5/29/03

LC030529

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> THE STORY OF A DISPLACED COMMUNITY, IMMIGRANTS FORCED TO GIVE UP THEIR HOMES TO MAKE WAY FOR BASEBALL.

RICHARD MONTOYA>> A COLLECTIVE MEMORY OF A COMMUNITY IS A VERY TRICKY THING AND EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN MEMORIES. WE'RE JUST TELLING ONE OF WHAT COULD BE THOUSANDS OF VERSIONS OF THE STORY. WE'RE JUST TELLING ONE. IT'S NOT THE BE ALL AND END ALL.

VAL>> AND THEN, A MAN YOU KNOW FOR HIS MOVIE REVIEWS FACES FATHERHOOD AND CANCER ALL IN THE ONE YEAR. WE'LL HEAR FROM "GOOD MORNING, AMERICA" JOEL SIEGEL.

JESS>> PLUS, IT WAS THE BIGGEST COVERT OPERATION IN CIA HISTORY, ARMING AND TRAINING AFGHAN SOLDIERS AGAINST THE SOVIETS.

VAL>> IT'S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
THE STATE'S LARGEST HEALTH FOUNDATION SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT DIRECTLY IMPROVE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF CALIFORNIA'S DIVERSE COMMUNITIES. THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT, A PARTNER FOR HEALTHIER COMMUNITIES.

VAL>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS>> THE STORY OF AN IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY THAT WAS OUSTED TO MAKE WAY FOR THE DODGERS. CHAVEZ RAVINE IS A CHAPTER IN LOS ANGELES HISTORY THAT'S OFTEN RECOUNTED, ALTHOUGH NOT ALWAYS ACCURATELY. NOW A NEW STAGE PLAY IS RETELLING THE STORY OF CHAVEZ RAVINE AND, AS TONI GUINYARD REPORTS, IT IS REVIVING SOME MEMORIES AS WELL.

TONI GUINYARD>> CHAVEZ RAVINE, THE THEATER PERFORMANCE, IS GIVING AUDIENCES A PEEK INTO A TURBULENT PERIOD IN LOS ANGELES HISTORY, A LOOK BACK AT 1950 AND THE EXODUS OF PEOPLE FROM AN AREA MOST LOS ANGELES RESIDENTS KNOW ONLY AS CHAVEZ RAVINE. AT THE TIME, THE SITE WAS HOME TO LA LOMA, BISHOP AND PALO VERDE, SEVERAL CLOSE-KNIT, BUT POOR, IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES. THE RESIDENTS WERE EVICTED WHEN THE SPOT WAS DEEMED A PRIME LOCATION FOR A PUBLIC HOUSING PROJECT. THE CITY TOOK THE LAND BY RIGHT OF EMINENT DOMAIN.

VIRGINIA PINEDO>> PEOPLE HAD TO LEAVE BECAUSE THE PROPERTIES WHERE THEY LIVED OR OWNED WERE SOLD. A LOT OF THEM TRIED TO STAY CLOSE BY BECAUSE THE IDEA WAS THAT, WHEN THE NEW HOUSING WAS BUILT, WE'LL GET TO GO BACK TO OUR NEIGHBORHOOD. WELL, WE ALL KNOW THAT THAT NEVER CAME TO PASS.

TONI GUINYARD>> VIRGINIA PINEDO WAS A CHILD WHEN THE EVICTIONS WERE TAKING PLACE. SHE CLEARLY RECALLS THE WAR OF WILLS PITTING POOR RESIDENTS WHO REFUSED TO MOVE AGAINST CITY HALL INTERESTS. NINE YEARS AFTER THE EVICTIONS BEGAN, THE LAST FAMILY LEFT IN CHAVEZ RAVINE WAS FORCIBLY REMOVED BY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES. THE PUBLIC HOUSING PROJECT WAS NEVER BUILT. DODGER STADIUM NOW STANDS WHERE THE COMMUNITIES ONCE STOOD.

VIRGINIA PINEDO>> I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE RUN ACROSS PEOPLE WHO SAY, OH, YES, THOSE POOR MEXICANS WERE THROWN OUT BY THE DODGERS SO THEY COULD BUILD DODGER STADIUM. THERE'S A BIG CHUNK OF HISTORY AND FACTS THAT THEY LEAVE OUT BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW. THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE LEFT WITH WHEN THEY WATCHED THE TELEVISION.

[FILM CLIP]

TONI GUINYARD>> NOW THEY WATCH CENTER STAGE. THE PERFORMANCE OF CHAVEZ RAVINE BY SOCIAL SATIRISTS, CULTURE CLASH, TURNS BACK THE HANDS OF TIME. FIRST TO 1981, DODGER STADIUM. THROUGH THE EYES OF THEN DODGER'S PITCHER, FERNANDO VALENZUELA, WE MEET THE PEOPLE OF LA LOMA, BISHOP AND PALO VERDE.

HERBERT SEGUENZA>> WHEN WE FIRST CAME TO LOS ANGELES, I HEARD ABOUT CHAVEZ RAVINE AND EVERYONE SAYS, WELL, THE DODGERS KICKED EVERYONE OUT. THEN WHEN WE DID OUR RESEARCH, WE FOUND OUT THAT THE STORY WAS MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT.

[FILM CLIP]

RIC SALINAS>> THIS PLAY WAS REALLY TAKING ORAL HISTORY AND TAKING ALL THIS RESEARCH, BUT WE'RE STILL TALKING TO PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE FONDEST OF FONDEST OF MEMORIES OF A PLACE THAT THEY DON'T CALL CHAVEZ RAVINE. IT'S LA BISHOP, PALO VERDE AND LA LOMA.

HERBERT SEGUENZA>> YOU'VE GOT TO REALIZE THAT THESE WERE POOR PEOPLE LIVING ONLY TWO MILES AWAY FROM CITY HALL OR A MILE AWAY, SO PEOPLE WERE LOOKING AT THAT LAND AS SOMETHING TO DEVELOP, AS SOMETHING TO BRING UP. THEY WANTED TO REBUILD LOS ANGELES, TO MAKE IT INTO A METROPOLIS, AND THESE PEOPLE WERE, IN A WAY, IN THE WAY.

[FILM CLIP]

RIC SALINAS>> THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT TOOK THE MONEY AND SAID GREAT, I'VE BEEN DYING TO GET OUT OF HERE. YOU KNOW, THEY CALLED IT A SLUM. SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T CALL IT A SLUM. IT ALL DEPENDED. IT WAS A WHOLE COMMUNITY WITH DIFFERENT IDEAS AND OPINIONS.

[FILM CLIP]

RICHARD MONTOYA>> WE BASICALLY FOLLOW ALL THOSE STORIES, INCLUDING PEOPLE THAT WORKED FOR THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES, AND WE DON'T JUST FOLLOW THE STORIES OF LATINO RESIDENTS.

[FILM CLIP]

TONI GUINYARD>> IN TWO HOUR'S TIME, ANOTHER VIEW OF LOS ANGELES HISTORY, THIS TIME REALITY PERHAPS SOFTENED BY HUMOR, ANOTHER VERSION OF WHAT HAPPENED IN CHAVEZ RAVINE AND WHY, TO BE PASSED DOWN FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION JUST AS VIRGINIA PINEDO HAS DONE.

VIRGINIA PINEDO>> ON THE OLD MAP, YOU STILL SEE THE NAMES OF THE STREETS AND THE WAY THE WHOLE NEIGHBORHOOD USED TO BE.

TONI GUINYARD>> SHOWING AND SHARING WITH HER DAUGHTER AND GRANDDAUGHTER MEMORIES OF LIFE IN THIS PLACE BACK THEN.

ERICKA MONGES>> SOMETIMES SHE WOULD GO INTO CHAVEZ RAVINE AND SAY THAT ONCE THERE WERE HOUSES AND HOUSES UP ON THIS HILL AND I'M LIKE REALLY?

VIRGINIA PINEDO>> MY GIRLFRIEND, DOLORES, WAS THIRTEEN AND I MUST HAVE BEEN FOURTEEN. SHE WAS TOLD IN JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL YOU'D BETTER RUN HOME BECAUSE THEY'RE KNOCKING DOWN YOUR GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE, AND THAT'S THE PICTURE THAT EVERYBODY IS LEFT WITH, THE HOUSE BEING BULLDOZED AND HER MOTHER AND HER AUNTS BEING ARRESTED BY THE SHERIFFS.

RAQUEL MONGES>> IT'S VERY PERSONAL TO HER. I KNOW IT IS. I MEAN, SHE'S PART OF THE HISTORY TOO OF THIS LITTLE AREA THAT WE HAVE IN LOS ANGELES. IT'S VERY SPECIAL TO HER.

RICHARD MONTOYA>> IT'S AN URBAN EXCAVATION AND WHEN THE CITY DECIDES TO ERASE A NEIGHBORHOOD, WE OUGHT TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO GO BACK NOT WITH LOFTY IDEAS, BUT JUST GO BACK AND SCRAPE BACK THE DIRT A LITTLE BIT AND WHO KNOWS WHAT YOU'LL FIND UNDER THE SHORTSTOP?

TONI GUINYARD>> A DIFFERENT VIEW OF LOS ANGELES.

HERBERT SEGUENZA>> OH, YOU CAN TAKE THAT ONE TO THE BANK (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> TONI GUINYARD JOINS US NOW. THIS IS A BIT OF A THROWBACK TO LOS ANGELES HISTORY, BUT HOW IS THE AUDIENCE RESPONDING TO THIS?

TONI GUINYARD>> IT WAS INTERESTING WATCHING THE PEOPLE IN THE MARK TAPER FORUM WATCHING THIS PERFORMANCE. SOME PEOPLE FOUND IT VERY HUMOROUS. OTHERS SAT VERY STOICALLY LISTENING AND WATCHING AS IF THEY WERE WATCHING A TEACHER TEACH A HISTORY LESSON.

VAL>> WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT IT'S NOT ROMANTICIZING OR SIMPLIFYING THIS STORY BECAUSE, IN FACT, AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE WERE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE WHO SAW IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR BETTER HOUSING.

TONI GUINYARD>> YOU BET, AND THAT'S WHAT CULTURE CLASH WANTS TO DO. IT WANTS TO SHOW ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE OF ONE GROUP AND ONE NEIGHBORHOOD, YOU DON'T SHARE THE SAME OPINIONS. YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO.

JESS>> AND THEY ALSO PLAYED PART OF IT FOR LAUGHS TOO?

TONI GUINYARD>> OH, ABSOLUTELY. PEOPLE WERE LAUGHING. THERE IS SOME HUMOR LACED THROUGHOUT THIS.

VAL>> GREAT CHAPTER IN HISTORY. I'M SO GLAD THAT WE'RE REVISITING IN A FRESH LIGHT. TONI GUINYARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, A SPECIAL GOODBYE TO A PERSON WHO HAS CHANGED KCET, LOS ANGELES AND TELEVISION NEWS. OUR OWN JESS MARLOW IS RETIRING.

>> THEY SAY THE CAMERA NEVER LIES. AFTER A WHILE, IF YOU'RE A PHONY, THEY AUDIENCE FIGURES IT OUT. NOT WITH JESS. JESS IS THE SAME TERRIFIC PERSON OFF-CAMERA AND ON-CAMERA AND I THINK AUDIENCES REALIZE THAT HE'S THE REAL THING.

JESS>> IN THE EARLY 90'S, THE UNITED STATES SPENT MILLIONS TO ARM AND TRAIN AFGHAN SOLDIERS WHO WERE FIGHTING TO OUST THE SOVIETS. MUCH TO OUR DISMAY, THOSE REBELS EVOLVED INTO THE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS, TALIBAN. BUT WHAT MOST AMERICANS DON'T REALIZE IS THE SCOPE OR THE COST OF THAT COVERT OPERATION.

VAL>> WELL, NOW A FORMER "60 MINUTES" PRODUCER HAS REVEALED THE TRUE DIMENSIONS OF THE AFGHAN WAR. HIS BOOK IS CALLED "CHARLIE WILSON'S WAR" -- WE'LL EXPLAIN IN A MOMENT WHO THAT IS -- "THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF THE LARGEST COVERT OPERATION IN HISTORY, THE ARMING OF THE MUJAHIDEEN" BY GEORGE CRILE, AND GEORGE IS WITH US NOW TO EXPLAIN.

JESS>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SURPRISES ME, GIVEN YOUR BACKGROUND WITH "60 MINUTES", IS THAT YOU'VE CHOSEN THE PRINTED WORD TO TELL THIS STORY. WAS IT NOT TOLD ON TELEVISION?

GEORGE CRILE>> WE TOLD A ROARING GOOD FASCINATING STORY OF THIS COLORFUL CONGRESSMAN GOING RIGHT INTO THE WAR ZONE WITH ALL OF THE MUJAHIDEEN HONORING HIM RIGHT AS THE RUSSIANS WERE LEAVING. CLEARLY AT THE TIME, I THOUGHT HE WAS AMAZING AND INFLUENTIAL WITH THE CIA. HE HAD DONE A LOT TO HELP FUND IT, BUT I HAD NO IDEA WHAT HE HAD ACTUALLY DONE.

VAL>> NOW EXPLAIN WHO THIS PERSON IS BECAUSE HE'S IN THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK AND YET MOST OF US NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THIS FELLOW. SO WHO IS HE AND TELL US ABOUT HIM.

GEORGE CRILE>> HE'S A MAN WHO HAS CHANGED THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE OF OUR TIME AND I THINK HE'LL PROBABLY END UP BEING A LEGEND. HE'S A TEXAN RIGHT OUT OF THE TALL TEXAS STORIES OF THE ALAMO AND HE --

VAL>> -- A CONGRESSMAN?

GEORGE CRILE>> HE WAS A CONGRESSMAN AND HE WAS KNOWN MOSTLY DURING HIS MANY YEARS ON THE HILL AS THE WILDEST MAN IN CONGRESS, BAR NONE.

VAL>> HE WAS WILD. HOT TUBS AND WOMEN AND WHATNOT.

GEORGE CRILE>> EVERY KIND OF PETTY SCANDAL YOU COULD CONCEIVE OF, BUT HE WAS ALSO PROBABLY THE BEST BACKROOM OPERATOR YOU'VE EVER SEEN. HE USED THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE, THE PEOPLE THAT DECIDE HOW MUCH MONEY DIFFERENT AGENCIES OF THE GOVERNMENT WILL GET, HE USED HIS LONG-STANDING POSITION ON THE SUBCOMMITTEE THAT FUNDS THE PENTAGON AND THE CIA TO ESSENTIALLY BLACKJACK THE CIA INTO A WAR THEY DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT. IN THE END, HE ENDED UP BEING THE SPONSOR OF THE GREATEST JIHAD IN MODERN HISTORY, WHICH IS THE AFGHAN WAR.

VAL>> HE'S ALMOST SINGLE-HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR FUNNELING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS EVENTUALLY INTO AFGHANISTAN TO SUPPORT THE SOLDIERS WHO WERE KICKING OUT THE SOVIETS WHO THEN, IN TURN, EVOLVED INTO OUR NUMBER ONE ENEMY?

GEORGE CRILE>> WITHOUT CHARLIE WILSON, THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN -- RUSSIAN WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN ITS VIETNAM IN AFGHANISTAN. THE UNITED STATES WOULD NOT HAVE FUNDED A JIHAD. BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT WE FAILED TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT SECRET VICTORY WITH SOME KIND OF A MARSHALL PLAN IN AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE WE ALLOWED THIS FESTERING SORE TO FORM AND ALL OF THESE ARAB AND MUSLIM VOLUNTEERS LIKE BIN LADEN TO FIND A PLACE TO RUN ABOUT AND PURCHASE A PLACE TO HAVE A SAFE HAVEN, WE PAID A BIG PRICE. THERE ARE ALWAYS UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES TO ANY HUGE OPERATION.

JESS>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT IT BEING A SECRET WAR. ONE OF THE REASONS, I SUPPOSE, IS BECAUSE THE CIA WAS NOT ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHERE THAT MONEY WAS GOING?

GEORGE CRILE>> WELL, IT WAS A SECRET WAR BECAUSE IT WAS A CIA OPERATION AND OSTENSIBLY THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REVEALED EVER.

JESS>> NOR THEIR BUDGET.

GEORGE CRILE>> NOR THEIR BUDGET. BUT IT REALLY MANAGED TO ESCAPE ATTENTION BECAUSE NOBODY THOUGHT THE AFGHANS COULD DEFEAT A MODERN SUPERPOWER, THE RED ARMY, THE INVINCIBLE RED ARMY. SO EVEN THOUGH ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY STARTED POURING IN WHEN WILSON USED HIS COMMITTEE POSITION TO JUST THROW MONEY AT THE CIA, THERE WERE NO COMPLAINTS BECAUSE PEOPLE FELT SORRY FOR THE AFGHANS AND THEY NEVER THOUGHT THAT IT WAS A BAD CAUSE OR THAT IT COULD GO ANYWHERE.

JESS>> WAS THIS AS SIGNIFICANT AS THE FALL OF THE WALL IN BERLIN?

GEORGE CRILE>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT WAS A CRITICAL TRIGGERING MECHANISM THAT BEGAN THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET EMPIRE. THE BERLIN WALL FELL JUST A FEW MONTHS AFTERWARD AND THE MESSAGE WENT OUT EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE SOVIET EMPIRE THAT, FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE RED ARMY WAS NOT INVINCIBLE, THAT PEOPLE, IF THEY WERE WILLING TO PAY THE PRICE, COULD STAND UP AND THEY COULD BREAK AWAY. SO IT HAD THIS ONE MAN AND HIS, YOU KNOW, GRAND BIZARRE CONSPIRACY WHICH ULTIMATELY HE FORCED A RELUCTANT CIA INTO THIS OPERATION. HE CAUSED THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION WHICH WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TO SUDDENLY FIND THEMSELVES WITH THIS FANTASTIC REAGAN DOCTRINE VEHICLE.

JESS>> CHARLIE WILSON HAD SOME HELP, ACCORDING TO YOUR STORY, A WOMAN INELEGANTLY REFERRED TO AS "BUCKETS".

GEORGE CRILE>> WELL, "BUCKETS" WAS ONE OF THE PERIPHERAL CHARACTERS. HER BEST FRIEND WAS A STUNNING, ALMOST INEXPLICABLE FANTASY CREATURE WHO WAS REAL, A SOCIAL LIONESS IN HOUSTON, TEXAS WHO WAS A FIERCE ANTI-COMMUNIST MEMBER OF THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY WHO HAD THE ZANY IDEA RIGHT WHEN THE RUSSIANS INVADED THAT, IF SHE COULD JUST PUT TOGETHER THE THREE MOST TRUE LOSERS OF THAT TIME AS FAR AS THE UNITED STATES WAS CONCERNED, THE AFGHANS WHO WERE BEING MAULED, THEIR SHEPHERDS AND TRIBESMEN, THIS DICTATOR OF PAKISTAN WHO SHE LOVED AND SHE WAS THE HONORARY COUNSEL TO PAKISTAN AND THIS CHARLIE WILSON, A CONGRESSMAN WHO SHE HAD SEEN SO INFLUENTIAL IN SUPPORTING THE INDEPENDENT OIL INTERESTS, SHE FELT THAT IF SHE COULD JUST GET HIM INTO THE FRAY AND COMBINE THEM ALL, THEY WERE GOING TO SOMEHOW COALESCE INTO A MIGHTY FORCE THAT WOULD JUST ATTACK THE SOVIETS IN THEIR ACHILLES HEEL. SO SHE ACTUALLY DID IT, PUT THEM TOGETHER, WALKED OUT AND THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW, BILLIONS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF WEAPONS OF EVERY CONCEIVABLE SORT GOING ACROSS THE HINDU KUSH ON THE BACKS OF CAMELS, MULES AND A LOT OF TENNESSEE MULES TOO.

JESS>> INCREDIBLE STORY.

VAL>> AND HISTORY CHANGED. I WISH WE COULD TALK WITH YOU MORE ABOUT THIS, BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH, GEORGE CRILE. AGAIN, THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK IS "CHARLIE WILSON'S WAR: THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF THE LARGEST COVERT OPERATION IN HISTORY, THE ARMING OF THE MUJAHIDEEN". THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

GEORGE CRILE>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

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JESS>> WATER STRAIGHT FROM THE TAP LOST FAVOR BECAUSE OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS. NOW THE BOTTLED WATER THAT'S ON EVERYONE'S LIPS MAY BE PART OF THE PROBLEM. THAT'S THE TOPIC OF TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT MORRISON>> HEY, YOU! YEAH, YOU, THE CALIFORNIA COOLSTER, THE LEAN GREEN ENVIRONMENTAL MACHINE! MISTER SAVE THE WHALES AND THE BAY AND THE REDWOODS! WHAT'S THAT IN YOUR HAND? A BOTTLE OF WATER. HOW WONDERFUL. WITH ALL YOU DO, YOU KEEP HYDRATED TOO? PITY YOU'RE RUINING THE EARTH AT THE SAME TIME. YEAH, YOU. EVERY TIME YOU TOSS ONE OF THESE INTO THE TRASH, YOU'RE SCREWING UP THE LANDFILLS, YOU'RE POLLUTING THE AIR AND YOU'RE LETTING THE WORLD'S OIL PRODUCERS LEAD YOU AROUND BY THE NOSE, ALL BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT RECYCLING YOUR WATER BOTTLES.

AS WITH ALUMINUM CANS, YOU'VE BEEN PAYING A REDEMPTION VALUE ON PLASTIC BOTTLES FOR YEARS, TWO AND A HALF CENTS FOR A LITTLE ONE, A NICKEL FOR THE LARGER SIZE. BUT A STATE REPORT NOW SAYS THAT, RATHER THAN RECYCLING THEM, CALIFORNIANS THROW AWAY THREE MILLION WATER BOTTLES A DAY, MORE THAN A BILLION A YEAR, ENOUGH TO RECYCLE INTO SIXTEEN MILLION SWEATERS OR SEVENTY-FOUR MILLION SQUARE FEET OF CARPETING. AT THIS RATE, IN FIVE YEARS, WE CAN PAVE THE ENTIRE COAST SIX INCHES DEEP IN WATER BOTTLES.

APART FROM THE MESS AND THE WASTE AND THE POLLUTION, THERE IS THIS CONSIDERATION: TO MAKE PLASTIC, YOU NEED OIL. TO GET OIL, YOU NEED TO DRILL OR TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE WHO DO. THE RECENT CAMPAIGN AGAINST SPORTS UTILITY VEHICLES CHARACTERIZED THEM AS UNPATRIOTIC GAS GUZZLERS FORCING US TO MAKE BEDFELLOWS OF ENEMIES AND PERHAPS EVEN TERRORISTS. THROWING AWAY RECYCLABLE PLASTICS DOES THE SAME.

NOW SOME STATE LEGISLATORS WANT TO DOUBLE THE BOTTLE REFUND TO GET US TO RECYCLE OR TO HAVE THE MONEY WHEN WE CLEAN UP THE MESS WHEN WE DON'T. CITY LEGISLATORS SHOULD PROVIDE RECYCLING BINS FOR APARTMENT DWELLERS AND NOT JUST HOMEOWNERS TOO. BUT THIS BATTLE CAN'T ONLY BE ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS. IT HAS TO BE ABOUT HEARTS AND MINDS. MAKE PEOPLE FEEL PROFLIGATE. TELL THEM THAT THROWING AWAY ONE PLASTIC BOTTLE IS LIKE THROWING AWAY A NICKEL. MAKE THEM FEEL GUILTY. EVERY PLASTIC BOTTLE THEY TOSS STEALS A BREATH OF AIR, AN INCH OF OPEN SPACE, FROM THEIR CHILDREN'S FUTURE.

PUT OUT THE SAME MESSAGE FOR PLASTIC BOTTLES AS FOR RECYCLING ALUMINUM CANS. TO MAKE ALUMINUM, YOU NEED A MINERAL CALLED BAUXITE AND, TO GET BAUXITE, YOU HAVE TO DESTROY TROPICAL RAINFORESTS. JUST AS EVERY RECYCLED COKE CAN MEANS A TREE OR A BIRD OR A TROPICAL CREATURE SAVED, EVERY RECYCLED ARROWHEAD WATER BOTTLE MEANS OIL THAT STAYS IN THE GROUND FROM SAUDI ARABIA TO THE ARCTIC NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE. AND HOW ABOUT THIS, IN TIME FOR JULY THE FOURTH? RECYCLE. IT'S THE RED, WHITE AND BLUE THING TO DO.

VAL>> LIFE IS FILLED WITH BOTH JOY AND PAIN, BUT SELDOM DO THE TWO EXTREMES ARRIVE IN ONE WEEK. BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED TO JOEL SIEGEL, FILM CRITIC FOR "GOOD MORNING AMERICA". HE LEARNED HE WOULD BE A FIRST-TIME FATHER AT AGE FIFTY-FOUR. A FEW DAYS LATER, A DOCTOR TOLD HIM HE HAD STAGE THREE COLO-RECTAL CANCER.

JESS>> THAT WAS FIVE YEARS AGO AND TODAY AFTER CHEMOTHERAPY, RADIATION AND THREE SURGERIES, JOEL SIEGEL IS SHARING HIS STORY WITH HIS SON IN A BOOK CALLED "LESSONS FOR DYLAN: FROM FATHER TO SON".

VAL>> AND JOINING US NOW IS JOEL SIEGEL. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

JOEL SIEGEL>> OH, THANK YOU. I'M GLAD TO BE HERE. TO QUOTE GEORGE BURNS, "I'M GLAD TO BE ANYWHERE" (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> DYLAN IS FIVE YEARS OLD.

JOEL SIEGEL>> JUST TURNED FIVE IN FEBRUARY.

JESS>> WHAT LESSONS WILL YOU LEAVE WITH HIM?

JOEL SIEGEL>> WELL, I HOPE TO LEAVE A LESSON OF JOY, TO APPRECIATE -- SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE I'M A GREETING CARD (LAUGHTER). I DECIDED TO DO THE BOOK BECAUSE I WAS AFRAID I WASN'T GOING TO BE HERE TO TELL HIM THESE THINGS. ONE OF THE FIRST LESSONS IS THE SMOKING LECTURE. YOU KNOW, DON'T SMOKE, DON'T DRINK. I THINK IT'S EASIER WHEN YOU WRITE THOSE THINGS AS I WRITE TO HIM WHEN HE'S ANGELIC-LOOKING AND FOUR AND A HALF THAN WHEN HE'S FOURTEEN AND LOOKS LIKE HE HAS THE DEVIL INSIDE. JUST EASIER TO SAY. ONE OF THE LESSONS IS THE QUESTION --

JESS>> -- YOU'LL BE AROUND FOR THE SEX TALK TOO, WON'T YOU?

JOEL SIEGEL>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, WHEN DYLAN ASKS, "DADDY, WHERE DO BABIES COME FROM?", MY ANSWER IS --

JESS>> -- TALK TO YOUR MOTHER.

JOEL SIEGEL>> YEAH (LAUGHTER).

JESS>> COWARD.

JOEL SIEGEL>> YOU BET (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> THAT'S A VERY SHORT CHAPTER. WELL, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU'VE HAD A LIFE THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IN TELEVISION AND DEALING WITH MOVIES AND SO FORTH. CERTAINLY YOU'VE HAD ACCESS TO THE HOLLYWOOD ROLE. BUT THE ONE THING YOU DON'T WANT YOUR SON TO BE IS AN ACTOR. WHY IS THAT?

JOEL SIEGEL>> THE CHAPTER IS TITLED "DEAR DYLAN, BE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO BE, BUT PLEASE, GOD, DON'T WANT TO BE AN ACTOR". IT'S TOUGH. IT'S PROBABLY THE TOUGHEST JOB THERE IS TO SUCCEED IN. I REALLY DO THINK -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S MERYL STREEP AND THERE'S ROBERT DENIRO AND THERE'S MORGAN FREEMAN. THERE ARE A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SO GREAT. THEY'RE GOING TO BE FOUND. THEY'RE GOING TO BE DISCOVERED. ONE RUNG UNDERNEATH THEM, THERE ARE LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF ACTORS WHO ARE REALLY, REALLY GOOD. SOME WILL MAKE IT, SOME WON'T.

WHETHER THEY MAKE IT OR NOT DEPENDS ON THE WHIM OF A CASTING DIRECTOR. FRED ASTAIRE'S FIRST SCREEN TEST AT PARAMOUNT AND HE FAILED IT. THE TALENT SCOUT WHO WROTE THE SCREEN TEST SAYS "CAN'T SING, CAN'T ACT, CAN DANCE A LITTLE". IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR RKO AND THE SECOND SCREEN TEST, WE'D NEVER KNOW ABOUT FRED ASTAIRE. SO I WANT FOR MY SON I THINK WHAT WE ALL WANT FOR OUR CHILDREN, I WANT HIM TO CONTROL HIS OWN LIFE AND IT'S TOUGH TO BE AN ACTOR AND DO THAT.

JESS>> AS A FILM CRITIC, YOU'VE MADE LIFE COMFORTABLE FOR A FEW ACTORS (LAUGHTER).

JOEL SIEGEL>> (LAUGHTER) ONLY THE ONES WHO DESERVE IT, JESS. I DO HAVE A RULE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I TRY TO BE SENSITIVE ABOUT THAT. I NEVER CRITICIZE ANYONE'S WORK UNLESS THEIR NAME IS ABOVE THE TITLE BECAUSE I FIGURE THEN THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE.

JESS>> LIKE FAIR GAME.

JOEL SIEGEL>> YEP.

VAL>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT WANTING YOUR CHILD TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL HIS LIFE, BUT SOMETHING VERY MUCH OUT OF CONTROL CAME INTO YOUR LIFE AT THE SAME TIME THAT YOUR LIFE --

JOEL SIEGEL>> -- YEAH, I HAVE A LINE IN THE BOOK THAT SAYS "THE LORD GIVETH AND THE LORD TAKETH AWAY, BUT ONLY THE LORD CAN DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME." IT WAS --

VAL>> -- HAD YOU BEEN HEALTHY? WAS IT A TOTAL SHOCK?

JOEL SIEGEL>> YEAH, A COMPLETE SHOCK. I WAS TOTALLY ASYMPTOMATIC. THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH ME. I WENT IN FOR A CHECK --

VAL>> -- YOU FELT FINE?

JOEL SIEGEL>> I FELT GREAT.

JESS>> AND YOU WERE SURPRISED BY THE ANNOUNCEMENT THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE A FATHER TOO.

JOEL SIEGEL>> YES. WELL, WE WENT THROUGH IN VITRO AND ONE OF THE STORIES I SAID WE KNEW IT WAS COMING. TWO STORIES ABOUT THAT THAT I TELL IN THE BOOK, ANN HECHE, WHEN SHE AND ELLEN HAD JUST COME OUT AND THEY TALKED ABOUT MAYBE HAVING CHILDREN, I THINK WHAT EVERYTHING A PARENT DOES, I PROSELYTIZE. I WANT EVERYBODY -- IT'S THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD TO HAVE A CHILD. I TELL ANN HECHE IN THE GREEN ROOM AT "GOOD MORNING AMERICA", THIS IS SOMETHING -- THIS IS NOT FOR AIR, IT'S NOT GOSSIP, BUT IT'S THE GREATEST THING. IF YOU AND ELLEN ARE THINKING ABOUT IT, YOU SHOULD DO IT.

SHE TELLS ME, WELL, IT CAN'T BE A SURPRISE. WE HAVE TO PLAN ON IT. I SAID WE HAD TO PLAN IT TOO. WE WENT THROUGH IN VITRO AND, BECAUSE IT'S THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY, I SAID THAT'S MY DOING. I HAVE A LOW SPERM COUNT. SHE INSTANTLY SAID NOT AS LOW AS ELLEN'S (LAUGHTER). BECAUSE WE WENT THROUGH IN VITRO, I HAVE A PICTURE OF DYLAN WHEN HE IS SIX CELLS OLD. I LOOK AT THAT AND I WRITE ABOUT THAT AND WONDER HOW CAN DYLAN MAKE SENSE OF THAT? THEN I WONDER HOW DID IT KNOW? HOW DID THOSE SIX CELLS KNOW TO BECOME DYLAN AND NOT A TREE OR AN OLDSMOBILE?

JESS>> HE WAS SIX CELLS OLD AND YOU WERE FIFTY-FOUR YEARS OLD.

JOEL SIEGEL>> FIFTY-FOUR YEARS OLD, YEAH.

VAL>> HOW DID DYLAN DEAL WITH THE NEWS OF YOUR CANCER? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN IT TO A KID?

JOEL SIEGEL>> WELL, THAT'S WHY I ENDED UP WRITING THE BOOK BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL HIM. THE THIRD SURGERY -- IT MOVED FROM MY COLON INTO MY LEFT LUNG. I LOST HALF MY LEFT LUNG. THEN INTO MY RIGHT LUNG AND I WAS GOING IN FOR SURGERY. BY THIS TIME, DYLAN WAS THREE AND A HALF. HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT CANCER WAS, BUT HE KNEW THAT DADDY WAS GOING TO BE SICK, DADDY HAD A BOO-BOO, HE WAS GOING TO THE HOSPITAL, HE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO JUMP UP AND DOWN ON ME. I WENT TO THE FOLKS I KNOW WHO WOULD KNOW AT "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" AND WE CHANGED HIS NIGHTTIME READING FROM "GOODNIGHT MOON" TO "GROVER GOES TO THE HOSPITAL" AND "CURIOUS GEORGE GOES TO THE HOSPITAL".

WE GOT HIM A LITTLE DOCTOR'S SUIT SO HE COULD WEAR GREEN SCRUBS AND HE WAS TAKING EVERYBODY'S BLOOD PRESSURE IN UNION SQUARE PARK IN MANHATTAN. HE CAME TO VISIT AND HE UNDERSTOOD AND THE GREAT THING THAT MY WIFE, ENA, DID WAS THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE GONE FOR FIVE DAYS AND THERE'S NO WAY TO KNOW WHETHER A THREE AND A HALF YEAR OLD KID COULD CONCEPTUALIZE FIVE, BUT WE KNEW HE COULD COUNT TO FIVE. SO SHE CUT OUT FIVE CONCENTRIC CIRCLES OUT OF CONSTRUCTION PAPER, LOOKED LIKE THE OLYMPIC SYMBOL. EACH NIGHT BEFORE HE WENT TO SLEEP, SHE CUT ONE OFF SO THAT HE KNEW, WELL, THAT'S ONE DAY GONE, FOUR MORE, TWO DAYS GONE, THREE MORE AND, BY THE LAST ONE, THAT MEANS DADDY'S COMING HOME AND I CAME HOME.

VAL>> THAT'S AMAZING.

JESS>> AND YOU'VE BEEN CANCER-FREE SINCE 2001?

JOEL SIEGEL>> YEAH, IT'S A YEAR AND A HALF. UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S FIVE YEARS BEFORE YOU'RE CURED, SO I HAVE THREE AND A HALF YEARS TO GO. I GET TESTED REGULARLY.

VAL>> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE IN TERMS OF DEALING WITH CANCER? NOT JUST YOUR SON, BUT --

JOEL SIEGEL>> -- BE HONEST. JUST BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF AND BE HONEST WITH YOUR FAMILY. I FOUND OUT THAT THERE WAS COLON CANCER ON MY MOTHER'S SIDE OF THE FAMILY WHEN I WAS IN THE RECOVERY ROOM WAITING AFTER MY FIRST SURGERY. BE HONEST AND BE HONEST WITH YOUR CHILDREN. I GOT, AFTER THE GMA APPEARANCE, MORE THAN A HUNDRED EMAILS FROM PEOPLE WHOSE PARENT HAD LEFT WHEN THEY WERE TOO YOUNG TO KNOW. THEY WERE NOT TOLD. THEY WEREN'T TOLD UNTIL THEY WERE ADULTS WHAT HAPPENED.

JESS>> YOUR BOOK IS OBVIOUSLY AN ACT OF HONESTY TOO, AND OUR THANKS TO JOEL SIEGEL FOR BEING WITH US. AGAIN, THE TITLE OF THAT BOOK IS "LESSONS FOR DYLAN: FROM FATHER TO SON".

VAL>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

JOEL SIEGEL>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> A REMINDER THAT YOU CAN FIND TRANSCRIPTS OR HEAR AUDIO OF RECENT PROGRAMS. JUST GO TO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. BEFORE WE GO, WE WANT TO WISH BOB HOPE A VERY HAPPY ONE-HUNDREDTH BIRTHDAY AND WE LEAVE YOU WITH THE STRAINS OF HIS TRADEMARK SONG, "THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES".

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