7/04/03

LC030704

VAL ZAVALA>> ON THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES --

ALAN SHEPARD>> ONCE YOU'VE GONE AROUND THE MOON, YOU HAVE BOTH GRAVITIES PULLING YOU, SO THEY WERE GOING TO COME BACK, NO QUESTION. WHETHER THEY WERE GOING TO GO FLYING TOWARD THE SUN OR NOT WAS THE BIG PROBLEM.

VAL>> ANOTHER LOOK AT THE REMARKABLE STORIES AND PEOPLE WE'VE ENCOUNTERED OVER OUR DOZEN YEARS ON THE AIR. JOIN US FOR ONE OF OUR FAVORITE SHOWS FROM THE VAULT, NEXT ON A SPECIAL CLASSIC EDITION OF LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATION:

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> HUNDREDS OF NOTABLE AUTHORS, CELEBRITIES, INTELLECTUALS AND PUBLIC FIGURES HAVE STOPPED BY OUR STUDIO OVER THE YEARS. MANY OF THEM HAVE LEFT A LASTING IMPRESSION ON OUR VIEWERS AND WE THINK A NUMBER OF THESE INTERVIEWS DESERVE TO BE SEEN AGAIN. SO TONIGHT WE REVISIT ONE OF OUR FAVORITE PEOPLE IN A CLASSIC EPISODE SELECTED FROM THE BEST OF LIFE AND TIMES.

THE LATE ALAN SHEPARD WAS ONE OF THE MEN TOM WOLFE WROTE ABOUT IN HIS BOOK, "THE RIGHT STUFF". SHEPARD WAS A MEMBER OF THE ORIGINAL MERCURY 7 ASTRONAUTS, THE FIRST AMERICAN IN SPACE AND ONE OF ONLY A DOZEN PEOPLE TO WALK ON THE MOON. IN 1994, HUGH HEWITT COMMEMORATED THE TWENTY-FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE FIRST LUNAR LANDING BY TALKING WITH ALAN SHEPARD. SHEPARD HAD JUST PUBLISHED A BOOK HE CO-WROTE WITH ASTRONAUT, DEKE SLAYTON, ENTITLED "MOONSHOT: THE INSIDE STORY OF AMERICA'S RACE TO THE MOON".

HUGH HEWITT>> DOES A NIGHT GO BY, ALAN SHEPARD, THAT YOU DON'T LOOK UP AT THE MOON AND THINK BACK TO YOUR WALK THERE AS A MEMBER OF APOLLO 14?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IN THAT THOUGHT. I VERY RARELY LOOK AT THE MOON WITHOUT THINKING SOMETHING ABOUT THE FLIGHT. IT'S INTERESTING. SOMETIMES I THINK ABOUT ALL THE NICE THINGS THAT HAPPENED. OTHER TIMES I THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAD GETTING THERE AND HOW WE SOLVED THE PROBLEMS AND SO ON. SO THERE'S USUALLY A DIFFERENT KIND OF A THOUGHT, BUT NEVER A TIME GOES BY WHEN I DON'T THINK ABOUT GOING UP THERE IN SOME FASHION OR ANOTHER EVERY TIME I LOOK AT IT.

HUGH HEWITT>> ONE OF THE FASCINATING PARTS OF "MOONSHOT" IS THAT A LOT OF THE UNDERSIDE OF THE SPACE PROGRAM, OR AT LEAST THAT WHICH I HAD FORGOTTEN, IS TEASED OUT. FOR EXAMPLE, THE FACT THAT YOU COULDN'T LOCK ON WITH THE LUNAR LANDING MODULE ON APOLLO 14. WERE THE GLITCHES NOT PUBLICIZED THEN OR DID I SIMPLY FORGET THEM?

ALAN SHEPARD>> I THINK THEY WERE FORGOTTEN PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF THE THREE SERIOUS PROBLEMS WE HAD. THE DOCKING PROBE, THEN THE COMPUTER PROBLEM, THEN THE LANDING RADAR WERE ALL OVERCOME IN ONE FASHION OR ANOTHER, MOST OF THEM THROUGH THE INGENUITY OF THE FOLKS ON THE GROUND HELPING US UP THERE IN SPACE. I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE REASON THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, IT DID NOT PRECLUDE A SUCCESSFUL MISSION.

HUGH HEWITT>> WE'LL COME BACK TO APOLLO 14 IN A LITTLE BIT. THERE PROBABLY ISN'T AN INDIVIDUAL BETWEEN THIRTY AND FORTY-FIVE WHO DOESN'T REMEMBER WHAT THE SPACE PROGRAM MEANT IN THE UNITED STATES. THEY WOULD STOP SCHOOL, THEY WOULD WHEEL IN THE TELEVISION, WE WOULD WATCH YOU TAKE OFF WHETHER IT WAS IN MERCURY AS THE FIRST AMERICAN IN SPACE OR IN APOLLO 14 LANDING ON THE MOON, BUT MY SENSE IS THAT IT'S MISSING NOW. A LOT OF THE GLAMOUR OF SPACE AND THE ABSORPTION OF SPACE IS GONE. IS THAT TRUE AND, IF SO, WHY DID THAT HAPPEN?

ALAN SHEPARD>> YES, I THINK THAT'S A LEGITIMATE OBSERVATION. IT SEEMS TO ME THE REASON IT HAPPENS IS THAT, IN THE EARLY DAYS, EVERYTHING WAS BRAND NEW. A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THOUGHT WE WERE CRAZY IN THOSE DAYS AND THERE WAS INTEREST BECAUSE OF THAT. THEN THE MOON PROGRAM CAME ALONG AND THAT WAS EXPLORATION AT ITS FINEST. I MEAN, IT WAS THE FINEST HOUR OF THE UNITED STATES, LEAVING THE PLANET, GOING TO ANOTHER ONE AND COMING BACK. NOW THEY'RE DOING VERY, VERY EXCITING THINGS, EXPLORING IN FIELDS OF SCIENCE. BUT UNLESS A PERSON IS A SCIENTIST OR AN ENGINEER AND SPECIFICALLY INTERESTED IN THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF HO-HUM. I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW. IT'S GOING TO TAKE PROBABLY A TRIP TO MARS TO GET THE SAME KIND OF EXCITEMENT WE HAD GOING TO THE MOON AND BACK.

HUGH HEWITT>> WELL, THAT BRINGS UP THE MARS EXPEDITION IF ONE IS OUT THERE. IT'S THE TWENTY-FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF NEAL ARMSTRONG AND BUZZ ALDRIN'S VISIT TO THE MOON AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE EXCITED AGAIN. DOES AMERICA HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO TO MARS IF IT WANTS TO?

ALAN SHEPARD>> NOT IN THE SHORT TERM, FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. ONE IS THAT IT APPEARS OBVIOUS THAT USING CHEMICAL FUELS TOTALLY TO GET THERE AND BACK IS GOING TO TAKE TOO LONG, SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO WITH SOME KIND OF NUCLEAR PROPULSION. THAT IS STILL BEING TESTED, SO THAT DELAYS THE TIME FRAME. THEN I THINK IT'S JUST GETTING MORE DIFFICULT TO GET MONEY. THE NEXT PHASE, OF COURSE, IS THE PERMANENTLY ORBITING SPACE STATION WHICH HAS BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL, TRULY AN INTERNATIONAL, SPACE STATION PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE INTEREST OF OTHER NATIONS AND PARTLY BECAUSE WE JUST NEED FINANCIAL HELP TO GET IT UP THERE.

QUITE FRANKLY, I THINK THAT ONCE IT'S UP THERE AND ONCE PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THIS SPACE STATION IS LOOKING BACK AT THE PLANET EARTH FOR THE MOST PART AND FINDING OUT ABOUT POLLUTION, FINDING OUT ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF WEATHER AND POLLUTION, OZONE, AND ALL THESE KINDS OF THINGS WHICH WE NEED TO KNOW ON A GLOBAL BASIS INSTEAD OF ON A STATE-BY-STATE CONSIDERATION, I THINK THEN WE'RE GOING TO GET SOME MODERATE INTEREST. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY, YEAH, THESE FOLKS ARE REALLY DOING SOMETHING WHICH IS HELPING US TODAY.

HUGH HEWITT>> LET'S GO BACK INTO THE GUTS OF "MOONSHOT", WHICH IS A HISTORY AND TOLD VERY WELL OF NOT ONLY THE APOLLO PROGRAM, BUT MERCURY AND GEMINI AS WELL. YOU'RE THE FIRST AMERICAN IN SPACE. A LOT OF THE DRAMA OF THAT TIME HAS BEEN CAPTURED IN THE BOOK, BUT THE RACE HAS BROUGHT BACK THAT SOVIET-AMERICAN COMPETITION. DID THAT WEIGH ON YOU CONSTANTLY AS THE FIRST AMERICAN IN SPACE THAT, YES, GAGARIN WAS UP THERE, BUT WE HAD TO CATCH UP, WE HAD TO CATCH UP?

ALAN SHEPARD>> NO, IT DID NOT. THE REASON FOR IT, I THINK, IS THAT WE REALLY DIDN'T KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT THEIR ACTUAL LAUNCH SCHEDULE IN THOSE DAYS. I DON'T THINK OUR INTELLIGENCE WAS ALL THAT GOOD. SECONDLY, AT THE WORKING LEVEL, WE WERE NOT BRIEFED ON WHERE THE SOVIETS WERE AND WHAT WE ACTUALLY KNEW, WHICH WAS KIND OF SKETCHY, SO WE DIDN'T HAVE THE FEELING DAY AFTER DAY THAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IT OR THEY'RE GOING TO BEAT US. THERE'S A CASE IN POINT HERE THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE REDSTONE DOCK IN WHICH I FLEW IN THE SUBORBITER.

WE HAD FLOWN THE CHIMP AND HE HAD DONE A GREAT JOB AND THE REDSTONE HAD DONE A GOOD JOB, BUT THERE WAS ONE LITTLE RELAY IN THE SPACECRAFT THAT FIRED THE ESCAPE ROCKET AND TOOK HIM HIGHER THAN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO GO AND FURTHER OUT OVER THE OCEAN. WE SAID, WELL, THAT'S GREAT. EVERYTHING ELSE WAS FINE, LET'S GO AHEAD AND MAN THE VERY NEXT REDSTONE. THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT IT INCLUDING VON BRAUN HIMSELF AND THE TOP PEOPLE IN NASA. HAD THERE BEEN ANY STRONG QUESTION THEN, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE SEEN IT BECAUSE THEY RESISTED WHAT WE WANTED TO DO. THEY SAID, NO, WE'RE GOING TO FLY ONE MORE. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE IT ABSOLUTELY SAFE AND THEN YOU GET TO GO. HAD WE MANNED THAT FIRST ONE, WE WOULD HAVE BEATEN THE SOVIETS BY A FEW WEEKS INSTEAD OF HAVING THEM BEAT US BY A FEW WEEKS.

HUGH HEWITT>> HOW MUCH DID THE TECHNICIANS AND THE ELECTRICIANS AND THE ENGINEERS LISTEN TO THE ACTUAL ASTRONAUTS, THE TEST PILOTS, AND HOW MUCH DID YOU HAVE TO FORCE-FEED YOUR REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE INTO THE PROGRAM?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, IT HAS VARIED. IN THE EARLY DAYS, IT WAS RELATIVELY EASY FOR US TO MAKE AN IMPORT AND HAVE IT RECOGNIZED AND SOMETIMES ACTED UPON, SOMETIMES NOT. OF COURSE, WHEN WE LOOKED AT THE NOSECONE AND REALIZED IT DIDN'T HAVE ANY WINDOW IN FRONT LIKE FIGHTER PILOTS HAVE IN THEIR AIRPLANES, WE SAY, HEY, WHAT DO WE DO IF THE AUTOMATIC SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK? THEY SAID, WELL, YOU'VE GOT A LITTLE PERISCOPE. SO WE TRIED IN THE SIMULATOR USING A PERISCOPE. WHEN PITCH WAS PITCH, BUT YAW WAS ROLL AND ROLL WAS YAH, WE SAID, NO, THERE'S NO WAY. SO THEY FINALLY AGREED AFTER SEVERAL MONTHS OF DISCUSSION TO PUT THE WINDOW IN. OF COURSE, WHEN COOPER FLEW, HE HAD A GYRO FAILURE AND HAD TO USE THE WINDOW. A LITTLE BIT EASIER IN THOSE DAYS. AGAIN, I'M NOT SURE WHERE THE CASE OF THE APOLLO 1 IGNITION THEY WERE IGNORING US. IT WAS JUST A QUESTION OF BEING A LITTLE BIT OVER-CONFIDENT.

HUGH HEWITT>> THE ANNIVERSARY OF APOLLO 11, IN FACT, THE FOURTH GREAT MILESTONE IN THE SPACE PROGRAM WHEN ARMSTRONG AND ALDRIN GO TO THE MOON AND COLLINS CIRCLES AROUND SUPPORTING THEM, OCCURS TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AFTER BEGINNING OF THE PEEL-DOWN OF THE VIETNAM WAR, TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AFTER THE INAUGURATION OF NIXON, AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF KENNEDY AND MARTIN LUTHER KING. WAS THERE ANY KIND OF EXCHANGE BETWEEN THESE TERRIBLE SOCIAL PROBLEMS GOING ON AND THE WORLD OF NASA OR DID YOU JUST SORT OF EXIST AS A BUBBLE INTO WHICH AMERICANS COULD INVEST THEIR HOPES WHILE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY (LAUGHTER) WENT TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET?

ALAN SHEPARD>> (LAUGHTER) I THINK IT'S THE LATTER CASE, QUITE FRANKLY. I DON'T HAVE A FEELING THERE WAS ANY POLITICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WHAT WE WERE DOING IN OUR BASIC RESEARCH PROGRAM, PUSHING OUT THE FRONTIERS, SO TO SPEAK, TO WHAT WAS GOING ON POLITICALLY. SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID THAT KENNEDY'S DECISION TO GO TO THE MOON WAS A POLITICAL DECISION BECAUSE OF THE BAY OF PIGS WHICH HAD RECENTLY OCCURRED AND SO ON. I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT. I WAS THERE WHEN KENNEDY'S SCIENCE PEOPLE THREE WEEKS BEFORE THE FLIGHT WERE COMING DOWN QUESTIONING WHETHER WE SHOULD REALLY GO OR NOT AND FINALLY AGREEING, YEAH, MAYBE YOU GUYS CAN GO AFTER ALL.

I WAS THERE WHEN KENNEDY GAVE ME THE MEDAL AND SAID, FOLKS, WE'RE CHANGING THE SCHEDULE TODAY. WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A MEETING BACK HERE AT THE OVAL OFFICE AT THE END OF THE DAY AND TALK ABOUT WHERE WE'RE GOING NEXT. I WAS THERE WHEN, THREE WEEKS LATER, WITH GREAT ENTHUSIASM, HE SAID WE ARE GOING TO THE MOON BEFORE THE END OF THE DECADE. SO I DON'T THINK IT WAS POLITICAL. HE WAS WRAPPED UP. HE RECOGNIZED IT AS A NATIONAL PROJECT, NATIONAL PRIDE, BUT THERE WAS NOTHING POLITICAL ABOUT THAT DECISION.

HUGH HEWITT>> BY THE TIME THAT YOU WALK ON THE MOON, BACK TO APOLLO 14 FOR A SECOND, YOUR MISSION, HAD POLITICS INTERFERED WITH YOUR LIFE? HAD IT CHANGED YOU AS AN ASTRONAUT BY THAT POINT WITH THE COUNTRY GOING THROUGH VIETNAM AND THE SUPERPOWER COMPETITION HEATING UP?

ALAN SHEPARD>> THE ONLY THING, WE HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH POLITICIANS THAT WANTED TO COME DOWN AND VISIT US BECAUSE SOME OF THEM THOUGHT WE WERE CRAZY (LAUGHTER), SO WE HAD TO SHOW THEM AROUND AND TAKE TIME OUT TO DO THAT. BUT THERE WAS NOWHERE NEAR THE PRESSURE IN EXPLAINING THE BUDGET IN THOSE DAYS AS THERE WAS LATER ON.

HUGH HEWITT>> IN THE BOOK, THE STORY IS TOLD OF YOUR TEN-YEAR LAYOFF DUE TO, I BELIEVE, INNER EAR DISORDER OF SOME SORT, AND YOU WANTED TO BE ON APOLLO 13, FOR WHICH NOW A MOVIE IS BEING MADE. YOU CAME BACK AND THE FLIGHT SURGEON SAID YOU WERE OKAY AND NASA PUT YOU BACK IN THE PROGRAM AND YOU WERE PUT ON 14. 13 BLEW UP MIDWAY, GREAT DRAMA. MY FIRST QUESTION IS KIND OF LIGHT. WHAT DO YOU THINK IN CASTING TOM HANKS AS LOVELL WAS ANNOUNCED?

ALAN SHEPARD>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, I THINK HE'LL PROBABLY DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB. I THINK HE'LL PROBABLY GET UP THERE SAFELY AND BACK BETTER THAN LOVELL DID BECAUSE HE'S GOT LOVELL HELPING AND TELLING HIM HOW TO DO IT. BUT THAT'S A GREAT STORY BECAUSE, AS YOU POINT OUT, WHEN I WAS UNGROUNDED, SLAYTON AND I WERE IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING AND IMMEDIATELY PUT ME AND MY CREW ON 13. THEY SENT THE LIST TO WASHINGTON. THEY SAID, NO WAY, THIS IS TOO MUCH OF A POLITICAL PROBLEM. WE'LL MAKE A DEAL WITH YOU. GIVE US ANOTHER CREW FOR 13 AND WE'LL LET SHEPARD HAVE 14. SO EVERY TIME I SEE LOVELL NOWADAYS, HE'LL SAY, YOU KNOW, AL, IF YOU WANT APOLLO 13 BACK, YOU CAN HAVE IT (LAUGHTER).

HUGH HEWITT>> WELL, IT BLOWS UP AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO RECAPTURE. THE BOOK DOES THIS, THE DRAMA OF THOSE FOUR DAYS. HOW LONG DID YOU DOUBT THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GET BACK?

ALAN SHEPARD>> I THINK WE HAD DOUBTS RIGHT UP TO THE VERY END, REALLY. THE PROCESS AND THE MOST CRITICAL, OF COURSE, WAS NOT GETTING THEM BACK TO EARTH BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU'VE GONE AROUND THE MOON, YOU HAVE BOTH GRAVITIES PULLING YOU, SO WE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO COME BACK, THERE WAS NO QUESTION. WHETHER THEY WERE GOING TO GO FLYING TOWARD THE SUN OR NOT WAS THE BIG PROBLEM. YOU CANNOT IN THAT SITUATION MAKE JUST ONE CORRECTION AND THEN SAY THAT'S THE RIGHT ONE. YOU'VE GOT TO CONTINUE TO MAKE CORRECTIONS ALL THE WAY AND IT WAS JUST A FUNCTION OF WHETHER OR NOT THE ELECTRICAL POWER WOULD HOLD UP SO WE COULD CONTINUE TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEM AND BRING THEM IN AT THE RIGHT TIME. IT WAS A REAL CLIFF-HANGER PRETTY MUCH ALL THE WAY THROUGH.

HUGH HEWITT>> NOW LET'S TURN TO YOUR MISSION OF APOLLO 14. THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS I'D LIKE TO ASK OF YOU AND WE DON'T HAVE AN ENDLESS AMOUNT OF TIME HERE. LET'S START WITH THE ONE THAT GOES UNANSWERED. YOU LOSE YOUR RADAR. AFTER YOU FINALLY GET TO DOCK AND YOU HAVE TO RUN THE DANG THING INTO IT AT MAXIMUM SPEED, YOU'RE GOING DOWN IN THE LUNAR MODULE AND YOU LOSE YOUR RADAR AND THERE'S A COUNTDOWN GOING ON AT NASA. WHY DON'T YOU PICK UP THE STORY THERE ABOUT WHAT THAT CUTOFF IS THAT'S GOING ON?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, ACTUALLY WHEN WE COME DOWN IN THE FINAL DESCENT TO THE LUNAR SURFACE, WE'RE ON OUR BACK. BASICALLY, WE'RE LOOKING AWAY FROM THE SURFACE. OUR FEET ARE GOING THIS WAY BECAUSE THE ENGINE IS FIRING THAT WAY. WE DON'T REALLY PITCH OVER TO LOOK AT IT VISUALLY UNTIL YOU GET DOWN AROUND 8,000 OR 9,000 FEET. NOW THE GROUND RULE IS THAT, WELL, THERE MAY BE ERRORS IN NAVIGATION AND YOU MAY NOT BE EXACTLY WHERE YOU THINK YOU ARE IN TERMS OF ALTITUDE, SO THE GROUND RULE SAYS THAT, IF YOU DON'T HAVE LANDING RADAR TELLING YOU EXACTLY HOW FAR YOU ARE FROM THE SURFACE AT 13,000, THEN IT'S BACK INTO ORBIT AGAIN, NO LANDING.

WHEN WE WERE COMING DOWN AROUND 20,000 FEET OR SO AND WE STILL WEREN'T GETTING THE LANDING RADAR, THERE WAS A LOT OF CONSTERNATION BECAUSE WE KNEW THE GROUND RULE AND, ALTHOUGH THE GROUND WAS COACHING US AND TELLING US, YOU GUYS, REMEMBER, IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT AT 13,000, YOU'RE ON YOUR WAY BACK, WE SAID, YEAH, WE KNOW ALL THAT STUFF.

HUGH HEWITT>> WELL, THE BOOK IS AMBIGUOUS. WOULD YOU HAVE LANDED ANYWAY? THERE IS A QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT YOU WOULD HAVE BROKEN WITH THE CODE THERE. WOULD YOU HAVE LANDED ANYWAY IF THE RADAR HAD NOT COME BACK ON WHEN IT DID?

ALAN SHEPARD>> HUGH, WHAT IS YOUR NEXT QUESTION? (LAUGHTER)

HUGH HEWITT>> (LAUGHTER) OKAY. THAT'S ONE WE'LL LEAVE FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO DEBATE WITH ALAN SHEPARD. LET'S MOVE ON TO ON THE MOON. A LOT OF IMAGES OF ON THE MOON ARE YOU JUST SORT OF BOUNCE AROUND AND PICK UP A COUPLE OF ROCKS. AGAIN, I WAS STRUCK AT CLIMBING A MOUNTAIN ON THE MOON. IT'S HARD WORK.

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS ONE SURPRISE WHICH WE HAD. WE REALLY HADN'T COUNTED ON THAT. WE'D DONE AN AWFUL LOT OF PRACTICE WITH THE SUIT AND BACKPACK AND TANKS AND EVERYTHING IN THE SANDS DOWN IN FLORIDA. THEY'RE PRETTY LEVEL, PRETTY FLAT. NOW THIS CRATER WHICH WE WERE SUPPOSED TO CLIMB UP TO THE RIM HAD A SLIGHT RISE TOWARD THE END, MAYBE A TEN PERCENT RISE. IT WASN'T ALL THAT BAD, BUT AS WE STARTED CLIMBING UP, OUR FEET STARTED SLIPPING BACK JUST LIKE WE WERE CLIMBING A SAND DUNE OUT ON THE BEACH. AS A RESULT, WE WERE SLOWING DOWN. WE WERE GETTING A LITTLE BIT WINDED, USING MORE OXYGEN THAN WE HAD PLANNED. WE FINALLY HAD TO LIFT THE LITTLE BUGGY THAT WE WERE DRAGGING AROUND BECAUSE WE HAD TO BE UP THERE BEFORE THEY HAD AUTOMOBILES. THOSE GUYS THAT WENT UP THERE LATER HAD THOSE FANCY --

HUGH HEWITT>> -- LIKE CARS, LIGHT LIFTING.

ALAN SHEPARD>> YEAH, WE WERE STILL DRAGGING THIS THING AROUND. SO WE WERE GETTING TIRED. WE WERE HAVING DIFFICULTY IN DETERMINING EXACTLY WHERE WE WERE WITH RESPECT TO THE RIM BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE GRAND CANYON, BUT IT WAS MUCH SMOOTHER THAN THAT. WE REALLY COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT WAS. BUT WE KNEW THAT OUR OBJECTIVES WERE THOSE BIG ROCKS RIGHT THERE AT THE RIM BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE THROWN OUT, THEORETICALLY, GENERIC ROCKS --

HUGH HEWITT>> -- ANCIENT, ANCIENT, ANCIENT, RIGHT? TWO BILLIONS YEARS. THAT'S WHY THEY WANTED THE OLDEST ONES.

ALAN SHEPARD>> 4.3 BILLION, YEAH. SO AS TIRED AS WE WERE AND AS DISAPPOINTED AS WE WERE IN NOT ACTUALLY STANDING AT THE EDGE OF THIS CRATER AND TELLING THE WORLD WHAT A MARVELOUS SIGHT IT WAS, WE TOOK UPON THE TASK OF COLLECTING SAMPLES FROM THE BIG BOULDERS. OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE REALLY GENERIC ROCKS.

HUGH HEWITT>> YOU GET BACK TO THE MODULE AND YOU'RE TIRED AND HOUSTON IS EXPECTING YOU TO GET UP AND LEAVE. YOU PULL OUT A SIX IRON AND YOU HIT A COUPLE OF GOLF BALLS. NOW THIS, I THINK, IS ONE OF MORE CHARMING EPISODES. IT CERTAINLY IS TO A GOLFER. WHY A SIX IRON?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU EXACTLY WHY. WHEN I THOUGHT TO MYSELF SEVERAL MONTHS AHEAD OF TIME THAT I'M GOING TO BE ABLE TO HIT THE BALL SIX TIMES AS FAR ON THE MOON, THERE'S NO ATMOSPHERE, SO IT WILL NOT SLICE OR HOOK. IT'S GOING TO GO OUT STRAIGHT. I SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE'S GOT TO BE A WAY TO DO IT. I LOOKED AROUND AND REALIZED THAT WE HAD A HANDLE WITH SORT OF A COLLAPSIBLE TYPE HANDLE. NORMALLY WE'D SNAP A SCOOP ON THE END OF THAT HANDLE AND SCOOP DUST SAMPLES OF THE SURFACE BECAUSE IT WAS SO TOUGH TO BEND OVER, PUT THEM IN A LITTLE BAG, MAKE A MARK AND SO ON. SO I MEASURED THAT AND IT WAS THE SAME AS THE LENGTH OF THE SHAFT OF A NUMBER SIX IRON. ENGINEER ALL THE WAY (LAUGHTER).

HUGH HEWITT>> (LAUGHTER) OKAY, WHAT KIND OF BALL DID YOU HIT?

ALAN SHEPARD>> REGULAR GOLF BALLS.

HUGH HEWITT>> IS THERE A TITLEIST UP THERE ON THE MOON?

ALAN SHEPARD>> I WON'T TELL ANYBODY. THAT'S ONE QUESTION I WILL NOT ANSWER. I HAVE NEVER TOLD A SOUL.

HUGH HEWITT>> I COULD JUST IMAGINE IF ALIENS ARRIVED THERE AND THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE NAME OF THAT BALL IS AND WHAT IT STANDS FOR (LAUGHTER).

ALAN SHEPARD>> THE CLUB WAS COLLAPSIBLE. WE BROUGHT IT BACK AND NOW THE U.S. GOLF ASSOCIATION HAS IT IN THEIR MUSEUM OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK.

HUGH HEWITT>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S TWO QUESTIONS I HAVEN'T AN ANSWER. NOW WE'LL GET INTO THIS TOUGH STUFF ABOUT POLITICS HERE. THEN WE'LL COME BACK TO THE OTHER TWO. FUTURE OF SPACE EXPLORATION. THE END OF THE SUPERPOWER COMPETITION BETWEEN THE USSR AND THE U.S. HAS CHANGED THINGS, I THINK, DRAMATICALLY. DO YOU SEE THAT AS A BLOW TO THE MOMENTUM IN THE SPACE PROGRAM THAT WE DO NOT HAVE A SOVIET UNION TO SPUR US ON?

ALAN SHEPARD>> I REALLY DON'T. I THINK THAT THE NATIONAL PRIDE IS STILL THERE AND I THINK WHEN THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT GETTING MONEY APPROPRIATED FOR THAT KIND OF RESEARCH, THE SPACE STATION, THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET SOMETHING AND THEY'RE REALLY GOING TO VOTE FOR IT FOR THAT REASON. THEY KNOW THAT RESEARCH IS GOOD, THEY KNOW IT'S GOOD FOR THE NATION AND THERE IS A SENSE OF NATIONAL PRIDE BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE HAS DONE AS WELL WE HAVE IN SPACE. EVEN THOUGH THE SOVIETS WERE THERE, THEY HAVEN'T DONE AS WELL AS WE HAVE. SO I DON'T THINK THAT THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE. I THINK, IN FACT, THAT WE'RE GOING TO SAVE MONEY BY USING HELP FROM THE EUROPEANS, THE CANADIANS, THE JAPANESE AND NOW THE SOVIETS AND THAT MAY MAKE IT A LITTLE BIT EASIER TO SELL THE SPACE STATION THIS YEAR.

HUGH HEWITT>> HAS THE NATURE OF BEING AN ASTRONAUT CHANGED FROM THE DAYS WHEN YOU WERE AN INSTANT HERO, JUST ADD WATER, AND TEST PILOTS AND ALL THAT SORT OF STUFF? BUT NOW THERE ARE SHUTTLES GOING UP ALL THE TIME. THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF DANGER, OBVIOUSLY, WITH THE TRAGEDY OF THE CHALLENGER, BUT HAS IT CHANGED FROM BEING WHAT EVERY LITTLE BOY AND MANY LITTLE GIRLS WANTED TO BE WHEN THEY GREW UP TO NOW IT'S --

ALAN SHEPARD>> NOT AT ALL. WE HAVE JUST AS MANY EXCITED PEOPLE DOWN THERE AT NASA TODAY AS WE HAD IN THE EARLY DAYS. OF COURSE, THERE ARE DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES. WE HAVE SCIENTISTS, WE HAVE ENGINEERS AND WE HAVE PILOTS, BUT THEY'RE JUST AS MOTIVATED, JUST AS DEDICATED, JUST AS ANXIOUS TO GET UP THERE AND FLY AND DO THEIR EXPERIMENT, TO DO THEIR PILOTING. LIKE THE RECENT MARVELOUS JOB THOSE FOLKS DID WITH THAT RADAR, THAT RADAR MAPPING PROJECT, ALL AROUND THE MIDDLE. IT'S REALLY GREAT STUFF THEY'VE DONE THERE, SO THEY'RE JUST AS EXCITED ABOUT IT AS WE ARE. THERE IS ONE EXCEPTION. THEY'RE NOT QUITE AS SMART AS WE WERE BACK IN THE EARLY DAYS.

HUGH HEWITT>> ARE THEY STILL TEST PILOTS BEFORE THEY BECOME ASTRONAUTS NOW OR ARE THEY TRAINED EXCLUSIVELY FOR THIS?

ALAN SHEPARD>> ONLY A MUCH SMALLER PERCENTAGE OF PILOTS. OF A CREW OF SEVEN, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE TWO PILOTS AND FIVE SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS.

HUGH HEWITT>> LOOKING BACKWARDS AS WELL TOWARDS WHAT TOM WOLFE DID FOR THE PROGRAM WITH "THE RIGHT STUFF", DID YOU WELCOME THAT BOOK AND THEN THAT MOVIE? DID THAT CAPTURE WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE, OF "MOONSHOT", OF COURSE, BUT DID YOU LIKE THE ATTENTION?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, WE HAD SOME PROBLEMS WITH THAT. IN THE FIRST PLACE, NONE OF US TALKED WITH TOM WOLFE. NONE OF US TALKED WITH THE FOLKS WHO MADE THE MOVIE. EVERYTHING THEY WROTE ABOUT US AS INDIVIDUALS WAS HEARSAY, THE MOTHER OF THE FOLKS IN THE PROGRAM, SO IT LITERALLY WAS A FICTION AS MUCH AS IT WAS A DOCUMENTARY. NOW THE STORYLINE IS EXCITING. IT'S ENTERTAINING. WE GOT A LOT OF RECRUITS FROM THAT. A LOT OF FOLKS WERE INTERESTED IN THE SPACE PROGRAM. BUT THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENCES. WHEN PEOPLE READ OUR BOOK, THEY'LL READ SOME THINGS THAT WERE NOT NECESSARILY DISCUSSED IN THE BOOK "THE RIGHT STUFF". THEY WERE FICTION AND WE'RE THE REAL THING.

HUGH HEWITT>> THIS GOES FORWARD A LOT, A LOT FURTHER THAN WE THOUGHT. OF THE REMAINING MERCURY 7, DO YOU GATHER ON A REGULAR BASIS AND, IF SO, IS THERE ANYTHING UPCOMING ON THE TWENTY-FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF MAN'S FIRST WALK?

ALAN SHEPARD>> YES, WE DO. WE HAVE AN ANNUAL MEETING. IT'S BASED UPON THE FACT THAT EIGHT YEARS AGO WE ESTABLISHED A FOUNDATION FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING SCHOLARSHIPS TO COLLEGE SCIENCE STUDENTS. IT'S CALLED THE MERCURY 7 FOUNDATION. I'M THE PRESIDENT OF THE FOUNDATION. WE ASK VARIOUS COLLEGES AROUND THE COUNTRY TO GIVE US THE NAMES OF TWO OR THREE SOPHOMORES WHO ARE BECOMING JUNIORS SO YOU'RE PRETTY SURE THEY'RE GOING TO BE IN SCIENCE OF SOME KIND AND THAT INCLUDES THE LIFE SCIENCES. WE GRANT THIS YEAR $7,500 PER STUDENT. WE ARE GIVING AWAY $150,000, SO TWENTY STUDENTS WILL BE MERCURY SCHOLARS FROM THIS FOUNDATION. WE HAVE ANNUAL MEETINGS AND THAT'S THE REASON WE GET TOGETHER.

HUGH HEWITT>> ALAN, WE ARE OUT OF TIME. I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ONE LAST QUESTION. BLUE SKY, OF COURSE. A CENTURY FROM NOW, WHAT WILL NOT JUST AMERICANS, BUT MEN AND WOMEN IN GENERAL, HAVE ACCOMPLISHED IN SPACE? WHAT DO YOU SEE IN A CENTURY?

ALAN SHEPARD>> WELL, OF COURSE, WE WILL HAVE LANDED ON THE PLANETS BY THAT TIME. I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING SOME WORK ON NUCLEAR FUSION, RECOGNIZING THAT ONE OF THE ELEMENTS IT'S LOOKS VERY GOOD FOR PLANE REACTION. TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY IS HELIUM 3. I SUSPECT THERE WILL BE A MINING OPERATION ON THE MOON COLLECTING HELIUM 3 SO WE CAN HAVE AN INFINITE SUPPLY OF CLEAN POWER IN THE FUTURE. THERE WILL PROBABLY SOME COLONIES UP THERE. IT MAY TURN OUT LIKE THE BRITS. WE MAY HAVE OVERCROWDING IN OUR PRISONS AND WE MAY WANT TO SEND THEM UP TO THE MOON INSTEAD OF TO AUSTRALIA (LAUGHTER).

HUGH HEWITT>> I CHEATED. LAST QUESTION. IS SOMEONE WAITING TO FIND US WHEN WE GET OUT THERE?

ALAN SHEPARD>> I DON'T KNOW, I DON'T KNOW. I TOLD A COMEDIAN ABOUT THE STORY ABOUT THE GOLF BALLS LEAVING UP THERE. HE LOOKS AT ME AND SAID, DID THEY EVER FIND YOUR GOLF BALLS UP THERE? I SAID, "THEY?"

HUGH HEWITT>> (LAUGHTER) ALAN SHEPARD, AMERICA'S FIRST MAN IN SPACE AND AUTHOR OF "MOONSHOT", THANK YOU FOR BEING ON LIFE AND TIMES.

ALAN SHEPARD>> MY PLEASURE.

VAL>> ALAN SHEPARD PASSED AWAY IN 1998 AT THE AGE OF SEVENTY-FOUR. HE WROTE IN HIS BOOK THAT, DURING HIS LUNAR WALK, HE WAS SO TOUCHED BY HOW BEAUTIFUL AND FRAGILE EARTH LOOKED FROM THE MOON THAT HE CRIED.

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