERE HIGH, THAT HELPED.

LILY TOMLIN>> (LAUGHTER) DID IT? THAT EXPLAINED IT FOR YOU? OH, THAT'S GOOD. I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT EITHER, JESS. WELL, THANKS FOR GETTING ME OFF THE HOOK (LAUGHTER). WHY I STARTED DOING ALL THOSE CHARACTERS, I CAN'T REALLY SAY. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT JUST APPEALED TO ME TREMENDOUSLY AS A KID. I HAD A GRADE SCHOOL TEACHER, YOU KNOW, WHO USED TO READ OLD DIALECT POEMS TO US ON FRIDAYS BEFORE WE'D GO HOME.

I MEAN, THINGS THAT ARE LIKE TOTALLY, AND I'M SURE NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, REAL BROAD THINGS LIKE A BLACK DIALECT, ITALIAN, GERMAN, LIKE "LIZA, LIZA, BLESS THE LORD, DON'T YOU KNOW TODAY'S ABROAD? IF YOU DON'T GET UP, YOU SCAMP, THERE BE TROUBLE IN THIS CAMP." THINGS LIKE THAT, SEE. OR IN ITALIAN, THEY'D DO "YOU KNOW FOR WHY THE SCHOOL KEEP OUT OF THIS HOLIDAY, MY SON? WELL, THEN I GONNA TELL YOU ABOUT LITTLE GEORGIO WASHINGTON." I THOUGHT, OH, THIS IS -- OF COURSE, I GREW UP WITH RADIO TOO, SO I WAS THRILLED WITH WHAT THE VOICE COULD DO, YOU KNOW, AND CREATE CHARACTERS AND SCENES AND RELATIONSHIPS.

VAL>> WELL, I GUESS IT WORKED. THANK YOUR GRADE SCHOOL TEACHER.

JESS>> LILY TOMLIN, WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU HERE.

LILY TOMLIN>> THANK YOU BOTH A LOT.

JESS>> OUR THANKS TO LILY TOMLIN AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE UPCOMING SHOW AT THE AHMANSON THEATER IN MAY.

VAL>> AND WE INVITE YOU TO STAY TUNED TO KCET FOR THE LATEST NEWS ON THE CRISIS WITH IRAQ. WE WILL KEEP YOU UP TO DATE WITH THE NEWSHOUR AND REPORTS FROM THE BBC. AND AS ALWAYS, WE INVITE YOU TO GO TO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND THAT'S TONIGHT'S PROGRAM. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANKS AND GOOD NIGHT.

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