7/9/03

LC030709

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

NATURE GAVE HIM A HUGE CHALLENGE, BUT THIS TEACHER HAS TURNED A PHYSICAL HANDICAP INTO A TOOL FOR INSPIRING STUDENTS.

>> IF WE SAY LIKE, MR. GALLAGHER, WE CAN'T DO THIS. HE'LL BE LIKE, LOOK AT ME. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. IF I MADE IT THROUGH MY LIFE LIKE THIS, I KNOW YOU CAN MAKE IT THROUGH YOUR LIFE NORMAL.

VAL>> AND THEN, HE'S THE OTHER MUSIC MAN. WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT MURRAY'S GOT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE WANT AND YOU CAN SING ALONG.

STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT'S LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> HELLO, I'M VAL ZAVALA REPORTING FROM THE GROVE NEXT TO LOS ANGELES'S HISTORIC FARMERS MARKET. SOME OF HOLLYWOOD'S BIGGEST BLOCKBUSTERS WIND UP PLAYING AT THEATERS LIKE THE STATE-OF-THE-ART ONE YOU SEE BEHIND ME, BUT TONIGHT WE'RE ABOUT TO BRING YOU A REAL-LIFE STORY THAT RIVALS ANYTHING YOU'LL EVER SEE IN MOTION PICTURES. IT'S ABOUT A TEACHER IN ORANGE COUNTY'S CAPISTRANO SCHOOL DISTRICT. AS YOU'LL SEE, HE WAS BORN WITH A DISABILITY. BUT AS TONI GUINYARD REPORTS, INSTEAD OF LETTING HIS PHYSICAL HANDICAP HOLD HIM BACK, HE'S USING IT TO INSPIRE ALMOST EVERYONE HE MEETS.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "STEP ONE IS YOU PLUG IN ALL THE NUMBERS INTO THE FORMULA, SO YOU HAVE TEN METER SQUARED WHICH IS...."

TONI GUINYARD>> FIRST-YEAR TEACHER, CHRIS GALLAGHER, WASN'T COMPLETELY GREEN WHEN HE WALKED INTO HIS MIDDLE SCHOOL CLASSROOM THIS YEAR. HE'D SPENT FIVE YEARS SUBSTITUTING WHILE WORKING ON HIS TEACHING CREDENTIAL. GALLAGHER FELT PREPARED, BUT MOST OF HIS SIXTH GRADE STUDENTS WEREN'T PREPARED FOR HIM.

>> OUT OF CLASS, THEY'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT HIM AND HOW HE WAS LIKE USING HIS FEET AND I HEARD ABOUT IT AND I DIDN'T REALLY BELIEVE IT, BUT WHEN I CAME TO CLASS, I SAW HIM.

>> WE WERE ALL PRETTY LIKE FREAKED OUT AND STUFF AND A LOT OF PEOPLE, THEY'D LIKE WHISPER TO EACH OTHER, LIKE ASK HIM IF HE'S EVER BEEN ON RIPLEY'S BELIEVE IT OR NOT OR SOMETHING.

>> AND I HANDED HIM MY PAPER AND HE LIFTED HIS FOOT UP TO GRAB IT AND I WAS LIKE, WHOA, WHERE'S YOUR HANDS? IT WAS REALLY WEIRD.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "V EQUALS PI R SQUARED TIMES H."

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> USUALLY WHAT I DO IS THEY'RE KIND OF GOOFING OFF, TALKING AND WHATNOT, AND I'LL GO UP TO THE BOARD AND I WON'T SAY A WORD. I'LL JUST START WRITING MY NAME ON THE BOARD AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THE ROOM JUST GOES COMPLETELY SILENT. AT THAT POINT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE THEIR ATTENTION. I HAVE A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE AND I SAY, YOU KNOW, HELLO, MY NAME IS MR. GALLAGHER AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN SEE I WRITE MY NAME ON THE BOARD WITH MY FEET.

>> HE WAS JUST LIKE YOU NOTICE I DO THINGS A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY? I WAS LIKE A LITTLE? I WAS SCARED BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I THOUGHT LIKE THAT HE NEEDED HELP AND STUFF AND I THOUGHT LIKE THE CLASS WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO HELP HIM.

>> IN THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR, HE TOLD US WHAT DISEASE. IT'S LIKE MULTHROPONSOSIS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. HE EXPLAINED IT ALL TO US, HOW HE WAS BORN WITH IT.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "GOOD AFTERNOON, GOOD AFTERNOON, GOOD AFTERNOON."

TONI GUINYARD>> CHRIS GALLAGHER IS NOW THIRTY-EIGHT YEARS OLD. HIS LIFE IS A TESTAMENT TO BEATING THE ODDS AND THEY WERE ALL STACKED AGAINST HIM WHEN HE WAS BORN. HIS INTESTINES WERE OUTSIDE HIS BODY AND HE HAD A CONDITION CALLED ARTHROGRYPOSIS MULTIPLEX CONGENITA WHICH INTERFERED WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF HIS JOINTS, BONES AND MUSCLES. BUT GALLAGHER HAD AN ATTENTIVE FAMILY AND THEY HELPED HIM THRIVE IN SPITE OF THE CARDS LIFE HAD DEALT.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> THEY WERE VERY SUPPORTIVE. THEY ALWAYS HELPED ME AND THEY PROVIDED THE BEST CARE.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT, A, IT'S NOT PLUGGED IN YET. B, THAT WHEN YOU STICK THE NAILS INTO THE PICKLE, THAT THE NAILS NEVER TOUCH EACH OTHER. VERY IMPORTANT, IF YOU DO THIS AT HOME, BECAUSE IT COULD CAUSE A FIRE. IT COULD CAUSE A LOT OF THINGS, OKAY?"

TONI GUINYARD>> AT FIRST, GALLAGHER ATTENDED A SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN WITH DISABILITIES, BUT EVENTUALLY HIS PARENTS MADE HIM LEARN TO DRESS HIMSELF SO HE COULD GO TO HIS NEIGHBORHOOD SCHOOL.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> AS TOUGH AS THAT WAS BECAUSE OF THE TIME-CONSUMING ENERGY THAT IT TAKES FOR ME TO PUT ON A SHIRT, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD HELP ME, I COULD BE OUT PLAYING IN FIVE SECONDS. BUT THEY SAID, NO, YOU HAVE TO PUT ON YOUR SHIRT YOURSELF AND PUT UP WITH THE STRUGGLE AND LEARN HOW TO DO THAT. BUT IN THE LONG RUN, IT HELPED ME AND IT ENABLED ME TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL WHERE ALL THE FRIENDS THAT I GREW UP WENT.

TONI GUINYARD>> GALLAGHER SAYS THE KIDS HE GREW UP WITH LOOKED OUT FOR HIM.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS AS FAR AS BEING MADE FUN OF IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. THEY WERE GREAT BODYGUARDS AS WELL BECAUSE THEY KIND OF PREPARED ME TO GO TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOL. THEY KIND OF SAID, HEY, MY FRIEND'S COMING AND IF YOU MAKE FUN OF HIM, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MESS WITH ME TYPE DEAL. THEY NEVER HAD TO, BUT THEY WERE REALLY SUPPORTIVE.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "GIVE ME A LAP AROUND THE TRACK AND MEET ME ON THE SOCCER FIELD."

TONI GUINYARD>> GALLAGHER DIDN'T LET HIS PHYSICAL PROBLEMS GET IN THE WAY OF SPORTS. HE SKATEBOARDED AND SURFED AND, IN HIGH SCHOOL, HE PLAYED SOCCER.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> YEAH, I STARTED OUT SKATEBOARDING. THEN WHEN I DISCOVERED BODY BOARDING, I FOUND THAT LANDING IN WATER WHEN YOU WIPED OUT WAS A LOT NICER THAN LANDING ON CONCRETE. THAT REALLY TOOK MY PASSION AND I'VE BEEN DOING THAT EVER SINCE.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> "SO WE HAVE OUR ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE ELEMENTS OF A SCIENTIFIC METHOD."

TONI GUINYARD>> IN SCHOOL, GALLAGHER PUT HIS BOOK ON HIS DESK AND HIS NOTES ON THE FLOOR SO HE COULD WRITE WITH HIS FEET. FOR YEARS, HE DID WELL, BUT IN HIGH SCHOOL, HIS LIFE BECAME MORE DIFFICULT. DATING DIDN'T COME EASILY. HE WANTED TO PLAY FOOTBALL AND BE POPULAR AND THEN HIS MOTHER DIED.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> UNFORTUNATELY, MY MOM DIED OF CANCER WHEN I WAS FIFTEEN AND THOSE WERE SOME TOUGH TIMES GOING THROUGH, YOU KNOW, ADOLESCENCE AND TEENAGE YEARS AND I KIND OF GOT INVOLVED WITH THE WRONG PEOPLE AND THE WRONG TYPES OF THINGS.

TONI GUINYARD>> GALLAGHER DROPPED OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL HIS SENIOR YEAR. TODAY HE CREDITS HIS RELIGIOUS FAITH FOR GETTING HIM BACK ON TRACK. HE EVENTUALLY COMPLETED HIS EDUCATION AND OPENED A SURF SHOP. GALLAGHER ALSO RAN A YOUTH GROUP AT THE SHOP COMBINING SURFING WITH BIBLE STUDY. IT'S THE THING THAT GOT HIM INTERESTED IN TEACHING.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> I FELT LIKE I HAD A GIFT AND I ENJOYED IT.

TONI GUINYARD>> GALLAGHER IS ALWAYS OPEN TO HIS STUDENTS' QUESTIONS ABOUT MATH AND SCIENCE AND ABOUT HIS DISABILITY.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> THE MOST COMMON QUESTION IS WHO TAUGHT YOU HOW TO USE YOUR FEET? AND FOR ME, FROM THE TIME I WAS YOUNG UNTIL NOW, IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I JUST DID NATURALLY. YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE A PERSON WOULD USE THEIR HANDS NATURALLY AND NO ONE HAS TO TEACH THEM.

TONI GUINYARD>> STUDENTS ALSO WONDER HOW HE DRIVES AND COOKS AND COMBS HIS HAIR AND BRUSHES HIS TEETH AND LOOKS AFTER HIS THREE CHILDREN. THE ANSWER IS THAT HE HAS IT ALL FIGURED OUT.

>> ONCE YOU GET USED TO IT, YOU LIKE, YOU KNOW, HE'S A NORMAL PERSON AND YOU JUST TREAT HIM NORMAL. I MEAN, IF I WERE HANDICAPPED, I WOULDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO OPEN THE DOOR FOR ME. I WOULD JUST BE LIKE, YOU KNOW, I CAN DO THIS. I JUST HAVE A DISABILITY. I JUST CAN DO THIS.

>> LIKE I'LL ALWAYS REMEMBER HIM AS MY TEACHER, BUT I WON'T NECESSARILY REMEMBER HIM AS BEING WEIRD. I'LL JUST REMEMBER HIM AS BEING A NORMAL GUY THAT TAUGHT ME BASIC STUFF.

TONI GUINYARD>> BESIDES THE BASIC STUFF, CHRIS GALLAGHER HOPES HIS KIDS ALSO LEARN SOMETHING ELSE FROM HIM.

CHRIS GALLAGHER>> I CAN SEE IT NOW. IT'S LIKE A GIFT TO GIVE PEOPLE HOPE AND TO GIVE PEOPLE INSPIRATION THAT, YOU KNOW, IF I CAN DO IT, THEY CAN DO IT TOO.

>> IF WE SAY LIKE, MR. GALLAGHER, WE CAN'T DO THIS, HE'LL BE LIKE, LOOK AT ME. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. IF I MADE IT THROUGH MY LIFE LIKE THIS, I KNOW YOU CAN MAKE IT THROUGH YOUR LIFE NORMAL.

>> YOU KNOW, HE'S A REGULAR TEACHER. SOMETIMES WE HAVE BAD DAYS, SOMETIMES WE HAVE GOOD DAYS, BUT HE'S STILL A REALLY COOL TEACHER. IT'S A GOOD EXPERIENCE WITH HIM BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME KIDS THAT THINK THEY'LL ALWAYS HAVE EVERYTHING AND STUFF. SOME KIDS LIKE LOOK AT HIM AND THEN THEY'RE LIKE, OH, WAIT, YOU KNOW. THEY OPEN THEIR EYES A LITTLE.

VAL>> THE PRINCIPAL AT MARCO FOSTER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL ADMITS THAT IT DOES TAKE SOME STUDENTS A WHILE TO GET USED TO CHRIS GALLAGHER. THE PRINCIPAL WAS WORRIED THAT A FEW OF THE YOUNGSTERS MIGHT EVEN TRY TO MAKE CRUEL JOKES ABOUT GALLAGHER'S PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, BUT SO FAR THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. MEANWHILE, CHRIS HOPES THE STATE BUDGET PROBLEMS CAN BE SETTLED SOON SO HE AND OTHER TEACHERS WON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HAVING A JOB.

KCET.ORG IS THE PLACE TO LOOK FOR THE VERY LATEST ON LIFE AND TIMES. YOU'LL FIND PREVIEWS OF UPCOMING STORIES, TRANSCRIPTS AND AUDIO OF PAST EPISODES AND LINKS TO SOME OF OUR MOST INTERESTING FEATURES. JUST GO TO KCET.ORG AND CLICK ON "LIFE AND TIMES".

PHILIP BRUCE>> SCHOLARS GET PAID TO THINK DEEP THOUGHTS ABOUT LOTS OF THINGS THAT MOST OF US TAKE FOR GRANTED. HERE IN THE CITY OF CLAREMONT, A PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY HAS BEEN DOING JUST THAT. HE'S WRITTEN A NEW BOOK CALLED "THE RIVER OF GOD". THAT RIVER IS A METAPHOR FOR ALL THE THINGS THAT FLOW INTO TODAY'S MODERN CONCEPT OF CHRISTIANITY. BUT THE BOOK ALSO HAS SOME IMPORTANT THINGS TO SAY ABOUT RELIGIOUS ICONS, SUCH AS JESUS, HEAVEN AND HELL AND OUR EVERLASTING SOULS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> GREGORY RILEY, WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES.

GREGORY RILEY>> THANK YOU.

PHILIP BRUCE>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE RIVER OF GOD. WHAT IS THAT?

GREGORY RILEY>> IT'S REALLY THE TOTALITY OF THE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE DIVINE WORLD AND THE HUMAN WORLD IN THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST FROM THE TIME OF THREE THOUSAND B.C. OR THIRTY-TWO HUNDRED B.C. WHERE WE CAN START PICKING UP TEXT ALL INTO, SAY, THE FOURTH CENTURY, THE MOST CRITICAL CENTURY FOR DOCTRINES IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NOW YOU'VE EXPLORED SOME CONCEPTS THAT ARE PRETTY ORIGINAL AND ARE PRETTY THOUGHT-PROVOKING, ONE OF WHICH IS THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE SOUL. MANY OF US ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT WE'VE ALWAYS HAD A SOUL. WE'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT WE'VE HAD A SOUL, AT LEAST. YOU SAY THAT'S NOT TRUE?

GREGORY RILEY>> THAT IS NOT TRUE, AS A MATTER OF FACT. IN FACT, MOST PEOPLE IN THE TIME OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, JEWS, GENTILES ALIKE, MORE THAN NINETY-THREE PERCENT, IF I HAD TO PUT A NUMBER ON IT, BELIEVED THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SOUL AND THAT, WHEN THEY WERE DEAD, THEY SIMPLY DIED AND WERE GONE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THEN ALONG CAME JESUS AND ALL THAT CHANGED.

GREGORY RILEY>> WELL, JESUS IS A PRODUCT OF THE RIVER OF GOD. NOT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM HIS INDIVIDUAL GENIUS AND SPIRITUALITY, ETC., BUT HE WAS ABLE TO TAKE PHILOSOPHICAL IDEAS THAT HAD COME FROM GREECE, THAT HAD COME FROM EGYPT, THAT HAD COME FROM PERSIA, AND MELD THOSE TOGETHER INTO WHAT WE KNOW AS CHRISTIANITY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> NOW YOU SAY TODAY'S MODERN VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY AND THE GOSPEL THAT JESUS PRACTICED AND PREACHED ARE NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING?

GREGORY RILEY>> THAT'S ANOTHER VERY INTERESTING THING. IF WE CAN USE THE RIVER OF GOD IDEA AGAIN, BECAUSE THE RIVER CONTAINS VERY, VERY OLD IDEAS, IDEAS FROM BEFORE THE IDEA THAT WE HAD A SOUL AND BEFORE THE IDEA THAT SUFFERING MIGHT BE HELPFUL TO THE SOUL, CHRISTIANITY HAS INHERITED A LOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF THINGS.

SO WE STILL HAVE TODAY, FOR EXAMPLE, CHRISTIANS WHO SAY, IF YOU'RE FAITHFUL TO GOD, GOD WILL MAKE YOU RICH, GOD WILL MAKE YOU HEALTHY AND GOD WILL MAKE YOU LIVE A LONG TIME. WHEREAS JESUS SAID, "BLESSED ARE THE POOR" AND "BLESSED ARE THEY WHEN THEY PERSECUTE YOU". FOR JESUS, WHO DIED AT ABOUT THIRTY-THREE YEARS OLD, YOU CAN SEE THAT LONG LIFE AND POSSESSIONS ARE REALLY NOT THE POINT OF HIS MESSAGE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> SO JESUS NEVER SAID BELIEVE IN ME AND YOU'LL GET A BIG HOUSE? (LAUGHTER)

GREGORY RILEY>> NEVER SAID THAT (LAUGHTER). IN FACT, IN ONE PLACE IN THE GOSPEL OF LUKE, HE SAYS "UNLESS YOU SELL ALL YOU HAVE, YOU CAN'T BE MY DISCIPLE."

PHILIP BRUCE>> AND PART OF THIS, YOU SAY, WAS EVEN THE WHOLE MODERN CONCEPT OF THE DEVIL. NOW WE'RE TOLD YOU'VE GOT TO DO RIGHT OR THE DEVIL IS AFTER YOUR SOUL, AND YOU SAY THAT WAS NOT A CONCEPT THAT WAS EMBRACED EARLY ON.

GREGORY RILEY>> IT WAS A CONCEPT CONTRIBUTED TO THE RIVER OF GOD BY THE PERSIANS AND THAT IDEA DOESN'T ENTER THE RIVER THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE UNTIL THE FIVE HUNDREDS B.C. THAT'S WHY WHEN ONE READS THE OLD TESTAMENT, THE DEVIL IS ALMOST ENTIRELY ABSENT. YET AFTERWARDS, THE FIRST THING JESUS DOES AFTER HIS BAPTISM, OF COURSE, IS TO GO OUT INTO THE DESERT TO BE TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL. THEN HE DECLARES HIMSELF AT WAR WITH BEELZEBUB AND HE SAYS I'M GOING TO BIND THE HANDS OF THE STRONG MAN AND STEAL HIS GOODS.

PHILIP BRUCE>> BUT WHAT ABOUT THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE WHEN THE DEVIL TEMPTED THEM?

GREGORY RILEY>> IF ONE READS FROM THE CHRISTIAN PERIOD BACKWARDS, OF COURSE, WE RIGHT AWAY SEE THE DEVIL. THE APOSTLE PAUL SAYS THAT SERPENT DECEIVED EVE. SO CHRISTIANS HAVE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THAT THE SERPENT IN THE GARDEN WAS THE DEVIL. BUT IF WE READ IT FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION, WE REALIZE THAT THE AUTHOR OF GENESIS IS SIMPLY SAYING HE'S ANOTHER ONE OF THE ANIMALS THAT DECEIVED EVE, THAT THE CONCEPT OF THE DEVIL HADN'T YET ENTERED THE RIVER.

PHILIP BRUCE>> WHAT DO YOU GATHER, AS A SCHOLAR, ABOUT THE VALUE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, WHAT YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT AND WHAT YOU'RE LEARNING? WHAT VALUE DOES THAT HAVE FOR MODERN MANKIND NOW TO KNOW THESE THINGS?

GREGORY RILEY>> I THINK IT HAS A TREMENDOUS VALUE. ONE OF THEM IS TO ORIENT OURSELVES TOWARDS THE EQUALITY OF SOULS, TOWARDS THE GOODNESS THAT WE CAN DO FOR ONE ANOTHER INSTEAD OF FIGHTING OVER PROPERTY, FIGHTING OVER LAND, FIGHTING OVER -- YOU KNOW, YOU JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD IS. WE'RE CONSTANTLY LOOKING AT THE OUTSIDE INSTEAD OF THE INSIDE. JESUS WOULD SAY IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW LONG OR SHORT YOUR LIFE HERE ON EARTH IS. IT MATTERS ABOUT ITS QUALITY, ABOUT ITS PURITY, ABOUT ITS GOODNESS. IF WE COULD CONCENTRATE ON THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, THAT'S REALLY AT THE CORE OF WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DAY.

PHILIP BRUCE>> THIS GETS DOWN TO THE AGE-OLD CONCEPT THAT MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE NONBELIEVERS HAVE RAISED FOR YEARS, THAT BEING DID WE CREATE A MESSIAH OUT OF A NEED FOR ONE? DO YOU SEE ANYTHING IN YOUR STUDIES THAT INDICATES THAT MANKIND AT THAT TIME WAS LOOKING FOR A MESSIAH TO SAVE IT AND THAT JESUS JUST HAPPENED TO BE THE CONVENIENT PERSON?

GREGORY RILEY>> I THINK JESUS WAS ONE OF A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAD A SIMILAR VIEWPOINT. HIS PROJECT, OF COURSE, IS COMPLETELY -- HE PRESENTED HIMSELF AS A KIND OF VOICE. IN THE GOSPEL OF JOHN THE DISCIPLES, HE ASKED HIM ONE TIME, DO YOU WANT TO GO AWAY? THEY SAY, NO, LORD, YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WITH WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE.

PHILIP BRUCE>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE WAY THE WESTERN WORLD HAS EMBRACED CHRISTIANITY, AT LEAST THE VERSION OF IT THAT WE'VE EMBRACED NOW POPULARLY, HAS CREATED PROBLEMS ACROSS THE WORLD WHERE THERE WERE NONE? HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

GREGORY RILEY>> OF COURSE, THERE ARE ALWAYS PROBLEMS. THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, HAS ITS DARK SIDES. BUT THE HARD PART FOR CHRISTIANITY WAS WHEN IT HAD TO BECOME AN EMPIRE. IT'S VERY DIFFICULT, IF YOU COULD JUST IMAGINE, TO TRY TO RUN AN EMPIRE FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT THAT SAYS, YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY HITS YOU ON THE ONE CHEEK, TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. IF SOMEBODY TAKES YOUR CLOAK, GIVE THEM YOUR SHIRT ALSO. HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT HAVING AN EMPIRE?

SO WHAT THE CHRISTIANS DID WAS TO GO BACK TO THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE OLD EMPIRE TYPE WRITINGS THAT THEY HAD INHERITED FROM THE GREEKS AND THE ROMANS AND BUILD A CHRISTIAN EMPIRE THAT WAS A MIXTURE OF THESE TWO DISPARATE KINDS OF KINGDOMS. WE HAVE THE KINGDOM OF GOD OF JESUS, WHICH IS A SPIRITUAL KINGDOM THAT TAKES PLACE IN THE SOUL, AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE KINGDOMS OF EMPIRES THAT ARE ON THE GROUND WITH ARMIES AND TAXATION AND SLAVERY AND ALL OF THOSE ILLS THAT WE FIND. HERE, WHERE CHRISTIANS ARE NOT CLEAR ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS' KINGDOM OF GOD AND THE OTHER KINDS OF KINGDOMS, WE GET MIXED UP AND OUR CHRISTIANITY SUFFERS FOR THAT.

>> BIOLOGICALLY SPEAKING, WE ARE EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY YOUNG. SO PERHAPS OUR DEFINITIONS OF GOD, HOWEVER WE MAY EXTERNALIZE SUCH A LOVING, PROTECTIVE FIGURE, ARE GOING TO CHANGE. I GUESS MY FEELING ABOUT GOD IS CHANGE, OR IMPERMANENCE.

>> I DON'T BELIEVE GOD EXISTS. IF YOU HAD GIVEN ME EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT OTHERWISE, I COULD ACCEPT THAT, BUT RIGHT NOW I DON'T SEE THAT.

>> MY CONSCIENCE. WHEN SOMETHING BOTHERS ME, THAT'S MY CONNECTION TO WHAT'S, YOU KNOW, POSITIVE-RELATED. THAT'S WHAT GUIDES ME AND KEEPS ME IN FOCUS.

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VAL>> IN THIS ERA OF CDS AND DIGITAL MUSIC AND DOLBY SURROUND SOUND THAT JARS THE SEATS IN THEATERS LIKE THIS, IT'S EASY TO FORGET A SIMPLER TIME WHEN MUSIC CAME ON VINYL THROUGH NORMAL-SIZE SPEAKERS. BUT ONE MAN HASN'T FORGOTTEN AND IT'S A SAFE BET THAT HE'S GOT ANYTHING YOU WANT, FROM BEETHOVEN TO THE BEATLES TO EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. HE'S MUSIC MAN MURRAY. HE'S A CHARACTER AND HIS MUSIC COLLECTION IS AMAZING. AS YOU'LL SEE, HE EVEN BROUGHT HIS SONGS TO TONI GUINYARD.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> THIS IS ONE OF THE FIRST ALBUMS LIKE THIS THAT RCA PUT OUT AND IT MEANS A LOT TO ME.

TONI GUINYARD>> WITHIN SECONDS AFTER MEETING MURRAY GERSHENZ, MUSIC WILL INEVITABLY MAKE ITS WAY INTO THE CONVERSATION. JUST TAKE A LOOK AROUND HIS LOS ANGELES HOME AND IT'S CLEAR THAT MURRAY KNOWS MUSIC. THERE ARE ROWS AND ROWS OF ALBUMS HERE, STACKS AND STACKS OF CASSETTES OVER THERE.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> SEE WHAT THAT IS? SEE WHAT THESE ARE?

TONI GUINYARD>> THOSE ARE ALL TAPES.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> THESE ARE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF CASSETTES.

TONI GUINYARD>> AND THEY'RE ALL NUMBERED.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> THEY'RE ALL NUMBERED AND THEY WERE ALL CATALOGUED.

TONI GUINYARD>> WHILE SOME PEOPLE CAN SAY MUSIC IS A BIG PART OF THEIR LIVES, MURRAY WILL TELL YOU THAT MUSIC IS HIS LIFE.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> THE FIRST THING I DO WHEN I WAKE UP IS I START SINGING (LAUGHTER).

TONI GUINYARD>> SING FOR ME. SING FOR ME, PLEASE.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> WELL, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO HEAR?

TONI GUINYARD>> WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SING?

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> (LAUGHTER) I DON'T WANT TO SING ANYTHING, BUT I WILL.

TONI GUINYARD>> COME ON, SING. MAKE ME HAPPY.

[CLIP]

TONI GUINYARD>> MURRAY ONCE DREAMED OF BEING AN OPERA SINGER, BUT IT SIMPLY DIDN'T WORK OUT. IT WASN'T UNTIL 1962 THAT HE FOUND HIS CALLING. HE OPENED A RECORD STORE IN HOLLYWOOD AND NAMED IT MUSIC MAN MURRAY. THE NAME STUCK ON THE STORE AND ON THE MAN. THE STORE HAS SINCE RELOCATED TO EXPOSITION BOULEVARD IN EXPOSITION PARK. WALKING INTO IT IS LIKE WALKING INTO ANOTHER WORLD, TAKING A TRIP BACK IN TIME.

IRV GERSHENZ>> OH, MY GOD, WHAT'S IN HERE? IT'S UNBELIEVABLE. EVERYTHING FROM, YOU KNOW, 1909 TO 1999. IT'S ALL -- WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF 78'S. ANY KIND OF SWING, ANY KIND OF SWING BAND JAZZ. LIKE DOWN THIS ROW, THERE IS INTERNATIONAL, THERE IS BLUES, THERE IS FOLK. WE'VE HAD B.B. KING COME IN HERE AND BUY HIS OWN 78'S.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> PROBABLY EIGHTY-FIVE PERCENT OF WHAT I OWN, NOBODY CARES, BUT YOU KEEP IT BECAUSE SOMEBODY MAY WANT IT SOMEDAY. BUT THERE'S THAT OTHER FIFTEEN PERCENT THAT'S SO SCARCE AND HARD TO FIND THAT YOU CAN PUT A PRICE ON IT AND, WHEN THE RIGHT PERSON WANTS IT, THEN YOU CAN CHARGE FOR IT.

TONI GUINYARD>> PART OF THE EXPERIENCE OF COMING HERE IS THE CHALLENGE OF SEARCHING FOR THE RECORD YOU'VE JUST GOT TO HAVE AND LISTENING TO THE STORIES MURRAY JUST HAS TO TELL.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> ONE TIME, I WENT OUT TO LUNCH AND I CAME BACK AND THERE WAS A MAN STANDING ON TOP OF A LADDER LOOKING AT RECORDS. I LOOKED UP AT HIM AND, LIKE A DAMN FOOL, I SAID, "WHO ARE YOU?" HE SAID, "ROCK HUDSON". I SAID, "OH." (LAUGHTER)

TONI GUINYARD>> HE SAYS EVERYBODY WHO IS SOMEBODY HAS BEEN HERE AT LEAST ONCE OR TWICE LOOKING FOR A RECORD OR TWO, AND ALONG THE WAY MURRAY HAS TAUGHT HIS CUSTOMERS AND HIS CUSTOMERS HAVE TAUGHT HIM TOO, LIKE THE MAN WHO PURCHASED THE FIRST JAZZ RECORDS MURRAY SOLD YEARS AGO.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> HE CAME UP TO THE DESK AND SAID, "THIS IS TWO DOLLARS?" I SAID, "YES." HE SAID, "YOU DUMB SON OF A BITCH. THIS IS WORTH $25." (LAUGHTER) I SAID, "WHY?" HE SAID, "WELL, DON'T YOU KNOW WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE?" I SAID, "NO, WHO THE HELL ARE THEY?"

TONI GUINYARD>> HE'S LEARNED A LOT SINCE THEN, ALTHOUGH HE LOVES THE SOUND OF ALBUMS FROM DAYS GONE BY.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> I'D RATHER HEAR THEM, WARTS AND ALL, SCRATCHES AND ALL. I DON'T HEAR ANY SCRATCHES. I DON'T HEAR ANY HISS. MY EAR TUNES THAT OUT.

TONI GUINYARD>> MURRAY HAS LEARNED TO CHANGE WITH THE TIMES, KNOWS HOW TO KEEP HIS CUSTOMERS COMING.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> YOUNG PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING IN TODAY ARE LOOKING FOR RECORDS THEY CAN LISTEN TO SO THEY CAN SAMPLE THEM FOR ROCK AND ROLL OR FOR, YOU KNOW, MUSIC VIDEO --

TONI GUINYARD>> -- HIP-HOP OR --

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> HIP-HOP OR MUSIC VIDEOS.

TONI GUINYARD>> AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE TITLE OF THE SONG YOU'RE LOOKING FOR, HUM A BAR OR TWO AND MURRAY WILL TELL YOU WHAT IT IS, WHO RECORDED IT, WHEN AND WHY.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT MEMORY. IF A GUY LOVES BASEBALL, HE CAN TELL YOU THE BATTING AVERAGES OF TY COBB, BABE RUTH AND BARRY BONDS. I LOVE RECORDS. I LOVE MUSIC. I MEAN, THESE THINGS THAT YOU LOVE, THAT STICKS IN YOUR MEMORY.

TONI GUINYARD>> GERSHENZ BOUGHT HIS FIRST RECORD AT AGE SEVENTEEN. THAT STARTED WHAT HAS BECOME THIS COLLECTION. IF YOU COME SEE MUSIC MAN MURRAY, CHANCES ARE HE'LL HAVE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR, BUT FINDING IT MAY TAKE A LITTLE TIME.

IRV GERSHENZ>> A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT IS CATALOGUED. IT'S ALL DONE THE OLD-FASHIONED WAY. IT'S ALL ABC, YOU KNOW, ALL UNDER THE SPECIFIC ARTIST. YOU KNOW, CLASSICAL IS DONE BY COMPOSER. EVERYTHING ELSE IS DONE UNDER ARTIST, BUT NOT EVERYTHING IS ON THE COMPUTER. I THINK I HAVE THREE THOUSAND OUT OF, YOU KNOW, A MILLION ITEMS ON THE COMPUTER. IT'S CRAZY.

TONI GUINYARD>> PERHAPS IT IS CRAZY, BUT MURRAY WILL TELL YOU IT'S FUN.

MURRAY GERSHENZ>> IF YOU'RE LUCKY ENOUGH LIKE I AM TO WORK AT SOMETHING YOU JUST LOVE TO DO AND YOU CAN'T WAIT TO GET TO WORK IN THE MORNING, THEN I THINK THAT'S THE WAY TO GO. I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD FOLLOW THEIR LOVE. THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.

VAL>> MURRAY HAS ALWAYS HAD FAMOUS CUSTOMERS INCLUDING THE LIKES OF DUKE ELLINGTON AND MAE WEST. TODAY, JASON ALEXANDER OF "SEINFELD" FAME AND ACTOR GENE WILDER ARE AMONG MURRAY'S CLIENTELE. HE ADVERTISES IN THE YELLOW PAGES, BUT MUSIC LOVERS EVERYWHERE KNOW WHERE TO FIND HIM.

THAT'S OUR PROGRAM. REPORTING FROM THE GROVE IN LOS ANGELES'S FAIRFAX DISTRICT, I'M VAL ZAVALA. FOR ALL OF US AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

LIFE AND TIMES WAS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF
THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

VAL>> TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES, THE PEOPLE OF HACIENDA HEIGHTS VOTED NO ON CITYHOOD, BUT WHY DID THE CAMPAIGN LEAVE SUCH BITTER FEUDS?

>> CERTAINLY SOME OF THE NEIGHBORS WHO TALK OVER THE FENCE ARE GOING TO GO BACK AND TALK OVER THEIR BACK YARD FENCE AGAIN. BUT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE, FOR THINGS THEY DID, THINGS THEY SAID, THE TRUST IS GONE.

VAL>> THAT'S TOMORROW ON LIFE AND TIMES.