7/03/03

LC030703

VAL ZAVALA>> ON THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES --

KEVIN STARR>> THOREAU, READING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CUT DOWN A REDWOOD TREE, I THINK IT WAS A SEQUOIA, POLISHING THE TRUNK SO THEY COULD HAVE A DANCE ON IT SAID -- I'M PARAPHRASING NOW -- SAID, "IT'S ONLY A FEW MILES CLOSER TO HELL."

VAL>> ANOTHER LOOK AT THE REMARKABLE STORIES AND PEOPLE WE'VE ENCOUNTERED OVER OUR DOZEN YEARS ON THE AIR. JOIN US FOR ONE OF OUR FAVORITE SHOWS FROM THE VAULT, NEXT ON A SPECIAL CLASSIC EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATION:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> HUNDREDS OF NOTABLE AUTHORS, CELEBRITIES, INTELLECTUALS AND PUBLIC FIGURES HAVE STOPPED BY OUR STUDIO OVER THE YEARS. MANY OF THEM HAVE LEFT A LASTING IMPRESSION ON OUR VIEWERS AND WE THINK A NUMBER OF THESE INTERVIEWS DESERVE TO BE SEEN AGAIN. SO TONIGHT WE REVISIT ONE OF OUR FAVORITE PEOPLE IN A CLASSIC EPISODE SELECTED FROM THE BEST OF LIFE AND TIMES.

KEVIN STARR IS CALIFORNIA'S OFFICIAL STATE LIBRARIAN. HE'S ALSO AN AUTHOR, HISTORIAN AND A GREAT STORYTELLER. HIS BOOKS TELL US HOW LEGEND AND HISTORY COMBINED TO HELP SHAPE PRESENT-DAY CALIFORNIA. HE SPOKE WITH PATT MORRISON IN 1995 ABOUT THE STATE'S MANY SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC REBIRTHS.

PATT MORRISON>> KEVIN STARR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WE'RE COMING UP ON THE SESQUICENTENNIAL, THE 150TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE CALIFORNIA GOLD RUSH, WHICH YOU SAID SET FOREVER THE TEMPERAMENT AND THE CHARACTER OF CALIFORNIA. ARE WE ANYTHING LIKE WHAT WE DREAMED WE WOULD BE ALL THOSE YEARS AGO?

KEVIN STARR>> WELL, I THINK WE ARE IN MANY WAYS. I THINK THERE IS A SENSE OF A SECOND CHANCE, A SENSE OF SELF-INVENTION. THE GOLD RUSH WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST MASS MIGRATIONS IN HUMAN HISTORY. IT WAS ALSO MAGNIFICENTLY CULTURALLY DIVERSE, BRINGING PEOPLE FROM LATIN AMERICA, FROM THE EASTERN SHORE OF THE UNITED STATES, FROM FRANCE, FROM EUROPE, FROM THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS, AND I THINK THAT SENSE OF ECUMENICAL, DIVERSE CIVILIZATION WITH A SENSE OF NEW BEGINNINGS, BUT ALSO WITH A SENSE OF PERIL TOO. DON'T FORGET THE GOLD RUSH EXPERIENCED A TERRIBLE EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE IN 1850 AND 1851 AND CONSEQUENT REACTION OF LYNCH LAW, SO THERE ARE MANY, MANY PARALLELS. I THINK WE HAVE A SOCIETY WHICH IS DYNAMIC, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, VOLATILE AS IT WAS IN 1848, 1849 AND 1850.

PATT MORRISON>> SO WE WERE DIVERSE, WE WERE GREEDY, WE WERE HOPEFUL. WE WERE, IN SHORT, ALL THE THINGS THAT WE ARE NOW.

KEVIN STARR>> YES, AND VERY IMPORTANTLY TOO, PATT, THAT WE HAD A SENSE OF INSTITUTIONS. JOSIAH ROYCE, OUR GREAT PHILOSOPHER-HISTORIAN PRODUCED BY CALIFORNIA, WRITES IN THE 1880'S THAT IT'S NOT SO MUCH THAT AMERICANS MISBEHAVED THEMSELVES IN CALIFORNIA WHEN THEY WERE WAY OUT AHEAD OF INSTITUTIONS IN THE LAW, BUT THAT THEY SUDDENLY REDISCOVERED AND REINVENTED PATTERNS OF GOOD BEHAVIOR.

THEY REDISCOVERED THE LAW, THEY BUILT LIBRARIES, SCHOOLS, CHURCHES, SYNAGOGUES, AND THIS EXISTING OUT AHEAD OF CIVILIZATION. THEY BROUGHT A SENSE OF CIVILIZATION, OF STABILIZATION, WITH THEM. I THINK THAT'S A CRUCIAL ISSUE TODAY IN CALIFORNIA AS WE SORT OF RECONSTRUCT AND REINVENT OUR INSTANCE OF AMERICAN CIVILIZATION IN A POST-COLD WAR ECONOMY. WE'VE GOT A LOT OF REINVENTING TO DO.

PATT MORRISON>> WHAT ABOUT CALIFORNIA'S IMPERATIVES AND HOW THEY'VE SHAPED US? WHAT REALLY ARE THEY AND WHAT HAVE THEY DEMANDED OF US?

KEVIN STARR>> I THINK THE BASIC IDEA IS A VERY SIMPLE IDEA. REMEMBER SAMUEL JOHNSON IN THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY SAID IT'S NOT NECESSARY TO BE ORIGINAL, ONLY CORRECT. THAT SIMPLE IDEA OF A BETTER LIFE, MORE THAN A PASSABLE ROUND OF DAYS, THAT LIFE SOMEHOW COULD BE IMPROVED NOT JUST FOR ELITES, BUT FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS. THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO CAME OUT HERE IN THE GOLD RUSH AND CAME OUT HERE IN THE 1860'S AND 1870'S, THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO CAME HERE AND FLOCKED INTO LOS ANGELES IN THE 1880'S AND THEN IN THE MASS MIGRATION JUST BEFORE WORLD WAR I WERE AMERICANS WHO WERE MID-AMERICANS IN MANY, MANY INSTANCES WHO WANTED SOMETHING MORE THAN THEY HAD ELSEWHERE.

THEY WANTED AN INTENSIFICATION OF DAILY LIFE, A CHANCE TO OWN A HOME, A CHANCE TO HAVE A GOOD JOB, A CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE PHYSICAL BEAUTY, TO ENJOY GOOD WEATHER. ALL THOSE ASSUMPTIONS, I THINK, STILL ARE THERE AND EVERY DAY THEY BRING PEOPLE INTO CALIFORNIA FROM THE FAR-FLUNG CORNERS OF THE WORLD THIS TIME BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT, IN CALIFORNIA, THERE'S NOT JUST A SECOND CHANCE, BUT MAYBE A THIRD AND A FOURTH, SOMETHING BETTER.

PATT MORRISON>> NOW REALLY TWO HALVES OF US HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER OVER THIS PAST 150 YEARS. THERE IS THE DOLCE FARNIENTE, THE MEDITERRANEAN SWEET DO-NOTHING SPIRIT, AND THEN THE YANKEE CAN-DO INGENUITY. HOW HAVE THESE TWO PARTS WORKED TOGETHER, IF THEY EVEN HAVE OVER ALL THIS TIME?

KEVIN STARR>> WELL, I THINK THEY'VE GIVEN US A DISPOSITION TOWARDS THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE WHICH THE PURITAN YANKEE ORIGINS OF AMERICAN CULTURE -- WE CAN'S SAY ALL OF AMERICAN CULTURE BECAUSE AMERICAN CULTURE INCLUDES THE MIDDLE ATLANTIC STATES, THE SOUTHERN STATES, AND THE SOUTHERN STATES HAD A GREAT RELISH FOR LIFE TOO -- BUT THAT THE IDEA OF ACCOMMODATING ONE'S SELF TO THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE IN CALIFORNIA WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS ACHIEVED HERE.

WE SAW THAT AS NOT LEADING TO DISSIPATION OR TO A LACK OF VITALITY OR TO ECONOMIC NON-COMPETITIVENESS. WE FELT THAT YOU COULD HAVE BOTH SMOKESTACKS AND GERANIUMS, AS THEY DEBATED IN SAN DIEGO, THAT WE COULD HAVE A CULTURE THAT WAS UP TO DATE, MODERN, EFFICIENT, TECHNOLOGICAL AND, AT THE SAME TIME, LIKE THE MEDITERRANEAN CULTURES, HAD TIME FOR ART, MUSIC, SONG, OUTDOOR LIFE AND BEAUTY. I THINK THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE FORMULA, THE INTERACTION OF NATURE AND TECHNOLOGY, INDUSTRIALISM AND A PASTORAL IMPULSE.

PATT MORRISON>> THERE'S ANOTHER KIND OF DISSONANCE AT WORK IN CALIFORNIANS. ONE IS THE IDEA OF INHOSPITABLE NATURE THAT HAS TO BE DOMINATED AND ALTERED, AND THE OTHER ONE IS THE JOHN MUIR IDEA OF A NEW EDEN AND THE EFFECT THAT IT HAS ON OUR CHARACTER TO BE PART OF THAT NEW EDEN.

KEVIN STARR>> THAT'S VERY TRUE, PATT. DEEP IN THE CORE OF THE AMERICAN PROTESTANT OR ANGLO-AMERICAN PROTESTANT SENSIBILITY, YOU CAN SEE IT IN JONATHAN EDWARDS IN THE EIGHTEENTH CENTURY, IS A SENSE OF NATURE IN AMERICA AS BEING ALMOST IF NOT ACTUALLY A DIRECT REVELATION OF THE DIVINE MIND, THAT ONE READ THE AMERICAN CONTINENT LIKE SCRIPTURE ITSELF. AMERICANS IN THE 1830'S AND 1840'S, FOR INSTANCE, WOULD GO UP TO NIAGARA FALLS, YOUNG AMERICANS WHO HAS ASPIRATIONS FOR ART AND CREATIVITY, AS IF TO EXPERIENCE NIAGARA FALLS AND GET SOME KIND OF GREAT MESSAGE, THE WAY THAT JOHN MUIR GOT THAT GREAT MESSAGE FROM YOSEMITE.

PATT MORRISON>> LIKE AN EPIPHANY?

KEVIN STARR>> LIKE AN EPIPHANY, EXACTLY. LIKE JOHN MUIR AND THOMAS STARR KING GOT THAT MESSAGE FROM YOSEMITE. IN FACT, THOMAS STARR KING, THE UNITARIAN MINISTER HERE IN THE 1860'S, URGED CALIFORNIANS TO BUILD YOSEMITES OF THE SOUL WHERE THE LANDSCAPE ITSELF TOLD US WHAT KIND OF CIVILIZATION WE SHOULD HAVE.

JOSIAH ROYCE, IN HIS BOOK CALLED "THE HIGHER PROVINCIALISM", SAID THAT THE LANDSCAPE OF CALIFORNIA WAS TWO-FOLD. IT WAS GRAND AND MAGNIFICENT, BUT IT ALWAYS TOLD YOU WHAT IT WAS DOING. YOU WERE EITHER IN A BROAD PLAIN LOOKING UP TO MOUNTAINS OR YOU WERE ALONG A BROAD SEASHORE AS OPPOSED TO, SAY, THE TANGLED LANDSCAPE OF NEW ENGLAND WHERE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS AROUND THE CORNER. HE SAID THAT, FROM THAT INTERACTION OF VISTA AND YET POSSESSION OF LIMITS CAME A CERTAIN HEROIC TEMPERAMENT IN CALIFORNIA.

PATT MORRISON>> SO WE HAVE THE URGE TO BEAT THE HELL OUT OF IT AND ALTER IT IN EVERY FASHION?

KEVIN STARR>> THIS IS WHAT THOREAU -- THOREAU, READING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO CUT DOWN A REDWOOD TREE, I THINK IT WAS A SEQUOIA, AND POLISHING THE TRUNK SO THEY COULD HAVE A DANCE ON IT, SAID -- I'M PARAPHRASING NOW -- HE SAID "IT'S ONLY A FEW MILES CLOSER TO HELL", THE DESPOLIATION OF THE ENVIRONMENT. SEE, THAT'S THE PARADOX, PATT. I MEAN, FOR INSTANCE, I'M WORKING OUT A GOOD PART OF THE WEEK IN SACRAMENTO AS STATE LIBRARIAN OF CALIFORNIA. SACRAMENTO WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. SACRAMENTO IS LIKE HOLLAND. THE WHOLE AREA THERE IS BASICALLY THE FLOOD PLAIN OF A GREAT INLAND SEA THAT OCCURS AND REOCCURS.

THE IMPERIAL VALLEY IS ANOTHER CREATION OF IRRIGATION. LOS ANGELES ITSELF PROPELLED ITSELF INTO URBANIZATION, TO METROPOLITAN STATUS, BETWEEN 1907 AND 1913 WITH THE OWENS VALLEY PROJECT, THEN FOLLOWED BY THE HOOVER-BOULDER DAM PROJECT. YOU CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT CALIFORNIA IS ONE VAST ACT OF ENGINEERING, ONE VAST DEFIANCE OF NATURE. WE LEARN THIS, OF COURSE, IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EVERY NOW AND THEN WHEN FLOOD, FIRE, EARTHQUAKE RE-REMINDS US MOTHER NATURE ALSO CAN'T BE FULLY SUBDUED NOR SHOULD IT BE.

PATT MORRISON>> EVEN TO OUR LANDSCAPE, THE EUCALYPTUS TREE, THE PALM TREE, THE OFFICIAL FLOWER OF LOS ANGELES, THE BIRD OF PARADISE, THEY ALL COME FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE.

KEVIN STARR>> THEY'RE INVENTIONS, BUT THEY'RE INVENTIONS THAT COME DEEP FROM WITHIN. FOR INSTANCE, THOSE CALIFORNIANS WHO PLANTED PALM TREES IN FRONT OF SCHOOLS, ORPHANAGES, ALONG THE VISTAS OF THE BOULEVARDS OF LOS ANGELES IN THE 1890'S WERE THINKING OF THE HOLY LAND, WERE THINKING OF PALM TREES AS A METAPHOR FOR PALESTINE, FOR THE MEDITERRANEAN --

PATT MORRISON>> -- AND THE CHOSEN PEOPLE.

KEVIN STARR>> AND THE CHOSEN PEOPLE, EXACTLY. THE LANDSCAPE OF CALIFORNIA, ESPECIALLY SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BECAUSE IN THE FAR NORTH, OF COURSE, YOU HAVE A MORE INDIGENOUS LANDSCAPE, BUT THE LANDSCAPE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA IS AN ACT OF INVENTION, OF DELIBERATE DEFINITION OF CULTURE THROUGH HORTICULTURE.

PATT MORRISON>> MUCH LIKE THIS PLACE ITSELF.

KEVIN STARR>> YES, YES. THAT'S ONE OF THE MYSTERIES OF LOS ANGELES. IT'S SUCH AN IMPROBABLE CITY. IT DIDN'T HAVE TO BE HERE. IT WANTED TO BE HERE OR PEOPLE WANTED IT TO BE HERE.

PATT MORRISON>> WE STILL HAVE A TENDENCY TO WRING OUR HANDS OVER WHAT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THINKS OF US. LIKE ALEXANDER POPE SAID OF MANKIND, WE'RE THE ENVY, JEST AND RIDDLE OF THE WORLD. DO THEY HATE US? ARE THEY JEALOUS OF US? DO WE NOT LIVE UP TO THEIR MYTHOLOGIES ABOUT US?

KEVIN STARR>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO THINGS TO TALK ABOUT HERE, THE WORLD AND THE UNITED STATES. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE INVENTED CALIFORNIA. CALIFORNIA IS NOT A PRODUCT OF NEW ENGLAND, IT'S NOT A PRODUCT OF THE MIDWEST OR THE SOUTH. IT WAS BROUGHT INTO BEING BY THE FEROCIOUS MIDWIFERY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OPERATING THROUGH, IN THIS CASE, THE MEXICAN WAR. CALIFORNIA REPRESENTS, I THINK, A KIND OF PROJECTION ON THE PART OF THE ENTIRE NATION OF ITS OWN ASPIRATIONS. NOW THAT'S WITHIN THE UNITED STATES. ON A WORLDWIDE BASIS, CALIFORNIA STANDS AS THE CUTTING EDGE OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.

WHEN EUROPEANS OR WHEN ASIANS OR WHEN OTHERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD THINK OF COMING TO THE UNITED STATES AND THINKING WHAT IT IS TO BE AN AMERICAN, NINE TIMES OUT OF TEN THEY'RE THINKING WHAT IT IS TO BE THE AMERICAN AS CALIFORNIAN. SO I THINK THAT, BECAUSE OF THAT INTENSITY, THERE ARE MANY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVE A CERTAIN CULTURAL BIAS OR CERTAIN REGIONAL ENVY OF THIS REGION AND, EVERY TIME IT EXPERIENCES DIFFICULTIES, THEY SAY, AHA, SEE, YOU'RE NOT WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE. BECAUSE, IN EFFECT, SOMETHING OF THE AMERICAN IDEAL IS LOST EVERY TIME CALIFORNIA LOSES ITS OWN IDEALS.

PATT MORRISON>> SO MUCH OF THE POLITICAL CHARACTER OF CALIFORNIA SEEMS SHAPED LESS BY FORMAL POLITICS THAN BY THE BOOSTERISM THAT DROVE THIS STATE FOR SO LONG. THE EXAMPLES OF REAL ESTATE SALESMEN WHO WOULD STICK ORANGES ON THE SPINES OF JOSHUA TREES AND SAY, HEY, LOOK AT THAT TERRIFIC ORANGE GROVE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO SELL YOU. WHAT ABOUT THIS IDEA OF BOOSTERISM THAT BECAME A PARODY OF CALIFORNIA AND WHAT IT WAS TRYING TO BECOME?

KEVIN STARR>> PATT, THEY PUT ORANGES ON JOSHUA TREES, BUT THEY ALSO PLANTED INNUMERABLE CITRUS GROVES. IT'S HARD TO DISENGAGE THE BALLY-HO, THE FAKE BOOSTERISM, WITH THE REALITY. WHAT'S THE LAST LINES OF "LIBERTY VALANCE"? "WHEN THE LEGEND BECOMES REALITY, PRINT THE LEGEND". THE NEWSPAPER EDITOR SAYS THAT. I THINK THAT ALL THAT BOOSTERISM, THAT SORT OF SENSE OF THE WIZARD OF OZ BEHIND THE GREEN CURTAIN, IT'S VERY HARD TO SAY, WELL, WHEN IS IT REAL AND WHEN IS IT NOT REAL? WAS IT BOOSTERISM, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN FRED EATON AND MULHOLLAND WENT UP TO THE OWENS VALLEY AND DREAMT OF BRINGING THAT WATER TO LOS ANGELES? WAS IT BOOSTERISM WHEN HARRY CULVER LOOKED OUT OVER THE HILLS OF WEST LOS ANGELES AND DREAMT THAT ONE DAY THERE WOULD BE GREAT BLOCKS OF HOMES THERE FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS? I THINK IT'S A MIXED ALEMBIC.

PATT MORRISON>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE INFLUENCES IN CALIFORNIA THAT WERE NOT STRICTLY POLITICAL. HOW THE GREAT RANCHO SYSTEM, FOR EXAMPLE, CREATED A SCALE OF AGRIBUSINESS THAT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE SOMEWHERE ELSE, HOW THE RAILROADS WERE SOCIAL AND POLITICAL INSTITUTIONS UNTO THEMSELVES. BUT POLITICS AS IT IS PRACTICED ELSEWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY IS REALLY KIND OF NULL AND VOID IN CALIFORNIA.

KEVIN STARR>> I THINK A LOT OF IT IS THAT CALIFORNIANS VESTED THEIR POLITICAL AMBITIONS IN LOCAL ENTITIES, IN IRRIGATION DISTRICTS AND SCHOOL DISTRICTS AND LOCAL FIRE DISTRICTS, ETC. THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA REMAINED -- AND STILL REMAINS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT EVEN THOUGH WE ALL PAY TAXES TO IT AND EVEN THOUGH WE RECOGNIZE THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WE CAN DO ON A STATEWIDE BASIS THAT WE CAN'T DO AS LOCAL COMMUNITIES -- THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA REMAINS SOMETHING OF AN ABSTRACTION STRICTLY BECAUSE IT'S SO LARGE, SO ENCOMPASSING, SO THAT FULLY DOMINANT STATEWIDE FIGURES HAVE HAD A TOUGH TIME EMERGING.

PATT MORRISON>> PERHAPS STATE GOVERNMENT WAS SUPPLANTED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND HERE'S ONE OF THE INSTANCES WHERE I THINK OUR CALIFORNIA CHARACTER IS AT VARIANCE WITH ITSELF. ON THE ONE HAND, WE HAVE THIS ENORMOUS FEDERAL INFLUENCE, THIS SUPPLY OF MONEY, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE OUR PERCEPTION OF OURSELVES AS RUGGED INDIVIDUALS.

KEVIN STARR>> THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BROUGHT US INTO BEING IN THE MID-NINETEENTH CENTURY AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS, FOR THE LAST FIFTY YEARS, BEEN PUMPING ECONOMIC STEROIDS THROUGH OUR VEINS THROUGH ITS DEFENSE INDUSTRY. IN FACT, ROGER LOTCHIN, IN HIS BOOK, "FORTRESS CALIFORNIA", THAT CAME OUT ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO, ASKED YOU TO LOOK AT A MAP OF SUBURBAN CALIFORNIA AND JUXTAPOSE THAT WITH THE DEFENSE ESTABLISHMENT AND YOU COULD SEE THE FACT THAT IT WAS THE DEFENSE INDUSTRY WHICH BUILT EVEN THE PRESENT SUBURBAN STRUCTURES OF OUR STATE.

PATT MORRISON>> SO HOW HAVE CALIFORNIANS BEEN ABLE TO RESOLVE THIS CONTRADICTION BETWEEN FEDERAL DEPENDENCY AND OUR OWN SENSE OF INDIVIDUALISM?

KEVIN STARR>> WELL, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE RESOLVED IT. I THINK THAT THE CURRENT DEBATE ABOUT UN-FUNDED FEDERAL MANDATES IS PART OF THAT, THE CURRENT DEBATE ABOUT IMMIGRATION. RESPONSIBILITIES FOR COSTS FOR IMMIGRANTS, WHETHER LEGAL OR ILLEGAL, IS PART OF THAT. THE LARGER SAGEBRUSH REVOLUTION WHICH I THINK HAS MORE URBAN MANIFESTATIONS THAN SUBURBAN MANIFESTATIONS IN CALIFORNIA IS PART OF THAT. UNRESOLVED QUESTION ABOUT THE FAR WEST. IN FACT, THE ENTIRE FAR WEST WAS BROUGHT INTO BEING BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. IT'S IRONIC THAT THE FAR WEST SHOULD BE THE PLACE NOW WHERE THE SO-CALLED SAGEBRUSH REVOLUTION IS TRYING TO REJECT THE PROPER ROLE OF FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

PATT MORRISON>> IT'S OUR ADOLESCENCE SHOWING ITSELF.

KEVIN STARR>> YES, IT IS AND IT'S AN UNRESOLVED RELATIONSHIP. BUT, YOU KNOW, PATT, WE HAVE TO BE HUMBLE WITH OURSELVES AND PATIENT. AFTER ALL, OUR EXPERIMENT, WHICH I FEEL AS AN AMERICAN IS DESTINED TO LAST IS ONLY, WHAT, TWO HUNDRED SOMETHING YEARS OLD AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HAVE TO BE WORKED OUT. WE MADE THE DECISION BETWEEN 1860 AND 1865, TERRIBLY ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE, THAT WE WOULD BE ONE NATION INDIVISIBLE, UNDER GOD, AND THE EXACT FORMULAS FOR SHARING THAT AUTHORITY, OF COMBINING THAT PARADOX OF BEING A FEDERAL UNION OF SOVEREIGN STATES, MY GOSH, IT WOULD TAKE OTHER CIVILIZATIONS THREE OR FOUR HUNDRED YEARS TO WORK THAT OUT.

PATT MORRISON>> THE LATEST BOOK IN YOUR CALIFORNIA QUARTET IS ABOUT THE DEPRESSION.

KEVIN STARR>> OH, YOU MENTION THE QUARTET LIKE THE ALEXANDRIA QUARTET.

PATT MORRISON>> LIKE THE ALEXANDRIA QUARTET.

KEVIN STARR>> OH, I LOVE THOSE. JUSTINE, BALTHAZAR, MOUNT OLIVE.

PATT MORRISON>> (LAUGHTER) YES, THAT'S RIGHT. BALTHAZAR. BEFORE THIS MASSIVE INFUSION OF FEDERAL MONEY, WE WENT THROUGH THE DEPRESSION AFTER HAVING COME THROUGH THE PROGRESSIVE YEARS. WHY WAS THAT ERA SO CRITICAL THAT YOU SPENT A BOOK ON IT?

KEVIN STARR>> IN FACT, I SPENT TWO BOOKS ON IT. I SENT A MANUSCRIPT TO OXFORD THAT WAS SO LONG THAT THEY CUT IT IN HALF. THE FIRST VOLUME, WHICH IS OUT NOW, "ENDANGERED DREAMS", IS ABOUT SOCIAL POLITICAL CONFLICT IN THE DEPRESSION. THAT'S A SEPARATE VOLUME. THE NEXT VOLUME WHICH WILL BE OUT NEXT YEAR IS "THE DREAM ENDURES". IT'S ABOUT THE AESTHETIC AND ARTISTIC RESPONSE TO THE DEPRESSION.

BUT IT'S VERY INTERESTING. THE FIRST HALF OF THE 1930'S, CALIFORNIANS TRIED TO DO IT ALONE AND WE DID IT ALONE. I MEAN, OUR STATE RELIEF ASSOCIATION -- THE MYTH, AND IT'S A GOOD MYTH AND IT'S AN ARTISTIC MYTH THAT JOHN STEINBECK HAS IN "GRAPES OF WRATH" THAT CALIFORNIANS WERE ALL HARD-HEARTED TO THE SUFFERING OF THE MIGRANTS, ETC. IT'S NOT THE CASE. WE HAVE INSTANCES IN KERN COUNTY WHERE THEY EXPERIENCED THEIR TAXES BEING RAISED FIVE TIMES. WE HAVE NUMEROUS INSTANCES --

PATT MORRISON>> -- TO PAY FOR THE MIGRANTS?

KEVIN STARR>> TO PAY FOR MIGRANTS' EDUCATION. WE HAVE NUMEROUS INSTANCES OF SCHOOL TEACHERS WITH MONEY OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKETS BUYING SHOES FOR MIGRANT CHILDREN.

PATT MORRISON>> AS SOME OF THEM ARE NOWADAYS.

KEVIN STARR>> EXACTLY, AND DEDICATED PUBLIC HEALTH NURSES THAT WOULD GO INTO THESE COMMUNITIES AND WORK. IT'S JUST THAT WE BECAME OVERWHELMED AFTER THE FIRST BIG INFLUX IN THE MID-1930'S AND THEN A SECOND BIG INFLUX TOWARDS THE END OF THE DECADE. OF COURSE, WITH THE NEW DEAL COMING INTO FULL SWING, FEDERAL PROGRAMS BECAME AVAILABLE FOR THE MIGRANT CAMPS, ETC. SO THE FIRST HALF OF THE 1930'S, CALIFORNIA TRIED AND I THINK DID A REASONABLE GOOD JOB OF DOING IT ALONE.

PATT MORRISON>> YOU'RE ALSO WRITING ABOUT THE AESTHETIC OF THE 1930'S. WHAT KIND OF AESTHETIC WAS THERE THAT EMERGED OUT OF THE DEPRESSION HERE?

KEVIN STARR>> THE DEPRESSION BROUGHT A TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR ORDINARY MEN AND WOMEN, WORKING MEN AND WOMEN. IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE PAINTING, FOR INSTANCE, MILLARD SHEETS'S PAINTING OF "BUNKER HILL" WHICH I THINK IS ONE OF THE GREAT PAINTINGS OF CALIFORNIA, AND YOU LOOK AT THOSE WOMEN ON TOP OF BUNKER HILL LOOKING DOWN AND YOU LOOK AT THE STURDINESS AND STRENGTH OF THEM, THESE ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE, AND, LET THE DEPRESSION COME, THEY WILL PREVAIL.

THIS CELEBRATION OF ORDINARY MEN AND WOMEN, THIS REDISCOVERY, IF YOU WILL, OF THE SHARED COMMUNAL IDENTITY THAT CUT THROUGH CLASS -- DIDN'T ALWAYS CUT THROUGH RACE. THERE WERE A LOT OF RACIAL TENSIONS IN THE DEPRESSION AS WELL -- BUT IT CUT THROUGH CLASS AT LEAST. I THINK IT WAS ENDURING LEGACY AND PEOPLE DISCOVERED THAT. PEOPLE BOUGHT INTO COMMUNITY IN THE DEPRESSION IN A WAY THAT I THINK WE NEED TO RE-REMIND OURSELVES OF.

PATT MORRISON>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE APOTHEOSIS OF THE ORDINARY MAN IN THE 1930'S. HOLLYWOOD HAD ALREADY BEEN DOING THAT FOR TWENTY YEARS, TAKING NOBODIES AND GIVING THEM STATURE AND FAME ON AN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. HOLLYWOOD, IN FACT, WAS TAKING THE CALIFORNIA IMAGE AND FOLDING AND REFOLDING IT BACK ON ITSELF, CREATING SOMETHING AND THEN SELLING IT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

KEVIN STARR>> PATT, WHAT YOU SAY STRIKES A LOT OF REVERBERATIONS IN ME BECAUSE, WHEN WE FIRST TRIED TO UNDERSTAND THE FILM AS A MEDIA, PEOPLE LIKE MUNSTERBERG AT HARVARD, VACHEL LINDSEY, THE POET, AND WILLIAM DEAN HOWELLS, THE NOVELIST WHO WROTE AN ESSAY ON CINEMATOGRAPHY FOR HARPERS, WERE ALL ASTONISHED THAT YOU NEEDED NO PRIOR PREPARATION TO UNDERSTAND THIS ART FORM, THAT IT CAME FROM DEMOTIC CIRCUMSTANCES, VAUDEVILLE, I GUESS KINESCOPES THAT YOU'D LOOK INTO.

IT WAS BEING ORCHESTRATED BY PEOPLE WHO A FEW YEARS EARLIER HAD BEEN IN THE HABERDASHERY AND THE FUR AND GLOVE BUSINESS. IT WAS CAPABLE OF HIGH ART AND BRINGING HIGH ART TO A MASS AUDIENCE. YOU DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW ITALIAN, YOU DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW AESTHETICS, YOU COULD INSTANTLY -- D.W. GRIFFITH UNDERSTAND THAT, FOR INSTANCE, WHEN HE STARTED TO CUT HIS FILMS, TAKING FOR GRANTED THAT ORDINARY PEOPLE COULD MAKE SHIFTS OF TIME AND SPACE AND SEQUENCE AND NARRATIVE CONNECTIONS THAT THEY DIDN'T NEED TO BE SPOON-FED.

PATT MORRISON>> BUT HAS HOLLYWOOD LED US ASTRAY, THOUGH, WITH OUR SENSE OF NARCISSISM?

KEVIN STARR>> WELL, THAT RAPPORT WAS CONTROVERSIAL. FOR INSTANCE, WHEN THE DEPRESSION FULLY DAWNED PSYCHOLOGICALLY IN 1933, WE HAVE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF HORROR FILMS. YOU HAVE A LOT OF FILMS OF RESISTANT REBELLIOUS SEXUALITY.

PATT MORRISON>> AND POLITICAL, LIKE "MEET JOHN DOE".

KEVIN STARR>> EXACTLY. A LOT OF FILMS DEPICTING THE SYSTEM, EVEN JUDGES, LAWYERS AS SHYSTERS, ETC. I THINK WE'RE EXPERIENCING THAT ONCE AGAIN. IT JUST MAY BE THAT FUTURE HISTORIANS OF THE FILM WILL SEE IN THE FILMS OF TODAY, WHAT, THEIR EMPHASIS ON DISLOCATION, DIS-EQUILIBRIUM, DIS-EDIFYING BEHAVIOR, THEY'LL SEE A KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL RELEASE THAT PERHAPS THE CULTURE NEEDS. I HATE TO THINK OF THAT, BUT IT'S HARD TO JUDGE IT IN OUR TIME. CERTAINLY FILMS ARE TODAY DISJOINTED AND -- I HATE TO USE THAT WORD -- THEY'RE POSSESSED OF A KIND OF ANGST-RIDDEN QUALITY THAT NONE OF US FULLY UNDERSTAND.

PATT MORRISON>> YOU WERE BORN IN SAN FRANCISCO. YOU ADMIT TO LOVING LOS ANGELES AND YOU'VE LIVED TO TELL THE TALE.

KEVIN STARR>> LOS ANGELES IS A MOVABLE FEAST. IT COMES INTO PEOPLES' LIVES. A GOOD PERCENTAGE OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS CITY CHOSE TO BE IN LOS ANGELES. I HAD ALWAYS, OF COURSE --

PATT MORRISON>> -- WHICH WAS TRUE OF CALIFORNIA FOR A LONG TIME.

KEVIN STARR>> WHICH WAS TRUE OF CALIFORNIA. I'D BEEN ALL THROUGH LOS ANGELES GROWING UP AND I WAS A RESEARCH FELLOW AT THE HUNTINGTON LIBRARY FOR A YEAR IN THE MID-1970'S. MY WIFE AND CHILDREN AND MY ST. BERNARD DOG LIVED DOWN HERE AND WE LOVED IT, ETC. BUT IN 1989, I WAS OFFERED A PROFESSORSHIP AT USC AND, AFTER BEING IN SAN FRANCISCO FOR TWENTY YEARS, I CAME DOWN HERE AND, ALL OF A SUDDEN, I FOUND A COMMUNITY OF SELF-AUTHENTICATING, SELF-INVENTING, SELF-ENERGIZING PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT INTERESTED IN FULFILLING A SORT OF ACHIEVED PARADIGM OF THEMSELVES, BUT WERE INTERESTED IN GETTING ABOUT THE BUSINESS OF DEALING WITH MANIFEST PROBLEMS AND MULTIPLE PROBLEMS AND GETTING ON WITH A BETTER WORLD AND I RESPONDED TO THAT ENERGY.

PATT MORRISON>> THE ONLY REAL CRITICISM OF YOUR WORK SEEMS TO BE THAT, WHEN IT COMES TO CALIFORNIA, YOU ARE SO ROMANTIC AND IDEALISTIC ABOUT THE PLACE.

KEVIN STARR>> OH, SAY IT AGAIN. I LOVE IT WHEN YOU TALK THAT WAY (LAUGHTER). I AM. POLITICALLY, I'M A WHIG DEMOCRATIC. I MEAN, I BELIEVE IN ORDINARY PEOPLE. I BELIEVE IN JOBS. I BELIEVE IN THE ESSENTIAL GOODNESS OF HUMAN LIFE. I BELIEVE IN THE POSSIBILITIES OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT. IT'S VERY INTERESTING, PATT, THAT WHEN YOU'RE IN NOIR, WHEN YOU LOOK ON THE DARK SIDE OF THINGS, YOU SAY, OH, THIS IS TERRIBLE AND THAT'S TERRIBLE AND THIS IS TERRIBLE, WHAT ABOUT THAT, EVERYBODY SAYS, OH, A DEEP THINKER, A DEEP THINKER. BUT WHEN YOU STRUGGLE FOR HOPE, WHEN YOU STRUGGLE TO RECREATE THE WORLD, AS I HAD TO DO AS A CHILD WHEN MY PARENTS WERE DIVORCED AND I WAS PLACED IN A ROMAN CATHOLIC ORPHANAGE BECAUSE NEITHER PARENT COULD TAKE CARE OF ME, I HAD TO RECREATE MY WORLD AT THE AGE OF FIVE AND SIX. I HAD TO REACH OUT AND FIND THE GOODNESS OF LIFE AND I FOUND IT IN THE NUNS WHO TOOK CARE OF ME.

BUT THEN WHEN YOU FIND THE GOODNESS, PEOPLE SAY, OH, BOOSTER. LISTEN, REALITY IS NOIR AND REALITY IS OPTIMISTIC TOO. HOPE ITSELF IS A FORM OF KNOWLEDGE AND THIS GLORIFICATION OF UNEARNED CYNICISM, OF THE POSE OF CYNICISM, IT HAS NOTHING BUT MY CONTEMPT BECAUSE I THINK IT'S INTELLECTUALLY SECOND-RATE. I THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO SEE BOTH THE TRAGEDY AND THE POSSIBILITIES OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE. THE DEEP FUNDAMENTAL IMAGINATION AND INTELLECT THAT EACH OF US SHOULD FORM IN OURSELVES HAS TO SEE EVIL AND SEE THE STRUGGLE AGAINST EVIL AS A CONSTANT IN HUMAN AFFAIRS AND NOT GLORIFY ONE OVER THE OTHER.

PATT MORRISON>> FOR SO MANY YEARS IN CALIFORNIA, WE HAVE DEALT WITH ECONOMIC THREATS AND THE THREAT OF NATURAL DISASTER. NOW IT'S THE THREAT FROM WITHIN OUR OWN SOCIAL FABRIC THAT SEEMS TO BE PUTTING US AT RISK.

KEVIN STARR>> WE, PATT, HAVE TO EARN OUR CIVILIZATION. DO YOU THINK CALIFORNIA IS THE UNEARNED INCREMENT? DO YOU THINK IT'S THE CHECK THAT COMES IN THE MAIL? DO YOU THINK IT'S JUST HERE BECAUSE THERE'S SUNSHINE AND PALM TREES? WE HAVE TO RE-EARN CALIFORNIA THE SAME WAY THAT THE PIONEERS EARNED IT AS THEY CROSSED THE TRACKLESS DESERT IN PRAIRIE SCHOONERS OR CAME AROUND THE HORN. WE HAVE TO RE-EARN CALIFORNIA AS THOSE SAME FARMERS DID WHEN THEY TRIED TO CRACK THE RESISTANT SOIL OF THE SAN JOAQUIN.

IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR US. IN FACT, IT'S GOING TO ELIMINATE FROM OUR COLLECTIVE, SOCIAL AND CULTURAL PERSONALITY ELEMENTS OF NAÏVE HEDONISM, SUPERFICIALITY. IT'S GOING TO MAKE US THE TRUE CIVILIZATION. IN FACT, WITHOUT THIS TESTING TIME NOW, WHAT WOULD WE HAVE BEEN? WHAT WOULD WE HAVE BEEN? A PLACE FOR LOAFERS AND LAY-ABOUTS, PEOPLE RUNNING AROUND IN SUNGLASSES AND SAYING WOW. THIS PROCESS WE'RE GOING THROUGH NOW IS PART OF OUR FOUNDING TIME. FUTURE HISTORIANS WILL LOOK BACK TO THIS TIME AND SAY THERE IS WHERE THEY REDISCOVERED CALIFORNIA, IN THE MIDST OF ADVERSITY AND CONFUSION, AND THEY MADE IT A BETTER PLACE.

PATT MORRISON>> KEVIN STARR, THE STATE LIBRARIAN, THANK YOU FOR LEADING US WITH YOUR FLAGSHIP SPIRIT.

KEVIN STARR>> THANK YOU, PATT, FOR INVITING ME HERE.

VAL>> KEVIN STARR HAS WRITTEN NINE BOOKS, SIX OF WHICH ARE PART OF HIS "AMERICANS AND THE CALIFORNIA DREAM" SERIES. THE LATEST COVERS THE PERIOD BETWEEN 1940 AND 1950. IT'S TITLED "EMBATTLED DREAMS: CALIFORNIA IN WAR AND PEACE" AND IT'S DUE OUT IN JULY.

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