 |
HOME |  |
SCHEDULE | |
PROGRAMS | |
KIDS & FAMILY | |
EXPLORE CA | |
SUPPORT KCET | |
ABOUT US | |
SHOP KCET |  |
| About Us | Contact Us | |
 |
|
 |
          |
|
|
 |
 |
||
|
|
Life & Times Transcript
06/23/05 Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times -- A remote canyon in Malibu is the site for a complicated standoff. Which should be saved? An historic dam or an endangered fish? Suzanne Goode>> Sometimes we have to make difficult decisions and perhaps sacrifice one a little bit for the sake of the other. Val>> And then, in twenty years of live radio, you get highlights and lowlights. Larry Mantle shares both from his two decades on the air. It's all straight ahead on tonight's Life and Times. Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Val>> You've probably never seen it, but along Malibu Creek, there's a dam. It's big, old and, environmentalists say, useless. And they say, as long as the dam is there, it will prevent the return of steelhead trout to the river. So should the dam be destroyed? As Hena Cuevas tells us, it's costly, complicated and the question is, is a fish worth it? Hena Cuevas>> It's hard to believe that Malibu, with one of the priciest real estate prices in the state, used to be farm country. Back in 1892, these thirteen thousand acres were called the Malibu Ranch, owned by the Frederick Rindge family. In the 1930's, they slowly started selling portions of the property, paving the way for modern day Malibu. Glen Howell>> The name Rindge is so important to Malibu. It's almost like you can't say Malibu without saying Rindge. Hena Cuevas>> Glen Howell is a docent at the Malibu Lagoon Museum. He says the history of the area and the Rindge family are closely inter-connected. Unfortunately, he says nothing in Malibu has the Rindge family name on it except this dam which they built in 1924 to irrigate their crops and provide water to the area. Glen Howell>> It's probably the best built dam in America and it's a unique structure. There's no dam quite built like that dam. Hena Cuevas>> The Rindge Dam is one hundred feet high with a concrete arch structure and a spillway next to it. Just off of Malibu Canyon Road, very few people have heard of it or even know where it is. Glen Howell>> Its location is very remote. It's very difficult to get to it. It's way up the canyon and there's no trail. Hena Cuevas>> But they're slowly hearing about it because now this eighty year old structure is at the center of an environmental controversy. Jim Edmondson>> The Rindge Dam has been a public nuisance since 1953 when it stopped storing water and providing that resource for the community of Malibu. Hena Cuevas>> Jim Edmondson is a member of California Trout, one of the organizations that wants the dam to go. He says the dam has outlived its purpose since Malibu was connected to the Los Angeles water supply in the 1950's. Jim Edmondson>> Today it's causing the erosion of the beaches and hurting the local economy and it's also preventing a very important fish from migrating upstream to its headwaters and it is now an endangered species in a big part because of this dam. Hena Cuevas>> The fish is the steelhead trout, a federally endangered species. They can be found in most of the streams flowing into the ocean from San Luis Obispo County north. Like salmon, they're born in fresh water and travel to the ocean to complete their growth. They then return to their native fresh water, but unlike salmon, they don't die after spawning and can reproduce again. According to Edmondson, steelhead trout used to number in the hundreds in these waters. Jim Edmondson>> Clark Gable and Spencer Tracy didn't have to go to Alaska. They came to Malibu Creek. Hena Cuevas>> That is, until the construction of the Rindge Dam which, he argues, is keeping the trout from going upstream. Jim Edmondson>> It's prevented the fish from using over ninety-five percent of the stream. They're trapped now here in the lower two miles of Malibu Creek. It's a hundred ten square mile watershed and they're only using just a small fraction of it. Suzanne Goode>> Well, this is a great spot because we're looking directly down into Malibu Canyon and you can see the water coming over the spillway of the dam. Hena Cuevas>> Suzanne Goode is an ecologist with California State Parks. She fears there might only be about fifty steelhead left. Suzanne Goode>> Eventually they make their way all the way back down to the lagoon again and spend a few months in the lagoon getting used to the brackish waters there before they venture out into the ocean. Hena Cuevas>> But even that number of fish isn't enough to help the population that's currently living there? Suzanne Goode>> It really isn't. I believe they're probably on the decline because they really aren't able to produce enough offspring because they don't have enough area in which to reproduce. Hena Cuevas>> Goode says these particular steelhead are important because they've been able to adapt to the waters of Southern California. Suzanne Goode>> If the global warming really starts to take hold and all of the northern streams get too warm for the steelhead there, these steelhead that we have here may be the only ones that are able to survive in a warmer climate. Hena Cuevas>> But getting rid of the dam hasn't been easy. Descendants of the Rindge family are fighting to preserve it even though they no longer own the property. Some like Howell argue that the dam is important because of what it did for the area. Glen Howell>> It has a significant historical role in the development of Malibu and this unique family that owned Malibu until through the 1930's. So from that standpoint, there are those that think it should be on the National Register of historic places, like this house. Hena Cuevas>> The house he's referring to is the Adamson Museum. It was the beach home built in 1930 by Frederick Rindge's daughter, Rhoda Rindge, and her husband, Merritt Adamson. The Rindge Dam provided water to the house. Glen Howell>> And it has a little tag on it that says "Dam Water". Hena Cuevas>> But has the family been able to make a connection that, because the house is an historical monument and is connected via the valve there, the dam should also be considered part of it? Glen Howell>> They are certainly making a case for that and, in my mind, there's a strong case. Hena Cuevas>> And destroying the dam is not a simple proposition. It may have some unintended consequences. One of the side effects of building the dam is that it kept a lot of the sediment from the creek from making it to the ocean and, throughout the decades, it limited the size of the beaches all along Malibu. If the dam were to be removed, all of the sediment could make it back to the ocean. The giant reservoir is about ninety percent full of silt and rock and, according to recent tests, forty percent is considered contaminated by the runoff from urban development upstream. There is also concern about the consequences of releasing all of that pent-up material. Suzanne Goode>> One of the ways that we considered that we might remove the dam is to let the stream do the work of removing the sediment. But if the stream should happen to drop a lot of sediment adjacent to someone's home, then that could cause flooding and that's something that we cannot allow to happen. Hena Cuevas>> It's estimated that demolishing the dam would take about five years and cost forty million dollars and, according to Edmondson, it would result in more steelhead trout. Jim Edmondson>> Studies indicate that we can increase the population by at least one hundred fifty percent by removing this dam. Hena Cuevas>> That sounds like a lot, but if there are only an estimated fifty trout to begin with, their numbers would increase to only one hundred twenty-five. For Howell, that's just too much money for too few fish. Glen Howell>> Why spend all the money that it would take to tear it down? So that's one very clear issue. So I'd say that's probably, in my mind, economics. It just doesn't make sense to spend that much money. Suzanne Goode>> Well, if it is decided that the dam should come down and that it's feasible, I don't think you can really put a price tag on that. What is it worth to have the grizzly bear, for instance? What is it worth to have the trout? It's really priceless. Jim Edmondson>> They are on the brink of extinction. It's time for us to decide. Do we save them for our children or do we wave goodbye? Hena Cuevas>> For Goode, this is an example of the modern dilemma. Do you preserve history or help save an endangered species? Suzanne Goode>> Sometimes we have to make difficult decisions and perhaps sacrifice one a little bit for the sake of the other. Hena Cuevas>> In 1999, State Parks together with the Army Corps of Engineers began a two million dollar feasibility study to determine if removing the dam would be the best way to return the trout to these waters. The study should be finished this year and the next step will be to design a plan on how to best to tear the structure down. Glen Howell>> If this dam was to be torn down and people were to know the significance of what's being torn down, I don't think it would end there. I respect their feelings. They're good people. We just have different views and we're trying to work through a common solution and a compromise. Hena Cuevas>> But in this case, finding a compromise may be harder than swimming upstream. I'm Hena Cuevas for Life and Times. Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org and click on "Life and Times". Val>> Catholicism is getting some stiff competition these days in Central America from Pentecostal and Evangelical religions. But what do they have to offer that the Catholic Church can't? Saul Gonzalez went to Guatemala to find out. [Film Clip] Saul Gonzalez>> For centuries, faith in Latin America has largely been synonymous with Catholic rites and rituals like this traditional religious procession through the streets of Guatemala City on the eve of Lent. Yet increasingly, the Catholic Church's spiritual dominance in this part of the world is being challenged by other faiths, namely Evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity. In recent years, Evangelical Protestant churches have attracted millions of followers in Latin America and moved from the margins of religious life into the mainstream. In Guatemala, it's estimated that up to forty percent of the population identify themselves as Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians. Pastor Arnulfo Urla>> Over the last twenty years here, there has been a complete transformation in the country because of evangelism. It's more than a religion. It's a complete way of life. Saul Gonzalez>> Arnulfo Urla is pastor of the Church of Christ, a Pentecostal house of worship in Guatemala City. Pastor Arnulfo Urla>> This was a country that was Catholic, almost one hundred percent Catholic, because that was the traditional faith. But then God awakened in people the need to spread evangelism and now this isn't just a Catholic country. Now many Guatemalans are committed Christian Evangelicals. Saul Gonzalez>> Although the Catholic Church still remains a dominant force in Latin America's religious life, many in the church are troubled by the advance of Evangelical and Pentecostal denominations in the region. Father Jim Fredericks>> I think, for a lot of traditional Roman Catholics in Latin America and also in Rome, I think the rise of Evangelical Protestantism in Latin America is perceived as a major threat. Saul Gonzalez>> Father Jim Fredericks, who teaches at Los Angeles's Loyola Marymount University, is an expert on Roman Catholic doctrine and the church's relationship to other faiths. He says, in Latin America and other areas of the developing world, the Catholic Church is having trouble accepting a new age of spiritual competition. Father Jim Fredericks>> The idea that you can simply presume that everybody in Latin America is Roman Catholic to one degree or another, that era is over. This is a huge challenge. This is an amazing demand that is being placed on an institution that is as old and whose symbols go as deep as the Catholic Church. [Film Clip] Saul Gonzalez>> In Latin America, examples of Protestant Christianity's growing influence are everywhere from massive televised religious services or celebrity evangelists claiming to channel God's power to heal the disabled, to the construction of American style mega churches which dominate city skylines, to the establishment of thousands of humble storefront churches like Pastor Urla's where worship services can resemble a raucous party. Indeed, many people say they are attracted to the Protestant churches because of their strong emphasis on emotionally charged and ecstatic forms of worship, worship which congregants say give them a closer relationship to the divine. >> I feel like my life changes completely when I'm in this church. It feels like this fire is in your heart, which completely changes you. You feel the presence of God like He is right here with you. Saul Gonzalez>> Aggressive use of the mass media is one reason why Protestant Christianity has prospered in the Spanish speaking world. Many large Evangelical and Pentecostal churches now own their own television and radio stations which broadcast religious programming to the most remote regions of Latin America. Many Evangelical and Pentecostal leaders also credit the Catholic Church for Protestant successes in Latin America. The Evangelicals argue that the Catholic Church's emphasis on traditional ceremonies and respect for hierarchy aren't satisfying peoples' spiritual cravings, thus causing them to leave the church and embrace Protestant denominations. Father Jim Fredericks>> You have to give them credit. They apparently are meeting a religious need. So the Catholic Church has to make an adjustment. Saul Gonzalez>> Father Fredericks believes that, if the Catholic Church is to remain strong and relevant in countries like Guatemala, it must be willing to reform its liturgy to more effectively connect with people in the pews. Those reforms might even mean borrowing some charismatic forms of worship from the Evangelical churches. Father Jim Fredericks>> I suspect that the competition may be good for Roman Catholicism. In the long run, there may be fewer Roman Catholics, but the Roman Catholics will be more dedicated, more converted, more eager to think about their faiths in very personal ways and to try to live out that faith. This will be a deepening of the faith. There may be fewer Roman Catholics, but the Roman Catholicism, I think, will be richer. [Film Clip] Saul Gonzalez>> Yet even as Evangelical Christians and Catholics vie for hearts, minds and souls in countries like Guatemala, this competition might just be the tip of a much larger religious phenomenon. Many scholars say that the kind of changes happening here in Guatemala's religious landscape, especially the rise of Evangelical faiths, are part of a global transformation of Christianity, a transformation that promises to change the complexion and character of the Christian faith in the decades to come. Dennis Smith>> It's probably the most important thing happening in not just Christian faith, but in religion. Saul Gonzalez>> Dennis Smith, who directs the Evangelical Center for Pastoral Studies in Central America, writes extensively about faith in the developing world. He echoes many religious scholars when he says there is a growing gulf between rich and poor nations in their attitudes toward religion. Dennis Smith>> Indeed, if you look at the overall shift of the Christian church throughout the world, there's now a decided shift from the north to the south. That is, there's now more people practicing and confessing Christian faith in the countries of the south than there are in countries of the north. That's probably at least partially an indication of the daily experience of exclusion, economic, political, cultural, gender exclusion, that most people in most countries are experiencing on a daily level. Saul Gonzalez>> As he plays his small role in this global transformation of religion, Pastor Urla believes, like other poor countries, Guatemala's most powerful cultural export in the years ahead will be its faith. Pastor Arnulfo Urla>> I remember when foreign missionaries used to come to Guatemala to spread the word of Jesus Christ, but now it's Guatemala that sends missionaries to other countries. Saul Gonzalez>> For Life and Times, I'm Saul Gonzalez. To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address: Life and Times 4401 Sunset Blvd. Los Angeles, California 90027 You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org. Val>> His voice is familiar to thousands of public radio listeners across Southern California. He is Larry Mantle, host of AirTalk. But would you believe he was originally interested in politics? Then the ministry? Then sports? But he ended up at KPCC and AirTalk is now the longest continuously broadcast daily talk show in Los Angeles. Now he has brought it together in a book, "The Best 21 Interviews From AirTalk". I talked with Larry Mantle at the downtown Los Angeles studio of KPCC radio. Larry Mantle>> Your big interview is so different than interviewing someone else, but I guess I have to get used to this. Val>> Yeah, the tables are turned (laughter). Larry Mantle>> Right. Val>> You write in your book, first of all, an autobiographical section. You have a very interesting background. You took a circuitous route before you landed in broadcasting. Larry Mantle>> I did. I went to Hollywood High School here in Los Angeles and it was a very sort of liberal kind of environment, went from there to a Christian college and thought I was going to go into the ministry, only then to land at Fuller Theological Seminary which brought me to Pasadena to pursue graduate ministerial studies. Then I realized that wasn't for me and went where my heart, I think, always was, which was to radio. Val>> With a stop along the way in sports broadcasting. Larry Mantle>> Yes. Actually that's what I thought I wanted to do was to be a sports announcer. When I started at KPCC, they were doing a lot of play-by-play sports at Pasadena City College, Whittier College, I did UCLA women's basketball. Then I realized that I really wanted to do something different that encompassed many more areas since I have a lot of different interests. So that's how I got into this. Val>> Now you're a homegrown, hometown boy and your grandparents are also from Los Angeles and had really interesting backgrounds. Larry Mantle>> That's true. I'm one of those very rare fourth generation Angelenos. My great-grandfather came here at the turn of the twentieth century. Both my grandfathers were in Los Angeles for many years, one of them born here. One of my grandfathers was an LAPD homicide detective back in the L.A. Confidential era and I've got these lurid pulp detective magazines with photos of my grandfather doing these staged LAPD shots pulling a gun out of Echo Park Lake with his suspenders and fedora and his pants rolled up because he'd solved some murder case. My other grandfather was a physician. He was the Bullocks-Wilshire house doctor for a number of years, had two practices, one on Wilshire Boulevard, the other in the Baldwin Hills area. He ended up in his later years working for a Masters and Johnson type sex clinic as the physician at that place, making sure couples didn't have a physical problem before they went into sex therapy. Val>> Which made for some very interesting dinner conversations when you were a teenager (laughter). Larry Mantle>> They did, absolutely. My grandparents were very open-minded people to talk about politics and social issues and even things that might be considered quite intimate to talk about at the family dinner table. All of this was grist for the conversational mill. So I grew up really without many conversational barriers at all and my parents were the same way. Our dinnertime conversations would go on two hours, sometimes longer. We'd be done eating and we'd still be talking about what's going on in the world. Val>> And you've done thousands of interviews. How did you choose among the thousands of interviews you've done the twenty-one that would go into eternity? Larry Mantle>> It was really, really difficult. First of all, without consulting any lists of guests I'd interviewed, I tried to just think which are the interviews that really stood out to me and which ones would hold up? Which would still be of interest today that wouldn't have become dated because they were heavily news-oriented? But there are some through-lines in these interviews, one of which is there are people who said things in these conversations that I have not heard them say elsewhere. They're something revelatory about themselves as a person and I felt like I really got to know them in a way that I hadn't before. Val>> So among the final twenty-one who made it, you've got Steve Allen, Milton Berle, Ken Burns, Michael Caine, Jimmy Carter, Devine, George Foreman, Steve Martin, Carl Reiner, these amazing people. Anyone stand out and particularly surprise you when they walked in the studio? Larry Mantle>> Well, yeah, Devine, who was one of the oldest interviews that's in here. That goes back, I think, to the second year of the show. Here's this guy who's a cult film figure known for dressing in drag and being this over-the-top kind of character from John Waters' early films. I expected this flamboyant, huge personality, but the man who showed up was just sort of an ordinary looking bald guy, not quite middle aged. Val>> You'd never pick him out on the street? Larry Mantle>> No, you wouldn't. He said, "Hi, I'm here for the interview." Very soft-spoken kind of a guy and total opposite to his screen persona and then went on from there to just talking very matter-of-factly about playing one of the most outrageous characters to ever be continuously featured in a series of American films, albeit very small ones. Val>> What was Milton Berle like? Larry Mantle>> Berle was hilarious. He's a guy who was just funny constantly. I was a little concerned because people that I knew who knew Berle had said to realize that he can be a little testy and a little bit moody. He's going to have a long drive out to Pasadena, so we just want to warn you. Well, he was great. As a fellow cigar smoker, he and I started talking about cigars and we hit it off just wonderfully. In fact, he started talking about what his mother was like and how domineering she had been in his career, how that had affected his marriages along the course. He started talking about very personal things during the course of our conversation and I found him to be just a truly charming guy. It was so clear how he could not set aside his performing. His performing was his life. He started at age five as the Buster Brown boy and he wasn't going to retire and, of course, he never did. Val>> Now the diversity of people you've interviewed is huge. George Foreman, another interesting fellow. Larry Mantle>> Well, George Foreman is not someone you think of that would be, you know, right in the wheelhouse for public radio listeners, for example. What was great about George Foreman was that his story was all about personal transformation. Here's a guy who grows up on the tough streets of Houston. By his own admission, he was just a punk, always getting in fights and was a bully. Then he goes off as a boxer to the Olympics, wins the Gold Medal as an amateur, undertakes a professional career, becomes a kind of villain coming out of his Rumble in the Jungle with Muhammad Ali, only to turn his life yet around again to become a figure who's beloved by people across the country, not to mention a multimillionaire from his grill. What I loved about Foreman is that he was able to put into words all these different steps of the ups and downs and personal transformation and he uses that as a very inspirational story, particularly for young people. I love those kinds of stories when guests are able to come in and tell you that here's who I was and here's who I am today. Sting does this in the book. He tells great stories about his personal changes in his life and in his career. I'm very attracted to that kind of story. Val>> I asked Larry, whose program is live every morning, what his worst interview experience ever was. He told me about the time he interviewed a Nobel Prize-winning scientist from Caltech. He thought he had prepared. Larry Mantle>> I asked my first couple of questions and I couldn't begin to understand his answers. I mean, it's not unusual for me to have a little trouble and, you know, have to ask a follow-up, I'm not sure I get you. That happens all the time. In this case, I couldn't even get a toehold into what he was talking about. I just sat there, I'm sure, with this befuddled look on my face, undoubtedly perspiring heavily, turning red. It was the longest half hour in my mind. Val>> What did you do? Just let him talk? Larry Mantle>> You know, I blocked that out. We finished the interview and I couldn't find it on tape. I wonder why. It's somewhere lost. But that is by far the worst interview I've ever done and hopefully will never be repeated. Val>> Well, Larry, thank you for capturing the best of AirTalk for twenty years, and here's to another twenty. We'll look forward to the sequel. Larry Mantle>> Val, thanks so much. It's great to see you. Val>> And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. For everyone at Life and Times, thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Val>> Next time on Life and Times -- Traffic in Orange County can be terrible, but should we pave paradise to make it better? >> So the question becomes, is it possible to protect open space forever in Orange County? According to the TCA, no. When you set aside something to protect it, you're just setting it aside to wait to put a toll road down the middle of it. >> If we do nothing, Interstate 5 will turn into a parking lot. Val>> That's next time on Life and Times. Sponsored in part by:  | |
|
Home | Features | Arts | Health/Science | OC Edition | L&T Blog | Archives | About Us | Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use |