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Life & Times Transcript
1/15/07 Coverage of Town Hall Los Angeles speakers on Life and Times is made possible by a grant from the Boeing Company. Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times -- Did a firehouse prank lead to the resignation of Los Angeles's fire chief or was it a history of discrimination? Captain Jerry Thomas>> We've had women injured. We've had black men, you know, dehumanized in terms of verbal abuse. You know, we've had people called names with impunity in terms of the "N" word. Val Zavala>> And then, the forgotten figures in American history and the unlikely researcher who brought them to life. These stories and more next on tonight's Life and Times. Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Val Zavala>> It all started as a fire station prank and it's blown up into a racial discrimination lawsuit, public outcry, political feuding and the resignation of a fire chief. It has also put a spotlight on hazing practices inside the Los Angeles Fire Department. Sam Louie takes a look at the tumultuous event that all started with a can of dog food. Sam Louie>> Los Angeles city fire officials have been trying to quench the flames of a political firestorm embroiling the department. The City Council approved a $2.7 million dollar settlement for firefighter, Tennie Pierce. It all started two years ago when Pierce's colleagues served dog food in his spaghetti. They considered it a prank, but Pierce sued the city claiming it was racism. Tennie Pierce>> "This is wrong and if four black firemen did it to a white fireman, I would stand up for the white fireman and say it's wrong because that's the kind of person I am." Sam Louie>> Shortly after the approved settlement, these pictures were posted on KFI's radio website. They showed Tennie Pierce also participating in similar pranks and hazing rituals more than ten years ago. The pictures influenced Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa to promptly veto the settlement. Some members of the City Council tried to overturn the mayor's veto, but failed. Councilman Greig Smith, who represents the San Fernando Valley, was among the nine who voted to throw out the settlement. Councilman Greig Smith>> When I saw the pictures, I was livid, livid as to the nature of the pictures, which changed for me the entire basis of the case and it was that Mr. Pierce was really the instigator of the things that he was claiming he was a victim of. Sam Louie>> Councilman Smith says he did not consider the dog food prank enough to constitute racism, but he's in no way defending the firefighters. Councilman Greig Smith>> We have to get the message out there that it's not acceptable behavior anymore and we're not going to stand for it and there will be repercussions if anybody participates in it. Sam Louie>> The firefighters in question, including two captains, were suspended for a month without pay. Pierce plans to take his case to court. In the meantime, the incident casts a spotlight on the issue of bias and discrimination in the LAFD. Tennie Pierce>> "And the city did not step up. They didn't step up. Bring in the advocates and investigate. We wouldn't be here today. We would not be here today if the advocates would have came in. They turned the advocates away." Sam Louie>> Three days after Pierce's appearance before the City Council, Fire Chief William Bamattre announced his resignation. William Bamattre>> "I have become the focus of the debate and that is to the detriment of the LAFD. I will not allow that to continue." Sam Louie>> Some of his close colleagues were in shock that the chief stepped down after eleven years at the top. Tim Manning>> I'm disappointed that it has happened. Again, I think Chief Bamattre was a great fire chief and has taken us a great distance. Sam Louie>> Assistant Chief, Tim Manning, served as Chief of Staff during part of Bamattre's term. Tim Manning>> He developed a five-year plan and nearly doubled the amount of ambulances that we have serving the community. Captain Jerry Thomas>> "But back at the fire station, that's where we have the problem." Sam Louie>> But others are quick to voice their opposition. Captain Jerry Thomas, in a telephone interview to a radio show, denounced what he considers a department deeply entrenched in racism and sexism. Captain Jerry Thomas>> "We've had some really egregious things that happened to people in this job. They've really been injured. We're talking about physically, psychologically, emotionally." Sam Louie>> Captain Thomas joined the department thirty-one years ago and rose through the ranks. During his career, he says he's seen his fair share of discrimination cases crop up even after the city instituted a zero tolerance policy. Captain Jerry Thomas>> We've had zero tolerance in existence for ten years, but that didn't stop the hazing and discrimination, you know, and the misogynistic attitude about women, you know, defecating in female showers and urinating in female mouthwashes. Sam Louie>> The Los Angeles Fire Department is fifty percent white, almost a third Latino, twelve percent black, and just under three percent women. Captain Jerry Thomas>> We've had women injured. We've had black men, you know, dehumanized in terms of verbal abuse. You know, we've had people called names with impunity in terms of the "N" word. Niggers, to be more specific, and chief officers covering it up. "This is when I made Captain. Some of my peers gave me this in appreciation." Sam Louie>> But even as a fire captain, he was not immune from discrimination. Several years ago, he filed a lawsuit against the city for defamation of character. Specifically, he says there was false information put into his performance review. Captain Jerry Thomas>> I felt betrayed because of my work ethic. I've always gotten excellent evaluations. I take pride in how I handle my people. Sam Louie>> Thomas says that his superiors did not look into his complaint. He eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed amount of money. Captain Jerry Thomas>> We have cases and cases after cases of chief officers turning a blind eye because they don't want to deal with the problems of the fire department. Sam Louie>> The problems were outlined in a recent city audit which found that more than eighty percent of those surveyed reported being harassed or being aware of harassment. However, critics consider the survey unreliable. Less than a quarter of all minorities and women in the fire department responded. One of the critics is John McDuffie. He's with the United Firefighters of Los Angeles, the union that represents the city's fire department. John McDuffie>> If you look at it, a very small percentage of women and a very small percentage of minorities responded to that survey. So to say that there is a problem in the fire department, yeah. We have problems that we need to overcome just like any other organization, but to label it as rampant is just incorrect and the audit did not reflect what the fire department really looks like. Sam Louie>> He disputes that there is a culture of prejudice, but McDuffie acknowledges that, out of a total of thirty-six hundred firefighters, there are going to be a few who get out of line. John McDuffie>> What you see are occasions of racial insensitivity just like you'd see in any other organization. It just so happens because we have the public trust that, when we occasionally make mistakes, those mistakes become public and people feel as though it might be rampant. Sam Louie>> To help steer the department back on course, Assistant Fire Chief Douglas Barry was appointed by the mayor to take over as Interim Chief. Barry is the first African American to run the city's fire department. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa>> "The leadership will help set a new tone to extinguish the incendiary practices of hazing and harassment that has plagued the department for some time." Sam Louie>> McDuffie feels the new chief could go a long way in restoring the department's reputation. John McDuffie>> We have a grand opportunity to make the correct changes or make changes that are going to benefit not only the members of the fire department, but the citizens of Los Angeles. Sam Louie>> Bamattre announced that his last day will be December 31 and, after three decades with the city, leaving under such difficult circumstances was painful. William Bamattre>> "I want to thank all the firefighters and my family. Thank you." Sam Louie>> This whole episode has been difficult for the department, city officials and the public. But in the end, it could be a defining moment for the department leading to real reform. Councilman Greig Smith>> It's an ugly chapter, I think, for Los Angeles, but in the long run, things will come out better and what's going to come out better is we're going to put a whole new system in play that's going to resolve these issues and stop it. Sam Louie>> I'm Sam Louie for Life and Times. Val Zavala>> So what do you think of the firefighter controversy? We'd love to hear your opinion and you can post it on our Blog. Just go to kcet.org and click on the Life and Times Blog. Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times". Val Zavala>> Forty-six million Americans do not have health insurance. That's sixteen percent of our population. And some people say that health care will be a major issue in the 2008 presidential election. That would be just fine with Tommy Thompson. He's thinking of running for president. Thompson is the former Secretary of Health and Human Services under Bush, a former Governor of Wisconsin and a Republican. He's currently working in the private sector as a health care policy consultant. I asked him what he would do to fix America's health care system. Tommy Thompson>> The first thing we have to do is understand it. Understand it, then you're a long way towards solving it. To understand it, I always tell people that you would never really put together a health care system like we have today. Val Zavala>> No. You meaning starting from scratch? No way. Tommy Thompson>> So let's look at it. It's got really a great deal of problems. Ninety-three percent of two trillion dollars, sixteen percent of our GDP, goes to wait for you to get sick. Then we pay lots of money to get you well. Less than seven percent of the money is used to keep you well in the first place. Now nobody in their right mind would set up a system like that. So the number one fix is to change this system from a curative system, waiting for people to get sick and then cure them, to a wellness system, keeping people well in the first place. It's safe money. It improves your quality of health. I always tell people that, if you improve your quality of health, you'll improve your quality of life. Val Zavala>> That makes total sense, but how do you unlock the grip that insurance companies, drug companies, the medical profession have on our political system? They're vested in the way it is now and those people, at least, are winning. Patients are not. But how do you change something fundamentally? Tommy Thompson>> You change something fundamentally by first through programs like you're doing, programs that are put out by the CDC, programs that are put out through our medical schools. Those people in the medical schools really haven't done a good enough job talking about chronic illnesses, about wellness and about managing diseases. Insurance companies have got a vested interest in the current system, but the truth of the matter is, they recognize that it's starting to collapse. The whole health care system is on the verge of collapsing unless we do something about it. I'm not going to be one of those individuals that's going to stand around and say, "I told you so". I'm out speaking like I am today here in Los Angeles to groups trying to get them motivated on a bipartisan basis to do something about the health care system right now because I sincerely believe it's worth saving. We also have to get information out to the consumer because the consumer is not very well educated about himself or herself, about their bodies or how to take care of themselves. Why is tobacco smoking still such a bad thing for people to do? Why diabetes? It just drains the medical treasury and there's ways to deal with it. It's especially a huge problem for minorities. The third thing is, let's face it, we're just all too fat in America. I know when you wake up in the morning and say, "Chunky is good, but slim is better", and we have to get that message out and we can do it. Val Zavala>> You coined a phrase of "medical diplomacy". What do you mean? What is medical diplomacy? Tommy Thompson>> Medical diplomacy is a way that I believe we can do our foreign policy much better. When I travel the world and talk to individuals all over the world, especially in developing countries, it's amazing. The common denominator that I always get back from people is how do we improve our health? How do we improve it, especially with mothers and children? I think if we're ever going to win this war on terror, I think it's going to be through medical diplomacy. A good example is, before the tsunami in Indonesia, there was a poll done in Indonesia and -- Val Zavala>> -- which is predominantly Muslim. Tommy Thompson>> Predominantly Muslim. It's the largest Muslim country in the world. It came back about seventy-five percent of polls on the United States were about twenty-five percent were in favor. Then the tsunami came and we sent what was called one of our big floating medical ships, Project Mercy, and we had volunteer help and stayed there for several weeks. The day it left, thousands of people from Indonesia came down to the shore to wave goodbye and to say thank you. About three weeks later, the same pollster did a poll in Indonesia and it came back just the opposite. Seventy-five percent were favorably disposed to the United States. And still today, people in Indonesia, because of the tsunami, because of the outpouring of generosity and our medical help and support from the United States, came back much more favorably disposed to our country. That's why I am absolutely certain that medical diplomacy is a way to really start changing peoples' attitudes about Americans and America. Val Zavala>> We know you're exploring the possibility of running for president. If that ambition actually comes to fruition, what would be the first thing you would do to fix our health care? What would that be? The first step you would take? Tommy Thompson>> The first bill I would introduce would be a bill on information technology, setting up a program so that we would have electronic medical records, we would do "e-prescribing", and we would also go paperless. We would set up a system whereby the fraud and abuse money that comes in would be used to transform health care in America. Val Zavala>> This is for like all people on Medicare? Tommy Thompson>> On Medicare, on Medi-Cal and everybody else across the gamut. Val Zavala>> Really? Tommy Thompson>> Absolutely. There are seven steps that I've got to actually improve and make the health care system in America affordable, accessible and easily understood. It's a holistic approach. We're going to change the system, as I've already talked to you about, going into prevention rather than a curative system. We're going to start managing diseases, making sure people get an opportunity. We're going to require health insurance in America just like we do automobile insurance and liability insurance. Val Zavala>> Employer-provided? Tommy Thompson>> Well, you cannot require the employer to provide it. I'm talking about a subsidy from the state government and the federal government and the employers to be able to allow for it. It's just a mistake that forty-six Americans are without health insurance because who pays for it? You do. I do. So let's change it so that, instead of having it a drag on the economy, let's stimulate the economy and make health care work and let individuals who are uninsured be able to get insurance because where does the uninsured go for their health care? To emergency wards. What's the most expensive health care? Emergency wards. Does that make any sense at all? So it's common sense ideas like that that I would actually fix and transform health care in America. Val Zavala>> Well, Tommy Thompson, best of luck to you and thank you so much for your time. Tommy Thompson>> Well, thank you. It's a pleasure being interviewed by you and thank you very much for the kind work you do. Val Zavala>> Tommy Thompson was a guest of Town Hall Los Angeles. If you'd like information on upcoming speakers, you can go to their website at townhall-la.org. Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address: Life and Times 4401 Sunset Blvd. Los Angeles, California 90027 You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org. Val Zavala>> He's known as an NBA superstar, but did you know that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was also an author? He wrote the book, "Black Profiles in Courage", and it all started when he was helping his son with a project on African-Americans and discovered there was a dirth of information. We thought we'd open up the Life and Times Vault where Victor Abalos spoke with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about these missing pieces of American history. Victor Abalos>> One example Kareem cited is this painting of the Battle of Bunker Hill shown here as it's used in most history books. But the uncropped original is a more revealing portrait, one that includes Peter Salem among the many African-Americans that fought for this country's freedom. [Film Clip] Victor Abalos>> A lot of the figures that you write about are soldiers, men fighting in Revolutionary times through Civil War to World War I. But they're black men fighting for values like freedom which they don't enjoy yet in this country. What can you tell us about that contradiction? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar>> Well, I think by blacks fighting in the military, it really underlined the whole issue of what is this nation about and really put the pressure on people who claimed to believe in the Constitution to actually make it work in real life. To blacks in the military after the Civil War up until like 1916, that was the only real profession that you could have as a black man in this country where you were treated unequal of the whites working at that level. That was really the only place in American society. The American military has really led the way in terms of understanding and making practical an egalitarian society even today as far as like integrating women and other minorities into all aspects of a profession. The military has led the way. Victor Abalos>> Joseph Cinque was captured by slave traders in Africa in 1839. Cinque led a mutiny and ordered the ship back to Africa, but ended up in New York. Cinque was jailed for murder. His trial became an abolitionist cause nationwide. In 1841, the United States Supreme Court ruled Cinque was not guilty, the first time Africans were deemed by federal law to have the right to revolt, to be free. Joseph Cinque eventually returned to Africa. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar>> I think Cinque's story is so typical of what every black person feels when they are exposed to what happened to our race in being stolen from Africa and brought to America to serve financially to the people in the south as slaves. The whole idea that your life was taken from you in such a way that it is the most demeaning and it's a demeaning slow death. You don't just die. You're not kidnapped and killed. You're kidnapped and worked to death so that other people can be wealthy. The attempt to do that to Cinque just resonates within every black American. They see that as their ancestors' plight and they see that as a common experience. Victor Abalos>> There is a lot of passion in the way you tell these stories, but the one thing that's missing is anger. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar>> I don't think that there's anything to be angry about because, as bad as it was in America for American blacks, America tried to fix it. Thomas Jefferson, the man who epitomizes the whole dichotomy of how Americans dealt with this issue, wanted slavery to end. He thought it morally corrupted the people who practiced it. He stated that and he tried to get the Continental Congress to eliminate slavery. At the same time, he was a slave owner because financially it was how he had to compete. It was a very complex issue, but he dealt with it straight up and wrestled with it. It was an issue for him his whole life. James Monroe bought the land of Liberia without any real authority just because he felt that there should be some apparatus in place for free black slaves to return to Africa because it was right. The whole emphasis on those Americans who acted correctly with regard to the issue of slavery really doesn't get any focus either from our history books or the popular culture, again, because it's going to offend southerners. I think that's silly. I mean, there were a lot of heroic things done in and around those issues. I found out things about people that I would have never believed felt the right way on those issues. I mean, it's amazing some of the things I found out. Victor Abalos>> In doing research for the book, what stories surprised you? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar>> Well, take the personality of Wild Bill Hickok. Most people know him as a gunfighter, a gambler, a womanizer and a drunk. He was all those things, but it was really in the last couple years of his life as he deteriorated. As a boy on his farm in Illinois, his family ran a station on the underground railroad. Hundreds of black people escaped to freedom using the Hickok farm as a transit point. We don't know anything about that. The reason that he learned how to shoot and everything he had to do, he wanted to help his dad. People would come and try to recapture the runaways and sell them back into slavery -- it was very lucrative -- so his dad had to go around armed. His son, naturally wanting to help his dad, had to learn about firearms, etc. That's why he got into this whole lifestyle. That's why his whole life, he always looked at southerners with suspicion. I mean, there was a reason for it. An incredible story, one that we know nothing about. One of the runaways stayed at the Hickok farm because she felt so highly about the Hickok family. She stayed at the Hickok farm through the Civil War and helped Bill's mother, who was infirm. That's how much she appreciated what she did. Then she eventually returned to her family in Alabama a year or two after the Civil War ended. But there are incredible stories of camaraderie in Americans helping the downtrodden. You know, white Americans helping slaves. There was no financial reward in it. The only reward they got was doing the right thing. There's this incredibly huge amount of events there that nobody's ever dealt with this. Not in our history books, not in the popular culture. I mean, there's a whole, huge amount of things that we need to expose with regard to this subject. Val Zavala>> The book, again, is "Black Profiles in Courage" by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. For everyone at Life and Times, thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Sponsored in part by:  | |
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