02/16/05

LC050216

Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times --

What happens when a family is split apart by divorce and one
spouse wants to split with the kids?

John Eisendrath>> What if she wants to move to Oregon in two
years? What if she wants to move to Paris in three years? Am I
supposed to follow her around the world as she exercises her
rights to be selfish?

Val>> And then, an amazing woman shares her lifetime passion, a
collection of rare African-American art and memorabilia.

All that and more straight ahead on tonight's Life and Times.

Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of
the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality
of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of
medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Val>> What happens after a divorce when one parent has custody
of the children and then wants to move away, far away from the
other parent? Do they have a right to deprive the parent of
access to the kids? And what if they really have to move?
These are questions that were raised in a recent court case.
Hena Cuevas has the story and the resolution.

Hena Cuevas>> Every Sunday morning, men get a chance to have
their voices heard on the radio.

Glenn Sacks>> "I am commentator and columnist, Glenn Sacks, the
defender of the much-maligned American male."

Hena Cuevas>> The show is called "His Side" and the topics
discussed relate to family and gender from a decidedly male
perspective. Why did you decide to start this radio show?

Glenn Sacks>> Well, I think there are a lot of very important
issues out there for men and particularly for fathers that
aren't getting media attention. You know, our whole Family
Court system is separating children from the father that they
love and need and, for the most part, people aren't talking
about it.

Hena Cuevas>> He's talking about what Family Courts refer to as
a move-away, a big issue with his listeners.

Glenn Sacks>> "So if she wants to go, she should be able to go
and she should, but that doesn't mean she can cart the children
with her."

Hena Cuevas>> In recent years, one of the most contentious
issues surrounding divorced parents is that of a move-away.
Should a parent who has primary custody of the children, in many
cases the mother, be allowed to move and take the kids away from
the other parent, usually the father?

Glenn Sacks>> These fathers, they love their children just like
the mothers do and they want to be a part of their children's
lives. They don't want to be a Disneyland dad who sees the kid
a few days a month and takes them out for ice cream. They want
to be a part of their children's lives on a day-to-day basis.

John Eisendrath>> Personally, I think that, you know, any
parent that wants to move away better have a pretty good reason.

Hena Cuevas>> John Eisendrath is a television producer who
separated from his wife in 1998. He lives in Los Angeles, but
in August of 2003, his then ex-wife moved two hundred miles away
taking their two boys with her. That distance, he says, made it
difficult for him to keep the relationship he had tried to
maintain with his kids after the divorce.

John Eisendrath>> I would pick the boys up after school. I
would give them their dinner. I would give them their baths. I
would read them their books. I would get them to bed. Only
after they were asleep would I leave. I was in their lives four
and often five days a week doing just that. Anything in red
represents appeals or orange and anything in white is from the
trial court.

Hena Cuevas>> So he took his case to court to convince the
judge that the move was -- and this is the legal term --
"detrimental" to the children.

John Eisendrath>> I'm motivated by the fact that I want my
children back and I believe that I am an example of a good
father caught in a bad system.

Hena Cuevas>> Carol Bruch is a visiting law professor at UCLA
who works for the rights of mothers who want to move. She says
that, if the primary parent decides to relocate, they may have
to relinquish custody to the other parent.

Carol Bruch>> Even the suggestion of a move by a custodial
parent who has been the primary caregiver since the child was
born may end up causing a custody transfer to the other parent.

Hena Cuevas>> The threat of losing the child, she says, is
enough to prevent a parent from pursuing a better job or a
better life.

Carol Bruch>> It's essentially asking the mom and kids to be a
satellite to the dad and they may have to give up huge
opportunities.

Glenn Sacks>> Well, I'm not saying that nobody should be able
to move. What I'm just saying is that the current system is
very abusive to children and to fathers because it practically
gives women the right to just move wherever they want whenever
they want.

Hena Cuevas>> The landmark 1996 Marriage of Burgess case stated
that the parent bears no burden of demonstrating that a move is
necessary. In other words, it was the parent left behind who
had to show how the move would be harmful. However, in April of
last year, the State Supreme Court in a six to one ruling
indicated that judges must consider the ongoing relationship
between the child and the parent staying behind and how the move
would affect it. Bruch, together with other women's groups, is
worried that this limits divorced mothers as they try to get
away from abusive or violent relationships or try to look for
better opportunities sometimes with a new family.

Carol Bruch>> Sometimes it costs them their second marriage
because, if your husband is with the military or something like
this happens, you're between a rock and a hard place.

Hena Cuevas>> Is this a man versus woman issue, father's rights
versus mother's rights?

Carol Bruch>> What's sad is that I think, in large part, it is
right now.

John Eisendrath>> They feel like something that they felt was a
right of theirs got taken away. What has always confounded me
is how anyone could think that, you know, the right of a mom or
a dad supercedes what's best for a boy or a girl.

Hena Cuevas>> Eisendrath can afford the cost of a long legal
battle, but with paying for child support and working as a TV
producer, moving is not an option.

John Eisendrath>> I have to work. I can't afford not to work.
There's no job for me there, so there is no practical reality to
that.

Glenn Sacks>> The father can't move. He's got to pay child
support based on the income that he makes now. He can't just
decide, well, I'm just going to quit my university professor job
and then go somewhere and teach as a substitute teacher
somewhere because I want to be with my kids.

Carol Bruch>> So there's no easy answer here. You're either
frustrating the opportunities of the household in which the
child is and perhaps new relationships and opportunities to make
a better life for yourselves or you are potentially moving that
child into a different household and children are not sacks of
potatoes.

Hena Cuevas>> She cites research that indicates moves aren't
all that bad. She says the secondary parent can still continue
to have a meaningful relationship even without the face-to-face
contact.

Carol Bruch>> There really are ways to remain physically in the
neighborhood of your child as well as these web cams where you
can talk to them and emails and faxes and letters. If you have
the children for a couple of months in the summer and a few
weeks at the holidays and all the long weekends during the
school year, you've got a lot of time with those children.

Glenn Sacks>> You can't be a real parent to your children if
you only see them in the summers and on holidays or if you only
see them every other weekend or a few days a month. You can't
be a meaningful parent.

Hena Cuevas>> Last year, Eisendrath wrote an Opinion article
for the Los Angeles Times called "Divorced Dads and Fairness".

John Eisendrath>> Men are every bit as important to their
children. They need their dad no less than they need their mom.
Not one speck less. Even if the dad is out there busting his
ass, working to provide for that family, while mom is home
taking care of their home needs. It doesn't matter one bit.
They need both their parents.

Hena Cuevas>> After years of legal back and forth, Eisendrath
has the latest legal decision in his favor, but it might be a
little late. It's already been a year and a half since his ex-
wife and sons moved away.

John Eisendrath>> My dream is their mom, whether through court
order or because she understands it's best for them, ends up
with the boys back here.

Hena Cuevas>> I'm Hena Cuevas for Life and Times.

Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and
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and Times".

Val>> He's emerged as the pre-eminent historian for the Golden
State. His books sweep across a century of California history
and Kevin Starr is also an impassioned spokesman on the forces
that have shaped California culture. Saul Gonzalez talked with
Starr about his latest book which focuses on the 1990's and
early twenty-first century, a decade that includes immigration
battles and an actor turned governor.

Saul Gonzalez>> Kevin Starr, thank you for joining us on Life
and Times.

Kevin Starr>> Thank you, Saul, for having me here.

Saul Gonzalez>> How would you, broadly speaking, characterize
California's journey through history through the last years of
the twentieth century and the first years of the twenty-first?

Kevin Starr>> I would characterize the last thirteen years as a
time of extraordinary challenge and transformation. We are
undergoing a transformation that is leading us a different kind
of place altogether, a world community, a global culture, and a
state which, in terms of its governmental structures, is in the
process now of re-founding itself fiscally.

So I don't think that any other decade, other than obviously
watershed decades like the 1840's or early 1850's, but certainly
the decade and plus that we've just gone through and we're still
going through that process, is really giving us a new
California, the twenty-first century California. It's a time of
transformation.

Saul Gonzalez>> As we enter into the twenty-first century, what
ideals do we leave behind in the past in the twentieth century
and what do we take forward?

Kevin Starr>> I think the big ideal we're leaving behind in
California in the twentieth century is that California is in
some way a way of escaping reality. It's in some way of getting
the unearned increment or what Edmund Burt called "the unbought
grace of life", that California is the solution to all sorts of
problems.

I think we're getting a new kind of concept of California now.
California is a place of American struggle, world struggle, and
that California is not a place to lay back and to drop out. In
fact, it's a place to be on the edge, the cutting edge, the edge
of self-definition, of professional development. So I think the
state is becoming much more competitive, more gritty, more
internalizing of a tragic sense of life. It's becoming a more
mature culture.

Saul Gonzalez>> I wonder in a state this vast, so socially
fragmented with so many newcomers, do you think we have a common
sense of being Californian?

Kevin Starr>> I think today, given all that you've discussed,
the coming of new people, the multiple states of consciousness
that they represent, the languages, the traditions, the
religions, etc., we're struggling for a common sector in
California. We're struggling for a sense of the common good.
I'm very heartened by the revelations in census 2000 showing
that our under-eighteen Californians have achieved all sorts of
interconnections across racial, religious, ethnic lines and have
a growing sense of common identity that sees the differences as
part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Saul Gonzalez>> They do because, certainly in the 1990's, you
heard a lot about tribalism running amok in California, we're
becoming the new Yugoslavia. You think, what, that was too
bleak an assessment?

Kevin Starr>> No, I think we faced that gorgon in the face and
we resisted that temptation. We turned away.

Saul Gonzalez>> Of course, immigration has been a topic of much
concern in California over the last several years. The
controversy aside, I wonder if, speaking more widely and
historically, there's been a society that's been so transformed
so quickly by the arrival of newcomers?

Kevin Starr>> Well, I think California is on the cutting edge
of a larger -- in terms of immigration, California is on the
cutting edge of a larger American reality. This great nation of
ours between 1820 and 1920 took in one hundred million
immigrants, so immigration is in our DNA code as an American
people. In each case, newcomers who came to the east coast were
looked on skeptically, saying will they assimilate? Will they
be part of whatever this emergent American pattern is?

I think that California today is on the cutting edge of that
cycle of immigration which is reaching new intensity with the
reform of the immigration laws in the mid-1960's. California is
becoming Hispanic, California is becoming Asian.

Saul Gonzalez>> Let's speak less about statewide issues and
look at the city where we sit here in Los Angeles. How has its
role changed in the greater California tale over the last ten or
fifteen years?

Kevin Starr>> Los Angeles is rising up now as the capital city,
the intersection of a digital technology and culture,
infotainment, the relationship between entertainment and the
formation of value, and an ecumenical experiment that a city can
simultaneously be American, thoroughly American, thoroughly
Californian, but also simultaneously be a great Mexican city, a
great Armenian city, a great Ethiopian city, a great Korean city
as well. That's the new kind of formula because it imposes
multiple levels of culture and we're getting used to handling
that now.

Saul Gonzalez>> Let's move away from grand historical trends to
a personality and that personality is Arnold Schwarzenegger. Do
you think, in the grand scheme of California history, that he's
an important figure?

Kevin Starr>> I think Arnold Schwarzenegger, if he continues to
function as governor the way he has, will go down as one of our
greatest governors, one of our two or three greatest governors.
I think Governor Schwarzenegger is an instinctive Progressive,
with a capital "P". Progressivism, which reshaped our
government in the early 1900's, is in the DNA code of public
life in California.

We have extremes of left and right in the state, but for all our
alleged wackiness and eccentricity, Californians have been, by
and large, centrist in their policies through most of the
nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century. We had
cross-filing up until the 1950's where a Republican could go
into a Democratic primary and vice versa. I think that
progressive center holds in this state. Now I'm not --

Saul Gonzalez>> -- and the governor understands that.

Kevin Starr>> He understands that and that's why he's sixty-
seven percent because he stays with that center.

Saul Gonzalez>> Let's move out of the past and away from
present concerns in looking ahead to what remains of the twenty-
first century. If we're to maintain a decent society in this
state, what challenge do we have to confront and to solve?

Kevin Starr>> I think we have to take our problems, we have to
put our finances in order, we have to manage our growth, we have
to ensure a good life for our future generations. All of our
practical avenues have to be enlivened by a sense of what a
precious gift California is, how privileged we are to live in
this community at this time under the protection of the American
Constitution and the Constitution of the State of California and
have this glorious place, this glorious heritage, this glorious
opportunity before us.

If we have that, we can argue, we can hammer out practical
decisions, etc., but the party of California embracing
Republicans, Democrats and Independents, the party of California
will be alive and well. When that sentiment is alive and well,
we'll come to solutions, sometimes brokered solutions where
there'll be losses and gains for different people. But we'll
come to California-wide solutions. California will become part
of the solution and not the problem.

Saul Gonzalez>> Kevin Starr, thank you so much for joining us
on Life and Times. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Kevin Starr>> Thank you, Saul. It was a pleasure to be with
you again.

To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us
by mail at this address:

Life and Times
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Los Angeles, California 90027

You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or
contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org.

Val>> Black History Month is a time to focus on African-
American stories. But for one woman, it's a passion year-round.
Her name is Mayme Clayton and I heard she had a valuable
collection of black literature and memorabilia in her garage.
So I wanted to check it out and went to the Crenshaw District to
see it for myself.

Val>> Hello. Hi, Mayme. How are you?

Mayme Clayton>> Fine. Nice to see you.

Val>> You too. That's a pretty gold blouse.

Mayme Clayton>> Thank you. Come on in.

Val>> So we came to see this legendary collection of yours.

Mayme Clayton>> Okay. Just push the door together there.

Val>> And I hear it's, what, out in the back?

Mayme Clayton>> Oh, yes. We have to go out in the back so we
can see everything.

Val>> Well, you lead the way. I'll follow you. You have lived
here a long time. I can tell.

Mayme Clayton>> Yeah, we bought this place in 1946 and we had
to do a lot of remodeling to it.

Val>> So you moved away for a short time up to View Park?

Mayme Clayton>> Yeah, I stayed up there for quite a few years
and then I decided this house was paid for, so I moved back down
here.

Val>> Now did this used to be the garage here or is this a
little house?

Mayme Clayton>> This is a double garage and I converted it into
the library. I had a guy put the shelves in here for all the
books.

[Film Clip]

Mayme Clayton>> I've collected all of these things.

Val>> Do you know how many books you have here? You counted?
(laughter)

Mayme Clayton>> (Laughter) Well, I think it's close to about
twenty thousand.

Val>> Now, Avery, you're her son?

Avery Clayton>> Yes.

Val>> Now when did your mom start collecting things? Do you
recall when you were a kid, did she like to --

Avery Clayton>> -- Well, when we were little, she was
collecting.

Val>> Now what's some of your favorite items that you've
collected that you like really value?

Mayme Clayton>> My really favorite one is Phillis Wheatley. I
have a book.

Val>> Phillis Wheatley? Do you have it here?

Mayme Clayton>> Yes.

Val>> Can you show it to us?

Mayme Clayton>> Sure.

Val>> Oh, great. Show it to us.

Mayme Clayton>> It's in here. Is it okay if we go into the
other room?

Val>> By all means. You go right ahead. We'll follow you.

Mayme Clayton>> Phillis Wheatley was brought to this country
from Africa as a slave at the age of nine years old. The
Wheatleys lived in Boston and they saw her and they decided to
buy her, purchase her. They purchased her and they taught her
how to read and how to write.

Val>> She like wrote her own autobiography? Look at this.

Mayme Clayton>> It's some poems she wrote.

Val>> Oh, I almost don't want to hold this. 1773?

Mayme Clayton>> Yes. She signed it. This copy is signed by
Phillis Wheatley.

Val>> Beautiful. So this is a collection of poems that she
wrote.

Mayme Clayton>> Yes, right.

Val>> Now what other things do you like especially in your
collection?

Mayme Clayton>> I have this book. This is a book that was
written by Booker T. Washington. Have you ever heard of him?
(laughter)

Val>> (Laughter) I've heard of him. "Black-Belt Diamonds".

Mayme Clayton>> Yes. He signed it.

Val>> Oh, my gosh. 1898. July 30, 1898.

Avery Clayton>> This is Martin Luther King's "Stride Toward
Freedom". If you'll notice, that's his signature there.

Val>> Oh, that's valuable.

Mayme Clayton>> Yes, yes, it is.

Avery Clayton>> Alex Haley, who wrote "Roots", became a very
good friend of my mother before his death and this is his
signature here. He inscribed it to her.

Val>> Well, look at this. "For the Western -- yeah, read that
for us.

Avery Clayton>> "For the Western States Black Research Center,
my brothers and sisters, I deeply share your sentiments that our
history should be preserved. Sincerely, Alex Haley."

Val>> That is really nice. So did you meet him, Mayme?

Mayme Clayton>> Oh, yes. I knew him very well.

Val>> Was he nice guy?

Mayme Clayton>> Very nice, very nice.

Val>> And you also have some other famous authors that have
signed, right?

Mayme Clayton>> Oh, yes, yes.

Val>> Let's see what you have.

Mayme Clayton>> Okay. I have some other books here that I would
like to show you. I'm sure you have heard of Langston Hughes.

Val>> Everyone's heard of him. That's amazing. Langston
Hughes.

Mayme Clayton>> Yes. He was a very good friend of mine.

Avery Clayton>> "The Big Sea".

Val>> Carmel, January 20, 1941, Langston Hughes, and the book
is "The Big Sea".

Mayme Clayton>> It's like an autobiography.

Val>> That's wonderful. And what is this one? Oh, this is
pretty.

Mayme Clayton>> Now this in first edition only. The poetry was
written by Paul Lawrence Dunbar.

Avery Clayton>> Feel the cover.

Val>> Isn't that pretty. Oh, it's almost like embossed.

Mayme Clayton>> Paul Lawrence Dunbar wrote the verses. The
Hampton Camera Club took the photographs and Barbara Armstrong
did the decorations around it. But the verses are so beautiful.

Avery Clayton>> And they're written in black dialect.

Val>> Oh, really? So there are verses and photographs. It's
hard to write in dialect.

Mayme Clayton>> Yeah. Hard to read it too.

Avery Clayton>> Actually, Paul Lawrence Dunbar is really
popular in Japan.

Val>> And, Avery, you have a favorite one too?

Avery Clayton>> Oh, yeah. This is the one book that I love.
This one was published in 1826 and it's called "The Negro's
Complaint". It's a poem. Actually, it's "The Negro's
Complaint: a Poem" to which is added "Pity for Poor Africans" by
William Calpert.

Mayme Clayton>> Calpert was an abolitionist.

Val>> Oh, he was.

Avery Clayton>> And the thing that I love about this is all
these little illustrations here. They're all hand-painted. Now
what they did was print them in black and white and then an
artist went in and hand-painted each one. It's just a beautiful
little work of art.

Val>> Now how did you get into library work?

Mayme Clayton>> Well, actually, I went to apply for a job over
at the Doheny Library and they had an ad in the paper. When I
got there, the guy said we were advertising for a man, but I
guess we can take you (laughter), so I got the job and I started
working at the library.

Val>> They couldn't say that today, you know. They'd get in
trouble (laughter).

Mayme Clayton>> (Laughter) Well, anyway, they gave me the job.

Val>> What's going to happen to all this, you hope?

Avery Clayton>> Well, you know, we've got to get it out of
here. You know, that's the real concern because we've been
really fortunate in that there hasn't been any damage to the
collection. Our goal is to establish a world-class library-
based museum and cultural center. We're going to do that here
in Southern California. You know, we want to make this
collection available. This is a real treasure and I am so
hugely proud of what my mom has done. You know, she's actually
saved black history and how important is that? You know, that's
like a huge thing to do. You know, she had a vision.

Val>> Well, what would you like your legacy to be? What do you
want to know that you've done?

Mayme Clayton>> I just want to know that we're passing this
information, all these things that I have gathered, to future
generations. It's not always for black kids. It's for any kid,
you know? It's lessons here for anybody. Some of the same
things that our kids go through, other kids are going through
those same problems. If we can help each other and work
together to make our children feel proud, I think that's what we
want to do.

Val>> Thank you so much. It was just such a pleasure.

Mayme Clayton>> Thank you so very much.

Val>> Okay. Take care.

Avery Clayton>> Bye-bye.

Val>> Mayme's son, Avery, is looking for a more appropriate
place for his mother's books. He's talking to several
organizations about a permanent home for her collection. And
that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. For everyone at Life and
Times, thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of
the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality
of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of
medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Val>> Next time on Life and Times --

The shooting death of a teenager prompted change in the LAPD
policy, but is it enough to calm the community?

>> They have to see the people that they are policing,
particularly in some more troubled communities, to see them as
human beings, to see them as people and not necessarily here's
an opportunity to bring someone down.

Val>> That's next time on Life and Times.