7/8/03

LC030708

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

AN INSIDER'S LOOK AT THE KILLING FIELDS OF LOS ANGELES WHERE GANG VIOLENCE HAS MADE US AMERICA'S MURDER CAPITOL.

>> LAST NIGHT, A YOUNG BROTHER GOT KILLED RIGHT HERE. WHEN I WENT TO WORK LAST NIGHT, I TALKED TO HIM WHEN HE WAS OUT HERE. I CAME HOME FROM WORK AND THEY WERE WRAPPING HIS BODY UP IN A BODY BAG.

VAL>> AND THEN, WHAT'S BETTER THAN EBAY? HOW ABOUT ONE OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S BIGGEST AND OLDEST AUCTIONS? WE'LL GO THERE IN SEARCH OF UNDISCOVERED TREASURES.

ALL THIS AND MORE STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> HELLO, I'M VAL ZAVALA REPORTING FROM THE CRENSHAW DISTRICT IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES. THIS IS A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT HAS A LOT TO BE PROUD OF. IT WEATHERED THE RIOTS MORE THAN A DECADE AGO AND HAS COME BACK IN MANY WAYS EVEN BETTER THAN BEFORE, BUT ONE THING CONTINUES TO THREATEN THIS AND ALL THE NEIGHBORHOODS IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES: DEADLY GANG VIOLENCE.

A RECORD NUMBER OF GANG KILLINGS ACROSS THIS AREA HAVE MADE LOS ANGELES AMERICA'S MURDER CAPITOL. TONIGHT WE GIVE YOU AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE VIOLENCE THROUGH THE EYES OF A FORMER GANG MEMBER NAMED "APOLLO". HE'S TAKEN A CAMERA TO PLACES FEW OF US EVER SEE. IN FACT, SOME OF THE IMAGES MAY DISTURB YOU. THIS IS APOLLO'S STORY AS ORIGINALLY REPORTED BY THE CHANNEL ONE NETWORK.

[FILM CLIP]

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> MY NAME IS JOHN PAYNE, BUT HERE I'M KNOWN AS APOLLO. I'M A FORMER GANG LEADER AND THIS IS WHERE I GREW UP. IT'S CALLED BALDWIN VILLAGE, BUT WE CALL IT THE JUNGLE. IT'S A WORKING CLASS NEIGHBORHOOD IN SOUTH CENTRAL LOS ANGELES WHERE MANY PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO EARN A LIVING AND RAISE THEIR FAMILIES, BUT IT'S ALSO A VIOLENT BATTLEFIELD FOR RIVAL GANGS.

[FILM CLIP]

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> THE JUNGLE. IT'S ONLY FIVE MILES FROM BEVERLY HILLS, BUT THE MURDER RATE IN SOUTH CENTRAL LOS ANGELES IS DOUBLE THAT OF BOGOTÁ, COLUMBIA AS HUNDREDS OF RIVAL GANGS BATTLE FOR TERRITORY.

>> YEAH, WE JUST LOST TWO SOLDIERS, BUT FOR ALL THE AFTERMATH INCLUDING THE HOMIES WE JUST LOST, THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE ABOUT TEN OR FIFTEEN OF THEIR HOMIES, SO THEY REALLY DON'T COME AND SHOW IN THE LONG RUN.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> THOUGH GANG VIOLENCE HAS FLUCTUATED OVER THE YEARS, LIVING IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, I'VE KNOWN DOZENS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED.

>> LAST NIGHT, A YOUNG BROTHER GOT KILLED RIGHT HERE. WHEN I WENT TO WORK LAST NIGHT, I TALKED TO HIM WHEN HE WAS OUT HERE. WHEN I CAME HOME FROM WORK, THEY WERE WRAPPING HIS BODY UP IN A BODY BAG.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> AS OF THE BEGINNING OF THIS YEAR, THE MURDER RATE IN LOS ANGELES IS OVER FIFTY PERCENT HIGHER THAN IT WAS JUST FOUR YEARS AGO AND IT'S NOT JUST GANG MEMBERS WHO ARE BEING ATTACKED. ONE CHILD LOST HIS LIFE HERE LAST NIGHT AND THREE OTHERS WERE SERIOUSLY WOUNDED.

>> ABOUT 12:30 LAST NIGHT, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HEARD A HAIL OF BULLETS RUNNING OUT. THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW WHEN IT STOPPED, BEVERLY STARTED SCREAMING, "THE BABY'S BEEN HIT, THE BABY'S BEEN HIT." I JUST YELLED OUT THE WINDOW FOR THE NEIGHBORS TO CALL 911.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> FOR MANY HERE, YOU'RE SIMPLY BORN INTO A GANG.

"BOO">> I EVENTUALLY GREW UP IN THE GANGS. I GREW UP IN THIS. I MEAN, I'VE BEEN AROUND GANGS ALL MY LIFE SINCE BIRTH. YOU KNOW, I SEEN, DONE IT AND BEEN IN ALL. I BEEN IN JUVENILE HALL AT THE AGE OF TWELVE.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> THIS IS "BOO". HE KNOWS ABOUT DEATH ALL TOO WELL. HE LOST BOTH PARENTS TO THE STREETS.

"BOO">> WHAT'S BASICALLY GOING ON WITH THE MURDERS HERE NOW TODAY IS JUST STUPIDITY TO ME BECAUSE A LOT OF US KIDS OUT HERE, WE JUST AT WAR. WE'RE OUT HERE JUST KILLING EACH OTHER.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> A LARGE NUMBER OF THE WOUNDED WIND UP HERE AT THE MARTIN LUTHER KING DREW TRAUMA UNIT. MANY OF THE DOCTORS SENT TO THE WAR IN IRAQ TRAINED HERE BECAUSE THE MILITARY BELIEVES THEY WERE ABLE TO TREAT THE SAME INJURIES THEY WOULD SEE IN A WAR ZONE.

>> HOW MANY SHOTS DID YOU HEAR?

>> I HEARD LIKE SEVEN OR EIGHT.

>> YOU EVER BEEN SHOT BEFORE?

>> NO.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> WHAT PERCENTAGE OF YOUR CASES IS GANG-RELATED?

DR. JOSE VARAMONTES>> I WOULD SAY THE MAJORITY MAYBE ABOUT SEVENTY-FIVE PERCENT OF GUNSHOT WOUND VICTIMS ARE GANG-RELATED.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> SO YOU'VE BEEN HERE FOUR YEARS. HAS THERE BEEN AN INCREASE IN VIOLENCE?

DR. JOSE VARAMONTES>> DEFINITELY AN INCREASE IN VIOLENCE.

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JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> HOW MANY GUNSHOT VICTIMS A MONTH COME THROUGH HERE?

>> SOMETIMES WE GET UP TO THREE OR FOUR GUNSHOTS A DAY AND THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN WE HAD THREE OR FOUR IN ONE HOUR.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> THE STAFF THAT WORK HERE SEES THE WORST OF THE STREET WARS. IN THE STREETS, BULLETS DON'T CARE HOW OLD YOU ARE.

>> WE'RE TREATING A SIX-MONTH-OLD WITH A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE HEAD AND A SEVEN-YEAR-OLD WITH A GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE CHEST AND THAT ONE IS IN FULL ARREST.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> AS I WATCHED THEM BRING IN THIS YOUNG BOY, I SOON REALIZED IT WAS ISHMAIL. I KNEW HIS FAMILY VERY WELL.

[FILM CLIP]

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> AT 1:02 A.M., ISHMAIL TOOK HIS LAST BREATH.

>> HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO THE MOTHERS?

>> I JUST PRAY.

DR. TARA WILSON>> NOW THIS JUST ABSOLUTELY MAKES NO SENSE. I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYTHING SOMEBODY COULD HAVE DONE TO YOU THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO KILL AN EIGHT-YEAR-OLD KID. HE HAS TWO VERY LARGE HOLES IN HIS BODY. HE WENT TO SCHOOL TODAY AND HE WENT TO SLEEP TONIGHT AND HE DIDN'T WAKE UP.

VAL>> WE JUST HEARD APOLLO TELL US WHY SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE GET CAUGHT UP IN GANGS. THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE OF THE STORY AS WELL. THE STORY OF VICTIMS, SOME GUILTY, SOME INNOCENT, BUT ALL OF THEM FACING THE SAME FATE. APOLLO CONTINUES HIS LOOK AT THE KILLING FIELDS OF LOS ANGELES AND, ONCE AGAIN, YOU MAY FIND SOME IMAGES DISTURBING.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> FOR MANY PEOPLE IN THE JUNGLE, GOING TO FUNERALS ARE A PART OF EVERYDAY LIFE. SOMETIMES THERE ARE EVEN TWO FUNERALS A WEEK. THIS YOUNG MAN'S NAME IS MARCELL. HE WAS ONLY NINETEEN WHEN HE GOT KILLED IN THE GANG WAR.

TWANA FRANKLIN>> THIS IS THE LAST TIME THAT HE WAS ALIVE HERE. THEY WOULD NOT TELL ME THE EXACT AMOUNT OF TIMES HE WAS SHOT, BUT THEY DID TELL ME THAT IT WAS OVER FIVE TIMES.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> SO THE QUESTION IS, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE IN A GANG WHEN IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT IT OFTEN LEADS TO JAIL OR DEATH? EVEN LITTLE KIDS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY DON'T FIND IT APPEALING.

>> I JUST DON'T WANT TO GET PUT IN THE GANG.

>> I JUST DON'T WANT TO BE A VICTIM.

>> I JUST DON'T WANT TO GET KILLED.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> I WAS JUST LIKE THEM AT THAT AGE, BUT AS I GOT OLDER, I JOINED A GANG CALLED THE BLOODS. I WANTED TO BE A PART OF SOMETHING AND I WANTED PROTECTION. THIS IS ONE OF THE KEYS TO UNDERSTANDING A GANG. THE FEAR OF BEING THE NEXT VICTIM IS WHAT MOTIVATES MANY TO JOIN. FOR EXAMPLE, THIS IS THE STORY OF KEITH, ALSO KNOWN AS "ACE".

TERRI BIRDSONG-HOOPER>> HE WAS YOUNGER AND HE WASN'T A GANG MEMBER OR ANYTHING. HE HAD THE FELLOWS FROM THE STREETS ON ONE SIDE, THEN HE HAD THE POLICE ON THE OTHER SIDE. HE WAS LIKE ALL I WANT TO DO IS PLAY BASKETBALL AND RIDE MY BIKE. THERE WAS A LOT ON HIM, YOU KNOW, WHICH WAY WAS HE GOING TO TURN?

LARRY HOOPER>> ACE STRUGGLED TO AVOID GANG LIFE AND THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED. KEITH AND SOME OF HIS FRIENDS WERE COMING OUT OF A MINI-MART OVER IN THE JUNGLE AND HE WAS HIT BY THREE BULLETS.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> ACE WAS SIMPLY AT THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME WHEN HE WAS SHOT.

LARRY HOOPER>> HE WAS AFRAID. HE WOULD NEVER ADMIT HE WAS SCARED, BUT I THINK THAT'S WHY HE STARTED GANGBANGING THEN BECAUSE OF --

TERRI BIRDSONG-HOOPER>> -- FOR THE PROTECTION.

LARRY HOOPER>> FOR THE PROTECTION.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> WHEN ACE RECOVERED, HE JOINED A GANG. YOU MIGHT THINK THAT SOMEONE WHO WAS A VICTIM OF GANG VIOLENCE WOULD WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH GANGS, BUT IN THE AREA WHERE THERE ARE MANY GANGS, SOME PEOPLE JOIN FOR THE SENSE OF PROTECTION BECAUSE, IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO THEM, THE GANG WILL RETALIATE.

"BOO">> THERE'D BE MORE SHOOTINGS, YOU KNOW, MORE COMBAT. THAT'S WHAT STARTS THE WARS WHEN YOU SHOOT SOMEBODY THEY LOVE, SOMEBODY THEY REALLY RESPECT, SOMEBODY THEY FEEL HIGHLY OF.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> BUT IN ACE'S CASE, JOINING A GANG DIDN'T KEEP HIM SAFE.

>> BIG ACE, HE HAD BASKETBALL TALENT, EVERYTHING. HE HAD SCHOLARSHIPS TO GO TO COLLEGE, BUT HE GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE STREET LIFE.

>> I THANK GOD FOR THE GIFT THAT HE ALLOWED ME TO SHARE AND THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT LOVED HIM. HE WAS LOVED.

>> MOST PARENTS WANT THEIR KIDS TO DIE AFTER THEY'RE DEAD AND GONE AND OLD AGE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD, IT'S NOT LIKE THAT.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> JOINING A GANG DIDN'T PROTECT ME EITHER. MANY YEARS AGO, I WAS SHOT IN THE CHIN RIGHT HERE, BUT THAT DIDN'T STOP ME EITHER. BUT AFTER WATCHING MORE OF MY FRIENDS DIE OR WIND UP IN JAIL, I KNEW CHANGE HAD TO COME. NOW I WORK TO HELP OTHERS GET OUT OF GANG LIFE AND I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE.

"O.B.">> YOU ALL LOOK LIKE VICTIMS. YOU ALMOST LOOK LIKE YOU'RE WAITING TO GET SHOT, WAITING TO GET BLOWN AWAY. YOU WAITING YOUR TURN? IF YOU'RE WAITING YOUR TURN, YOU'RE OUT THERE DOING YOUR THING, THEN GO ON AND DO YOUR MAMA A FAVOR AND BUY YOURSELF A SUIT.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> "O.B.", A FORMER GANG MEMBER, WARNS YOUNGER GANG MEMBERS AT FUNERALS THAT THEY'RE ON THE WRONG PATH.

"O.B.">> YOU COULD CHANGE YOUR DRESS CODE, HOMIE, RIGHT NOW. I DON'T CATCH NO BULLET. YOU WALKING DOWN THE STREET GOING TO SCHOOL, SOMEBODY'LL KILL YOU. YOU GOING TO THE 7-11 TO GET SOME HOT CHOCOLATE FOR YOUR MAMA, AND GET KILLED BECAUSE YOU GOT ON THE WRONG ATTIRE, MAN. THEY DRIVING DOWN THE STREET LOOKING FOR YOU. SOON AS THEY SEE YOU, YOU'RE WHOLE LIFESTYLE IS RUNNING FROM A BULLET. MAN, YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT. IF YOU GOING TO DO THAT, THEN JOIN THE ARMY.

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JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> THE LARGER COMMUNITY IS JOINING IN NOW TOO, DEMANDING AN END TO THE VIOLENCE. PROTESTS LIKE THESE HAVE BECOME COMMON. THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN MEETING WITH COMMUNITY LEADERS LIKE THIS EVENT HERE AT MY CHURCH.

>> THIS IS PART OF A NEW MOVEMENT.

JOHN "APOLLO" PAYNE>> AND THE LAPD HAS LAUNCHED A NEW COMMUNITY-BASED ANTI-GANG PROGRAM. SO FAR IN 2003, GANG VIOLENCE HAS DROPPED TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT. FOUR MONTHS IN DECLINING MURDER RATES ISN'T LONG ENOUGH TO DECLARE A VICTORY OVER GANG VIOLENCE, BUT WE ALL HOPE IT'S A BEGINNING.

VAL>> THESE STORIES WERE TOLD BY SOMEONE WHO LIVED THE LIFE OF A GANG MEMBER. HIS STREET NAME, AS WE MENTIONED, IS "APOLLO", BUT HIS REAL NAME IS JOHN PAYNE. WE MET JOHN AT THE LUCY FLORENCE COFFEE HOUSE IN LEIMERT PARK TO FIND OUT WHAT'S HAPPENED SINCE HE PRODUCED THOSE STORIES.

VAL>> APOLLO, YOU SAID YOU WERE A GANG MEMBER. HOW INTENSE A GANG MEMBER WERE YOU? BECAUSE I KNOW THERE'S LIKE REALLY HARD-CORE GANGBANGERS AND THEN THERE ARE OTHERS THAT ARE NOT QUITE SO VIOLENT. WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE?

JOHN PAYNE>> MY EXPERIENCE WAS DIFFERENT. YOU KNOW, I STARTED AT AN EARLY AGE. I WAS ABOUT EIGHT AND A HALF OR NINE YEARS OLD. I REMEMBER WE WERE LIVING IN ALISO VILLAGE WHEN I FIRST HEARD THE NAME OF TERRY GOODALL.

VAL>> AND WHAT'S THAT NAME?

JOHN PAYNE>> HE WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF THE BLOOD GANG. WHAT HAPPENED IS, WE MOVED FROM ALISO VILLAGE AND I MOVED TO THE TWENTIES AND I GOT TO KNOW A LOT OF THEM BLOODS AND I WAS STILL WAS HEARING TERRY GOODALL, TERRY GOODALL. I ALWAYS HEARD HIS NAME. THEN WE MOVED OVER IN TERRY'S NEIGHBORHOOD AND I REALLY HEARD HIS NAME AND THAT MADE ME WANT TO BE A PART OF A GANG RIGHT THERE.

VAL>> AND WHAT KIND OF CRIMES DID YOU DO? WERE THEY PETTY OR WERE THEY SERIOUS?

JOHN PAYNE>> ALL MY CRIMES WERE POSSESSION OF FIREARMS AND DRUGS. NO MURDERS, NO THEFT OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

VAL>> BUT YOU COULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO THAT IF YOU HAD STAYED LONGER. WHAT SAVED YOU?

JOHN PAYNE>> WELL, WHAT SAVED ME WAS THAT I HAD A FAMILY STRUCTURE. I WAS IN CHURCH, I WAS WORKING AND I WAS OUT SNEAKING. STEVIE WONDER CAME OUT WITH A RECORD, "SNEAKING OUT THE BACK DOOR HANGING OUT WITH THESE HOODLUM FRIENDS OF MINE". WE WERE LIVING IN THE JUNGLE AND WE WERE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAD A BACK DOOR AT THAT TIME. WELL, MAYBE A FEW MORE. THAT SONG WAS MADE FOR ME. I WAS LITERALLY DOING IT.

VAL>> AND YOU WERE LITERALLY SNEAKING OUT THE BACK DOOR. SO THAT SONG ACTUALLY CHANGED YOUR LIFE?

JOHN PAYNE>> NO, IT DIDN'T CHANGE MY LIFE, BUT WHAT IT DID IT MOTIVATED ME TO RUN OUT THE BACK DOOR MORE.

VAL>> OH, I SEE. SO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT GANG KIDS NOW, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A RELATIVELY NEW POLICE CHIEF THAT SAYS THAT HE'S REALLY GOING TO CRACK DOWN ON GANGS. IS IT SOMETHING THAT THE POLICE CAN ACTUALLY DO OR IS IT SOMETHING THAT'S OUT OF THEIR CONTROL? IS IT CHURCHES, PARENTS, SCHOOLS, AFTER-SCHOOL PROGRAMS? WHAT DO YOU THINK CAN REALLY GET RID OF THIS PROBLEM?

JOHN PAYNE>> WELL, I THINK CHIEF BRATTON HAS PUT A DENT IN IT ALREADY, HIM AND SHERIFF BACA. THEY'VE BEEN DOING RAIDS AND THEY'VE BEEN SUPPORTING THE "STOP THE KILLING" RALLIES THAT'S BEEN HELD AT DIFFERENT CHURCHES. BUT IN THE LONG-TERM, IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE PARENTS. IT'S GOING TO TAKE THESE GUYS THAT ARE IN PRISON TO SAY, HEY, NO MORE. NO MORE BLACK CRIME ON BLACK CRIME, BROWN CRIME ON BROWN CRIME. SO IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO COME FROM THE PARENTS OF THESE KIDS TO SAY I DON'T WANT MY SONS OR MY DAUGHTERS TO GROW UP LIKE I DID.

VAL>> BUT SOMETIMES THE PARENTS FEEL HELPLESS. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE WORKING HARD OR THEY'RE LACKING RESOURCES, PSYCHOLOGICAL, FINANCIAL, EVERYTHING, TO KEEP THEIR KID OUT OF TROUBLE, AND THE KID COMES UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF GANGS. WHAT ARE PARENTS TO DO?

JOHN PAYNE>> WHEN IT STARTED, I MEAN, THE INFLUENCE WAS HIP-HOP, BUT THEY STARTED THIS GANGSTER RAP AND, WHEN GANGSTER RAP HIT, EVERYBODY BECAME A GANG MEMBER. SO INSTEAD OF HAVING ONE MILLION, YOU HAVE FIVE MILLION BECAUSE ALL THIS NEGATIVE MUSIC IS AROUND JUST DESTROYING OUR YOUTH.

VAL>> OH, SO YOU THINK THIS GANGSTER RAP REALLY HAS A NEGATIVE EFFECT ON KIDS?

JOHN PAYNE>> OH, MAN, IT'S JUST LIKE CRACK COCAINE.

VAL>> REALLY? THAT BAD?

JOHN PAYNE>> IT'S DEEP, BUT IT'S BIG MONEY.

VAL>> SO IF YOU COULD GET RID OF ONE THING, WHAT WOULD IT BE?

JOHN PAYNE>> BRING BACK HIP-HOP AND TAKE OUT GANGSTER RAP.

VAL>> NOW WHEN I THINK OF THE HUMAN SPECIES TEN THOUSAND YEARS OLD, FOR EIGHT OR NINE THOUSAND OF IT, WE WERE HUNTERS, GATHERERS, YOU KNOW, VIOLENCE AND PHYSICAL SURVIVAL WAS DEPENDENT ON BEING ABLE TO FIGHT. SO WHEN I LOOK AT GANG KIDS, I THINK, WELL, IN TERMS OF OUR EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY, THEY WOULD BE THE ONES THAT WOULD SURVIVE MORE THAN, YOU KNOW, THE EDUCATED PHD'S, SO IS THIS JUST PART OF OUR NATURE?

JOHN PAYNE>> YES. TO ANSWER WHY IS IT PART OF OUR NATURE, IT'S BECAUSE OF -- I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF OUR NATURE -- THAT'S A DEEP QUESTION.

VAL>> I KNOW IT IS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO ASK IS IT SOMETHING THAT'S SO INGRAINED IN HUMAN NATURE THAT WE JUST SIMPLY HAVE TO WAIT FOR MANY MORE YEARS FOR IT TO CHANGE? WHAT'S SOMETHING THAT CAN CHANGE RIGHT NOW, THIS GENERATION?

JOHN PAYNE>> IT CAN CHANGE, BUT IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE FAMILY STRUCTURE TO CHANGE IT. YOU KNOW, JUST THINKING BACK, I REMEMBER I HAD A PICNIC AT MY HOUSE WITH MAYBE 400 OR 500 GANG MEMBERS AROUND AND THEY WERE CHANTING THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS. THEN I THINK ABOUT EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS AGO, THERE WERE TRIBES. SO YOU CAN COMPARE WITH THAT, BUT WE'VE COME SO FAR AS A PEOPLE NOW THAT I THINK IT'S TIME FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO PUT A HAND IN THIS AND SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH BECAUSE NOW INNOCENT KIDS ARE GETTING KILLED. IT'S NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, GANGBANGER ON GANGBANGER. A WOMAN JUST GOT KILLED AND HER KID IS IN THE HOSPITAL, SO IT'S REALLY BAD.

VAL>> SO ARE YOU STILL SEEING THE KINDS OF SHOOTINGS AND VICTIMS THAT YOU REPORTED ON IN THE PIECE? YOU SAID THINGS HAVE GOTTEN A LITTLE BETTER WITH BRATTON, BUT ARE YOU STILL SEEING A LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE GETTING KILLED?

JOHN PAYNE>> YEAH, YEAH. WE'RE STILL SEEING THAT.

VAL>> SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU? HOW ARE YOU TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS?

JOHN PAYNE>> WELL, I TAKE TIME OUT. I TALK TO THE KIDS. I TAKE THEM PLACES. WE WERE AT JIM BROWN'S HOUSE LAST NIGHT. THE AMERICAN I CAN PROGRAM HAS BEEN A GREAT HELP WITH MY CAREER AND PAUL STEUBEN'S CAREER BECAUSE JIM HAS BEEN LIKE A BIG BROTHER TO US. I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST STARTED OUT, SENATOR DIANE WATSON WAS A GREAT SUPPORT FOR ME AND PAUL. WITHOUT JIM BROWN AND THE SENATOR, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT I WOULD HAVE MADE IT.

VAL>> NOW YOU HAVE A YOUNG SON WHOM YOU'RE WELCOME TO INTRODUCE US TO. WHY DON'T YOU COME OVER HERE, DANTE? NOW WHAT DO YOU TELL YOUR YOUNG BOY BECAUSE HE'S GROWING UP IN THIS AREA?

JOHN PAYNE>> WHY DON'T YOU ASK HIM?

VAL>> DANTE, DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE WHEN YOU GROW UP? IS IT HARD TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE THESE DAYS?

DANTE>> NO.

VAL>> NO? WHY NOT?

DANTE>> BECAUSE IF YOU HAVE YOUR MIND TO CERTAIN THINGS, YOU JUST FOLLOW IT.

VAL>> IS YOUR MIND SET ON DOING WELL IN SCHOOL AND GETTING A GOOD JOB, MAYBE GOING TO COLLEGE?

DANTE>> YES.

VAL>> GOOD FOR YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH. NICE MEETING YOU.

DANTE>> NICE MEETING YOU TOO.

VAL>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, JOHN PAYNE, ALSO KNOWN AS "APOLLO". WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT INTO THIS COMMUNITY.

KCET.ORG IS THE PLACE TO LOOK FOR THE VERY LATEST ON LIFE AND TIMES. YOU'LL FIND PREVIEWS OF UPCOMING STORIES, TRANSCRIPTS AND AUDIO OF PAST EPISODES AND LINKS TO SOME OF OUR MOST INTERESTING FEATURES. JUST GO TO KCET.ORG AND CLICK ON "LIFE AND TIMES".

VAL>> WE'VE TOLD YOU ABOUT THE TRAGIC SIDE OF LIFE IN LOS ANGELES, BUT WE WOULDN'T WANT TO IGNORE THE MANY GOOD PEOPLE AND THINGS THAT HAPPEN, THINGS THAT BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE. SO HOW ABOUT GOING TO A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN GET A REAL BARGAIN, MAYBE EVEN COME ACROSS AN UNDISCOVERED ANTIQUE TREASURE? PHILIP BRUCE SAYS A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY DISCOVERED ONE.

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PHILIP BRUCE>> FOR SCORES OF BARGAIN HUNTERS, THERE IS NO SWEETER SOUND THAN THIS. WELCOME TO THE GRANDDADDY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AUCTIONS, A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN BID ON AN ANTIQUE CLOCK, A BUST OF NAPOLEON OR MAYBE JUST A HANDFUL OF STUFF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT LATER.

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PHILIP BRUCE>> THIS IS THE A. N. ABELL AUCTION COMPANY, A FAMILY BUSINESS THAT'S BEEN MOVING MERCHANDISE FOR THE BETTER PART OF EIGHTY YEARS. EVERY THURSDAY, THE WAREHOUSE HERE IN THE CITY OF COMMERCE BECOMES A SHOWPLACE FOR TREASURES IN NEED OF NEW HOMES.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SO YOU CAME HERE LOOKING FOR A BARGAIN OR ANYTHING SPECIFIC?

>> A BARGAIN.

PHILIP BRUCE>> WHAT WOULD BE A BARGAIN FOR YOU?

>> WELL, GOOD THINGS AND A GOOD PRICE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IMAGINE YOUR ENTIRE BLOCK IS THROWING A YARD SALE, MULTIPLY THAT BY A THOUSAND, AND YOU GET SOME IDEA OF WHAT THIS PLACE IS LIKE. SINCE THE AUCTION IS OPEN TO EVERYBODY, YOU NEVER KNOW WHO'S GOING TO SHOW UP.

BRUCE SMART>> ACTUALLY, I'VE BEEN EDUCATED TO BE AN ENGINEER AND THINGS DIDN'T WORK OUT TOO WELL THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMY. I WAS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE INTRODUCED TO A FRIEND WHO HAS BEEN DOING ASIAN ART FOR PROBABLY ABOUT THREE YEARS. SO THIS HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BRUCE SMART IS ONE OF MANY PROFESSIONAL DEALERS WHO BUY THINGS HERE TO SELL LATER AT THEIR OWN SHOPS. HE'S LEARNED NOT TO LET HIS PERSONAL TASTES GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD DEAL. AND THESE CHAIRS ARE A PRIME EXAMPLE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NOW IF YOU CAME HERE AS AN ENGINEER AND NOT AS A TRADER OR NOT AS SOMEBODY WHO'S IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING THIS STUFF, WOULD YOU BUY THOSE PINK CHAIRS FOR YOURSELF?

BRUCE SMART>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT BACK AT HIS SHOP IN SAN DIEGO, BRUCE KNOWS THE CHAIRS COULD BRING TOP DOLLAR, WELL OVER WHAT THEY'LL GO FOR HERE.

BRUCE SMART>> I JUST SAW A GUY BUY A HANDFUL OF WOODEN SPEARS. ISN'T THAT AMAZING? I PERSONALLY WOULDN'T HAVE BOUGHT THAT, BUT IT'S GOING TO MAKE A NICE SHOWPIECE FOR SOMEBODY IN THEIR HOME.

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BARRY ABELL>> I LOVE IT. I MEAN, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I GREW UP WITH EVER SINCE I WAS A CHILD. I'M NOW IN MY MID-50'S.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IT ALL STARTED WITH BARRY'S GRANDFATHER BACK IN 1916. THAT'S HIM ON THE LEFT AND THAT'S BARRY ON THE RIGHT. HOW DID THE FAMILY GET INTO THIS BUSINESS?

BARRY ABELL>> MY GRANDFATHER CAME FROM RUSSIA AND HE ACTUALLY SAW A COUSIN AND HER HUSBAND WAS IN THE USED FURNITURE BUSINESS. HE WOUND UP MAKING HIM AN OFFER FOR THE USED FURNITURE BUSINESS AND THEN, IN 1916, HE TURNED IT INTO AN AUCTION COMPANY. IN FACT, THE FIRST NAME OF OUR COMPANY WAS LIBERTY AUCTION COMPANY BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT AFTER WORLD WAR I.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THERE IS A METHOD TO THIS MADNESS. THE SMALL CHEAP STUFF MOVES EARLY. PEOPLE BID ON IT BY THE BOX. POTS AND PANS, BOOKS, OLD BOTTLES, YOU NAME IT, THEY SELL IT. AS THE DAY PROGRESSES, THEY'LL MOVE DOWN TO THE FURNITURE AND THE ART. MOST OF IT COMES FROM ESTATE SALES. SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GETTING? YOU COME TO THE PREVIEW ON WEDNESDAY, THE DAY BEFORE THE AUCTION, WHEN DIEHARD SHOPPERS SUCH AS SUSAN ZATARAIN KICK THE TIRES ON THEIR POTENTIAL PURCHASES.

SUSAN ZATARAIN>> YOU CAN BUY A PAINTING HERE THAT'S IN ABSOLUTELY FILTHY, HORRIBLE CONDITION AND HAVE IT RESTORED. THAT HAPPENS A LOT, BUT USUALLY WHEN YOU GET A REALLY GOOD DEAL ON SOMETHING, IT'S BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE DON'T SEE IT OR MAYBE THEY SEE SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T SEE. BUT WHENEVER YOU BUY AT AUCTION, YOU BUY AS-IS, WHERE-IS, AND WITH ALL FAULTS, AND THE BUYER TAKES FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THE DAY BEFORE THIS AUCTION, VAL WENT TO THE PREVIEW AND GOT A HANDS-ON TOUR FROM DON SHEARSON, A VETERAN AUCTIONEER AND FAMILY PARTNER IN THE ABELL AUCTION COMPANY.

DON SHEARSON>> VAL, RIGHT HERE IS A DINING SET MADE BY HAYWOOD WAKEFIELD. IT'S FROM THE 60'S.

VAL>> VERY NICE.

DON SHEARSON>> VERY POPULAR, MODERN FURNITURE, VERY POPULAR TODAY.

VAL>> IT'S IN GOOD SHAPE.

DON SHEARSON>> IT'S IN PRETTY GOOD SHAPE. THE UPHOLSTERY MIGHT NEED A LITTLE SPRUCING UP.

VAL>> BUT IT'S NOT TRASHED.

DON SHEARSON>> NO. OTHERWISE, THE WOOD IS IN REAL GOOD SHAPE. A SET LIKE THIS TODAY WOULD PROBABLY BRING SOMEWHERE $1500, $2000 MAYBE.

VAL>> THIS IS AMAZING.

DON SHEARSON>> QUITE UNUSUAL, I THINK.

VAL>> IT'S HEAVY.

DON SHEARSON>> (LAUGHTER) CAN YOU IMAGINE PUTTING THAT ON YOUR HEAD?

VAL>> A JAPANESE --

DON SHEARSON>> -- I DON'T THINK SO.

VAL>> THAT'S INCREDIBLE. JAPANESE ORNAMENTAL HELMET. BUT, AGAIN, YOU MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW HOW OLD THIS IS? INFORMATION DOESN'T COME ALONG WITH THESE ITEMS NECESSARILY?

DON SHEARSON>> WELL, WE ALWAYS SAY BUYER BEWARE.

VAL>> NOW I NOTICE YOU HAVE A LOT OF BOOKS HERE. SOME OF THESE MIGHT BE REALLY OLD, FIRST EDITIONS OR SOMETHING?

DON SHEARSON>> RIGHT. THERE COULD BE. WE SELL THE BOOKS AS A LIBRARY. WE USUALLY HAVE A LIBRARY SUCH AS THIS.

VAL>> OH, SO YOU CAN'T PICK AND CHOOSE? YOU'VE GOT TO BUY THE WHOLE THING?

DON SHEARSON>> NO, NO. YOU BUY THE WHOLE KIT AND CABOODLE.

VAL>> SO IF YOU SEE ONE THAT'S REALLY VALUABLE, YOU'VE GOT TO BUY IT ALL.

DON SHEARSON>> RIGHT, RIGHT. A LOT OF THE BOOKS ARE BOUGHT BY DEALERS.

VAL>> NOW THIS IS A FUN LITTLE PIECE HERE.

DON SHEARSON>> OH, YEAH, LOOK AT THIS. THIS IS AN ANTIQUE CHILD'S POTTY SEAT.

VAL>> POTTY SEAT (LAUGHTER).

DON SHEARSON>> THIS IS PROBABLY TURN OF THE CENTURY MAYBE.

VAL>> NOW WHOSE FAMOUS TUSH ONCE SAT HERE? (LAUGHTER) DO YOU WATCH THE "ANTIQUES ROADSHOW"? (LAUGHTER) YOU CAN CONFESS.

DON SHEARSON>> I WOULDN'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE.

VAL>> GUILTY PLEASURE?

DON SHEARSON>> DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ NOR EVERYTHING YOU SEE, ALL RIGHT?

VAL>> IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT OFTEN THAT PEOPLE WALK IN WITH --

DON SHEARSON>> -- NO COMMENT (LAUGHTER).

[FILM CLIP]

PHILIP BRUCE>> BACK TO THE AUCTION AND WE FIND THAT OUR OLD FRIEND, BRUCE SMART, AND HIS BUSINESS PARTNER, CHIA LI HUONG, HAVE PASSED ON THE PINK CHAIRS, BUT THEY DID FIND ANOTHER TREASURE FOR THEIR SAN DIEGO ANTIQUE SHOP.

CHIA LI HUONG>> OH, I BOUGHT A 1940'S JAPANESE SCREEN AND I THINK I OVERPAID A LITTLE BIT, BUT I THINK THE PIECE IS REALLY BEAUTIFUL. I REALLY LIKE IT FOR MY COLLECTION.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SOME DEALERS AREN'T AS CANDID ABOUT SHOPPING HERE. THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW WHERE THEY GET THEIR STUFF. BUT THEN THERE ARE THE REGULAR PEOPLE, SHOPPERS WHO BUY FOR THEMSELVES. GLORIA THOMAS GOT A BOX OF JEWELRY FOR $70 AND A BOX OF BOXES FOR $15.

PHILIP BRUCE>> DID YOU GET A GOOD DEAL TODAY?

GLORIA THOMAS>> OH, YEAH. I'M REALLY HAPPY. I'M REALLY HAPPY WITH THE BOXES AND THE JEWELRY, I GOT MY $70 FOR MYSELF AND WHATEVER I SELL ON THE OTHER, IT PAYS FOR WHAT I BOUGHT FOR MYSELF.

PHILIP BRUCE>> AND GLORIA JUST MAY HAVE GOTTEN THE BARGAIN OF THE DAY, A NEW HEADBOARD FOR HER BED.

PHILIP BRUCE>> HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY FOR THAT?

GLORIA THOMAS>> ONE DOLLAR, ONE DOLLAR, AND I'M REALLY HAPPY WITH IT. I'M GOING TO COVER THE FABRIC BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATCH MINE, BUT I LOVE THE HEADBOARD ITSELF. AT THAT PRICE, I GOT TO LOVE IT (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> THE ABELL FAMILY STARTED THEIR AUCTION BUSINESS HERE IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES, BUT MOVED TO THE CITY OF COMMERCE AFTER THEIR ORIGINAL WAREHOUSE WAS GUTTED DURING THE LOS ANGELES RIOTS. THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT'S CHANGED AND NOW, AS THE FOURTH GENERATION OF FAMILY MOVES INTO THE AUCTION PIT, THEY'RE LOOKING FORWARD TO ANOTHER EIGHTY YEARS OF DOING BUSINESS.

THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. REPORTING FROM THE CRENSHAW DISTRICT IN SOUTH LOS ANGELES, I'M VAL ZAVALA. FOR EVERYONE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

LIFE AND TIMES WAS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, NATURE GAVE HIM A HUGE CHALLENGE, BUT THIS TEACHER HAS TURNED A PHYSICAL HANDICAP INTO A TOOL FOR INSPIRING HIS STUDENTS.

>> IF WE SAY LIKE WE CAN'T DO THIS, HE'LL BE LIKE, "LOOK AT ME. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. IF I MADE IT THROUGH MY LIFE LIKE THIS, I KNOW YOU CAN MAKE IT THROUGH YOUR LIFE NORMAL."

VAL>> THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES.