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Life & Times Transcript

9/6/07

Announcer>> Tonight on Life and Times --

There's a plan to crack down on companies that hire undocumented workers, but what are the consequences?

Luawanna Hallstrom>> The problem is whether this group understands or realizes that this is going to affect every American in a negative way.

Mark Krikorian>> Let's get down to what we're talking about here is people who lied, used fake or stolen social security numbers in order to get jobs.

Announcer>> And then, what was it like to take that "one giant leap for mankind"? NASA releases never before seen footage of the astronauts on the moon.

It's all straight on tonight's Life and Times.

Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Val Zavala>> For years, critics of illegal immigration have been pushing the government to crack down on the employers who hire undocumented workers. Well, now the government is. Any employer who hires a person with a fishy social security number either has to resolve the problem or fire the person. But that has some employers upset. Why is that? Roger Cooper has our story.

Roger Cooper>> California employers who depend on immigrant workers are facing the possibility of a major crackdown that could force them to fire many of their employees. New rules from the Bush administration would require employers to make sure all of their workers' social security numbers match valid numbers. And when there is no match, the employer would have to dismiss the worker or face criminal consequences.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> This is the train wreck. The no-match solution is not a solution. It is a train wreck.

Craig Silvertooth>> They are interested in spreading pain. They think that's the answer to solving our undocumented immigrant problem.

Mark Krikorian>> I mean, let's get down to what we're talking about here is people who lied, used fake or stolen social security numbers in order to get jobs.

Roger Cooper>> A federal judge has put the so-called no-match plan on temporary hold until hearings are held on lawsuits filed by immigrant rights groups and employers. But the Bush administration still hopes to implement the crackdown, which was announced after Congress refused to go along with the president's call for comprehensive immigration reform.

Michael Chertoff>> Time has run out, so now we're going to go back to the old tools and we're going to sharpen them up as best we can.

Roger Cooper>> Homeland Security Chief, Michael Chertoff, says that means employers will now be held accountable for their hiring.

Michael Chertoff>> People who willfully and consciously hire illegals knowing that they're doing it and knowing that they're committing crimes in order to do it, including identity theft, those are the people that are going to be targeted for criminal sanctions.

Roger Cooper>> In the past, social security has sent out no-match letters like this one informing employers that workers' social security numbers didn't match the federal database. Many just threw the letters away. But if the courts allow the new crackdown to proceed, the next letters will order the employer to straighten out the discrepancy within ninety days and, if they can't, the employer would have to fire every no-match worker or face a twelve thousand dollar fine and a felony prosecution.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> It poses a very difficult problem. I've been on several White House calls.

Roger Cooper>> Luawanna Hallstrom is an expert on farm labor and immigration issues who works with agriculture groups like the California Farm Bureau.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> Well, I think you're going to see a mass exodus of the employees that are out there supporting the ag industry, the health industry, the restaurant, food service, hotel industry, construction.

Roger Cooper>> And Hallstrom says that California's massive farm industry could take a direct hit and this region that feeds the nation could face real difficulty harvesting its crops.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> The sad thing about it is that employers, by fear alone, will be forced to let go of their workforce without having any other sources to fill those jobs.

Roger Cooper>> But supporters of the no-match plan say the crackdown is overdue. Mark Krikorian is with the Center for Immigration Studies. He told the NewsHour that immigration enforcement can't just take place at the border alone.

Mark Krikorian>> It also requires making it hard for illegal immigrants to live normal lives and turning the magnet off that attracts them by making it as hard as possible for illegal immigrants to have regular on-the-books jobs. It makes it harder for them to put down roots and imbed themselves in our society and it makes enforcement easier.

Roger Cooper>> Hallstrom also supports enforcement, but she believes comprehensive immigration reform would have been the better way to do it.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> Well, I think you should be against illegal immigration. I think that we need sensible immigration policy. We need to know who's in our country. We need to secure our borders. The problem is that whether this group, this population, understands or realizes that this is going to affect every American in a negative way.

Roger Cooper>> Hallstrom notes that some no-matches are merely the result of clerical mistakes or errors in the federal database and she predicts that some employers will simply fire workers outright to avoid the hassle of straightening out the no-match or of running the risk of prosecution.

Craig Silvertooth with the National Roofing Contractors Association says his industry is among those the rule would hit hard.

Craig Silvertooth>> Just to give you an example of construction, drywallers and roofers according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, thirty percent of our workforce is undocumented. Insulation, thirty percent. So if you have thirty employees, you would lose one-third of your workforce. There's no way that you as a contractor can absorb a loss like that.

Look at agriculture. Seventy to ninety percent of the workers are undocumented, depending on what party of the country you're in and what type of crop. So for a farmer, you know, if they have a hundred employees, a hundred people out in the field, they're still technically a small business and they lose seventy percent overnight?

Roger Cooper>> But the Center for Immigration Studies says employers should avoid making illegal hires in the first place. Krikorian says that they can use the government's online system to check social security numbers.

Mark Krikorian>> The government has a verification program, an online system. My own think tank participates in it. It's voluntary, but that's something that more and more employers need to sign up for so that, at the front end, they can do a better job of making sure they don't end up employing people who are illegal immigrants.

Roger Cooper>> However, Silvertooth says it will take much more than going online to comply with the new rule.

Craig Silvertooth>> What it changes for an individual employer is this. They're now going to have to go out and hire human resources help. They might have to hire attorneys to help them understand and deal with the legal issues that would be associated with it.

We're talking about an industry, in the construction industry at least, where our average firm is a small business. Frequently, the accountant, the bookkeeper, the human resources person, is the owner and frequently their home office is the kitchen.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> And so the employer is going to be left with the responsibility of documenting every phone call, every name, every date, possibly copying screens maybe on computers.

Roger Cooper>> Backers of the no-match rule say at long last the focus would be on the employer.

Mark Krikorian>> So this really puts some teeth in the ban that was passed twenty years ago on employing illegal immigrants, but which has never been really enforced.

Roger Cooper>> But contractors predict there will be a high price to pay.

Craig Silvertooth>> We will put fewer roofs on houses. We'll put fewer roofs on commercial buildings and you're going to see the prices skyrocket. There is absolutely no way that we can deal with this type of regulation and continue to provide the services that the country demands.

Roger Cooper>> In the end, if this no-match rule does go into effect, Hallstrom hopes the fallout will cause the country to reconsider comprehensive immigration reform.

Lauwanna Hallstrom>> And if they can't do that, if they're more comfortable piecing this together -- and I hate to say this because I know how disruptive and how horrible this is going to be for the country -- at least consider the ag jobs, private program for agriculture. Because to me, the greatest loss of national security is not being able to grow and provide a safe and reliable food source within your own borders.

Roger Cooper>> But one thing that's not on the table for now is a legal immigrant worker program and a temporary restraining order is all that keeps the administration from cracking down on employers. In Orange County, I'm Roger Cooper for Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> So what do you think of the tougher hiring rules? We'd love to know your opinion. Just go to kcet.org/lifeandtimes/blog.

Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times".

Val Zavala>> The crisis in the sub-prime mortgage market has caused thousands of Californians to lose their homes. Now you may think foreclosure is just one of those things that happens, but it doesn't have to happen. And if you are facing foreclosure, there are certainly ways to soften the blow.

For some advice, we came to the office of Michael Eisenberg. He's with the Financial Literacy Commission of the American Institute of CPAs and a member of Cal CPA. He says there are definitely some things you should think about if you see you're headed for trouble.

So, Michael, there are thousands of people who are facing the prospect of foreclosure. They're seeing their mortgage rates go up and up and up. What can they do now to maybe head off disaster?

Michael Eisenberg>> I think the first thing to do, Val, is for the homeowner to contact their lender and tell them that they may be facing some sort of a problem.

Val Zavala>> And don't wait until the last minute?

Michael Eisenberg>> Don't for until the last moment. The lenders are much more appreciative if you talk to them up front. If you just miss a payment or you're late, that's not going to bode very well for the homeowner. So that's the first thing to do. If you're having that problem, check in with your lender first.

Val Zavala>> Are they pretty understanding?

Michael Eisenberg>> They have been, they have been. They understand what's going on in this day and age as well, so make sure you get the right person too. You just don't want to talk to any one person. For example, if it's at a bank, you don't want to go in and necessarily just talk to the teller. You want to find out who's in charge of making these kinds of decisions.

Val Zavala>> And take notes and record --

Michael Eisenberg>> -- absolutely. Write everything down, keep good records, make sure you're documenting everything that you talk about and who you're talking with. Also, bring your records to the lender as to why you're having problems right now.

It could be that maybe you just lost your job and it's very difficult for you to make the payments. It could be that you have medical issues and those medical bills are creeping up on you. In those instances, the lenders would be sympathetic.

Val Zavala>> So what if you've done all you can and there's just no avoiding it? You just can't make your payments and you're going, "My God, I'm just going to have to foreclose." You're getting the notices and there seems to be no alternative. How can you sort of soften the blow? What should you do so at least this process is not so harmful?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, there are various techniques that somebody can use. Foreclosure is one technique. That's, of course, when the bank is going to come back and take the property away from you and you're walking away from the house.

There's another way possibly doing what's called the short sale. Short sale is where you sell it either to the bank or to a third party at less than what you owe.

Val Zavala>> So you might owe two hundred fifty thousand and you'd sell it for two hundred?

Michael Eisenberg>> Right.

Val Zavala>> How would that be better than walking away?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, what happens is, at least it's showing as a sale and not necessarily as a foreclosure, which goes against your credit record. So it means your credit is okay because you've actually made the sale and then you have to make the payments to the bank.

Val Zavala>> You still have to make up that fifty thousand.

Michael Eisenberg>> Exactly, exactly. The things you want to be careful of, and consumers need to be aware of, is that, if you go through the foreclosure, there is the possibility of not only losing the property, but also of having tax implications as well.

Val Zavala>> Explain how that can happen.

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, for example, if the bank does take back the house or they're giving you a forgiveness of the debt, the amount that they're forgiving on that debt under IRS regulations is considered debt forgiveness, or income. You're going to have to pay tax on that debt forgiveness.

Val Zavala>> So give us an example. So let's say you have a five hundred thousand dollar mortgage and the bank takes back the house.

Michael Eisenberg>> The bank takes back the house.

Val Zavala>> Sells it?

Michael Eisenberg>> They're going to sell it for, say, four eighty or something of that nature.

Val Zavala>> Okay.

Michael Eisenberg>> So your debt forgiveness is going to be twenty thousand dollars.

Val Zavala>> Oh, so you still owe -- if the bank can't sell it for the full value of the mortgage, you might still owe the bank the difference.

Michael Eisenberg>> Or in addition to that, if you owe the five thousand dollars and the bank's going to take back that house and they're forgiving the fact that you're not having that mortgage, then you're going to have to pay tax on the full five thousand as well.

Val Zavala>> Because that's considered --

Michael Eisenberg>> -- forgiveness of debt, which to the IRS is taxable income.

Val Zavala>> You have to pay taxes on it?

Michael Eisenberg>> You have to pay taxes. The bank will issue a 1099 form to you and send a copy to the taxing authorities, both federal and state, by the way. California is involved as well. Now there are a few ways of softening that blow. For example, if you're really in problems financially and you file for a bankruptcy and the obligation is discharged in bankruptcy, then you won't have the tax obligation.

Val Zavala>> I see.

Michael Eisenberg>> The other way is, if you don't go through the bankruptcy, but you literally are insolvent, meaning you have more debts than you have in assets at that time, then the debt forgiveness will not be taxable to you.

Val Zavala>> But some people will say they go into the bank or their lender with this, you know, hardship story that may be legit and what can they do if they say, "Sorry"?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, you want to talk to your lender and explain what your hardship is. As we said, maybe it's a medical issue or it could be that you lost your job or some issue came about. Get to the sympathetic ear at the lending institution and say to them, "Can you give me a break temporarily?" Or "Give me a forbearance."

Forbearance meaning, "Can you temporarily either forego my payments or give me a smaller payment temporarily until I can get back on my feet again and then I'll start making my payment as I have before?"

Two things can happen. They can either say, "Well, we'll forgive so much of it now totally or what we'll do is we'll forgive it temporarily now and we'll add it on to the loan at the back end." In either instance, your cash flow is improved and you're in a position where you can keep the house and not lose it.

Val Zavala>> There's also another term that perhaps you can explain. Deed in lieu of payment?

Michael Eisenberg>> Right. Deed in lieu. What that's doing is, you're still losing the house basically, but you're deeding it over to the lender. By deeding it over to the lender, it means it's almost as if you're selling it to the lender. In that transaction, you're not having a negative connotation on your record report because you didn't go into foreclosure and you didn't file bankruptcy. You more or less sold the house back to the lender and that's called deed in lieu of foreclosure.

Val Zavala>> I see. So you don't have the foreclosure on your record. Does it still have the same effect as a foreclosure? You still have to move out? It's not your house anymore?

Michael Eisenberg>> It does. You're going to have to move out. You're no longer in the house. Some of the tax implications could still be there. You have to be aware of that. But most importantly, you're not going to have a negative connotation on your credit ratings.

Val Zavala>> So these are great pieces of advice, but everyone is in a very individualized situation. So what's the best thing they can do to find out what's best for them?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, the first thing I would recommend for somebody is to go see a qualified professional, a CPA, if they have a CPA or if they know of a CPA because CPAs are extremely knowledgeable about these particular topics. If it gets very, very technical and legal, then you might want to see an attorney who specializes in real estate law.

The one thing you don't want to do is you don't want to make decisions on your own because it's very complicated. You don't want to talk to the loan broker because they're not necessarily going to know all of the nuances of the tax law or of the legalities of the real estate law.

Val Zavala>> That's if you get to the foreclosure stage.

Michael Eisenberg>> Exactly, exactly. So seek out a professional.

Val Zavala>> What if you can't afford one?

Michael Eisenberg>> There are a lot of people that will work with you on a pro bono basis if you have a couple of questions and if you come in with a recommendation from another person who is a client of that professional. I'm sure that, in situations where people are facing hardships, professionals are there to help. The vast majority of professionals are willing to spend a little bit of their time helping out individuals.

Val Zavala>> Michael Eisenberg with Cal CPA, thank you very much. Really helpful advice.

Michael Eisenberg>> You're welcome. Thank you.

Val Zavala>> For help negotiating with your lender, you can contact the Association of Independent Consumer Credit Counseling Agencies at aiccca.org.

Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address:

Life and Times
4401 Sunset Blvd.
Los Angeles, California 90027

You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org.

Larry Mantle>> Welcome to FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC. Our first film this week is a remake of the 1957 western classic, "3:10 to Yuma". But instead of Glenn Ford and Van Heflin, we have Christian Bale and Russell Crowe supported as well by Peter Fonda.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> I'm joined this week by critics Jean Oppenheimer of Village Voice Media and Andy Klein of CityBeat. Jean, what did you think of "3:10 to Yuma"?

Jean Oppenheimer>> Larry, I love westerns. There are so many things about this movie that I like that I don't know where to begin (laughter). First of all, it's a story that never lags. It cuts back and forth at the beginning between the Christian Bale character and the Russell Crowe character. Then finally their stories intersect and you just continue on the one. But nothing is repeated in the film, which usually is a problem.

Here, everything that happens is different. The actors are all wonderful. I mean, Christian Bale is really one of my favorite actors and Russell Crowe does a fine job with this. He plays the perfect bad guy in that he's this real dichotomy, you know. He's not all bad inside. He's Bible-spouting and he has not a good heart exactly, but there are times where he does things you wouldn't expect. I really liked it.

Andy Klein>> Yeah, I agree with Jeannie. We get so few good westerns, so few westerns in general, and this is a terrific western. It's a remake of a film from fifty years ago which I actually saw in the theaters. I re-watched that old version which has a sort of semi-classic status. I have to say that this is one of the few cases where I think the remake is a substantial improvement.

Nothing against Glenn Ford and Van Heflin in the original, but I think Russell Crowe is a much better actor than Glenn Ford. There's a much richer performance here, plus tons of really cool action. You have to suspend disbelief on a few issues, I think, but basically this is a western like westerns are supposed to be.

Larry Mantle>> Next up, we have a hunt for a Bosnian war criminal that's being conducted in part by a discredited journalist played by Richard Gere. Terrence Howard costars with him in the film, "The Hunting Party".

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> "The Hunting Party", Andy?

Andy Klein>> You know, Larry, I wish I had a stronger reaction one way or the other to this film. I enjoyed it. I thought it was pretty good. Richard Gere plays this really burned-out case, you know, a foreign correspondent who's just seen too much violence. Some of it has a personal connection to him.

Terrence Howard is his old buddy who's now a hotshot who comes back and they go off on this expedition to try and find the world's most wanted war criminal. It moves fast. It's a lot of fun. It actually seems to have some serious intent and, at the same time, I thought it was kind of lightweight.

Gere is very good. I think he's done this kind of part a couple of times before, the burned-out guy who's searching for his soul. Howard is good in what's not really a very well developed role, plus it's got a ridiculous sub-plot about him calling his girlfriend, which is clearly there just for the trailers. It adds nothing to the film. But it's okay.

Larry Mantle>> All right. Jean?

Jean Oppenheimer>> Well, I think Andy hit the nail on the head when he said it was serious intent, but a lightweight film. I think the big problem with it really was the tone and what tone it was trying to achieve. It's not really a black comedy, something like "No Man's Land" which was just a wonderful film about the incidents in Bosnia.

It was sort of jaunty. It was sort of a comedy of errors, but because the subject matter is so serious, when they show the real newsreel footage from the war, it just doesn't quite go together. I mean, I didn't completely dislike the film. I found it entertaining enough, but quite disappointing.

Larry Mantle>> You may have thought you were familiar with the Apollo missions that culminated in not only one moon landing, but several of them. But in the film, "In the Shadow of the Moon", you really get to meet the astronauts as they tell their stories of their adventures and see remarkable NASA archival footage.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> "In the Shadow of the Moon", Jean. What did you think of this documentary?

Jean Oppenheimer>> Oh, I think it's a riveting documentary. I really do. I mean, it gets the surviving members of the Apollo missions, astronauts, and interviews them all with the exception of Neil Armstrong who is a notoriously private person. But the others come across as humble, as philosophical, humorous at times and, most of all, they feel really privileged and awed by what they've went through.

It has wonderful archival footage and, apparently, for the footage, they went back to the original cans of film that NASA had taken, so a lot of them are ones that we actually haven't seen before. I do want to say that, even though Neil Armstrong isn't present, his presence is.

Larry Mantle>> It's big in the film, isn't it?

Jean Oppenheimer>> It's big. He's talked about in the film through the whole thing and you just feel his presence the whole time.

Larry Mantle>> It's a battle between hit men in the new action movie, "Exiled". It's set on the island of Macao and directed by Johnnie To.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> "Exiled", Andy?

Andy Klein>> Larry, I loved this film. It's almost as much of a western as "3:10 to Yuma" is, even though it's set in 1998 in Macao, the Portuguese colony next to China. Director Johnnie To has clearly and deliberately made it like a western. The opening sequence is sort of a knock-off of the opening sequence of "Once Upon a Time in the West".

It involves these guys who have been friends all their lives, but now one of them is assigned to kill the other. They declare a temporary truce so that they can all get together, pull a heist, make enough money to support this guy's wife and kid after they then kill him after the heist (laughter).

It's filled with a sort of classic movie-movie tropes. It's gorgeously shot. I didn't even know the cinematographer's work. There's a shoot-out in a doctor's office in sort of slow mo, that whole Hong Kong style, that's one of the most beautifully shot things I've ever seen.

Larry Mantle>> Thanks for joining us for another FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC joined by critics Andy Klein of CityBeat and Jean Oppenheimer of Village Voice Media. Please join us next week for the next FilmWeek on Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> For a longer version of FilmWeek, tune in to KPCC public radio Friday mornings at eleven. And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. Thanks for watching. We'll see you tomorrow.

Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

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