11/03/03

LC031103


Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times --

Saving a piece of California's past caught on tape, but will
these old recordings in Orange County last forever?

Stephanie George>> It wouldn't be the same if we were just
reading it on a piece of paper.

Charles Craig>> "In those days, there were very few jobs
available, so your traveling companion could well be a lawyer."

Val>> And then, looking for a few good workers. Gray hair is
in and seniors are suddenly in demand.

All that and more straight ahead on tonight's Life and Times.

Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of
the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality
of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of
medicine, health, science and education.

Val>> Hello, I'm Val Zavala. Imagine how it would be to roll
back the clock and take a look at southern California as it was
decades ago before all the cars and freeways and when Orange
County was actually covered with oranges. As Philip Bruce
discovered, all it takes is a few old tape recordings and some
stories and you'll find both of them locked away at Cal State
Fullerton.

Philip Bruce>> In a digital world where recordings come on
shiny disks, an old piece of tape can still work magic
especially when it serves as a time machine.

Charles Craig>> "This is, oh, between 1919 and 1923."

Philip Bruce>> Recollections of a former box car bum from
Orange County named Charles Craig. He rode the rails ten years
before the Great Depression looking for work and adventure.

Charles Craig>> "In those days, there were very few jobs
available, so your traveling companion could well be a lawyer or
perhaps a judge."

Stephanie George>> He's a character. Where else would you be
able to hear a hobo's own story in his own words?

Philip Bruce>> Stephanie George is the keeper of old stories.

Stephanie George>> Well, this is our archives.

Philip Bruce>> Long after most of the storytellers have faded
away. So these are the reel-to-reels?

Stephanie George>> Yes, these are the reel-to-reels.

Philip Bruce>> The first ones you did?

Stephanie George>> The first ones, yes. Actually, we have some
tapes that date back to about 1963. They were donated after the
program started.

Philip Bruce>> There are thousands of tapes here deep within
the library at Cal State Fullerton. It's an oral history
archive of the California story and, as a curator, Stephanie
worries about preserving it. You say it's been a learning
process, a learning curve, to figure out how to preserve them?

Stephanie George>> Yes, yes.

Philip Bruce>> You've been told different things by different
people?

Stephanie George>> Right. I think just because we have been
around for so long that the idea behind or the different ways of
preservation have changed over the years. For a long time, we
were told to rewind the tapes, forward the tapes. That will
keep them preserved. So for several years, we had people back
here, you know, playing tapes almost twenty-four hours a day in
order to make sure that that was being accommodated. Almost
overnight, there was the message to stop, stop, you're hurting
your tapes. Eeek, we put on the brakes and, you know, we
haven't been rewinding since.

Philip Bruce>> Imagine losing the words of Mary Skidmore. She
was Richard Nixon's first grade school teacher.

Mary Skidmore>> "We will always call him Richard because one
day his mother, Mrs. Hannah Nixon, came to school for something
and, during the conversation, she said, "By the way, Ms. George,
please always call my son Richard." I never did. I named him
Richard. I never forgot that."

Philip Bruce>> Mrs. Skidmore told her story in 1977, three
years after Watergate forced Nixon from the White House and
nearly sixty years after she had taught him in Yorba Linda.

Mary Skidmore>> "He was a very solemn child and rarely ever
smiled or laughed. There was no recollection to me of him
playing with others on the playground, which undoubtedly he did.
During physical education time when we all played together for
our daily twenty-minute bit, he joined in most heartily. He
absorbed knowledge of any kind like a blotter soaking up ink."

Philip Bruce>> She describes a child that sounds very much like
the man who later became president. He didn't play with other
kids that much. He was very solemn. When you listen to her,
for example, what do you think about that?

Stephanie George>> Well, I think about what it must have been
like for her as a teacher. Obviously, knowing him as a small
child, she saw those qualities that later on allowed him to
become president and she can then reflect back and say I saw
those early qualities and they were there.

Philip Bruce>> For nearly forty years, oral history has been
part of the curriculum at Cal State Fullerton and, for all of
that time, students have been conducting interviews, enough of
them to fill every nook and cranny with tapes.

Stephanie George>> After reel-to-reel became obsolete
essentially, we moved over to cassettes, so we have about 1,500
tapes now recorded on cassettes.

Philip Bruce>> The stories aren't what you'd typically find in
history books and neither are the people telling them. How Nina
Davis Lomax, once the editor of a black weekly newspaper in Los
Angeles, recalled the changing racial attitudes during World War
II.

Nina Davis Lomax>> "We wanted equal citizenship and that's one
great big joke, you know. It wasn't funny to expect Negroes to
go lay down their lives. You know, I had a brother at that time
who was a sergeant in an anti-aircraft unit. I mean, you know,
he was an engineer, which means you do the dirty work until they
decided to use Negroes in combat."

Stephanie George>> I think one of the most important things
that actually always impresses me are those people who always
say, oh, my life was really nothing to speak about. I didn't do
anything important. But as an interview goes on, you find that
the things that they were involved in, the lives that they led,
the tragedies that they encountered, the events that they were
eye-witnesses to, are really those things that make up the
fabric of our community.

Philip Bruce>> And the stories continue. A new batch are
coming from students such as Lorelei Nguyen. For her
assignment, she interviewed a family friend who came here as a
refugee from Vietnam.

Lorelei Nguyen>> She pointed out something great. She said
that, you know, for us, we were young and it was easier for us
to adapt, whereas for her, she still feels like, at the same
time, an outsider and then as American. So I asked her one
question during the interview if someone from an American
society, you know, Caucasian or whatnot, asked her if she
considers herself American. She said, it depends on what you
are asking. Like am I American because I believe in this or am
I American because I came over here and kind of adapted the
ways? So she kind of had two sides to the story. She still had
the identity crisis.

Philip Bruce>> The endless supply of stories is limited only by
the means to preserve them forever. Lately, the university has
been transferring the old tape recordings onto CDs, believing
that the discs will have a longer shelf life. But Stephanie
George still wants to protect the originals.

Stephanie George>> It's very akin to thinking about the
Declaration of Independence. Easily we all have access to
copies of that. We can print it off the internet, we can find
it in books, but there's something about preserving that
original. We've taken meaning and imbued that into that
particular article and it wouldn't be the same if we were just
reading it on a piece of paper.

Philip Bruce>> A Xerox?

Stephanie George>> A Xerox.

Charles Craig>> "Why, in 1921, I can remember when corn sold
for only nine cents a bushel and people burned it rather than to
shell it. It cost them seven and a half a bushel to get it
shelled and farmers burned it for fuel."

Philip Bruce>> Someday the archives may find a piece of
technology that's guaranteed to preserve these stories through
the ages. For now, the voices remain clear and uninterrupted, a
human link to a California that's mostly gone but not forgotten.

Val>> The oral history archive recently got funding to pay for
transferring those old tapes onto CDs, but the experts say
they're still looking for new and better ways to preserve the
originals.

Question: Will Governor-elect Schwarzenegger's celebrity help
in getting federal money for California?

>> Believe it or not, it probably does help that he's a
celebrity. It probably will get the phone answered quicker, you
know, because of his celebrity status, which is kind of say, but
I think it's true.

>> In a way, I believe it helps us because the way especially
people are, they do a little bit more when they know the person
or they have a little bit of appeal. That's one of the benefits
I think California has now with Schwarzenegger.

>> A celebrity in Washington, but everybody in D.C. thinks
they're a celebrity.

>> I don't know. Everybody seems to be impressed by
celebrities. Let's hope they are too.

>> It'll probably help us that he's a Republican because the
Republicans are in control of Congress and the presidency.

>> It doesn't hurt that people know who he is and that sort of
thing. I mean, if his celebrity helps out, you know, more power
to us, more power to him.

>> It gets us attention, that's for sure. Whether it helps us
or not, we're going to find out. He's got two and a half years
or thereabouts. We'll just see how far celebrity will go.

Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and
Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, transcripts
and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most
interesting features. Just go to kcet.org and click on "Life
and Times".

Val>> Anyone over forty who's ever looked for a job knows just
how frustrating that search can be, especially when so many
employers seem to prize youth over experience. But lately the
tables have been turning a bit. Older workers are suddenly in
and, as Toni Guinyard reports, a few companies are actually
recruiting seniors for jobs that once went to young people.

Lee Sugarman>> "This is the one she likes, hon?"

Toni Guinyard>> Lee Sugarman is not your average department
store employee.

Lee Sugarman>> "Here we go. You going to be Barbie? You like
Barbie? Yeah, I buy those all the time for my granddaughter.
She loves Barbie. Do you have the Barbie dolls?"

Toni Guinyard>> She's a grandmother of two with sixteen years
on this job. Sugarman reflects our country's graying workforce.
She has what many businesses want.

Lee Sugarman>> Experience. I bring my knowledge, I bring my
work ethics. Since Macy's been here, I've never been out a day
sick. Never had a day off outside of my regular days in
vacations, I've never been out a day sick. Look at the
schedule, come in on time, go home on time. Very important.

Toni Guinyard>> The hiring of so-called mature workers may have
once been the exception in the business world, but not anymore.
As the population ages, more businesses are beginning to
recognize the value of older workers.

Kathleen Eubanks>> The population is changing and it's really a
resource that we need to tap. It's very valuable. They're
intelligent, they've experienced a lot and it's great for us.

Toni Guinyard>> So great that the Macy's department store chain
is encouraging retirees to apply. One past employment
recruitment ad poses the question: "Retirement isn't all it's
cracked up to be?" The ad goes on to list the benefits
including respect for your life experience. It's a benefit that
appeals to candidates bored with retirement or changing careers.

Lee Sugarman>> There are many of us here, some even older than
I am.

Toni Guinyard>> would you brag and tell us how old you are?
(laughter)

Lee Sugarman>> No.

Toni Guinyard>> You have your limitations? (laughter)

Lee Sugarman>> I'm fifty-plus, I'm sixty-plus and I'm afraid to
tell you that I'm seventy-plus.

Toni Guinyard>> Lee Sugarman has a lot of company. This
employment strategy is working. Consider this: here at the
Laguna Hills Macy's store, fifty-seven of the sales associates
are over the age of fifty. Nine are over the age of seventy.

Helen Dennis>> I think the fact that Macy's acknowledges that
there is a mature workforce who can help meet their objectives
is extraordinary.

Lee Sugarman>> "Oh, the boys love these over here."

Helen Dennis>> I think that they are exhibiting a model,
obviously, of good business decisions where age is irrelevant.
I am pleased. My assumption is that these are all competent
workers. Otherwise, they wouldn't be there.

Toni Guinyard>> Helen Dennis is an expert in the fields of
aging, employment and retirement. She writes a column on
successful aging for the Daily Breeze.

Helen Dennis>> People are living longer. They are healthier,
they are more vital. The notion of literally retiring from life
as a model of retirement is one that really no longer fits very
well in 2003, so I think we're seeing a redefinition of
retirement at the same time.

Toni Guinyard>> The image of retirement is being redefined at
job centers throughout Los Angeles County. Job candidates are
assisted in preparing for and conducting their search for
employment. It's just one in a network of federal employment
training programs operated free of cost to jobseekers of all
ages, but this particular workforce center houses Career
Encores. It's a program aimed at helping people over the age of
forty find work.

Sally James>> They can't afford to be retired. They can't make
it on their small pensions or social security. They miss the
socialization.

Toni Guinyard>> Career Encores Executive Director, Sally James.

Sally James>> We can really see it that the age level is
getting higher in these centers, that more older people are
coming in, the graying of the workforce. By about 2010, the
workforce will be fifty percent of the workers.

Toni Guinyard>> James and the workforce center staff members
are part employment counselor, part personal motivator and
friend. They guide their clients through the maze of the
twenty-first century job search, introducing them to everything
from the internet to interview drills. Betty Borian is
searching for an office manager's position.

Betty Borian>> I would say ninety-five percent of employers
want computer-literate and I don't have that.

Toni Guinyard>> But you can get that.

Betty Borian>> Oh, I'm working on it. I'm going to a class
now.

Sally James>> This tends to be a generation that's pretty
modest and they go into an interview and wait to be asked. They
have to learn how to say I'm here because I have something your
company needs.

Toni Guinyard>> Rejection is part of job-hunting reality
perhaps made even more difficult with age.

Betty Borian>> There was one occasion when I thought, oh, this
guy is going to hire me and he even said I'd like to hire you,
but he didn't. It was very frustrating.

Toni Guinyard>> Searching for a job is a tough job, but as
consumers get older, hiring older workers to serve them is
taking on appeal.

Helen Dennis>> The question is, can the person do the job? Age
is completely irrelevant.

Lee Sugarman>> "Thank you very much. I hope you've had an
outstanding shopping day and I hope everything has been
outstanding."

Val>> Some retailers thrive on a youthful image and they depend
on it as a way of attracting young customers. But even in those
environments, a growing number of companies are realizing how
smart it could be to have a few grownups around just to make
sure the work gets done.

To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us
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Life and Times
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Val>> We started this program by looking back at California
history in the words of those who lived it. Our next guest
wrote the book on California, literally. Joan Didion is the
best-selling author often considered the voice of California.
Her latest book might be called the untold stories behind the
Golden State. Her book is called "Where I Was From". It's an
unromantic portrait of California as told through the myths that
so many of us were raised on, including Joan Didion, who grew up
in Sacramento, went to UC Berkeley and spent twenty-four years
of her adult life in southern California. I met Joan Didion at
the Beverly Wilshire Hotel in Beverly Hills. It took you a
while to write this book about your own home state, California.

Joan Didion>> I had to actually confront what I thought, you
know, which is not my favorite thing to do (laughter).

Val>> Confront what you thought?

Joan Didion>> What I thought, you know, what I thought about
the stories I'd been told growing up about the whole basic
narrative I'd been given about the place I came from, which
meant confronting things my family had told me which were more
fraught for me that I had thought it would be.

Val>> Well, did they tell you falsehoods?

Joan Didion>> No, they didn't tell me falsehoods. They told me
a dream (laughter).

Val>> What illusions do Californians have about themselves?

Joan Didion>> One of the things that people in California in
the early part of the American settlement, one of the things
that was a deep, deep origin really had to do with the crossing,
had to do with the arrival here, the hardships that had been
endured and survived in order to get here.

Val>> The pioneer spirit.

Joan Didion>> Which seemed to have a redemptive quality. I
mean, once you got here, you were redeemed. Nobody ever asked
what you had been redeemed for (laughter). You know, I remember
reading a book by Jack London when I was doing a lot of reading
for this book, "The Valley of the Moon", in which the two
characters whose parents cross the country have a serious
discussion with each other in which they say the government owes
them free land because their parents -- I mean, it was a whole
confused area in California thinking.

Val>> Another thing you wrote about was the decline of the
aerospace industry.

Joan Didion>> Aerospace was yet another subsidized industry.

Val>> Right, right.

Joan Didion>> There were three. The railroad was subsidized,
agriculture was subsidized in two ways. One through the
building of the water system and, two, through price supports on
the crops themselves. The defense industry, of course, was the
straightforward government contract. There was a feeling that
we deserved it and it could never go away.

Val>> Was California a good place to grow up? Did you have a
happy childhood here?

Joan Didion>> California was a very good place to grow up, yes.

Val>> But you don't live here now. You decided to live in New
York.

Joan Didion>> I've lived in New York off and on. When I got
out of Berkeley, I went to New York because I was offered a job
in New York. I mean, I could just as easily have gone to San
Francisco or Los Angeles, but nobody in either place offered me
a job. So I went to New York and I stayed there for eight
years. I had just gotten married and my husband and I decided
to move to California for six months to Los Angeles, which was
like another country to me. I mean, during the entire time I
was living and growing up in northern California, I really had
never been to Los Angeles.

Val>> They're almost like two states.

Joan Didion>> They were at that time and they are still, to
some extent, to a much less extent. My mother went to the
Olympics in Los Angeles in the early 1930's and she did not find
any reason to return until I was living here in the late 1960's
(laughter). Then we came for six months and lived here for
twenty-four years.

Val>> Did California end up disappointing you?

Joan Didion>> Did California end up disappointing me? How
could it? No. I got mad. Yes, it did end up disappointing me
in a certain way. I wanted California and Californians to be
better. I wanted them to be their best idea (laughter) because
I loved it. I mean, I still do.

Val>> So the ideal of California is something you used to love,
but we're just further and further away from it?

Joan Didion>> We seem to be further and further away from it.

Val>> Now I read somewhere that, as you get older, you get more
insecure about your writing? Are you actually insecure about
writing?

Joan Didion>> You don't get any more secure (laughter).

Val>> (Laughter) You don't get any more secure, or you get
afraid of, what, running out of things to write about?

Joan Didion>> You just get afraid that you can't do it. I
mean, which is the same way you feel when you begin it.

Val>> But you think with experience would come confidence and
mastery.

Joan Didion>> No, you start fresh every time. I mean, you
really literally do not remember from time to time that you know
how to get people in and out of rooms (laughter). You have to
relearn it every time. I think one reason is that you're a
little bit afraid of repeating yourself, so you kind of try, at
some unexamined level, to wash everything clean.

Val>> So how many more books do you think you have inside of
you?

Joan Didion>> I don't even want to think about that (laughter).
I don't know. You know, writers never retire. I mean, they
have to keep working because they don't have fantastic pension
plans (laughter).

Val>> Well, I hope there are many, many more inside of you
because you certainly contribute so much to our society. Thank
you so much.

Joan Didion>> Thank you.

Val>> And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. For everyone at
Life and Times, thanks for watching.

Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of
the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality
of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of
medicine, health, science and education.

Val>> Tomorrow on Life and Times, apes share a lot of their DNA
with humans. Some say they should also share some basic legal
rights.

>> The fact is that, if you compared a human child, a one and a
half or two or two and a half year old child, with an adult
chimp, what you'd find is that, in many ways, neurologically,
intellectually, emotionally, cognitively, they're very similar.
In some ways, the chimp is dramatically smarter and can navigate
its way through a very complicated rainforest. If you put the
two, a child and a chimp, on the same psychological battery of
tests in the laboratory somewhere, what you'd find is some very
striking similarities.

Val>> That's tomorrow on Life and Times.