7/02/03

LC030702

VAL ZAVALA>> ON THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES --

STUDS TERKEL>> WHAT'S IT LIKE TO BE THE GUY WHO COMES HOME ELEVEN O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING WITH A TOOL CHEST ON HIS SHOULDER? HE'S A GOOD CARPENTER, HE'S LAID OFF AND DOESN'T WORK FOR FIVE YEARS. WHAT'S HE THINKING? WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE KID WHO SEES HIM OR THE WIFE? IT'S THEIR LIVES THAT WE SHOULD CELEBRATE, I THINK.

VAL>> ANOTHER LOOK AT THE REMARKABLE STORIES AND PEOPLE WE'VE ENCOUNTERED OVER OUR DOZEN YEARS ON THE AIR. JOIN US FOR ONE OF OUR FAVORITE SHOWS FROM THE VAULT, NEXT ON A SPECIAL CLASSIC EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATION:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> HUNDREDS OF NOTABLE AUTHORS, CELEBRITIES, INTELLECTUALS AND PUBLIC FIGURES HAVE STOPPED BY OUR STUDIO OVER THE YEARS. MANY OF THEM HAVE LEFT A LASTING IMPRESSION ON OUR VIEWERS AND WE THINK A NUMBER OF THESE INTERVIEWS DESERVE TO BE SEEN AGAIN. SO TONIGHT WE REVISIT ONE OF OUR FAVORITE PEOPLE IN A CLASSIC EPISODE SELECTED FROM THE BEST OF LIFE AND TIMES.

STUDS TERKEL IS ONE OF AMERICA'S MOST CELEBRATED WRITERS. HE IS KNOWN AS THE CHRONICLER OF THE COMMON MAN, EXPLORING THE EVERYDAY LIVES OF WORKING CLASS MEN AND WOMEN. HE IS ALSO A LONG-TIME OBSERVER OF THE ROLE RACE PLAYS IN OUR SOCIETY. TERKEL WAS AN ACTOR, A RADIO PERFORMER, AND HE HELPED PIONEER THE ART OF ORAL HISTORY. PATT MORRISON SPOKE WITH HIM IN 1995 ON THE PUBLICATION OF HIS ACCLAIMED BOOK, "COMING OF AGE".

PATT MORRISON>> WE LIVE IN A CELEBRITY AGE. WHY DO YOU KEEP WRITING BOOKS ABOUT THE ORDINARY GUY WHO'S NOT ON THE COVER OF "PEOPLE" MAGAZINE?

STUDS TERKEL>> I THINK THERE IS VIRGIN TERRITORY, SADLY ENOUGH. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES HAVE NEVER BEEN EXPLORED NOR ASKED WHAT THEY DO ALL DAY OR WHAT THEY DO -- WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO KEEP THE WHEELS OF OUR WHATEVER WE CALL CIVILIZATION GOING FROM YEAR ONE? THESE ANONYMOUS -- WHO BUILT THE PYRAMIDS? MAYBE YOU'D SAY A CELEBRITY. THE PHARAOHS, THEY WERE CELEBRITIES. THEY DIDN'T LIFT A FINGER. MRS. PHARAOH'S NAILS WERE AS IMMACULATELY MANICURED AS ELIZABETH TAYLOR'S. WHO BUILT THE PYRAMIDS? ANONYMOUS MILLIONS, FACES IN THE CROWD.

SO WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? WHAT IS IT LIKE TO LIVE AT A CERTAIN TIME, THE GREAT AMERICAN DEPRESSION, LET'S SAY? WHAT'S IT LIKE TO BE THE GUY WHO COMES AT ELEVEN O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING WITH A TOOL CHEST ON HIS SHOULDER. HE WAS A GOOD CARPENTER. HE'S LAID OFF AND DOESN'T WORK FOR FIVE YEARS. WHAT'S HE THINK OF? WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE KID WHO SEES HIM OR HIS WIFE? IT'S THEIR LIVES THAT WE SHOULD CELEBRATE, I THINK, BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES WHO KEEP THE WHEELS SPINNING. YOU KNOW, CIVILIZATION, A WORD WITHOUT THEM.

PATT MORRISON>> THEY'VE JUSTIFIED THE ATTENTION YOU'VE GIVEN THEM?

STUDS TERKEL>> YES AND NO, BOTH. THEY'RE JUSTIFIED THE ATTENTION IN THAT THEIR LIVES ARE REVEALING OF OUR OWN LIVES AND NOT JUSTIFYING IT -- NO, IT'S JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEIR FRAILTIES ARE THEIRS. ALL OF US HAVE OUR OWN FOIBLES, OUR OWN PREJUDICES AND BIGOTRIES, BUT OVER AND ABOVE THAT, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE. IT'S THAT RESILIENCE THEY HAVE, A CERTAIN KIND OF PRIDE IN BEING WHAT THEY ARE. SOME DON'T HAVE IT AND THAT'S THE SAD PART. SOMETIMES THEY'RE DENIED THEIR OWN HISTORY.

THE YOUNG TODAY, FOR INSTANCE. I KNOW, PATT, YOU WORRY ABOUT THEM, YOU BEING VERY -- WELL, TO ME, YOU'RE A BABY, OF COURSE. BUT THE YOUNG LACK A SENSE OF HISTORY. IT'S EASY TO BLAME THEM, BUT THIS BOOK DOES NOT CONSIST OF CURMUDGEON'S BLAMING THE YOUNG. THEY GRIEVE FOR THE YOUNG. SEE, THEIR OWN LIVES HAVE BEEN FULL. THE PEOPLE IN THIS BOOK, THE HEROES AND HEROINES, HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH SOMETHING OUTSIDE THEMSELVES. COMMUNITY IS A WORD. GRASSROOTS IS A WORD. THEIR LIVES HAVE BEEN FULL. THE MINIMUM AGE IS SEVENTY, OLD AS NINETY-NINE. THEY GRIEVE FOR THE YOUNG WHO HAVE BEEN DENIED HISTORY.

PATT MORRISON>> YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE IN THAT AGE GROUP FROM SEVENTY TO NINETY-NINE, BUT THIS COUNTRY IS VERY AMBIVALENT ABOUT ITS ELDERLY.

STUDS TERKEL>> THIS COUNTRY WORRIES ABOUT AGE. AGE IS NOT SOMETHING IN WHICH YOU GROW GRACEFULLY AND EASILY. IT'S SOMETHING YOU AVOID. REMEMBER THAT HAND LOTION YEARS AGO ON TV? I DON'T WANT TO BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU, BUT THIS IS PUBLIC TV.

PATT MORRISON>> PUBLIC TELEVISION. GO AHEAD (LAUGHTER).

STUDS TERKEL>> THERE WAS A HAND OF AN ELDERLY WOMAN AND THE VOICE-OVER SAYS "AVOID THOSE -- GET THE QUOTE -- UGLY AGE FRECKLES". UGLY AGE, IT IS ENDLESS. NOW BERNARD SHAW WAS A DRAMA CRITIC IN HIS YOUNGER DAYS. HE SAW THE TWO ACTRESSES OF THAT TIME, SARAH BERNHARDT, THE FRENCH, AND ELENORA DUSA, THE ITALIAN. SARAH BERNHARDT USED ALL KINDS OF MAKEUP TO CONCEAL AGE. DUSA USED NO MAKEUP. SHAW SAYS "I PREFER THE ITALIAN BECAUSE HER WRINKLES ARE HER CREDENTIALS OF HUMANITY."

PATT MORRISON>> BUT SHE WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN ON THE "THE TODAY SHOW".

STUDS TERKEL>> SHE WOULDN'T --

PATT MORRISON>> -- YOU DID.

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, NOW, YOU'RE TALKING TO A MAN OF EXPERIENCE (LAUGHTER). YOU ASK A LEADING QUESTION ABOUT ME. I'VE BEEN ON "THE TODAY SHOW" SINCE THE YEAR ONE FOR EVERY NEW BOOK. I WAS ALWAYS ON IT, INVITED ON IT, UNTIL THIS ONE THAT CONCERNS OLD AGE AND MY AGE WHICH IS EIGHTY-THREE. I'M A TITANIC BABY. I KNOW YOU'VE DONE RESEARCH ON THE TITANIC.

PATT MORRISON>> BORN 1912.

STUDS TERKEL>> SO THIS TIME, I ASSUMED I'D BE ON IT. I WAS TOLD THAT THE WUNDERKIND PRODUCER, WHO'S ABOUT TWENTY-EIGHT OR TWENTY-NINE, SAYS, OH, NO, NO, NO. HE USED THE EXCUSE OF TOO MANY BOOKS AND, AFTER ALL, THE AGE THEY SEEK IS, WHAT, EIGHTEEN TO -- WHO ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THEIR LIVES? EIGHTEEN TO, WHAT, THIRTY-FIVE? WELL, THIRTY-FIVE IS PRETTY OLD. THAT'S INTERESTING. NOW IF I WERE OF A MORE SUSPICIOUS NATURE, I THINK MY AGE AND THE SUBJECT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. NO, NOT REALLY, MAYBE THE CROTCHET OF AN OLD GEEZER.

PATT MORRISON>> YOU HAVE ALMOST INVENTED THIS ORAL HISTORY GENRE OR CERTAINLY REVIVED IT IN OUR TIMES.

STUDS TERKEL>> NOW I'VE GOT TO CORRECT THAT. SEE, I'M GIVEN CREDIT FOR THIS AND I COULD SAY, OH YEAH --

PATT MORRISON>> -- POPULARIZE. HOW'S THAT?

STUDS TERKEL>> WHEREAS, ORAL HISTORY PRECEDED GUTTENBERG AND THE PRINTING PRESS BY CENTURIES. THERE WERE STORYTELLERS. WHEN ALEX HALEY WROTE "ROOTS", HE WENT BACK TO THE LAND OF HIS ANCESTORS IN WEST AFRICA AND HE MET THESE STORYTELLERS CALLED GRIOTS AND IT WENT FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION. AS THEY TOLD THE STORIES, THE KIDS KNEW THEIR HISTORY. SO WHAT I DO IS THE SAME THING, BUT I HAVE A LITTLE TAPE RECORDER IN MY HAND. THAT'S THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THAT'S PART OF THE OLD, OLD TRADITIONS.

PATT MORRISON>> DO YOU ALWAYS GET IT RIGHT WITH THE TAPE RECORDER?

STUDS TERKEL>> NO. THE IRONY OF THE WHOLE THING, I'M SO FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS, I'M SO FULL OF BALONEY, I CONDEMN TECHNOLOGY SOMETIMES AND I'LL TELL YOU MY THOUGHTS ABOUT A COMPUTER IN A MOMENT IF WE HAVE TIME. BUT HERE I AM -- I'M JUST LEARNING TO USE THE TYPEWRITER AND I CAN'T DRIVE A CAR, BUT I GOT THIS TAPE RECORDER AND I GOOF UP SO MANY TIMES WITH IT. I LOST MARTHA GRAHAM, I LOST MICHAEL REDGRAVE. I ALMOST LOST BERTRAND RUSSELL WHEN I VISITED HIM IN NORTH WALES. IF I DID, THEN I'D HAVE PUT MY HEAD IN THE OVEN (LAUGHTER).

I GOOF UP, BUT THAT'S ALSO AN ASSET. SOMETIMES YOU INTERVIEW THOSE YOU'D CALL ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO'VE NEVER BEEN ASKED ABOUT THEIR LIVES BEFORE. INSTEAD OF BEING A BIG SHOT FROM A TV STATION, MOUNT OLYMPUS, I'M THE GOOFBALL. I MEAN, I'M A GUY WHO SCREWS THINGS UP. THEY KNOW MORE ABOUT HOW TO PRESS THE BUTTON THAN I DO, SO SOMETIMES BEFORE CASSETTES DURING THE REEL-TO-REEL, THEY SAY, LOOK, IT'S NOT MOVING. I SAY, OH, MY GOD, I FORGOT TO TURN ON THE ON BUTTON, SO THEY HELP ME. AND WHEN THEY HELP ME, THEY FEEL NEEDED BY ME AND TO FEEL NEEDED IS PRETTY IMPORTANT IN A PERSON'S LIFE.

PATT MORRISON>> GIVEN THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE SPAN OF FIFTY-SOME YEARS IN AMERICAN HISTORY, DO YOU THINK AMERICANS FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THEMSELVES AND THEIR COUNTRY NOW THAN THEY DID FORTY OR FIFTY YEARS AGO?

STUDS TERKEL>> YEAH, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. YOU SEE, WE'RE FIVE YEARS AWAY FROM A NEW MILLENNIUM. THINK ABOUT IT. THIS CENTURY AND THESE PEOPLE ARE THE STORYTELLERS OF THE CENTURY BECAUSE WHO BETTER TO TELL THE STORY THAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BORNE WITNESS TO IT, WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE GREAT DEPRESSION, WORLD WAR II, THE COLD WAR, MCCARTHY, THE SIXTIES, AND THE COMPUTER? WHO BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED IT, NOT SOMEONE OFFERING A THIRTY-SECOND SOUND BITE?

SO DO WE FEEL -- FOR ONE THING, WE HAVE NO SENSE OF HISTORY, ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, AND NOW SOMETHING'S GONE COCK-EYED. YOU KNOW WHAT THE YOUNG KIDS ARE SAYING TODAY -- AND THESE PEOPLE IN MY BOOK POINT THIS OUT ELOQUENTLY -- YOUNG KIDS ARE SAYING I'M NOT GOING TO BE AS WELL OFF AS MY OLD MAN, WHICH IS A REVERSAL OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, ISN'T IT? IT WAS ALWAYS COMING TO THE NEW LAND, BETTER FOR ME, FAR BETTER FOR MY KIDS. KIDS SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, SOMETHING'S GONE COCK-EYED WITH IT.

PATT MORRISON>> WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR THAT?

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, WHAT ACCOUNTS FOR IT IS A LACK OF A SENSE OF HISTORY, NOT LEARNING FROM THE PAST. EXAMPLE: THE GREAT DEPRESSION. WE'RE TOLD ABOUT DYSFUNCTIONAL AMERICAN FAMILIES. THEY MEAN, OF COURSE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN. PEOPLE ON WELFARE, LAZY BUMS. THE WORD IN THE THIRTIES WITH MILLIONS UNEMPLOYED WAS RELIEF, OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE AND THERE WAS A FATHERLESS FAMILY, MILLIONS OF THEM.

THE GUY COMES HOME WITH A TOOL CHEST ON HIS SHOULDER AND HE'S NOT WORKING FIVE YEARS, SELF-ESTEEM GONE, HE'S FURIOUS, DISGUSTED, GETS DRUNK, LEAVES HOME OUT OF SHAME. THERE WERE MILLIONS OF "DYSFUNCTIONAL" FAMILIES THEN. THIS ASPECT WE FORGOT ABOUT. YOU KNOW, SOME OF THOSE CONDEMNED BIG GOVERNMENT WHEN IT CONCERNS HEALTH AND WELFARE, THE VERY ONES WHOSE BUTTS WERE SAVED BY THE NEW DEAL, BY BIG GOVERNMENT. KENNETH GALBRAITH FROM THE BOOK POINTS THAT OUT VERY IRONICALLY.

PATT MORRISON>> ARE YOU DISCOURAGED BY THE THINGS THAT DIVIDE US? YOU WROTE IN "THE GREAT DIVIDE" ABOUT POLITICS AND RELIGION AND THE THINGS THAT SEEM TO FORM A WEDGE CONSTANTLY BETWEEN GROUPS OF AMERICANS, RACE ISSUES --

STUDS TERKEL>> -- IT'S BOTH DISCOURAGING AND MAYBE NOT OF HOPE, BUT OF SOMETHING. THE ISSUES AT LEAST ARE OUT IN THE OPEN IN HORRIBLE WAYS TOO. BEFORE IT WAS VERY DEEP. "THE INVISIBLE MAN" WAS A NOVEL WRITTEN BY RALPH ELLISON IN 1950. THAT MAN, THAT WOMAN OF COLOR, IS NO LONGER INVISIBLE. HOWEVER, HE'S SOMETHING ELSE. OF COURSE, RACE IS ONE OF THE UNDERLYING ISSUES. IF I COULD CONTINUE WITH THE MATTER OF RACE, OFTEN THE ASSOCIATION OF PEOPLE ON WELFARE AND STREET CRIME IS THE YOUNG BLACK MALE. THAT'S THE EUPHEMISM WE USE.

WELL, THINK ABOUT IT. THERE'S A HOTEL IN CHICAGO ABOUT FIVE YEARS OLD, THE SHERATON, ALONG THE LAKEFRONT. WHEN THAT WAS NEAR COMPLETION, WORD GOT OUT THAT ONE THOUSAND JOBS WERE AVAILABLE. THE NEXT DAY ON THAT LAKEFRONT, BITTER COLD CHICAGO LAKEFRONT, FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE SHOWED UP AT 5:30 IN THE MORNING, OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK MALE, FOR JOBS PAYING VERY MODESTLY. YOU TELLING ME THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK? OF COURSE, THEY DO. SO FOUR THOUSAND DON'T GET THE JOB, RIGHT? WHERE DO THE FOUR THOUSAND GO? TO FAMILIAR HAUNTS, THE STREET CORNER WHERE HE'S KNOWN.

THERE'S ENERGY THERE THAT COULD GO INTO NINE-TO-FIVE, A BUCK OR TWO IN THE POCKET, SELF-ESTEEM, A FAMILY. INSTEAD, THIS FRUSTRATION IS HELD IN, THERE'S A LASHING OUT AND IT CAN'T BE EXPRESSED SOCIALLY. IT'S ANTI-SOCIAL. BLACK ON BLACK MOSTLY, OF COURSE, AND THE OCCASIONAL WHITE SMACKED AROUND. SO THAT'S STREET CRIME AND THE SOLUTION OF ADMINISTRATION AND ANTI-ADMINISTRATION IS, WELL, PRISONS, BY GOD. THREE STRIKES AND YOU'RE OUT. SO THE OBVIOUS THING IS JOBS, FULL EMPLOYMENT. I MEAN, ARE WE IDIOTS? PERHAPS WE HAVE BECOME THAT ZOMBIE-ESQUE IN NOT LEARNING ANYTHING OF THE PAST.

PATT MORRISON>> DO YOU SENSE A HOPELESSNESS?

STUDS TERKEL>> NO. YOU SEE, THAT'S IT. NEVER SAY HOPELESSNESS. AM I LESS OPTIMISTIC? YEAH, I LOOK AT THE SUNNY SIDE, BUT HOPEFUL. THERE'S A WOMAN IN THE BOOK, JESSIE DE LA CRUZ. WE HAVE A SPANISH PHRASE "HOPE DIES LAST". WITHOUT HOPE, THERE'S NOTHING. THERE HAS TO BE HOPE, BUT HOPE ALONE WON'T DO IT.

PATT MORRISON>> OF THE HUNDREDS AND MAYBE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE YOU'VE INTERVIEWED, IS THERE ANYONE YOU HAVEN'T LIKED?

STUDS TERKEL>> OH, YEAH. DURING THE HARD TIMES OF THE DEPRESSION, A SOCIETY PHOTOGRAPHER, NOW LONG GONE, VERY CELEBRATED NAME OF GERHARD ZERBES. I AM THE MAN WHO INVENTED SOCIETY PHOTOGRAPHY. I COVER THOSE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE, THOSE WEALTHY PEOPLE, WHOM WE ALL ADMIRE SO MUCH AND WANT TO BE LIKE, AND THOSE WHO ARE NOT LIKE THEM SIMPLY ARE JEALOUS AND ENVIOUS. WE ALL DISCUSS THE LOVELY THINGS, NEVER UGLY THINGS, DURING THE DEPRESSION. WE DON'T EVEN DISCUSS, AS HE PUT IT, THE NEGRO QUESTION. OH, NO, ALWAYS KEEP -- WAS THERE POVERTY? NO, THERE WAS NO POVERTY IN THE DEPRESSION. OH, NOW AND THEN, YOU'D TOSS A FELLOW, A BEGGAR, A HALF A BUCK AND HE WALKS INTO HIS CADILLAC. WELL, HE, OF COURSE, YOU WANT TO STRANGLE --

PATT MORRISON>> -- (LAUGHTER) BUT YOU RESTRAINED YOURSELF.

STUDS TERKEL>> I'VE GOT TO GET HIM DOWN. YOU SEE, THE IMPORTANT THING IS TO GET DOWN WHAT IS TRUE AT THAT MOMENT.

PATT MORRISON>> ONE PERSON OUT OF ALL THOSE AND YOU WANTED TO STRANGLE HIM.

STUDS TERKEL>> NO, HE'S ONE THAT COMES TO MIND. THERE ARE SEVERAL OTHERS. BUT IN THE MAIN, PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED ARE NOT THAT SORT OF PEOPLE. THEY'RE JUST ORDINARY, EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHO JUST WORK THROUGH THE DAY. WHEN I WALK THROUGH THE CORRIDORS OF THE BUILDING WHERE I WORK IN CHICAGO, THERE ARE TWO GUYS IN THE VALET SHOP. I ALWAYS HOLLER OUT, AND NOT FOR ME, "ANOTHER DAY, ANOTHER TRIUMPH". NOW I DON'T HAVE TO HOLLER IT OUT. I JUST GO, "ANOTHER DAY" AND THEY CALL BACK, "ANOTHER TRIUMPH".

PATT MORRISON>> IF THERE IS ANY FAULT THAT'S BEEN FOUND OF YOUR WORK, IT'S THAT PEOPLE HAVE CALLED IT SENTIMENTAL AND POPULIST AND LIBERAL. ARE THEY RIGHT?

STUDS TERKEL>> I'M SENTIMENTAL. SENTIMENT, IN THE BEST SENSE OF THE WORD, FEELING SOMETHING. THE PERSONAL TOUCH SEEMS TO BE DISAPPEARING. LIBERAL? WELL, I THINK I'M MORE THAN THAT. THESE WORDS, BY THE WAY, LIBERAL, CONSERVATIVE, HAVE NO MEANING. ISSUES DO. JOBS. NATIONAL HEALTH. I CALL MYSELF, JUST TO FOOL AROUND WITH THE DICTIONARY, A RADICAL CONSERVATIVE.

RADICAL? GET IN YOUR DICTIONARY. GETTING AT THE ROOT OF THINGS. I WANT TO GET TO THE ROOT OF THINGS. CONSERVATIVE? I WANT TO CONSERVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE CONSTITUTION, THE BILL OF RIGHTS. I WANT TO CONSERVE FRESH AIR AND CLEAN WATER AGAINST THE PREDATORS, CORPORATE AND MILITARY, WHO TRY TO POISON US ALL. AND I WANT TO CONSERVE WHATEVER LITTLE SANITY WE HAVE LEFT, SO I'M A RADICAL CONSERVATIVE. I'M HORSING AROUND NOW, JUST INDICATING HOW MEANINGLESS THESE PHRASES ARE.

PATT MORRISON>> MOST OF THE PEOPLE YOU TALKED TO ALSO FIND THEMSELVES PULLING AWAY FROM LABELS, DISLIKING LABELS, AND ATTACHING THEMSELVES TO THEIR OWN IDEAS RATHER THAN --

STUDS TERKEL>> -- I HOPE SO. I HOPE PEOPLE DO PULL AWAY FROM LABELS. YOU KNOW, THE "L" WORD HAS BECOME A BAD WORD. THE "L" WORD REPLACED WHAT WORD OF THE FIFTIES? THE "C" WORD, COMMIE. THE LIBERALS NOW ARE COMMIES. ONCE YOU'RE SMACKING SOMEONE WITH A LABEL, SOMEONE WHO QUESTIONS WHAT MAY BE COCK-EYED -- I'M NOT REAL LIBERAL. BACK IN THE EARLY FIFTIES, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE JUSTICE IN THE WORLD. I'M NOT A COMMUNIST, YOU UNDERSTAND, BUT I THINK THERE SHOULD BE MORE JUSTICE IN THE WORLD. NOW YOU SAY I'M NOT A LIBERAL. WHY NOT? WELL, WHY HAVE ANY LABEL? WHY NOT SAY I AM FOR JUSTICE IN THE WORLD? I'M FOR JOBS. I THINK EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE A CRACK IN THE RACE OF LIFE, AN EQUAL CRACK AT IT. I THINK TOO FEW HAVE TOO MUCH AND TOO MANY HAVE TOO LITTLE, SO WHAT DOES THAT MAKE ME? A TROUBLEMAKER, THAT'S WHAT I AM (LAUGHTER).

PATT MORRISON>> (LAUGHTER) THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THAT PARTY, I THINK, THE TROUBLEMAKER PARTY.

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, WE GOT TO FORM A TROUBLEMAKERS' PARTY. THAT'S OUR THIRD PARTY.

PATT MORRISON>> APART FROM THE DIVISIONS OF WEALTH AND INCOME IN THE COUNTRY WHICH HAVE GOTTEN MORE PROFOUND OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, THERE IS ALMOST A CULTURAL DIVIDE. LITERACY DROPS. WHAT PASSES FOR INFORMATION IS IN FACT JUST KIND OF FLUFF OFTENTIMES. HOW DO YOU SEE THE STATE OF CULTURE IN THIS COUNTRY? I MEAN, YOU'VE DONE TELEVISION, YOU'VE DONE RADIO AND THERE IS CERTAINLY PLENTY OF EACH AROUND. HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT?

STUDS TERKEL>> AND, BY THE WAY, IT'S EASY TO BLAME TV. TV AS A MEDIA IS NEUTRAL AND IT COULD BE EXCITING, COULD BE. DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, IT WAS PRETTY GOOD. YOU SAW FOR THE FIRST TIME PEOPLE YOU DIDN'T KNOW SAW BEAU CONNOR'S DOGS LEAPING AT WOMEN AND KIDS. WELL, THAT PLAYED A ROLE, A BIG ROLE, BUT TV GENERALLY PLAYS ANOTHER KIND OF ROLE. IT'S TO SELL. EIGHTEEN, THIRTY-FIVE, WRINKLES ARE UGLY, STREET CRIME IS THAT, THIRTY SECOND SOUND BITES. YOU SEE, IT'S USED TO SELL.

IN THAT SENSE, IT DEMEANS CONVERSATION, IT DEMEANS THOUGHT. WE GOT ACCUSTOMED TO LISTENING TO THE PUNDIT ON TV WHO KNOWS AS MUCH AS WHO KNOWS WHAT, LITTLE, OF COURSE, AND WE ACCEPT HIM. BUT WORSE THAN THAT, TRIVIA BECOMES NEWS. YOU WATCH THE SIX O'CLOCK NEWS, HALF OF IT MAY BE -- I LIKE BASEBALL VERY MUCH TO WATCH, BUT NOT THAT SPORTS BECOMES HALF. NEWS ABOUT CELEBRITIES BECOMES IT. "ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT" IS NOW A NEWS SHOW. SO ONCE THE CONVERSATION BECOMES TRIVIALIZED, WE GET OUT OF USE WHEN DISCUSSING WHAT COULD BE SERIOUS IN OUR VERY LIVES, THE MEANING OF OUR LIVES.

PATT MORRISON>> HOW DID THAT COME TO PASS? WAS IT THE ARBITERS OF CULTURE WHO DID IT OR WAS IT THE SORT OF PEOPLE YOU WRITE ABOUT WHO JUST WANT TO BE ENTERTAINED, WHO JUST WANT TO FORGET THEIR TROUBLES FOR A WHILE?

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, WE'RE CONDITIONED TO THIS. I DON'T SAY -- PEOPLE ARE NOT DUMB. PEOPLE CAN BE, I THINK, POSSIBLE OF POSSIBLE. YOU KNOW, ORDINARY PEOPLE I'VE KNOWN TO DO EXTRAORDINARY THINGS IN EMERGENCIES. WE KNOW THAT. IF WE'RE CONDITIONED -- ACTUALLY, WHO RUNS -- I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC TV NOW. THAT HAS ITS OWN PROBLEMS -- WHO RUNS THE MEDIA, WHETHER IT BE PRINT, TV OR RADIO? THEY PRETTY MUCH DETERMINE IT.

WE HAVE RIGHT NOW ONE OPINION EXPRESSED PRETTY MUCH OVERWHELMINGLY ON THE TALK SHOWS. RUSH AND COMPANY, RIGHT? SOMEONE COMES ALONG WITH A -- JIMMY HIGHTOWER OUT OF TEXAS, A MARVELOUS GUY WHO CAN MAKE MINCEMEAT IN DEBATE OUT OF RUSH LIMBAUGH. I MEAN, HE CAN CHOP HIM. HE CAN HAVE HIM FOR LUNCH. JIMMY'S NOT BEEN CUT OFF THE AIR WITH A FEW STATIONS. SO THEY'VE GOT NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PIE. ALL THAT THE OPPOSITION HAS IS ONE PERCENT OF THE PIE AND THE ONE PERCENT IS NOW BEING DENIED, SO THAT EXPLAINS A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT GOES ON.

PATT MORRISON>> WHEN YOU HAVE DONE YOUR BOOKS, AND PARTICULARLY WORKING, YOU SEEK OUT PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING CLASS MORE THAN PROFESSIONAL.

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, IT'S BOTH. I MEAN, WORKING, THERE ARE TEACHERS IN IT, OF COURSE, AND THERE ARE BUSINESSMEN IN IT, SMALL AND LARGE, AS WELL AS THE MECHANIC, THE PARKING LOT ATTENDANT AND THE OTHERS. NO, I TRY TO GET AS MANY AS I CAN. NOT JUST BLUE-COLLAR. I'M ASSOCIATED WITH THAT, BUT AFTER ALL, WORK IS WORK.

PATT MORRISON>> BUT THE UNSPOKEN DIRTY WORD IN THIS COUNTRY NOWADAYS SEEMS TO BE CLASS, THAT WE WON'T ACKNOWLEDGE SOME OF THE BREACHES.

STUDS TERKEL>> WE WON'T ACKNOWLEDGE CLASS. THAT'S INTERESTING. IN BRITAIN, IN ENGLAND, WE KNOW THAT ACCENT OFTEN DETERMINES THE CLASS AND THERE THEY ACCEPT THE CLASS DIFFERENCE. HERE, WORKING CLASS IS A WORD THAT IS AN UN-AMERICAN WORD, NOT USED HERE. IN EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD -- THERE WAS A BRITISH DIRECTOR, PETER HALL, VERY DISTINGUISHED IN SHAKESPEARE THEATRE, NATIONAL THEATRE. HE SAID, MY FATHER WAS A STATIONMASTER IN THE MIDLANDS. I CAME OUT OF A WORKING CLASS.

HERE, THERE'S A LITTLE GIRL ABOUT SIXTEEN YEARS OLD, HER FATHER IS A GARBAGE MAN, A VERY IMPORTANT JOB, I SAY. HE KEEPS PLAGUES FROM OCCURRING. SANITATION ENGINEER, HE IS CALLED TOO. I MADE THE MISTAKE OF SAYING TO HER, YOU COME FROM THE WORKING CLASS. SHE SAID, I BEG YOUR PARDON. I'M MIDDLE CLASS. IN ALL THE ELECTIONS, EVERY CANDIDATE IS MIDDLE CLASS. THERE IS NO OTHER, YOU SEE? YOU'RE $20,000 A YEAR, YOU'RE $200,000 A YEAR, YOU'RE MIDDLE CLASS. SO IT BECOMES FLACCID. OUR THINKING BECOMES FLACCID AND DULL AND PRETTY STUPID, BUT WE ACCEPT IT. WE ACCEPT IT BECAUSE THERE'S A STATUS ASPECT HERE TOO. WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT THAT THROUGH THE COMMERCIALS.

PATT MORRISON>> SO WE ALL CLING TO THE MIDDLE CLASS LABEL WHEN IN FACT WE ARE --

STUDS TERKEL>> -- THERE IS NO OTHER CLASS EXCEPT, OF COURSE, THE WORD I LOATHE, UNDER-CLASS. OF COURSE, A FEW OF THE FORTUNE 500. THEY'RE UP THERE, BUT THEY'RE SPECIAL, YOU SEE. SO WE HAVE A NUMBER OF WAYS OF DESCRIBING OURSELVES AS TO NATURE OF THE WORK WE DO AND THE AMOUNT OF DOUGH WE HAVE. IT'S ALSO A MATTER OF STATUS. SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, IF YOU SAY WORKING CLASS, WELL, NO, IT'S NOT RESPECTABLE. DO WE HAVE TIME? ARE WE NEAR THE END OF IT?

PATT MORRISON>> WE'RE ALMOST AT THE END (LAUGHTER).

STUDS TERKEL>> THE GI BILL OF RIGHTS AND THE ROLE IT'S PLAYED. IN THE SUBURBS, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR LIVES, WORLD WAR II VETS LIVE IN THE SUBURBS. IN THE OLD DAYS, SUBURBS SIMPLY MEANT THE RICH LIVED THERE. NOW MANY DO. ONCE YOU LIVE IN THAT PLACE AWAY FROM THE CITY ITSELF, YOU ASSUME A CERTAIN KIND OF FEELING TOO, WHETHER YOU'RE AWARE OF IT OR NOT.

PATT MORRISON>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT OBLIQUELY IN YOUR BOOK IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CELEBRITY AND HERO. YOU DON'T DIRECTLY GO TO THAT, BUT YOU CAN SENSE THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

STUDS TERKEL>> WELL, A CELEBRITY IS SOMEONE WHO'S CELEBRATED FOR BEING CELEBRATED, FOR BEING KNOWN, YOU KNOW? WHO CREATES CELEBRITIES? A GOSSIP COLUMNIST, STUFF WE READ. IT'S ASTONISHING. NOW THE ORDINARY PERSON SHOULD BE CELEBRATED. I'LL DO A VERY QUICK POEM BY THE GERMAN PLAYWRIGHT, BERTOLT BRECHT. WE KNOW HIM BEST FOR "MACK THE KNIFE" THAT CAME OUT OF --

PATT MORRISON>> -- "THREE PENNY OPERA".

STUDS TERKEL>> THE POEM IS ABOUT WHO BUILT THIS THING? WHO BUILT THE SEVEN GATES OF THIEVES? WHO CARRIED THOSE ROCKS? WHEN THE CHINESE WALL WAS BUILT, WHERE DID THE MASONS GO FOR LUNCH? WHEN CAESAR CONQUERED GAUL, THERE WAS NOT EVEN A COOK IN THE ARMY AND WHEN THE ARMADA SANK, THE SPANISH ARMADA, WE KNOW THE DATE, 1588, GOT IT IN SCHOOL, SIR FRANCIS DRAKE DID IT BY HIMSELF. WHEN THE ARMADA SANK, WE READ THAT KING PHILIP OF SPAIN WEPT. HERE'S THE BIG QUESTION: WERE THERE NO OTHER TEARS? IN HISTORY, I LIKE TO WRITE ABOUT IT, BUT THOSE OF HISTORY WHO SHED THOSE OTHER TEARS.

PATT MORRISON>> HAVE THEY GRATIFIED YOU IN WHAT THEY'VE HAD TO TELL YOU?

STUDS TERKEL>> THEY'VE GRATIFIED ME. THEY'VE SATISFIED MY CURIOSITY AND I FIND THAT PEOPLE ARE MORE COMPLEX THAN EVER, YET CAPABLE OF ANYTHING. THE HUMAN BEING IS CAPABLE OF HIROSHIMA AND AUSCHWITZ, AS WELL AS WRITING HAMLET AND MOZART AND BEETHOVEN'S NINTH. CAN DO ANYTHING.

PATT MORRISON>> STUDS TERKEL, FOR ALL OF YOUR WORKING, WE CERTAINLY DO THANK YOU AND LOOK FORWARD TO MORE.

STUDS TERKEL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

VAL>> STUDS TERKEL IS NOW NINETY-ONE AND SHOWS NO SIGNS OF SLOWING DOWN. HE HAS A BOOK DUE IN OCTOBER TITLED "HOPE DIES LAST: KEEPING THE FAITH IN DIFFICULT TIMES". AND HE'S GOT ANOTHER ONE IN HIS WORKS, A COMPILATION OF HIS INTERVIEWS WITH MUSICIANS RANGING FROM BOB DYLAN TO GUITARIST, ANDREA SEGOVIA.

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