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Life & Times Transcript
5/24/07 Coverage of Town Hall Los Angeles speakers on Life and Times is made possible by a grant from the Boeing Company. Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times -- She pays for the photos. He doesn't, but he posts them on his blog. Is that stealing? Brandy Navarre>> If People Magazine wants to use our images, they have to pay for them, so why shouldn't someone on a website? Mario Lavandeira>> I mean, what it really boils down to is that I really don't think what I'm doing is wrong. Call me stupid, call me naïve, but I don't. Val Zavala>> And then, he's back and he's taking the Black Pearl to the ends of the earth, but will our critics enjoy the ride? It's all straight ahead on tonight's Life and Times. Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Val Zavala>> You know those celebrity photographs we love to gawk at in magazines and now on websites? Well, you may not realize that, behind those famous faces, a legal battle is brewing over who owns the photographs. The person who took them, the person who paid for them, or the person who posted them. As Hena Cuevas tells us, a showdown is coming in what some people have called the "wild west of the web". Hena Cuevas>> Joel Ginsberg's job requires a lot of waiting. Joel Ginsberg>> It's countless hours and a lot of effort and a lot of money and a lot of energy. Hena Cuevas>> That's because Ginsberg is a celebrity photographer, a member of the much-maligned paparazzi. Today they're on the hunt for a female celebrity shopping at this boutique. A quick phone call and a fast run down an alley gets him nothing. Joel Ginsberg>> You could sit here every single day, burn your gasoline up with the price it is, looking for, you know, stories and get nothing. So you can go bankrupt or you could have a very good year. Hena Cuevas>> When he does get that coveted photograph, he sells it to the X17 Photo Agency, the largest in Los Angeles. Brandy Navarre is the owner. Brandy Navarre>> This is what's interesting to people today, following celebrities' lives whether they're shopping at the grocery story or going to the doctor's office. There is a market for these images, a huge market. Hena Cuevas>> But she says she's having a problem with the way the images she sells are being used online. Brandy Navarre>> People, when posting images on their own website, should know who the images have come from and should make sure that they buy their license fee images or have the agreement from the copyright holders to use the images. Hena Cuevas>> All over the internet, there are thousands of celebrity gossip blogs or personal web logs. They provide photographs with commentary on the comings and goings of singer Brittany Spears or Justin Timberlake, for example. But Navarre says that her photographs are copyrighted and can't be used without permission. Brandy Navarre>> If you have content that is important, that is the crux of your business and you allow people to steal it, you don't have a business anymore. So we have to protect our content. "I sent an extra email on that one. I sent my usual cease and desist." Hena Cuevas>> So her company is suing who she calls the biggest offender, PerezHilton.com, the largest of the celebrity gossip blogs. The amount? Seventeen million dollars. Brandy Navarre>> "What's funny is that yesterday we were saying, "I can't believe he hasn't stolen the Brittany yet." You just witnessed a phone call from a photo editor at a magazine saying, "I can't believe he just took those images from you." Now these are images that we would have wanted to sell for a lot of money to that magazine. They're not going to pay as much because they've just seen them on Perez. Hena Cuevas>> Do you know how the images are being taken? Brandy Navarre>> That's the million dollar question. We don't know how Perez gets these images exactly. Hena Cuevas>> PerezHilton.com is also being sued by five other celebrity photo agencies, including Splash and Flynet. They're asking for seven million dollars. PerezHilton.com is run by Mario Lavandeira, or Perez Hilton, as he prefers to be called. Mario Lavandeira>> If this one particular photo agency is really perceiving a problem out there, suing me really isn't going to solve that one problem because there's hundreds, I would venture to say thousands, of gossip blogs out there doing the same thing. Hena Cuevas>> He says that his blog is just a place where he gives his opinions on his favorite subject: celebrities, many of whom he's had a chance to meet. Mario Lavandeira>> Anyone could sign up under MySpace and start a blog or a blog spot or anything and, you know, click a few buttons and customize your template and, within five minutes, you're communicating online with the rest of the world. There's something really creative and empowering and inspiring about that. Hena Cuevas>> Blogs first began as online scrapbooks, places to post thoughts, comments and photographs to share with friends. But Navarre says that something changed along the way. Brandy Navarre>> Then we kind of slowly started noticing that, wow, there are lots of ads on these sites. This seems to be shifting a little bit. These web logs are no longer just personal diaries. These are money-making machines. Hena Cuevas>> On the site blogads.com, blogs are listed by category. It shows how many hits they get per week. This way, advertisers can choose where they want to be posted. Hilton is number one in the gossip section with more than five million hits a day and top price ads can sell for nine thousand dollars per week. It fluctuates, but just in ads alone, Hilton can make more than twenty thousand dollars per week. Mario Lavandeira>> I don't do it for the money. I do it because it's fun, because I get to entertain people, because I get to inform people, and no matter how many try to dismiss what I do, I know that many others, almost four million a day, really enjoy it and that gives what I do meaning. Brandy Navarre>> If People Magazine want to use our images, they have to pay for them. Why shouldn't someone on a website? Even if people.com wants to use our images, they have to pay for them. So why should people.com pay for our images and not PerezHilton.com? Hena Cuevas>> So what does the law say about copyrighted images on the web? David Nimmer>> Copyright law is the way that our government protects authors, very broadly defined, and the internet poses a huge problem to copyright law. Hena Cuevas>> David Nimmer is the author of "Nimmer on Copyright", an eleven-volume treatise. He says that it would be unfair to dismiss the lawsuit as a fight between a celebrity stalker and a gossip columnist. David Nimmer>> There's plenty of room within copyright law to craft an argument on behalf of each party. Hena Cuevas>> But he says that the case could affect bloggers who argue that they can use materials under the Rule of Fair Use. David Nimmer>> Because that is such a broad test, the law is very murky and no one can state for certain which side is going to prevail in this case. Hena Cuevas>> So is there a way perhaps to control where these images or other copyrighted works might end up on the internet? Well, there are certain software programs that allow users to trace where an image, for example, may have ended up. However, policing like this is expensive and, according to Navarre, very unfair to people like her. Brandy Navarre>> There needs to be some rules established and people need to understand that the internet is not different legally from, you know, television, magazines, newspapers or any other form of medium. They need to follow the same rules that publishers in any of those other mediums would follow. Mario Lavandeira>> I mean, what it really boils down to is that I really don't think what I'm doing is wrong. Call me or stupid or call me naïve, but I don't. If I did, then I wouldn't be doing it. It's really that simple. Hena Cuevas>> Hilton argues that having the photographs on his site actually helps the agency sell them. Mario Lavandeira>> I know because I know people at the magazines. I know people at television shows. They email me, "Hey, where did you get that picture?" A lot of times, I don't know because, where all these bloggers find images, they never credit. They never say, "Oh, this is from this photo agency." Brandy Navarre>> That still devalues the images in terms of what we're able to charge to the magazines who want those images to appear first in their magazines and not on these websites who are kind of breaking their story. Hena Cuevas>> Navarre admits that the exposure in the blogs was helpful at first and X17 used to allow the free use of photographs in exchange for a credit and a link back to their site, but not anymore. They now have their own blog and a photo subscription service at a reduced rate. So far, three blogs have signed up. Brandy Navarre>> We're all just kind of testing the waters of this new medium and trying to navigate through it. That's why we feel that what we're doing is an important step in, you know, establishing the boundaries in this kind of wild west of the internet. Mario Lavandeira>> I feel confident that a jury of my peers will side with me, but if they don't, I will change my behavior accordingly because I don't want to break the law. I don't think I'm breaking the law. Obviously, they do. I mean, it's as simple as that. Hena Cuevas>> Both sides are determined to go to court, one battling for the right of ownership, the other for the right to free speech. I'm Hena Cuevas for Life and Times. Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times". Val Zavala>> The J. Paul Getty Trust has a new president. He is Jim Wood and he's got a big job. He takes over the helm of the world's richest art institution after two years of harsh publicity. The trouble started in 2006 when then CEO, Barry Munitz, was investigated by the Los Angeles Times for lavish spending of Getty funds on travel, gifts and perks. No illegalities were found, but Munitz resigned under a cloud and the office of the State Attorney General continues to monitor Getty spending. Then it was found that more than twenty-five Italian antiquities acquired by the Getty had been illegally exported or looted from archaeological sites. Last fall, the museum agreed to return them. It was clear that the Getty needed new leadership. In December 2006, the Board hired James Wood, a renowned art historian with a sterling reputation. For twenty-four years, Wood directed the prestigious Art Institute of Chicago. I talked with him when he was a speaker at Town Hall Los Angeles. Jim Wood, it's very nice to have you in Los Angeles and a lot of people say you are the right man for the Getty right now because it has been through a couple of very, very tough years. How do you intend to restore the integrity of the Getty? James Wood>> Well, the first thing is to listen long and hard to people who love the Getty and people who have criticized the Getty. I'm well into that and I think that's really the test. I mean, we are not going to be judged ultimately by what we say, but what we do. That's the way we should be judged and I'm confident that that organization, with all of its extraordinary different parts, can do things that we'll be proud of and that the public will be proud of. Val Zavala>> Do you think you're at an advantage being an out-of-towner because, you know, you don't have a lot of friends and people to assuage? You can listen to that criticism, in a sense, with more open ears? James Wood>> Maybe. I mean, I hadn't quite thought of it that way. I suppose I have no preconceptions. It's still pretty mysterious to me the way Los Angeles works and how the Getty can most effectively relate to it. Val Zavala>> That's a mystery to most of us who have been here for twenty years (laughter). James Wood>> Well, I'm beginning to sense, in a way, that's nice because art is a mystery, a mystery that you're constantly trying to solve. But when you think you've solved it, then either it's a bad work of art or you've become arrogant. The one thing the Getty, you know, does not need to be is arrogant. So I think maybe a little ignorance on my part at this moment in Los Angeles is a good thing. Val Zavala>> There are still some pending issues, especially with the works of art that had to be returned and I think there are still some charges against the former curator. Are there actual policy changes that the Getty has put in place to prevent suspect works of art from landing in your collections? James Wood>> Yes. This was really ironically begun by Marion True, the curator that has now been charged by Italy. We have now instituted a policy on our acquisitions of antiquities that is extremely strict. It's one of the strictest among American museums. I think it's the right thing for us to do. It will make it more difficult for us to add things in the future, but not impossible. Val Zavala>> The Getty does have this reputation, among some at least, for being an elite institution. Now you can say that you want to connect with the city and be more accessible, but how does that translate into real concrete policies or practices? James Wood>> Well, the first thing I would stress is the problem is not being elite. The problem is, are we making people aware of where we are and, most importantly, that they're welcome? What you want to be, it seems to me, no matter who you are or what your background is, you want to be invited to the best party. You want to feel that you are welcome where the most extraordinary works of art can be experienced. The other advantage we have and really a responsibility is that we have the means to not only be sure that people throughout the city and well beyond the city are aware we're there and, hopefully, aware that they're welcome to come, but actually make it possible. I mean, we provide buses for thousands and thousands of school kids, particularly from districts that wouldn't be able to do that. Val Zavala>> You're a world-renowned art expert and internationally known. What kind of mark would you like to make on the Getty artistically in terms of your collection or what direction it goes? James Wood>> Well, I mean, two crucial areas. How we collect in the future. There are not restrictions on what we collect, but there is a strong tradition. We began with what J. Paul Getty himself had collected. We've then gone beyond that in areas like photography and really built in that particular media one of the great, great collections of the world. The other thing is how we present it. I mean, the Getty will never be a huge, huge museum. It's just too late in the day, regardless of how much your resources are. My goal is that the Getty will be a place where you come and, let's say in contrast to the Metropolitan Museum, you know, our great mother museum, there will be less to see, but it will be presented so handsomely, so enticingly, so excitingly, that one will spend more time looking at less. I mean, any great work of art deserves to be looked at long and hard, struggled with. It's like a good meal. You know, you don't want to race through it. The danger, of course, with huge museums is that one is intimidated by the sheer size and you spend more time walking between than actually stopping and looking and digesting. You could call it making the most of a limitation. I think it's actually making the most of a real opportunity. Val Zavala>> Now as you know, Los Angeles is one of the most diverse cultures on the planet, incredible disparities economically. Take the average person could be a Latino family earning maybe thirty or forty thousand a year if they're lucky. How do you convince them that they should bring their children to the Getty because it has something to say to them or do for them? James Wood>> I mean, I can only speak as a parent, but what parent does not want their children to have the opportunity to be exposed to something as recognized as being important and of very high quality? Or maybe it's as simple as curiosity. We have the great advantage of being up on a hill. You can see us from a great distance. What's it like up there? What would it be like to actually experience that? Many people come, I think, to get an idea of what Los Angeles would look like from the Getty and then maybe secondarily realize, "My gosh, there are works of art here." You're constantly shifting back and forth between works of art in controlled settings and views out on the broader landscape of the city, which is exactly the kind of thing that happens if you go to a small village in the mountains, you know, a great Italian hill town or I'm sure there are the equivalents right here. I think these are experiences of a range of pleasures that are accessible to anyone. You may start with the view and end up with the painting. Some people might do it the other way around. Val Zavala>> Something for everyone. James Wood>> I certainly hope so. Val Zavala>> Well, Jim Wood, thank you so much for being here and we really look forward to the impact you're going to make on our community. James Wood>> Well, thank you so much. Val Zavala>> James Wood was a guest speaker at a luncheon for Town Hall Los Angeles. If you'd like more information on future events, you can go to their website at townhall-la.org. Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address: Life and Times 4401 Sunset Blvd. Los Angeles, California 90027 You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org. Larry Mantle>> Welcome to FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC. Well, to no one's surprise, we have yet another summer sequel this week. "Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End" returns Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow. Geoffrey Rush, Keira Knightley and Orlando Bloom round out the cast. [Film Clip] Larry Mantle>> I'm joined this week by critics Andy Klein of City Beat and Claudia Puig of USA Today. Claudia, what did you think of the latest "Pirates of the Caribbean"? Claudia Puig>> Oh, where do I start (laughter)? The pirate ship has run aground. Johnny Depp is only in half the movie and really the only reason to see the pirate movies is for Johnny Depp, the Captain Jack Sparrow character. He's fine, but it is the most confusing, convoluted, just leaden movie, and it goes on for nearly three hours. They tack on something at the very end which is very key, but they're pretty much making you sit through the entire credits. They bring in extraneous characters that are not particularly interesting. It's just a mess. It's too bad. Even Keith Richards, whose appearance as Captain Jack Sparrow's father, which was much anticipated, falls flat. Larry Mantle>> Andy, what did you think? Andy Klein>> Well, I'll defend Keith Richards' performance, which was about the only three minutes in the film that I enjoyed. This is really much less of a comedy than the second one, whereas the second one I think went even funnier and broader than the first. This is all action and plot and more supernatural rules that you can't possibly keep track of. It is so complicated and it wasn't just me. I checked with other people coming out of the screening. Nobody had a clue who was on what side and why and, you know, do you want to kill Davey Jones' heart or not? It was just all bloated. I love Johnny Depp to death, but I've got to say that even he was not enough for me in this. There are a few other funny moments of performance from some people, but mostly this is just the most bloated, tiring -- it's as though the director is shouting at you from the screen, "Aren't we having a good time? Isn't this fun?" to cover up the fact that there's nothing fun going on. Larry Mantle>> Next up is the psychological thriller, "Bug". It's directed by the "Exorcist" William Friedkin. Ashley Judd stars. [Film Clip] Larry Mantle>> "Bug", Andy? Andy Klein>> Well, no one will deny that director William Friedkin knows how to push your buttons and do things scary and crank up all this horrifying stuff onscreen. But in "Bug", I just don't see the point to it. Ashley Judd plays a young woman -- I guess, not so young anymore -- whose abusive husband has just gotten out of jail and she's afraid he's going to come back. She takes in this sort of shy, awkward drifter who turns out to be completely psycho and is convinced that the CIA has planted bugs under his skin and he'd better go get a nail and dig them out and stuff like that. Basically, the whole arc of the film is her catching his psychosis and, when that happens, it seems to happen off-screen. The transition is not compelling or believable and, on top of that, the whole film is just so painfully unpleasant. Unpleasant isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I didn't see the redeeming feature. Larry Mantle>> What did you think, Claudia? Claudia Puig>> I agree. It's incredibly unsettling, but not in a good way. It is just unpleasant and it feels very stagy. It was an off-Broadway play and the performances are actually strong performances. It's just for what purpose? Just to rattle you and make you feel uncomfortable? There's some overwrought kind of moments where the lead actor just kind of has a fit on the bed in part of his psychosis. You know, the notion, I guess, of insanity being contagious could have been interesting, but it went so over the top and it was so unpleasant to sit through and then it felt stagy on top of everything else. Larry Mantle>> You know, in the television ads, they make it look as though the bugs are real. So from the film, do they take you inside the psychotic mind? Is that why you're seeing it? Claudia Puig>> Not enough (laughter). You don't go inside his mind and you don't actually see much in the way of bugs, not that you want to (laughter). Larry Mantle>> And finally this week, the French film from writer and director, Luc Besson, "Angel-A". [Film Clip] Larry Mantle>> "Angel-A", Claudia? Claudia Puig>> This is an interesting film. It's a flawed film, but it stars a wonderful actor named Jamel Debbouze who was in this Algerian film called -- I'm maybe mangling this -- "Indigenes". "Days of Glory" is what it was called here. He's a wonderful actor. He's very expressive and he kind of lifts this movie. It's also done with just beautiful cinematography by Thierry Arbogast and it's in black and white. In a way, it's kind of a love letter to Paris, so after seeing "Parijatham" which came out last week -- Larry Mantle>> -- it came out last week, yes. Claudia Puig>> Yes. This might be something. But the plot is kind of a combination of "It's a Wonderful Life" and, well, you've seen this story before. It's a man who kind of redeems himself by saving someone that is about to commit suicide. It's kind of the general point of it. I won't give anything else away. The writing is a little clichéd and formulaic, but it is worth seeing for the beautiful cinematography and also for his performance. Larry Mantle>> What did you think, Andy? Andy Klein>> Yeah, I kind of liked this. I didn't think it was spectacular, but first of all, it does look gorgeous. You know, Paris shot in beautiful black and white. It's also, I think, a love letter to black and white cinematography. I'll be a little more explicit. I don't think I'm giving anything away that's not beyond the first half hour of the film. It is really being played exactly like "It's a Wonderful Life". There's even one or two camera angles that are lifted deliberately as homage where somebody wants to kill themselves because they're deeply in debt and they owe all this money and they see somebody else jump, so they have to go save them. But in this case, instead of a frumpy little Henry Travers who was the actor in "It's a Wonderful Life", it is tall, leggy, supermodel Rie Rasmussen, who was in the Brian De Palma film -- oh, not "Body Double" --"Femme Fatale". So that's a different kind of person to get involved with when you have angels saving you (laughter) and it does go in a very bizarre direction in certain ways where it's a wonderful life if the angel is sort of a hooker with a heart of gold almost. But it is charming and it does achieve a certain kind of fairy tale mystery by the end. Larry Mantle>> Well, thanks for joining us for another FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC joined by critics Andy Klein of City Beat and Claudia Puig of USA Today. Please join us again in two weeks for the next FilmWeek on Life and Times. Val Zavala>> KPCC public radio broadcasts a longer version of FilmWeek on Fridays at eleven a.m. And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. We'll see you next time. Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education. And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg. Sponsored in part by:  | |
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